1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm just listening to that's the walkie talkie again. 2 00:00:25,036 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in an operating chemical plant. 3 00:00:28,356 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 1: Fair enough, Well, so is the is the bioforge? Is 4 00:00:31,116 --> 00:00:33,396 Speaker 1: the factory? Like out the window behind you, you're in 5 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:35,236 Speaker 1: a trailer. Where's the factory from where you are? 6 00:00:35,316 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 2: It's right right right in front of me. 7 00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:39,236 Speaker 1: Could you walk outside and throw a rock and hit it? 8 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah. So we're on the former site of an 9 00:00:42,036 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 2: exploded polyethylene wax distillery. 10 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:45,596 Speaker 1: It exploded. 11 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:49,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, so so I just found in twenty sixteen. But 12 00:00:49,396 --> 00:00:51,956 Speaker 2: the site that we're on exploded in two thousand and five. 13 00:00:52,916 --> 00:00:53,636 Speaker 2: So it's what's called a. 14 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: Did you get a deal? Did you get a deal 15 00:00:55,596 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: because it had blown up? 16 00:00:56,996 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 2: We got a deal? Yeah? Yeah. 17 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 1: So, like your site is a metaphor. It is like 18 00:01:02,236 --> 00:01:06,276 Speaker 1: some a petrochemical plant blew up and you built a 19 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:09,116 Speaker 1: factory on top of the remains exactly. Yeah. 20 00:01:09,196 --> 00:01:11,436 Speaker 2: So that there's actually a Chemical Safety Board report written 21 00:01:11,476 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 2: about it. But it blew out every window in like 22 00:01:13,196 --> 00:01:14,156 Speaker 2: a five mile radius. 23 00:01:14,356 --> 00:01:22,916 Speaker 1: Holy kah. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's your Problem? 24 00:01:22,956 --> 00:01:24,996 Speaker 1: The show where I talk to people who are trying 25 00:01:24,996 --> 00:01:29,036 Speaker 1: to make technological progress. My guest today is Sean Hunt. 26 00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: He's the co founder and CTO of a chemical company 27 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:36,836 Speaker 1: called Solugen. Solugen sells around one hundred million dollars a 28 00:01:36,916 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: year worth of industrial chemicals, but instead of making the 29 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 1: chemicals from fossil fuels the way they're typically made, Sologen 30 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: makes them from corn syrup. Sean's problem is this, how 31 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 1: do you make the chemicals that go into everything around us, 32 00:01:51,356 --> 00:01:55,476 Speaker 1: our food, our clothes, our cars without using fossil fuel. 33 00:01:56,756 --> 00:01:59,956 Speaker 1: We've talked a lot on the show about the energy transition, 34 00:02:00,476 --> 00:02:03,316 Speaker 1: the move away from fossil fuels as sources of energy. 35 00:02:03,716 --> 00:02:06,676 Speaker 1: What Solugen is really working on is the chemical transition. 36 00:02:07,036 --> 00:02:11,836 Speaker 1: Basically same idea, but for instead of energy. Solujen got 37 00:02:11,836 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 1: its start at a poker table. Sean was getting his 38 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:19,076 Speaker 1: PhD studying catalysts, in particular the kinds of catalysts that 39 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: are used to make industrial chemicals out of coal, oil, 40 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:25,596 Speaker 1: and gas. Sitting across the table from him was another 41 00:02:25,636 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 1: grad student, another PhD student, a guy named Gorb Chakrabarti, 42 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 1: who was studying biology in particular. He was studying enzymes 43 00:02:33,636 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: in cancer cells, and enzymes, as it happens, are a 44 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:40,036 Speaker 1: kind of catalyst that thing Sean was studying in a 45 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:43,516 Speaker 1: very different context. So of course Jean and Gorub started 46 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:44,956 Speaker 1: talking about catalysts. 47 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:48,396 Speaker 2: Catalysts in general are used to make the physical world 48 00:02:48,436 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 2: around you. Right, So the food that you eat, the 49 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:53,236 Speaker 2: clothes that you wear, the car that you drive, the 50 00:02:53,276 --> 00:02:56,356 Speaker 2: house that you live in, all of those things were 51 00:02:56,436 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 2: made using catalysts. 52 00:02:58,196 --> 00:03:01,076 Speaker 1: Okay, and this is what you're studying in grad school. 53 00:03:01,276 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 2: Yep. 54 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the guy sitting across from you at the poker table, Gorab, 55 00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:07,636 Speaker 1: what's he studying. 56 00:03:07,676 --> 00:03:11,796 Speaker 2: So what he's studying is like catalysts gone wild. So 57 00:03:12,996 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 2: in he's studying pangramic cancer. And so in a cancer 58 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:18,556 Speaker 2: cell is the catalysts that are in there, which are 59 00:03:18,716 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 2: enzyme catalysts, these little folded up proteins. They evolve in 60 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:28,156 Speaker 2: a really strange, very unfortunate way. That is one of 61 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 2: the reasons that cancer is so bad. But one of 62 00:03:32,036 --> 00:03:34,476 Speaker 2: our conversations was, like, you know, he's describing these enzymes. 63 00:03:34,476 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 2: I mean, like, how are they operating in this kind 64 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:38,716 Speaker 2: of crazy environment? Like enzyme shouldn't be able to do that? 65 00:03:39,316 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 2: Like it like that's actually approaching an industrially relevant environment. 66 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 2: It's unfortunate. It's happening inside a cancer cell. But it's like, hey, 67 00:03:45,516 --> 00:03:47,836 Speaker 2: that's actually like that could actually have some uses. 68 00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 1: Huh. It's really bad when it happens inside your body, 69 00:03:51,036 --> 00:03:53,396 Speaker 1: but if you could make it happen in a factory, 70 00:03:53,436 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 1: it might be useful. 71 00:03:54,356 --> 00:03:55,036 Speaker 2: It might be useful. 72 00:03:55,076 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: Exactly your research and his research coming together. It's like 73 00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 1: the hyper nerd version of like the RECSS peanut butter cup, 74 00:04:01,876 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: like chocolate and peanut butter, but for catalysts. 75 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:08,316 Speaker 2: Jacob, I have many friends. I have so many friends. 76 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:14,636 Speaker 1: So okay, but as you and Gora are talking about this, 77 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: like really, why are these enzymes that he's studying, you know, 78 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:21,756 Speaker 1: potentially useful in an industrial setting? 79 00:04:21,916 --> 00:04:24,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you think about it, like what does 80 00:04:24,796 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 2: what does the enzyme have to offer? Yeah, so what 81 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:30,316 Speaker 2: an enzyme can do is it could convert a raw 82 00:04:30,356 --> 00:04:33,956 Speaker 2: material into a product at room temperature and water with 83 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:34,756 Speaker 2: perfect yield. 84 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 1: Well that's the dream. That's like the cold fusion of 85 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:38,676 Speaker 1: your business. 86 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:40,836 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, enzymes are they're pretty much like the 87 00:04:40,836 --> 00:04:43,796 Speaker 2: cold fusion of catalysis, Like they can do everything that 88 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:46,796 Speaker 2: you want to do in a manufacturing process, like perfectly. 89 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: But the problem's amazing, what's the catch. 90 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:52,396 Speaker 2: Well, the problem is they're delicate, right, So, so like historically, 91 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:54,836 Speaker 2: like they're hard to make, they're very expensive to make, 92 00:04:54,876 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 2: and like you know, I'll give you an example, like 93 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 2: like some of the early like enzymes that you find 94 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 2: in nature that you want to put in a chemical plant. 95 00:05:03,116 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 2: That enzyme might cost two thousand dollars a pound to make, right, 96 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,236 Speaker 2: Chemicals are sold for two dollars. 97 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:11,596 Speaker 1: A pound, right, Yeah, and so and you're making plastic, 98 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: you're making commodity, you're making commodities, or you can't spend 99 00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 1: two thousand dollars a pound for your yeah, because catalyst. 100 00:05:17,196 --> 00:05:18,876 Speaker 2: Because if you can only make like one pound of 101 00:05:18,916 --> 00:05:21,276 Speaker 2: your product per pound of enzyme, you're done. I mean 102 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:22,556 Speaker 2: there's no business to be had there. 103 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:24,276 Speaker 1: You're a thousand times off. 104 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you're way off right Now, What if you 105 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:30,556 Speaker 2: could evolve that enzyme in the lab. This is called 106 00:05:30,556 --> 00:05:33,156 Speaker 2: directive evolution, and you can use machine learning AI. There's 107 00:05:33,196 --> 00:05:35,116 Speaker 2: all sorts of cool stuff that like changes literally every 108 00:05:35,196 --> 00:05:36,836 Speaker 2: year on how to do this. What if you could 109 00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:39,676 Speaker 2: evolve that enzyme to make one hundred thousand pounds of 110 00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:43,556 Speaker 2: product per pound of enzyme. Huh. Now, now you have 111 00:05:43,676 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: a business here. You could actually incorporate that enzyme into 112 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:49,996 Speaker 2: a chemical plant because you're going to consume so little 113 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:52,996 Speaker 2: of it that even though that enzyme is expensive, it 114 00:05:53,076 --> 00:05:55,916 Speaker 2: has perfect yield in water at room temperature. I mean, 115 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:57,316 Speaker 2: that's an incredible capability. 116 00:05:58,156 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 1: And so this, I mean you mentioned like, so what 117 00:06:01,156 --> 00:06:04,076 Speaker 1: if you could evolve meeting sort of direct the evolution 118 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:10,356 Speaker 1: of that enzyme? Right, this is a relatively new idea, right, Like, obviously, 119 00:06:10,356 --> 00:06:12,676 Speaker 1: people have known about enzymes for a long time and 120 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:15,836 Speaker 1: they're essential to like everything that happens in our body. 121 00:06:16,076 --> 00:06:20,276 Speaker 1: Not quite but kind of, right, So this is the 122 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:24,396 Speaker 1: key idea. Then it's like what if we everybody knows 123 00:06:24,596 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: enzymes can do this, but they're not. They're too expensive 124 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:31,196 Speaker 1: slash not efficient enough. Right, the amount of enzyme you 125 00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 1: have to use is too expensive given the amount of 126 00:06:34,076 --> 00:06:37,756 Speaker 1: product you get. And you guys realize that there is 127 00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:42,316 Speaker 1: this relatively recent scientific research that suggests you can get 128 00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:46,276 Speaker 1: enzymes to produce way more product per unit enzyme per 129 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:51,796 Speaker 1: enzyme exactly, So like, so what do you do? 130 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,356 Speaker 2: Kind Of as this was happening, you know, I was 131 00:06:55,396 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 2: coming up, I was on my last year and about 132 00:06:57,516 --> 00:07:01,276 Speaker 2: to graduate, and I'm kind of having you know, I 133 00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 2: don't know, maybe maybe a bit of a crisis on 134 00:07:04,036 --> 00:07:06,236 Speaker 2: like that, Like I really like the in academia. I 135 00:07:06,236 --> 00:07:08,316 Speaker 2: don't really want to go work for a big company 136 00:07:08,356 --> 00:07:09,756 Speaker 2: like I've worked for big But he's in the past 137 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:12,916 Speaker 2: not a huge fan. And you know, it's like if 138 00:07:12,956 --> 00:07:15,116 Speaker 2: there's a time in my life to try something, like, 139 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 2: let's do it. And Gore was kind of having a 140 00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 2: similar thing, like he he really liked the PhD program, 141 00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:22,356 Speaker 2: but then he did his final two years back in 142 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 2: med school and like was just not love and medicine. 143 00:07:25,236 --> 00:07:26,556 Speaker 2: And so we were like, well, what if we could 144 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:29,676 Speaker 2: make something work here, And so we entered the MIT 145 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 2: hundred k entrepreneurship competition in twenty sixteen. We got ten 146 00:07:35,316 --> 00:07:38,396 Speaker 2: thousand bucks, and I mean we were super jazzed. I 147 00:07:38,396 --> 00:07:39,876 Speaker 2: mean we were like, oh my gosh, like we have 148 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:42,916 Speaker 2: some seed money. This is incredible. And sort of the 149 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:44,676 Speaker 2: rest of this is sort of again like this just 150 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,836 Speaker 2: like continual series of just kind of lucky breaks. I 151 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 2: kind of joke, I think Gorb's like the luckiest person 152 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:52,196 Speaker 2: I've ever met. So the more I'm associated with Gore, 153 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:53,436 Speaker 2: the luckier the luckier. 154 00:07:53,716 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 1: A great move teaming up with the lucky person. 155 00:07:56,396 --> 00:08:00,356 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he's got incredible, incredible luck. So at this point, Fure, 156 00:08:00,476 --> 00:08:03,796 Speaker 2: I've been long distance with my wife now right, We've 157 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:05,716 Speaker 2: been long this for seven years. She's like, you're moving 158 00:08:05,716 --> 00:08:07,476 Speaker 2: to Dallas. I'm like, all right, well, Gorb's in Dallas. 159 00:08:07,476 --> 00:08:10,316 Speaker 2: We're going to start this thing. Like let's go. So 160 00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 2: we rent some lab space right behind Dallas left Field Airport, 161 00:08:13,596 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 2: like four hundred bucks a month. We go to home 162 00:08:18,956 --> 00:08:21,076 Speaker 2: depot to build, like, let's build a proof of concept 163 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:25,236 Speaker 2: reactor and you know, let's let's do you know, a 164 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:28,796 Speaker 2: basic enzyme and try to make HydroD broxide. 165 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 1: Okay. 166 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 2: And what was really fortunate was our pitch video to 167 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 2: thee hundred Coentrepreneurship competition got shared to a Facebook group 168 00:08:37,956 --> 00:08:42,196 Speaker 2: of float spot owners a float spa, a float spot. Yeah. 169 00:08:42,276 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 2: So these are saltwater hot tubs that are like isolation 170 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 2: chambers and like it's. 171 00:08:49,956 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: Like a sensory deprivation tank. 172 00:08:52,356 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 2: Sensory deprivation tanks, and it was like a really like 173 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 2: nascent industry pretty much created by Steph Curry. 174 00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:05,236 Speaker 1: And because he's into it, he's into well, maybe I'll 175 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 1: be able to drain threes all day if I go 176 00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:09,036 Speaker 1: to a sensory deprivation. 177 00:09:09,196 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 2: I think the one the one common thing when you 178 00:09:10,836 --> 00:09:12,476 Speaker 2: talk to all the owners of these float spots are 179 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:14,556 Speaker 2: like Steph Curry did so much for this industry. 180 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:19,276 Speaker 1: Okay, so wait, why does your video get like what's 181 00:09:19,316 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 1: the connection? 182 00:09:19,916 --> 00:09:22,436 Speaker 2: So one of the float spot owners thought this was 183 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 2: the coolest thing. They have like trouble buying peroxide. They 184 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:28,076 Speaker 2: have trouble handling it. 185 00:09:28,196 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 1: They're also they need peroxide. I don't get the link. 186 00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 2: They use peroxide to clean the hot tubs in between 187 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:34,836 Speaker 2: people going in and out. So if you if you 188 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 2: kind of think about it, it's a little bit like 189 00:09:36,356 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 2: you're going in and out of hot tub over and 190 00:09:37,916 --> 00:09:38,316 Speaker 2: over again. 191 00:09:38,396 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, nasty, super nasty. 192 00:09:39,796 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 2: Yes, you got to clean it well. 193 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:45,916 Speaker 1: And I mean you can buy peroxide at Walgreens. You 194 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: can buy peroxide at the drug store. What's the what's 195 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: the why don't they just do that? What's going on? 196 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:54,636 Speaker 2: So you can, but they use a more concentrated peroxide okay. 197 00:09:54,916 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: And so it's got some you know, shipping its ships haasmad, 198 00:09:58,396 --> 00:10:02,196 Speaker 2: things like that. And so they're also environmentally conscious. So 199 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:03,876 Speaker 2: so I think they also found it fascinating that I 200 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:05,396 Speaker 2: was like, hey, these guys are going to make peroxide 201 00:10:05,436 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 2: and they're doing it in a more sustainable way, and 202 00:10:08,156 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 2: so we got like inbound. I'm like, hey, if you 203 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 2: make this, we'll buy it. 204 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 1: Okay, that's amazing. 205 00:10:13,396 --> 00:10:16,196 Speaker 2: Yees, We're like this is really cool. So you know, 206 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:18,516 Speaker 2: built this little it was like seven thousand dollars all 207 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 2: in like air compressor from a depot, a little PBC reactor. 208 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:24,876 Speaker 2: So we're feeding at sugar, We're feeding at air. There's 209 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 2: this engineered enzyme that's like floating around inside of it, okay, 210 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:31,716 Speaker 2: and the sugar in the air react inside the tube, 211 00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:34,476 Speaker 2: and then we have a membrane that keeps the enzyme 212 00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 2: inside okay. And then on the other side of the 213 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:41,436 Speaker 2: membrane we get hydrogen peroxide in an organic acid. 214 00:10:41,676 --> 00:10:47,436 Speaker 1: Okay, and is regular hydrogen peroxide made from petrochemicals like 215 00:10:47,436 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 1: everything else is this Like, how do you get regular 216 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: hydrogen peroxide? 217 00:10:52,236 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 2: It's it's it's fairly fairly epic. Yeah, I've been to 218 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 2: a couple hydroproxide plants. It's it's a super cool process, 219 00:11:00,876 --> 00:11:02,436 Speaker 2: but it's one of those ones that's nuts. 220 00:11:02,516 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 1: So they create this, give me this short version. What's 221 00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:09,076 Speaker 1: the input, Like, does it starts as a fossil fuel. 222 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:11,556 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's very hard to make 223 00:11:11,596 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 2: because it's metastable. That's why it's so useful is that 224 00:11:14,636 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 2: it wants to decompose, and when it decomposed it makes 225 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 2: free radicals and that clean stuff, and so it makes 226 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:24,116 Speaker 2: it sort of difficult to make and you know somewhat 227 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:26,836 Speaker 2: you know, hazardous to make as well, right, and. 228 00:11:26,756 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 1: So is this is the enzyme you start with in 229 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:34,316 Speaker 1: your process based on Goreb's grad school thing, based on 230 00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:37,716 Speaker 1: the enzyme in cancer cells that's making hydrogen peroxide. 231 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:41,276 Speaker 2: Yes, we were essentially taking i'll call them motifs, so 232 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 2: essentially common motifs from what you would find in this 233 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:47,796 Speaker 2: like really wonky pancreatic cancer enzyme and then translating it 234 00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:49,716 Speaker 2: to more industrial relevant enzyme. 235 00:11:50,316 --> 00:11:55,716 Speaker 1: Huh. So basically you're starting with the pancreatic cancer enzyme 236 00:11:55,796 --> 00:11:58,716 Speaker 1: and saying, how can we kind of use the tools 237 00:11:58,756 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: of this enzyme to make an enzyme that we can 238 00:12:02,836 --> 00:12:04,796 Speaker 1: put in our tube and have it do what we 239 00:12:04,836 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 1: want exactly? 240 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:08,636 Speaker 2: And what was pretty neat is like to me, the 241 00:12:08,676 --> 00:12:12,116 Speaker 2: neatest part the relative scales here. So like on weekends 242 00:12:12,396 --> 00:12:17,276 Speaker 2: we had like one gallon bottles of this peroxide organic 243 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:19,956 Speaker 2: acid mixture, and we would drive around Dallas and we'd 244 00:12:19,956 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 2: pour it into people's hot tubs. 245 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:24,236 Speaker 1: Right, So we were literally you're you're like not just yeah, 246 00:12:24,956 --> 00:12:26,956 Speaker 1: you're like you're like the pool boys. 247 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 2: We were the pool We were the pool boys. Right. 248 00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:30,716 Speaker 2: We had our three customers and they were super delighted. 249 00:12:31,196 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 2: And uh and then we learned how to like do 250 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 2: shipping online and we you know, started shipping to the 251 00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:39,756 Speaker 2: other spots. But to make that one gallon bottle, we 252 00:12:39,756 --> 00:12:44,436 Speaker 2: were only using like milligram quantities, like like little just 253 00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:45,876 Speaker 2: like fine dust of enzyme. 254 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 1: Well you're getting thousand x whatever for every unit of enzyme, 255 00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:54,076 Speaker 1: you get a thousand or something units of exactly. 256 00:12:54,116 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 2: So like it's like a we're like selling this like 257 00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:00,876 Speaker 2: you know really just like i mean barely minimum viable product, right, 258 00:13:01,876 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 2: but like we're selling that product with like effectively like 259 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:07,236 Speaker 2: lab scale manufacturing of the actual catalyst. 260 00:13:07,356 --> 00:13:11,836 Speaker 1: So you're doing it in this janky, small ass way, 261 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 1: but you're actually doing this thing. You're making hydrogen peroxide. 262 00:13:15,756 --> 00:13:16,196 Speaker 2: Yeah. 263 00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 1: So okay, so so now we can fast forward a 264 00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 1: little bit. So right, so you you turn this you know, 265 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: janky nights and weekend ideas into what is now a big, 266 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:29,836 Speaker 1: real company. Right, So so where are you now? 267 00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:35,316 Speaker 2: Yes, so where we are now? So I think, like 268 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:37,276 Speaker 2: I'll kind of throw out a couple of numbers. So 269 00:13:37,396 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 2: last year we shipp two hundred million pounds of material. 270 00:13:40,396 --> 00:13:44,716 Speaker 2: It was about fifty thousand pounds, and so we. 271 00:13:44,796 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: Have not driving around in your car anymore delivering it. 272 00:13:47,836 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 2: No, No, we actually move like railcars around now. So 273 00:13:50,076 --> 00:13:53,436 Speaker 2: we've got we've got railcars, we've got tanker trucks, and 274 00:13:53,756 --> 00:13:56,636 Speaker 2: we do a couple of different things. So we we 275 00:13:56,676 --> 00:13:59,996 Speaker 2: manufacture our chemicals and bioforge one, which is our first 276 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 2: commercial plant in Houston, Texas. It's about a ten thousand 277 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 2: ton prior plant. 278 00:14:04,556 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 1: So what are what are you know, what are some 279 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 1: of the things you sell and who do you sell 280 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 1: it to? What are some of your big products? 281 00:14:10,316 --> 00:14:13,276 Speaker 2: So the theme is still water. So this all started 282 00:14:13,316 --> 00:14:17,316 Speaker 2: with you know, driving around pouring chemicals and people's hot tubs. Right. 283 00:14:18,396 --> 00:14:21,156 Speaker 2: We still do water treatment today, so you can think 284 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 2: of municipal water treatment like a wastewater treatment plant, cooling 285 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 2: water towers that you see outside of like hospitals. In 286 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:34,076 Speaker 2: the energy sector, there's the stuff called produced water, which 287 00:14:34,076 --> 00:14:35,396 Speaker 2: a lot of people don't really know about. 288 00:14:36,196 --> 00:14:38,676 Speaker 1: Every barrel comes it's what you get out of fracking. 289 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:41,316 Speaker 1: Like when you send the water into frack, it comes 290 00:14:41,356 --> 00:14:42,676 Speaker 1: back and you got to deal with it. 291 00:14:42,836 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 2: Yeah. The kind of the inside joke for the upstream 292 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:47,716 Speaker 2: oil and gas guys is that they're actually water companies 293 00:14:47,756 --> 00:14:49,996 Speaker 2: that make a little bit of oil. Yeah. So you 294 00:14:50,036 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 2: get you get like eight to ten barrels of water 295 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 2: per barrel of oil, and you got to figure out 296 00:14:54,156 --> 00:14:54,996 Speaker 2: what to do with this stuff, and you. 297 00:14:54,996 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 1: Gotta like it's nasty, you got to deal with it. 298 00:14:57,436 --> 00:14:57,636 Speaker 2: Yeah. 299 00:14:57,756 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you're selling to people who need to treat water, 300 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:01,676 Speaker 1: what are you selling them? 301 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:06,676 Speaker 2: Yep? So we sell them HUDH from peroxide. Today we 302 00:15:06,756 --> 00:15:13,276 Speaker 2: sell corrosion, can control, scale control biosides. It's sort of 303 00:15:13,316 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 2: like a product portfolio, and our core chemistry that we 304 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 2: make in Bioforge one is a component of all these 305 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:19,436 Speaker 2: stuff and is. 306 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 1: It a lot of hydrogen peroxide in terms of what 307 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 1: you're actually making, is still hydrogen proxide like a core product. 308 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 2: So our core product now is actually organic acids. Okay, yep, 309 00:15:28,276 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 2: So we still sell HydroD peroxide. We're one of the 310 00:15:31,516 --> 00:15:36,236 Speaker 2: largest sellers of peroxide in Texas actually, but we essentially 311 00:15:36,236 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 2: progress the technology further where we actually use the HydroD 312 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 2: peroxide that we make in process to actually make other chemicals. Aha. 313 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: And so you mentioned Bioforge one. I mean what you 314 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 1: have is essentially a chemical factory, right, You've built a 315 00:15:50,556 --> 00:15:53,116 Speaker 1: chemical factory, but it's a new kind of chemical factory. 316 00:15:53,236 --> 00:15:53,396 Speaker 2: Yep. 317 00:15:53,996 --> 00:15:58,236 Speaker 1: And so we talked about the like little lab scale 318 00:15:58,316 --> 00:16:01,716 Speaker 1: version that you started with. Tell me about Bioforge one, 319 00:16:01,716 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 1: about the chemical factory have? Now, just like I come 320 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:06,316 Speaker 1: up on the street, what do I see? 321 00:16:06,476 --> 00:16:08,476 Speaker 2: You see a big tube in the air that's like 322 00:16:08,476 --> 00:16:10,476 Speaker 2: two school by is stacked on top of each other. 323 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 2: And then you see like kind of like. 324 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 1: A metal like like a metal chimney. 325 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 2: Or something, big big metal tube that's got all the 326 00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:20,316 Speaker 2: enzymes inside. And then and then you see a pipe rack, 327 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:23,516 Speaker 2: like a big green pipe rack, and then a bunch. 328 00:16:23,356 --> 00:16:26,236 Speaker 1: Of tanks and so and and what happens there? I mean, like, 329 00:16:26,636 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 1: what's the You're not using oil or gas right as 330 00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 1: your input? What's your what's your input? 331 00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 2: We consume railcars of corn syrup. Okay, so railcars of 332 00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:38,636 Speaker 2: corn syrup come in to go into these tanks, and 333 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:42,596 Speaker 2: then we oxidize the corn syrup in our enzyme ractor. Okay, 334 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,316 Speaker 2: then we make what it's called a metastable intermediate. We 335 00:16:46,596 --> 00:16:50,116 Speaker 2: oxize that metastable intermedia in our metal oxidation ractor. So 336 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 2: sort of first ractor's Goora, second ractor. 337 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:55,556 Speaker 1: Sean, And what comes out is like some set of 338 00:16:55,596 --> 00:16:58,996 Speaker 1: potential chemicals depending on what people are buying, a hydrogen 339 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:03,236 Speaker 1: peroxide or organic acid or whatever, you can sort of 340 00:17:03,276 --> 00:17:03,796 Speaker 1: direct it. 341 00:17:03,916 --> 00:17:06,876 Speaker 2: We're able to tune the product mix. Right now, we're 342 00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 2: focused on the modef you'll call glucaric acid, okay, and 343 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:12,716 Speaker 2: then you know, we put it in tags and we 344 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:13,356 Speaker 2: sell to people. 345 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. 346 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:20,836 Speaker 2: Mhm h. 347 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:31,756 Speaker 1: And so is the is the sort of core ongoing 348 00:17:31,796 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: work that you're doing, like optimizing enzymes to make different chemicals? 349 00:17:37,716 --> 00:17:41,316 Speaker 1: I mean, is that the fundamental sort of technical thing 350 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 1: you are endlessly working on and trying to develop? 351 00:17:44,276 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah, So so it's actually just a handful of 352 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 2: different enzymes and a handful of metal catalysts that you 353 00:17:51,796 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 2: can then kind of like plug and play in the 354 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:56,636 Speaker 2: reactor to make all the different chemicals that you want. 355 00:17:57,596 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 1: So do you feel like you're done on that side, 356 00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 1: like what do you what do you what are you 357 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:03,236 Speaker 1: trying to figure out in that in the sort of 358 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:04,156 Speaker 1: production side. 359 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:09,396 Speaker 2: So, so what you're trying to do for at different states, Right, 360 00:18:09,436 --> 00:18:11,076 Speaker 2: So at the plant level, what you're trying to do 361 00:18:11,156 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 2: is run the plant for months and months and months continuously. 362 00:18:14,436 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 2: You're trying to reduce your costs over time. 363 00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:21,036 Speaker 1: It's sort of classic industrial economics, like you want the 364 00:18:21,116 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: plant to be producing all the time because you got 365 00:18:23,476 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: to pay all this money for the plant and then 366 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:27,996 Speaker 1: it's not making a thing you can sell. That's bad. 367 00:18:28,116 --> 00:18:30,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're trying to show like you're trying to 368 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:32,836 Speaker 2: raise like project financings. So we just close the Department 369 00:18:32,836 --> 00:18:34,076 Speaker 2: of Energies loan of. 370 00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 1: A lot of money, right, you just get loan for how. 371 00:18:36,836 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 2: Much it was like a two hundred and fourteen million dollars. Yeah, 372 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:43,196 Speaker 2: and that's to build a second facility in Marshall, Minnesota. 373 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:43,756 Speaker 1: Okay. 374 00:18:44,196 --> 00:18:46,876 Speaker 2: And so like for that type of later stage debt, 375 00:18:46,916 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 2: what you need to show is not just like hey, 376 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:50,476 Speaker 2: I've got this stuff working in a lab, and not 377 00:18:50,516 --> 00:18:52,396 Speaker 2: even that like hey I have this working at scale. 378 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:56,436 Speaker 2: It's that I'm making money at scale, right, that I'm 379 00:18:56,476 --> 00:18:58,836 Speaker 2: running this thing for months and months and months years, 380 00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:03,876 Speaker 2: and you know it's very reliable and the customers are satisfied. 381 00:19:03,556 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: And so are you there on that one? Like like 382 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: is the fact you built? I mean, I know, is 383 00:19:10,876 --> 00:19:13,676 Speaker 1: it profitable is a complicated question based on different assumptions 384 00:19:13,756 --> 00:19:15,636 Speaker 1: or whatever, but like is it profitable? 385 00:19:15,916 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah? So actually was? It was really funny because 386 00:19:18,356 --> 00:19:20,636 Speaker 2: when the Independent Engineer came to view so our first 387 00:19:20,636 --> 00:19:23,436 Speaker 2: commercial plant. It's first commercial for soal Egen. For other folks, 388 00:19:23,436 --> 00:19:25,356 Speaker 2: they would probably call it a demo plant. 389 00:19:25,756 --> 00:19:29,036 Speaker 1: Because it's small given the scale of the petrochemical industry. 390 00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:30,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's only ten thousand tons per year, which is 391 00:19:30,996 --> 00:19:33,636 Speaker 2: a pretty pretty small scale. Most most chemical plants are 392 00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand tons per year, five hundred thousand. Some 393 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:38,516 Speaker 2: of them are like two million tons per year. They're crazy. 394 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:41,156 Speaker 2: And you know, the Independent year was like, yeah, I've 395 00:19:41,156 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 2: been to like one hundred something demo plants. I've never 396 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:45,996 Speaker 2: been to one that's like cash flowing because typically people 397 00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:48,916 Speaker 2: build these things, they run it for like the shortest 398 00:19:48,916 --> 00:19:50,516 Speaker 2: amount of time to make the debt people happy, and 399 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:52,396 Speaker 2: then they turn the thing off because they lose money 400 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:53,516 Speaker 2: with every sale. 401 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 1: And is there is there a Is there a technical 402 00:19:56,596 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 1: reason why you can have a smaller plant be profitable? 403 00:19:59,436 --> 00:20:02,276 Speaker 1: Do you sell your product for more? Is there like 404 00:20:02,276 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 1: a green premium on it? 405 00:20:03,916 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 2: No, it's two things. So the first one is we're 406 00:20:06,476 --> 00:20:09,876 Speaker 2: starting with specialty chemicals, not commodity chemicals. So like I 407 00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:12,516 Speaker 2: don't want to be selling a molecule to somebody, I 408 00:20:12,596 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 2: want to be selling a solution to the problem. 409 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,596 Speaker 1: So the output the thing you're selling is has a 410 00:20:17,636 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 1: higher markup built into it basically. 411 00:20:19,716 --> 00:20:22,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like we're going to market direct, We're 412 00:20:22,276 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 2: not trying to sell their distribution, Okay. And then the 413 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:29,196 Speaker 2: second is that we can build small plants faster, right, 414 00:20:29,236 --> 00:20:31,276 Speaker 2: So like we only have three unit ops, we don't 415 00:20:31,276 --> 00:20:35,156 Speaker 2: have fifteen unit oups. We have higher yields. So, like, imagine, 416 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 2: if you just go for simple math, if I have 417 00:20:38,476 --> 00:20:41,356 Speaker 2: to buy, you know, one hundred pounds of raw material 418 00:20:41,356 --> 00:20:43,596 Speaker 2: to make a hundred pounds of product, but my competitor 419 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 2: has to buy two hundred pounds of raw material to 420 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:48,236 Speaker 2: make one hundred pounds of product, their cost structure is 421 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:49,636 Speaker 2: two x mine exactly. 422 00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 1: Okay, So I think you were giving me reasons you 423 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:58,156 Speaker 1: can be profitable at smaller scale, Are there more or 424 00:20:58,196 --> 00:20:59,036 Speaker 1: are are we done with that? 425 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 2: Well, I would say there's a there's also like a 426 00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 2: nuance and a caveat in terms of like how the 427 00:21:03,196 --> 00:21:05,836 Speaker 2: chemicals industry works that I just find this to be 428 00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 2: particularly fascinating. So you can have structurally differentiated margins from 429 00:21:12,636 --> 00:21:14,716 Speaker 2: the standpoint of like you know, saogen, it's better yields. 430 00:21:14,716 --> 00:21:17,556 Speaker 2: That's great, But then what you don't want to do 431 00:21:17,596 --> 00:21:20,316 Speaker 2: is compete against someone else's depreciated cabbex. 432 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,356 Speaker 1: Right, meaning they built the factory thirty years ago, they 433 00:21:24,356 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 1: don't have to pay for it anymore, so they can 434 00:21:27,116 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: just essentially treat it as free, and then they will 435 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:32,196 Speaker 1: always be able to underprice you exactly. 436 00:21:32,516 --> 00:21:36,156 Speaker 2: They've got a really diversified set of chemicals that they're making, 437 00:21:36,276 --> 00:21:37,516 Speaker 2: and so like if you try to go head to 438 00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 2: head against them. 439 00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:41,836 Speaker 1: A conglomerate like Dow or do Pont, like a giant 440 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:43,956 Speaker 1: chemical company that I have heard of, even though I 441 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 1: don't know about this. 442 00:21:44,596 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 2: Business exactly, right, So, like, if you start going in 443 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:51,116 Speaker 2: there and putting new chemicals on the market, right and 444 00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:54,836 Speaker 2: lowering that price as a result, they can actually run 445 00:21:54,836 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 2: at a loss for years forever forever. 446 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:00,956 Speaker 1: They don't they could the amount of revenue that you 447 00:22:01,036 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 1: have is so trivial to them that they could just underprice. 448 00:22:03,516 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 2: You forever exactly, and so like like it's one of 449 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:07,996 Speaker 2: the things I find the most fun about the chemicals 450 00:22:07,996 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 2: industry is like the market tree strategy on Like, well 451 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:12,436 Speaker 2: what because I gets all, like we can we have 452 00:22:12,836 --> 00:22:14,836 Speaker 2: all sorts of patterns on all these different chemicals. It's 453 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:17,036 Speaker 2: like what do you launch first? What do you launch second? 454 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:19,396 Speaker 2: Like why are you launching these chemicals next? 455 00:22:19,556 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: And well, like it reminds me of the hydrogen peroxide 456 00:22:22,196 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: for the float spot, right, It's like this weird little 457 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 1: market that really cares and that you can sell at 458 00:22:27,676 --> 00:22:30,116 Speaker 1: a premium to. I mean, have you essentially been able 459 00:22:30,116 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 1: to keep doing that in kind of broader concentric circles, 460 00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: bigger markets. 461 00:22:33,676 --> 00:22:37,196 Speaker 2: That that's precisely it, And so like our most immediate 462 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:40,236 Speaker 2: goal is like have a network of bioforges that are 463 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:44,036 Speaker 2: selling specialty chemicals that are paying for themselves, they're depreciating, 464 00:22:44,036 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 2: they're profitable, and then we come back around and we 465 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:49,916 Speaker 2: start bolting on the capabilities to make more of the 466 00:22:49,916 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 2: commodity chemicals in the future. 467 00:22:51,716 --> 00:22:56,756 Speaker 1: So like right now, like why I get why the 468 00:22:56,756 --> 00:22:59,036 Speaker 1: float spot people were willing to pay you more for 469 00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 1: hydrogen proxide. Why are people willing? Like, what is it 470 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 1: that you're selling now that is like, you know, you're 471 00:23:05,276 --> 00:23:07,636 Speaker 1: particularly able to sell at a profit at the scale 472 00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:08,236 Speaker 1: you're at now. 473 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:13,836 Speaker 2: Yes, So let's talk about on the water treatment side. Yeah, 474 00:23:14,276 --> 00:23:17,476 Speaker 2: So on the water treatment side, let's say you're a 475 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 2: municipality and you're trying to clean up your water. If 476 00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 2: ultimately what you're measuring is like, here's my cost and 477 00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:27,996 Speaker 2: I'm spending on chemicals to get my water clean And 478 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 2: if we come in with a package that is cheaper 479 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:34,316 Speaker 2: than how much you're spending to get that same cleanliness, 480 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 2: that's a valuebrole. That's price per performance. Sure. And then 481 00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 2: the second is security of supply. So a lot of 482 00:23:41,396 --> 00:23:43,636 Speaker 2: these different chemicals are all made in China and they 483 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:46,556 Speaker 2: spend eight weeks on the water. And then I would 484 00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 2: say sustainability tends to be the third. But we're never 485 00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:54,596 Speaker 2: essentially selling chemicals at a premium. We're trying to match 486 00:23:54,756 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 2: or be better than price and performance. 487 00:23:56,996 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 1: And can you can do as good or better on 488 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 1: price because you're disintermediating essentially, because for other sellers it's 489 00:24:06,156 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: sort of going through multiple middlemen who are all taking 490 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:11,116 Speaker 1: a cut, and you can make the final product. You 491 00:24:11,156 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: can go from input to final product exactly. 492 00:24:13,996 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 2: So like if we think about like a municipality can't 493 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:18,516 Speaker 2: take that supply chain risk. They can't wait eight weeks 494 00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 2: on the water for chemicals to come, so it has 495 00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:23,516 Speaker 2: to go through distribution. And so a lot of the 496 00:24:23,596 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 2: chemicals that we compete against today that are imported from China, 497 00:24:27,396 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 2: they like we estimate they change hands on average about 498 00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:32,076 Speaker 2: five times before they reach that end US customer. 499 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:37,196 Speaker 1: Okay, And as Bezo said, their margin is your opportunity. Sure, 500 00:24:38,116 --> 00:24:41,516 Speaker 1: so let's talk about this sort of medium term right, 501 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: So you're now, well, what's what more or less your 502 00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: revenue now? 503 00:24:45,996 --> 00:24:49,276 Speaker 2: So magnitude so we're we're on the order of one 504 00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:50,356 Speaker 2: hundred million a year. 505 00:24:50,516 --> 00:24:56,076 Speaker 1: Okay, So, like definitely a real business. But the scale 506 00:24:56,316 --> 00:25:01,796 Speaker 1: of the petrochemical industry is giant, what hundreds of billions 507 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 1: a year, maybe trillions a year. 508 00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:05,516 Speaker 2: Globally or globally it's in the trillions. 509 00:25:05,596 --> 00:25:11,396 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I mean, is your dream that you will 510 00:25:11,436 --> 00:25:15,276 Speaker 1: be the like Dow chemical of the new century, Like, 511 00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:16,956 Speaker 1: is that is that the big dream? 512 00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I would say, the big dream is 513 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 2: decarbonization of chemicals, right, and sort of I don't think 514 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:26,396 Speaker 2: these that chemical plant should be this sort of like 515 00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:29,236 Speaker 2: pariah where you don't want them around you or in 516 00:25:29,276 --> 00:25:34,436 Speaker 2: your community. Like manufacturing is essential to supporting all of us, 517 00:25:34,476 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 2: and so like what I see is sort of like 518 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:40,556 Speaker 2: this network of sustainable manufacturing plants that you know, people 519 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:41,996 Speaker 2: view as safe, maybe them as a good part of 520 00:25:41,996 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 2: the community. They create clean, green jobs, They're making chemicals 521 00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:49,156 Speaker 2: that support our families. Uh, and you know, they're not 522 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,476 Speaker 2: harming the planet. And I think the technology exists to 523 00:25:52,516 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 2: do that today, and every year it's getting better and better. 524 00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:58,476 Speaker 2: And so you know, what I view as the role 525 00:25:58,516 --> 00:26:01,236 Speaker 2: of solugen is like how do we get those technologies 526 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:04,436 Speaker 2: to scale as fast as possible and get those products, 527 00:26:04,876 --> 00:26:08,196 Speaker 2: you know, seeding the chemicals transition as quickly as possible. 528 00:26:09,196 --> 00:26:11,356 Speaker 1: Anybody else doing what you're doing, Like it seems to 529 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:13,676 Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. I'm sold that it makes sense. 530 00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:15,996 Speaker 1: Are there people trying to do what you're trying to do? 531 00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:19,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so so, Like I think sustainable chemistry, 532 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,236 Speaker 2: green chemistry in general, there's all sorts of people that 533 00:26:22,276 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 2: are in this space. Like I know you talked to 534 00:26:24,676 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 2: C sixteen rights as an example, and so that's a 535 00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: fermentation approach to make oils, and. 536 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:34,836 Speaker 1: So yes, I mean that's a very niche. It seems 537 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 1: like a different niche, but yeah, it's an interesting comparison. 538 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, well it's just there's a lot of people 539 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:42,396 Speaker 2: in the space. I would say Solugen From a technology standpoint, 540 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 2: I think at this point we're broadly what I would 541 00:26:45,116 --> 00:26:48,676 Speaker 2: consider like an N of one company. We've captured a 542 00:26:48,676 --> 00:26:51,716 Speaker 2: lot of the IP patent white space, We've gotten the 543 00:26:51,756 --> 00:26:55,116 Speaker 2: scale very quickly, and you know our roadmap in front 544 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:57,676 Speaker 2: of us right now, I'm coining idea to tacker truck. 545 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:00,236 Speaker 2: So I want to I want to take an idea 546 00:27:00,236 --> 00:27:01,556 Speaker 2: from a lab and I want to get it to 547 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:04,236 Speaker 2: a tacker truck scale in like eighteen months. 548 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:06,076 Speaker 1: And how long does it take you now? 549 00:27:06,596 --> 00:27:08,916 Speaker 2: So for our first idea attacker truck, I guess was 550 00:27:09,476 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen to twenty twenty one. 551 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: That's hydrogen peroxide. That was like home deep ot to tanker. 552 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 2: Truck exactly right. And then I now, with all the 553 00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 2: capabilities we built in Houston, I think we can do 554 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 2: it in eighteen months. If you look at sort of 555 00:27:27,036 --> 00:27:30,796 Speaker 2: historical chemicals industry idea, A tanker truck is like a 556 00:27:30,836 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 2: ten year process. So now we've got this whole white 557 00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:37,796 Speaker 2: space that uses enzymes and metal catalysts to convert corn 558 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:38,476 Speaker 2: to chemicals. 559 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:42,316 Speaker 1: So it's the idea, not only can you make, you know, 560 00:27:42,716 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 1: make from corn what people have been making from fossil fuels, 561 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,436 Speaker 1: but also maybe there's a whole new universe of things 562 00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:49,156 Speaker 1: that you can make. 563 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:51,836 Speaker 2: There's a whole new universal molecules that we can make. 564 00:27:51,876 --> 00:27:54,876 Speaker 2: So like, like one I'll throw out there is like, 565 00:27:54,916 --> 00:27:57,596 Speaker 2: so when we make lucaric acid, we go through this 566 00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:02,596 Speaker 2: metastable intermediate and it's a weird molecule. It's called gluco dialdos, 567 00:28:03,436 --> 00:28:06,316 Speaker 2: very strange molecule. You can't even buy this on the 568 00:28:06,316 --> 00:28:08,876 Speaker 2: internet and like gram quantities so weird. 569 00:28:08,996 --> 00:28:10,636 Speaker 1: You cannot buy it on the internet. 570 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:12,916 Speaker 2: Cannot buy it on the internet, right, And that's I mean, 571 00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 2: if you can't buy it on the internet, it must 572 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:18,196 Speaker 2: be it does it even exist? Right? We we happen 573 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:20,956 Speaker 2: to accidentally make thousands of tons per year of this 574 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,476 Speaker 2: and it's like we're processing it forward to glucoric acid 575 00:28:24,516 --> 00:28:26,836 Speaker 2: because we have all these customers for glucoric acid but 576 00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:29,676 Speaker 2: like each molecule that we make goes through this really 577 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:32,996 Speaker 2: unique intermediate. There's a whole world of opportunity there in 578 00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:35,116 Speaker 2: terms of all these different sort of under do. 579 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:38,556 Speaker 1: You think it might be good for? Like take a guess. 580 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:42,676 Speaker 2: Okay, so here's a fascinating one. It is so figure 581 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:45,356 Speaker 2: glucose is sugar, right, that's what you're making. I mean 582 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 2: we all live off a glucose, right. Glucodados is glucose 583 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:52,276 Speaker 2: with two audehydes and it's actually biasidal, so it actually 584 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 2: kills bacteria. And so like one of the molecules that 585 00:28:57,116 --> 00:28:58,436 Speaker 2: is sort of a big market in some of the 586 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:01,596 Speaker 2: space we service called glutter aldehyde. It's it's got two 587 00:29:01,636 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 2: autehydes and it's made from oil. Could you use glucodiados 588 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:08,116 Speaker 2: to replace gluter aldehyde? And now you have like a 589 00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 2: sugar that is some how toxic and can kill bugs 590 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,076 Speaker 2: and like clean and disinfect Like that's crazy, And so 591 00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:17,076 Speaker 2: you know this is like if this to me is 592 00:29:17,116 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 2: like a really key one on the chemical transition. Right. 593 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 2: So it's just like the energy transition, the chemical transitions, 594 00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:24,796 Speaker 2: like how do we get sustainable chemicals into all the 595 00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:28,756 Speaker 2: products around us? All the things that we use every 596 00:29:28,836 --> 00:29:31,996 Speaker 2: day right right now, they're all made from oil, coal, 597 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 2: natural gas. How do we steadily introduce biomanufactured and recycled 598 00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:40,716 Speaker 2: circular materials versions of those into them over time. 599 00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:43,196 Speaker 1: So that we don't have to make them from fossil 600 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:43,916 Speaker 1: fuels anymore? 601 00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 2: Exactly? And you know, if I give you a concrete 602 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:52,036 Speaker 2: example is actually the Biden Bioeconomy Executive Order. This was 603 00:29:52,076 --> 00:29:54,596 Speaker 2: from about two years ago. This one. It calls for 604 00:29:54,676 --> 00:29:57,956 Speaker 2: thirty percent of all US chemicals to be biomanufactured in 605 00:29:57,956 --> 00:30:00,436 Speaker 2: the next twenty years. So like that essentially sets a 606 00:30:00,476 --> 00:30:03,356 Speaker 2: target for the chemicals transition. It says, hey, in twenty years, 607 00:30:03,556 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 2: thirty percent of the products should have like thirty percent 608 00:30:06,316 --> 00:30:10,716 Speaker 2: of them biomanufactured over that time frame. That's you we're trying. 609 00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:16,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 610 00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:32,676 Speaker 1: Let's do the lightning round. I understand earlier in your 611 00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:36,916 Speaker 1: career you were a cocoa puff engineer at General Mills. 612 00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:39,116 Speaker 2: That's true, yes, yes. 613 00:30:39,076 --> 00:30:42,076 Speaker 1: What was the hardest cocoa puff problem you worked on? 614 00:30:43,476 --> 00:30:49,156 Speaker 2: So? So coco puffs. What I love about it is 615 00:30:49,156 --> 00:30:52,156 Speaker 2: it's a late stage capitalism, and so they've been around 616 00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:55,596 Speaker 2: since nineteen fifties, and so what we were focused on 617 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:58,996 Speaker 2: was how do you make the cocoa puff glossy and 618 00:30:59,036 --> 00:31:03,916 Speaker 2: frosty for different markets? So different geographies have a different 619 00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:06,916 Speaker 2: visual appeal for like should it be frostier, should it 620 00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 2: be glossier? 621 00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:10,076 Speaker 1: Meaning in different places people have different. 622 00:31:09,836 --> 00:31:12,836 Speaker 2: Preferences, They have different preferences, and so so the the 623 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 2: US is shiny and not particularly frosty, okay, but then 624 00:31:19,196 --> 00:31:23,396 Speaker 2: Southeast Asia is actually more frosty than Matt huh yeah. 625 00:31:23,436 --> 00:31:26,396 Speaker 1: And you have to sort of change the chemistry to 626 00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: deliver it to. 627 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:31,796 Speaker 2: Because you're you're crystallizing sugar on top of kick cereal. 628 00:31:31,836 --> 00:31:34,236 Speaker 2: That's what cocoa puffs is, and so you have to 629 00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:37,956 Speaker 2: tune the crystallization process to make it shiny or frostier. 630 00:31:38,036 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 2: Mat And so I actually like coated cocoa puffs and 631 00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:43,636 Speaker 2: gold and put them in scanning electron microscopes. 632 00:31:43,676 --> 00:31:45,516 Speaker 1: Coated them with literal gold. 633 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,156 Speaker 2: With literal gold, and I have I have a whole 634 00:31:47,156 --> 00:31:50,356 Speaker 2: lots of gold. Why not is the question? 635 00:31:51,956 --> 00:31:54,676 Speaker 1: Will you still have gold cocoa puffs? 636 00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 2: Oh? 637 00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:56,916 Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's amazing. 638 00:31:57,036 --> 00:31:57,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're pretty cool. 639 00:31:58,076 --> 00:32:00,636 Speaker 1: Hard to imagine you will ever do anything that meaningful again. 640 00:32:00,716 --> 00:32:03,116 Speaker 2: But good luck it was. It was my most delicious 641 00:32:03,156 --> 00:32:03,956 Speaker 2: time in my career. 642 00:32:04,876 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 1: Did you eat a gold cocoa puff? 643 00:32:06,596 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, they're totally harmless, so yeah, right, you can 644 00:32:08,956 --> 00:32:09,956 Speaker 2: eat gold, any gold? 645 00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:14,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, why not? I suppose as an engineer, what cereal 646 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: do you admire the most other than cocoa puffs? 647 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:22,596 Speaker 2: So as a food product, I admire gushers the most. 648 00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:25,196 Speaker 1: Gusher So they're like kind of a gooey candy and 649 00:32:25,236 --> 00:32:27,076 Speaker 1: you bite into it in some liquid. 650 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:30,076 Speaker 2: Shot some liquid shots out. It's an exceptionally innovative, complex 651 00:32:30,116 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 2: manufacturing process that was like specially built to make gushers. 652 00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:37,036 Speaker 2: We're getting all the rain. 653 00:32:39,476 --> 00:32:41,636 Speaker 1: Oh does that sound rain on the roof of the trailer. 654 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:43,636 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's really coming down now. 655 00:32:44,036 --> 00:32:47,636 Speaker 1: Okay, home depot or lows. 656 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:53,356 Speaker 2: So so home depot for wood, lows for plumbing parts. 657 00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:57,596 Speaker 1: Huh. That is a that is a robust answer. That's 658 00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:00,716 Speaker 1: a varsity answer. Just better prices, better selection. 659 00:33:01,316 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 2: I think it's about selection for for both of them, 660 00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:05,276 Speaker 2: because like if you're going to home deep or Lows, 661 00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:07,196 Speaker 2: you're in a jam. Like that means I messed up 662 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:09,436 Speaker 2: on my parts ordering list and something didn't come in 663 00:33:09,636 --> 00:33:11,596 Speaker 2: I see, and so I'm like quickly running out there. 664 00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:13,436 Speaker 1: So you actually go to home depot or loads to 665 00:33:13,516 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 1: like build your one hundred million dollars a year factory. 666 00:33:16,756 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so you're going for real, I am just 667 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: screwing around at home depot. You have high stakes when 668 00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:23,556 Speaker 1: you go to home depot or low. 669 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:25,996 Speaker 2: Well, so typical. If I need apart from home depoer loads, 670 00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:27,796 Speaker 2: it's because like I really messed up the design of 671 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:30,156 Speaker 2: some aspect, and it's like we're really going to do 672 00:33:30,196 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 2: like a patchwork job to just try to get it going. 673 00:33:32,716 --> 00:33:35,396 Speaker 1: Yes, what's the most underrated chemical? 674 00:33:37,156 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think the public appreciates any of 675 00:33:39,756 --> 00:33:42,156 Speaker 2: the chemicals that they use every day or really like 676 00:33:42,516 --> 00:33:44,516 Speaker 2: how important they are and all the work and effort 677 00:33:44,516 --> 00:33:46,796 Speaker 2: that goes into making them. Like what's astounding to me 678 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:48,076 Speaker 2: is if I look at a bottle of water on 679 00:33:48,116 --> 00:33:51,996 Speaker 2: a store shelves, it blows my mind because the effort 680 00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:55,836 Speaker 2: in making that plastic and the science is so complex 681 00:33:55,836 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 2: and the costs are so astronomical, and yet you're buying 682 00:33:58,596 --> 00:33:59,236 Speaker 2: it for the water. 683 00:34:00,596 --> 00:34:03,916 Speaker 1: You're just saying, the bottle alone is an engineering miracle. 684 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:07,036 Speaker 2: The bottle loans an engineering miracle because it's an incredible 685 00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:11,636 Speaker 2: material and it's so crystal and everything like like that 686 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:16,276 Speaker 2: plastic has a higher specification than pharmaceuticals in terms of purity, 687 00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:19,436 Speaker 2: and yet we're just being like it's for water and 688 00:34:19,476 --> 00:34:20,196 Speaker 2: the bottles free. 689 00:34:20,476 --> 00:34:22,356 Speaker 1: It's garbage. It's basically garbage. 690 00:34:22,396 --> 00:34:25,436 Speaker 2: It's mind blowing to be still, do you. 691 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:27,956 Speaker 1: Have a white whale? Is there one chemical you really 692 00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:30,836 Speaker 1: want to be able to sell that you haven't figured 693 00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:31,236 Speaker 1: out yet? 694 00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:39,556 Speaker 2: So I think it's two, So nylon And like my dream, 695 00:34:39,556 --> 00:34:43,716 Speaker 2: there is actually cardboard as the feedstock. So cardboard recycled 696 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:48,076 Speaker 2: cardboard is actually like just sugar polymers. It's the same 697 00:34:48,076 --> 00:34:50,876 Speaker 2: thing as starts from corn. So it's actually a really 698 00:34:50,916 --> 00:34:52,316 Speaker 2: great feedstock for us, just. 699 00:34:52,276 --> 00:34:54,156 Speaker 1: Like a cardboard box that I break down. 700 00:34:54,516 --> 00:34:57,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, because cardboard it gets recycled like twelve times from 701 00:34:57,476 --> 00:35:00,276 Speaker 2: cradle to cradle, but the fibers get smaller and smaller 702 00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:03,036 Speaker 2: and it eventually gets land filled or burned. Those really 703 00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:06,796 Speaker 2: small fibers would be incredible feedstocks for our plant. And 704 00:35:06,836 --> 00:35:09,276 Speaker 2: then we have a process technology for making nylon, and 705 00:35:09,316 --> 00:35:11,076 Speaker 2: so to me, it's like it would just be like 706 00:35:11,116 --> 00:35:13,156 Speaker 2: to me, that's like a total end state of like 707 00:35:13,436 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 2: just victory. If we're doing cardboard to nylon. 708 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:19,156 Speaker 1: I feel like you should call Patagonia. I feel like 709 00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:20,516 Speaker 1: they'll pay a premium for that. 710 00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 2: I know. Do you know the challenge that with all 711 00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:25,156 Speaker 2: these clothing retailers is like that's where the sustainability impact is, 712 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 2: but they buy just like a fractional percent of the 713 00:35:27,876 --> 00:35:28,836 Speaker 2: volume in the market. 714 00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:30,836 Speaker 1: So you need to figure out how to do it 715 00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:32,956 Speaker 1: for real and not rely on the green premium and 716 00:35:33,116 --> 00:35:36,436 Speaker 1: actually use garbage cardboard to make good nylon that you 717 00:35:36,476 --> 00:35:38,396 Speaker 1: can sell at a commodity. 718 00:35:37,836 --> 00:35:41,276 Speaker 2: Price and then figure like most nylon manufacturers in China, 719 00:35:41,316 --> 00:35:44,676 Speaker 2: it's depreciated assets. Now you're gonna build this whole brand new, 720 00:35:44,676 --> 00:35:46,396 Speaker 2: shiny thing to go do it, so you have you 721 00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:48,196 Speaker 2: have all of those types of issues and everything. 722 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:49,636 Speaker 1: Hence the white whale. 723 00:35:49,636 --> 00:35:51,076 Speaker 2: He's the white whale. But I think I think we 724 00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:53,316 Speaker 2: can eventually get there. Like to me, that's like I've 725 00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:55,356 Speaker 2: got forty years of work ahead of me, right, I 726 00:35:55,916 --> 00:35:58,076 Speaker 2: think we can do that one coming out here. 727 00:35:58,196 --> 00:36:03,236 Speaker 1: I like the long view. So your co founder says, 728 00:36:03,916 --> 00:36:05,876 Speaker 1: and this is a quote, if I if I've got 729 00:36:05,876 --> 00:36:07,676 Speaker 1: it right, you're terrible at poker. 730 00:36:08,156 --> 00:36:12,556 Speaker 2: Yeah true, yeah, yeah, no, I'm I'm really there to 731 00:36:12,676 --> 00:36:15,876 Speaker 2: crack jokes, to have a good time, to drink some beer, 732 00:36:16,356 --> 00:36:19,276 Speaker 2: and to lose a predetermined amount of money. 733 00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:21,756 Speaker 1: Oh you're great for everybody else, So everybody loves to 734 00:36:21,756 --> 00:36:23,156 Speaker 1: see you walk up to the table. 735 00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:27,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I'm always invited. I have a fun 736 00:36:27,516 --> 00:36:29,796 Speaker 2: one for you. You know. I'm a semi professional juggler. 737 00:36:31,636 --> 00:36:34,556 Speaker 1: Like, what's the frontier of your Wait, what a semi 738 00:36:34,636 --> 00:36:37,756 Speaker 1: professional mean? In the context of juggling, you get paid sometimes. 739 00:36:37,876 --> 00:36:43,756 Speaker 2: I have been paid on occasion to juggle. At one point, 740 00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:49,356 Speaker 2: I competed in a national combat juggling tournament. Combat combat juggling. 741 00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:53,276 Speaker 1: Boxing crossed with juggling. You're juggling weapons. 742 00:36:53,356 --> 00:36:56,276 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty people standing in a circle. They fight until 743 00:36:56,356 --> 00:36:59,596 Speaker 2: the last person's juggling. Seriously, it's amazing. You can watch 744 00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:01,716 Speaker 2: it on YouTube and please petition for it to be 745 00:37:01,716 --> 00:37:02,396 Speaker 2: in the Olympics. 746 00:37:02,436 --> 00:37:04,916 Speaker 1: It's like a juggling battle royale, and you're just trying 747 00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:07,836 Speaker 1: to make the other dude mess up without messing up yourself. 748 00:37:07,996 --> 00:37:09,836 Speaker 2: I have a whole strategies, like I run to the 749 00:37:09,876 --> 00:37:11,516 Speaker 2: edge of the arena and I let all this collateral 750 00:37:11,596 --> 00:37:14,356 Speaker 2: damage happen. Then there's a whole bunch of spare balls 751 00:37:14,356 --> 00:37:15,836 Speaker 2: that are on the field. You only have to be 752 00:37:15,916 --> 00:37:17,796 Speaker 2: juggling three balls, So I pick them up and I 753 00:37:17,836 --> 00:37:19,956 Speaker 2: go into like four and five ball juggling, and then 754 00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:21,356 Speaker 2: I stay at the edge of the arena and I 755 00:37:21,396 --> 00:37:23,036 Speaker 2: snipe people with my extra balls. 756 00:37:23,516 --> 00:37:28,916 Speaker 1: Wow. Is that a metaphor for running your company? 757 00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:32,116 Speaker 2: Maybe? Maybe a kind of fluctuakes always feel like every 758 00:37:32,156 --> 00:37:34,396 Speaker 2: day I'm getting punched in the face with by capitalism. 759 00:37:34,836 --> 00:37:38,316 Speaker 2: But there's just just but there's just all these incredible tailwinds. 760 00:37:39,076 --> 00:37:41,436 Speaker 1: And when you say you feel like you're getting punched 761 00:37:41,476 --> 00:37:43,836 Speaker 1: in the face every day by capitalism, what do you mean? 762 00:37:44,396 --> 00:37:46,596 Speaker 2: Well, I think I think the world exists to try 763 00:37:46,636 --> 00:37:50,436 Speaker 2: to kill startups kind of from from every every direction, right, 764 00:37:50,556 --> 00:37:52,836 Speaker 2: because you're trying to do something different. And I would 765 00:37:52,836 --> 00:37:55,196 Speaker 2: say especially selling, like in B to B, there's a 766 00:37:55,276 --> 00:37:58,036 Speaker 2: natural inclination to just do what you've always been doing 767 00:37:58,236 --> 00:38:01,196 Speaker 2: right and try trying to overcome that is difficult. 768 00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:04,276 Speaker 1: A natural inclination on the part of the buyers, like 769 00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:08,196 Speaker 1: it's some somebody at like some municipal water plant, Like 770 00:38:08,236 --> 00:38:09,956 Speaker 1: they don't want to hear from you. They're not going 771 00:38:09,996 --> 00:38:12,476 Speaker 1: to get in trouble buying the same chemical that they've 772 00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:14,076 Speaker 1: been buying at that plant for thirty. 773 00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:16,076 Speaker 2: Years exactly, and so like, and I feel like everyone 774 00:38:16,116 --> 00:38:18,356 Speaker 2: we talked to, they're all they can all say the 775 00:38:18,356 --> 00:38:20,116 Speaker 2: same thing on like they're concern about the climate, they're 776 00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:22,756 Speaker 2: concerned about these different things. But then I think people 777 00:38:23,116 --> 00:38:26,556 Speaker 2: underestimate their own ability to effectuate that change, even just 778 00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:28,156 Speaker 2: someone there being like, hey, I'm gonna switch to a 779 00:38:28,156 --> 00:38:30,556 Speaker 2: different vendor, I'm gonna try this out like that that 780 00:38:31,116 --> 00:38:32,836 Speaker 2: there is like if you did that for all these 781 00:38:32,876 --> 00:38:36,196 Speaker 2: different startups that are working in sustainable chemicals. The part 782 00:38:36,196 --> 00:38:38,596 Speaker 2: I get pessimistic about is rate of adoption. It's really 783 00:38:38,676 --> 00:38:41,836 Speaker 2: just just that like the technology piece, like I we're 784 00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:44,076 Speaker 2: going to get there. Humans are super ingenius. I think 785 00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:45,796 Speaker 2: a lot of the technologies are actually already here. They're 786 00:38:45,796 --> 00:38:47,916 Speaker 2: a bit nascent, they need to be deployed. But it's 787 00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:50,156 Speaker 2: that it's that rate that's that's the part to me, 788 00:38:50,156 --> 00:38:53,756 Speaker 2: and I think is the most important. The urgency, the 789 00:38:53,836 --> 00:38:54,796 Speaker 2: urgency exactly. 790 00:39:00,436 --> 00:39:03,756 Speaker 1: Sean Hutt is the co founder and CTO of solu Gin. 791 00:39:04,956 --> 00:39:08,236 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Cheng. It was 792 00:39:08,476 --> 00:39:12,476 Speaker 1: edited by Egene Cott and engineered by Sarah Bruguier. You 793 00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:16,316 Speaker 1: can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. I'm 794 00:39:16,356 --> 00:39:18,836 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein, and we'll be back next week with another 795 00:39:18,876 --> 00:39:33,516 Speaker 1: episode of What's Your Problem.