Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in
Speaker 1: which we speak with some of the brightest minds working
Speaker 1: in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief insights
Speaker 1: officer at Illuminate and a variety contributor. Disney is embracing
Speaker 1: a super app strategy. That's what new CEO Josh Tomorrow
Speaker 1: signaled last week, sharing his vision for evolving Disney Plus
Speaker 1: into what he referred to as a quote immersive, interactive,
Speaker 1: digital centerpiece end quote that brings together everything from theme
Speaker 1: park tickets to merchandise and much more. Sounds fascinating and
Speaker 1: also the perfect home for a feature the company, up
Speaker 1: until very recently, was poised to include the ability to
Speaker 1: allow consumers to make their own videos with Disney IP
Speaker 1: from Mickey Mouse to Princess Leiah. That, however, is no
Speaker 1: longer the case, considering open AI's stunning announcement back in
Speaker 1: March that it was ending its partnership with Disney and
Speaker 1: discontinuing the Sora app that would have used the magic
Speaker 1: of AI to let fans bring more than two hundred
Speaker 1: Disney characters to life. And that leaves a question I've
Speaker 1: been asking myself ever since, with or without Disney Plus
Speaker 1: or Open AI, will we ever see realize the groundbreaking
Speaker 1: potential their deal promised to unlock. To help me sort
Speaker 1: through this, I've enlisted Jeremy Toeman, SVP of AI Innovation
Speaker 1: at JWX, the video technology platform for publishers. He is
Speaker 1: just the right person to hash this out with me
Speaker 1: because he doesn't just know AI, he's got more than
Speaker 1: thirty years of experience building media tech and convergence products
Speaker 1: at companies like Warner Brothers, CBS, and numerous startups.
Speaker 2: Thanks for talking with me, Jeremy, It's good to see Andrew.
Speaker 2: Good to see you.
Speaker 1: And let me ask you right off the bat.
Speaker 2: Were you a Sora user at all?
Speaker 3: Did?
Speaker 1: What did you think of it?
Speaker 2: What did you do with it? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I jumped on the platform because the truth is I
Speaker 4: started building an AI video startup, not in the generative space,
Speaker 4: but in the video editing side of things before Chat
Speaker 4: to BT and Etcetera launched and so ever since kind
Speaker 4: of this LLM revolution happened and jen A I became feasible,
Speaker 4: I've been wanting to play with every tool that's out there,
Speaker 4: both for personal use and to figure out business opportunities.
Speaker 4: What bets would I make, wouldn't I make?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: And and so I got a chance to play with Sora.
Speaker 4: I had a lot of fun exploring it. I'll be honest,
Speaker 4: I think sure. The craziest thing to me is how
Speaker 4: much we saw examples of like insane creativity combined with
Speaker 4: just like wrote you know, the most basic prompt ever
Speaker 4: kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, I mean I have to confess I wasn't
Speaker 1: a regular user, but I used it enough to really
Speaker 1: be entranced by the possibilities, particularly when Disney entered the picture.
Speaker 1: I thought the notion that fans could make their own
Speaker 1: short videos using characters, the notion that some of these
Speaker 1: videos would eventually find a place on Disney Plus really interesting,
Speaker 1: and if done right, I thought it could open up
Speaker 1: a whole new revenue stream. But just the same I
Speaker 1: also couldn't get my head around exactly how this would
Speaker 1: possibly work, given how protective Disney is of its IP.
Speaker 1: Did any of these things strike you as well? Oh?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'll be honest.
Speaker 4: Even Disney's a particular example because they are so they
Speaker 4: are so protective of their IP. But the truth is,
Speaker 4: you could pick almost any IP and start scratching your
Speaker 4: head pretty quickly at the what if we let anybody
Speaker 4: do anything with this?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: And you see some area, some creators, etc. Where fanfic
Speaker 4: et cetera is is sort of part. It's like the
Speaker 4: de regard. It's part of the culture.
Speaker 2: And there are other.
Speaker 4: Areas where it's like, ooh, that would make me really
Speaker 4: uncomfortable to see something weird happen here. You know, it
Speaker 4: is very reminiscent of me in the mid nineties working
Speaker 4: at a local video store that had the beaded curtain
Speaker 4: adult room and that people would every now and then
Speaker 4: have the parody versions of mainstream movies. So to me,
Speaker 4: it was like that was the first thing that jumped
Speaker 4: in my head, is all of those crazy titles coming
Speaker 4: to life. And I don't think most IP holders really
Speaker 4: want to see that.
Speaker 1: No, yes, I can only imagine what certain minds would
Speaker 1: do to Mickey Mouse and other characters of great purity.
Speaker 1: But I always figured what we would see is Disney
Speaker 1: would put I do hate to use the word restrictive,
Speaker 1: because I'm sympathetic to where they're coming from, but to me,
Speaker 1: it was like they would sort of maybe you know,
Speaker 1: strangle the baby and the crib, so to speak. Put
Speaker 1: too much controls on it, and then it's like, well,
Speaker 1: will anyone want to use this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're dead on right, And that's where
Speaker 4: the tricky nuance comes in.
Speaker 2: One thing I noticed using sora is it was very quick.
Speaker 4: It was very very quick to see users in the
Speaker 4: comment section just lamb basing open AI for any restrictions.
Speaker 4: It was like the fact that you couldn't show I
Speaker 4: don't know, Mickey Mouse murdering somebody or some ridiculous thing, right.
Speaker 4: The fact that you weren't allowed to show that was
Speaker 4: offending people from day one, Like there was over all
Speaker 4: across the comment section, and people were actually making videos
Speaker 4: of Sam Altman like deliberately like restricting content creation, etc.
Speaker 4: So I can only imagine if they actually had been
Speaker 4: given the floodgate to hey, do something cool with iron
Speaker 4: Man or or whoever, but not too cool. These are
Speaker 4: your you know, you you can have iron Man, you know,
Speaker 4: fight bad guys, but you cannot have iron Man fight
Speaker 4: say Mickey Mouse or something like. I don't know, I
Speaker 4: don't know where the rules would be. Could you make
Speaker 4: it like like the like the punch Out. Could you
Speaker 4: make it like so comedic that it that it goes
Speaker 4: into satire and it's actually kind of funny. Or are
Speaker 4: you're still going to be stepping onlines and it's a
Speaker 4: it's a huge question.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so I thought where this was going to go
Speaker 1: was that the version of Sora that we saw, which
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to give.
Speaker 2: A short shrift.
Speaker 1: I thought there was a lot to commend for sort
Speaker 1: of a first wave product could subsist.
Speaker 2: But just deprived.
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you, do you feel that there
Speaker 1: was a version of Sora that could have worked just
Speaker 1: without any actual I p except for brave souls like
Speaker 1: mister Altman who was willing to put his own face
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 4: I saw works of creativity people were doing, like fantasy
Speaker 4: and sci fi like I saw inventive ships, space stuff
Speaker 4: and stars and cosmic patterns. And then I saw other
Speaker 4: things like people bringing like food to life, and we've
Speaker 4: actually seen those, like those Pixar style foody things. I
Speaker 4: think they've gotten a little too Pixar style to be canon.
Speaker 4: But I definitely saw people doing creative things. I also
Speaker 4: saw creative use of sort of the retro cams, like
Speaker 4: people opening kids of the Christmas tree in the seventies
Speaker 4: kind of style era things people doing like clever takes
Speaker 4: on a ring, security camera catching like a unicorn running
Speaker 4: by and stuff like that. But I you know those
Speaker 4: ones took real effort, and so I think this also
Speaker 4: goes into this whole what's wrong slash right about Generator
Speaker 4: TODAYI is that low effort content is quickly going into
Speaker 4: our slop bucket, which we which I don't think it's
Speaker 4: even bucket sized anymore. It's now like a slop ocean
Speaker 4: of sorts. But those who are using the tools with
Speaker 4: true creativity and like figuring out how do I make
Speaker 4: my skeleton creature thing haunt the night and with eerie
Speaker 4: music like, I love seeing some of that stuff. So
Speaker 4: I hope we aren't in the baby with the bathwater
Speaker 4: stage of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, we know that open Ai made the
Speaker 1: decision to kill to kill Sora for reasons. It probably
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with what was going on on
Speaker 1: the platform itself. They had to be focused on that IPO.
Speaker 1: They are cost issues, no question. But I guess the
Speaker 1: disappearance of Sore from the marketplace makes me wonder whether
Speaker 1: do you think that there is a vacuum that can
Speaker 1: be filled or maybe maybe you and I are being
Speaker 1: too generous here and it's withdrawal is a testament to
Speaker 1: the reality that maybe there was no mark that Sora
Speaker 1: made and it just wasn't really a product.
Speaker 4: I don't know that I'm going to agree with that one.
Speaker 4: I think there's something, there's a there there. I don't
Speaker 4: yet know what it is. I look at the analogy,
Speaker 4: as you know, we once drew on caves with sticks
Speaker 4: that we that were burnt, and that was the beginning
Speaker 4: of drawing, right, and there was a time where crayons
Speaker 4: were new technology. And then if we fast forward to
Speaker 4: the nineties, a little tool called render Man by of
Speaker 4: course Pixar changed the game yet again. And nowadays when
Speaker 4: we look at some of the movies, whether it's did
Speaker 4: you ever see Kubo in the Two Strings?
Speaker 2: I believe it was called I've heard of it, but
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a style of animation I'd never seen before.
Speaker 4: Gorgeous requires computers to make it all work. So I
Speaker 4: do think that the notion that a creative person could
Speaker 4: use AI to generate the thing they want to see,
Speaker 4: it's sort of the latest version of these tools. Right,
Speaker 4: we're moving from a person has to learn and had
Speaker 4: to do three D rendering and modeling and etc.
Speaker 2: To prompt your way there.
Speaker 4: The problem with all these things is by taking out
Speaker 4: both the guardrails as well as sort of the work
Speaker 4: to be done. You know, maybe it's we made it
Speaker 4: too cheap, right. Maybe you know my daughter is studying
Speaker 4: design at Rizdy and she has to go buy art supplies,
Speaker 4: and so if she's going to go buy some paint,
Speaker 4: she has to decide is this like for the final
Speaker 4: project or am I just sort of sketching around? And
Speaker 4: if I'm just sketching around, what kind of texture do
Speaker 4: I want? And things like that. So I wonder if
Speaker 4: we need certain different kinds of tools and instruments that
Speaker 4: work with the creators to let them explore interesting stuff.
Speaker 4: I do think if I had to make the choice
Speaker 4: of there's no more slop, but there's also no more generative,
Speaker 4: I think I might make that choice, at least in
Speaker 4: the today of decisions. I might regret saying that one day,
Speaker 4: but I think we'd rather see high caliber put that's
Speaker 4: not being doubted right Like now, every video someone sends
Speaker 4: me of like Cat's doing weird things at night. The
Speaker 4: first comment is ai ai ai, and you know maybe
Speaker 4: it was.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when you when you use the example
Speaker 1: of your daughter, I do wonder whether maybe the version
Speaker 1: of Sora that is meant to be and one that
Speaker 1: is inclusive of IP is something that is more sort
Speaker 1: of like a professional class product that people would pay
Speaker 1: for and not what the Sora we knew meant to be,
Speaker 1: which was throw the doors open, let everyone do what
Speaker 1: they want for free. What do you think of that.
Speaker 4: We should be experimenting with that? I think the missing
Speaker 4: part of it all, and this goes to where slop
Speaker 4: is coming from, is the notion of curation. Right, slop
Speaker 4: works because it's profitable, just the same for the slopper.
Speaker 4: I guess it's sort of like spam.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: My kids asked me why, well, why do we get
Speaker 4: like why spam? And I'm like, well, because if you
Speaker 4: send the same thing to ten million people and one
Speaker 4: of them clicks.
Speaker 2: It was a prophet, that's the answer. Right.
Speaker 4: The same is good is true in slop the first
Speaker 4: person too. And if you sell you we did the video.
Speaker 4: There's a bunch of these styles now where someone will
Speaker 4: run around from sort of room to room taking a
Speaker 4: selfie with like yeah, yeah, like the first person who
Speaker 4: did that. It's creative, it's interesting. It's like the first
Speaker 4: all white painting. I don't remember what that's called that,
Speaker 4: or the banana duct tape to the wall. But if
Speaker 4: you come into my house and I just go duct
Speaker 4: tape a bunch of fruit to the wall, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm sort of doing a different version of the slop
Speaker 4: And I would argue that the same thing's true digitally.
Speaker 4: So as long as we sort of can say, well,
Speaker 4: slop goes here, quality stuff goes here, creators go there.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: If there's a combination of like a Patreon and a
Speaker 4: Sora where you know there's an incentive in place to
Speaker 4: not make more slop, that's a probably a good thing.
Speaker 4: And at the same time, I don't want to overly
Speaker 4: burn and artists who are trying to create. So it's
Speaker 4: like Facebook said, it's complicated.
Speaker 1: Sure, well, you know, I think the when you're describing
Speaker 1: it that way, it doesn't even sound all that different
Speaker 1: than say a YouTube, where there are some very small
Speaker 1: percentage that are the creators and the rest are basically
Speaker 1: the audience. I'm probably oversimplifying it, though.
Speaker 4: You're dead on right, Like, there's been this historic ratio
Speaker 4: of one percent create, one to two percent create, eight
Speaker 4: to nine percent engage that's some form of commenting, re sharing,
Speaker 4: doing something, and then about ninety percent just consume and
Speaker 4: lurk and do very little. And that's been true since
Speaker 4: I wrote my first blog post twenty something years ago.
Speaker 2: Is that that's those are the ratios.
Speaker 4: And when I was looking at Sora engagement, one of
Speaker 4: the things I noticed is commenting was really low, right,
Speaker 4: So my hunch is what was going wrong sort of
Speaker 4: the wrong pyramid of sorts was being formed. Is that
Speaker 4: way too many people creating lots of audience and not
Speaker 4: of that, not a lot of that true deep engagement
Speaker 4: or like like I would follow people who I thought
Speaker 4: made cool stuff, but then that might have been the
Speaker 4: only thing they ever did on sore and maybe they
Speaker 4: used up all their credits or I don't know what happened, right,
Speaker 4: So I think maybe we need and by need, I
Speaker 4: wonder what will be the system that evolves into that, right,
Speaker 4: like YouTube could have a YouTube.
Speaker 2: AI only zone.
Speaker 4: I think I think this is one suggestion I make
Speaker 4: is that you know, much like I remember being in
Speaker 4: the days where you go to a restaurant or an airplane,
Speaker 4: there'd be a cigarette section that did its job fairly well.
Speaker 4: I wonder if YouTube probably has the right strength of
Speaker 4: brand to pull off a AI stuffs that over here if
Speaker 4: you want to, it's all over here. Enjoy, here's AI remixes,
Speaker 4: here's AI real life things, here's AI animations here, et cetera.
Speaker 4: That could probably work, and then let people make their choices.
Speaker 4: And let's because we do need people to have time
Speaker 4: with all this media to figure out what we do
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I think you're onto something there. I think that,
Speaker 1: you know, especially when we put this in the in
Speaker 1: the context of like a Disney plus and where this
Speaker 1: could have lived. I don't think the way SOA was
Speaker 1: was there is just one and only functionality that exists,
Speaker 1: and that is the raison to etra of the entire platform,
Speaker 1: when in fact it probably should be one of a
Speaker 1: number of things, and that's how it perhaps could have
Speaker 1: worked on a on a Disney or YouTube as you
Speaker 1: put it. I mean, to some degree, I think what
Speaker 1: we're talking about here is the classic quibi mistake, where
Speaker 1: you know quibis we've got to that point of the podcast.
Speaker 1: We must mention Quibi where you know, maybe Quibi if
Speaker 1: if the content was good, and I know that's a
Speaker 1: debate and of itself. If the content was good, there
Speaker 1: would have been a business there. If it wasn't just
Speaker 1: that content, if it existed along the side of other things.
Speaker 2: I fully agree.
Speaker 4: I mean it, look, it's hard to argue, especially at
Speaker 4: this stage of the evolution of the media, that we actually
Speaker 4: needed Quiby as its own sort of bespoke app If
Speaker 4: Quibi had instead simply been like a fast network and
Speaker 4: they had had microdramas on TikTok, which are obviously now
Speaker 4: trending and doing very well, and had the fire TV
Speaker 4: had a channel there like they didn't have to do
Speaker 4: like the rotating tech and all these other things. Those
Speaker 4: weren't necessary, right If they had just gotten the content
Speaker 4: mixed together, that could have been really interesting.
Speaker 2: But to your point, this.
Speaker 4: Is these sort of a siloed, monolithic kind of approaches.
Speaker 4: I wonder if Sora would have been better off if
Speaker 4: they had hand picked users, gone to places like DV
Speaker 4: and tard and read it and find people who are
Speaker 4: off creating things in their own time, and and welcome
Speaker 4: them in as a new tool to explore and help
Speaker 4: us get it right right. I think there's a there
Speaker 4: is an opportunity here, but it takes a lot of thoughtfulness.
Speaker 4: It's not a mass blast approach. The notion of guardrails
Speaker 4: and some usage limitation isn't a bad thing necessarily, right,
Speaker 4: But when you then tell the whole world they can't
Speaker 4: have Superman beating up Minnie Mouse being watched by Bell
Speaker 4: from you to to be, you can't have that combo
Speaker 4: that that just consumer or end users don't want to
Speaker 4: deal with that.
Speaker 2: The stickiness there.
Speaker 4: At a company I was want one of the media
Speaker 4: companies I once worked at, we had been envisioning building
Speaker 4: a tool that would let a person come into a
Speaker 4: special office we had and basically deep fake themselves into
Speaker 4: one of our IP properties. I think that's fun. I
Speaker 4: think being able to walk a ready again. I'll just
Speaker 4: use the same example like if I can make me
Speaker 4: look be the Superman in the actual Superman movie and
Speaker 4: fighting off the beasts or whatever, and it actually looks
Speaker 4: cool and I can get that as a thirty second
Speaker 4: clip to share with my kids, that's fun.
Speaker 2: You know, that feels like fun?
Speaker 4: Use of this technology right, like photo booth style, you know.
Speaker 1: But totally and by the way, I mean, that was
Speaker 1: what SOA was to some degree, you had the ability
Speaker 1: to inject yourself into these videos. I first of all,
Speaker 1: let me ask you, did you do that? Did you
Speaker 1: put yourself into any of it?
Speaker 4: I refuse to, Yeah, I refuse to put up my
Speaker 4: own I assume the internet has all my personal info
Speaker 4: to begin with already. I just felt like the three
Speaker 4: D rendering of my face might be the last thing
Speaker 4: I don't want to give up to a company that
Speaker 4: has not yet announced any form of what motivates them,
Speaker 4: or their their guidelines or their own guardrails, which seem
Speaker 4: to be I felt like I could skip that one.
Speaker 2: But you did it. Huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're far smarter and more sensible than
Speaker 1: I am. I just at first I did not for
Speaker 1: the same reasons that you did. And then I just
Speaker 1: broke down because I was so entranced by the thought of,
Speaker 1: well would I look like doing this, and what would
Speaker 1: I look like that, you know, precautions be damned. Luckily,
Speaker 1: at least at this point, I don't think anyone is
Speaker 1: having their way with my likeness in an inappropriate way.
Speaker 1: But I do think this is where this technology goes.
Speaker 1: That the deep thinking yourself into interactions with characters is
Speaker 1: uniquely powerful.
Speaker 4: Totally agreed, like, why how far are we from like
Speaker 4: someone making a choose your own adventure game that is
Speaker 4: all video, it's all generative, it's all using just upload
Speaker 4: a couple of things here and there, and now you're
Speaker 4: in this you're looking for the sacred idol on the
Speaker 4: temple or whatever other thing. I'm curious, Andrew, how was you?
Speaker 4: How were the videos you were able to make with
Speaker 4: yourself in them?
Speaker 1: It was fascinating. They ran the gamut. Some of them
Speaker 1: were like, Okay, I don't look like that, so what's
Speaker 1: going on here?
Speaker 2: And then there were.
Speaker 1: Others where I was like, oh my god, this is
Speaker 1: eerie and look, I never look. You make a video,
Speaker 1: you publish it on the platform, anyone could see it.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't like I was deliberately trying to shine
Speaker 1: a light on it. I was literally just like making
Speaker 1: the link, sending it to some friends and family and
Speaker 1: they got a good laugh out of it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a version of maybe I wouldn't be laughing if
Speaker 1: it got into the wrong hand.
Speaker 4: It's a fun time. I mean, I love seeing all
Speaker 4: this tech coming out. There are other platforms people can
Speaker 4: play with, by the way, So if you're listening and
Speaker 4: you still want to be playing with AI Video, which
Speaker 4: I don't blame you, Google Video's really interesting and powerful.
Speaker 4: You can do a lot of stuff these days now
Speaker 4: with Claw and Canva too, by the way, Canva and
Speaker 4: even the Adobe has some pretty good video generation stuff.
Speaker 4: So definitely go play around a little and see what
Speaker 4: do you think of it. How do we embrace how
Speaker 4: do we get a new generation of brad Birds and
Speaker 4: other picks? And the picks are creatives, so that we're
Speaker 4: just making whether it's infotainment, entertainment, whatever, the thing is
Speaker 4: that we're giving people more to enjoy as opposed to
Speaker 4: things that they instantly reject, right I maybe it was
Speaker 4: an uncanny Valley thing, you know. I don't know yet,
Speaker 4: it's too soon to tell.
Speaker 1: That brings me back to sort of the very premise
Speaker 1: of this conversation, which is I cannot help wondering whether
Speaker 1: the dissolution of Disney and Open Ai and Sora, there's
Speaker 1: still a vacuum in this marketplace and maybe some of
Speaker 1: the very players you just mentioned are going to walk
Speaker 1: into it. And they're gonna do so hand in hand
Speaker 1: with If not Disney, maybe it's Powa Amount, maybe it's
Speaker 1: lions Gate. What do you think?
Speaker 4: One thing I definitely believe is that I think if
Speaker 4: so proved Soura as an experiment proved something other than
Speaker 4: the We don't want slop.
Speaker 2: We want curation, all the stuff about what makes content good.
Speaker 4: I also wonder if we have become if we are
Speaker 4: just sort of done with new platforms to be on right, Like,
Speaker 4: would people have taken more to SOA if it was
Speaker 4: embedded inside say a TikTok right or or an HBO
Speaker 4: Max or a Powerment or any of these apps. And
Speaker 4: I don't know, right it does seem like a centralized
Speaker 4: app for slop is not a good idea, right, But
Speaker 4: do we want it distribute it everywhere? Do we want
Speaker 4: each brand to let their audiences play with their content
Speaker 4: in a way like Disney Plus you made a good example.
Speaker 4: I see it on all of the platforms now. Is
Speaker 4: that it's aligning all of my things together, right, which
Speaker 4: is fun and good and helpful. By the way, I'd
Speaker 4: love to get report updates on just when my hockey
Speaker 4: team's playing. I don't need all the rest. I don't
Speaker 4: know if it needs a dedicated home. I think that's
Speaker 4: an The big question in the mix is is it
Speaker 4: sort of more like email where you just you just
Speaker 4: have a client of You can use Gmail, hot Mail, AOL,
Speaker 4: if your old school web, you can use lots of
Speaker 4: different apps to do it all. You can have an
Speaker 4: iCloud account, you know. Is so is genet Video almost
Speaker 4: more like a protocol, like just something that's just there
Speaker 4: for all the stuff? Or does it need dedicated places?
Speaker 4: And that's again too soon to tell.
Speaker 1: I think yeah, I mean I'm wondering though you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about this notion about it can't be sort
Speaker 1: of the sole reason for putting a platform out there
Speaker 1: needs to be embedded out there. But are there other
Speaker 1: things that you think a media company or a hyper
Speaker 1: scaler may want to experiment with in terms of a
Speaker 1: different approach than what little we knew about what Disney
Speaker 1: and open AI we're going to do.
Speaker 4: Oh I think at least one of them should play
Speaker 4: with things like deep baking and remixing and doing it
Speaker 4: maybe in an isolated maybe in a place where you
Speaker 4: can't you know, it's in some kind of walled garden
Speaker 4: or gated community where there are some controls in place.
Speaker 4: And I think this is also a key thing, is
Speaker 4: somehow we need to get the message to the users that, like,
Speaker 4: like people worked hard to create IP, respecting IP.
Speaker 2: Matters, don't blow it all up.
Speaker 4: Use it in a way that's that's healthy in advancing
Speaker 4: the medium, not sort of pillaging from it. And I
Speaker 4: do think there's a line in there that really does matter.
Speaker 4: But I think to your point, like letting the let's
Speaker 4: see the new Mandalorian movies coming out. We know that
Speaker 4: the Mandalorian was entirely done with new digital sets and
Speaker 4: et cetera, seems like an opportune place for like a
Speaker 4: whether it's maybe it's a game, right, maybe we're using
Speaker 4: generative stuff inside gaming. I think about some of those
Speaker 4: games that came out a few years ago, was called Spawn.
Speaker 4: I believe it was called where you can sort of
Speaker 4: make your own creature and every creature was perfectly unique
Speaker 4: in some way. Like those are kind of neat things
Speaker 4: to experiment with. What what does general video bring to that?
Speaker 4: So maybe we don't need an app that we can
Speaker 4: just prompt have a unicorn run by my ring camera,
Speaker 4: but we do need general video to get woven inside
Speaker 4: other tools and technologies we're using all the time.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting suggestion. I hadn't even thought about it
Speaker 1: in the context of gaming, But who's to say that
Speaker 1: gaming isn't the place where this might take off as
Speaker 1: opposed to we've been talking about just video all along,
Speaker 1: and I think there's something to that.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you another area that I think is interesting,
Speaker 4: like what about being able to use general video for yourself,
Speaker 4: like for a personal training app, for style apps, for
Speaker 4: those haircutting apps, right, or use generat video to project
Speaker 4: what a recipe's going to look like. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of things we could do where the tech itself brings
Speaker 4: value along the journey. Maybe it's just a sort of again,
Speaker 4: not a destination app, but an ingredient of one.
Speaker 1: But another good point maybe that these videos are less random,
Speaker 1: mindless entertainment but actually very utilitarian, very specific neat use
Speaker 1: cases like hey, I want to know I'm going to
Speaker 1: look like with this haircut or with these clothes on,
Speaker 1: And I just go back to there was something in
Speaker 1: Sora that entranced me to the point where I was like,
Speaker 1: this can't be the end point just because AI doesn't
Speaker 1: want to do it this way. But I mean, have
Speaker 1: you ruled out open AI from this? Do you think
Speaker 1: they're the IPO version of them means where they're not
Speaker 1: going to play in this playground Again.
Speaker 4: Well, again, we don't know all the reasons why a
Speaker 4: shutdown happen, So if anything had to do with things
Speaker 4: like copyright and lawsuit my hunches, we don't see it.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 4: If, on the other hand, it was maybe the Apples
Speaker 4: was costing more than it was making, which is probable
Speaker 4: just based on how much you could do for free,
Speaker 4: including on the consumption side, So maybe it was a
Speaker 4: cost structure. Maybe it was a conservative move in advance.
Speaker 4: They shut down a few other things in a similar timeframe,
Speaker 4: but they did it in a way where it didn't
Speaker 4: seem like, oh, we're just killing all these other projects.
Speaker 4: But reality is, in like forty five days, they killed
Speaker 4: at least five things that they were that they had announced.
Speaker 4: So maybe it was just sort of tightening the ship
Speaker 4: up in advance of IPOs et cetera. I read rumors
Speaker 4: like they have too many products, they need to be
Speaker 4: more focused. If there were a lot of things we
Speaker 4: don't really know, that could be the thing. Personally, my
Speaker 4: gut talks a bit, but sits in the copyright slash costs.
Speaker 4: You know, ven diagram of that is terrible.
Speaker 1: Sure, although you know, we'll never really know what Disney
Speaker 1: thought of, what little work went into the partnership that
Speaker 1: they had. Part of me does wonder when you bring
Speaker 1: up copyright whether lawyers were whisp we're in in Josh
Speaker 1: Tomorrow's ear like, there's no version of this that is
Speaker 1: going to not get us into legal hot water. But
Speaker 1: we'll never know.
Speaker 4: We have the Internet, so every bit of me assumes
Speaker 4: that that no matter what rules are put in, somebody
Speaker 4: would be on the crusade to do something with Mickey
Speaker 4: and Minnie like it. Just it's too obvious, you know
Speaker 4: what I mean? And like and if there's one thing
Speaker 4: I've ever learned is that no matter how many locks
Speaker 4: you put in place, there are keys. Right, So somebody
Speaker 4: had figured out that video would leak and that would
Speaker 4: be a day of reckoning, per se.
Speaker 1: No truer words have been spoken about the nature of
Speaker 1: the Internet. Jeremy, thank you very much for talking to
Speaker 1: me through this. Perhaps we'll have another conversation at some point,
Speaker 1: not in the distant future, where we are seeing what
Speaker 1: this next iteration is, and we'll be able to assess
Speaker 1: whether this is a move in the right direction for
Speaker 1: a technology that I think it's just too interesting to
Speaker 1: just vanish.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 4: See, I'm very curious to see how many things we
Speaker 4: were wrong about. No later than thirty days from today.
Speaker 4: That's at the pace this world's moving. I have a
Speaker 4: hunch we'll know a lot more. You know, any rolling
Speaker 4: thirty day.
Speaker 2: Basis absolutely okay.
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