1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: Guess what will? What's that mango? So you know, I 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: don't normally suffer from fomo, but every once in a 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: while I hear about a historic party I wasn't invited to. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you already told me about this. Is 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: this the this is the Guilda Radner party right now? 6 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: I mean I do talk about the party a lot, 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: and in fact, now that you mentioned it, I am 8 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: going to talk about it. There's this California party from 9 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: the oral history of Saturday Night Live, and they discuss it. 10 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: It's basically every funny person in the world attended it. 11 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: It was pretty crazy to read about some of those 12 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: original lessonel cast members and some of the people that 13 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: are just now such superstars. But you've got Steve Martin there, 14 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: and Monty Python, the SCTV folks like so many others 15 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: that were all in this one place. Yeah, And and 16 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: during the night, somewhere along the way, they realized that 17 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 1: Gilda Radner is really sick and this is probably the 18 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: last time anyone's going to see her. And when she 19 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: tries to make her exit and say her goodbyes, Bill 20 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Murray just picks her up and uses her as this 21 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: like improv prop and makes her laugh really really hard, 22 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and then he passes her off to someone else and 23 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: they do that, and in the entire nights just spent 24 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: where people are just passing Guilder Radner around and using 25 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: her as an improv prop and making her laugh and 26 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: and just sounds like the best party in the world. 27 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: But that wasn't the party I was talking about. So 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: this is way arts here and it feels way more 29 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: doable for us to get to. But in Berlin, this 30 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: artist through a same hype party, and the whole idea 31 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: was that you got everyone's hype forehand, and then he 32 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: constructed all these slip on platform shoes that were at 33 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: the entrance, and before you could come in you had 34 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: to put on these giant blue foam shoes, and once 35 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: you did, everyone who walked in the room was exactly 36 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: the same height six ft six six ft six, And 37 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: so what what's the point of this? So really it 38 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: was just an experiment to see how your behavior changes, 39 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: Like you know how on TV talk shows the host 40 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: often has his chair jacked up super high and that 41 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: changes the dynamic. But the idea was, what if everyone 42 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: is exactly eye to eye, what does it mean when 43 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: we're all one height and I kind of love the 44 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: idea of how if you play with the settings, or 45 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, you play with how you invite people, or 46 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: even how you provoke controversy at a party, you can 47 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: actually make for more meaningful and more memorable interactions. And 48 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: that's exactly what I guess. Pierre Parker authored the new 49 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: book The Art of Gathering is here to talk about. 50 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Let's dive in a their podcast. Listeners, Welcome to Part 51 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm joined 52 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: by my good friend man guest show Ticketer and sitting 53 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: behind that soundproof glass assembly a mix tape for his 54 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: next house party. I hear these are pretty raging events. 55 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. Yeah. I took 56 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: a peek at the tracks Tristan's flowing together. It's got 57 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: everything from like Beethoven B sides to Mahavish New Orchestra 58 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: to Spice Girls remixes. It's pretty um eclectic. I gotta 59 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: be honest, I wouldn't expect anything less from Tristan. But 60 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, today's show is more than just setting the 61 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: mood with a soundtrack. We've got Prea Parker, author of 62 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: the new book The Art of Gathering on the show, Now, 63 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: if you've ever wondered what's the right size for a party, 64 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: or how do you gently tell someone they're not invited 65 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: to a gathering? Or something even bigger, like how do 66 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: you bring NFL players and owners together in a way 67 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: that makes them both feel at ease and then has 68 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: them leaving experience feeling bonded. Pria has this amazing amount 69 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: of experience and insight. So Pria Parker, welcome to part 70 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: time Genius. Thank you for having me. Now. We're fascinated 71 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: by your background. You know, from the world you were 72 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: bridging as a child to the events you organize and 73 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: consult on now and I was curious before we get 74 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: into all the conversation around gatherings, I was hoping you 75 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: could just tell us a little bit about your background 76 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: and conflict resolution, and then of course how you grew 77 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: that background into starting Thrive Labs. So I was born 78 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe, perhaps uncommonplace to be born, and I come 79 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: from two different world My mother is Indian, grew up 80 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: in um in India, born and raised, and then immigrated 81 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: to the US for graduate school and met my white 82 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: American father in Iowa, where he's from. And for about 83 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: thirteen years they they were married, they traveled the world together. 84 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: My mother is a cultural anthropologist and my father is 85 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: a hydrologist. And so I was born in Zimbabwe. And um, 86 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: fast forward nine years from my birth and they separated. 87 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: UM we were living in Virginia at the time, and 88 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: both within a few years remarried, and I ended up 89 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm an only child. I ended up basically traveling back 90 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: and forth every two weeks between these two radically different households. 91 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: Um My my mother is Indian, remarried an english Man, 92 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: and that household was really a kind of very liberal, 93 00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: staunch democrat, vegetarian, kind of Buddhist Hindu athe isst household 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: um and kind of all the creatumas new a g 95 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: as my husband likes to say. And my um my 96 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: father remarried, and he remarried a white American Caucasian American 97 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: woman and they are Evangelical Christians. And basically I was 98 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: part of both of these households. And my um you know, 99 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: I think it deeply, deeply informs my work. And I 100 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: basically realized that these two families gather differently. They use 101 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: different you know, code words, they used a different language, um, 102 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: And they have fundamentally radically different views of the world. 103 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: And yet I, as a biracial you know, half Indian, 104 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: half white American UM, young woman, was considered by both 105 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 1: families to be fully a part of their families. And 106 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: so I, UM, I guess it's no no surprise I 107 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: end up in the field of confic resolution. But I 108 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: that early experience really shaped me to um try to 109 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: kind of be curious about and better understand why and 110 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: how people come together and why and how people come apart. 111 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing. I do want to talk about how 112 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: you find common ground in these conflicts and how you 113 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: make gatherings interesting by by having the spice of personalities there. 114 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: But before all that, I just want to talk about 115 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: gatherings and and I know you say it's important to 116 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: know why you're gathering, even when it's something familiar like 117 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: birthday parties or bridle showers, And would you talk a 118 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: little bit about that? Sure? So, UM, you know, I 119 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: wrote this book The Art of Gathering, How we meet 120 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: and why it matters. And one of the things that 121 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: I found over and over again, whether I was doing 122 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: research and interviewing you know Japanese tea ceremony masters or um, 123 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: you know, choreographers of circus is basically anybody who creates 124 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: group experiences for others. Was the ones that kind of 125 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: really took off and are transformative were the ones that 126 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: were very, very very clear on what their purpose was 127 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: and what their purpose was. And one of the things 128 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: that I've seen, particularly in our kind of more personal 129 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: private lives, is we often confuse categories of gathering for purpose. 130 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: And so what I mean by that is, you know, 131 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: a birthday party, um, is actually not a purpose. I mean, 132 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: we assume a birthday party is to celebrate a birthday, 133 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: but that's what I would call a category. Or a 134 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: wedding is to sort of get married. That's a functional 135 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: category um. And when we assume, you know, two people 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: get engaged, they get very excited about having a wedding, 137 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: or at least most people do, or they dread it 138 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: or both. Um. But one of the problems that happens 139 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: in a lot of wedding planning is once you kind 140 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: of start getting into the logistics arguments about size, about style, 141 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: about form um. And often one of the reasons that 142 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: a lot of conflict can happen whether between the couple 143 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: or between the couple, and they're kind of sets of parents. 144 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: UM is because there actually have for ideas of what 145 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: the wedding is for and who the wedding is for, 146 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: and so whenever you're gathering, the first question to ask, 147 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: particularly when you think that the reason is obvious, is 148 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: to say, what is this wedding for? And for some people, 149 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: the wedding is to honor their parents and first and 150 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: foremost and kind of at some level have a almost 151 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: right of passage for the parents to say, Okay, we've 152 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: done our job and our children are out in the 153 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: world and they now are starting their families. And if 154 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: that's the case, then if you are debating who should 155 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: be on the guest list, you may want to choose 156 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: you know, your your mother's colleagues over your long lost 157 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: college buddy. In other cases, the purpose of the wedding 158 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: might be to you know, united tribe from very different 159 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: sides of the world or two very different walks of life, 160 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: and the couple may say, you know what we want 161 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: to have our larger community know each other and UM 162 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: and hold us through this through this you know, marriage, UM, 163 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: and our wedding is an opportunity for all of the 164 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: people who wouldn't normally show up to come together and 165 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: for us to make sure that they really meet and 166 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: have meaningful time together. And then you can talk about 167 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: the guest lists or the food or you know, the 168 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: table setting or even the place, because once you know 169 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: what the purposes, you no longer have all of these 170 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: other proxy wars battling out. Speaking of the invite list, 171 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: one of the things you talk about, or that you say, 172 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: is that when everyone is invited, no one is invited. 173 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm curious, like why is excluding people 174 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: from gatherings so important? And and on that note, if 175 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: you are going to be excluding people, how do you 176 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: manage the feelings of the people that you exclude or 177 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: or the bobs as you call them. Yeah, it's a 178 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 1: great question. I mean, I think one of the things 179 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: that paradoxically kind of mess up or at least the 180 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: loot some of our gatherings is this sort of age 181 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: old adage the more the merrier um. And that saying 182 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: comes from a spear of generosity, which I you know, 183 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: strongly recommend to have whenever you bring people together. Um, 184 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: but whenever one of the things that that kind of 185 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: happens in a number of different gatherings. Is that when 186 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: we kind of invite anyone and everyone, it's hard to 187 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: have people connect over something specific. So, for example, if 188 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: you're having a birthday party and invite kind of everybody 189 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, or or even as if it's a small 190 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: birthday party, but you invite people from all different parts 191 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: of your life, it may be hard for people to 192 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: kind of connect over you know, they can have to 193 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: figure out how what they want to connect on an 194 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: over Whereas if you get more specific, So for example, okay, 195 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: this year for my birthday, I want to really focus 196 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: on reconnecting with my siblings, or I want to cut 197 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: out the people in my life that are bringing out 198 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: the parts of my life that I don't really want 199 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: to be doing anymore, and I want to really focus 200 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: on the people that are bringing out the best in me. 201 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: Um it gives you a clear sense of who you 202 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: actually want to invite and who who you may not 203 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: want to A friend of mine was recently invited by 204 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: his grandmother to for her birthday. He lives in the US, 205 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: but his grandmother is in Germany. For him and his 206 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: adult siblings to go to their grandmother's birthday, and the 207 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: grandmother specifically said no partners, no children, and this was 208 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: an extremely controversial invitation. And um, the partners felt, you know, 209 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: some partners didn't care, some partners kind of felt badly. Um, 210 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: some of the adult grandchildren thought this was a very 211 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: strange invitation. Others didn't think anything of it. But at 212 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: the end of the day they decided to go. They said, 213 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, his grandma is getting old, she's in her eighties. 214 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: Like it's kind of like a quirky, you know, quirky invitation. 215 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: Let's just go. And I spoke with my friend when 216 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: he came back from this birthday party, which is basically 217 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: time with his adult siblings and cousins, and he said 218 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: it was one of the most beautiful times he'd ever 219 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: spent with his siblings and sense because they met for 220 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: the first time as adults without any of the other 221 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: roles that they play in their life, you know, husband 222 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: or wife, father, and so they were able to connect 223 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: as adults for the first time in the way that 224 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: they hadn't been able to since they were thirteen. And 225 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: this kind of slow, beautiful, open time with their grandmother 226 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: was this like gorgeous meaningful time together that they wouldn't 227 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: have been able to have or what at least would 228 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 1: have been different had they also been tending to their 229 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: spouses needs and their children's needs. And so it wasn't 230 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: that they should do that necessarily every year, but it 231 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: was actually the wisdom of the grandmother in exclusion and 232 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: being willing to take some heat for it that allowed 233 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: for some space for them to come out and kind 234 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: of play as adults. I love that, and I love 235 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: um that phrase used purpose as a bouncer because it 236 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: just feels really liberating, especially for someone like me who 237 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: does them to just wanted to invite everyone and uh 238 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: um and uh allow as many bobs as possible to come. 239 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: But I do have one question about magic numbers, and 240 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: you talk about this a little bit. I'm always someone 241 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: who never knows the right amount of pizza order for things, 242 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: and I like knowing that they're like specific numbers that 243 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: are useful. Can you talk about like the certain types 244 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: of gatherings and how many people you need to make 245 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: those more effective? Yeah? Absolutely. You know, I'm a facilitator 246 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: and I work professionally with groups to um, you know, 247 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: to kind of have great transformative experiences for them. And 248 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: so groups of six tend to be great for great 249 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: conversation um when all six are you know, actively participating, 250 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: so whether it's a dinner or whether it's a support group. 251 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: But the drawbacks of six is that if somebody isn't 252 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: fully engaged, you know, you can't really bear deadweight, um. 253 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: And it's also difficult, if agan, to bring on your 254 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: purpose to have university of viewpoints. Eight to twelve is 255 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: kind of a great number for small group experience where 256 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: it's still lovely and um and if well facilitated, everyone 257 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: can talk. And above that, you know, that's a good 258 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 1: size for a kind of a buzzy party. People can 259 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: still look around and over a few hours can meet 260 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, everybody in the room or the majority of people. 261 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: But it still feels kind of intimate, not overwhelming, and 262 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: and kind of works as a you know, as an 263 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: energetic gathering. You're probably not all sitting around table, but 264 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: you're milling around. And for weddings, you know, for my 265 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: wedding between a fifty and you still feel like you're 266 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: being held by kind of your community, um, but it's 267 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: not so overwhelming that you have no idea who's there. 268 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: We have lots more questions for Prea, but first let's 269 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: take a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, 270 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: and we're talking to author Prea Parker. You know, I'm 271 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: curious when you think about other meetings that maybe you're 272 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: not organizing, guessing it's pretty tough for you not to 273 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: it kind of post mortem those events. You know, you 274 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: think about recent gatherings that we see on TV, whether 275 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: it's the White House correspondence dinner or the way the 276 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: NFL owners got together to talk about, you know, the 277 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: players kneeling. Do you look at events like that and 278 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: think about how they could have been executed more effectively? Absolutely, 279 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: And to me that's actually, you know, one of the 280 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,359 Speaker 1: things I think is most interesting, and I think, um, 281 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, one thing that friends say to me after 282 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: they've read this book is that the Gift and the 283 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: Curses you never look at it gathering the same way. Again, 284 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: to take the two examples you mentioned. With the first 285 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: the NFL meeting, it would actually happened a while ago. 286 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: It was recently leaked to the press, which is why 287 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: some of the news Again, but last October, after Colin 288 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: Kaepernick started this kneeling, you know, these kneeling moments and 289 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of this call to action to other nfls to 290 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: join NFL players, to join NFL owners and a number 291 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: of players to come to their headquarters in New York 292 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: to have a meeting about you know what they called 293 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: the quote kneeling issue and um. The tapes of that 294 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: meeting was recently released. You can listen to how the 295 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: meeting kind of went down. And first of all, it 296 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: was I think awesome that they fought to gather in 297 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: that way. So I would say the first thing is 298 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: that in a moment where there is multiple moments any 299 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: time in a game where uh player can choose to 300 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: kneel um and to activate a symbol that is extremely 301 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: controversial in the public eye and means different things to 302 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: different people, the idea for the owners to bring together 303 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: the players and to actually talk about this is a 304 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: great thing. So the first thing I'd say is, whoever 305 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: thought about doing that, is it was on the right track. Um. 306 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: The second thing is I think once they actually decided 307 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: and I haven't spoken to anyone from there, so this 308 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: is all you know, me speaking about it from far. 309 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, one thing about a gathering is to think 310 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: about how you seek people. Where is the gathering they 311 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: decided to do the NFL headquarters. So on one hand, 312 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: there's a lot of authority there um and gravitas. On 313 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: the other hand, it is the at some level of 314 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: the owner's turf. Um. And they sat in a circle 315 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: as far as I understand, with the players and the 316 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: owners sitting in every other chair to kind of show equality, 317 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: which I would say is also good. But when you 318 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: actually listen to the tapes of the conversation, the they're 319 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: broadly talking past each other um, And what I would 320 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,360 Speaker 1: say is you zoom back out over and over again. 321 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: The players keep coming back to the idea that Kaepernick 322 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: is that they believe as being blackballed from the league. 323 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: Kind of their language, not mine. Um. And the owners 324 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: basically are still are trying to focus on damage control, 325 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: and they're worrying that that this sort of as they 326 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: call the kneeling issue is actually literally affecting their bottom 327 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: line and his upsetting fans. And as you listen to 328 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: the conversation, they're basically talking past each other, and one 329 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: of them, what I would say is going, if I 330 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: was working at the organizers of that meeting, be two 331 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: step back ahead of time. And day. What is the 332 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: purpose of this meeting beyond kind of showing us, you know, 333 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: symbolic UM camaraderie. What do you actually want to get 334 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: out of this meeting? Do you want to come to 335 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: an agreement you on both sides to better understand where 336 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: they're coming from. Do you want to focus on kaepernack 337 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: because that might seem it seems like the players can't 338 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: uh get over the idea precondition to actually talking about 339 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: whether or not they're willing to kneel. Do you want 340 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: to have the focus of the agenda be kneeling? And 341 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,479 Speaker 1: so basically, I think one of the problems with that 342 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: meeting was that it wasn't clear what its purpose was, 343 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: and then the structure of how they actually allowed people 344 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: to talk. Basically, that doesn't seem like there was a structure, 345 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: and so it was a bit chaotic and they just 346 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: kept on talking in circles. And so so when I 347 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: look at a public gathering like that UM, one of 348 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: the things that I look at is, how could they 349 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: if they have this incredible moment where they're bringing together 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: UM players and owners for probably one of the first 351 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: times in the league's history, how do you actually structure 352 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: the gathering so that it meets its intended purpose and 353 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: what is the purpose were that gathering? You know, the 354 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: place you host a gathering allows for all sorts of 355 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: different options in how you gather. And it's not just logistical. 356 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: You know, if you have a room that if it's 357 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: twenty people, or room and it's people. But basically, any 358 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: time you're thinking about a gathering, you should have the 359 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: place in the space work for what how you want 360 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: people to show up and what you want them to 361 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: be thinking about. So let's just play with this NFL 362 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: meeting for a second. They hosted at the NFL headquarters. 363 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: Imagine had they, as you said, held it in Selma. 364 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: Imagine if they held it in ferguston Um. Imagine if 365 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: they held it in a stadium with fans in the 366 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: seats watching as long as they agreed not to speak, 367 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: and then and they miked up the players and the 368 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: owners and actually had a dialogue about what does this 369 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: kneeling thing mean? And had the audience and NFL fans 370 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: agree to listen but not boo or cheer, you know. 371 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: Imagine if they had it in an owner's home over dinner. 372 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: Imagine if they had it at Colin Kaeperneck's mother's home. 373 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: Imagine if they had it at the Trump Hotel in Washington. 374 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: Each of these choices are should be very intentional choices, 375 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: and by the way, will be interpreted by people in 376 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: all sorts of different ways. I could see fans being 377 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: very angry that a meeting like that would be held 378 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: in um Selma or in Montgomery, or in any places 379 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: that have symbolic you know meaning. But all of that 380 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: to say is the same thing is true for you know, 381 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: a birthday party or a book event or a a 382 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: a sales meeting. And one of the ways to really 383 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: think boldly about the way you gather is to think 384 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: about having your place really work for you. So if 385 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: you are having you know, I know a publisher that 386 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: had a book event in a cemetery, um and already, 387 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: no matter what they do in the cemetery, they've already 388 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: transformed people's relations ship to the book and to the 389 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: author and to how they remember that event. And so 390 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: one of the things to think about is you're gathering 391 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: is where and how and what kind of strange venues 392 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: might you want to gather in? You think about, um, 393 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: what you're saying about the NFL thing like if they 394 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: had picked a venue like Selma, or the owners and 395 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: the players had walked across the bridge together or you 396 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: know that that that you could have really established a 397 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: very different feel for this meeting, and how interesting that 398 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: that could have been. You know, you talk about a 399 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: scene in the book where there are these four important 400 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: leaders that are attending a dinner event uh, the night 401 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: before a meeting, and there's this fifth really important world 402 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: leader who wants to attend it, but doesn't want to 403 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: go to the dinner, just wants to go to the 404 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: meeting the next day. I was curious, like, how do 405 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: you convince self important people, or you know, even people 406 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: who are gathering an event but are shy to fully 407 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: participate and buy into sort of the cadence of the 408 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: meeting and the various events that that are orchestrated or 409 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: plan for a reason. I mean, so it's a great question, 410 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: and what you're kind of talking about at some level 411 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: is the larger question of legitimacy. So in the example 412 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: in the book, we had a meeting on a Wednesday, 413 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,199 Speaker 1: let's say, and um, it was a meeting where it 414 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: was important that the leaders that were coming together basically 415 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: interacted in a way that they wouldn't normally otherwise and 416 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: started to come with the spirit of openness. And so 417 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that I did with had a 418 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: dinner the night before that was more like a dinner 419 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: party or even like a wedding party than a than 420 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: a kind of a work meeting. You know, there's candles 421 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: and um wine and like stories and structure and um. 422 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: And there was a state leader who couldn't make the 423 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: dinner the night before, or didn't want to or wasn't 424 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: willing to kind of come. And at some level, one 425 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: of the things that you are grappling with when you're 426 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: designing and experience for other people, UM is communicating with them. 427 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: One that is important but to whether or not your 428 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: your event kind of has legitimacy um and and what 429 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: I mean by that is whether or not people are 430 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: buying into your vision of what this is for and 431 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: whether they need to be there or not. At any 432 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: time you know two or more people come together, you know, 433 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: decisions need to be made often over the course of 434 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: any type of gathering, and basically who's in charge and 435 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: who needs you know, if if there's conflicts, how do 436 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: you actually deal with it? And so at some level 437 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: depending on the context. So in an organization, if you're 438 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: doing a gathering and there's a dinner the night before, UM, 439 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: in part because people have signed contracts and the authority 440 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: lies with the UM. You know, with the boss, you 441 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: can actually require people to show up to a dinner. 442 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, that shouldn't be used lightly. So 443 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: I often say when I'm working with companies and they 444 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: say we can require people to attend the night before, 445 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: I often say, please, don't require them. I want them 446 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: to come of their own volition, because people behave very 447 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: differently if they're required to be somewhere versus if they 448 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: decide that they want to go. UM. And similarly, you know, 449 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: with a wedding or with with with a kind of 450 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: social gathering. UM. You know, to me, if people aren't 451 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: coming to whatever it is you you planned, I always say, like, 452 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: pick up the phone and call them, UM, you know, 453 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: if this is something that's important to you and explain 454 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: to them you know what it is, and UM on 455 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: why you'd love for them to be there. Texts, you know, email, Instagram, 456 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: everybody's online, but I rarely hear anybody's voice anymore. And 457 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: UM and actually just making a phone call. It goes 458 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: a long way. You know. I was amused by the 459 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: list that you put together of the fifteen ways to 460 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: make conferences suck less. And and because you know, Mango 461 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: and I have been to so many conferences over the years, 462 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: and so many terrible conferences over the years, and you know, 463 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: I don't envy those that have to put them together, 464 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: because it does seem like a really difficult thing to 465 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: put together a good conference, and so when you go 466 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: to a great one, it's really that much more impressive. 467 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: And I'm curious if you could share just a few 468 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: of your favorite ideas for how to put together this 469 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: type of active gathering. Mm hmm. It's a great question. 470 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: And you know there are conferences are on the rise, 471 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: and more and more people, um, More and more companies 472 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: are starting to have you know, confidence wings and conference arms. 473 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: Media companies are starting to have live events. So this 474 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: is something that work. I you know, I think we're 475 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: going to see more and more of So it's a 476 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: really important question. I would just say, kind of simply, 477 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: the two principles that I think make conferences fantastic um our, 478 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: intimacy and heat and UM. What I mean by that 479 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: one on the intimacy side. You know, there's all these 480 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: studies that show that, um, that people can connect much 481 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: more when you share your vulnerability and things that you 482 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: aren't working as well. Burnee Brown Um and sociologists like 483 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: her popularized these ideas about intimacy often between two people, 484 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: and I would just take that principle and apply it 485 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: to groups into larger, too larger gatherings. So, UM, when 486 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: a couple of a couple of things under intimacy, the 487 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: first is um to have people share in small groups 488 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: or in large things that aren't working rather than things 489 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: that are. So one of the things that I talked 490 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: about in the book is, you know, rather than training 491 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: everybody to kind of give their two minutes stumps speech 492 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: and all of you know, like how great you are, 493 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: what you're doing, how kind of clients that you serving, 494 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: or you know, whatever it is that you're doing your company, 495 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: to flip it around and give a sprout speech which 496 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: basically sharing all of the things in your work that 497 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: you actually are still curious about that you don't know 498 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: the answers to that you're trying to figure out. And 499 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: people are much more interested in kind of wanting to 500 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: know what's not going well and how they may actually help. UM. 501 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: One of the groups that does this well that I've 502 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: come across as the House of Genius, and they have 503 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: read it about in the book UM. They have gatherings 504 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: all over the world where they invite ten or twelve 505 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: people to come together to constitute what they call a 506 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: house UM and UH invite two or three entrepreneurs to 507 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: come in and get forty five minutes each to talk 508 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: about what's not working in their business or what they 509 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: need help with. And then UM those twelve people give 510 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: them all sorts of advice and ideas. It's a very 511 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: structured process, UM, but basically it ends up being, you know, 512 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: a really interesting evening because implicitly you're saying I need help, 513 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: and we tend to want to help each other. The 514 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: second thing is to do dinners where people share stories 515 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: and experiences from their life. UM. That demonstrates some kind 516 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: of struggle or some kind of um, you know, confusion, 517 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: because we at the end of the day want to 518 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: connect with each other in meaningful ways. And so I 519 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: think conferences that allow both space but also structure for 520 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: people to share what's actually going on in their life 521 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: to me are much more interesting. And then the second 522 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: part is heat. And what I mean by that coming 523 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: as a confique resolution facilitator, is anything that kind of 524 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: gets people's temperature, you know, rising in the room. Um. 525 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: It can be things that are controversial but controversial that 526 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: still serve the purpose. So controversial for just kind of 527 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 1: controversy's sake isn't particularly interesting, um, but controversial when it 528 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: kind of taps the core values of a community can 529 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 1: be extremely invigorating. We tend to avoid the things that 530 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: we think might you know, rufflesome feathers, and actually from 531 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: a perspective of gathering, those are the ones that actually, 532 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: you know, people want to stay in the room for, 533 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: so if it's a you know, a church gathering. Um. 534 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,479 Speaker 1: One of the people interviewed for the book was a 535 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: secretary of the Society of Friends, basically Quaker communities, and 536 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: she said some of the best meetings that they had 537 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: had m this is the Philadelphia community Circle of Friends. 538 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: Society Friends was when they began to consciously have meetings 539 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: around whether or not to allow gay marriage in there 540 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: to acknowledge gay marriage in their communities, and um, rather 541 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: than avoiding it, they actually structured meetings around it. And 542 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: debates um in the Quaker format, which is if you're 543 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: moved to speak, speak and that you know, people come 544 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: alive when they're talking about and struggling with and listening 545 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: to one another about the things that most um define 546 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: them as a community. And I'm curious too about the 547 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: openings of conferences. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, 548 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, I think openings are extraordinarily important. And one 549 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: of the things that conferences can do is in the 550 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: first few moments any in any type of gathering, people 551 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: are walking in and wondering, you know, what's going on here? 552 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: Do I want to be here? What part of myself 553 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: do I show? Can I be jokey or should I 554 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: be more formal? And um? We as organizers often vastly 555 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: underestimate the importance of kind of setting the tone and 556 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: um and creating a environment where people have permission to 557 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: go up to each other and and find ways to 558 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: kind of go in and so UM. One of the 559 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: ways of a inference that I UM that I love 560 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: that I spoke to for this book is it's called 561 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: Spark Camp and it was started by five friends in 562 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: the media industry, and one of the things they do 563 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: early on their weekend gatherings. There there's their captive seventy people, 564 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: so that maintains an intimacy but still a buzz the 565 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: first night of the gathering, so I guess Friday night 566 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: they do introductions, you know, as many conferences do the 567 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: less than you would think. But the way they do 568 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: introductions is they take the weight off the guests for 569 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: having to introduce themselves and either be you know, stuck 570 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: in their humble brags or you know, all of the 571 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: awkward ways one wants to introduce oneself. And the conference 572 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: organizers give the conference what I think is such a gift, 573 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: which is they spend time ahead of time researching every 574 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: single one of their seventy guests, who often they don't 575 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: know themselves, and come up with these short, whimsical introductions. 576 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: And they gathered together in a room and they actually 577 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: read aloud each person's introduction without naming them. Um, and 578 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: they say, when you hear your helf stand and so 579 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: they may say, you know, this person met their husband 580 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: at a beekeeping convention and um. They are also one 581 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: of the foremost minds on artificial intelligence. They grew up 582 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: in Alaska, but actually because their parents were part of 583 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: the Air Force. They lived in twelve states before the 584 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: age of sixteen. And what happens is, you know, our 585 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: eyes are kind of darting around trying to figure out 586 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: who it is, but also you're not sure if there's 587 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: somebody else in the group that met their husband at 588 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: a beekeep being gone, you know, so sometimes you know, 589 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: two or three people stand up and then everyone laughs 590 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: and they have to kind of keep listening. And this 591 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: is brilliant exercise where it's interesting. Everybody is engaged because 592 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: you don't want to miss your own introduction, but everybody's 593 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: also engaged because there they're You're they're giving you seeds 594 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: of information that you can then go up to each 595 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: of the other sixty nine people in the room over 596 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: the course of the weekend and have three or four 597 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: different ways into conversation with them. And so they think 598 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: very beautifully about how do you early on give non 599 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: awkward or at least less awkward ways for people to 600 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: approach one another in meaningful ways about their work and 601 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: also about things that have nothing to do with their work. 602 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: More questions for PRIA after a quick break. I love 603 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: the idea too of you um sitting out and charting 604 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: out heat maps would you talk about in the book 605 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: and to orchestrate some of the heat But I'm also 606 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: curious about these two interesting events that you've pulled together. 607 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: One is fifteen Toasts and then these I'm here days, 608 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: And I was wondering if you could just talk a 609 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: little bit about that. Sure, So fifteen Toasts came from 610 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: this experience of going to events and having kind of 611 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: amazing people in the room, but feeling um that the 612 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: kind of modus operandi was showing off or or talking 613 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: about how great everything was. And specifically I was at 614 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: the World Economic Forum one of their annual meetings in 615 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: Abu Dhabi, and a colleague and I Tim Labret, who 616 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: were serving on the same council, realized that in all 617 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: of these meetings, even though we're supposed to be talking 618 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: about new models of leadership or values based leadership, it 619 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: tends to remain very heavy UM. And you know, or 620 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: is an opportunity for people to kind of promote their 621 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: company's latest initiative UM. And so we we we decided 622 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: to run an experiment where the night before we gathered 623 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: fifteen people from a number of the different councils and 624 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: invited them to come together over dinner off the record, 625 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: though UM we all agreed we could share what happened 626 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: at the dinner but not attributed to specific person. So 627 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: Chatham House Rules and fifteen Toasts basically was this um 628 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: experiment that we kind of made up along with my husband, 629 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: where everybody is asked to give a toast at some 630 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: point in the evening to a theme and you choose 631 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: the theme. The first one we ever did was what 632 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: is a good life? Not is what is the good life? 633 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: But what what makes for a good life? But you 634 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: can choose a theme that the group would be interested in. 635 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: It could be rebellion, it could be um borders, it 636 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: could be what does it mean to be American? It 637 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: could be anything. And over the course of the night, 638 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: people you know, clink their glass old school style, stand 639 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: up and share a story and experience from their life 640 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: UM that relates to the theme. And the only other 641 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: rule is that the last person has to sing their toast. 642 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: And what that does is it kind of speeds along 643 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: the toasts because basically most people used in the U 644 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: S context don't want to sing um, and so it's 645 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: this kind of playful way to get people to UM 646 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 1: do take a smaller risk, which is which is giving 647 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: their toasts. Um. And what happens over the course of 648 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: the night is you hear stories that are still along 649 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: a kind of organizing principle that people would never kind 650 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: of share in you know, in the in the context 651 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: like that, but when you hear about somebody you know, 652 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: falling in love for the first time or experiencing heartbreak. Um. 653 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: Or I remember one story that was shared in a 654 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: dinner that where the thing was strangers. Somebody shared that 655 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: their mother's life was saved because a stranger happened to 656 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: be walking past her. Their mother fainted, hit their head 657 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: on the ground, started bleeding. A stranger happened to walk 658 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 1: past them in the same moment called the police and 659 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: save their life. And because of that, the person sitting 660 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: at the table like existed, it was born. Um. There's 661 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: so much more after this dinner that you could go 662 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: and talk to, you know, talk to this person about 663 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: then if she simply told you that she was the 664 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: VP of sales that you know, such as such company. UM. 665 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,839 Speaker 1: And so what fifteen toasts does and you could use 666 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: any format, but it allows people to share stories and 667 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: experiences um that are kind of you know off the 668 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: perhaps theme of the conference or kind of selling something 669 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: um but basically makes them complicated and human, and most 670 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: people want to talk to other people who are complicated 671 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: in human, because that's what each of us are. The 672 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: book is called The Art of Gathering, How We Meet 673 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: and Why It Matters, and it's available this week. But Priya, 674 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much 675 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: for having me. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius 676 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: is a production of how stuff works and wouldn't be 677 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: possible without several brilliant people who do the important things 678 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan McNeil does the 679 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does 680 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: the MIXI MIXI sound. Jerry Rowland does the exact producer 681 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: thing gave. Louesier is our lead researcher, with support from 682 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas 683 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: Adams and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears. 684 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we 685 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: hope you'll subscribe, And if you really really like what 686 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: you've heard, maybe you could leave a good review for us. 687 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: Thanks for the points Jason him