WEBVTT - A Better Way to Make the Chemicals in Everything 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.756 Pushkin. I'm just listening to that's the walkie talkie again. 0:00:25.036 --> 0:00:27.876 Yeah, I'm in an operating chemical plant. 0:00:28.356 --> 0:00:31.076 Fair enough, Well, so is the is the bioforge? Is 0:00:31.116 --> 0:00:33.396 the factory? Like out the window behind you, you're in 0:00:33.436 --> 0:00:35.236 a trailer. Where's the factory from where you are? 0:00:35.316 --> 0:00:37.116 It's right right right in front of me. 0:00:37.236 --> 0:00:39.236 Could you walk outside and throw a rock and hit it? 0:00:39.396 --> 0:00:42.036 Yes? Yeah. So we're on the former site of an 0:00:42.036 --> 0:00:43.916 exploded polyethylene wax distillery. 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:45.596 It exploded. 0:00:45.796 --> 0:00:49.356 Yeah, so so I just found in twenty sixteen. But 0:00:49.396 --> 0:00:51.956 the site that we're on exploded in two thousand and five. 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:53.636 So it's what's called a. 0:00:53.636 --> 0:00:55.476 Did you get a deal? Did you get a deal 0:00:55.596 --> 0:00:56.636 because it had blown up? 0:00:56.996 --> 0:01:00.196 We got a deal? Yeah? Yeah. 0:01:00.236 --> 0:01:02.156 So, like your site is a metaphor. It is like 0:01:02.236 --> 0:01:06.276 some a petrochemical plant blew up and you built a 0:01:06.316 --> 0:01:09.116 factory on top of the remains exactly. Yeah. 0:01:09.196 --> 0:01:11.436 So that there's actually a Chemical Safety Board report written 0:01:11.476 --> 0:01:13.156 about it. But it blew out every window in like 0:01:13.196 --> 0:01:14.156 a five mile radius. 0:01:14.356 --> 0:01:22.916 Holy kah. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's your Problem? 0:01:22.956 --> 0:01:24.996 The show where I talk to people who are trying 0:01:24.996 --> 0:01:29.036 to make technological progress. My guest today is Sean Hunt. 0:01:29.356 --> 0:01:32.276 He's the co founder and CTO of a chemical company 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:36.836 called Solugen. Solugen sells around one hundred million dollars a 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:40.156 year worth of industrial chemicals, but instead of making the 0:01:40.196 --> 0:01:43.756 chemicals from fossil fuels the way they're typically made, Sologen 0:01:43.836 --> 0:01:48.196 makes them from corn syrup. Sean's problem is this, how 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:51.076 do you make the chemicals that go into everything around us, 0:01:51.356 --> 0:01:55.476 our food, our clothes, our cars without using fossil fuel. 0:01:56.756 --> 0:01:59.956 We've talked a lot on the show about the energy transition, 0:02:00.476 --> 0:02:03.316 the move away from fossil fuels as sources of energy. 0:02:03.716 --> 0:02:06.676 What Solugen is really working on is the chemical transition. 0:02:07.036 --> 0:02:11.836 Basically same idea, but for instead of energy. Solujen got 0:02:11.836 --> 0:02:14.716 its start at a poker table. Sean was getting his 0:02:14.796 --> 0:02:19.076 PhD studying catalysts, in particular the kinds of catalysts that 0:02:19.116 --> 0:02:22.236 are used to make industrial chemicals out of coal, oil, 0:02:22.356 --> 0:02:25.596 and gas. Sitting across the table from him was another 0:02:25.636 --> 0:02:29.436 grad student, another PhD student, a guy named Gorb Chakrabarti, 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:33.556 who was studying biology in particular. He was studying enzymes 0:02:33.636 --> 0:02:36.836 in cancer cells, and enzymes, as it happens, are a 0:02:36.916 --> 0:02:40.036 kind of catalyst that thing Sean was studying in a 0:02:40.156 --> 0:02:43.516 very different context. So of course Jean and Gorub started 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:44.956 talking about catalysts. 0:02:45.356 --> 0:02:48.396 Catalysts in general are used to make the physical world 0:02:48.436 --> 0:02:50.836 around you. Right, So the food that you eat, the 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:53.236 clothes that you wear, the car that you drive, the 0:02:53.276 --> 0:02:56.356 house that you live in, all of those things were 0:02:56.436 --> 0:02:57.676 made using catalysts. 0:02:58.196 --> 0:03:01.076 Okay, and this is what you're studying in grad school. 0:03:01.276 --> 0:03:01.436 Yep. 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:06.356 Meanwhile, the guy sitting across from you at the poker table, Gorab, 0:03:06.796 --> 0:03:07.636 what's he studying. 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:11.796 So what he's studying is like catalysts gone wild. So 0:03:12.996 --> 0:03:16.356 in he's studying pangramic cancer. And so in a cancer 0:03:16.396 --> 0:03:18.556 cell is the catalysts that are in there, which are 0:03:18.716 --> 0:03:24.276 enzyme catalysts, these little folded up proteins. They evolve in 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:28.156 a really strange, very unfortunate way. That is one of 0:03:28.156 --> 0:03:32.036 the reasons that cancer is so bad. But one of 0:03:32.036 --> 0:03:34.476 our conversations was, like, you know, he's describing these enzymes. 0:03:34.476 --> 0:03:36.276 I mean, like, how are they operating in this kind 0:03:36.276 --> 0:03:38.716 of crazy environment? Like enzyme shouldn't be able to do that? 0:03:39.316 --> 0:03:43.116 Like it like that's actually approaching an industrially relevant environment. 0:03:43.156 --> 0:03:45.476 It's unfortunate. It's happening inside a cancer cell. But it's like, hey, 0:03:45.516 --> 0:03:47.836 that's actually like that could actually have some uses. 0:03:48.396 --> 0:03:51.036 Huh. It's really bad when it happens inside your body, 0:03:51.036 --> 0:03:53.396 but if you could make it happen in a factory, 0:03:53.436 --> 0:03:54.276 it might be useful. 0:03:54.356 --> 0:03:55.036 It might be useful. 0:03:55.076 --> 0:03:58.316 Exactly your research and his research coming together. It's like 0:03:58.356 --> 0:04:01.796 the hyper nerd version of like the RECSS peanut butter cup, 0:04:01.876 --> 0:04:05.676 like chocolate and peanut butter, but for catalysts. 0:04:06.116 --> 0:04:08.316 Jacob, I have many friends. I have so many friends. 0:04:11.996 --> 0:04:14.636 So okay, but as you and Gora are talking about this, 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:18.796 like really, why are these enzymes that he's studying, you know, 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:21.756 potentially useful in an industrial setting? 0:04:21.916 --> 0:04:24.756 Yeah, so if you think about it, like what does 0:04:24.796 --> 0:04:27.676 what does the enzyme have to offer? Yeah, so what 0:04:27.716 --> 0:04:30.316 an enzyme can do is it could convert a raw 0:04:30.356 --> 0:04:33.956 material into a product at room temperature and water with 0:04:34.076 --> 0:04:34.756 perfect yield. 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:38.076 Well that's the dream. That's like the cold fusion of 0:04:38.116 --> 0:04:38.676 your business. 0:04:38.836 --> 0:04:40.836 I mean, yeah, enzymes are they're pretty much like the 0:04:40.836 --> 0:04:43.796 cold fusion of catalysis, Like they can do everything that 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:46.796 you want to do in a manufacturing process, like perfectly. 0:04:47.636 --> 0:04:49.556 But the problem's amazing, what's the catch. 0:04:49.596 --> 0:04:52.396 Well, the problem is they're delicate, right, So, so like historically, 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:54.836 like they're hard to make, they're very expensive to make, 0:04:54.876 --> 0:04:57.916 and like you know, I'll give you an example, like 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:00.396 like some of the early like enzymes that you find 0:05:00.436 --> 0:05:02.476 in nature that you want to put in a chemical plant. 0:05:03.116 --> 0:05:06.436 That enzyme might cost two thousand dollars a pound to make, right, 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:08.236 Chemicals are sold for two dollars. 0:05:07.996 --> 0:05:11.596 A pound, right, Yeah, and so and you're making plastic, 0:05:11.636 --> 0:05:14.636 you're making commodity, you're making commodities, or you can't spend 0:05:14.636 --> 0:05:17.116 two thousand dollars a pound for your yeah, because catalyst. 0:05:17.196 --> 0:05:18.876 Because if you can only make like one pound of 0:05:18.916 --> 0:05:21.276 your product per pound of enzyme, you're done. I mean 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:22.556 there's no business to be had there. 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:24.276 You're a thousand times off. 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:26.716 Yeah, Like you're way off right Now, What if you 0:05:26.756 --> 0:05:30.556 could evolve that enzyme in the lab. This is called 0:05:30.556 --> 0:05:33.156 directive evolution, and you can use machine learning AI. There's 0:05:33.196 --> 0:05:35.116 all sorts of cool stuff that like changes literally every 0:05:35.196 --> 0:05:36.836 year on how to do this. What if you could 0:05:36.836 --> 0:05:39.676 evolve that enzyme to make one hundred thousand pounds of 0:05:39.716 --> 0:05:43.556 product per pound of enzyme. Huh. Now, now you have 0:05:43.676 --> 0:05:47.236 a business here. You could actually incorporate that enzyme into 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:49.996 a chemical plant because you're going to consume so little 0:05:50.076 --> 0:05:52.996 of it that even though that enzyme is expensive, it 0:05:53.076 --> 0:05:55.916 has perfect yield in water at room temperature. I mean, 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:57.316 that's an incredible capability. 0:05:58.156 --> 0:06:01.036 And so this, I mean you mentioned like, so what 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:04.076 if you could evolve meeting sort of direct the evolution 0:06:04.356 --> 0:06:10.356 of that enzyme? Right, this is a relatively new idea, right, Like, obviously, 0:06:10.356 --> 0:06:12.676 people have known about enzymes for a long time and 0:06:12.676 --> 0:06:15.836 they're essential to like everything that happens in our body. 0:06:16.076 --> 0:06:20.276 Not quite but kind of, right, So this is the 0:06:20.356 --> 0:06:24.396 key idea. Then it's like what if we everybody knows 0:06:24.596 --> 0:06:27.916 enzymes can do this, but they're not. They're too expensive 0:06:27.916 --> 0:06:31.196 slash not efficient enough. Right, the amount of enzyme you 0:06:31.196 --> 0:06:33.956 have to use is too expensive given the amount of 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:37.756 product you get. And you guys realize that there is 0:06:37.796 --> 0:06:42.316 this relatively recent scientific research that suggests you can get 0:06:42.676 --> 0:06:46.276 enzymes to produce way more product per unit enzyme per 0:06:46.356 --> 0:06:51.796 enzyme exactly, So like, so what do you do? 0:06:52.996 --> 0:06:55.356 Kind Of as this was happening, you know, I was 0:06:55.396 --> 0:06:57.476 coming up, I was on my last year and about 0:06:57.516 --> 0:07:01.276 to graduate, and I'm kind of having you know, I 0:07:01.316 --> 0:07:03.956 don't know, maybe maybe a bit of a crisis on 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:06.236 like that, Like I really like the in academia. I 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:08.316 don't really want to go work for a big company 0:07:08.356 --> 0:07:09.756 like I've worked for big But he's in the past 0:07:09.796 --> 0:07:12.916 not a huge fan. And you know, it's like if 0:07:12.956 --> 0:07:15.116 there's a time in my life to try something, like, 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:17.516 let's do it. And Gore was kind of having a 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:20.556 similar thing, like he he really liked the PhD program, 0:07:20.556 --> 0:07:22.356 but then he did his final two years back in 0:07:22.396 --> 0:07:24.756 med school and like was just not love and medicine. 0:07:25.236 --> 0:07:26.556 And so we were like, well, what if we could 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:29.676 make something work here, And so we entered the MIT 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:35.236 hundred k entrepreneurship competition in twenty sixteen. We got ten 0:07:35.316 --> 0:07:38.396 thousand bucks, and I mean we were super jazzed. I 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:39.876 mean we were like, oh my gosh, like we have 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:42.916 some seed money. This is incredible. And sort of the 0:07:42.996 --> 0:07:44.676 rest of this is sort of again like this just 0:07:44.716 --> 0:07:47.836 like continual series of just kind of lucky breaks. I 0:07:47.876 --> 0:07:49.756 kind of joke, I think Gorb's like the luckiest person 0:07:49.756 --> 0:07:52.196 I've ever met. So the more I'm associated with Gore, 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:53.436 the luckier the luckier. 0:07:53.716 --> 0:07:56.356 A great move teaming up with the lucky person. 0:07:56.396 --> 0:08:00.356 Yeah. Yeah, he's got incredible, incredible luck. So at this point, Fure, 0:08:00.476 --> 0:08:03.796 I've been long distance with my wife now right, We've 0:08:03.796 --> 0:08:05.716 been long this for seven years. She's like, you're moving 0:08:05.716 --> 0:08:07.476 to Dallas. I'm like, all right, well, Gorb's in Dallas. 0:08:07.476 --> 0:08:10.316 We're going to start this thing. Like let's go. So 0:08:10.396 --> 0:08:13.276 we rent some lab space right behind Dallas left Field Airport, 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:18.916 like four hundred bucks a month. We go to home 0:08:18.956 --> 0:08:21.076 depot to build, like, let's build a proof of concept 0:08:21.116 --> 0:08:25.236 reactor and you know, let's let's do you know, a 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:28.796 basic enzyme and try to make HydroD broxide. 0:08:29.156 --> 0:08:29.396 Okay. 0:08:29.436 --> 0:08:32.596 And what was really fortunate was our pitch video to 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:37.396 thee hundred Coentrepreneurship competition got shared to a Facebook group 0:08:37.956 --> 0:08:42.196 of float spot owners a float spa, a float spot. Yeah. 0:08:42.276 --> 0:08:47.356 So these are saltwater hot tubs that are like isolation 0:08:47.476 --> 0:08:50.156 chambers and like it's. 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:52.356 Like a sensory deprivation tank. 0:08:52.356 --> 0:08:55.716 Sensory deprivation tanks, and it was like a really like 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:59.676 nascent industry pretty much created by Steph Curry. 0:09:00.956 --> 0:09:05.236 And because he's into it, he's into well, maybe I'll 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:07.876 be able to drain threes all day if I go 0:09:07.996 --> 0:09:09.036 to a sensory deprivation. 0:09:09.196 --> 0:09:10.796 I think the one the one common thing when you 0:09:10.836 --> 0:09:12.476 talk to all the owners of these float spots are 0:09:12.476 --> 0:09:14.556 like Steph Curry did so much for this industry. 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:19.276 Okay, so wait, why does your video get like what's 0:09:19.316 --> 0:09:19.836 the connection? 0:09:19.916 --> 0:09:22.436 So one of the float spot owners thought this was 0:09:22.476 --> 0:09:27.156 the coolest thing. They have like trouble buying peroxide. They 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:28.076 have trouble handling it. 0:09:28.196 --> 0:09:30.596 They're also they need peroxide. I don't get the link. 0:09:30.676 --> 0:09:33.196 They use peroxide to clean the hot tubs in between 0:09:33.316 --> 0:09:34.836 people going in and out. So if you if you 0:09:34.876 --> 0:09:36.316 kind of think about it, it's a little bit like 0:09:36.356 --> 0:09:37.876 you're going in and out of hot tub over and 0:09:37.916 --> 0:09:38.316 over again. 0:09:38.396 --> 0:09:39.756 Yeah, nasty, super nasty. 0:09:39.796 --> 0:09:42.076 Yes, you got to clean it well. 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:45.916 And I mean you can buy peroxide at Walgreens. You 0:09:45.916 --> 0:09:48.036 can buy peroxide at the drug store. What's the what's 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:50.276 the why don't they just do that? What's going on? 0:09:50.436 --> 0:09:54.636 So you can, but they use a more concentrated peroxide okay. 0:09:54.916 --> 0:09:58.276 And so it's got some you know, shipping its ships haasmad, 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:02.196 things like that. And so they're also environmentally conscious. So 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:03.876 so I think they also found it fascinating that I 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:05.396 was like, hey, these guys are going to make peroxide 0:10:05.436 --> 0:10:07.836 and they're doing it in a more sustainable way, and 0:10:08.156 --> 0:10:10.316 so we got like inbound. I'm like, hey, if you 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:11.356 make this, we'll buy it. 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:13.276 Okay, that's amazing. 0:10:13.396 --> 0:10:16.196 Yees, We're like this is really cool. So you know, 0:10:16.356 --> 0:10:18.516 built this little it was like seven thousand dollars all 0:10:18.556 --> 0:10:21.356 in like air compressor from a depot, a little PBC reactor. 0:10:21.876 --> 0:10:24.876 So we're feeding at sugar, We're feeding at air. There's 0:10:24.996 --> 0:10:28.396 this engineered enzyme that's like floating around inside of it, okay, 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:31.716 and the sugar in the air react inside the tube, 0:10:32.276 --> 0:10:34.476 and then we have a membrane that keeps the enzyme 0:10:34.516 --> 0:10:37.116 inside okay. And then on the other side of the 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:41.436 membrane we get hydrogen peroxide in an organic acid. 0:10:41.676 --> 0:10:47.436 Okay, and is regular hydrogen peroxide made from petrochemicals like 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:50.636 everything else is this Like, how do you get regular 0:10:50.716 --> 0:10:51.596 hydrogen peroxide? 0:10:52.236 --> 0:10:58.396 It's it's it's fairly fairly epic. Yeah, I've been to 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:00.836 a couple hydroproxide plants. It's it's a super cool process, 0:11:00.876 --> 0:11:02.436 but it's one of those ones that's nuts. 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:06.036 So they create this, give me this short version. What's 0:11:06.076 --> 0:11:09.076 the input, Like, does it starts as a fossil fuel. 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:11.556 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very hard to make 0:11:11.596 --> 0:11:14.596 because it's metastable. That's why it's so useful is that 0:11:14.636 --> 0:11:17.716 it wants to decompose, and when it decomposed it makes 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:20.836 free radicals and that clean stuff, and so it makes 0:11:20.876 --> 0:11:24.116 it sort of difficult to make and you know somewhat 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:26.836 you know, hazardous to make as well, right, and. 0:11:26.756 --> 0:11:29.356 So is this is the enzyme you start with in 0:11:29.396 --> 0:11:34.316 your process based on Goreb's grad school thing, based on 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:37.716 the enzyme in cancer cells that's making hydrogen peroxide. 0:11:37.796 --> 0:11:41.276 Yes, we were essentially taking i'll call them motifs, so 0:11:41.356 --> 0:11:43.876 essentially common motifs from what you would find in this 0:11:44.036 --> 0:11:47.796 like really wonky pancreatic cancer enzyme and then translating it 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:49.716 to more industrial relevant enzyme. 0:11:50.316 --> 0:11:55.716 Huh. So basically you're starting with the pancreatic cancer enzyme 0:11:55.796 --> 0:11:58.716 and saying, how can we kind of use the tools 0:11:58.756 --> 0:12:02.796 of this enzyme to make an enzyme that we can 0:12:02.836 --> 0:12:04.796 put in our tube and have it do what we 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:05.836 want exactly? 0:12:05.876 --> 0:12:08.636 And what was pretty neat is like to me, the 0:12:08.676 --> 0:12:12.116 neatest part the relative scales here. So like on weekends 0:12:12.396 --> 0:12:17.276 we had like one gallon bottles of this peroxide organic 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:19.956 acid mixture, and we would drive around Dallas and we'd 0:12:19.956 --> 0:12:21.316 pour it into people's hot tubs. 0:12:21.436 --> 0:12:24.236 Right, So we were literally you're you're like not just yeah, 0:12:24.956 --> 0:12:26.956 you're like you're like the pool boys. 0:12:27.036 --> 0:12:28.556 We were the pool We were the pool boys. Right. 0:12:28.556 --> 0:12:30.716 We had our three customers and they were super delighted. 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:33.436 And uh and then we learned how to like do 0:12:34.156 --> 0:12:36.836 shipping online and we you know, started shipping to the 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:39.756 other spots. But to make that one gallon bottle, we 0:12:39.756 --> 0:12:44.436 were only using like milligram quantities, like like little just 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:45.876 like fine dust of enzyme. 0:12:46.236 --> 0:12:50.156 Well you're getting thousand x whatever for every unit of enzyme, 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:54.076 you get a thousand or something units of exactly. 0:12:54.116 --> 0:12:56.916 So like it's like a we're like selling this like 0:12:57.236 --> 0:13:00.876 you know really just like i mean barely minimum viable product, right, 0:13:01.876 --> 0:13:04.156 but like we're selling that product with like effectively like 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:07.236 lab scale manufacturing of the actual catalyst. 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:11.836 So you're doing it in this janky, small ass way, 0:13:11.996 --> 0:13:15.636 but you're actually doing this thing. You're making hydrogen peroxide. 0:13:15.756 --> 0:13:16.196 Yeah. 0:13:16.236 --> 0:13:19.116 So okay, so so now we can fast forward a 0:13:19.156 --> 0:13:22.196 little bit. So right, so you you turn this you know, 0:13:22.516 --> 0:13:25.996 janky nights and weekend ideas into what is now a big, 0:13:26.076 --> 0:13:29.836 real company. Right, So so where are you now? 0:13:30.556 --> 0:13:35.316 Yes, so where we are now? So I think, like 0:13:35.596 --> 0:13:37.276 I'll kind of throw out a couple of numbers. So 0:13:37.396 --> 0:13:39.756 last year we shipp two hundred million pounds of material. 0:13:40.396 --> 0:13:44.716 It was about fifty thousand pounds, and so we. 0:13:44.796 --> 0:13:47.716 Have not driving around in your car anymore delivering it. 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:50.076 No, No, we actually move like railcars around now. So 0:13:50.076 --> 0:13:53.436 we've got we've got railcars, we've got tanker trucks, and 0:13:53.756 --> 0:13:56.636 we do a couple of different things. So we we 0:13:56.676 --> 0:13:59.996 manufacture our chemicals and bioforge one, which is our first 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:02.716 commercial plant in Houston, Texas. It's about a ten thousand 0:14:02.716 --> 0:14:03.996 ton prior plant. 0:14:04.556 --> 0:14:07.476 So what are what are you know, what are some 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:08.756 of the things you sell and who do you sell 0:14:08.756 --> 0:14:10.276 it to? What are some of your big products? 0:14:10.316 --> 0:14:13.276 So the theme is still water. So this all started 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:17.316 with you know, driving around pouring chemicals and people's hot tubs. Right. 0:14:18.396 --> 0:14:21.156 We still do water treatment today, so you can think 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:25.636 of municipal water treatment like a wastewater treatment plant, cooling 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.476 water towers that you see outside of like hospitals. In 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:34.076 the energy sector, there's the stuff called produced water, which 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:35.396 a lot of people don't really know about. 0:14:36.196 --> 0:14:38.676 Every barrel comes it's what you get out of fracking. 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:41.316 Like when you send the water into frack, it comes 0:14:41.356 --> 0:14:42.676 back and you got to deal with it. 0:14:42.836 --> 0:14:45.476 Yeah. The kind of the inside joke for the upstream 0:14:45.476 --> 0:14:47.716 oil and gas guys is that they're actually water companies 0:14:47.756 --> 0:14:49.996 that make a little bit of oil. Yeah. So you 0:14:50.036 --> 0:14:52.116 get you get like eight to ten barrels of water 0:14:52.156 --> 0:14:54.116 per barrel of oil, and you got to figure out 0:14:54.156 --> 0:14:54.996 what to do with this stuff, and you. 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:57.276 Gotta like it's nasty, you got to deal with it. 0:14:57.436 --> 0:14:57.636 Yeah. 0:14:57.756 --> 0:15:00.476 Yeah, So you're selling to people who need to treat water, 0:15:00.516 --> 0:15:01.676 what are you selling them? 0:15:01.836 --> 0:15:06.676 Yep? So we sell them HUDH from peroxide. Today we 0:15:06.756 --> 0:15:13.276 sell corrosion, can control, scale control biosides. It's sort of 0:15:13.316 --> 0:15:16.476 like a product portfolio, and our core chemistry that we 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:18.876 make in Bioforge one is a component of all these 0:15:18.876 --> 0:15:19.436 stuff and is. 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:21.236 It a lot of hydrogen peroxide in terms of what 0:15:21.316 --> 0:15:24.356 you're actually making, is still hydrogen proxide like a core product. 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:28.196 So our core product now is actually organic acids. Okay, yep, 0:15:28.276 --> 0:15:31.396 So we still sell HydroD peroxide. We're one of the 0:15:31.516 --> 0:15:36.236 largest sellers of peroxide in Texas actually, but we essentially 0:15:36.236 --> 0:15:39.316 progress the technology further where we actually use the HydroD 0:15:39.356 --> 0:15:43.316 peroxide that we make in process to actually make other chemicals. Aha. 0:15:43.916 --> 0:15:47.596 And so you mentioned Bioforge one. I mean what you 0:15:47.596 --> 0:15:50.516 have is essentially a chemical factory, right, You've built a 0:15:50.556 --> 0:15:53.116 chemical factory, but it's a new kind of chemical factory. 0:15:53.236 --> 0:15:53.396 Yep. 0:15:53.996 --> 0:15:58.236 And so we talked about the like little lab scale 0:15:58.316 --> 0:16:01.716 version that you started with. Tell me about Bioforge one, 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:04.076 about the chemical factory have? Now, just like I come 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:06.316 up on the street, what do I see? 0:16:06.476 --> 0:16:08.476 You see a big tube in the air that's like 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:10.476 two school by is stacked on top of each other. 0:16:10.596 --> 0:16:12.356 And then you see like kind of like. 0:16:12.316 --> 0:16:14.556 A metal like like a metal chimney. 0:16:14.236 --> 0:16:17.036 Or something, big big metal tube that's got all the 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:20.316 enzymes inside. And then and then you see a pipe rack, 0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:23.516 like a big green pipe rack, and then a bunch. 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:26.236 Of tanks and so and and what happens there? I mean, like, 0:16:26.636 --> 0:16:29.836 what's the You're not using oil or gas right as 0:16:29.876 --> 0:16:31.436 your input? What's your what's your input? 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:35.556 We consume railcars of corn syrup. Okay, so railcars of 0:16:35.556 --> 0:16:38.636 corn syrup come in to go into these tanks, and 0:16:38.676 --> 0:16:42.596 then we oxidize the corn syrup in our enzyme ractor. Okay, 0:16:42.916 --> 0:16:46.316 then we make what it's called a metastable intermediate. We 0:16:46.596 --> 0:16:50.116 oxize that metastable intermedia in our metal oxidation ractor. So 0:16:50.356 --> 0:16:52.636 sort of first ractor's Goora, second ractor. 0:16:52.396 --> 0:16:55.556 Sean, And what comes out is like some set of 0:16:55.596 --> 0:16:58.996 potential chemicals depending on what people are buying, a hydrogen 0:16:58.996 --> 0:17:03.236 peroxide or organic acid or whatever, you can sort of 0:17:03.276 --> 0:17:03.796 direct it. 0:17:03.916 --> 0:17:06.876 We're able to tune the product mix. Right now, we're 0:17:06.916 --> 0:17:09.916 focused on the modef you'll call glucaric acid, okay, and 0:17:09.956 --> 0:17:12.716 then you know, we put it in tags and we 0:17:12.716 --> 0:17:13.356 sell to people. 0:17:15.716 --> 0:17:17.276 We'll be back in just a minute. 0:17:19.556 --> 0:17:20.836 Mhm h. 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:31.756 And so is the is the sort of core ongoing 0:17:31.796 --> 0:17:37.676 work that you're doing, like optimizing enzymes to make different chemicals? 0:17:37.716 --> 0:17:41.316 I mean, is that the fundamental sort of technical thing 0:17:41.436 --> 0:17:44.036 you are endlessly working on and trying to develop? 0:17:44.276 --> 0:17:48.276 Yep. Yeah, So so it's actually just a handful of 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:51.756 different enzymes and a handful of metal catalysts that you 0:17:51.796 --> 0:17:53.756 can then kind of like plug and play in the 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:56.636 reactor to make all the different chemicals that you want. 0:17:57.596 --> 0:17:59.516 So do you feel like you're done on that side, 0:17:59.556 --> 0:18:00.636 like what do you what do you what are you 0:18:00.676 --> 0:18:03.236 trying to figure out in that in the sort of 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:04.156 production side. 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:09.396 So, so what you're trying to do for at different states, Right, 0:18:09.436 --> 0:18:11.076 So at the plant level, what you're trying to do 0:18:11.156 --> 0:18:14.236 is run the plant for months and months and months continuously. 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:16.236 You're trying to reduce your costs over time. 0:18:16.876 --> 0:18:21.036 It's sort of classic industrial economics, like you want the 0:18:21.116 --> 0:18:23.436 plant to be producing all the time because you got 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:25.036 to pay all this money for the plant and then 0:18:25.076 --> 0:18:27.996 it's not making a thing you can sell. That's bad. 0:18:28.116 --> 0:18:30.676 Yeah, And you're trying to show like you're trying to 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:32.836 raise like project financings. So we just close the Department 0:18:32.836 --> 0:18:34.076 of Energies loan of. 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:36.916 A lot of money, right, you just get loan for how. 0:18:36.836 --> 0:18:39.516 Much it was like a two hundred and fourteen million dollars. Yeah, 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:43.196 and that's to build a second facility in Marshall, Minnesota. 0:18:43.396 --> 0:18:43.756 Okay. 0:18:44.196 --> 0:18:46.876 And so like for that type of later stage debt, 0:18:46.916 --> 0:18:48.396 what you need to show is not just like hey, 0:18:48.436 --> 0:18:50.476 I've got this stuff working in a lab, and not 0:18:50.516 --> 0:18:52.396 even that like hey I have this working at scale. 0:18:52.516 --> 0:18:56.436 It's that I'm making money at scale, right, that I'm 0:18:56.476 --> 0:18:58.836 running this thing for months and months and months years, 0:18:59.036 --> 0:19:03.876 and you know it's very reliable and the customers are satisfied. 0:19:03.556 --> 0:19:07.796 And so are you there on that one? Like like 0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:10.836 is the fact you built? I mean, I know, is 0:19:10.876 --> 0:19:13.676 it profitable is a complicated question based on different assumptions 0:19:13.756 --> 0:19:15.636 or whatever, but like is it profitable? 0:19:15.916 --> 0:19:18.356 Yeah? Yeah? So actually was? It was really funny because 0:19:18.356 --> 0:19:20.636 when the Independent Engineer came to view so our first 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:23.436 commercial plant. It's first commercial for soal Egen. For other folks, 0:19:23.436 --> 0:19:25.356 they would probably call it a demo plant. 0:19:25.756 --> 0:19:29.036 Because it's small given the scale of the petrochemical industry. 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:30.996 Yeah, it's only ten thousand tons per year, which is 0:19:30.996 --> 0:19:33.636 a pretty pretty small scale. Most most chemical plants are 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:36.036 one hundred thousand tons per year, five hundred thousand. Some 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:38.516 of them are like two million tons per year. They're crazy. 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:41.156 And you know, the Independent year was like, yeah, I've 0:19:41.156 --> 0:19:43.836 been to like one hundred something demo plants. I've never 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:45.996 been to one that's like cash flowing because typically people 0:19:45.996 --> 0:19:48.916 build these things, they run it for like the shortest 0:19:48.916 --> 0:19:50.516 amount of time to make the debt people happy, and 0:19:50.556 --> 0:19:52.396 then they turn the thing off because they lose money 0:19:52.596 --> 0:19:53.516 with every sale. 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:56.556