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Speaker 1: Hi, Denise. I was thinking about the first time we

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Speaker 1: ever met, and I think I'm I think it was

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Speaker 1: when I had the talk show in La but it

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Speaker 1: may have even been before before that. Tell me what

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 2: I think we had dinner with Rina and a couple

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Speaker 2: other people and then we met.

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Speaker 3: I don't you wait?

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Speaker 1: Was it maybe at the Soho house We're not, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't, I don't know, but you were renting a place

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Speaker 2: in La I think for the summer.

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Speaker 1: That was around the same time, that was around the

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Speaker 1: talk show, and then you.

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Speaker 3: It was right before the talk show.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you came on. Jill Fritzo is both of

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Speaker 1: our publicists, so I'm now thinking she must have been there,

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Speaker 1: been back there with you, and I can't what would

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Speaker 1: have made you come on except for like a favor,

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Speaker 1: because it was probably a favorite of the show. It

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Speaker 1: was a test show, so some people like Justin Bieber

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Speaker 1: were doing it. It was crazy, guess because they were

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Speaker 1: doing favors to Ellen and.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to go on. It wasn't just for a favorite.

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Speaker 1: Well, I remember. I think it probably was like I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it was like seven or you were

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Speaker 1: You seemed guarded then and having met you since then

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Speaker 1: and before then, I've now been seven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going through a bad divorce. I remember,

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Speaker 2: And I'll refresh Jill's memory. Jill's here, Yeah, Jill's here.

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Speaker 3: Something happened.

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Speaker 2: I got a phone call in the dressing room, literally

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Speaker 2: right before I went out on your show.

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Speaker 1: About your situation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and I had a heart attack.

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Speaker 1: Okay, because I have to tell you. You agreed to

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Speaker 1: do it, and I had met you before and you

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Speaker 1: seemed stunned.

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Speaker 3: It was funny something happened.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Which you can't say what happened all these years.

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Speaker 3: Later, you know what?

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Speaker 1: Now I can, Okay, I just remember. It took a

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Speaker 1: real experience. I remember you were like, I was like,

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Speaker 1: does she know she's coming here? Like it was as

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Speaker 1: if someone put.

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Speaker 3: You know mark Berg? Yes, okay, I used.

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Speaker 1: To I was held on everybody. Mark Berg was a

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Speaker 1: manager of Charlie Sheen and a producer on Two and

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Speaker 1: a half Men, and years before that he used to

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Speaker 1: be I was his assistant, and he worked under Chris Blackwell,

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Speaker 1: if you guys know, he founded the Marleys and Island Records.

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Speaker 1: So I worked for mark Berg and he had to

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Speaker 1: let me go because his wife didn't want me working

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Speaker 1: for him. I found that out later, but I worked

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Speaker 1: for Mark Burg and years later I ran into him

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Speaker 1: and he told me he managed Charlie and he did

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Speaker 1: the Saw movies and produced Two and a half Men,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I didn't know you were

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Speaker 1: so big time.

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Speaker 2: So literally, right before I walked out, I got a

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Speaker 2: call that someone close to Charlie's circle was going to

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Speaker 2: hold a press conference and disclose his health situation. He's

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Speaker 2: been open to public right now about HIV, but at

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Speaker 2: the time he wasn't and he was doing anger management,

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Speaker 2: so it would literally I found I got that called

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds before I walked out on stage.

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Speaker 1: How crazy is that? Like in life, you have an

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Speaker 1: opinion of other people or as an experience, and it's

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Speaker 1: all these years later. I mean, I didn't have a

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Speaker 1: negative opinion, but I thought you were guarded. You don't

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Speaker 1: know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: It's behind closed doors.

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Speaker 1: Even in the life, if you even if you like

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Speaker 1: someone takes your parking spot and is a bitch about it,

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Speaker 1: you don't know what happened.

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Speaker 3: That happened. I know that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, because because I called Denise to get

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Speaker 1: everyone to where we are today. I've there are certain

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Speaker 1: people I just want to talk to. I feel like,

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Speaker 1: does anyone really know that person fully? And you're one

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Speaker 1: of these people to me that I feel like I've

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Speaker 1: met you and superficially we know each other for so

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Speaker 1: many years, but I don't really know you. And I've

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Speaker 1: always liked you, like you. My energy with you is

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Speaker 1: that i've liked you. So I don't remember if that

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Speaker 1: was six months or a year ago, but I called

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Speaker 1: you and I was like, would you ever do a

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Speaker 1: podcast together? Would you ever do something together? And we

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Speaker 1: were dabbling and talking about just experiences on reality TV

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Speaker 1: and being divorced and crazy crazy divorces in life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And then now it's and here we are and here

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Speaker 1: we are because you came to that dinner in La

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Speaker 1: and I ran into you and I mentioned it again,

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Speaker 1: and here we are. So thank you for being here,

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 3: For having me.

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Speaker 2: You're here, and I'm so glad we cleared up many

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Speaker 2: many years ago because.

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Speaker 1: I had a perception not that not that you weren't nice,

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Speaker 1: but you seemed none why not why.

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Speaker 3: I was there?

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Speaker 2: But I was having a heart attack inside and I

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Speaker 2: couldn't even think because it was not a good Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, no, I don't mean it in a bad way.

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Speaker 1: I just mean sometimes someone books an interview and then

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Speaker 1: might feel like they don't want to share, And I

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Speaker 1: just thought, oh, interesting. So I said it to Jill

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Speaker 1: and she's like, She'll said to me, she's an open book.

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Speaker 1: I'm like she is, so anyway, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Here's a little distracted. Yeah, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you've had a really outrageous, incredible life. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think about you coming from Illinois, midwestern girl. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I remember that your dad moved into your house. Is

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Speaker 1: it in Calabascia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, after my mom passed away. My parents were together

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Speaker 2: since my mom was seventeen and my dad was twenty

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Speaker 2: well actually she was sixteen when they got together, but

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Speaker 2: since she was a teenage young and they stayed together

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Speaker 2: until you know, my mom passed and she was very young,

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Speaker 2: and my dad was going to come for two weeks

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Speaker 2: and was with us for five years, which was such

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Speaker 2: a blessing that my daughters got to have such a wonderful,

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Speaker 2: you know, parental male parental figure in their life, which

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Speaker 2: they needed at that time.

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Speaker 3: Especially, So I am so blessed.

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Speaker 2: That he was able to and did stay, you know,

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Speaker 2: for as long as he did. And you know, I

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Speaker 2: had such a huge impact on my daughter's early years

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Speaker 2: of growing up.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. And I think about you growing up in

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Speaker 1: a Midwestern environment. Did you have a quote unquote normal childhood?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, I mean we were actually a

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Speaker 2: Nielsen family and a lot of people don't know this.

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Speaker 2: Born in after whatever nineteen eighty or something. Nielsen were

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Speaker 2: these boxes that they would put back in the day

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Speaker 2: on family's television to record what a typical family. We

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Speaker 2: were a family, four, middle to lower class family, and

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Speaker 2: they wanted to see what we were watching. And I'll

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Speaker 2: never forget when the people showed up and gave it

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Speaker 2: to my parents.

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Speaker 1: So funny that happen they show up at the door.

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Speaker 3: I don't you know what.

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Speaker 2: I have to ask my dad how that happened, because

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Speaker 2: that's now that I think, like, that's weird, Like why

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Speaker 2: would you let these strangers into our house and put

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Speaker 2: a box on our.

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Speaker 1: Right in twenty twenty three, that would be like, what

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Speaker 1: are you recording?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, no, we were a typical all American family

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Speaker 2: of four, went to church every Sunday, had dinner together

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Speaker 2: every night at six pm.

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Speaker 3: So that was our family.

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Speaker 1: That would be a great sitcom or a really show

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Speaker 1: called and the name is actually the Nielsen's exactly. It's

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Speaker 1: a good idea for a show, to.

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Speaker 3: Be honest, Well, you should produce that.

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Speaker 1: I love to. I would love to. What were you

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Speaker 1: guys watching? What does the name?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So back then, I remember my sister and I

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Speaker 2: we were allowed to stay up late on Friday night

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Speaker 2: nights to watch Dallas, Okay? And I actually told my

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Speaker 2: my husband who's here too, that my dad every Friday

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Speaker 2: night would make us some mint chocolate chip milkshake.

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Speaker 3: Every we got the milkshake every Friday night.

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Speaker 2: Uh. And so we would watch Dallas on Fridays. And

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Speaker 2: then I was the Facts of Life girl. I loved

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Speaker 2: the TV show Facts of Life my favorite growing up.

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Speaker 3: Same.

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Speaker 1: So, how did you get into acting? Were your parents

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Speaker 1: for it? Was it a great opportunity to sort of

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Speaker 1: get out of the lower middle class? No?

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Speaker 3: Actually, my dad saw what was that show? A Battle

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Speaker 3: of the Network stars?

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Speaker 2: Living in Illinois blizzards and it was January and my

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Speaker 2: father told us that he when I was older, that

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Speaker 2: he was he couldn't believe that the celebrities were wearing

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Speaker 2: shorts and a T shirt in January and here we're freezing.

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Speaker 2: And my dad worked for Illinois Bell, the phone company,

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Speaker 2: so we had to climb the telephone polls.

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Speaker 3: When it was winter.

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Speaker 2: And so he up and moved our family to California

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Speaker 2: with no job.

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Speaker 3: Your job. He had a friend that.

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Speaker 2: Did leave the phone company and form his own payphone company,

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Speaker 2: and my dad eventually worked for him, and my dad

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Speaker 2: would drive every single day from San Diego to Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles collecting the payphones.

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Speaker 3: He had a payphone route. Wow, this is yeah.

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Speaker 2: When I was fifteen, Yeah, after my freshman year in

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Speaker 2: high school, we moved.

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Speaker 1: So you really did have like a very rock well.

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Speaker 2: You know, we had rock wells, your rock Well scol

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Speaker 2: the sculptures in the book.

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Speaker 3: That was my mom's favorite thing.

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Speaker 2: That'sious you said that.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, literally you're the in the.

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Speaker 3: Rock well exactly. That was my childhood.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So then.

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Speaker 2: When I was fifteen, my mom submitted me for do

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Speaker 2: you remember the clothing company A Spree? Yeah, oh my god, yes,

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Speaker 2: I was in a Spree model search and then I

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Speaker 2: made it to the finals. I went to to like

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Speaker 2: competition things. And then I came in second and an

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Speaker 2: agent from Los Angeles signed me to model.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But I always wanted to act, Like I took drama

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Speaker 2: in school and that was something. But I never thought

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Speaker 2: living in Illinois that was ever a possibility.

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Speaker 1: Right, But you did dream about it as a kid.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I always wanted to act, even when I

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Speaker 2: was younger, but I thought that would never happen because

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Speaker 2: of where I was living, right, California seemed so far right. So,

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Speaker 2: and then when I was I modeled, and then then

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Speaker 2: I just got an agent. I was twenty an acting

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Speaker 2: agent and I played fifteen years old, so I was

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Speaker 2: in the children division of the theatrical agency was Harry

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Speaker 2: Gold at the time, and that was Tracy Gold's father

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Speaker 2: had an agency then. Because I played so young, I

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Speaker 2: didn't need to have a huge resume, so I would

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Speaker 2: just do small parts and I thought, oh, this is easy.

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Speaker 3: I booked my first two jobs.

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Speaker 1: So I was a PA Unsaved by the Bell. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know that. No, I was a

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Speaker 1: PA on Save by the Bell for the Beach episode

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Speaker 1: I did buy no. So mine plays tricks on you

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Speaker 1: because years later I'm in my late twenties and thirties,

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Speaker 1: and I'm seeing you and your Denise Richards who's more

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Speaker 1: famous then, and you're in more movies, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: wait a second, I feel like I know her. I

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Speaker 1: think she was on Save by the Bell, but like

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Speaker 1: you weren't Denise Richards on Saved by the Bell because

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Speaker 1: you were just started like two lies, right, But I

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Speaker 1: remembered you. You have a very striking look, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, and Tory Spelling was Unsaved by the Bell

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Speaker 1: and Leah Rihmany but Lea Rimany wasn't yet exactly. But

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Speaker 1: I was a PA, and I thought you guys were

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Speaker 1: all like rich and famous actresses because you were on

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Speaker 1: this thing that I was doing. Funny, So later I put,

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Speaker 1: you know how you think thause pieces come together in

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Speaker 1: your mind? Later I'm like, I think Denise Richards from

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Speaker 1: all these movies was on Save by the Bell when

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Speaker 1: I was there, but I never connected it. I thought, like, listen,

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Speaker 1: I was a young girl who had just not even

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Speaker 1: walked with the class. I wanted to get to LA

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Speaker 1: and just like work, and I was a PA, and

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Speaker 1: I thought you guys were also intimidating because you were

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Speaker 1: real actresses, and I was just a pa. I could

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Speaker 1: have been friends with you all that time ago.

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Speaker 2: We could have been Frances. I was terrified to do

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Speaker 2: that show. I had to pretend like I was drowning.

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Speaker 2: I was so I remember yeah and yes and I yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, all right, So that was saved by

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Speaker 2: the bell.

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Speaker 1: So sorry so that I didn't realize that. So that

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Speaker 1: was your first That was my free real gig. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So then were you a good actress at that time?

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Speaker 2: No? I couldn't say a word. I was so nervous.

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Speaker 2: I was so nervous and so naive.

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Speaker 1: Well, you were also twenties. You're still living with your parents.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I moved out when I was eighteen.

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Speaker 1: So you moved out when you were eighteen? What area?

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Speaker 2: Uh? I was Wilcox and Hollywood Boulevard. I remember my

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Speaker 2: friend that modeled too. When I was modeling, I saw

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Speaker 2: her apartment. I had pink carpet, so I wanted her

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Speaker 2: apartment when she moved out. I'm not joking. This was

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Speaker 2: a studio. Yes, And my father came about three weeks

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Speaker 2: later and saw where I was living, and through my

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Speaker 2: shit and a pickup truck and he goes you're moving.

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Speaker 1: Out of here and you moved to another place.

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Speaker 2: How because I got some of the units. I'll never

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Speaker 2: forget this. I moved to a place on Bluff Side

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Speaker 2: Drive in Studio City where they had these special units

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Speaker 2: for people that didn't make a lot of money. I

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Speaker 2: forgot what it was called back then. So I qualified

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 1: What was your rent? My rent I had? I had

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Speaker 1: six hundred. I was living in an apartment for six

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars.

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Speaker 3: My pink carpet was six hundred.

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Speaker 1: That was six hundred.

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Speaker 2: So I got a deal with the place in Studio

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Speaker 2: City that had like secure gates. You had to go

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Speaker 2: through a gate with you know, security there, and.

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Speaker 1: So you were responsible for your own finances.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I paid. I always paid my everything.

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Speaker 1: You had jobs in high school too? Or no?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had so many jobs in high school. My

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Speaker 2: first job was Hoganda's ice cream, which was my favorite. Well,

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Speaker 2: I like, uh well back then it was mint chocolate

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Speaker 2: chip and I love that it was like vanilla.

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Speaker 1: Well, they also had slab chocolate, which I liked. Versus

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Speaker 1: Baskeroom Robins, it was like the little slivers.

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Speaker 3: I worked at Robins to see it's not the same.

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Speaker 3: I went back to Hogandas.

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Speaker 2: I understand so all of us girls in high school

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Speaker 2: worked at Hogandas, and we were terrible. We'd have the

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Speaker 2: boys block the camera and kind of give out free

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Speaker 2: ice cream to some of.

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Speaker 3: The boys at school. So nice, nice, you know.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I worked. Uh, I had a lot of

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Speaker 2: jobs in high school. I started working when I was

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Speaker 2: really young.

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Speaker 1: Did you have bad experiences with the casting couch or people.

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Speaker 1: I once met with Aaron Spelling's main casting person, Tony something,

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Speaker 1: and he told me that I had to lose like

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Speaker 1: eight pounds and he just I remember feeling like a

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Speaker 1: real loser because I was trying to act. And I

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Speaker 1: remember feeling like having seen the Pink concert last night

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Speaker 1: and listening to her lyrics about how she doesn't look

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Speaker 1: like Britney Spears and when she was trying to be

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Speaker 1: a pop star, how there's like now everybody can fit

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Speaker 1: into some space. Back then it was really you had

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Speaker 1: to fit in the space. Yeah. So have you what

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Speaker 1: kind of experiences did you have with that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've had many, I you know, it started with modeling.

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Speaker 2: I went to Japan the day after I graduated high school.

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Speaker 2: I was there for at that time for two months

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Speaker 2: and it's ironic.

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Speaker 3: I remember going there and they wanted me to model

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Speaker 3: bras and underwear.

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Speaker 2: This was before I had my boobs done, so I

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Speaker 2: was very small and I was but I called my

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Speaker 2: dad crying and my dad was going to come out

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Speaker 2: and get me. So I told the agency what's ironic

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Speaker 2: is then I do wild things and Playboy later. But

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Speaker 2: that's at the time though I was felt very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: They were gonna rip up my contract and send me home,

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Speaker 2: but they ended up keeping me.

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Speaker 1: And if you didn't wear lingerie, yeah okay, but.

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Speaker 2: They kept me and I still worked even though I

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Speaker 2: didn't do lingerie, and but that it was very awkward

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Speaker 2: going to auditions there at the time because they had

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Speaker 2: us put a bathing suit on, so even if you

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Speaker 2: were modeling a hat, they was just like.

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Speaker 3: And there's no disrespect there.

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Speaker 2: It was just at the time with modeling at that time,

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Speaker 2: and it was just eye opening with working and getting

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Speaker 2: into the business. But I said no to so many

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Speaker 2: things when I started working, and then I worked in

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Speaker 2: New York. I had some similar experiences there, but I

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Speaker 2: think it was more.

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Speaker 1: About just making you feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, yeah, like.

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Speaker 1: You just feel awkward and you feel like you're doing

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Speaker 1: something wrong. You're not going to get the part.

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Speaker 2: But well, the agency that I was with in New York,

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Speaker 2: you were expected to go to parties. I would not go.

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to. I didn't want I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to work. I didn't want to, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: very naive about the business. And it was a lot

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Speaker 2: of pushback with the agency with that, and so it

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Speaker 2: made it a little difficult.

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Speaker 3: But I worked. So that's why they kept.

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Speaker 1: They wanted you to go to parties. Did you feel

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Speaker 1: pressured to drink or do drugs?

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Speaker 3: I didn't go to the parties. I wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: I was the type that would go to bed at

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Speaker 2: nine or ten o'clock at night.

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Speaker 3: I got up early.

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Speaker 2: Even then when I started acting, I didn't go to

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Speaker 2: any I wasn't a party girl. I wanted to really

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Speaker 2: study my two lines over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: I went to acting class a few nights a week,

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Speaker 2: so I really took my job very serious and wanted

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Speaker 2: to do good. I wasn't in that party scene.

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Speaker 1: As a mother. Do you think that is from your

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Speaker 1: parents or do you think that was just inside of

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Speaker 1: you to have that discipline. I'm very much I take

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Speaker 1: things very seriously and if I do it, I'd do

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Speaker 1: it right, and that in my case, it definitely wasn't

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Speaker 1: my parenting, except that my father was a Hall of

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Speaker 1: fame horse trainer, so I sometimes think that he was

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Speaker 1: just the best at what he does. So maybe it's

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Speaker 1: just genetic, But I think about that because I'm like you,

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Speaker 1: I just take things very seriously. So I want to

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Speaker 1: know where you think that came from.

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Speaker 2: I think seeing my dad, you know, he had good

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Speaker 2: work ethics, and it's I think that, you know, just

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Speaker 2: being raised that way and you know, to be professional

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Speaker 2: and you show up, you work, you have to do

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Speaker 2: your job.

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Speaker 3: So I was raised seeing that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's just, yeah, that is that work ethic

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Speaker 1: is entire I think. I think that when people now

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Speaker 1: in the day of filtering and Instagram and the quick

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Speaker 1: fame and instant gratification, I really do always say that

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Speaker 1: I think that the key to success, longevity and success

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Speaker 1: is just that work ethic, that old school work ethic.

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Speaker 1: It could be nineteen fifty, like, it's just are you

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Speaker 1: a person that really like works hard and doesn't count

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Speaker 1: and when is lunch? And when am I punching in

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Speaker 1: and punching out, like just I came up working for

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Speaker 1: Derry Bruckheimer and for Mark Berg and for Lauren Michaels,

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Speaker 1: and like I never remember asking when are we getting

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Speaker 1: out of here? Or this job is too low for me.

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Speaker 1: I just always with someone who I would work for free.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to be working.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how I was, too, and to do one

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Speaker 2: or two lines on these shows. Actually I forgot the

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Speaker 2: name of this one show, and it was basically I

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Speaker 2: was an extra. I was there all day, like, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't care.

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Speaker 1: Right in the game.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would work and I would stay. I

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Speaker 2: never complained. I would stay as long as I needed

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Speaker 2: to stay. If I was sick. There's no even you know,

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Speaker 2: throughout my career, if you're sick, you have to show up.

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Speaker 2: There's no one to replace you because you're on camera.

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Speaker 1: Pros play hurt period. Yes, and I will. I will

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Speaker 1: get into this after with your daughter or your daughters,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like you've instilled that work ethic in them?

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Speaker 1: Do they have a work ethic? I feel like true.

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Speaker 2: I think that everyone's different though, and I think you know,

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Speaker 2: it's the generation of our our daughters is a little different,

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Speaker 2: and it's hard too because I feel that sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: a quick they want everything right now.

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Speaker 1: Instant gratification. And also they grew up with a mother

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Speaker 1: who's famous and wealthy and a father who's famous and wealthy,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard to be successful and have money and

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Speaker 1: access and tell them not to you grew up with

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Speaker 1: a father who was climbing up telephone poles Illinois. It's

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Speaker 1: not you can't. It's hard to recreate that, right.

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Speaker 2: But my daughters weren't born obviously when I started my

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Speaker 2: career and see me, you know, all the auditions I

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Speaker 2: went on and all the rejection and the stuff that

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Speaker 2: I did deal with.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because they say that fifties moms spent less

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Speaker 1: stay at home mom spent less time with their kids

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Speaker 1: than we do now because we're so use your inside

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Speaker 1: voice and let's talk a bit, you know, and like

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. So it's like, my daughter never really

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Speaker 1: sees me working because I'm so present when I'm with her,

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Speaker 1: which is all true and that's who I am. But

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Speaker 1: like you know, when we were kids, our mother mothers

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Speaker 1: are smoking when they're pregnant the kids, and you'd put

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Speaker 1: your you had an audition, you would have just set

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Speaker 1: your kid on a chair. Mommy's working. But now it's like,

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Speaker 1: my daughter really doesn't see me work that much, and

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Speaker 1: and who knows if that's even a good thing it

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Speaker 1: she'd be like, shut up, sit down, I gotta go

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Speaker 1: on the road. I'm going on a trip to Australia

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Speaker 1: next year, and I want to make sure that, like

444
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: I'm only working the two times and the rest of

445
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: the time is a mommy and me experience because they're

446
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: so coddle.

447
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true, you know, very different.

448
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for the longest time they thought I

449
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 2: worked in a trailer because when they would come to set,

450
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 2: they would come in the trailer, see me get my

451
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: hair makeup done, right, But they wouldn't come on set

452
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 2: because god forbid, they made a noise.

453
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 3: Right, right, they screw a take up I did not want.

454
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, what if my kid says something

455
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: and someone's take messed up?

456
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

457
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: You know, so I think they thought I worked in

458
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: a trailer for the longest time.

459
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 3: I don't even think they knew what I did.

460
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really don't see the struggle. That's really interesting. Okay,

461
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: So now your career when pops off. When you're saying

462
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 1: the your wild Things popped it off, or.

463
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I think that when you experience a successful

464
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: product like television show or a movie or song, whatever,

465
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: your career is. The work that it takes to get

466
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: there is not overnight. But when something hits, that's overnight, right,

467
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: it's the.

468
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: Swell of the wave crests.

469
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: And like you say, you go overnight when people when

470
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 2: you go from people recognizing you or not and then

471
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: to recognizing.

472
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: You, right, And that was wild Things, and that was

473
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 1: like astronomical fame.

474
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: You know, you go to the grocery store and people

475
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: recognize you, or you're on a cover of a magazine.

476
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: That was weird to see yourself. No one has magazines

477
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: really anymore. There's only a few, I think. So, yeah,

478
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 2: it's very different. But back then, when you're you know,

479
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 2: in line buying your groceries and you see yourself on

480
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: the cover of something, it's weird.

481
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 3: It's it's a little different. Y.

482
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how first of all, how did you handle that?

483
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: How did that feel? And did you have a support system?

484
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: Did you have good friends? Like you're in la, You're

485
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: not in your.

486
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: Well, you're out the front. There are certain friends that

487
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 3: then get.

488
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: Jealous, okay, because they're also actresses.

489
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: Because that's where I met friends, was acting classes and

490
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, the little jobs along the way. The I

491
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 2: did so many pilots that didn't get picked up, and

492
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 2: you know, became friends with so many different actresses and

493
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 2: actors along the way, and some of them I'm still

494
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: close to and and some of them along.

495
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: The way were couldn't handle it.

496
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's funny they say fame changes, and for

497
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: some people it does change the person that becomes famous,

498
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 2: but sometimes it's the people around you that change.

499
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: That's interesting. In my life, fame was one thing, not

500
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: at that level. But money. When you make money when

501
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,119
Speaker 1: I want, I had my Forbes cover, that's when people

502
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: really get crazy. Yeah, because the money. I just always

503
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: thought they were the same thing. When I saw you

504
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: unsaved by the bell, I thought like you had to

505
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: be rich because you were acting, but you definitely weren't.

506
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: Now that I but but money too, and you added

507
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 1: to that absolutely. So you pop off And are you

508
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: making the right choices in your career? Like you have

509
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: to make all these decisions.

510
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 2: Because everything a lot of bad choices.

511
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean, no. Then like now you're really famous and

512
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: everything's getting thrown at you and everybody wants something.

513
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: From Oh, it's hard because then it's right away, Oh

514
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: you need to hire I'm so grateful. I Jill was

515
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: not my first publicist, but I'm so grateful, and we've

516
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 2: been together almost my entire career. But there were there

517
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 2: was like a year or so where I was with

518
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: other people, not the best choices, and then it's like, oh,

519
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: you need a business manager, you.

520
00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:58,959
Speaker 3: Need this, this, this.

521
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: It's overwhelmed, especially someone in your twenties. You become famous

522
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: and you're you're a commodity and people you don't know,

523
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: you're trusting the people around it.

524
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: Of course it all sounds great, Yeah, it all sounds great.

525
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: It all sounds that you need it.

526
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that you need the help in this, But

527
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 2: it's also not knowing. I find it overwhelming.

528
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: Everything sounds good, Yeah, everything, everything sounds good. It's like

529
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: a horoscope and everything could apply to you, but it

530
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily apply.

531
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're young, you're you don't it's it's a

532
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 2: totally different job and experience, and so you rely on

533
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: people that are in your life to help guide you.

534
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: But I definitely have made a lot of bad decisions

535
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: for sure.

536
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: So did you get really screwed financially many ways? Many

537
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: And what have you learned? Like what what what is

538
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: your what is your infrastructure like now?

539
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: Like what if I learned if I could go back?

540
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: I think to follow my gut. That's the thing that's

541
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 2: the biggest advice I give my daughters. Always follow your gut.

542
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 2: And that was something my mom would always tell me,

543
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: but I didn't always.

544
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: Listen to it.

545
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: Is that little voice that's telling you your guardian angels,

546
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: you know, if something doesn't feel quite right, just listen

547
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: to it.

548
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: Board.

549
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the biggest lesson that I have and that

550
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: I've learned, and what I'm trying to teach my daughters

551
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: is always follow your gut because even if people don't

552
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: agree with it.

553
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: The times you've been screwed over are all of them.

554
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: You kind of saw it, but you just didn't listen. Yeah,

555
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: And that was that was business wise? What about personal?

556
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: Obviously your relationship with Charlie and Richie Sambora was public.

557
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: Did you date a lot of other actors? Were you

558
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: in were you like doing the whole scene?

559
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't the type of woman that had to

560
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: be in a relationship. I was okay being single and alone,

561
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: so I didn't I have Obviously I dated and dated others,

562
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: but not long term relationships.

563
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 3: But I I was okay not dating.

564
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: And how soon after Wild Things if that's the crest

565
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: did you meet Charlie?

566
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: Probably about four years after four or five years so, but.

567
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: You were still at the height of your career. You

568
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: were very doing very well. Everything was great success wise.

569
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was working a lot.

570
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: Because I for me, just being a fan and a viewer,

571
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: I understand the attraction to Charlie Sheen for you having

572
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: been in a relationship with someone that had having experienced

573
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: people who are have addiction, there is the highs are

574
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: very charismatic and very electric, and those types of people

575
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: with the promises they make and the excitement and the

576
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: road like is very intoxicating. So I because I've read

577
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: things about you and that relationship and that he was

578
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: seemed super charming and like you, you found it very exciting.

579
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: So what was that like meeting him? And like, what

580
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: was the sorry because Aaron's here and my fiance Paul's

581
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: not into like he'll go go? Do I look like

582
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: your girlfriend. You could go talk to Sarah. But last

583
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: night I was saying some comedian was attractive. He's like,

584
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: do I look like your best friend?

585
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: I don't, you know?

586
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: He's very so so sorry, yeah okay, so oh you

587
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: have a good relationship with Chari. Okay, great, that's so

588
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: not that's amazingship. I you know, and I also have

589
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: I have sympathy for people who suffer from addiction. It is,

590
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: it is a disease. So I just want to know

591
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: what that attraction was like. And we're going to get

592
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: into that ride a little bit. I, first of all,

593
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: was incredibly naive to addiction.

594
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: And when I met Charlie, he was sober for four years,

595
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: so and people would ask me, oh, are you afraid

596
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: he's going to relapse or this? For me, there was

597
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: no question. I said, no, I don't. I didn't know

598
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: that person. I only knew who I met, and that

599
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: was a man who had been sober for four years.

600
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: I didn't judge him for his past because I figured, well,

601
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: his past made him who he is today. And the

602
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: person that I met was very different from the person

603
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: that spiral during I didn't, you know.

604
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I thought I didn't know that

605
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: he had already been recovering for well he was.

606
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: And a lot of people said, oh, you you reformed

607
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: the bad boy or this. I said, no, I he was.

608
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have dated him. I didn't know that if

609
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: I met him when he was in his addiction, deep

610
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: in addiction, he was sober and a completely different person.

611
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: So that's who I.

612
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: Met And did he so he so? Did he not?

613
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: He didn't drink or do anything else. So was it boring?

614
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: Was it exciting?

615
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: I'm just yeah. I wasn't a partier, so I was

616
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: I didn't want to be with wasn't thinking, Oh shoot,

617
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: I just started dating Charlie Sheen and I just read

618
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: all these crazy stories about him, and how come we're

619
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: not doing it? That wasn't part of it. And also,

620
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, back then we didn't have social media. It

621
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: was all the tabloids. Obviously, I knew what was in

622
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: the tabloids and just knew bits and pieces, and I

623
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: didn't know what was true what wasn't true about his past.

624
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: But I just knew the person that I met was

625
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: someone who was I met him on a movie called

626
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: Good Advice. He had just gotten replaced Michael j Fox

627
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: on Spin City, and so he was getting ready to

628
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: start that, and so we didn't. We weren't dating on

629
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: the movie that I met him on. Then a year

630
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: later I do Spin City. They went through a list

631
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: of actresses with him and said we want to bring

632
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: someone on to do a recurring role. And he said, oh, Denise.

633
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: I worked with her great. Whatever, we got along, We

634
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: worked good together. And so then I started I worked

635
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 2: on Spin City, and then we started dating, and then here.

636
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: We are and.

637
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: To get here, Well, what was your thought about him?

638
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 2: I really liked his work ethic. I thought he was

639
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: a great actor. I thought it was funny. He was

640
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: very kind, and you know, obviously there was an attraction

641
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: in chemistry with with he and I and and so

642
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: then it you know, evolved into a relationship. And also

643
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: I wasn't one of these actresses either that was dating

644
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: all my co stars. That wasn't my thing either. I

645
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 2: there was only one other actor I dated that I

646
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: worked with, and I dated him before we work together.

647
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: But otherwise that wasn't I wasn't one that would hook

648
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: up with you know, all the actors on set or

649
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: you know, that wasn't for me. It was work I

650
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: would go to work. I wasn't there to meet someone

651
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: to date or make friends.

652
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

653
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: He just jumped off the page or pursued you.

654
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: Well, because I think we worked on a movie a

655
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: year prior and we had a lot of mutual friends.

656
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: We just you know, started talking more and just had.

657
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: It started as a friendship.

658
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: It started kind of a friendship.

659
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: And where was being a bond girl and Playboy before this?

660
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 3: Playboy bond before Playboy after?

661
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: So bond was before? What was it like to be

662
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: a Bond girl? Like just saying the pressure of doing

663
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: it or after?

664
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: Well, I had never People don't believe me, but it's true.

665
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: I had never seen a movie. I believe I was cast.

666
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: I flew I auditioned for it in la and then

667
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: they I'll never forget this because it was Thanksgiving. They

668
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 2: flew us to do screen tests with peers and I

669
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: think there were six of us actresses. I brought my

670
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: dad because I was sad to miss Thanksgiving, and so

671
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: my mom had my dad go with me while I

672
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: screen tested in London.

673
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: But they were freaking out. Your parents were like, you're

674
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: going to be a Bond girl at.

675
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 3: The well, I didn't know if I was going to

676
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 3: get the part.

677
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 2: I had to fly there to do a screen test,

678
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: and they fly, Yeah, they flew. They took very good

679
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: care of us, and I went an audition. I was

680
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 2: nervous as hell. I had to do scenes with peers

681
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 2: at Pinewood Studios where they shot, and it's a very

682
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: well known studio. I do the screen test and fly

683
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: back to LA and then Jill set me up with

684
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: an interview with details magazine. I think it was Our

685
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 2: D I can't remember. I'm literally with the journalist when

686
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: I get the call that I got the part.

687
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: Oh did you tell the journalist?

688
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

689
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I just got bond and he

690
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: was like, what, what the fuck? You're gonna be bond girl.

691
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: I'm like yeah, I go, well that's good.

692
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 3: I'm excited.

693
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 2: And he was like he was so excited that he

694
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: was able to break it. But then I get home

695
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 2: and it's on CNN and everywhere, and I was like,

696
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: I call my agent. I'm like, why is this such

697
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: a big deal? Why am I on the news about

698
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: a role I got? Goes, Do you understand this movie?

699
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, that's amazing, that's so amazing. No one

700
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: can ever take that away from you. Were your parents

701
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: freaking out? Come on, your parents had to be freaking Yeah.

702
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: That I would say is when internationally when things really chang,

703
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: because I shot the movie. So I remember it was

704
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving that I auditioned, and then January they fly me

705
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: out there with They let me bring my mom to

706
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: look for an apartment because it was a six month shoot.

707
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: So we find an apartment and then fly back and

708
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: then I had to fly back again film six months,

709
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: wrap in June and the movies out in November.

710
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

711
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 3: And then I'm on a month long press tour worldwide.

712
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: That's fine.

713
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, the fans for this.

714
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people here.

715
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

716
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 3: It was crazy. That's really a crazy experience.

717
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 1: That's a ride. That's amazing. Wow, that's so cool. Okay,

718
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: So then you're with Charlie and you have a pretty

719
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: normal relationship. You're like, he's sober, you're in love, You're

720
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: just a normal relationship, Hollywood normal.

721
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, we were.

722
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: And then I get pregnant with Sammy, and that was

723
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: probably a year into our marriage. I have Sammy. Five

724
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: months later is when I shot Playboy. Okay, And I

725
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: remember Playboy asking if he wanted to be the photographer.

726
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: If Charlie would be the first a photographer.

727
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: No, that's why it was like, No, they wanted to

728
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: get behind the scenes of him shooting me. They said,

729
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: the photographer can set up the shot, he just has

730
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 2: to put the Oh yeah, they just wanted that.

731
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 3: Whole thing do it.

732
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: No, because he he got Two and a Half Men

733
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 2: while I was pregnant, and so then he went into production,

734
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: so he was, you know, nervous about starting a new

735
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: TV show after God then City got canceled and so

736
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 2: he got that, which, by the way, I read the script.

737
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 3: And I'm like, you have to do this show.

738
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: Oh, you were part of the decision.

739
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: Oh he was going to do a different show.

740
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: Oh weird.

741
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: And I read the script. I go, you're crazy for

742
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 3: not doing this.

743
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And that obviously was his most huge instrumental

744
00:37:52,440 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: role in his whole life. Wow. So, now why did

745
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: the wheels fall off? Was it about a holiday? I

746
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 1: mean about a Hollywood relationship? Did the wheels fall off

747
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: for him first? Did they fall off for you both together?

748
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: Oh? No, I think because the success of Two and

749
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: a Half Men and the money I think led to

750
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 2: him getting back into being sober, but he was in.

751
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: He was he believed his own you know, I drank

752
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: his own crate.

753
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 2: Something that he would have to answer, right, I just

754
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: know it that he was no longer the person I married.

755
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: He was on a hit show. And was he on

756
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: a low in his career before that?

757
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: Well?

758
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 3: He, I mean he did.

759
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 2: He was on a low before he got Spin City, right,

760
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: replacing Michael J. Fox, And he did a great job

761
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: on that one, a golden globe. He had to go

762
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 2: through struggles, and he's very public about that, with not

763
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: working for quite quite a few years because of his addiction.

764
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 2: And but I think the with the fame and the

765
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: success of that show, whatever that is, that's something for

766
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: him to talk about.

767
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: But all I know is he.

768
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: Was no longer the person that I married and no

769
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: longer sober.

770
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: So and how quick did that happen? So the show was,

771
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: it was an instant hit, It was explosive, and then

772
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: how quick did you start to see?

773
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: Well we got let's see, after Sammy was born. I

774
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: got pregnant six months later with Lola, and I filed

775
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: for divorce when I was six months pregnant?

776
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: Now, how bad is your family life inside? Like in

777
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: what because we're reading in the tabloids, how insane is

778
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: what's going on your house?

779
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: Or is it well insane enough for me to file

780
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: for divorce six months pregnant?

781
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: Right?

782
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I moved out and we had a

783
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: little separation.

784
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: It was get out. Yeah, we got to get out.

785
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: And what about your parents or what are they saying?

786
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: Did they understand why you married Charlie? Are they like

787
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: who is this person? What are we doing?

788
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: They? Yeah, they liked Charlie and they were very supportive

789
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 2: of us being married and getting married. Like I said,

790
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: he was very different from what the public saw when

791
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 2: he spiraled after all that stuff with publicly when after

792
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: two and a half men, when he was fired and

793
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: going through all that with the Tiger Blood and all

794
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: that show.

795
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 1: So when you file how soon?

796
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 3: There was a lot of stuff.

797
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: Obviously people did not know that it was not public,

798
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 2: But when I filed it was basically he went to work.

799
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: I packed a suitcase and took our daughter, who is

800
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 2: just not even one, and went to the Beverly Hills

801
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: Hotel and I went to file for divorce and went

802
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: to a fitting for a pilot that I was doing.

803
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: So how bad is it publicly? Then? Like what's going like?

804
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: What's going on publicly?

805
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 2: It was again, I was stupid. I was shocked that

806
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 2: it was so public. I thought, oh, it'll just be

807
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: a little blurb. It wasn't a little blurb. It was

808
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 2: we were on the cover of tabloids for a couple

809
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: of years. I was insane and I couldn't understand why.

810
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 2: That was very difficult for me because being pregnant and

811
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,479
Speaker 2: it was hard enough that I was having a deal

812
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: with this, going through a divorce, have a one year old,

813
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: and I'm pregnant, and it's so public, and to have

814
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: the mud slinging as well with you know, I just

815
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: wanted us to just shut the fuck up and go

816
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: through it.

817
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: And where was he in his career and in this

818
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: public aspect on.

819
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 3: The hottest show ever?

820
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: And they wanted to protect him, and they knew something

821
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: must be mad for the wife where no one read

822
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: stuff about us, And that's that's the thing now, looking back,

823
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: why people weren't quite surprised was because it wasn't as

824
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 2: though people saw us fighting in public or again, there

825
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: was no social media where people could, but even at

826
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 2: that we weren't the type of couple to do that.

827
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: They saw us three weeks earlier at the SAG Awards,

828
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: and then three weeks later, I'm filing for freaking divorce.

829
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: And it was just the first time you saw like

830
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: the spin of fame, like fame biting you in the ass, like.

831
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: You well, it was the spin of my personal life

832
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 2: being so public. I was not getting at that moment

833
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: any negative publicity. It was people felt bad for me,

834
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: Oh my god, things must be really.

835
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: You were sympathetic because you were pregnant. Yeah, you were

836
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: a woman and.

837
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: So but I and I didn't want anything bad for

838
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: him either, you know, negative in the press. I didn't

839
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: want that. I didn't want it to be so public.

840
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: But it was what it was, which is very difficult.

841
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: It's hard enough going through a divorce or anything, you know, personally,

842
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: but then to deal with it so publicly, as you know,

843
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: it's really hard.

844
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: I was thinking, you've been churned through the machine many times,

845
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times over and over, being

846
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: turned through the machine, no or not really.

847
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,439
Speaker 2: Back then, yeah, yeah, and that was a big risk

848
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: for me that could have gone either way. I took

849
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 2: a big risk doing that. I thought this could maybe

850
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: I won't ever work again. But it was such an

851
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: amazing project and a great script and good people involved.

852
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 3: I felt like it was worth the risk.

853
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: That was risky. Playboy it was risky too. You're on

854
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: top of the world and then you're doing Playboy.

855
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: Well I did Playboy when, and like I said, I

856
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 2: was you know, I felt like it was also a

857
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,760
Speaker 2: little I was offered it actually during right after Wild

858
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: Things or I don't remember, but I turned it down,

859
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 2: and then they came back again after Sammy was born,

860
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: and I thought, well, you know what, why not It's

861
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 2: okay to show that I can be a mom and

862
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: still be perceived as sexy. It doesn't mean well.

863
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 1: That's coming that comes into play with the only fans,

864
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: which I'm really interested in too. But all right, so Charlie,

865
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: the wheels come off, and then but the wheels haven't

866
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: yet come off at work because he's just like a

867
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: Hollywood bad boy and he's still working, he's still making money.

868
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: So when does this really devolve? Like because hete because

869
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: what we saw publicly was like it was kind of

870
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: like Kanye ish, like Kanye was on.

871
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 2: Wheel when his wheels fell off to your.

872
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: Work, because well, his wheels are your wheels. His wheels

873
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: came off, and then it became it always splattered back. Yeah.

874
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,239
Speaker 2: I mean anytime there was anything public about him, I

875
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 2: would for some reason be dragged in, Right, that's what

876
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 2: I saw. But we were divorced quite a few years.

877
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: That's the thing that people but you're co parenting, were

878
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: co parenting. So I know because it was twenty eleven

879
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 2: because that's when always the year she was born. But

880
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: he was fired in twenty eleven from two and a

881
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: half men. I filed for divorce in two thousand and five,

882
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: so we were divorced for six years. Yeah, and he

883
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: already had another marriage and another divorce book, which yeah,

884
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: but by the time.

885
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 3: His wheels fell off, went to and half men.

886
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: But you were trying to co parent while no one

887
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: else saw. What I'm saying is it reminds me of,

888
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: for some reason, of Kim and Kanye, because Kanye everyone

889
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: loved and respected. He's so entertaining and he's a genius.

890
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: And you know that Charlie was a genius and charismatic,

891
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: and no one's thinking about his addiction because they're watching

892
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: this entertaining show, and it's making all this money and

893
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: it's the highest paid actor on television, and Kanye was

894
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: on top of the world. And then one day, like

895
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: everybody sees what you see because the wheels come off

896
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: for us. And of course everyone even applauded that he

897
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: went up in Twitter followers because people were almost like

898
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: embracing the crazy. And but then one day it crashes

899
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: and burns. I saw that with Kanye too, and Charlie

900
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: crashed and burned when he lost the job.

901
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's when it happened.

902
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm saying, did you feel any Not that

903
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 1: you wanted that to happen to him, but like somebody

904
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: seeing your side of it first, you're not, you know,

905
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: because you got so so so trashed in the past.

906
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 2: I think there there was definitely a part of me

907
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: that felt okay, now, I think people understand without me

908
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 2: saying it, what was going on, and that there was

909
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: a lot going on behind closed doors that I didn't

910
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: divulge and I didn't say and and to be painted

911
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: as someone so bad by a lot of people on

912
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: his side was very hard for me because I had

913
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: a whole studio, I had very powerful men that were

914
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: involved in his production that tried to paint me as

915
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: this horrible person when all I was trying to do

916
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: was one. I helped them a lot by helping him

917
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 2: that they all know, and also to protect our girls,

918
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: because just because we're in the public eye and we're

919
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 2: a famous family doesn't mean the kids have to be

920
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: pulled into that so much. And people don't realize, like

921
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: even with the paparazzi, some of the questions they would

922
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: yell at me in front of our daughters, and I

923
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: would say, please, they can hear, they can hear you.

924
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: Please don't ask me these questions or say it was

925
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 2: so difficult, and you know, I'll never forget we were.

926
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: We came to New York to I was promoting a show,

927
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: and Charlie thought it would be great for him to

928
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 2: come with us.

929
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: And this is why you're not together. While we weren't together,

930
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: Oh so you had a sort of amicable co parenting relationship.

931
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: We went through ups and downs.

932
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: There was a period when I took care of his sons,

933
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 2: and then there was a period when things were really bad.

934
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 2: So it would go up and down, and so during

935
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: the times where it was up, I wanted to have

936
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: the girls experience wonderful moments with their dad and I,

937
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: and I wanted them to see us be able to

938
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: be together at whether it's a birthday party or whatever.

939
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 2: We did go on vacation together, and it might sound

940
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 2: weird for people. We wouldn't stay in the same room,

941
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: but we wanted the girls to still have that family

942
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: unit whenever possible.

943
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: Underneath all the craziness. It sounds like that says a

944
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: lot about both of you. I went through a very

945
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: public ten year divorce and stayed quiet too, and it's

946
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: impossible because you know what's really going on, and you

947
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: don't feel vindicated, and you feel like you're a villain.

948
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: And I really relate to that. But also that a

949
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: child's daughter's first relationship is with her dad with a man,

950
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: so you have to really try to foster that being positive.

951
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: And it says a lot about both of you that

952
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: you somehow, even through all the craziness, even him through

953
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 1: an addiction, understood like somehow fundamentally that it's we should

954
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 1: all be together and that you are a family unit

955
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: forever no matter.

956
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 3: What, right, yeah, no matter what happens.

957
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: That's really amazing, shock, it's amazing and shocking, and so

958
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: you went through a complete ship storm beyond belief. And

959
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: what were the financial ramifications of that from his because

960
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: he's he's supporting supposed to be supporting you or child

961
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: support at alimony and his show.

962
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: And again I go back to there is certain advice

963
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: I would give someone going through a divorce is to

964
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: settle it as soon as possible, because the people that

965
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: make the money.

966
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: Are the lawyers. Right.

967
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: I spent a fucking fortune.

968
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: Million, I spent millions millions, same million.

969
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

970
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: No, yeah, it's a lot, and you can't get out.

971
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 3: No.

972
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 2: I felt like sometimes they would meet for drinks, our

973
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: lawyers when we would get along and say what can

974
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: we do to try to fuck this up so that

975
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: we can continue like stringing this out. I don't know

976
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: if they did, but that's how I felt, because it

977
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: was just it was things would be good and then

978
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: something would happen.

979
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my fuck.

980
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: It's really hard. But it's impossible to even implement that

981
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: because both parties are never hearing you, and people often

982
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: hate the other person more than they love their kids.

983
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 2: It's terrible and it becomes about something else, and that's

984
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: what it shouldn't be. But we didn't have a prenup.

985
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: But I also I didn't go after half of I

986
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 2: could have gone after half of two and a half. Men,

987
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: I was with him when yes, you know all of that,

988
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: and a lot of people have said that I was

989
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: a gold digger and all this stuff. And that's the

990
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: thing that was terrible when we were going through our divorce, like,

991
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: oh my god, if they only knew.

992
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: Oh they thought you were going after the two and

993
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: a half.

994
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what I could of Yeah, by

995
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: the way, rightfully so, and I think I would have

996
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 2: deserved every fucking penny. What I had to deal with.

997
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 2: The money was the last thing that we dealt with.

998
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: It was more about the custody, yeah, and all of

999
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: that stuff. And that's the thing that was so hard,

1000
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 2: was you know, thank god my kids were so young

1001
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: at the time because they but they would hear little

1002
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 2: things as they started to get older, and I lied

1003
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 2: to them all the time, and yeah, it was it

1004
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: was not easy.

1005
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 1: But did you have you able to have any compassion

1006
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 1: about the fact that he is an addict and so

1007
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: he's making these promises he literally is capable.

1008
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 2: Of absolutely And that's the thing that that's why I

1009
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: protected him and lied to the girls. Is because I

1010
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: didn't ever want to trash him. I didn't want to

1011
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: say anything negative about him. I would cover up for

1012
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 2: him as much as possible because I didn't want to

1013
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: influence their relationship with each other, no matter what my

1014
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: feelings were at the time on and off with him.

1015
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: Very mature. It is important too, it's important. And did

1016
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: he want custody or it was just was it a

1017
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:16,359
Speaker 1: battle about that?

1018
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 3: Or it was more about the fight.

1019
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: And this is like sometimes I say to when people

1020
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: I get asked a lot about divorce and custody and

1021
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 2: moms and dads that will reach out to me and

1022
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: and you know, I finally was just like what do

1023
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: you want? What do you want? Yeah?

1024
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 3: I was like this this is I go. Done. And

1025
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 3: then it was like okay, I go.

1026
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: You got it a new thing each time, you know

1027
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: what I mean?

1028
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was more about the fight and

1029
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: to keep it engage us engaged.

1030
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: Well, it's a passion and that's that's the addiction too.

1031
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: It's something to focus on and obsess over.

1032
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: But then he was also going through another divorce while

1033
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: going through our divorce.

1034
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: Was he leaning on you during that like off and on.

1035
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 3: He would go back and forth between the two.

1036
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: Of us and are you friends with her?

1037
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1038
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. And Aaron was just here saying he's

1039
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: friends with Charlie, So I don't know, you have to

1040
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: so I.

1041
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 2: Could say, there's hope if he and I, by the way, yeah,

1042
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 2: be in a room or vacation or have dinner together,

1043
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 2: or him and I want to go on.

1044
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: A vacation with you and Charlie Sheen. That's just what

1045
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm just saying that, And Aaron like, I

1046
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: just can I be invited? I just really do I want.

1047
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,959
Speaker 3: To if we could fly on your plane, yes.

1048
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: Perfect, I will get a plane if we can all go,

1049
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: I will one hundred get a plane because I I

1050
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: really want to be on the vacation Desine, Okay, yeah,

1051
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: I just I've always Yeah, I have compassion. I'm sympathetic

1052
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: to someone who has addiction. I'm really I really think

1053
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: it's so admirable that you all have a modern family. Yeah,

1054
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: you're a modern family, and that you literally all I

1055
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: mean you is Charlie she and a good father.

1056
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: I wanted him always to be the best dad he

1057
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: could be. And now and he's you know, he's not

1058
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 2: my father, right, but I always want him. And that's

1059
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 2: why I was always so supportive is because I and

1060
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 2: why I would help him, because some people would be like,

1061
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: why are you helping him? You know he's done so

1062
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 2: much to you, or are you still in love with him?

1063
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I want him to be the best

1064
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 2: version of himself.

1065
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 3: For our daughters. He's their dad, no matter what happens.

1066
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 2: So I've always wanted that for him and for our

1067
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: kids and for his boys.

1068
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: And is he doing a good job with that today?

1069
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 3: He's great.

1070
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: That's good. And do you think that because he says

1071
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: that's it, I'm not never going back. I'm never going

1072
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: to touch anything again. Do you believe that he like

1073
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 1: is very that his addiction is first in his priorities?

1074
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: Like I believe that his addiction is first in his priorities.

1075
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

1076
00:54:55,239 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: I was ignorant when we got together about a day

1077
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: because I wasn't educated about addiction, and that's why I

1078
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: never thought he would ever relapse ever. Because I wasn't educated,

1079
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 2: I was very naive. I think I know his intention

1080
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: is with any addict that gets sober, their intention is

1081
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: to be sober, so but you.

1082
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: Are more aware. So you and the girls are like

1083
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: creating the support system to I wouldn't.

1084
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 2: I'm not one of these that's always like, oh I

1085
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 2: wonder if he's going to relapse. It's just it's day

1086
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 2: by day, yeah, with you know, I have a nephew

1087
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 2: who's an addict, and he, you know, is doing good today,

1088
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: but and his intention is to do good today. But

1089
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 2: I've learned, and I've been educated with addiction that all

1090
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 2: I can do is just be supportive. But mine and

1091
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: Charlie's talks aren't always about sobriety.

1092
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 3: Oh no, you know what I mean.

1093
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 2: Like we're talking about children, his boys, you know, and

1094
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 2: also with his X and the dynamic of all of that.

1095
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:06,280
Speaker 3: So we all help each other.

1096
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: Your grown ups, your community, and you.

1097
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 3: Want to be grown ups. There's life is too short

1098
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: to not.

1099
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but for people who have been in relationships with

1100
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 1: addicts or have family members, it really it's just amazing

1101
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking about all the crazy things that he

1102
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: did say publicly, and like it really can mess with

1103
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:24,560
Speaker 1: your mind, It can messed with like you.

1104
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 2: What he has said about me was awful and hurtful,

1105
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 2: and this is not an easy road, and it hasn't been.

1106
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 2: I've been through hell and back with him. But at

1107
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I'm one that is very

1108
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: forgiving and I like to move forward and keep things

1109
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 2: as peaceful as possible.

1110
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 1: And clean exactly.

1111
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 2: I don't like to bring up shit and harp on.

1112
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: It's just like, it is what it is. Let's move on,

1113
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 2: let's move forward.

1114
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: And that's why you ended up being a decent housewife.

1115
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: We'll get into that.

1116
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 3: Jesus.

1117
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: No, but that is that is that's amazing. No, that's

1118
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: very I.

1119
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 2: Think people have a hard time understanding that about me.

1120
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: They well, it's funny because I had Hillary Clinton on

1121
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: here and she people really wanted her to not forgive Bill.

1122
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. They really wanted her to

1123
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 1: like because that would have dictated how they felt. And

1124
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: now that doesn't define their entire relationship, right, Monica Lewinsky,

1125
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: doesn't define Bill and Hillary's entire How many years they've

1126
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: been married, so you were not married, But I just

1127
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: it's not the definition of you have a lot of

1128
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: other things going on and the stakes are way higher

1129
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 1: than that, and do you forgive him? Yeah?

1130
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 2: I really feel because a lot of people ask me

1131
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 2: if I regret marrying him, and I absolutely do not,

1132
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: because I know that we came into each other's lives

1133
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 2: to have our daughters, and if we were not together,

1134
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: we would not have our daughters.

1135
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:58,080
Speaker 3: So we were.

1136
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 2: Our journey was as a married couple was cut shorter.

1137
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 3: Than what I thought. I thought.

1138
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think when I was getting married, oh,

1139
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 2: this is going to end up in divorce. I'm sure

1140
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: a lot of other people did, thinking, oh, Charlie Sheen's

1141
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: getting married, you.

1142
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, but you're still in each other's lives.

1143
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 2: Right, and we have daughters, and as shit, hell, everything was,

1144
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 2: it is what it is, and it was part of

1145
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 2: the journey.

1146
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: It was part of the journey. It's also now it's

1147
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 1: two actors coming up in Hollywood. It's a lot of

1148
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: ingredients in that pile, you know.

1149
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: It's there's no handbook on There's a lot of books

1150
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: on going through divorce and families and blending families, but

1151
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: there isn't really one, and it's not to It's not

1152
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 2: like woe is me or poor us because we're in

1153
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: the public, but there isn't a handbook on dealing with

1154
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: it publicly. It's embarrassing and humiliating dealing with this shit

1155
00:58:56,280 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 2: and for my kids. So that's the hard thing that

1156
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: that's the hardest thing that it's been like navigating that

1157
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 2: part of it.

1158
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: Oh well, you know, and in each part of it,

1159
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: you've got a deal over here, a movie over here,

1160
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: a part over here, and they're judging you based on

1161
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,439
Speaker 1: what's coming on over here. And he's got the same thing,

1162
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: and he's losing shows because of it, and together, it's

1163
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: just it's torching the whole kingdom, to be honest, It's

1164
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: like people don't realize it's it's it is. It does

1165
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: reflect what divorces are like for other people, just on

1166
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: a bigger scale. But yeah, everybody, everybody loses. Everybody loses

1167
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: in divorces except for the lawyers and the court system,

1168
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: which is really fucked. And so you co parent these

1169
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: girls and you're married to Aaron now who just said

1170
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: that he has a good relationship with Charlie. This is

1171
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 1: all very evolved. I just read an article about your

1172
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: daughter in Bustle and I thought it was so interesting.

1173
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: Now I am naive. I don't know. I'm very naive

1174
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 1: about a lot of things too. I don't understand I

1175
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: don't know what OnlyFans is. I've heard about it. I've

1176
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: heard about it either, okay, So I've heard about it

1177
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: because of Larisa Pippen and because of you and your daughter.

1178
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: And what is only Fans? It's a site where people

1179
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: get to like it's like flirty or it's like full nudity,

1180
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: or like what is only fans?

1181
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 3: Only Fans is whatever you want it to be.

1182
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: And to me, I thought of it as back in

1183
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 2: the day when you would join a fan club.

1184
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you know what I mean.

1185
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: Okay, that kind of thing.

1186
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 3: And yes, is there stuff on there that's more scay, Sure.

1187
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: There's a spectrum.

1188
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 3: You're saying.

1189
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: It's whatever you want it to be. Okay, So what

1190
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 2: you don't have to do anything you don't want to.

1191
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: But what it's a So it's a site for fans

1192
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: to get exclusive content, exclusive content, so video content okay, so.

1193
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 2: And pictures and pictures and communicating whatever and messaging people.

1194
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: So it's a world and it's a it's a business

1195
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 1: for many people, right, it's like a business.

1196
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 3: I learned it. It's a business.

1197
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: Okay.

1198
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 3: I didn't know at the time though, So.

1199
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: Some people are TikTok famous, and some people are Instagram

1200
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 1: famous and some people are like only fan famous, right,

1201
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: like I have to be famous.

1202
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 3: I don't know that.

1203
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 2: No, there's a lot of people on OnlyFans that are

1204
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,200
Speaker 2: not uh household names that are. There's a lot of

1205
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 2: different people on there that do different things, and like.

1206
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: A niche like Cameo had different categories of people that

1207
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: would send messages.

1208
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: And it's also but it's also some people do you

1209
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: know cooking or you know building?

1210
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 1: How normal cooking like you know, be wearing sexy You

1211
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: could do normal cooking.

1212
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 3: You can do normal cooking on there.

1213
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: There are not fans cooking.

1214
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 2: I do potato could be you should, Yeah, it's.

1215
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: Why can't I do caviar baked potato cottages.

1216
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:51,959
Speaker 2: They would like if you were naked, but okay, you.

1217
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:53,919
Speaker 1: Could naked, Babe could naked.

1218
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 2: Maybe you could do whatever you want. It's whatever you

1219
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: maked potatoes. I think that what gave it a perception

1220
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: was a lot of adult film actors are on the page,

1221
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 2: and so I think that's where it came from.

1222
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1223
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: I actually don't know, to be honest with you, But

1224
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 2: all I know is my daughter joined it and she

1225
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: got so much backlash, and I was so upset. I

1226
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 2: was upset for her because I know what that's like

1227
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 2: to get backlash.

1228
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: For something and to have people say stuff. And she's

1229
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 3: so young.

1230
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: She's nineteen. Yeah, she's nineteen, and she was eighteen when

1231
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: she was eighteen, which is very young, right, But what

1232
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: is she? What was she she went on there? What

1233
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: was her job?

1234
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 2: She's not showing she was in school. She didn't have

1235
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: like a job job, but she she wasn't even showing topless,

1236
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:43,320
Speaker 2: so she.

1237
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 3: Still got backlash.

1238
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: She was just being like she was wearing bathing suits

1239
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 2: or I've never been on her page.

1240
01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: Why you can't do handle it?

1241
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 2: I thought, well, I would think it. Sometimes it's weird

1242
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: for me to even go on my kids' instagram because

1243
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know, it's.

1244
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 1: Just a no. I saw one of my daughter's thirteen

1245
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: year old friends in a sexy Halloween costume and I thought,

1246
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 1: holy shit, so thirteen year old are just in lingerie

1247
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: and I thought it was provocative. I imagine your eighteen year

1248
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: old daughter just being in a bathing suit is not?

1249
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 3: Is your on social media?

1250
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 1: Yes, she's on TikTok and Instagram. She's she's very young,

1251
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 1: like she's even thirteen.

1252
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 2: Isn't it kind of weird though to see her on

1253
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 2: a social it was weird for me.

1254
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 1: Yes, but I snapped the leash when it's like it

1255
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: feels a little provocative and it's not. But she's thirteen.

1256
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,439
Speaker 2: I tried to snap in that at thirteen, and yes,

1257
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: but when they're eighteen, it's a little different.

1258
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: No, it is total. I'm a kid with you. And

1259
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: I was saying Paul last night about some of Prince's

1260
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: friends that I've seen. I said, I don't think it's

1261
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 1: only because of my quote unquote good parenting. I think

1262
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: some kids just are real curious, real early and just

1263
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 1: trying to get out there. And they want they want

1264
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: to be their boy crazy or a girl crazy. They

1265
01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: just they want to get out there. It's just it's

1266
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 1: just inside of.

1267
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 2: It, right, So different generations.

1268
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: You're saying, your daughter is on this site and got

1269
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: a lot of heat even though she's not not naked,

1270
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: she's wearing.

1271
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I decided, well, fuck it, I'm gonna

1272
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 2: open up an account.

1273
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 3: I'll see what this is.

1274
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: Oh okay, And so you open up an account and

1275
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: not with her, your own account, No, no. Okay, so she

1276
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 1: hasn't seen yours and you haven't seen her.

1277
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 2: No.

1278
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 1: Interesting, but Aaron has seen yours, and has Aaron seen.

1279
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 2: Anybody's He has not seen my daughter, so he doesn't

1280
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 2: even know how to get on the damn side.

1281
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know what the site is. But have

1282
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 1: you seen Denise's He shoots a lot of my Aaron

1283
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: shoots the content but doesn't see the result. Okay, So

1284
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: how lucrative? Is only fans for your daughter and for you?

1285
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: Is she supporting herself on this?

1286
01:04:42,520 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1287
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: Wait, like is it like people are making millions of

1288
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: dollars a year or just like one hundreds? A lot

1289
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 1: of people make that, so it's a real income, Like

1290
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: she's yeah, okay.

1291
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 3: You can make a lot of money on it.

1292
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: And I feel like she sort of like messed around

1293
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: with the reporters, like taunting them by saying she's a

1294
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 1: sex worker, like she was paying around.

1295
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 2: She didn't understand. This is where I think I am

1296
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 2: trying to get them to understand, be very careful what

1297
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 2: you say.

1298
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 3: Okay, what you post.

1299
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 2: I said this from day one when they got their

1300
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 2: social media accounts.

1301
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 1: Wait, who's they meaning?

1302
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: My daughters both are no no, no, Lola is not

1303
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 2: on OnlyFans, but just social media. And okay, I said,

1304
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: you always have to be careful whatever photos you sent

1305
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 2: to your friends or what you put in writing anything.

1306
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 2: I said, you have to be very careful because nothing

1307
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 2: is private. I don't care what you think it's not.

1308
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: And so from the very beginning of them going on

1309
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: social media any you know, social media, TikTok or Instagram, whatever,

1310
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 2: you have to be careful, even texting a front. And

1311
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 2: so from there though, with with Sammy I and starting

1312
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 2: to do interviews and that sort of thing, I tried

1313
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 2: to you know, I'm explaining that it's it's a process

1314
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: I learned, learned too doing interviews and everything, sometimes getting

1315
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 2: misquoted or you know, saying something you shouldn't say and

1316
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: regretting that whatever it is. So with her, I think

1317
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 2: it's a process of learning. And I think that it's

1318
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 2: not as easy to get things taken down, oh and

1319
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 2: stuff like that.

1320
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,479
Speaker 1: When I read about it, I took it that she was.

1321
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 2: I don't play the sex workers comment she made I

1322
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 2: believe on an Instagram post.

1323
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: Oh and now she's reframing it.

1324
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 3: Yes, it so smart, I believe.

1325
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1326
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 3: So I think it was there that she said it.

1327
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: And it didn't land. But now she's reframing.

1328
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 3: It and she was surprised.

1329
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 2: I believe how it was taken and she didn't mean

1330
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 2: it that way. And so now with Bussele, I thought

1331
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 2: she did a great job with the article, and you

1332
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 2: know she was trying to I believe, reframe it.

1333
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think she did. I think she did

1334
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: a great job. And also I feel like, how is

1335
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: a mother. You were young, you were an actress, you

1336
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: were living in your six hundred dollars apartment, you did Playboy,

1337
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: So it's hard for you to say you can't do this.

1338
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean not that she would listen to you, and

1339
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: she's an adult, but she won't.

1340
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 2: I mean, she's of age and she can do whatever

1341
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 2: the hell she wants. It's hard at times, and I

1342
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 2: don't always agree with every decision. My parents I'm sure

1343
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 2: didn't agree with every decision. I'm sure my dad doesn't

1344
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: agree with every decision I make, even now as a

1345
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 2: grown up, you know, but as a parent, I have

1346
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 2: to let her.

1347
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 3: Grow.

1348
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 2: But I'm here for her, and I try to also

1349
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 2: guide her and try to explain certain things too. And

1350
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: I think it is a very difficult thing for kids.

1351
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 2: You'll see as your daughter gets older, being the daughter

1352
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 2: of someone famous, and how it's going to be when

1353
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 2: she's evolving into being having boys like her and having

1354
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: maybe boys say things about her mom or do you

1355
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 2: know what I mean. Yeah, that's a whole different dynamic too, changing. Yeah,

1356
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 2: it's it's different. And so I I didn't grow up

1357
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,640
Speaker 2: the way my kids are growing up and have grown up.

1358
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 2: I grew up very different. So I can't imagine what

1359
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 2: that must be like. You know, sometimes I really think

1360
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 2: about it. I'm like, shit, it must be really weird

1361
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: that their mom did some of this ship you know, not.

1362
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: To be a hypocrite and say you can't do this exactly,

1363
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 1: but people are are people blaming you? The mom shamers

1364
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 1: like blaming you.

1365
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 2: I don't read any of that crap. I'm sure they're

1366
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 2: blaming both Charlie and I, you know, between the two

1367
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 2: of us.

1368
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure they're like these two fuck ups.

1369
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 2: You know, you're tall, I've had everything and under the

1370
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 2: sun set about me. I'm like, I'm not going to

1371
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 2: read their negative bullshit. Already know what the negative comments

1372
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 2: will be.

1373
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 3: If I see a.

1374
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:52,640
Speaker 2: Positive one, I was like, oh god, that's nice. And

1375
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 2: then I stop at that one, and then I won't

1376
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 2: read anything else.

1377
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: Right, And where does Charlie stand on all of this?

1378
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:58,880
Speaker 1: Where's where is he? Well?

1379
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 2: When he when she first did only fans, he was

1380
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 2: not happy and I think was public about it, which

1381
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 2: she didn't appreciate. And uh, he's changed his tune.

1382
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:12,799
Speaker 1: You guys are being supportive and all together.

1383
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 2: I mean he changed his tone when she bought a

1384
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 2: Mercedes and moved into a house.

1385
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:22,799
Speaker 3: So I was like, maybe this ain't so bad after all, when.

1386
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 1: She bought the Mercedes and moved to your house.

1387
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,799
Speaker 2: Okay, So so I mean, I don't want.

1388
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: To speak for him, but I would love he's one

1389
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: of my people. When people ask me, now, who one

1390
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: of who my dream guest is after, I'm gonna say

1391
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: Charlie that, yeah, i'd like to have him.

1392
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 3: I think he's very interesting.

1393
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 1: I think the story is interesting. I think i'd like

1394
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 1: to think that happen. Okay, I really do. I have

1395
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 1: a natural interest in that