1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Hey there, listener, this is going to be the final 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: episode of American Shadows. We started up in the summer 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, a weirdly appropriate time to talk about 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: the dark parts of the history of the United States. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: It's been three years and seventy eight episodes of me 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: vocal frying my way through the conspiracies, disasters, diseases, scandals, scams, murders, 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: and bouts of absolute heroics that, for worse or better 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: have brought us to where we are today. I wanted 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: to take a second to sincerely thank the entire crew 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: here at iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild for the means 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: and an opportunity to share these stories, but particularly my 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: producers Miranda Hawkins and Jesse Funk, who have put up 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: with my raw tape and shaped it into something beautiful, 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: special things, as well to Grimm and Mild's head of 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: writing research formerly Karl Nellis and now Robin Menetter, who 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: wrangled the stories into existence to begin with, and Michelle Mudo, 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: Alie Stead, and Taylor Haggerdorn who have been on the 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: project since day one, along with relative newcomers Cassandra to Albo, 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: Alex Robinson, and Jamie Vargas. Y'all have made my job 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: easy and I am so excited to hear whatever you 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: work on next. And of course, thanks to Aaron Menke 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: for building such a strange sandbox for projects like this. 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: And thanks to you for listening and saying hi to 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: me when I introduced myself every episode, or tweeting me 25 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: about cemeteries, or just following along with us. It's been 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: an honor to work with these people and to give 27 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: voice to these stories. I hope that we'll get to 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: do more of it in the future, but for now, 29 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Vogelbaum. Thank you for being here, for being you, 30 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: for being curious, and now on with the show you're 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: listening to. American Shadows, a production of iHeart Rate and 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankie. The President had never married, 33 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: and he never would. James Buchanan, a president of the 34 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: United States from eighteen fifty seven to eighteen sixty one, 35 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: is the only president in our country's history to have 36 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: never taken a wife. During his time in office, rumors 37 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: about his private life spread through the halls of the Capitol, 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: and those rumors are still swirling today. Buchanan was not 39 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: always single in his early twenties. He had actually been 40 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: engaged to a woman named Anne Coleman, but she broke 41 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: it off before they could make it to the altar. 42 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: She had expressed to her friends that Buchanan didn't treat 43 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: her with the affection she would expect from her future husband. 44 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: After the end of their relationship, Anne was believed to 45 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: have ended her own life. Many people attributed her apparent 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: suicide to her fail engagement. For the rest of his life, 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: James Buchanan seemed wholly disinterested in wooing other women. Some 48 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: believed that he still held a candle for Anne. However, 49 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: most speculated that he stayed single for an entirely different reason. 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: The prevailing rumor in the federal government was that James 51 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: Buchanan was actually queer. Note here that, of course, language 52 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: evolves as time goes on, and the word queer as 53 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: it's used today was not used in the same way 54 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties. However, though it may sound a 55 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: little a historical, we will be using the reclaimed umbrella 56 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: term queer throughout this episode to describe lesbian, gay by trans, queer, intersex, asexual, 57 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: et cetera. People people whose orientations may not have fit 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: into these societal norms of the time. James Buchanan certainly 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: was speculated to have lived a private lifestyle that went 60 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: against the norms of the day well before he was president, 61 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: and his sexuality was regularly questioned. His political adversaries would 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: criticize him for his shrill voice and his smooth, beardless cheeks. 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: Most of the rumors about him, however, revolved around his 64 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: very close friendship with one William Rufus King, a senator 65 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: from Alabama. A King and Buchanan met in eighteen twenty one, 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: after Buchanan was first elected to Congress. For over a decade, 67 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: they lived in a board house together four Congress's single members. 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: As the years passed, more and more congressmen moved out, 69 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: until only King and Buchanan remained. The only time they 70 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: altered this limming arrangement was when they each accepted different 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: diplomatic positions abroad. The nature of King and Buchanan's relationship 72 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: was the frequent topic of societal gossip. Politicians would hurl 73 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: slurs like aunt nancy and aunt fancy at them, both 74 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: of which were rude slang terms for gay men. Some 75 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: in Washington even referred to them as mister Buchanan and 76 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: his wife. Aaron Brown, who was one of Buchanan's political rivals, 77 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: wrote a letter railing against Buchanan and King's relationship, calling 78 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: King Buchanan's better half. Many years later, President John Tyler's 79 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: wife recalled Buchanan and King as being Siamese twins. They 80 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: were very noticeably joined at the hip. What still exists 81 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: of Kings and Buchanan's correspondence with one another was cautious 82 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: and cryptic. However, not many of their letters actually remain. 83 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: Many were lost when the king estate burned during the 84 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: Civil War. King also destroyed any letters from Buchanan that 85 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: were marked private or confidential, a meaning that Buchanan's more 86 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: personal letters can never be read for confirmation of the 87 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: true nature of their relationship. There are, of course, historians 88 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: who believed that King and Buchanan were not lovers, but 89 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: were instead very close friends. Regardless of whether or not 90 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: James Buchanan was queer in the mid nineteenth century, it 91 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,679 Speaker 1: wasn't so thing that could have barred him from taking 92 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: office legally speaking. However, as we'll see, that would not 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: always be the case. Eventually identifying as anything but straight, 94 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: or even just being accused of it could preclude someone 95 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: from holding any job within the federal government. I'm Lorn Vogelbaum, 96 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to American Shadows. The bar was alive with raucous 97 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: laughter and music, and the man at the piano played 98 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: a different tune for every guy who walked through the door. 99 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: The Chicken Hut was an unassuming bar in downtown Washington, 100 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: d C. Technically its name was Leon's Restaurant, but none 101 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: of its clientele called it that. A regular restaurant by day, 102 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: the Chicken Hut transformed into the city's most popular gay bar. 103 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: By night, the Hut served as the epicenter of social life, 104 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: where DC's queer men throughout the nighte teen forties and 105 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: fifties packed tight on weekend nights. It was a haven 106 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: where they could openly be themselves without fear of repercussions. 107 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: The Hut, popular as it was, was only a haven 108 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: for white, middle class queer men. Black men were not 109 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: welcome at the bar, even after d C officially desegregated 110 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three. Women also did not frequent the 111 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: Chicken Hut or any queer men's bars heard that matter, 112 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: instead choosing to congregate at a single lesbian bar a 113 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: few blocks away. D C's queer community had grown significantly 114 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: leading up to the fifties. Between nineteen thirty and nineteen fifty, 115 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: the city's population had doubled. The New Deal had created 116 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: a significant number of new government jobs, and the influx 117 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: of employees to the district included a number of queer people. 118 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: They built a rich social life for themselves, holding picnics 119 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: at the Botanic Conservatory and roller skating parties in front 120 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: of the Lincoln Memorial. Much of the city's gay social life, however, 121 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: entered around Lafayette Park, which had been a famous spot 122 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: for gay men to cruise since the eighteen hundreds. The 123 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: Chicken Hut was located only steps from Lafayette Park, finding 124 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: itself in the exact right location to provide a home 125 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: to roost for the gay white men of the city. 126 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: The Hut's most well known member was its piano player, 127 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: known as Miss Hattie by the bars regulars. Howard would 128 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: play jaunty show tunes in popular songs of the day, 129 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: often rewriting the lyrics to make them more body. Whenever 130 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: Howard played a particularly scandalous line, the bar's patrons would 131 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: shout out, did you hear that Miss Blick? A Miss 132 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: Blick referred to Lieutenant Roy Blick, who served as the 133 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: head of the Metropolitan Police Department's Morality Division. The taunt 134 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: entered into the local queer vernacular, but in reality, Roy 135 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Blick and his division weren't anything to laugh at. They 136 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: were charged with cracking down on anything considered to be 137 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: a sexual perversion, which at this time included homosexuality. Places 138 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: like the Chicken Hut and Lafayette Park were under intense 139 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: scrutiny as the police kept an eye out for anything 140 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: they might consider to be immoral. In nineteen forty seven, 141 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: the US Park Police began a program called the Pervert 142 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: Elimination Campaign. Blick and other officers would patrol cruising spots 143 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: like Lafayette Park, arresting anyone they suspected of being queer. 144 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: By nineteen fifty, two hundred men were arrested under this program, 145 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: while five hundred others were apprehended. They were questioned and fingerprinted, 146 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: and then their names were added to what was called 147 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: the pervert file, which was kept by Lieutenant Blick himself. 148 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: One in four men detained at Lafayette Park was believed 149 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: to be a government employee. If their names were published 150 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: in the newspapers, and they often were, it would ruin 151 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: their reputations and careers. DC's queer community wasn't just being 152 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: smoked out of their chosen recreational spots. They were also 153 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: being systematically purged from the federal government's payroll. Beginning in 154 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven, the government started their official campaign to 155 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: weed its queer employees out. In June of that year, 156 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: a Senate Appropriations Committee condemned quote the extensive employment in 157 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: highly classified positions of admitted homosexuals, who are historically known 158 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: to be security risks. A Queer people were often conflated 159 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: with communists, as both were believed to be immoral, psychologically disturbed, 160 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: and godless of Following this report, the Secretary of State 161 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: set up a personal security board for the State Department. 162 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: Within the next three years, the State Department quietly fired 163 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: ninety one employees who they determined were queer. In June 164 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty eight, things got even more difficult for 165 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: the queer residence of DC. President Harry Truman signed the 166 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: National Miller Sexual Psychopath Law, which codified the act of 167 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: Quote sodomyn. The smallest of sexual acts between people of 168 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: the same sex could result in a twenty year imprisonment 169 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: or one thousand dollars fine, which would be the equivalent 170 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: of over twelve thousand dollars today. The first two men 171 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: to be arrested under this law were in Washington, d C. 172 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: The government cracked down on the queer community changed DC's 173 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: gay social scene entirely. A government employee started to avoid 174 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: popular spots like the Chicken Hut and Lafayette Park Optic, 175 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: instead to fly under the radar at less obvious venues. 176 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: Gay men stopped telling people where they worked and fearing 177 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: that their private life would get back to their superiors. 178 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: And as bad as it had become for queer government 179 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: employees at the tail end of the nineteen forties, the 180 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties would be even worse. The government's purge was 181 00:11:47,960 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: only getting started. At that time. Very few people knew 182 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: who Senator Joseph McCarthy was. He was not yet the 183 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: man who would embark on a manic quest to eliminate communism. 184 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: He was simply an inocuous first term senator from Wisconsin. 185 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: That all changed, however, on February ninth of nineteen fifty. 186 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: On that day, McCarthy gave his now famous speech in 187 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: which he claimed to have a list of two hundred 188 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: and five communists in the State Department. He never actually 189 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: disclosed the names that were on this list, but that 190 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: didn't matter. The fear he stoked with these allegations would 191 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: snowball into what we know today as the Red Scare. 192 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: On February twenty, McCarthy gave a six hour speech to 193 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: the Senate to expand upon his claims. However, at this 194 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: time he reduced his list of known communists to only 195 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: fifty seven. McCarthy wasn't always the most consistent. The number 196 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: of communists who had allegedly infiltrated the State Department would 197 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: change several more times. No matter how many there were, 198 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: Carthy believed that every single one of them was, in 199 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: his words, mentally twisted in some way. One of the 200 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: manifestations of that mental aberration was he believed homosexuality. During 201 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: McCarthy's speech, he said that one of the communists on 202 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: his list was a flagrant homosexual who had a huge 203 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: network of queer communist connections. Quick to dismiss any suggestions 204 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: that the State Department posed a security risk. A press 205 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: release was sent out denying the fact that the agency 206 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: employed any communists. However, they summarily fired two hundred people, 207 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: and just one week after McCarthy's inflammatory speech, the Deputy 208 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: under Secretary of State testified to the Senate that they 209 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: had indeed fired ninety one queer employees in the previous 210 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: three years. The number ninety one became shorthand for the 211 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: homosexual threat looming over the nation, and it was considered 212 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: to be a threat today. When we think of the 213 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: Red Scare, we mainly of communism. However, that wasn't everyone's 214 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: primary concern. Of the twenty five thousand letters that McCarthy 215 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: received from scared American citizens, only one in four were 216 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: about communism. The rest condemned the perceived sexually deranged homosexuals 217 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: who were lurking in the government. Rumors even started spreading 218 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: that the Soviets were finding blackmail targets in the United 219 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: States government by using a secret list of homosexuals that 220 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: had been compiled by Hitler, and so began the Red 221 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Scares lesser known sibling, the Lavender Scare. In March of 222 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, the first Senate subcommittee was formed to investigate 223 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: homosexuality in the federal workforce. One of the people to 224 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: testify to the subcommittee was none other than Lieutenant Roy Black, 225 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: who claimed that there were five thousand gay men and 226 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: women in DC and that three thousand, seven hundred of 227 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: them worked for the government. The numbers had no basis 228 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: in reality, but they were widely reported by the press regardless. 229 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: Based on all of this, the Senate started an in 230 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: depth investigation of the government's employment of quote, immoral perverts. 231 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: They beheld a number of hearings. Out of all of them, 232 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: not a single one involved interviewing anyone from the queer community. 233 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: Congressional members did not fully understand queerness and therefore didn't 234 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: fully understand what they were investigating. After hearing that there 235 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: were people who were neither entirely homosexual or heterosexual, one 236 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: senator asked if there was a quick test like an 237 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: X ray that discloses these things. Such ignorance would characterize 238 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: how they moved forward with their investigations. No evidence emerged 239 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: during these hearings that queer employees were ever blackmailed into 240 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: exposing state secrets, but in the end that didn't matter. 241 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: Congress eventually determined that queer people were threat simply because 242 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: their deviancy made them morally weak. Between April and November 243 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty three, hundred and eighty two people were 244 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: fired from their federal jobs. The vast majority of them 245 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: never even had access to sensitive government materials. However, many 246 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: had prior charges related to homosexuality, which, in the eyes 247 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: of the politicians of the day, meant that they were 248 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,359 Speaker 1: polluting the moral integrity of the government. As one might imagine, 249 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,479 Speaker 1: these mass layoffs had a grim effect on DC's queer population. 250 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: People began moving to new jobs and new cities. Those 251 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: who remained were unable to trust one another for fear 252 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: of their identities being exposed. The queer government employees stopped 253 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: going to popular spots within their community. Some wouldn't even 254 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: attend parties unless they knew every single person who would 255 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: be there. Gay men and women started to pose as 256 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: each other's partners when the need arose. The governments prejudiced 257 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: towards its queer employees would only continue to grow. On 258 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: April twenty seventh of nineteen fifty three, when President Eisenhower 259 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: signed an executive order banning anyone who exhibited a sexual 260 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: perversion from working for the government, and homosexuality was definitely 261 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: considered a sexual perversion at this time. Only the year before, 262 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: the American Psychiatric Association had officially categorized homosexuality as a 263 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: sociopathic personality disturbance. The lavender Scare purge was eradicating almost 264 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: every job opportunity that had previously been available to gay 265 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: men and women. The prospects for the queer community were grim. 266 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: It would take the dedication of a number of brave 267 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: people who were willing to risk their livelihoods and reputations 268 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: for justice to be served. In July of nineteen fifty seven, 269 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: Frank Cammeny was just another bright eyed new hire for 270 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: the government. After finishing his doctorate at Harvard, Frank had 271 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: been recruited as an astronomer for the U. S. Army 272 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: Map Service. His future was promising. He had secured an 273 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: enviable job and was doing meaningful work. He even harbored 274 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: hopes of becoming an astronaut one day, as the possibility 275 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: of space travel became more and more of a reality. However, 276 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: everything came crashing down for Frank in October of that 277 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: same year, when the government learned that he was queer. 278 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: Frank had known that he was gay since he was young. 279 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: He had lied about his orientation to enlist in the 280 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: army during World War II, and had continued to keep 281 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: it under wraps as the world became more and more 282 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: hostile to queer people. Still, Frank had managed to find 283 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: a foothold in the DC queer community after moving there 284 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six, visiting bars like the Chicken Hut 285 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: and immersing himself in the local culture. His involvement in 286 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 1: the DC gay scene isn't what brought the government's attention 287 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: to his secutional orientation, though in August of nineteen fifty six, 288 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: Frank had been arrested for quote lewde and indecent acts 289 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: while in San Francisco. He paid the fines required of him, 290 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,199 Speaker 1: and after a six month probation period, the state of 291 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: California changed his records to not guilty, case dismissed. Unfortunately, 292 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: the bloodhounds of the lavender Scare were not so easily 293 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: dissuaded from their cause. Only a few months after he 294 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: had been hired, the government got wind of the San 295 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: Francisco incident and fired him. In January of nineteen fifty eight, 296 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: Frank was told that he was barred from ever working 297 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: in the federal government again. This made him extremely unattractive 298 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: to private sector employers as well. With his doctorate in 299 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: astronomy and with the space race looming on the horizon, 300 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: Frank should have been an extremely desirable candidate for almost 301 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: any job he could have wanted. But not even his 302 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: educational pedigree could combat the prejudice against queer people in 303 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. But in the span of a couple 304 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: of months, Frank had become virtually unemployable. He was reduced 305 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: to living off of mere pennies depending on the generosity 306 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: of the Salvation Army. But Frank, however, disheartened and downtrodden, 307 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: would not go quietly. He approached the Washington d c. 308 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: Chapter of the ACLU, and with their help, he became 309 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: the very first person to challenge the government on their 310 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: discrimination against hiring queer people. The courts dismissed his case 311 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty nine and again in nineteen sixty. In 312 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: January of nineteen sixty one, Frank filed his case with 313 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. He had no attorney, but still felt 314 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: compelled to march into battle for the sake of his 315 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: and his community's equal rights and for their livelihoods. Two 316 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: months later, the Supreme Court declined to hear his case. 317 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: Frank even wrote to President Kennedy, appealing to the president's 318 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: famous line asked, not what your country can do for you, 319 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: but what you can do for your country. Frank wrote 320 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: that he simply wanted to serve his country, but that 321 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: his country had made it impossible for him to do so. 322 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: He never received a response. After seeingly exhausting all avenues, 323 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: Frank probably should have given up. Most people would if 324 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: they were in his shoes, but thankfully Frank didn't know 325 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: when to quit. Across the country, in California, people had 326 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: taken notice of what was happening in d C many 327 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: years before Frank began his fight. In response to the 328 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: government's blatant discrimination, the Mattachine Society was founded in nineteen fifty. 329 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: It was the first large scale queer society in the 330 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: United States, and soon it would be leading the fight 331 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: against the lavender scare Back in DC. Frank Hammany knew 332 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: he had almost run out of options, and so he 333 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: approached the problem from a different angle. In nineteen sixty one, 334 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: Frank established a DC chapter of the Mattachine Society. Within 335 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: a few months, he became president of the organization. The 336 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: Mattachine Society of Washington, or MSW, took a bold approach, 337 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: loudly declaring that queer people were deserving of the same 338 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: basic rights as their straight counterparts. They didn't hide underground, 339 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: but instead showed their faces and spoke for themselves instead 340 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: of hiring straight representatives. In nineteen sixty three, Frank became 341 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: the first openly gay man to testify before Congress. The 342 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: MSW advised on a number of legal cases, including one 343 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: filed by a man named Clifford Norton. Clifford had been 344 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: caught in Lafayette Park and was subsequently fired from his 345 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: position at NASA after working there for fifteen years. After 346 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: his dismissal, the MSW and the ACLU helped Clifford pursue 347 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: legal action. On July first of nineteen sixty nine, a 348 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: judge determined that the government had to prove a rational 349 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: connection between an employee's private affairs and their dismissal, and 350 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: that NASA had failed to do so. As a result 351 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: of this ruling, Clifford received one hundred thousand dollars from 352 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: the government and a generous pension. Clifford Norton's case set 353 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: a precedent that would be integral to shaping public policy 354 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: and eventually ending the government's discrimination against their queer employees. 355 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three, a federal court in San Francisco 356 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: cited the Norton case in a ruling that forced the 357 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: government to change their approach to how they handled their 358 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: queer employees. Eighteen months later, the Civil Service Commission changed 359 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: their regulations, erasing the words immoral conduct from their list 360 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: of reasons that an employee could be fired. The queer 361 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: men and women could once again work for the United 362 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: States government without fear of losing their jobs for who 363 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: they were, and the first person that the commissioner called 364 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: about the new changes none other than Frank Cammeny. There's 365 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: more to this story, and stick around after this brief 366 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: sponsored break to hear all about it. Queer people could 367 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: no longer be dismissed from the government payroll for their 368 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. However, that same rule did not apply to 369 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: the United States Armed Forces. The military continued to weed 370 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: out queer service members, but sometimes their ignorance of gay 371 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: culture worked against them. In October of nineteen eighty, a 372 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: twenty one year old by the name of Mel Doll 373 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: enlisted in the Navy as an electrician. He was stationed 374 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: at the Great Lakes Naval Station with no issues. He 375 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: had revealed that he was gay during his enlistment interview, 376 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: but it hadn't seemed to make a difference to his acceptance. 377 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: That would change. In nineteen eighty one, Mel decided to 378 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: enroll in cryptography school to further his skills for the Navy, 379 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: which required an updated security clearance. During his interview. For 380 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: the security clearance, Mel took all of the usual questions 381 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: about communist sympathies in stride. When he was asked about 382 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: his sexual orientation, Mel admitted that he was gay, seeing 383 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: no issue in the matter. Unfortunately, unlike when Mel had 384 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: first enlisted, it was now a problem. In January of 385 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, the Department of Defense had instituted a 386 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: new policy that required any service members who had ever 387 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: participated in home sexual acts to be immediately dismissed. So 388 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: after his interview, Mel was told that the Navy was 389 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: considering discharging him. In January of nineteen eighty two, Mel 390 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: was given an honorable discharge because of his sexual orientation. 391 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: No civil rights groups were willing to take on the 392 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: Department of Defense, and so Mel was forced to take 393 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: matters into his own hands. He walked three thousand miles 394 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: across the United States to raise both money and awareness 395 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: for his cause. The media quickly picked up on Mel's 396 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: walking crusade, interviewing him as he went. He told the 397 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 1: press that he was far from the only gay service 398 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: member at the Great Lakes Naval Station. Naturally, this sent 399 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: the higher ups at that naval station into a frenzy 400 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: to expose and dismiss them from the Navy. During their investigation, 401 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: the Navy discovered that their queer enlistees referred to themselves 402 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: and other gay men as friends of Dorothy. Gay men 403 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: had been using the term friends of Dorothy for years. 404 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: Some say that it dates back to the nineteen forties 405 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: as a reference to the character Dorothy in the movie 406 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: The Wizard of Oz. Others say that the term originated 407 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: from other women who ran in gay circles, Dorothy King 408 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: or perhaps Dorothy Parker. No matter the origin, it had 409 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: entered into the popular lexicon by the nineteen eighties, and 410 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: queer men were using it regularly. The naval investigators, however, 411 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: didn't understand the phrase friends of Dorothy was actually coded 412 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: language that just meant gay. They, in their ignorance, instead 413 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: believed that a woman named Dorothy was the head of 414 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: a huge, organized ring of queer military men. So naturally, 415 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: the Navy tried to hunt down this mastermind named Dorothy. 416 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: They frequented gay bars, asking if any of the men 417 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: there knew Dorothy. They interrogated all of the gay men 418 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: they discovered in the ranks of the Navy, doing their 419 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: best to uncover Dorothy's identity. Throughout the nineteen eighties, the 420 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: military discharged one thousand, five hundred gay men a year. 421 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 1: The elusive Dorothy never turned up. In nineteen ninety three, 422 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton signed Don't Ask, Don't Tell into effect, allowing 423 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: closeted queer people to remain in the military. In twenty ten, 424 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: Barack Obama changed that legislation to allow openly queer people 425 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,440 Speaker 1: to serve. Throughout all of these changes for queer service members, 426 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: Dorothy never ended up revealing herself. American Shadows is hosted 427 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: by Lauren Vogelbaum. This episode was written by Alex Robinson 428 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: and researched by cassandrad Alba. The fact checking by Jamie Vargas. 429 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: It's produced by Jesse Funk and Trevor Young. The executive 430 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: producers Aaron Menke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. To learn 431 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: more about the show, visit griminmild dot com and four 432 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 433 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.