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Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine.

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Speaker 2: Oh hello Chelsea.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 4: I'm just trying myself in my work ut. It's so

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Speaker 4: hot here, so hot. I'm just trying to figure out

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Speaker 4: where I'm going to go next because I might have

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Speaker 4: to leave before my next guests get here.

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Speaker 2: It's too hot. Oh no, Well, were your first guests

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Speaker 2: fun at least?

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, everyone's been fun.

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Speaker 2: We've had a lot of good laughs.

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Speaker 4: We've had a lot of good You know, everything's legal

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Speaker 4: in Spain, mushrooms, LSD, even cocaine is legal in Spain.

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Speaker 4: Cocaine's legal in Canada. Now I've just found out. I'm

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Speaker 4: like cocaine. Every time you think cocaine is out of style,

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Speaker 4: it makes some sort of comeback.

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Speaker 6: I mean I was like, wait, this is like a

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Speaker 6: thing again now, and I feel like it's happening all

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Speaker 6: over again, although now I'm too afraid to try it

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Speaker 6: because of all the additives.

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Speaker 4: Well in America that's a thing, fence and all. In

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Speaker 4: London and everyone was doing blow, I was like what.

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Speaker 4: I was like, people are still doing cocaine here. I

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Speaker 4: mean not everybody, but a good portion of people. I

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Speaker 4: was like, wait, what about fentanyl. They're like we don't

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Speaker 4: have that problem here. I'm like, oh, really, we don't

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Speaker 4: have fentanyl here. Only America has up problem because we

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Speaker 4: have people like Gronda Santis and Trump to deal with,

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Speaker 4: so we need the fentanel.

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Speaker 6: I was going to ask, you've spent a lot of

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Speaker 6: family time this summer. Do you get sick of being

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Speaker 6: around family after a certain amount of time?

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Speaker 4: I think of everybody, I mean, I just like to

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's better, you know, like post therapy now,

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Speaker 4: I know, I'm just better at modulating my moods and

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Speaker 4: not freaking out or losing my shit. Like I don't

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Speaker 4: really do that anymore, luckily. I mean, I don't want

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Speaker 4: to write it off completely because we watch it will

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Speaker 4: happen tonight. But I'm pretty good about that. And when

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Speaker 4: I want to be alone, I'm just pretty obvious about it.

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Speaker 4: I just remove myself from a situation. And I just

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Speaker 4: read that book Lessons in Chemistry. That was I keep

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Speaker 4: trying to stop reading books so I could just focus

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Speaker 4: on writing my book. But then I'm like, fuck, I

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Speaker 4: love reading so much, and I feel like every time

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Speaker 4: you read something, you gain something for writing. So but

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Speaker 4: when I don't have time, like if I'm over people.

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Speaker 4: I just go and read my book somewhere. The thing

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Speaker 4: that annoys me the most is when you are reading

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Speaker 4: a book and someone starts talking to you. It's like,

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Speaker 4: what do you think I'm doing? What does this fucking

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Speaker 4: look like?

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Speaker 6: I'm reading, I'm busy. I'm looking at something else. That

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Speaker 6: happens to be quite often. And I won't say who

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Speaker 6: it is, but it's definitely the person who lives with me. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: it's like, hey, do you want to have a conversation

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Speaker 6: right now?

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Speaker 4: We got that, We got that very loud and clear.

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Speaker 4: I went and got this MRI called like praneuva or something,

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Speaker 4: which is like a body MRI to like detect any early,

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Speaker 4: like tumors or anything you're It's supposed to be like

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Speaker 4: a pre deetection. But once you do it, you open

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Speaker 4: yourself up to everything because everyone has nodules or gross

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Speaker 4: or like little things. So but my doctor was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I see something in like your L five L six.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what's that?

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Speaker 4: He's like your neck and I'm like really, He goes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: something's off in your neck. I have to order you

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Speaker 4: a spinal MRI and see how bad it is. If

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Speaker 4: it's something that we need to look at or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And as soon as he said that, my neck hasn't

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Speaker 4: stopped killing me.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, how is that though? Oh it's psychosomatic.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I'm like, oh fuck, now my neck

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Speaker 4: is killing me.

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Speaker 6: No, okay, So I have to tell you. I I've

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Speaker 6: never talked about this with you before, I don't think.

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Speaker 6: But my therapist I go to is a sematic pain therapist.

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Speaker 6: And I found her about a year ago or a

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Speaker 6: year and a half ago. Now, maybe because I was

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Speaker 6: having terrible pain in my feet. I had been having

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Speaker 6: like really bad plantar fasci iis for like six years,

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Speaker 6: and I had had these painful episodes where I just

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Speaker 6: had this like terrible pelvic pain and they would come

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Speaker 6: and go, and I didn't know what was setting them off.

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Speaker 6: And so I started seeing this sematic pain therapist after

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Speaker 6: several symptoms told me like, maybe this isn't a physical pain,

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Speaker 6: maybe this is something else. Like I would move around

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Speaker 6: my body some days my left knee would hurt, some

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Speaker 6: days my right knee would hurt. Which if it's structural,

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Speaker 6: that's not gonna happen, right, So I can't tell you

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Speaker 6: the difference that this therapy has made in my life.

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Speaker 6: I no longer have any foot pain. Instead of feeling

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Speaker 6: pain when I wake up in the morning, when I

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Speaker 6: set my feet on the ground, I feel like, oh,

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Speaker 6: I might need to stretch a little bit. It has

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Speaker 6: helped me totally reframe all of my pain. My pain

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Speaker 6: events when they do happen, they're very, very mild, and

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Speaker 6: I can sort of like breathe through them and meditate

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Speaker 6: through them, which is something that like surgery to not fix.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, it's a lot about people pleasing, a lot

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Speaker 6: about stress and this therapy, which really I kept thinking, like,

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Speaker 6: what's it going to be, like, are they going to

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Speaker 6: give me special meditations that are going to fix all

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Speaker 6: these things because it's specifically about pain, But it's just

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Speaker 6: really normal therapy where they kind of help you figure

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Speaker 6: out all your pain stuff and how to fix your

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Speaker 6: stress stuff so that the pain goes away or is

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Speaker 6: much reduced or you have a different relationship to it.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that's something I haven't talked about on.

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Speaker 1: This before, saying interesting somatic therapist.

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Speaker 2: Thematic is body uh huh.

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Speaker 6: And the thing about sematic pain, like we used to

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Speaker 6: call it psychosomatic pain, it is real pain. It's like

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Speaker 6: you're really feeling this pain, but it's sort of your

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Speaker 6: brain misinterpreting signals from your body that it thinks are pain,

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Speaker 6: but really they're really just sort of like warning signals

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Speaker 6: of like maybe you're too tired, maybe you're this I

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Speaker 6: had a couple friends who had really bad back pain,

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Speaker 6: and they had sort of done similar therapies, and they

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Speaker 6: like don't have back pain anymore. Like my one girlfriend says,

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Speaker 6: you know, when I start to have like a twinge

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Speaker 6: in my back and I feel like a throw my

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Speaker 6: back out coming on, I know that I need to

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Speaker 6: like sit and rest and journal, you know, in journal

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Speaker 6: and like get her stress and stuff out. So I

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Speaker 6: went to the La Pain Psychology Center and they helped

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Speaker 6: me tremendously.

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Speaker 1: I can't general no, I just I can't handwrite stuff.

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Speaker 1: My answer always.

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Speaker 4: If I write a card, a birthday card, my hand

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Speaker 4: hurts for an hour after.

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Speaker 7: Oh.

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Speaker 6: I would argue that you write many journals, they just

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Speaker 6: get published as books.

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Speaker 1: Well, I type those. I can type. I have no

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Speaker 1: problem typing, but I can't i'm writing.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, that's why I'm scared to put out

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Speaker 4: another book, because I don't want to do that I do.

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Speaker 1: Know why I can't sign those books again.

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Speaker 4: So many books you have to sign when you have

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Speaker 4: a book cover, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like your

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Speaker 4: hand on you get carpal tunnel totally.

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Speaker 1: I mean I when I go on.

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Speaker 4: Book tours and like do book signings you have, I

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Speaker 4: literally go in after and.

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Speaker 2: Put my hand in an ice c my gosh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to learn how to sign with.

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Speaker 2: My toes or something, or like a stamp.

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Speaker 1: Or Bernice needs to fucking chip in.

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Speaker 2: She's so lazy.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Bernie is my lover. Okay.

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Speaker 4: Our next guest is a very well known Canadian physician

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Speaker 4: and author. He has written the books When the Body

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Speaker 4: Says No, Scattered Minds, and In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts.

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Speaker 4: He's also written a book called Hold Onto Your Kids,

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Speaker 4: and his most recent book, which has been on the

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Speaker 4: New York Times bestseller list for nineteen weeks, is called

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Speaker 4: The Myth of Normal.

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Speaker 1: Please welcome gadbor mate.

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Speaker 4: Hello, oh, hello doctor, good morning, well, good afternoonsh nice

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Speaker 4: to meet you.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea.

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Speaker 3: Is a gobor and I wish you'd row up the

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Speaker 3: doctor's stuff.

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Speaker 4: Okay, I'm so used to everyone calling me a doctor.

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Speaker 4: So I was just projecting and you know, Catherine, my

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Speaker 4: co host.

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Speaker 3: Hi there, Hi, I can clear a doctor if.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sure, sure whatever. It's very nice to speak

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Speaker 4: with you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 4: very much looking forward to asking you some questions and

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Speaker 4: having you help some of our callers with their life

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Speaker 4: advice and life questions.

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Speaker 3: Well if I can, if I can do it, I'll try. So.

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Speaker 4: Your new book, which has been on the New York

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Speaker 4: Times best seller list, is called The Myth of Normal,

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Speaker 4: and your book before that was also a huge success,

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Speaker 4: and it is called When the Body Says No, which

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Speaker 4: has been brought up on our podcast multiple times.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk to you.

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Speaker 4: A little bit about the relationship between trauma and ADHD

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Speaker 4: and how add and ADHD differentiate with their relationship to trauma.

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Speaker 4: If you could speak to that a little bit, I'm

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Speaker 4: very curious.

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Speaker 3: Sure.

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Speaker 8: Well, that's actually my favoritt book which I wrote when

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Speaker 8: I was in my mid fifties and just diagnosed freshly

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Speaker 8: with attention deficit hyperactive disorder. That book is called Scattered Minds. Now,

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Speaker 8: the characteristics of this condition are the people have trouble

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Speaker 8: staying focused. They tend to tune out, kind of absu

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Speaker 8: mind it a lot. So they tend to lose things,

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Speaker 8: forget things, mix up appointments, this kind of stuff, miss

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Speaker 8: parts of conversations. They tend to pour impulse control. So

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Speaker 8: when they want to do something, even if they know

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Speaker 8: it's not so good for them, they tend to do it.

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Speaker 3: So people they did the slip very easily into addictions.

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Speaker 8: And the hyperactive part is some of them have trouble

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Speaker 8: sitting still there restless. They have to move all the time.

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Speaker 8: You can see their feet tapping on the floor, their

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Speaker 8: thumbs fidgetting on the table. You know, that's the hyperactive part.

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Speaker 8: So now, the usual medical view of it, which I

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Speaker 8: don't agree with, is that this is the genetic brain

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Speaker 8: disorder that passed on for Munde to the next. Now

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Speaker 8: I was diagnosed with it, so repove my kids, and

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Speaker 8: I don't think it's either a disease of the brain,

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Speaker 8: nor do I think it's a genetic So what is

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Speaker 8: it actually? And this is where life experience comes into it.

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Speaker 8: Tuning out is an actual capacity of the human brain.

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Speaker 8: As an example, if I were to stress you right

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Speaker 8: now by being rude and appropriate aggressive, you'd have some

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Speaker 8: healthy options. You could just hang up on me, say

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Speaker 8: heck with you, or you could fight back and tell

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Speaker 8: me God, but you're not the right to talk to

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Speaker 8: me that way. What if you couldn't either escape or

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Speaker 8: fight back, then how would you handle it? I tell

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Speaker 8: you how you handle it. When there's a lot of

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Speaker 8: stress and a person is helpless, the brain tunes out

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Speaker 8: as a defense mechanism. If this happens early in life,

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Speaker 8: if the parents are stressed because the relationship troubles, or

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Speaker 8: because they're on on result trauma, or because of economic

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Speaker 8: stress or racialist stress or whatever stress, the child is

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Speaker 8: very sensitive. The infant is very insitive to the parents'

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Speaker 8: emotional states. When the parent is stressed, the child is stressed.

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Speaker 8: When the infant and the young child is stressed, there's

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Speaker 8: not much they can do about it. They tune out.

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Speaker 8: There's a defense mechanism they don't do deliberately. And when

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Speaker 8: they're doing this when their brain is developing. So how

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Speaker 8: the human brain develops is an interaction with the environment.

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Speaker 8: And if you look at the studies of human brain development,

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Speaker 8: the biggest influence on new chemicals, the secretry the netflix

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Speaker 8: of the brain is the emotional.

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Speaker 3: Relationship with the adults. If that relationship is stressed, not

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Speaker 3: because the parents don't love their kids. It's not because

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Speaker 3: they're not trying to do their best, because they themselves

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Speaker 3: are stressed. The child is stressed, and what happens is

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Speaker 3: that the tuning ug gets wired into the brain and

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Speaker 3: then ten years later or fifty years later in my case,

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Speaker 3: the person is diagnosed with the so called brain disease

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Speaker 3: that they inherited. Now, what happened to me was I

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Speaker 3: was a Jewish infant under the Nazis in Hungary in

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Speaker 3: the Second World or I don't have to go into

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Speaker 3: it here, but you can imagine how stressed it was,

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Speaker 3: how stressed my mother was. How did I deal with

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Speaker 3: that stress? I tune out. And this is where my

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Speaker 3: brain is developing now. My own kids grew up in

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Speaker 3: Canada in a loving home, but with a father who

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Speaker 3: was a workaholic, add driven personality. And when I was

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Speaker 3: at home, I was very often in a bad mood.

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Speaker 3: And since I hate to tell you guys this, but

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Speaker 3: we always marry somebody at the same level of trauma

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Speaker 3: that we're at. It means I met and married a

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Speaker 3: woman who was as traumatized as I was not in

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Speaker 3: the same way, but to the same degree. So now

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Speaker 3: we have two traumatized parents, two young people who remember

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Speaker 3: that traumas acting out on each other in a form

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Speaker 3: of family conflict, and our kids live in a stressed

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Speaker 3: environment so they tune out. So yeah, what was passed

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Speaker 3: on here is not DD. What was passed on was

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Speaker 3: the stress and the trauma, which is multi generous.

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Speaker 6: You've talked quite a bit about those things that we

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Speaker 6: develop as children as coping mechanisms, ADHD being one of them.

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Speaker 6: I know that's my situation as well, But how we

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Speaker 6: take those into adulthood in ways that don't serve us?

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Speaker 6: Can you talk a little bit more about that well.

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Speaker 8: So, first of all, the tuning out, which is a

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Speaker 8: coping mechanism, gets wired into the brain, so it does

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Speaker 8: become a matter of brain physiology. But the deproblem didn't

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Speaker 8: start in the brain. It started with how the environment

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Speaker 8: acted on the brain. It's difficult in adult life to

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Speaker 8: be in relationship with somebody who's about ADHD because the

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Speaker 8: poor tension span, the poor impulse control. Sometimes my wife

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Speaker 8: would say, you're not listening to me, you know, thinking

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Speaker 8: I was not doing it deliberately but actually what would

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Speaker 8: actually happening is that, especially when the emotional environment.

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Speaker 3: Gets a bit heavy, I tend to tune out.

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Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question when you say tune

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Speaker 4: out when you're talking about that, are you talking about

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Speaker 4: disassociation or is that a separate category?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, about this situation simply means disconnecting from the present moment.

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Speaker 1: So same thing, the degrees of it.

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Speaker 8: So I would say that ADHD is a milder form

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Speaker 8: of dissociation, and it's not all the time. When you're

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Speaker 8: very interested in something where you're motivated, oh, you can

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Speaker 8: pay perfect attention. So partly it's also a matter of motivation,

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Speaker 8: emotional safety, comfort, and so on. But the point is,

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Speaker 8: if you came to me as a parent with a

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Speaker 8: kid with ADHD, what would you rather hear, sir or madam.

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Speaker 8: You've got this kid with this genetic brand disease, or

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Speaker 8: you've got a kid who probably grew up in a

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Speaker 8: stressed environment. Not your fault, you did your best. But

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Speaker 8: if you provide the right environment, that kid can develop

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Speaker 8: new brain circuits and can grow in very healthy ways.

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Speaker 8: So the second message puts more responsibly on the parent,

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Speaker 8: not guilt, but responsibility. But at the same time, if

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Speaker 8: you're a parent, which would you rather hear?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's very helpful, you know, for people to

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Speaker 4: be able to know that they can change their behavior

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Speaker 4: if they put it, the work towards it, and the

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Speaker 4: effort needed.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the contribution.

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Speaker 4: Of social media and all of that has on add

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Speaker 4: and ADHD.

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Speaker 8: Well, First of all, let me say something about the

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Speaker 8: contribution of social culture in general, because if you look

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Speaker 8: at what's happening with bad diagnosis, or i should say,

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Speaker 8: any other childhood diagnosis, childhood depression, childhood anxiety, self cutting, bulimia, anorexia,

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Speaker 8: childhood soucides, these numbers are going up and up and

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Speaker 8: up and up and up here in North America. Now,

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Speaker 8: if these are genetic disorders, why would they be going up.

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Speaker 8: Genes don't change in a population over ten or fifteen

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Speaker 8: or twenty or thirty or fifty years. So if the

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Speaker 8: numbers are going up, there's something happening in the culture.

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Speaker 8: And what's happening in the culture is that people are

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Speaker 8: much more isolated and much more stressed than they used

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Speaker 8: to be, and parents are much more isolated and stressed

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Speaker 8: that they used to be. Ghost parents are even together,

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Speaker 8: but there's a high divorce rate, and there is a

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Speaker 8: high rate of depression amongst adults, and that's affecting the children.

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Speaker 8: So what I'm saying is that the reason we're seeing

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Speaker 8: more and more these childhood disorders is not because they're

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Speaker 8: any genetic epidemic, but because the conditions on the region,

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Speaker 8: means developed and thrive are less and less available. And

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Speaker 8: that's really the essential motif of my most recent book,

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Speaker 8: The Myth of Normal.

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Speaker 3: The subtitle is the Myth of.

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Speaker 8: Normal, Trauma, illness and healing and a toxic culture. And

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Speaker 8: I'm basically saying we're living in a toxic culture now.

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Speaker 8: Now social media comes into it. How First of all,

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Speaker 8: one of the essential needs of children is free play,

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Speaker 8: spontaneous play out there in nature. As soon as you

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Speaker 8: introduce screens into the kid's life, that's over with. Because

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Speaker 8: these things, these devices, normally are they highly addictive. They're

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Speaker 8: designed to be addictive. They call it neural marketing. They

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Speaker 8: design and to hook in the brains of young kids.

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Speaker 8: And if you look at the brains of children who

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Speaker 8: are a lot on social media, they don't look normal.

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Speaker 8: Circuits that involve thinking and emotional regulation are attenuated or

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Speaker 8: not well developed as a result of screen news. Number one.

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Speaker 8: Number two, there's the addiction addictive thing. You take a

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Speaker 8: kid on social media. If you're a parent and you

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Speaker 8: get addicted to social media, you try and get them

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Speaker 8: to stop it. I've worked with drug addicts. One of

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Speaker 8: my books is on addiction, and I worked with some

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Speaker 8: of the most severe drug addicts in North America. Actually

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Speaker 8: trying to separate a child who's hooked on their social

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Speaker 8: media from their devices. It's like trying to get a

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Speaker 8: severely opiate dependent individual off their heroin. They hate you,

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Speaker 8: they attack you, they fight back, their hostile they're really upset.

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Speaker 8: Why Because they're addicted, and they're respawning, like any addicted person,

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Speaker 8: to the threatened deprivation of the addictive preference. Thirdly, a

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Speaker 8: lot of parents use social media as a way of

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Speaker 8: babysitting their kids. Now, I don't blame them for it.

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Speaker 8: Painting was never meant to be as difficult and as

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Speaker 8: isolated and as stressed as it is in this culture,

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Speaker 8: but the result is that people are no longer relating

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Speaker 8: to adults in their lives. How we evolved as human

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Speaker 8: beings is we lived in small tribes, but the adults

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Speaker 8: were all around us the whole day. No kids can

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Speaker 8: spend the whole day relating to each other, which means

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Speaker 8: they lose respect for the adults because we tend to

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Speaker 8: get our orientation and our guidance from the people that

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Speaker 8: we're connecting with. When kids have connected with other kids

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Speaker 8: most of the time, they can't care less what the

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Speaker 8: adults think, and they start getting obstreperous and resistant, and

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Speaker 8: the adults thinking, what's wrong with these kids? Nothing's wrong

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Speaker 8: with the kids. What's wrong with the kids is that

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Speaker 8: the healthy relationship with adults has been so weekend in

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Speaker 8: this culture, the kids are influencing each other. I mean,

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Speaker 8: look at all the child influencers out there, immature creatures.

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Speaker 8: I don't mean that as a pejority of I just

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Speaker 8: mean objectively, they're immature and i having matured yet influencing

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Speaker 8: millions of their peers.

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Speaker 3: I mean that's a frightening phenomenon.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but with what you said earlier, I mean, you

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Speaker 4: can retrain that neural circuitry, right, You can create new

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Speaker 4: habits at any time almost, I mean, unless you have

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Speaker 4: some other inhibiting factor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's not a hopeless situation if you address

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Speaker 4: the situation and try to limit.

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Speaker 1: The addictive behavior of children on their devices.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I saw my friend's four year old son

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Speaker 4: throw an iPad at her face when she tried to

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Speaker 4: take it away from him, and I thought, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: that's an addict that's like taking away. Yeah, so it

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Speaker 4: is very disturbing.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 4: I know you discuss in your books, all of your books,

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Speaker 4: the mind body connection. So when you're talking about retraining

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Speaker 4: the neural circuitry, how does.

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Speaker 1: The body fall in step with that?

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Speaker 8: Again, if you look at how you evolved as human creatures,

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Speaker 8: they didn't involve in cities and pavements and isolated apartments.

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Speaker 8: Revolved out there in nature, living with other human beings

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Speaker 8: in small groups and traveling with them and hunting with

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Speaker 8: them and collecting food with them. But there was a

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Speaker 8: real sense of community.

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Speaker 3: And in Canada, as in the United States, indigenous people

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Speaker 3: suffered the most in terms of addictions and suicides and

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Speaker 3: autoimmune diseases and domestic violence.

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Speaker 8: Why because of what was done to them in Canada

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Speaker 8: and in samples the United States, there were this state enforced,

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Speaker 8: church run residential schools with an indigenous child as much

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Speaker 8: as spoke their own tribal language, they pinned stuck to

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Speaker 8: that to discourage them when speak their language. Where they

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Speaker 8: were sexually abused, physically abused, they often died, starved, beaten

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Speaker 8: as a result of all that multigenational trauma. These people

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Speaker 8: have a lot of addictions, a lot of mental health issues,

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Speaker 8: a lot of physical health issues. So I'm often asked

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Speaker 8: to both of these communities and help with their healing process.

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Speaker 8: So that's one reason I go there. They have such wisdom,

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Speaker 8: their traditional wisdom is so much more holistic and connected,

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Speaker 8: and they see themselves not as isolated individuals, but as

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Speaker 8: part of our universe, really very much in their bodies,

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Speaker 8: in their natural states, and in their God feelings connected

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Speaker 8: to their God feelings. No, one of the things that

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Speaker 8: happens in trauma is that people get disconnected from their

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Speaker 8: God feelings. Have you ever met the one day old

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Speaker 8: baby not connected to their God feelings?

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Speaker 3: So something happened, Something happened that is connected to film

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Speaker 3: your body. And what happened was that at some point

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Speaker 3: you learned that to be accepted by your environment, you

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Speaker 3: kind of have to disconnect from yourself. Now that also

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Speaker 3: means that healing also happens to the body, and so

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Speaker 3: that when you're ignoring, you've got feelings, you're knowing your body.

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Speaker 3: That's what you're doing.

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Speaker 8: So when I teach people healing modalities, it is very

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Speaker 8: much to do with reconnecting with the body.

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Speaker 3: Actually being aware of what's in your body, what's in

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Speaker 3: your throat, what's in your belly's what's happening in your chest,

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Speaker 3: are your muscle's feelings? You know, So be reconnecting with

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Speaker 3: the body because of the brain in the mind can't

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Speaker 3: be separated. When you're present with your body, you're present

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Speaker 3: with your brain as well.

438
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 6: And you've said when a no comes up for you,

439
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 6: it's begging to be said, and if you don't say no,

440
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 6: that the body will do it for you in the

441
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 6: form of illness. Can you expand on that a little bit?

442
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,120
Speaker 3: Sure? Well, you guys live on where in LA or where?

443
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 8: Okay, let's say you live in LA and we're friends

444
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 8: and I fly into LA and Catherine, I call you

445
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 8: up and I say, can we go for coffee? But

446
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 8: you don't want to because you has spin up all

447
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 8: night tending a sick friend or a sick dog or

448
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 8: a sick child. I don't know, or maybe you just

449
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 8: don't feel like a period, you know, but you don't

450
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 8: say no. What's going to be the impact on you

451
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 8: if you don't say no, If you're in that state,

452
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 8: you don't say no, you have coffee with me? What's

453
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 8: going to be impact on you?

454
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: I can already feel that feeling in my stomach.

455
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 1: I mean I do that all the time. I do

456
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: things I don't feel like doing all the time.

457
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 3: What is the impact on you?

458
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 4: I mean I don't know specifically, but I definitely it's

459
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 4: so hard because that's life.

460
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 8: You know, so many no notice, that's life as you've

461
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 8: created it. Okay, now, and you don't say no, will

462
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 8: you agree that you're more likely to be tired?

463
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yes, irritable, more.

464
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 8: Likely to be irritable, stressed, monetly, a difficulty sleeping, or

465
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 8: you know, there's going to be some impact. Not only that,

466
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 8: you're going to be more resentful as well. Now all

467
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 8: those states are body states. When you don't know how

468
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 8: to say no, And we can talk about white people

469
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 8: have such trouble saying no. I totally understand what you're saying,

470
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 8: but it tells me a certain history I mean, you

471
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 8: don't know how to say no, and the body sends

472
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 8: you these messages like whatever fiting in your belly or

473
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 8: the fatigue of it, and you don't pay attention, it

474
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 8: might end up saying no in a big way.

475
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 3: And when I study.

476
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 8: Chronic illness like autoimmunities, is rumor too, that's writer, it's

477
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 8: multiple scrosses collidis, these chronic fatigue, pablomy alge, chronic services, examma, asthma,

478
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 8: I could go on. Typical of the people that develop

479
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 8: those conditions is that they don't know how to say no,

480
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 8: so they take on too much stress. Why because they're

481
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 8: afraid of disappointing the other person, and they think it's

482
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 8: their responsibility to make other people happy and never to

483
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 8: let anybody down. And what it's good to be kind,

484
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 8: it's dangerous to be kind only to others and not

485
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 8: to yourself. Now, not blaming anybody. These patterns develop in childhood.

486
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 8: It meant that as a child you were discouraged from

487
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 8: saying no because you were thought to be nice and

488
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 8: pleasant and compliant and appeasing people and pleasing people. Or

489
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 8: maybe your parents were so stressed, maybe they were alcoholics,

490
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 8: or maybe they were fighting, or maybe they were economically

491
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 8: overwhelmed and you kind of took on the responsibility or

492
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 8: making them feel better by meeting their needs and forgetting

493
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 8: your own.

494
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: So this is not how life has to be. It's

495
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 3: to be a lot of.

496
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 8: Children in this society of programmed. Now, if you ask

497
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 8: the question, and I have a chapter on it in

498
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 8: a metal normal, why is it that women have eighty

499
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 8: percent of autommune disease? Why is it of the two

500
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 8: major genders in this culture, which is the one that's

501
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 8: acculturated and programmed into pleasing other people, ignoring their own needs,

502
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 8: repressing their healthy anger, so they always should be nice.

503
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 8: It's women not to disappoint others and think responsible for

504
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 8: other people feelings. It's women, And that's why women have

505
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 8: more auto immun disease because the mind and body being

506
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 8: inseparable scientifically, when your emotions and your psychic apparatus in

507
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 8: your brain. By psychic, I mean the emotional appetist in

508
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 8: your brain is connected to the immune system, to your guts,

509
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,439
Speaker 8: to your heart, to your lungs, to your nervous system.

510
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 8: When things are disturbed in your emotional apparatus, they're going

511
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 8: to be disturbed in your immune apparatus as well. I mean,

512
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 8: you don't know how to say no, which is a

513
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 8: boundary defense. Your immune system gets confused as well. Now

514
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 8: that may sound radical to a lot of people who

515
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 8: are not familiar with what I'm talking about. Certainly most

516
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 8: of my fellow physicians wouldn't know what the heck I

517
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 8: was talking about. That's not their fault, and it's not

518
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 8: because I'm not talking science. I am talking science. It's

519
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 8: just that the science of mind body unity is still

520
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 8: not taught in most medical schools. The doctors learned purely

521
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 8: the physiological fighter things, but not the unity of mind and.

522
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 4: Body right, which is a much more holistic approach to everything.

523
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 4: What do you think the correlation is, Well, I think

524
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 4: I know the answer to this. But between you know,

525
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 4: trauma losing like a family member. My brother died when

526
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 4: we were young, and my sister was diagnosed with lupus

527
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 4: like two and a half years later. My mother was

528
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 4: diagnosed with cancer two and a half years later, exactly

529
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 4: at the same time, and that's when we started to

530
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 4: learn more about what trauma does.

531
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: And how it can cause disease. Can you speak to

532
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: that a little bit.

533
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: First of all, it's striking.

534
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 8: How many families are similar to yours, where a whole

535
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 8: lot of supposedly unrelated diseases show up, But they're not

536
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 8: unrelated if you understand that trauma is at the basis

537
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 8: of them. And that's the point I keep making in

538
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 8: the book The Myth of Normal. But on my computer

539
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 8: I prepared this, I could go show you a photograph

540
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 8: of a young woman who I met four years ago

541
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 8: in Britain. Her face was covered with the red rash,

542
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 8: a butterfly looking rash, and her fingers were white as chalk.

543
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 8: She had lupas and her fingers were white because they've

544
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 8: been deprived of blood supply. The arteries had narrowed. She

545
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 8: came to a lecture I gave in London four years

546
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 8: ago on when the body says no and a connection

547
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 8: between stretch, trauma and autom disease light Lupas's. I could

548
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 8: show the photographs now. Her face is totally normal looking,

549
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 8: her fingers are pink as anything. She's got no disease

550
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 8: and she's on no medication. Why Because she learned how

551
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 8: to say no, She learned start how to start looking

552
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 8: after herself. She learned to stand up for herself, not

553
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 8: to live her life to please other people, but to

554
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 8: get to know her real self that she got disconnected

555
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 8: from long ago in childhood. And she's healthy as anything,

556
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 8: And it's not an unusual story. So what happened in

557
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 8: your family is your sister, I bet it is one

558
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 8: of these personalities that took on the emotional needs of

559
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 8: others and ignored her own. Probably didn't know how to

560
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 8: express anger in any kind of a healthy way, Probably

561
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 8: had no idea how to say no. Probably that goes

562
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 8: back to your childhoods and your childhood we should took

563
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 8: on a certain role in the family. Probably there was

564
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 8: a lot of stress in your family of origin, and

565
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 8: you guys are small, So all these different diseases or

566
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 8: manifestations of trauma and disconnection from the south.

567
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say the two people in my family,

568
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 4: my mother and my sister, had the quietest, the biggest

569
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 4: people pleasers in our family. I certainly haven't been a

570
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 4: people pleaser for a long time, even though I still

571
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 4: continue to do things I don't feel like doing. But yes,

572
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: and how scientifically is that measured? Is there a measure

573
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 4: for something like that, because, as you're saying, it's kind

574
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: of almost nascent in medicine for most doctors to even

575
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 4: take the mind body connection seriously, So how does one

576
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: measure that?

577
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 8: But Chelsea, that's so weird is that none of these

578
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 8: ideas on you. Jean Mattan Charcot, a French neurologist to

579
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 8: first describe multiple sclerosis, said that this disease caused by stress.

580
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 8: A great Canadian, American, British position. Sir William Mosler said

581
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 8: the same thing about women the elite writers in eighteen ninety.

582
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 8: In nineteen thirty nine, there was a very famous lecture

583
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 8: given at Harvard University by a doctor who's still revered

584
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 8: at Harvard, and this lecture was published in the Journal

585
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 8: of the Medical American Medical Association, where he said that

586
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 8: emotional factors are as important in the causation of illness

587
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 8: as physical ones, and they have to be at least

588
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 8: as important in treatment. And this article is published in

589
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 8: Drama Journal of the American Medical Association in nineteen forty

590
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 8: And to this day, even his member's name, they don't

591
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 8: remember what he taught.

592
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: They don't teach what he talked.

593
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 8: Now, in a decade since this famous physician at Harvard

594
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 8: made that statement, we've had eighty years of research showing

595
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 8: that it's not that the emotional system in the brain

596
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 8: is connected to the nervous system or to the immune system.

597
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: They're not connected.

598
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 8: They're the same system like people who and to look

599
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 8: after people with Alzheimer's who tend to be women. By

600
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 8: the way, the caregivers, their chromosomes suffer, their immune system

601
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 8: is diminished, the more likely to get colds.

602
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: If they get a cold, it's all lasts longer if

603
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 3: you wound them on the skin, as the test that

604
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: wound will take longer to heal. So the emotional stress

605
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 3: of caregiving actually diminishes immunity.

606
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: Okay, well, on that note, we're going to take a

607
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: quick break. We'll be right back, and we're going to

608
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: take some callers and we're back.

609
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: We're back.

610
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 6: So our first color today is Mina. Dear Chelsea, She says,

611
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 6: a few years ago, my anxiety started taking a toll

612
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 6: on my relationship and my physical health. After hearing your

613
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 6: experience with doctor Dan, which is Chelsea's therapist, Dan Seagull.

614
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: Oh the therapist. Oh yes, yes, we're good friends.

615
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: Then I oh good. Good to know.

616
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 8: As a matter of fact, about five weeks ago, going

617
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 8: through a very difficult time and guess what I call it?

618
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 6: Oh wow, well perfect, Mina says, I have embarked on

619
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 6: EMDR therapy for what my therapist calls complex trauma, and

620
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 6: I've been facing things I never thought I would have

621
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 6: to relive so that I can process them in a

622
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 6: healthy way. That being said, I still really struggle with

623
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 6: mind body connection. Unless I engage four out of my

624
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 6: five senses, I simply cannot shut my brain off. So essentially,

625
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 6: unless I'm listening to exotic flute music while submerged in

626
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 6: an ice bath with a eucalyptus leaf under my nose,

627
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 6: It's impossible for me to meditate. Do you have any

628
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 6: suggestions on forms of meditation or other therapies that engage

629
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 6: several senses at once, or any other tactics Just listening

630
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 6: to something doesn't cut it for me. Thank you for everything, Mina.

631
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 7: Hi, Mina, Hi Chelsea.

632
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: Hi.

633
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 4: Our special guest today is Gobormate. So I think you

634
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 4: are going to be in good hands.

635
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh oh are you so excited? Look at that face?

636
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, I'm yeah wow, okay, okay, yeah, okay.

637
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 8: Well hi, Hi, let me just go back to the

638
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 8: original statement that the anxiety was hard on your relationship.

639
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

640
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 9: So I wrote this a couple of months ago, and

641
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 9: since I have written through to Kelsy and Catherine, I've

642
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 9: started EMDR, Yeah, which has been amazing and incredibly helpful.

643
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 9: I've been in therapy for a while, but the EMDR

644
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 9: has also been quite difficult, to be.

645
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: Honest, Yeah, what was difficult about it?

646
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 9: Honestly, it resurfaced a lot of trauma that I had

647
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 9: about ten or twelve years ago that I had not

648
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 9: I mean, I knew was there, but it hadn't really

649
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 9: come up for me until I sort of want in

650
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 9: this deep dive. The first couple of times I did

651
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 9: the reprocessing, I didn't actually notice anything, to be honest,

652
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 9: I sort of felt a bit like nothing was happening.

653
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 9: And then I did it a few more times and

654
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 9: I felt extremely uncomfortable and I didn't sleep well, and

655
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 9: I started having very vivid dreams and a lot of anxiety.

656
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: All right, And did you tell you a therapist then?

657
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, she's she's aware.

658
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: And when you told you a therapist what happened, she

659
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 3: said that.

660
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 7: It was completely normal and part of the process.

661
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: And did you want to continue with that process?

662
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 7: I have continued.

663
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 8: Yes, is that because you wanted to continue with it. Yes,

664
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 8: can you check in with yourself right now? So what's

665
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 8: happening for you at the present moment?

666
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 7: A little bit of a pit in the base of

667
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 7: my stomach.

668
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: Tell me what that feels like? Is that? Okay?

669
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 9: If I ask you that, Yeah, it's similar to Actually

670
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 9: it's similar to when I actually do amdr and my

671
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 9: therapist ask me. She goes, how are you feeling after

672
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 9: or during? And I always say, oh, I have a

673
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 9: bit of a like a little pit in my stomach

674
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 9: and it feels really uncomfortable.

675
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 8: Okay, so this is a discomfort there. Yeah, can you

676
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 8: put your attention on that for a moment? Half familiar?

677
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 3: Is it to you? Is it you? Is it old?

678
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 5: Very?

679
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 3: Is it very? Halfway?

680
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 7: Does it go back my whole life?

681
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 3: Okay?

682
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 8: That means they have some difficult news for you. Okay, yeah,

683
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 8: but it's intended to be helpful. Yeah, your trauma didn't

684
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 8: start kind of twelve years.

685
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 3: Ago, No, I know, it goes way back.

686
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, Okay, Now, so that's the first point. Okay, an

687
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 8: your therapy, have you dealt with that long ago stuff

688
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 8: or not.

689
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 9: We've done exercises where it's what's the strongest memory and

690
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 9: what's the earliest memory. And then when I go into

691
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 9: the earliest memory, I do the reprocessing.

692
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: So hawway have you gone back like four years old?

693
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 3: Four years old? So it does go back a long way.

694
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

695
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 8: First of all, what I'm hearing is you've had some

696
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 8: traumas in childhood that you're still working on right now.

697
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 9: Yeah.

698
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,879
Speaker 8: That's sometimes when you do the NDR or even talk

699
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 8: about it, but somebody like me, it brings up these

700
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 8: physical feelings that are so familiar to you. Yeah, okay,

701
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 8: and that you know, I agree with your therapist. I

702
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 8: mean that's going to happen. The method I'd recommend for

703
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 8: you and actually probably to talk to you about this

704
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 8: is Dan Seagull's wheel overweareness so familiar with that one,

705
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 8: I'm not known. It's very simple, a very easy to

706
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 8: learn mindful awareness.

707
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: Technique, but I think it's way effective because it allows

708
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: you to identify your calm center even as you're having

709
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: these experiences, You're going to find that sort of grounded

710
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: center in the middle of it all that will help

711
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: you get through it.

712
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 7: Yeah.

713
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 9: So I get like intense panic, really really intense.

714
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: Panic, and what happens when you get into panic.

715
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 7: I basically just disassociate.

716
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 3: But what happens to you high to ventilate, the.

717
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 9: Shape hyperventilate, I get nauseous, cold sweats, I can't see straight.

718
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 7: It's a full, just full pedic attack.

719
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: Okay, well, look here's what I have to tell you.

720
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 8: I cannot, in this short conversation in the context of

721
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 8: our podcast, really help you as much as i'd want to.

722
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 8: I'd really have to spend time with you, being your presence,

723
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 8: talk about some of your stuff, have you experience whatever

724
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 8: you're going through, be there with you, and then I

725
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 8: could tell you how it would help you. In this case,

726
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 8: you're dealing with a tough problem. But sounds like you've

727
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 8: got some good support. So that's the good news. You

728
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 8: have good support professionally, and you have good support sounds

729
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 8: like personally. I cannot solve the problem for you in

730
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 8: the short I wish I could.

731
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: No, of course not, but I want to jump in

732
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 4: and just say a couple of things to you. First

733
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 4: of all, the Wheel of Awareness is a great reference,

734
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: and this is Dan Siegel. He's got tons of books

735
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 4: that he's written as well.

736
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 7: It's basically can wait, Chelsea.

737
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 9: Dan's you're a therapist, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you

738
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 9: guys are why I went into therapy.

739
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: Oh great, love it, love it.

740
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 4: So it's basically your center, and you are spokes on

741
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 4: a wheel, and everything that's coming out of you is

742
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 4: kind of your wheel of awareness.

743
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: Right.

744
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 4: And it's almost like if you're a plane and you're

745
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 4: flying over yourself the center of your gravity, you're looking

746
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 4: down like your emotions are this flying over and this

747
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 4: is your center. So anything that's happening within you you

748
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 4: can be an observer of instead of being in reaction

749
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 4: to it. Right, You don't need to necessarily because when

750
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 4: you are having these panic attacks, I suspect it's because

751
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 4: you're trying to escape the feeling that you're having.

752
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, that pit in your stomach.

753
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's almost like anxiety about having anxiety exactly.

754
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 4: So this is something that is going to be very

755
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 4: helpful to you because it was very helpful to me.

756
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 4: When you're having such a negative feeling or a feeling

757
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 4: that is bringing you to a place that you don't

758
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 4: want to recall, you have the power to sit with

759
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 4: it instead of trying to push it away and saying

760
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 4: I don't want to think about this.

761
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to think about it.

762
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 4: You take it in and feel it holy and that

763
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 4: is the way for it to move through your body

764
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 4: and also your brain without sending you into a flurry

765
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 4: and sending you into a panic attack.

766
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 9: And it is a practice, so you get these feelings

767
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 9: that scares me so much, the idea of sitting with it,

768
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 9: I know.

769
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 1: But this is what's going to set you free from

770
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: panic attacks.

771
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 8: But you know what, you can also listen to Dan

772
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 8: guiding you through it, so you're not actually as alone

773
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 8: as you think you are. Yes, there's the one final

774
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 8: thing I want to say to you. There's nothing wrong

775
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 8: with you. Okay, you don't have a mental illness. What

776
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 8: you've got is a perfectly normal response to something. I'm

777
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 8: normal that happened to you.

778
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 7: That's really comforting to hear because nobody's phrase.

779
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: It like that.

780
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 8: Whatever the circumstances were. Whereas the four year old you

781
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 8: first developed this anxiety, there's two things that can tell

782
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 8: you you were being hurt and there was nobody there

783
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 8: to listen to you, to hear you, and to hold you. Yeah,

784
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 8: and our brains, you know what, Our brains have a

785
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 8: circuit in it for panic. We actually have a panic circuit.

786
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 8: Because if an infant is left alone and they're in

787
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 8: danger or they're lonely, they should panic. And when they panic,

788
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 8: what did they do? They scream for help? And when

789
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 8: they scream for help, what should happen? The adults should

790
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 8: come running. Yeah, in your case, nobody came running exactly. Yeah,

791
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 8: you were being hurt and.

792
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: There was nobody there to help.

793
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 8: Your panic is a perfectly normal human response to something

794
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 8: abnormal that never should have happened, and if it did happen,

795
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 8: you never should have been alone with it.

796
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 3: So we had to just really rest in the idea

797
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 3: that there's nothing wrong with you. That it's uncomfortable, it's scary,

798
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: but there's nothing.

799
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 4: Wrong with you that is really comforting to hear and

800
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 4: to give yourself the time I'm to deal with those

801
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 4: difficult emotions. I know it's said, like you just said,

802
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 4: it sounds so scary, but if you sit with yourself,

803
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 4: it's just a feeling and it will pass as long

804
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 4: as and as soon as you resist it, it persists.

805
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 4: Right Like we know that as soon as you say no,

806
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 4: I don't want to feel this way, then that's when

807
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 4: you start to scramble. That's when you start to panic.

808
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 4: If you allow it to sit with you and you

809
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 4: sit there and let it work its way through your body,

810
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 4: as scary as that may be, it most likely won't

811
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 4: result in the way it has been resulting for you.

812
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 9: That's what's so crazy, is like there are times where

813
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 9: I'll like, let it sit through and I'll be like,

814
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 9: oh wow, look at that. It passed and I was

815
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 9: totally fine. And then there are other times where I'm like,

816
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 9: I'm going to die from this feeling like that. That's overwhelming.

817
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. And whenever you have that thought and then and

818
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: may have that pension in you, what you're actually having

819
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 3: is a memory of childhood. Yeah, that's what's happening. Might

820
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: want to remind yourself if you can. I'm having a

821
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: memory right now. When I say a memory, I mean

822
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: a body memory.

823
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, And just to remember like I'm an adult and.

824
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 4: You're saying exactly, yeah, that's not happening to you anymore.

825
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

826
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And try not to resist it, like you know

827
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: what I mean.

828
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 4: I know it's you don't want it, but when it

829
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 4: comes to go, okay, try a different exercise, try and

830
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 4: bring it in and say okay.

831
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: Because you've experienced it before, and it will pass.

832
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 4: Everything passes, and the more control you gain over it,

833
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 4: the more you minimize this happening to you.

834
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 8: There's a huge difference, not only that you're an adult

835
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 8: and you were a child then, but then you had

836
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 8: no opportunity to ask for help and all you do. Yeah,

837
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 8: so it'll never be as bad as it was then.

838
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, well, thank you, Thank you so so much,

839
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 5: seriously amazing, You're welcome, good luck to you. Thank you

840
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: guys so much. Thanks me, and take care, take care,

841
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 5: bye bye bye.

842
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 6: I love that advice you gave when I had told

843
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 6: Chelsea beforehand, I had done some work on somatic pain therapy,

844
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,720
Speaker 6: and a lot of it was what's the feeling you're feeling,

845
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 6: focusing on it, And there is something wild about when

846
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 6: you focus on the pain, it feels different. It diminishes,

847
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 6: whether that's emotional pain, whether that's physical pain. But I

848
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 6: also think for Mina, the fact that she's having this

849
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 6: anger and this anxiety come up that she's been repressing

850
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 6: for so long, like that's the work being done.

851
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 7: You know.

852
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 6: It's messy and it's sticky, and it affects those around

853
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 6: us while we're going through it. But I think she's

854
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 6: really well on her way to healing.

855
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 8: Look, exactly what I say to people often is you

856
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 8: can have two kinds of pain. You can have the

857
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:54,479
Speaker 8: pain of trying to escape into denial, into addictions, into

858
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 8: addictions they're all about escaping pain, all of them, or

859
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 8: into relationships, or into mindless watching television or whatever you can.

860
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 8: You can have and then have the.

861
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: Consequences of those behaviors of eating or whatever, you know,

862
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 3: Or you can have the pain of discovering the truth.

863
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 8: You may not have a choice of whether you're gonna

864
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 8: have a pain or that. It's a question of which

865
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 8: pain are you gonna do you want? Do you want

866
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 8: the pain that's going to help you grow, or do

867
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 8: you want the pain that's going to keep you stuck?

868
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 8: And one of one of the toxicity, one of the

869
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 8: poisonous aspects as I concerned of this culture. It's it's

870
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 8: so much about escaping pain rather than dealing with the

871
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 8: sources of it.

872
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 4: It's funny when you talk about that mindlessly watching TV.

873
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 4: You know a lot of people don't think about that.

874
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 4: They think, oh, you're relaxing. You know, I've been I've

875
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 4: done that so many times where I just it's such

876
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 4: an escapism, I mean, and it's just like any other addiction.

877
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 4: So yeah, mindlessly watching TV isn't always mindlessly watching TV.

878
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 3: And when you actually look at the content of it,

879
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 3: so much of it so bad for people, you know,

880
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 3: like the violence they watch or the degraded relationships they're ingesting,

881
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 3: some really toxic stuff.

882
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they say, you know, our brains can't tell

883
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 6: the difference between watching something violent on TV and when

884
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 6: it's happening to us. You know, our brains aren't that

885
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 6: that evolved. We experience that stress from whatever we're watching

886
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 6: on television.

887
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 8: By the way, I'm not saying people should never watch TV,

888
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 8: nor is it always about to escape, But if you're

889
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 8: gonna do it, don't do it mindlessly. Right right, I'm

890
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 8: gonna think half an hour, an hour, an hour, I'm

891
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 8: totally veg ou so vegio consciously.

892
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

893
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like eating, right, you got to eat mindfully.

894
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 6: Well, Marion says, this is really a question about dealing

895
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 6: with trauma as it's happening. I'm forty one and I

896
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 6: have twin girls who are four and a son who's three,

897
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 6: practice triplets. I just found out in February that my

898
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 6: husband has had a girlfriend, and I've begun the divorce process.

899
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 6: He was my best friend and even though things were hard,

900
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 6: sometimes I was still so in love with him. But

901
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 6: cheating was my limit and he knew it. I've been

902
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 6: reading the book you so highly recommend, Letting Go, which

903
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 6: is when we talk about a lot on the podcast here,

904
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 6: and I'm applying the lessons in other areas of my

905
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 6: life that I was holding on to too tightly. And

906
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 6: I like the lightness that brings to me. But how

907
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 6: can I get through a custody battle and still wish

908
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 6: him well and send him love? Or must I let

909
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 6: this horrible battle go? I understand how to let go

910
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 6: of things that are in the rear view mirror, but

911
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 6: how do you let go of something when it's something

912
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 6: you can't let go of that you're still in the

913
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 6: middle of.

914
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 2: Mirian.

915
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: Well, a bunch of things come up for me.

916
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 8: First of all, most people when they're being light too,

917
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 8: they get some sense of something is not quite right.

918
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 8: This person who I would ask you first, well, before

919
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 8: you found out about the affair, do you have any

920
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 8: sense that maybe things go are quite way with this guy?

921
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 8: Is there some gut feeling that you ignored in yourself.

922
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 8: Most of the time I asked that question, I don't

923
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 8: know what her answer would be, but most of the

924
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 8: time I asked that question, people say, yeah, I had

925
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 8: the gut thing, but I ignored it. So the betrayal

926
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 8: wasn't just a partner betraying you. It's also you betraying yourself,

927
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 8: not that you meant to. Again, I had to do

928
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 8: with child and conditioning, and unfortunately this scenario I've seen

929
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 8: too often that small kids come into the family and

930
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 8: then the big kid can't stand it because mommy and

931
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 8: all of suddenly isn't available, so he goes in he

932
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 8: an affair. Because men very often relate to women like

933
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 8: surrogate mothers as well as partners. So I don't know

934
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 8: if that's happened here. But here's the point. You probably

935
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 8: didn't pay attention. Not your fault, it's your program, but

936
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,279
Speaker 8: not pay attention. So when you say you want to

937
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 8: send them in love and so on, why the hell

938
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 8: do you want to do that. I mean, if love

939
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 8: comes up for you, if forgiveness till letting go genuinely

940
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 8: come up for you, I'm.

941
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: Very happy for you. You be a fear for it.

942
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: But don't force yourself, don't put a trip on yourself.

943
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 8: This guy was dishonest with you when you had small

944
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 8: children to look after, when you most needed support, when

945
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 8: you most needed somebody to be there for you. He

946
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 8: decided that this is the moment that he's going to

947
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 8: go and please his own desires. How do you feel

948
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 8: about that? I hope there's anger for you there. That's

949
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 8: the healthy response. I'm not saying you should get stuck

950
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 8: in the anger, but if it's there, for God's sake,

951
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 8: don't ignore it. And furthermore, it's going to be a

952
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 8: custody battle, which is really tough on you, and if

953
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 8: it curse to the courts.

954
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: I tell you what's going to happen in the course.

955
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: His lawyer is going to try and make you look

956
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 3: like an incompetent mother, because that's what lawyers do. Not

957
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: Maybe it'll be resolved amicably, Maybe they'll mediation. I hope so.

958
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 8: But in so far as there's a custody battle, you

959
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 8: really have to look at to your own integrity, your

960
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 8: own physical and emotion integrity, look at to yourn emotions.

961
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 8: Don't make it your job to send him love and

962
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 8: all that kind of stuff. If you get to that

963
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 8: point by all means, but right now, put the attention

964
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 8: on taking care of yourself and allowing your stuff to

965
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 8: feel whatever is there.

966
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree.

967
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 4: I would say that that book Letting Go by David

968
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 4: Hawkins is good for I mean, it's very hard to

969
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 4: apply that book into a situation where you are actively

970
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 4: in combat with somebody.

971
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: I would echo everything that.

972
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,439
Speaker 4: A boor said, and especially sometimes you have to fight,

973
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 4: you know what I mean, to get custody of your

974
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 4: children or to do what's right in a situation, and

975
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 4: while you're in it, I think the biggest gift you

976
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 4: can give yourself is to look at your behavior, you know,

977
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 4: from a level of consciousness, rather than being mired in

978
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 4: your own behavior and your reactivity, and understand when it's

979
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 4: necessary for you to react or when it's not. And

980
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 4: so just kind of it's almost like you're watching over yourself,

981
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,959
Speaker 4: you know, to be very mindful of how you're using

982
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,399
Speaker 4: that energy and what the best use of your time

983
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 4: within this argument and this divorce and this custody battle is.

984
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 4: And then once it's over, then you can really work

985
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 4: on forgiveness and sending love. And I think that is

986
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 4: a that's something that you cannot push and like fast forward,

987
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 4: you have to really wait until everything is resolved and

988
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 4: you're in a position where it's in your past, because

989
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 4: it's not yet in your past. And I think that

990
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: book is really about letting go of your past, not

991
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 4: the present necessarily of the past. So while they're great tools,

992
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 4: don't pressure yourself into applying them in a situation like this,

993
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 4: because you need your wits about you and.

994
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: You're going to your feelings while you're going through this.

995
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you don't want to deny yourself what's happening to

996
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 4: you right now or what's happening with you right now.

997
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 4: But I wish you well in that and I'm glad

998
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 4: that you put your foot down and kicked them out

999
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 4: of the house and are starting divorce proceedings because you

1000
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 4: don't deserve that. Okay, well, that's our episode today. This

1001
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 4: is serious business with Yukabora. Thank you for imparting us

1002
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 4: with your wisdom.

1003
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 3: My pleasure. Thank you, thanks for having me.

1004
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: Yes, I'll see you in Canada. Okay, Okay, take care,

1005
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much, so much.

1006
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 2: Pake sure, bye bye bye bye.

1007
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: Okay, guys, we have added more shows to my Little

1008
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: Big Bitch Tour.

1009
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 4: I added another second show in Toronto, so I have

1010
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 4: two shows in Toronto now to December seventh, December eighth,

1011
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 4: December ninth, I'm in Ottawa and two new shows at

1012
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 4: December fifteenth. On a Friday, We're doing a seven thirty

1013
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 4: and ten pm show with Kevin Hart and Friends that's

1014
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 4: in Thackerville, Oklahoma. And all my other shows that you

1015
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 4: can buy tickets at Chelseahandler dot com. I'm starting my

1016
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 4: tour backup on September twenty ninth in New York City

1017
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 4: at the Beacon, which is sold out, but the next

1018
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 4: night there are tickets available September thirtieth at the Beacon,

1019
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 4: So for all fall dates, you can go to Chelseamandler

1020
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 4: dot com for tickets.

1021
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: And you'll see me.

1022
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 6: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email

1023
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 6: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be

1024
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 6: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited

1025
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 6: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and

1026
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 6: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot

1027
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 6: com