WEBVTT - LISTEN: Did OpenAI Kill What Disney's 'Super App' Needs Most? 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.880 Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.079 which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.200 in the media business today. I'm Andrew Wallenstein, chief insights 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:25.680 officer at Illuminate and a variety contributor. Disney is embracing 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.880 a super app strategy. That's what new CEO Josh Tomorrow 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.560 signaled last week, sharing his vision for evolving Disney Plus 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.479 into what he referred to as a quote immersive, interactive, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.920 digital centerpiece end quote that brings together everything from theme 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:46.559 park tickets to merchandise and much more. Sounds fascinating and 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.640 also the perfect home for a feature the company, up 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.680 until very recently, was poised to include the ability to 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.040 allow consumers to make their own videos with Disney IP 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:01.639 from Mickey Mouse to Princess Leiah. That, however, is no 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.560 longer the case, considering open AI's stunning announcement back in 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.440 March that it was ending its partnership with Disney and 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.119 discontinuing the Sora app that would have used the magic 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.880 of AI to let fans bring more than two hundred 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:18.800 Disney characters to life. And that leaves a question I've 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.600 been asking myself ever since, with or without Disney Plus 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:27.240 or Open AI, will we ever see realize the groundbreaking 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.479 potential their deal promised to unlock. To help me sort 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:35.840 through this, I've enlisted Jeremy Toeman, SVP of AI Innovation 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.760 at JWX, the video technology platform for publishers. He is 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.480 just the right person to hash this out with me 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.360 because he doesn't just know AI, he's got more than 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.280 thirty years of experience building media tech and convergence products 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:59.440 at companies like Warner Brothers, CBS, and numerous startups. 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.560 Thanks for talking with me, Jeremy, It's good to see Andrew. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:05.080 Good to see you. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.160 And let me ask you right off the bat. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.160 Were you a Sora user at all? 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:09.400 Did? 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:10.440 What did you think of it? 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.360 What did you do with it? Yeah? 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.799 I jumped on the platform because the truth is I 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.080 started building an AI video startup, not in the generative space, 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:25.079 but in the video editing side of things before Chat 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.040 to BT and Etcetera launched and so ever since kind 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.720 of this LLM revolution happened and jen A I became feasible, 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.880 I've been wanting to play with every tool that's out there, 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.520 both for personal use and to figure out business opportunities. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.079 What bets would I make, wouldn't I make? 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:42.400 You know? 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.920 And and so I got a chance to play with Sora. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.960 I had a lot of fun exploring it. I'll be honest, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.919 I think sure. The craziest thing to me is how 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.600 much we saw examples of like insane creativity combined with 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.919 just like wrote you know, the most basic prompt ever 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:04.560 kind of thing. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:07.760 Sure, sure, I mean I have to confess I wasn't 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.200 a regular user, but I used it enough to really 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.760 be entranced by the possibilities, particularly when Disney entered the picture. 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.440 I thought the notion that fans could make their own 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.480 short videos using characters, the notion that some of these 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.520 videos would eventually find a place on Disney Plus really interesting, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:26.760 and if done right, I thought it could open up 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.800 a whole new revenue stream. But just the same I 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:32.680 also couldn't get my head around exactly how this would 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.880 possibly work, given how protective Disney is of its IP. 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.920 Did any of these things strike you as well? Oh? 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.120 Absolutely, I'll be honest. 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:46.560 Even Disney's a particular example because they are so they 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.040 are so protective of their IP. But the truth is, 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.600 you could pick almost any IP and start scratching your 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.400 head pretty quickly at the what if we let anybody 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:57.480 do anything with this? 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:58.240 Right? 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.840 And you see some area, some creators, etc. Where fanfic 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:05.440 et cetera is is sort of part. It's like the 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.480 de regard. It's part of the culture. 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:08.680 And there are other. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.640 Areas where it's like, ooh, that would make me really 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.760 uncomfortable to see something weird happen here. You know, it 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.040 is very reminiscent of me in the mid nineties working 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.520 at a local video store that had the beaded curtain 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.960 adult room and that people would every now and then 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:30.279 have the parody versions of mainstream movies. So to me, 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:31.960 it was like that was the first thing that jumped 0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:35.240 in my head, is all of those crazy titles coming 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.799 to life. And I don't think most IP holders really 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:39.520 want to see that. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.039 No, yes, I can only imagine what certain minds would 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.479 do to Mickey Mouse and other characters of great purity. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.600 But I always figured what we would see is Disney 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.560 would put I do hate to use the word restrictive, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.359 because I'm sympathetic to where they're coming from, but to me, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:01.160 it was like they would sort of maybe you know, 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.680 strangle the baby and the crib, so to speak. Put 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.680 too much controls on it, and then it's like, well, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:08.480 will anyone want to use this? 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.039 Yeah, I think you're dead on right, And that's where 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:13.440 the tricky nuance comes in. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.679 One thing I noticed using sora is it was very quick. 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.680 It was very very quick to see users in the 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:25.680 comment section just lamb basing open AI for any restrictions. 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.880 It was like the fact that you couldn't show I 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.080 don't know, Mickey Mouse murdering somebody or some ridiculous thing, right. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.640 The fact that you weren't allowed to show that was 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:40.599 offending people from day one, Like there was over all 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.320 across the comment section, and people were actually making videos 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:51.600 of Sam Altman like deliberately like restricting content creation, etc. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.480 So I can only imagine if they actually had been 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.400 given the floodgate to hey, do something cool with iron 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.160 Man or or whoever, but not too cool. These are 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.760 your you know, you you can have iron Man, you know, 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.919 fight bad guys, but you cannot have iron Man fight 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.560 say Mickey Mouse or something like. I don't know, I 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:14.839 don't know where the rules would be. Could you make 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.560 it like like the like the punch Out. Could you 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.600 make it like so comedic that it that it goes 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.600 into satire and it's actually kind of funny. Or are 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.359 you're still going to be stepping onlines and it's a 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:27.760 it's a huge question. 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:28.719 Yeah. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.640 And so I thought where this was going to go 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.920 was that the version of Sora that we saw, which 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:37.240 I don't want to I don't want to give. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:37.880 A short shrift. 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.360 I thought there was a lot to commend for sort 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.080 of a first wave product could subsist. 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.360 But just deprived. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.600 Well, let me ask you, do you feel that there 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.200 was a version of Sora that could have worked just 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.560 without any actual I p except for brave souls like 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.920 mister Altman who was willing to put his own face 0:06:58.960 --> 0:06:59.440 out there. 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.120 I saw works of creativity people were doing, like fantasy 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.800 and sci fi like I saw inventive ships, space stuff 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:12.680 and stars and cosmic patterns. And then I saw other 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.040 things like people bringing like food to life, and we've 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.800 actually seen those, like those Pixar style foody things. I 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:22.280 think they've gotten a little too Pixar style to be canon. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.679 But I definitely saw people doing creative things. I also 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.920 saw creative use of sort of the retro cams, like 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:34.160 people opening kids of the Christmas tree in the seventies 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.280 kind of style era things people doing like clever takes 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:42.880 on a ring, security camera catching like a unicorn running 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.560 by and stuff like that. But I you know those 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.640 ones took real effort, and so I think this also 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:54.440 goes into this whole what's wrong slash right about Generator 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.840 TODAYI is that low effort content is quickly going into 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.880 our slop bucket, which we which I don't think it's 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.920 even bucket sized anymore. It's now like a slop ocean 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.800 of sorts. But those who are using the tools with 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.320 true creativity and like figuring out how do I make 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.640 my skeleton creature thing haunt the night and with eerie 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.400 music like, I love seeing some of that stuff. So 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.280 I hope we aren't in the baby with the bathwater 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:23.760 stage of things. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:28.080 I mean, look, we know that open Ai made the 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:33.160 decision to kill to kill Sora for reasons. It probably 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.079 had nothing to do with what was going on on 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.320 the platform itself. They had to be focused on that IPO. 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.680 They are cost issues, no question. But I guess the 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:46.440 disappearance of Sore from the marketplace makes me wonder whether 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.439 do you think that there is a vacuum that can 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.200 be filled or maybe maybe you and I are being 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.880 too generous here and it's withdrawal is a testament to 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.120 the reality that maybe there was no mark that Sora 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:01.400 made and it just wasn't really a product. 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.959 I don't know that I'm going to agree with that one. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.920 I think there's something, there's a there there. I don't 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.359 yet know what it is. I look at the analogy, 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.720 as you know, we once drew on caves with sticks 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.000 that we that were burnt, and that was the beginning 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.520 of drawing, right, and there was a time where crayons 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.800 were new technology. And then if we fast forward to 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.760 the nineties, a little tool called render Man by of 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.319 course Pixar changed the game yet again. And nowadays when 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.280 we look at some of the movies, whether it's did 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.560 you ever see Kubo in the Two Strings? 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.160 I believe it was called I've heard of it, but 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:36.920 I haven't seen it. 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.720 Yeah, it was a style of animation I'd never seen before. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:44.560 Gorgeous requires computers to make it all work. So I 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:49.520 do think that the notion that a creative person could 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.880 use AI to generate the thing they want to see, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.360 it's sort of the latest version of these tools. Right, 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.280 we're moving from a person has to learn and had 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.040 to do three D rendering and modeling and etc. 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:03.880 To prompt your way there. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:06.880 The problem with all these things is by taking out 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.440 both the guardrails as well as sort of the work 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.840 to be done. You know, maybe it's we made it 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.559 too cheap, right. Maybe you know my daughter is studying 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.119 design at Rizdy and she has to go buy art supplies, 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.800 and so if she's going to go buy some paint, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:26.360 she has to decide is this like for the final 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.320 project or am I just sort of sketching around? And 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.360 if I'm just sketching around, what kind of texture do 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:34.600 I want? And things like that. So I wonder if 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.160 we need certain different kinds of tools and instruments that 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.120 work with the creators to let them explore interesting stuff. 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.960 I do think if I had to make the choice 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.360 of there's no more slop, but there's also no more generative, 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.080 I think I might make that choice, at least in 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.520 the today of decisions. I might regret saying that one day, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:00.440 but I think we'd rather see high caliber put that's 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.280 not being doubted right Like now, every video someone sends 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.800 me of like Cat's doing weird things at night. The 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:11.040 first comment is ai ai ai, and you know maybe 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:11.520 it was. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:12.079 I don't know. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.480 Yeah, I mean when you when you use the example 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.960 of your daughter, I do wonder whether maybe the version 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.120 of Sora that is meant to be and one that 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.400 is inclusive of IP is something that is more sort 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:30.360 of like a professional class product that people would pay 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.080 for and not what the Sora we knew meant to be, 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.679 which was throw the doors open, let everyone do what 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.000 they want for free. What do you think of that. 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:43.400 We should be experimenting with that? I think the missing 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.520 part of it all, and this goes to where slop 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.320 is coming from, is the notion of curation. Right, slop 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.840 works because it's profitable, just the same for the slopper. 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.800 I guess it's sort of like spam. 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:57.160 You know. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.439 My kids asked me why, well, why do we get 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.520 like why spam? And I'm like, well, because if you 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.080 send the same thing to ten million people and one 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:06.000 of them clicks. 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.200 It was a prophet, that's the answer. Right. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.160 The same is good is true in slop the first 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.040 person too. And if you sell you we did the video. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.320 There's a bunch of these styles now where someone will 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.040 run around from sort of room to room taking a 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.640 selfie with like yeah, yeah, like the first person who 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.120 did that. It's creative, it's interesting. It's like the first 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.960 all white painting. I don't remember what that's called that, 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.520 or the banana duct tape to the wall. But if 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.120 you come into my house and I just go duct 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.560 tape a bunch of fruit to the wall, you know, 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.960 I'm sort of doing a different version of the slop 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.160 And I would argue that the same thing's true digitally. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.480 So as long as we sort of can say, well, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.440 slop goes here, quality stuff goes here, creators go there. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:49.000 Right. 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.800 If there's a combination of like a Patreon and a 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.599 Sora where you know there's an incentive in place to 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:01.200 not make more slop, that's a probably a good thing. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.120 And at the same time, I don't want to overly 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.320 burn and artists who are trying to create. So it's 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.199 like Facebook said, it's complicated. 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.120 Sure, well, you know, I think the when you're describing 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.760 it that way, it doesn't even sound all that different 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.880 than say a YouTube, where there are some very small 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:25.240 percentage that are the creators and the rest are basically 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.720 the audience. I'm probably oversimplifying it, though. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.080 You're dead on right, Like, there's been this historic ratio 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.440 of one percent create, one to two percent create, eight 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.640 to nine percent engage that's some form of commenting, re sharing, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.000 doing something, and then about ninety percent just consume and 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.400 lurk and do very little. And that's been true since 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.800 I wrote my first blog post twenty something years ago. 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:51.800 Is that that's those are the ratios. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.160 And when I was looking at Sora engagement, one of 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.440 the things I noticed is commenting was really low, right, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.720 So my hunch is what was going wrong sort of 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.960 the wrong pyramid of sorts was being formed. Is that 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.800 way too many people creating lots of audience and not 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.400 of that, not a lot of that true deep engagement 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.040 or like like I would follow people who I thought 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.960 made cool stuff, but then that might have been the 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.200 only thing they ever did on sore and maybe they 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.400 used up all their credits or I don't know what happened, right, 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.760 So I think maybe we need and by need, I 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.960 wonder what will be the system that evolves into that, right, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:33.840 like YouTube could have a YouTube. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.200 AI only zone. 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:38.680 I think I think this is one suggestion I make 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.160 is that you know, much like I remember being in 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.360 the days where you go to a restaurant or an airplane, 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.560 there'd be a cigarette section that did its job fairly well. 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.000 I wonder if YouTube probably has the right strength of 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.840 brand to pull off a AI stuffs that over here if 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.920 you want to, it's all over here. Enjoy, here's AI remixes, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:03.440 here's AI real life things, here's AI animations here, et cetera. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.600 That could probably work, and then let people make their choices. 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.200 And let's because we do need people to have time 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.280 with all this media to figure out what we do 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:11.560 with it. 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.400 Right, Yeah, I think you're onto something there. I think that, 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.480 you know, especially when we put this in the in 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.080 the context of like a Disney plus and where this 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:27.640 could have lived. I don't think the way SOA was 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.920 was there is just one and only functionality that exists, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.440 and that is the raison to etra of the entire platform, 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.640 when in fact it probably should be one of a 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.320 number of things, and that's how it perhaps could have 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.200 worked on a on a Disney or YouTube as you 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.080 put it. I mean, to some degree, I think what 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.880 we're talking about here is the classic quibi mistake, where 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.400 you know quibis we've got to that point of the podcast. 0:15:55.440 --> 0:16:00.000 We must mention Quibi where you know, maybe Quibi if 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:01.680 if the content was good, and I know that's a 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.560 debate and of itself. If the content was good, there 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.880 would have been a business there. If it wasn't just 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.479 that content, if it existed along the side of other things. 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:14.360 I fully agree. 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:18.040 I mean it, look, it's hard to argue, especially at 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.400 this stage of the evolution of the media, that we actually 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.760 needed Quiby as its own sort of bespoke app If 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.720 Quibi had instead simply been like a fast network and 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.720 they had had microdramas on TikTok, which are obviously now 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.520 trending and doing very well, and had the fire TV 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.840 had a channel there like they didn't have to do 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.080 like the rotating tech and all these other things. Those 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:45.000 weren't necessary, right If they had just gotten the content 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.080 mixed together, that could have been really interesting. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.480 But to your point, this. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.320 Is these sort of a siloed, monolithic kind of approaches. 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.160 I wonder if Sora would have been better off if 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.960 they had hand picked users, gone to places like DV 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.080 and tard and read it and find people who are 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.000 off creating things in their own time, and and welcome 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:07.960 them in as a new tool to explore and help 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.320 us get it right right. I think there's a there 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.560 is an opportunity here, but it takes a lot of thoughtfulness. 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:20.680 It's not a mass blast approach. The notion of guardrails 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:26.720 and some usage limitation isn't a bad thing necessarily, right, 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.520 But when you then tell the whole world they can't 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.600 have Superman beating up Minnie Mouse being watched by Bell 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.080 from you to to be, you can't have that combo 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.600 that that just consumer or end users don't want to 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:41.200 deal with that. 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:43.280 The stickiness there. 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.880 At a company I was want one of the media 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.720 companies I once worked at, we had been envisioning building 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:52.159 a tool that would let a person come into a 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:56.720 special office we had and basically deep fake themselves into 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.840 one of our IP properties. I think that's fun. I 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.000 think being able to walk a ready again. I'll just 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.119 use the same example like if I can make me 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.280 look be the Superman in the actual Superman movie and 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.200 fighting off the beasts or whatever, and it actually looks 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.399 cool and I can get that as a thirty second 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.840 clip to share with my kids, that's fun. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.480 You know, that feels like fun? 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.800 Use of this technology right, like photo booth style, you know. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.159 But totally and by the way, I mean, that was 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.160 what SOA was to some degree, you had the ability 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.399 to inject yourself into these videos. I first of all, 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.159 let me ask you, did you do that? Did you 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:37.440 put yourself into any of it? 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.879 I refuse to, Yeah, I refuse to put up my 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.080 own I assume the internet has all my personal info 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:47.880 to begin with already. I just felt like the three 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.960 D rendering of my face might be the last thing 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.520 I don't want to give up to a company that 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.440 has not yet announced any form of what motivates them, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.680 or their their guidelines or their own guardrails, which seem 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.320 to be I felt like I could skip that one. 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:03.520 But you did it. Huh. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.439 Yeah, I mean, you're far smarter and more sensible than 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.520 I am. I just at first I did not for 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.679 the same reasons that you did. And then I just 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.119 broke down because I was so entranced by the thought of, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.320 well would I look like doing this, and what would 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.480 I look like that, you know, precautions be damned. Luckily, 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.119 at least at this point, I don't think anyone is 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:30.560 having their way with my likeness in an inappropriate way. 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:35.919 But I do think this is where this technology goes. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:41.680 That the deep thinking yourself into interactions with characters is 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.040 uniquely powerful. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.679 Totally agreed, like, why how far are we from like 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.080 someone making a choose your own adventure game that is 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.080 all video, it's all generative, it's all using just upload 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:55.920 a couple of things here and there, and now you're 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.320 in this you're looking for the sacred idol on the 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.880 temple or whatever other thing. I'm curious, Andrew, how was you? 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.040 How were the videos you were able to make with 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:07.040 yourself in them? 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.280 It was fascinating. They ran the gamut. Some of them 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.400 were like, Okay, I don't look like that, so what's 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:15.320 going on here? 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:16.439 And then there were. 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.919 Others where I was like, oh my god, this is 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.159 eerie and look, I never look. You make a video, 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.800 you publish it on the platform, anyone could see it. 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.480 But it wasn't like I was deliberately trying to shine 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.560 a light on it. I was literally just like making 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.959 the link, sending it to some friends and family and 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.840 they got a good laugh out of it. But yeah, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.479 there's a version of maybe I wouldn't be laughing if 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:42.960 it got into the wrong hand. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.159 It's a fun time. I mean, I love seeing all 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.520 this tech coming out. There are other platforms people can 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.840 play with, by the way, So if you're listening and 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:53.840 you still want to be playing with AI Video, which 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.159 I don't blame you, Google Video's really interesting and powerful. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.320 You can do a lot of stuff these days now 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.840 with Claw and Canva too, by the way, Canva and 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.600 even the Adobe has some pretty good video generation stuff. 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:10.040 So definitely go play around a little and see what 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.239 do you think of it. How do we embrace how 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:14.679 do we get a new generation of brad Birds and 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.960 other picks? And the picks are creatives, so that we're 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:22.360 just making whether it's infotainment, entertainment, whatever, the thing is 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.480 that we're giving people more to enjoy as opposed to 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.240 things that they instantly reject, right I maybe it was 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:33.240