WEBVTT - What's the Science Behind the Perfect Party? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.800 Guess what will? What's that mango? So you know, I 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.480 don't normally suffer from fomo, but every once in a 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.320 while I hear about a historic party I wasn't invited to. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:10.840 I'm pretty sure you already told me about this. Is 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.320 this the this is the Guilda Radner party right now? 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:15.920 I mean I do talk about the party a lot, 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:17.920 and in fact, now that you mentioned it, I am 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.400 going to talk about it. There's this California party from 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.799 the oral history of Saturday Night Live, and they discuss it. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.880 It's basically every funny person in the world attended it. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:29.720 It was pretty crazy to read about some of those 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.080 original lessonel cast members and some of the people that 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.320 are just now such superstars. But you've got Steve Martin there, 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:39.240 and Monty Python, the SCTV folks like so many others 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.440 that were all in this one place. Yeah, And and 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:43.479 during the night, somewhere along the way, they realized that 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.320 Gilda Radner is really sick and this is probably the 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.479 last time anyone's going to see her. And when she 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.200 tries to make her exit and say her goodbyes, Bill 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.239 Murray just picks her up and uses her as this 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.800 like improv prop and makes her laugh really really hard, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.080 and then he passes her off to someone else and 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.560 they do that, and in the entire nights just spent 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.479 where people are just passing Guilder Radner around and using 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.080 her as an improv prop and making her laugh and 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:08.880 and just sounds like the best party in the world. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.520 But that wasn't the party I was talking about. So 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.319 this is way arts here and it feels way more 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.280 doable for us to get to. But in Berlin, this 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:20.360 artist through a same hype party, and the whole idea 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:22.800 was that you got everyone's hype forehand, and then he 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.480 constructed all these slip on platform shoes that were at 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.560 the entrance, and before you could come in you had 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.440 to put on these giant blue foam shoes, and once 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:32.600 you did, everyone who walked in the room was exactly 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.800 the same height six ft six six ft six, And 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.240 so what what's the point of this? So really it 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.760 was just an experiment to see how your behavior changes, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.160 Like you know how on TV talk shows the host 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.440 often has his chair jacked up super high and that 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.560 changes the dynamic. But the idea was, what if everyone 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:51.040 is exactly eye to eye, what does it mean when 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.480 we're all one height and I kind of love the 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.040 idea of how if you play with the settings, or 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.800 you know, you play with how you invite people, or 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.520 even how you provoke controversy at a party, you can 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:05.160 actually make for more meaningful and more memorable interactions. And 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:07.880 that's exactly what I guess. Pierre Parker authored the new 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.880 book The Art of Gathering is here to talk about. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:33.720 Let's dive in a their podcast. Listeners, Welcome to Part 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.160 Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.440 by my good friend man guest show Ticketer and sitting 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.040 behind that soundproof glass assembly a mix tape for his 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.840 next house party. I hear these are pretty raging events. 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.760 That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Yeah. I took 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:48.840 a peek at the tracks Tristan's flowing together. It's got 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.520 everything from like Beethoven B sides to Mahavish New Orchestra 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:57.000 to Spice Girls remixes. It's pretty um eclectic. I gotta 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.280 be honest, I wouldn't expect anything less from Tristan. But 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.760 you know, today's show is more than just setting the 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.880 mood with a soundtrack. We've got Prea Parker, author of 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.560 the new book The Art of Gathering on the show, Now, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.480 if you've ever wondered what's the right size for a party, 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:13.880 or how do you gently tell someone they're not invited 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.560 to a gathering? Or something even bigger, like how do 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.440 you bring NFL players and owners together in a way 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.320 that makes them both feel at ease and then has 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.519 them leaving experience feeling bonded. Pria has this amazing amount 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:30.079 of experience and insight. So Pria Parker, welcome to part 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.600 time Genius. Thank you for having me. Now. We're fascinated 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:35.480 by your background. You know, from the world you were 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.280 bridging as a child to the events you organize and 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.040 consult on now and I was curious before we get 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.320 into all the conversation around gatherings, I was hoping you 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.440 could just tell us a little bit about your background 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.920 and conflict resolution, and then of course how you grew 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.440 that background into starting Thrive Labs. So I was born 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.960 in Zimbabwe, perhaps uncommonplace to be born, and I come 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.160 from two different world My mother is Indian, grew up 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:06.360 in um in India, born and raised, and then immigrated 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.840 to the US for graduate school and met my white 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:13.840 American father in Iowa, where he's from. And for about 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.360 thirteen years they they were married, they traveled the world together. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.800 My mother is a cultural anthropologist and my father is 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:25.520 a hydrologist. And so I was born in Zimbabwe. And um, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.720 fast forward nine years from my birth and they separated. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.880 UM we were living in Virginia at the time, and 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:38.040 both within a few years remarried, and I ended up 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.920 I'm an only child. I ended up basically traveling back 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.080 and forth every two weeks between these two radically different households. 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:49.960 Um My my mother is Indian, remarried an english Man, 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:54.400 and that household was really a kind of very liberal, 0:04:54.920 --> 0:05:01.840 staunch democrat, vegetarian, kind of Buddhist Hindu athe isst household 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.600 um and kind of all the creatumas new a g 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.440 as my husband likes to say. And my um my 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.600 father remarried, and he remarried a white American Caucasian American 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:18.120 woman and they are Evangelical Christians. And basically I was 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.680 part of both of these households. And my um you know, 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.600 I think it deeply, deeply informs my work. And I 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.240 basically realized that these two families gather differently. They use 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:33.560 different you know, code words, they used a different language, um, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.560 And they have fundamentally radically different views of the world. 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.640 And yet I, as a biracial you know, half Indian, 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:46.000 half white American UM, young woman, was considered by both 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.239 families to be fully a part of their families. And 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.160 so I, UM, I guess it's no no surprise I 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.240 end up in the field of confic resolution. But I 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:01.279 that early experience really shaped me to um try to 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.440 kind of be curious about and better understand why and 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.839 how people come together and why and how people come apart. 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.440 That's pretty amazing. I do want to talk about how 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.120 you find common ground in these conflicts and how you 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.920 make gatherings interesting by by having the spice of personalities there. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.120 But before all that, I just want to talk about 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.960 gatherings and and I know you say it's important to 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.520 know why you're gathering, even when it's something familiar like 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.120 birthday parties or bridle showers, And would you talk a 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.720 little bit about that? Sure? So, UM, you know, I 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:33.920 wrote this book The Art of Gathering, How we meet 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.880 and why it matters. And one of the things that 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:40.280 I found over and over again, whether I was doing 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:46.000 research and interviewing you know Japanese tea ceremony masters or um, 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.640 you know, choreographers of circus is basically anybody who creates 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.880 group experiences for others. Was the ones that kind of 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.400 really took off and are transformative were the ones that 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.000 were very, very very clear on what their purpose was 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.240 and what their purpose was. And one of the things 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.719 that I've seen, particularly in our kind of more personal 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:10.400 private lives, is we often confuse categories of gathering for purpose. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.520 And so what I mean by that is, you know, 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.200 a birthday party, um, is actually not a purpose. I mean, 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.000 we assume a birthday party is to celebrate a birthday, 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:22.520 but that's what I would call a category. Or a 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:24.760 wedding is to sort of get married. That's a functional 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:28.480 category um. And when we assume, you know, two people 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.360 get engaged, they get very excited about having a wedding, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.240 or at least most people do, or they dread it 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.880 or both. Um. But one of the problems that happens 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.840 in a lot of wedding planning is once you kind 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:47.560 of start getting into the logistics arguments about size, about style, 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.960 about form um. And often one of the reasons that 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.280 a lot of conflict can happen whether between the couple 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.440 or between the couple, and they're kind of sets of parents. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.000 UM is because there actually have for ideas of what 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.600 the wedding is for and who the wedding is for, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.840 and so whenever you're gathering, the first question to ask, 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.600 particularly when you think that the reason is obvious, is 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.000 to say, what is this wedding for? And for some people, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.800 the wedding is to honor their parents and first and 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.200 foremost and kind of at some level have a almost 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.960 right of passage for the parents to say, Okay, we've 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.440 done our job and our children are out in the 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.520 world and they now are starting their families. And if 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.880 that's the case, then if you are debating who should 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.000 be on the guest list, you may want to choose 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.680 you know, your your mother's colleagues over your long lost 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.640 college buddy. In other cases, the purpose of the wedding 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.440 might be to you know, united tribe from very different 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.400 sides of the world or two very different walks of life, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.480 and the couple may say, you know what we want 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.600 to have our larger community know each other and UM 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.800 and hold us through this through this you know, marriage, UM, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.040 and our wedding is an opportunity for all of the 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.880 people who wouldn't normally show up to come together and 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.400 for us to make sure that they really meet and 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.320 have meaningful time together. And then you can talk about 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.800 the guest lists or the food or you know, the 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.720 table setting or even the place, because once you know 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.240 what the purposes, you no longer have all of these 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.920 other proxy wars battling out. Speaking of the invite list, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.000 one of the things you talk about, or that you say, 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.720 is that when everyone is invited, no one is invited. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.480 And you know, I'm curious, like why is excluding people 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.200 from gatherings so important? And and on that note, if 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.400 you are going to be excluding people, how do you 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.160 manage the feelings of the people that you exclude or 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.400 or the bobs as you call them. Yeah, it's a 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.600 great question. I mean, I think one of the things 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.920 that paradoxically kind of mess up or at least the 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.440 loot some of our gatherings is this sort of age 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:58.840 old adage the more the merrier um. And that saying 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.560 comes from a spear of generosity, which I you know, 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:07.400 strongly recommend to have whenever you bring people together. Um, 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.880 but whenever one of the things that that kind of 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.480 happens in a number of different gatherings. Is that when 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.640 we kind of invite anyone and everyone, it's hard to 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:22.959 have people connect over something specific. So, for example, if 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.840 you're having a birthday party and invite kind of everybody 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.160 you know, or or even as if it's a small 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.400 birthday party, but you invite people from all different parts 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.400 of your life, it may be hard for people to 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.000 kind of connect over you know, they can have to 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.080 figure out how what they want to connect on an 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:41.079 over Whereas if you get more specific, So for example, okay, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.440 this year for my birthday, I want to really focus 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.360 on reconnecting with my siblings, or I want to cut 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.240 out the people in my life that are bringing out 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.840 the parts of my life that I don't really want 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.920 to be doing anymore, and I want to really focus 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:57.920 on the people that are bringing out the best in me. 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.680 Um it gives you a clear sense of who you 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.000 actually want to invite and who who you may not 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.920 want to A friend of mine was recently invited by 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:09.800 his grandmother to for her birthday. He lives in the US, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.160 but his grandmother is in Germany. For him and his 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:17.439 adult siblings to go to their grandmother's birthday, and the 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:23.360 grandmother specifically said no partners, no children, and this was 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:29.640 an extremely controversial invitation. And um, the partners felt, you know, 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.800 some partners didn't care, some partners kind of felt badly. Um, 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.000 some of the adult grandchildren thought this was a very 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.080 strange invitation. Others didn't think anything of it. But at 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.880 the end of the day they decided to go. They said, 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:43.800 you know, his grandma is getting old, she's in her eighties. 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.480 Like it's kind of like a quirky, you know, quirky invitation. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.280 Let's just go. And I spoke with my friend when 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.079 he came back from this birthday party, which is basically 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.840 time with his adult siblings and cousins, and he said 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.719 it was one of the most beautiful times he'd ever 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.960 spent with his siblings and sense because they met for 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.640 the first time as adults without any of the other 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.600 roles that they play in their life, you know, husband 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.720 or wife, father, and so they were able to connect 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.120 as adults for the first time in the way that 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.360 they hadn't been able to since they were thirteen. And 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.160 this kind of slow, beautiful, open time with their grandmother 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.840 was this like gorgeous meaningful time together that they wouldn't 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:25.360 have been able to have or what at least would 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.719 have been different had they also been tending to their 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.440 spouses needs and their children's needs. And so it wasn't 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.000 that they should do that necessarily every year, but it 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:38.400 was actually the wisdom of the grandmother in exclusion and 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.000 being willing to take some heat for it that allowed 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.200 for some space for them to come out and kind 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.240 of play as adults. I love that, and I love 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.480 um that phrase used purpose as a bouncer because it 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.000 just feels really liberating, especially for someone like me who 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:56.440 does them to just wanted to invite everyone and uh 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:00.000 um and uh allow as many bobs as possible to come. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.160 But I do have one question about magic numbers, and 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.280 you talk about this a little bit. I'm always someone 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.960 who never knows the right amount of pizza order for things, 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.760 and I like knowing that they're like specific numbers that 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.760 are useful. Can you talk about like the certain types 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.600 of gatherings and how many people you need to make 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.679 those more effective? Yeah? Absolutely. You know, I'm a facilitator 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.760 and I work professionally with groups to um, you know, 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.640 to kind of have great transformative experiences for them. And 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.920 so groups of six tend to be great for great 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.880 conversation um when all six are you know, actively participating, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.400 so whether it's a dinner or whether it's a support group. 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.360 But the drawbacks of six is that if somebody isn't 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:47.559 fully engaged, you know, you can't really bear deadweight, um. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.280 And it's also difficult, if agan, to bring on your 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:54.480 purpose to have university of viewpoints. Eight to twelve is 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.840 kind of a great number for small group experience where 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:02.120 it's still lovely and um and if well facilitated, everyone 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.760 can talk. And above that, you know, that's a good 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.079 size for a kind of a buzzy party. People can 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.839 still look around and over a few hours can meet 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:13.440 you know, everybody in the room or the majority of people. 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.960 But it still feels kind of intimate, not overwhelming, and 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.000 and kind of works as a you know, as an 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.880 energetic gathering. You're probably not all sitting around table, but 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.840 you're milling around. And for weddings, you know, for my 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.360 wedding between a fifty and you still feel like you're 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.960 being held by kind of your community, um, but it's 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.280 not so overwhelming that you have no idea who's there. 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.360 We have lots more questions for Prea, but first let's 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:52.640 take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.160 and we're talking to author Prea Parker. You know, I'm 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.120 curious when you think about other meetings that maybe you're 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.200 not organizing, guessing it's pretty tough for you not to 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.360 it kind of post mortem those events. You know, you 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.680 think about recent gatherings that we see on TV, whether 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.640 it's the White House correspondence dinner or the way the 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.160 NFL owners got together to talk about, you know, the 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.520 players kneeling. Do you look at events like that and 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.880 think about how they could have been executed more effectively? Absolutely, 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.320 And to me that's actually, you know, one of the 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:27.359 things I think is most interesting, and I think, um, 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.480 you know, one thing that friends say to me after 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.280 they've read this book is that the Gift and the 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.560 Curses you never look at it gathering the same way. Again, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.240 to take the two examples you mentioned. With the first 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.520 the NFL meeting, it would actually happened a while ago. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.280 It was recently leaked to the press, which is why 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.680 some of the news Again, but last October, after Colin 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.320 Kaepernick started this kneeling, you know, these kneeling moments and 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.320 kind of this call to action to other nfls to 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:54.080 join NFL players, to join NFL owners and a number 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.720 of players to come to their headquarters in New York 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:58.800 to have a meeting about you know what they called 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.840 the quote kneeling issue and um. The tapes of that 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.120 meeting was recently released. You can listen to how the 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.600 meeting kind of went down. And first of all, it 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.600 was I think awesome that they fought to gather in 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.600 that way. So I would say the first thing is 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:18.320 that in a moment where there is multiple moments any 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:23.040 time in a game where uh player can choose to 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:28.280 kneel um and to activate a symbol that is extremely 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.200 controversial in the public eye and means different things to 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.320 different people, the idea for the owners to bring together 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.680 the players and to actually talk about this is a 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.680 great thing. So the first thing I'd say is, whoever 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.440 thought about doing that, is it was on the right track. Um. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.680 The second thing is I think once they actually decided 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.640 and I haven't spoken to anyone from there, so this 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.760 is all you know, me speaking about it from far. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.800 You know, one thing about a gathering is to think 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.840 about how you seek people. Where is the gathering they 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.920 decided to do the NFL headquarters. So on one hand, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:04.119 there's a lot of authority there um and gravitas. On 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:06.159 the other hand, it is the at some level of 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.639 the owner's turf. Um. And they sat in a circle 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.000 as far as I understand, with the players and the 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.879 owners sitting in every other chair to kind of show equality, 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.679 which I would say is also good. But when you 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.040 actually listen to the tapes of the conversation, the they're 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.920 broadly talking past each other um, And what I would 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.360 say is you zoom back out over and over again. 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.399 The players keep coming back to the idea that Kaepernick 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:32.960 is that they believe as being blackballed from the league. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.640 Kind of their language, not mine. Um. And the owners 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.679 basically are still are trying to focus on damage control, 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.679 and they're worrying that that this sort of as they 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.399 call the kneeling issue is actually literally affecting their bottom 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.480 line and his upsetting fans. And as you listen to 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.520 the conversation, they're basically talking past each other, and one 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.480 of them, what I would say is going, if I 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.080 was working at the organizers of that meeting, be two 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:55.960 step back ahead of time. And day. What is the 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:59.159 purpose of this meeting beyond kind of showing us, you know, 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:03.440 symbolic UM camaraderie. What do you actually want to get 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:04.679 out of this meeting? Do you want to come to 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.720 an agreement you on both sides to better understand where 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.119 they're coming from. Do you want to focus on kaepernack 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.560 because that might seem it seems like the players can't 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.600 uh get over the idea precondition to actually talking about 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.720 whether or not they're willing to kneel. Do you want 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:23.960 to have the focus of the agenda be kneeling? And 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.479 so basically, I think one of the problems with that 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.639 meeting was that it wasn't clear what its purpose was, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.080 and then the structure of how they actually allowed people 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.320 to talk. Basically, that doesn't seem like there was a structure, 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.359 and so it was a bit chaotic and they just 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.159 kept on talking in circles. And so so when I 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.399 look at a public gathering like that UM, one of 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.360 the things that I look at is, how could they 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.720 if they have this incredible moment where they're bringing together 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.160 UM players and owners for probably one of the first 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.679 times in the league's history, how do you actually structure 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.440 the gathering so that it meets its intended purpose and 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.600 what is the purpose were that gathering? You know, the 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.520 place you host a gathering allows for all sorts of 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.560 different options in how you gather. And it's not just logistical. 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:10.800 You know, if you have a room that if it's 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.040 twenty people, or room and it's people. But basically, any 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:17.439 time you're thinking about a gathering, you should have the 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.440 place in the space work for what how you want 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.240 people to show up and what you want them to 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.359 be thinking about. So let's just play with this NFL 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.399 meeting for a second. They hosted at the NFL headquarters. 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.400 Imagine had they, as you said, held it in Selma. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:37.280 Imagine if they held it in ferguston Um. Imagine if 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:42.760 they held it in a stadium with fans in the 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.760 seats watching as long as they agreed not to speak, 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.439 and then and they miked up the players and the 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.879 owners and actually had a dialogue about what does this 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:57.200 kneeling thing mean? And had the audience and NFL fans 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:01.439 agree to listen but not boo or cheer, you know. 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.480 Imagine if they had it in an owner's home over dinner. 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.880 Imagine if they had it at Colin Kaeperneck's mother's home. 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.520 Imagine if they had it at the Trump Hotel in Washington. 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:19.240 Each of these choices are should be very intentional choices, 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.879 and by the way, will be interpreted by people in 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.640 all sorts of different ways. I could see fans being 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.160 very angry that a meeting like that would be held 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:30.760 in um Selma or in Montgomery, or in any places 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.800 that have symbolic you know meaning. But all of that 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.439 to say is the same thing is true for you know, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.760 a birthday party or a book event or a a 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.359 a sales meeting. And one of the ways to really 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.360 think boldly about the way you gather is to think 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.800 about having your place really work for you. So if 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.000 you are having you know, I know a publisher that 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.960 had a book event in a cemetery, um and already, 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.720 no matter what they do in the cemetery, they've already 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:00.919 transformed people's relations ship to the book and to the 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.560 author and to how they remember that event. And so 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.480 one of the things to think about is you're gathering 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:08.000 is where and how and what kind of strange venues 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.920 might you want to gather in? You think about, um, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.120 what you're saying about the NFL thing like if they 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.760 had picked a venue like Selma, or the owners and 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.199 the players had walked across the bridge together or you 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.280 know that that that you could have really established a 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:25.200 very different feel for this meeting, and how interesting that 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.000 that could have been. You know, you talk about a 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.680 scene in the book where there are these four important 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.200 leaders that are attending a dinner event uh, the night 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.840