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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 3: two in our series on the theme of licking with

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Speaker 3: the tongue. In part one of this series, we talked

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Speaker 3: about the role of licking in ancient Egyptian magic, which

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Speaker 3: spans everything from the blessed licks and laps of the

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Speaker 3: cow goddess Hathor to the sorceress violence of the crocodile

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Speaker 3: who licks off the protective spells of the dead, and

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Speaker 3: that discussion led to some diversions to talk about things

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Speaker 3: like the adaptive function of the snake's forked tongue licking

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Speaker 3: the air and the role that plays in chemo sensation

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Speaker 3: and research about when children acquire a disgust reaction to

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Speaker 3: contamination of food surfaces by licking. After that, we took

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Speaker 3: a hard pivot into candyland and talked about the frankly

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Speaker 3: shocking amount of research that has gone into the question

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Speaker 3: how many licks does it take to get to the

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Speaker 3: center of a tutsi pop, which is a deep rabbit

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Speaker 3: hole that becomes more philosophically interesting that the longer you

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Speaker 3: gaze into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I keep thinking about those TUTSI roll experiments. I

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Speaker 2: think pretty much most, if not all of them were

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Speaker 2: I think, at least on some level and in some

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Speaker 2: phase approached with a fair amount of wit and whimsy.

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Speaker 2: But you get the sense that like, once these scientific

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Speaker 2: minds started digging into it, like it just becomes irresistible.

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Speaker 2: It's just you've got to follow it through and put

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Speaker 2: in the work.

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Speaker 3: So we're back today to talk about licking some more.

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Speaker 3: And I promised that in today's episode we would talk

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Speaker 3: about wound licking behavior in animals, So I think that's

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Speaker 3: where we want to start. First of all, just Rob,

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Speaker 3: I've got a few photos for you to look at

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Speaker 3: in the outline here that are various statues of a

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Speaker 3: Catholic saint. No as I'm a little confused about how

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Speaker 3: to pronounce this guy's name because it's spelled different ways

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Speaker 3: in different languages. I believe it's Saint Roche or Saint Rock,

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Speaker 3: sometimes spelled r o c h, sometimes spelled r c

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Speaker 3: K or rck e or rch e anyway, a Catholic

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Speaker 3: saint widely associated with hospitals, and with the Black Death.

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Speaker 3: I was looking at a gallery page about him and

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Speaker 3: some artworks of him from the Met Museum, which are

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Speaker 3: talking pointing out that very often depictions of this saint,

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Speaker 3: he is shown with his left hand touching a sore

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Speaker 3: on his thigh, which that explains why so many of

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Speaker 3: the images of this saint he looks like literally like

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Speaker 3: he's trying to show a little leg, like he's lifting

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Speaker 3: something up. He's like, hey, have a look at my

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Speaker 3: thigh here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in many cases too, or in some depictions it's

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Speaker 2: like he's wearing shorts, so with like both legs on

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Speaker 2: full display.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, into these leggy outfits. Often also he has a

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Speaker 3: dog beside him, and both the showing of the sore

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Speaker 3: on his leg, there's like a sore on his thigh

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Speaker 3: showing this bulge or sore on his thigh and the

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Speaker 3: dog beside him connect to this legend about the Saint

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Speaker 3: that he at one point was traveling. I think he

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Speaker 3: was on a pilgrimage and he became very ill. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if he got the plague or some other illness.

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Speaker 3: The boil or the bulge would sort of connect to

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Speaker 3: the idea that he got bubonic plague. But he fell

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Speaker 3: ill and he collapsed somewhere, But then he was miraculously

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Speaker 3: healed by a dog, a dog that brought him bread

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Speaker 3: and licked his wounds.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, in these various depictions you'll see the

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Speaker 2: dog either carrying the bread, holding the bread up to

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Speaker 2: the man, or sometimes looks like maybe the bread is

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Speaker 2: on the ground next to the dog. I guess the

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Speaker 2: dog brought it and dropped it like here you go.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, this is not even the only major

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Speaker 3: figure in Christianity to be part of a dog licking

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Speaker 3: sores or dog licking his wounds motif that is said

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Speaker 3: about the poor man Lazarus in the story in the Bible.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember the rob Oh? Yes, the parable Jesus

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Speaker 3: tells like he's ill and he falls down and the

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Speaker 3: dogs lick his sores. It always seemed kind of gross.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, I just I'll explain more about

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Speaker 3: this as we go on in a few minutes here,

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Speaker 3: but I want to say at the top, having a

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Speaker 3: dog lick your wounds is not a reliable way to

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Speaker 3: be healed of illness or to treat injuries.

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Speaker 2: Yes, no matter what you might hear on Instagram or

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Speaker 2: TikTok about the latest wound healing trend that's sweeping the nation.

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Speaker 3: It's all natural, it really is, but there are reasons

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Speaker 3: even though it's not actually advisable, there are reasons why

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Speaker 3: people get there mentally to think, oh, a dog healed

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Speaker 3: me by licking my wounds. So in the last episode

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Speaker 3: we talked about the licking of injuries in the Egyptian

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Speaker 3: magical context and how that was probably modeled on the

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Speaker 3: observation of animals licking their wounds in nature. So I

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Speaker 3: was wondering, first of all, which animals do and do

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Speaker 3: not lick their wounds. Unfortunately, I don't think I can

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Speaker 3: issue any kind of categorical taxonomic statement on this. It's

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Speaker 3: not like, oh, mammals do it, and no other animals do.

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Speaker 3: The best I can do is offer a kind of

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Speaker 3: generalization and incomplete list of animals that have been observed

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Speaker 3: licking cuts and punctures in the skin. The behavior does

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Speaker 3: seem to be most prevalent in mammals, though not present

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Speaker 3: in all mammals and probably not completely limited to them,

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Speaker 3: But animals that lick wounds include rodents like mice and rats,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of the research on the biology of

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Speaker 3: wound licking has been performed in mice and rats. For example,

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Speaker 3: there's research showing that in domesticated brown rats, wounds heal

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Speaker 3: fast or when the rat is able to reach the

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Speaker 3: wound with its mouth to lick it. And this in

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Speaker 3: itself kind of highlights some features of wound looking adaptations,

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Speaker 3: One that they do seem to help things heal, but

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Speaker 3: also that in a lot of animals, self directed licking

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Speaker 3: is going to be limited by what parts of the

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Speaker 3: body the animal can reach with its own mouth. Some

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Speaker 3: animals are more flexible than others.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, So certainly we think about our own case,

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Speaker 2: like we cannot lick every part of our own body

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Speaker 2: that we might desire to lick because.

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Speaker 3: Of our wound cut on the elbow. You're out of luck. Yeah. Also,

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Speaker 3: animals that lick their wounds include many primates humans. Also,

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Speaker 3: to some extent, there does appear to be at least

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Speaker 3: some latent wound looking instinct in humans, though obviously lots

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Speaker 3: of humans don't do it, and there are good reasons

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Speaker 3: not to do it if you have other options, which

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Speaker 3: most people do, but most I don't know about. Most

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Speaker 3: many primates seem to have a wound looking instinct. Monkeys

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Speaker 3: and apes or observed to lick wounds in nature. Some carnivores,

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Speaker 3: including domestic dogs and cats, lick their wounds. Of course,

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Speaker 3: some wild ungulates, such as deer bears lick their wounds.

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Speaker 3: Maybe not all bears, but some bears at least. There

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Speaker 3: are some reports that horses occasionally lick wounds, but I

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Speaker 3: don't know. I was trying to sort this out. Evidence

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Speaker 3: on that seems mixed to me. But it's also not

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Speaker 3: just mammals, especially if you expand the definition of licking

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Speaker 3: a little bit, like I see some reports online of

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Speaker 3: anecdotal reports of people who keep reptiles like certain lizards,

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Speaker 3: talking about the lizard's licking wounds. But again, the evidence

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Speaker 3: is a little fuzzy. In this case, however, there is

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Speaker 3: a scientifically recognized behavior in some ant species where injured

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Speaker 3: worker ants will be brought back to the colony for

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Speaker 3: medical treatment, which essentially amounts to having their wounds licked

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Speaker 3: by first aid ants. It's not exactly licking with a

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Speaker 3: mammalian tongue, but the wound treating ants will get the

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Speaker 3: injured ant, and maybe it's been injured on a raid

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Speaker 3: against a bunch of termites, and they'll get the injured

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Speaker 3: ant and bring it back and treat the wound site

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Speaker 3: by touching it with their mouth parts and applying saliva,

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Speaker 3: which helps prevent infection and promotes healing. According to a

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen article by Frank Verhon and Linsen Mayer in

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Speaker 3: the species Megaponera analysis, they found that quote lack of treatment.

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Speaker 3: Lack of treatment by this licking procedure increased mortality from

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Speaker 3: ten percent to eighty percent within twenty four hours, most

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Speaker 3: likely due to infections. So being able to get this

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Speaker 3: licking treatment from the other ants makes a huge difference

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Speaker 3: in survival rates. So if a bunch of animals do

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Speaker 3: lick wounds, that raises the question why what are the

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Speaker 3: potential benefits of wound licking. It turns out there are

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Speaker 3: a bunch first, and I think this one is underappreciated

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Speaker 3: in some sources that really focus exclusively on the healing

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Speaker 3: properties of saliva. The first thing to mention is the

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Speaker 3: mechanical cleaning of the wound area by the tongue. Licking

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Speaker 3: the wound can remove necrotic or dead tissue, especially if

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Speaker 3: it's only very loosely attached at this point can remove

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Speaker 3: dead or dyeing tissue from the wound area. This is

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Speaker 3: called dibridement in a surgical context. And licking also, more

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Speaker 3: importantly probably removes dirt and other material contaminants from the

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Speaker 3: environment from the site of the injury. This is really

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Speaker 3: important because dirt and other contaminating solids and some liquids

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Speaker 3: are potentially microbial delivery vehicles. They have bacteria and other

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Speaker 3: microbes on them and in them. And if say a

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Speaker 3: little fleck of soil remains in an open wound, the

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Speaker 3: microbes that are densely packed in that soil can move

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Speaker 3: from the fleck of soil to the exposed tissue and

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Speaker 3: cause an infection. And so licking with the tongue mechanically

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Speaker 3: scrapes that fleck of soil out of the wound so

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Speaker 3: that it doesn't become a landing craft for a microbial army.

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Speaker 3: And note that this is the same reason that doctors

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Speaker 3: would advise you to wash a wound as soon as

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Speaker 3: possible after you get hurt. Washing a wound out with water, soap,

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Speaker 3: and water performs the same function as licking. Here it

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Speaker 3: physically removes contaminants that bring a payload of germs with them.

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Speaker 2: So basically, whatever is in a dog saliva, there may

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Speaker 2: already be things far worse than dog saliva in the wound. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so the tongue can just physically remove those again, almost

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Speaker 2: like you were rinsing out a wound, which of course

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Speaker 2: the dog can't do because it doesn't have access to

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Speaker 2: modern medical science and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, Yes, so the dog's tongue, for the dog, is

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Speaker 3: the best it can do because it doesn't have clean

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Speaker 3: running tapwater. Second, when animals lick a wound, they not

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Speaker 3: only get rid of the bad stuff, but they also

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Speaker 3: introduce substances to the wound through their saliva that may

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Speaker 3: help the wound heal. Some examples here antimicrobial enzymes in

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Speaker 3: our saliva that selectively kill germs on contact. A common

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Speaker 3: example here is the enzyme lysizyme. This is found in

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Speaker 3: a bunch of our body fluids. Actually it's in spit,

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Speaker 3: but also tears nasal and epithelial mucus in milk, and

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Speaker 3: also in non human body fluids like egg whites. Lysisyme

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Speaker 3: selectively attacks GRAM positive bacteria by dissolving their cell walls.

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Speaker 3: So if bacteria made horror movies, lysizyme might be a

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Speaker 3: good candidate for a melt movie monster. You know, it

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Speaker 3: just kind of it melts you. It dissolves your you know,

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Speaker 3: the outside of the cells. Another anti my chrobial in

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Speaker 3: saliva is called lactoferrin. This is a protein that prevents

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Speaker 3: bacteria from growing by starving them of iron. Bacteria need

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Speaker 3: iron atoms to reproduce, and lactoferriin bonds to free iron,

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Speaker 3: making it unavailable for the bacterial cells. This is called

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Speaker 3: iron sequestration. Removes the iron from them and so that

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Speaker 3: they can't get what they need in order to grow

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Speaker 3: and survive. And that's not even a whole list. Animals

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Speaker 3: just have a big host of antibacterial agents in their saliva.

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Speaker 3: And note that these antibacterial agents in the saliva wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be evolved exclusively for the application to external wounds. They

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Speaker 3: play a big role in protecting the body in the mouth,

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Speaker 3: like they're doing stuff for your body in your mouth,

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Speaker 3: for your digestive system, and for your mouth cavity. Spit

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Speaker 3: also contains things that are not just antimicrobials, but things

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Speaker 3: that can actively speed up the healing process in the

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Speaker 3: affected tissue. And this includes his statins. These are proteins

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Speaker 3: that also have antimicrobial properties, but in addition to that,

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Speaker 3: they promote healing by causing what's called epithelial migration. They

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Speaker 3: cause epithelial cells to migrate to the exposed tissue surface

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Speaker 3: and close the wound. And saliva also has growth factor

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Speaker 3: proteins like epithelial growth factor and nerve growth factor, and

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Speaker 3: you can see some of these influences at work. Actually,

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Speaker 3: if you have ever noticed that injuries inside your mouth

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Speaker 3: tend to heal a good bit faster than injuries on

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Speaker 3: your outer skin.

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Speaker 2: Hmmm, I mean that that can be a kind of

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Speaker 2: a paradox to consider because sometimes wounds inside your mouth

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Speaker 2: are a little more irritating then wounds on your outer skin,

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Speaker 2: so they might feel like they hang around longer. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I'll have to really calculate on this one.

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Speaker 3: Well, they might actually hang around longer, depending on things

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Speaker 3: like if you keep if something keeps irritating them or

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Speaker 3: keeps reopening the.

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Speaker 2: Wound a sharp the wheat, then yes, yeah, if.

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Speaker 3: You keep cutting it open over and over, like, because

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Speaker 3: you're using your mouth in a way that like you know,

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Speaker 3: you could actually just keep stuff away from a cut

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Speaker 3: on your skin, so there could be ways that something

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Speaker 3: in your mouth would last longer, but it is typically

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Speaker 3: the case that abrasions and cuts on the oral mucosa

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Speaker 3: heal faster than on the outside of the body. And

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Speaker 3: one reason for this not the only reason, probably, but

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Speaker 3: one reason is the presence of these healing factors and

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Speaker 3: antimicrobial agents within the saliva, so a lot of benefits

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Speaker 3: in spit. Spit could do a lot for an open wound,

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Speaker 3: but these benefits do not come free. Wound looking, in fact,

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Speaker 3: has a very high cost. It comes with risks. At

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Speaker 3: the same time that it removes contaminants, provides antimicrobial enzymes,

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Speaker 3: and stimulates healing, it also so introduces problems of its own.

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Speaker 3: For example, failure to regulate the wound looking behavior can

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Speaker 3: lead to overlocking, which itself almost creates new wounds or

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Speaker 3: makes the wound worse kind of keeps it from healing.

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Speaker 3: It can irritate or further injure the skin. A common

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Speaker 3: example is that you know a dog just it has

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Speaker 3: a wound looking instinct, but it can't turn the instinct off,

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Speaker 3: so it just keeps licking a wound, making it actually

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Speaker 3: worse and worse, So the injured dog will need a

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Speaker 3: cone because it doesn't know when to stop.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that sometimes the cone is for that, I know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes a cone with an animal is also to keep

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Speaker 2: them from licking off a medication, which of course they

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Speaker 2: have not evolved to understand. Like for the natural world dog,

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Speaker 2: the best medicine is the dog saliva. The idea that

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Speaker 2: there is a better medicine out there that did not

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Speaker 2: come from their mouth is an impossible idea.

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Speaker 3: Right, So there can be multiple reasons for I mean,

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Speaker 3: it can ye keep a dog from removing medication, can

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Speaker 3: keep a dog from tearing out stitches, and can also

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Speaker 3: just keep a dog from over grooming or overlicking a

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Speaker 3: wound site. But maybe even more importantly, wound licking while

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Speaker 3: it removes some contaminants and microbes, it introduces others. The

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Speaker 3: mouth is not sterile, so it's going to be delivering

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Speaker 3: bacteria from the mouth cavity to the wound and this

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Speaker 3: does come with genuine risks, especially if the animal's oral

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Speaker 3: health is poor, or if it has mouth infections, or

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Speaker 3: if the animal's immune system is compromised, or if the

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Speaker 3: animal just has an oral microbiome that is more dangerous

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Speaker 3: to cross link to open wounds. So you might imagine

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Speaker 3: that this could be the case with carnivores. A carnivore

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Speaker 3: licking its wounds, that might be a riskier behavior than

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Speaker 3: a herbivore licking its wounds on average, but still a

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Speaker 3: lot of carnivores do it, so the benefits still seem

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Speaker 3: to outweigh the costs in nature. So if it comes

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Speaker 3: with these dangers, you can, you know, maybe contaminate the

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Speaker 3: wound with bacteria from the mouth. If it comes with

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Speaker 3: these dangers, why does the behavior continue? Why does it

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Speaker 3: persist in nature? It just seems like it's a case

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Speaker 3: of trade offs, and on average, the wound looking instinct

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Speaker 3: does more good than harm in the animals where it persists,

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Speaker 3: it helps and it causes harm, and it does a

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Speaker 3: little bit more of the former than the latter. So

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Speaker 3: it's the evolutionary math works out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, does it allow the individual animal in question to

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Speaker 2: live long enough to do more reproduction? Essentially, like it

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Speaker 2: kind of boils down to.

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Speaker 3: That, Yeah, Or if it just you've got a wound

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Speaker 3: and it makes things worse forty percent of the time,

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Speaker 3: but makes things better seventy percent of the time, I'll

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Speaker 3: take that you know, you know odd, or I guess

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Speaker 3: the math I just proposed didn't work out, but seventy

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Speaker 3: thirty I guess yeah, I just I don't know what

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Speaker 3: the real numbers are. But anyway, with the knowledge of

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Speaker 3: germ theory and modern medicine, we don't have to go

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Speaker 3: with this math. Fortunately, because by washing out a wound

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Speaker 3: with clean water and soap and applying clean pharmaceutical antimicrobials

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Speaker 3: to the wound site, you can basically get all of

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Speaker 3: the benefits of wound looking with none of the risks. Now,

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Speaker 3: another interesting thing about wound locking is that there are

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Speaker 3: two different versions of this behavior. There's the main kind

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Speaker 3: we've been talking about, which is self directed wound loocking

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Speaker 3: licking your own cut or scrape. But there's also what's

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Speaker 3: called communal wound looking, licking the wounds of others of

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Speaker 3: your species. I found a good quick review of the

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Speaker 3: research on communal wound looking in the background section of

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Speaker 3: a paper called Licking their Wounds Social Response to Trauma

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Speaker 3: by free ranging Bison. This is by Thomas Young, Kayleye. Thacker,

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Speaker 3: and Christopher Lewis, published in the journal Ethology in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty three, and they talk about how communal wound looking

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Speaker 3: has broadly the same hygienic and healing acceleration benefits as

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Speaker 3: self directed licking, but with some interesting added factors. One

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Speaker 3: is that if animals in a group lick the wounds

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Speaker 3: of other animals, this allows the treatment of wound sites

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Speaker 3: that the animals cannot reach with their own mouths. So

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Speaker 3: this gets around the flexibility problem.

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Speaker 2: Right, especially if you're dealing I mean, you could be

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Speaker 2: dealing with human beings again, but especially if you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about large herbivores.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, But also this is interesting there could be

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Speaker 3: secondary social benefits which are parallel to the benefits of

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Speaker 3: social grooming. Young and co authors note that group wound

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Speaker 3: looking might trigger a release of the hormone oxytocin and

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Speaker 3: other associated neurotransmitters, which could help reduce the stress of

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Speaker 3: animals after a traumatic incident and could help strengthen social

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Speaker 3: bonds among group members. So oxytocin chemically counteracts the effects

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Speaker 3: of the hormone cortisol or stress hormone, and is thus

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Speaker 3: used internally to deactivate the body's stress response. This can

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Speaker 3: be really useful because while the stress response stress hormones

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Speaker 3: are good for you in an emergency, like if you

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Speaker 3: are about to run or fight for your life, they

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Speaker 3: quickly become a harmful burden on the body if you

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Speaker 3: are not about to run or fight for your life,

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Speaker 3: so you want to turn them off whenever you don't

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Speaker 3: need them. I think we could all use that and

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Speaker 3: find a way to turn the stress hormones off more often.

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Speaker 3: Oxytocin is also importantly involved in forming social bonds between individuals.

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Speaker 3: It plays some kind of role in complex cognitive and

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Speaker 3: social effects like love, devotion, and loyalty. Though it's important

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Speaker 3: to flag some caveats here because the role of oxytocin

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Speaker 3: socially and cognitively I think sometimes it gets oversimplified. Oxytocin

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Speaker 3: is not the only hormone that is involved in this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and it's also not like an automatic love potion that

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Speaker 3: just mechanistically makes us love people when it is released.

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Speaker 3: Love and loyalty and related emotions are complex and multi causal,

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Speaker 3: and even the chemical influences that feed into them are many.

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Speaker 3: But oxytocin is important, and so it's if it is

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Speaker 3: released by this communal wound looking behavior the same way

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Speaker 3: that it is sometimes released during grooming behaviors that could

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Speaker 3: signal that that communal wound looking plays some role in

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Speaker 3: strengthening or regulating maintaining social bonds within a group. Communal

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Speaker 3: wound looking has also been observed in rodents, in primates,

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Speaker 3: and in this study by Young and co authors, it

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Speaker 3: was observed in social ungulates, specifically bison in northwestern Canada,

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Speaker 3: which had been shot with tranquilizer darts so that they

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Speaker 3: could be tagged for tracking the author's right quote. The

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Speaker 3: day after being darted, we observe three different adult bison

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Speaker 3: lick the wounds of the two wounded bison. Both bison

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Speaker 3: were less than three meters, were within less than three

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Speaker 3: meters of each other during this time, and all of

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Speaker 3: the observed wound looking occurred in less than ten minutes.

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Speaker 3: Our observation provides an additional example of communal wound locking

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Speaker 3: in free ranging mammals and extends it to a social ungulate.

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Speaker 3: Benefits to bison of communal wound looking are perhaps largely social,

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Speaker 3: and that kind of brings me back to thoughts about

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Speaker 3: these stories of dogs licking humans wounds. You know, this

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Speaker 3: is an even further thing where it's like a cross

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Speaker 3: species wound looking behavior kind of makes me think that

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Speaker 3: that is cross species wound looking, I doubt is something

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Speaker 3: that is directly specifically an evolved adaptation, but probably more

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Speaker 3: like a you know, a misapplication of a general wound

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Speaker 3: licking impulse that's primarily probably focused on a dog's own

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Speaker 3: kind or its own ancestors.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess that one of the things that

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Speaker 2: potentially complicates all of this, or a least adds another dimension,

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Speaker 2: because so many things in animal behavior they're they're not

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Speaker 2: so cleanly defined by one category. Is that of course,

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Speaker 2: I mean just looking at the dog, right. A dog

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Speaker 2: will also lick you in the face when there's not

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Speaker 2: a wound there, That's right. One of my friend's dogs

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Speaker 2: routinely just licks my pants the whole time I'm over

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Speaker 2: at his house, and I'm not sure exactly why.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there could be multiple different motivations going on

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Speaker 3: for that kind of licking. Like it could be a

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Speaker 3: social grooming kind of thing. It's a social behavior that is,

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Speaker 3: you know, to help dogs relate to each other and

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Speaker 3: maintain their relationships, something about bonding. It could be a

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Speaker 3: it could just be a you know, like taste and

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Speaker 3: texture thing like a dog is you know, it likes

400
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Speaker 3: something it's getting from this licking feeling or from the

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Speaker 3: licking taste there. It might I wonder if dogs licking

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00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 3: human wounds could just be because they're getting some salty there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, all of these things are kind of

404
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: in play with some topics related to the cat we're

405
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Speaker 2: about to get into, because I didn't really I didn't

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Speaker 2: specifically look at cat wound licking though, as we already mentioned,

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Speaker 2: like they are a type of organism that does this,

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00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 2: but I was looking at various other forms of social licking,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, it's one of these areas where there are

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00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 2: a number of different overlaps and some competing and potential

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Speaker 2: potentially overlapping theories as to why they engage in it,

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Speaker 2: And a lot of it does come down to like

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Speaker 2: social activity, the release of potential release of hormones, and

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Speaker 2: how it makes the individual cat feel to groom or

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Speaker 2: be groomed. So moving on to cats, then, if you

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Speaker 2: have ever lived with a cat, I know that they

417
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Speaker 2: have various tactile ways to make their feelings known. You

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Speaker 2: may receive the scratch, you may get the wet and

419
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: nose boop, the rub the head butt, the making of biscuits.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the coveted lap set. You may also find

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Speaker 2: yourself licked.

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Speaker 3: A connoisseur of pet affection may notice a textural difference

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Speaker 3: in cat licks and dog licks. I find that the

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Speaker 3: dog's tongue is somewhat softer. The cat's tongue is somewhat rougher.

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Speaker 2: Yes, due to the papilla on the cat Tonguehich I'll

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Speaker 2: get into. It's like it's essentially their comb. As you've observed,

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Speaker 2: cats will rigorously groom themselves with their tongue, and the

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Speaker 2: papilla on their tongue allows them to essentially, you know,

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Speaker 2: they work like the again, the teeth of a comb.

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Speaker 2: And that's why it's a little bit scratchy. And that's

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Speaker 2: why being licked by a cat is often a ticklish affair,

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Speaker 2: one that caused for a certain amount of what's going on?

433
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: Why is it happening? Sort of reaction.

434
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 3: When I think about the cat's tongue, I pretty much

435
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 3: always think of the eighteenth century English poet Christopher Smart,

436
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 3: who wrote I think some of the best cat poetry

437
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 3: of all time, in a section known as for I

438
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: will consider my cat Jeffrey after the first line in

439
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: the section in his devotional Christian poem Jubilate Agno, meaning

440
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: rejoice in the lamb. Smart wrote this when he was

441
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: confined to a mental institution in London called Saint Luke's

442
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 3: Hospital for Lunatics. This was roughly in the middle of

443
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 3: the eighteenth century. I know I've brought this poem up

444
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 3: on the show before at some point.

445
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I remember one line in particular. Now that

446
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it again.

447
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: I just love it. It's too long to read in

448
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: full here, but I love it so much. I have

449
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: to mention the part leading up to the part about

450
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 3: the tongue, but then also one other highlight from later.

451
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 3: So the section leading up to the tongue line goes

452
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 3: like this, He's celebrating all of He's just adoring his cat,

453
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 3: Jeffrey's celebrating all of Jeffrey's virtues. And Smart writes, for

454
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 3: he is the quickest to his of any creature, for

455
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 3: he is tenacious of his point. For he is a

456
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 3: mixture of gravity and waggery. For he knows that God

457
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: is his savior. For there is nothing sweeter than his

458
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: peace when at rest. For there is nothing brisker than

459
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 3: his life when in motion, for he is of the

460
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 3: Lord's poor, and so indeed is he called by benevolence

461
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 3: perpetually poor Jeffrey. Poor Jeffrey. The rat has bit thy throat.

462
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 3: For I bless the name of the Lord Jesus, that

463
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 3: Jeffrey is better, for the divine spirit comes about his

464
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: body to sustain it in complete cat. For his tongue

465
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: is exceeding pure, so that it has in purity what

466
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 3: it wants in music.

467
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 4: Beautiful.

468
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: It really is beautiful. And that last line, So that's

469
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 3: the line about the tongue. It's exceeding pure, it has

470
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: in purity what it wants in music. I don't know

471
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: if there's a meaning there that is going past me

472
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 3: through cultural context or beliefs about cats at the time,

473
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: but my interpretation is cat mau is just as good

474
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: as human mouth, even though cat mouth cannot talk. Cat

475
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: licks better than or equal to human words.

476
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would. I would agree with that. Like,

477
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: I'm not a huge fan of my cat licking me,

478
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 2: but when she does, I do acknowledge that it. I mean,

479
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 2: I don't want to overstate it and be like it

480
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: is an act of love or whatever, but at the

481
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: very least. It is a neutral act, and I know

482
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 2: that I am in okay graces with the animal at

483
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: the moment. That's what we go to go for in

484
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: this household, sustaining neutrality.

485
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: I think it's okay to call that love. You understand,

486
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: you know, you understand the differences in cats and humans.

487
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 3: But still there's there's something there that you know, you

488
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 3: can make that metaphorical.

489
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: Leave yeah, as long as yeah, I know, I'm calling

490
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: it love, So it's fine.

491
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 3: The one other passage I wanted to read here, this

492
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: is from sort of the end of the section about

493
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Smart rites. For by stroking of him, I have

494
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: found out electricity. For I perceived God's light about him,

495
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 3: both wax and fire. For the electrical fire is the

496
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: spiritual substance which God sends from Heaven to sustain the bodies,

497
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 3: both of man and beast. For God has blessed him

498
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: in the variety of his movements. For though he cannot fly,

499
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: he is an excellent clamberer. For his motions upon the

500
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 3: face of the earth are more than any other quadruped.

501
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 3: For he can tread to all the measures upon the music.

502
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: For he can swim for life or he Can.

503
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: Creep, Joe, you will be delighted to know that for

504
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: He Can Creep is the title of an episode of

505
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: the latest season of Love, Death, and Robots, and it

506
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: is about a poet and a sanitarium and his beloved

507
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: cat named Jeffrey stands against the forces of darkness and

508
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: it's rather good.

509
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that show, but really tempted to watch

510
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: now because yeah, I love for my cat Jeffrey.

511
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: Yet features the voice of Jim Broadman as Christopher the Poet.

512
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: Well, there's other stuff I couldn't get to here, so

513
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: I just recommend anybody who wants to go look up

514
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 3: the four I will consider my cat Jeffrey section of

515
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: the poem Jubilate Agno. You can find it online.

516
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: It's great, excellent, excellent. You know, I recently watched part

517
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: of a series started it watching it with my kid,

518
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: titled Night of the Living Cat. It is a Japanese

519
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: animated series based on a manga and Takashi mi k

520
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: played a hand in it. But it's so far at

521
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: least it's totally age appropriate. But it's super fun because

522
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: it's obviously a parody of zombie and apocalypse films, except

523
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: The whole idea is that cats carry some sort of

524
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: a virus, and if they come into contact with you,

525
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: and certainly if they lick you, you too will become

526
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: a cat. And so the population of the planet is

527
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: swiftly becoming a population of cats.

528
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 4: Whoa.

529
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 3: So that's very much an inversion of the Christopher Smart

530
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 3: idea about the purity of the tongue.

531
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, the show is pretty fun and that it also

532
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: plays with the fact that even though humans recognize that

533
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: the cats are bringing their destruction, they also still love cats,

534
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: and so they can't bring themselves to do violence against

535
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: cats or anything of that nature. It's just like a

536
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: heartbreaking affair. It's pretty fun though so far, so I'd

537
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: like that premise. Yeah, all right, Well, getting back into licking.

538
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: Licking is of course just one way that cats communicate

539
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 2: and or get information about the world. They may lick

540
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: your skin out of curiosity, if you particularly. Theories vary

541
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: on all this, but one idea is that they might

542
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 2: lick you because your skin is salty, or you have

543
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: something on your skin that is interesting. And I'm not

544
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: sure there's a firm answer on any of that, but

545
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: it just may be part of the scenario. So if

546
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: your cat is licking you and there doesn't seem to

547
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: be any rhyme or reason, it could just be that

548
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: where they're just like, oh, salty interesting, or oh lotion interesting.

549
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: Of course, as with any domesticated or semi domesticated animal,

550
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: depending on how you view cats, the relationship that we

551
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 2: have with house cats is complicated by all of this,

552
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: of course, and in some ways whatever we have going

553
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: on with the cat is a perversion of what would

554
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: occur in nature. So in some ways, the best way

555
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: to understand what they're licking of us means we have

556
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: to look at how they interact with other cats in

557
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 2: their natural environment, So especially looking at colonies of cats

558
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: where a number of cats have essentially come together or

559
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: kind of aggregated in such a way that they don't

560
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: have to worry so much about food, they're not competing

561
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: with each other, and they will find some sort of stability.

562
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean they all get along with each other, though,

563
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: because cats will have and I've seen this term used

564
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: multiple times, they will have preferred associates. To be clear,

565
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: they do not have friends, they have preferred associates, which

566
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: which I like. It sounds like cat legal eese.

567
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 3: Maybe I've just got film noir on the brain because

568
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: of the stuff we've been doing on Weird House Cinema.

569
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 3: But I'm thinking of like Humphrey Bogart's associates in the

570
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: noir films, people that he's not exactly lovely with, but

571
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: you know, they they sort of have a working relationship.

572
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: They tolerate, into some sense, depend on each other. Yeah,

573
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: so among preferred associates you encounter a number of different actions.

574
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: There's something called alla rubbing. This is when they rub

575
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: their bodies and tails against each other as a form

576
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: of social bonding and communication. So I think everyone has

577
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: seen an example of this and with cats and other cats,

578
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: but also anytime they rub against especially if they rub

579
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 2: against your legs, this is seen as an extinct as

580
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: an extension of this behavior. Now I'm not sure about

581
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: feet because speaking mainly from my experience, rubbing against my

582
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: feet often quickly devolves into play and play biting of

583
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: my feet, and of course levels of play are going

584
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: to occur, especially in younger cats, but even in older cats,

585
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: and then indoor cats is kind of a forever kitten

586
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: scenario by some estimates. So again, another example where you

587
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 2: can't just talk about the social behavior among preferred associates,

588
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: because it could descend into play at any point, and

589
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: that's another factor in everything.

590
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 4: I know.

591
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: This is asking you to get inside the mind of

592
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 3: a cat, which may be impossible. But you've talked before

593
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: about your cat having a habit of attacking your feet

594
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: out from underneath furniture. Do you get the sense that

595
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 3: your cat in the moment is thinking of your feet

596
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: as part of your body or are the feet just

597
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 3: something that's moving? Does that make sense?

598
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 2: That's a complicated question and one that I've I've heard

599
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: more broadly explored a lot of times just talking about

600
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: what do cats think humans are? And I've heard the

601
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: argument that, you know, they think that we're other cats,

602
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 2: and if they think that there were other cat, other cats,

603
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: then it makes sense to engage in play with us.

604
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: Play generally takes the form of fake fighting.

605
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 4: I know.

606
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: Another thing that my cat will do is come up

607
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: next to my foot, my sockt foot, PLoP down next

608
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: to that foot, way too close to my foot, as

609
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: if inviting me to rub against her. And even if

610
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: I don't rub against her, she may just start attacking

611
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: my foot. So so like that's one way, But then

612
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 2: there's there's also the idea that cats see us as

613
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: part of their environment as well, so like we we

614
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: also have sort of like a deep personified status to

615
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: some degree where we are just part of the place

616
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 2: that they are comfortable with. And I mean, we can

617
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: certainly understand that when they use us as a heated

618
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: bed and just want to sit on this all the

619
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 2: time during the colder months.

620
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 3: Are we warm moving furniture?

621
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't know. I'm willing to bet there's

622
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit of both of these scenarios going on.

623
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: And you know, the cat is going to have a

624
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: you know, probably from our standpoint, a perplexing understanding of

625
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: other beings, Like they're not going to perceive other beings

626
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 2: the same way we do. We're going to and it's

627
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: probably a lot easier to understand their perception of definite

628
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: prey or predator status organisms.

629
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: Maybe it was not a meaningful question, No.

630
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: No, I think it's a fascinating quest when I think

631
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: about all the time I lock eyes with this creature

632
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 2: across the room, and I'm like, what does she think

633
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: I am?

634
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: Like?

635
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 2: What am I to her? And indeed, then I turn around.

636
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: What is she to me? I don't know. These are

637
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: difficult questions to ask. But coming back to alo rubbing,

638
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: there is this seeming we might think of it as

639
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 2: an emotional context to it as well. I was reading

640
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: two thousand five Understanding Feline Signaling and Social Interactions. This

641
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: is from the proceedings of the North American Veterinary Conference

642
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: by Sharon L. Crowell Davis, and she pointed out that

643
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: in many ways this just is this rubbing of cats

644
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: against each other, and indeed a rubbing of a cat

645
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 2: against your leg. It's in many ways like a hug,

646
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: like it's comforting to them in the same way that

647
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: like other activities they do seem to be based purely

648
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: on comfort. Like for instance, cats will often be in

649
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 2: physical contact with each other while they are sleeping and

650
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: during the during cold months or cold environments, and again

651
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: cold by a cat standards, which is a little different

652
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: than human standards. It makes sense, right while they're sharing

653
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 2: each other's body heat. But they'll also do it even

654
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 2: if thermoregulation doesn't seem to be an issue. If it's

655
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: you know, hotter, warmer, and so forth, it may be

656
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: that they do these things, you know, just because it

657
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: is comforting to do them, and that gets to straight

658
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: up grooming as well. In the of licking a fur,

659
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: this is something that may be acquired and when they're

660
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: kittens it's comforting behavior. It might also be a way

661
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: to mark others. As we'll discuss a little bit more.

662
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: And as Carole Davis points out, humans have this terrible

663
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: sense of smell. We just can't we can't smell at all,

664
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: We've discussed as many times before, at anywhere close to

665
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: the same level as even a cat, and certainly not

666
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: a dog. So just it becomes very difficult for us

667
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: to understand or comprehend the olfactory lives of animals like this,

668
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: Like not only not just like a chemical understand like

669
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: we can sort of break down the chemical understanding of

670
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: chemical markers, but in terms of like translating that into

671
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 2: our like sort of larger understanding of how animals operate

672
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: in the world, it can be challenging.

673
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, they have an information rich relationship to the environment

674
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 3: on a dimension that where we come nowhere close.

675
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: Right, But getting back to where we're talking about with dogs,

676
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: with cats too, licking and grooming or soothing behaviors, it

677
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 2: stirs the release of endorphins. They may lick themselves, other

678
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 2: cats or humans, or also materials in the home, and

679
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: this can certainly spill over into excessive licking that may

680
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 2: be a sign of stress or some other situation, but

681
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: in general, it's like this is a calming action that

682
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: they can partake of.

683
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 4: Now.

684
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: On top of that, of course, cats are famous for

685
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: their use of self licking to fastidiously clean their own bodies,

686
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: a self grooming process that takes up a substantial portion

687
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 2: of their waking hours. I've seen different estimates on that

688
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: this mostly I've seen an estimate of between thirty and

689
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 2: forty percent of their waking hours, and this can amount

690
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: to something like five hours apparently of just endless grooming.

691
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: Cat owners will have noticed this, especially if your cat

692
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: does want to treat you like a couch and then

693
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: is like, hey, I'm not just going to sit here

694
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 2: and watch television with you, I'm also going to clean myself.

695
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: And then you're like, I don't want this anymore, and

696
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: you have to push them off or gently push them off,

697
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: or maybe you can put up with it. I find

698
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 2: it a little hard to put up with, but but yeah,

699
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: I've also seen like eight percent estimates. But anyway you

700
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: cut it, they spend a lot of time self grooming,

701
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: looking after their fur, cleaning it. And as I mentioned earlier,

702
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 2: part of it is, you know, using those little barbs

703
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: in their tongue, the sandpaper of their tongue to physically

704
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: clean their furs. There's a little backward facing barbs and

705
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: helps remove like little particles from their fur, kind of

706
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: getting back to the womb cleaning that we were talking

707
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: about earlier.

708
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

709
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 2: On top of just the mechanical cleaning of their fur,

710
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: self grooming also enables them to spread natural oils across

711
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: their coat, helps keep it clean, waterproof and insulated. Also,

712
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: as the saliva evaporates, it can also help cool them

713
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 2: down as a means of thermoregulation. So that's seems to

714
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 2: be in play as well. And then of course the

715
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: act itself is self soothing. They are in there. You

716
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: could almost say happy place if they are self grooming. Now,

717
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: when it comes back to the human question, I did

718
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: find a nice little explainer article that tackles this and

719
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 2: covers some of the ground we've already discussed. This was

720
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: for BBC Science Focus from I think a couple of

721
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: years ago by Thomas Ling, and he basically broke it

722
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 2: down into three different theories. The trust theory that they're

723
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: making a display of trust towards you. My cat is

724
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: licking me because they are saying you, I trust you

725
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: are good, You are a preferred associate. Then there's the

726
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: biochemical theory that there's something about your taste that's interesting, okay,

727
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 2: salt your lotion or what have you. And then there's

728
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 2: the possession play theory, and this is that they are

729
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: marking you as their own. They're saying like, this person

730
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: is my territory, this person is my property. And so

731
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: going through each of these, starting with the trust theory,

732
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,959
Speaker 2: this is I think relatable to the oligrooming scenario, which

733
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: means at best or a preferred affiliate. This should not

734
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: be confused with love. If we're talking, you know, purely

735
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: scientifically about the scenario. Again, we humans can call it love,

736
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: but maybe just understand that in the literature they're not

737
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 2: going to call it that.

738
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 4: But yeah.

739
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: Studies have shown though that any supposed trust bond that

740
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: a cat is associating with a human, it doesn't necessarily

741
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: mean it's absolute. So cats tend to be pretty solitary

742
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: in many cases, and in studies they found that they

743
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 2: get along well with strangers almost just as well or

744
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: as just as well as they would with other humans,

745
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: which cat owners I think sometimes observe this because in

746
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: our closed environments where we think about, oh, the cat,

747
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: she's so social, she loves us so much, she just

748
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 2: wants to be around us. And I'm not discounting any

749
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: of the social needs of cats, but it can also

750
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: be a little bit alarming when a stranger comes over

751
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: and it's like, cat's right in their lap and you're like,

752
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: you want to be like, you don't know that person

753
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: at all. Why weren't you said, in my lap? So, yeah,

754
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: that's one caveat to the trust theory. I think we've

755
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: hit the biochemical theory pretty well, and then the possession

756
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: play theory basically comes down to the idea that the

757
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: cat's own smell is the most important thing to it

758
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: in terms of its olfactory world, Like, it wants to

759
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: make sure it smells like itself, so it will lick

760
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: away any foreign smells in order to order to champion

761
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: and establish its own smell, and there may be some

762
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: level of territory marking when they lick or rub their

763
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: faces against humans, certainly like the face rubbing, which can

764
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: lead to licking or follow licking. You know, you never

765
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: know how it's going to go. You know.

766
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 3: I just had the thought that I wish I'd thought

767
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: of this before we recorded, so I could look it up.

768
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 3: But while I'm aware of lots of stories from legends

769
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 3: where a dog licks a human's wounds, I can't think

770
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 3: of anywhere a cat licks a human's wounds. Cat licks,

771
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: or at least not in anonical literature that I know of, wound.

772
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: Related Yeah, that's interesting. Well, maybe we'll come back to that.

773
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right.

774
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: To close out this episode, I would like to talk

775
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 2: a little bit about eye licking. In the last episode,

776
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 2: we discussed the idea of eye licking as it fits

777
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: into the magical and mythic concepts of the ancient Egyptians. Naturally,

778
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: a lot of social grooming animals will lick each other

779
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: in the face and in the eye. Come back to

780
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: a couple of examples of that, but I wanted to

781
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 2: touch on a couple of examples of animals that definitely

782
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: lick their own eyeballs.

783
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 3: Oh this is good.

784
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And of course it's interesting to us humans because

785
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 2: most humans cannot do this. To be sure, there are

786
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 2: way most most My initial thought was, and I like

787
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: my original original draft of the notes, as I was

788
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: kind of putting my thoughts to, I was like, well,

789
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 2: humans can't look their own eyes, so of course we

790
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: find this interesting. But then I dared to look a

791
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: little closer, and there are certain individuals who can, by

792
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: some definitions, lick their own eyeball. WHOA like, it's going

793
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: to come down to a few different measurements. So you know,

794
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: facial spacing certainly, and you know there's a fair amount

795
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: of variety there, but tongue size is the big one.

796
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 2: I was looking around, and I believe the average human

797
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 2: tongue link is between three and three point three inches.

798
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 2: But you have certain individuals who have verified or unverified

799
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 2: claims for almost four inch tongues. And then there are

800
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 2: at least claims and I don't know, maybe not certified,

801
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: but to my eye eyes convincing arguments for four inch tongues.

802
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: One in particular I was looking at, again not verified

803
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: by Guinness as far as I understand, but one Adrian

804
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 2: Lewis of the United Dates. You can look her up

805
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: because she was kind of like she appeared on various

806
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: news programs and like did social media and YouTube videos.

807
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: But she could stick out her tongue, which is allegedly

808
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: four inches long, and then using her finger, guide the

809
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: tongue up until it I think comes in contact with

810
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: the eye, or perhaps could come in contact with the eye.

811
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 3: I'm speechless, I like you assume, would have said no

812
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 3: human can lick their own eye. This is if this

813
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: is true, it's flabbergasting to me.

814
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it seems entirely possible that some humans can

815
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 2: bring their tongue into contact with their eye, if not

816
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: lick it in the same way that you know, an

817
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: animal with a long tongue can't, like as well to

818
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 2: get into in a bit like a giraffe and a

819
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: a copy can do this like they can without a

820
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: doubt lick their own tongue. Humans might have to have

821
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: a little help, and therefore, you know, it's very hard

822
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: to argue that there's any practical application for this.

823
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a doctor, but I would not recommend it

824
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: for the same base reasons why there are downsides to

825
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 3: licking your wounds. You know, you don't want to introduce bacteria.

826
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 3: The mouth is a bacteria rich environment. You don't want

827
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: to introduce microbes into a different place in the body

828
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: when you don't have to.

829
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I'll come back to the mammal world

830
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: real quickly because I have less to say about the

831
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: mammal world, because the ocopy and the giraffe are great

832
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 2: examples of related organisms. They both self groom via tongue licking,

833
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,239
Speaker 2: including licking of their own face, and they may lick

834
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: their eyes in the process. They also lick each other

835
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: during courtship. But the best example, the most exciting example

836
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 2: of an animal licking its own eyes, you'll find this

837
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 2: with geckos. Geckos or of course, reptiles of the suborder Gekkota,

838
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: of which there are at least fifteen hundred known species.

839
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: There are a lot of geckos out there. All geckos

840
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 2: can and do lick their own eyeball, and the main

841
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: reason for their doing so, again, it's not just to

842
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 2: show off on social media. They do it to clean

843
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: their eyes and remove debris from their eyes, such as

844
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: little grains of sand, particles, and so forth. Some geckos, however,

845
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: would seem to depend on this ability much more than others,

846
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: as discussed by herpetologist Aaron M. Bauer in the book Geckos,

847
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: The Animal Answered Guide. All geckos have eyelids, but if

848
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: you read some descriptions of the scenario, will say, you know,

849
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: a lot of geckos don't have islids. All geckos have eyelids,

850
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: but only the thirty species of the u Blephylaridae geckos

851
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: can move those eyelids. So it's one thing to have eyelids,

852
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 2: but can you actually make them.

853
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 4: Go up and down?

854
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 2: Oh? Okay, interesting, So the Ublephalaridae geckos, they close their

855
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: eyes and blink, much like we do. The gecko that

856
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: my child has, a leopard gecko, is one of these geckos.

857
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: So you know, this gecko can blink his little eyes.

858
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure that I've actually observed him licking

859
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 2: his own eyes, but according to the literature, he can

860
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: and does do so. I just I don't watch him

861
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: all the time. I don't know what he's up to

862
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: most of the day.

863
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 3: Does the cat watch him?

864
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: No, they don't interact. We don't want to encourage that anyway.

865
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: They're in their own little worlds, you know. Though one's

866
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 2: name is Waffles and the other's name is mochi, so

867
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: they're kind they're kind of siblings in that regard. So anyway,

868
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: we've discussed the blithelarid geckos. The non eu blifferid geckos

869
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 2: cannot move their eyelids. They have a structure called a

870
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 2: spectacle or brill that covers the eye and it protects

871
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: it from abrasian and dryness. Bauer describes it as derived

872
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: from a transparent lower eyelid that has become fused with

873
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,720
Speaker 2: the upper eyelid, so a trans and disc positioned directly

874
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 2: over the eye, and it's it's very much you know,

875
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: it's sometimes described as being like a scale. And indeed

876
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: it is part of the gecko's skin. So when the

877
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: gecko sheds its skin, which it will eventually eat. That's

878
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: one of the magical things of having a pet gecko

879
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: is when he goes into his hide to shed, he's

880
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: going to clean all that up. He's not going to

881
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: let any of that god of waste. But when he

882
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: does shed, that eyelid is going to come off with it.

883
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: I believe it becomes like you can tell, it becomes

884
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 2: like kind of translucent, or you know, not translucent, becomes

885
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: kind of like gray. Perhaps before it comes off Wow

886
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 2: delicious now. Additionally, some of these geckos also have eyelid

887
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 2: like structures called extra briller fringes that partially cover the

888
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 2: upper portion of the eye and can be partially raised

889
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 2: and lower, but they're not fold it's either way. The

890
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: main function of self eyelid licking is to keep things

891
00:50:56,239 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: clean and clear. However, they'll also just lick their eyes

892
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 2: and faces to drink water droplets off their face. If

893
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 2: they have water on there, why not, you know, free drink.

894
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: They've also been observed licking their own face after eating

895
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 2: or running, basically some sort of strenuous activity, but the

896
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:19,280
Speaker 2: reason for this isn't entirely understood. So in eating, of course,

897
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: bear in mind we're talking about geckos. They are little predators.

898
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: They are eating live prey, so that there's an endurance

899
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: aspect to that as well. Elsewhere in the book, Bauer

900
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: notes that geckos often lick one another during courtship, and

901
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: this is likely both tactile and chemical communication, with molecules

902
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: on the tongue transferred to their vomeroonasal organ to then

903
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 2: crunch the data about potential mates.

904
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 3: Oh coming back to like the like the snakes. Yeah, yeah,

905
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 3: the Jacobson's organ.

906
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

907
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: So if you have a gecko out there, you know,

908
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: to watch them a little extra in the next couple

909
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: of days. See, first of all, recall what sort of

910
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 2: gecko you have, and see what sort of eye licking

911
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: us up to. And if you can lick your own eyeball,

912
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: don't do it. For starters. I encountered similar things looking

913
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,920
Speaker 2: into this, the idea of humans locking eyeballs, because for

914
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 2: a subset of the human population, there is a certain

915
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: eroticism to the licking of another human beings eye balls. Yeah,

916
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 2: but you know, I mean, there's there's room for everything.

917
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: I'm not going to shame anybody, but.

918
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 3: This is judging. I'm just surprised.

919
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: But this is not recommended by health experts. It's it

920
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: kind of comes back to the dog looking a wound scenario.

921
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, we have better ways to attend to

922
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: the cleanliness of our eyes. So no need to have

923
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: your eyes licked by even you know, even a trusted lover.

924
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: But if you were a get go, I mean, go

925
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: at it.

926
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 3: It's your way of life.

927
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: All right. We're going to go and close the book there,

928
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 2: but we will be back so tune in for more

929
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 2: episodes in the future. Just to remind it of the

930
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primary science and culture

931
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 2: podcasts with core episodes and Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays

932
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: we do a short form episode, and on Fridays we

933
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

934
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

935
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

936
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

937
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

938
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

939
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

940
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

941
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,440
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942
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:38,320
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943
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:56,400
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