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Speaker 1: This is an iHeart original. It's early twenty eighteen. John Aaron,

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Speaker 1: a morning news anchor for WTOP in Washington, is enjoying

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Speaker 1: one of the best days of his life. He's on

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Speaker 1: his honeymoon in Hawaii.

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Speaker 2: Went to the highest mountain, watched the sunrise, the whole

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Speaker 2: nine and we were just loving it. We were staying

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Speaker 2: in Maui. We had been to Honolulu before, and Maui

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Speaker 2: just blew it out of the water. We loved it.

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Speaker 1: That's John, some Honolulu shade being thrown here. But okay,

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Speaker 1: out kayaking, they see something incredible.

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Speaker 2: And then the whale surfaced like a few yards from

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Speaker 2: us and did like a tail splash and everything, And

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Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, I'm going to tell everybody about this.

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Speaker 2: What could possibly top this as a big thing that

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Speaker 2: happened on our honeymoon?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 1: Indeed, on the morning of January thirteenth, he and his

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Speaker 1: new wife, Natalia, are busy getting ready for the day.

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Speaker 1: It also happens to be Natalia's birthday. But then at

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Speaker 1: exactly eight o seven am local time, something odd happens,

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Speaker 1: something that most people would give an almost zero chance

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Speaker 1: of ever happening.

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Speaker 2: We heard our phones buzzing up a storm in the corner,

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Speaker 2: and you know, thought that there was maybe a bunch

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Speaker 2: of birthday wishes for my wife. We didn't think anything

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Speaker 2: about it. And then finally there's a PA system in

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Speaker 2: our room. Apparently who knew that kind of crackled to life,

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Speaker 2: and presumably I guess it was the hotel manager came

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Speaker 2: on the loud speaker and announced verbatim the warning that

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Speaker 2: had come over our phones.

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Speaker 1: The all caps warning sent to John's phone and read

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Speaker 1: over the public address system in their hotel is chilling

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Speaker 1: in its simplicity.

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Speaker 2: Ballistic missile threat inbound to Hawaii, Seek immediate shelter. This

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Speaker 2: is not a drill.

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Speaker 1: It's repeated a second time.

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Speaker 4: Ballistic missile threat in bound to Hawaii, Seek immediate shelter.

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Speaker 3: This is not a drill.

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Speaker 1: John and Natalia look at each other. It doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: like a prank or a hoax.

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Speaker 2: We tried to just get ourselves together as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 2: Me being kind of like a person who thinks several

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Speaker 2: steps ahead. I was like, Okay, we're gonna need water,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna need clothes, we're gonna need phone chargers, and

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Speaker 2: I'm starting to gather the stuff, and my wife goes,

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Speaker 2: let's go. You gotta get out of here. So we

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Speaker 2: made our way out of.

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Speaker 1: The room, but out of the room and to wear

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Speaker 1: to do what. All across the island, hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people are scrambling to respond to an announcement that

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Speaker 1: seems surreal. A ballistic nuclear missile is headed straight for them.

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Speaker 1: As far as they know, it's the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: John and Natalia thought they had the rest of their

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Speaker 1: lives to spend together. Right now, the rest of their

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Speaker 1: lives can be counted in minutes. Welcome to very special

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Speaker 1: episodes and iHeart original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz

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Speaker 1: and this is ten Minutes to Live.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to very special episodes. I'm Jason, She's Dana,

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Speaker 4: He's Zarin.

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Speaker 5: Good up.

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Speaker 4: Today, we're going to go back to twenty eighteen and

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Speaker 4: a very scary text message that people got all over Hawaii.

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Speaker 4: I remember this news story from the time. Same first off,

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Speaker 4: before we go so dark. Do you guys have any

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Speaker 4: Hawaii connections?

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Speaker 2: Either of you.

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Speaker 1: I traveled there with my husband. It was beautiful. We

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Speaker 1: went to Kwaii and had an amazing time. I would

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Speaker 1: love to go back.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I've had been there till recently, and now over

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Speaker 6: the last three years, I have been like five times,

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Speaker 6: and so it's become like this, like you know, second

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Speaker 6: home that I just absolutely love, and I'm always trying

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Speaker 6: to talk my wife into moving there. I'm like, how

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Speaker 6: do we move there? How do we make this happen?

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Speaker 6: But I think everybody kind of does.

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Speaker 4: I've heard this story, Dana. Maybe you've heard this because

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Speaker 4: you work in television that John Wells before each season

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Speaker 4: will bring his whole writer's room to a retreat in

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Speaker 4: Hawaii and they'll try to like plan out the whole season,

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Speaker 4: but also then just hang out in Hawaii for a

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Speaker 4: week or two.

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Speaker 1: I have not heard this, and I'm like, how do

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Speaker 1: I get a job like that?

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Speaker 4: Get on the pit, let's go. Well, maybe we can

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Speaker 4: do that with this with Zaren. You get a house

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Speaker 4: out there that can be the home base.

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Speaker 6: You guys are invited.

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Speaker 4: We'll go next season and hope we don't get any

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Speaker 4: terrifying text messages to scare us off.

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Speaker 1: The phrase this is not a drill is sometimes used

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Speaker 1: as a pun line. You might announce to your kids

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Speaker 1: it's time for dinner, and that This is not a drill,

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Speaker 1: but that sentence carries a lot of weight in Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: It's what Hawaiian civilians and stationed soldiers heard. December seventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, just before the devastating attack on Pearl Harbor.

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Speaker 5: We interrupt this program to bring you a special news polatus.

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Speaker 5: The Japanese have attack Pearl.

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Speaker 1: Harbor, Hawaii by air.

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Speaker 5: President Roosevelta just announced.

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Speaker 7: The attack also was made on all naval and military

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Speaker 7: activities on the principal island of Ohio.

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Speaker 1: When they hear it nearly eighty years later, John and

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Speaker 1: Natalia don't know where they're going. There's no playbook for this,

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Speaker 1: no in case of nuclear war pamphlet in the hotel

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Speaker 1: room drawer. They head out of the room and into

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Speaker 1: the hallway where other hotel guests are milling about in

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Speaker 1: a state of confusion.

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Speaker 2: So we got no instructions whatsoever other than to seek shelter.

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Speaker 2: We went out into the hallway and it was not

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Speaker 2: a crazy scene, but an uncomfortable scene. There were people

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Speaker 2: walking around. Some people were walking quickly, some people were

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Speaker 2: walking slowly. Some people were crying.

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Speaker 1: The scene is eerie. Some people seem resigned, others confused.

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Speaker 1: John and Natalia still don't know where to go, but

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Speaker 1: they know the upper level of a hotel isn't the

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Speaker 1: best place to be.

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Speaker 2: We went down a stairwell and there was a couple

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Speaker 2: huddled in the bottom corner of the stairwell, kind of

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Speaker 2: clutching each other, and it seemed like they were solving.

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Speaker 2: I asked some people. I said, hey, where are you going?

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Speaker 2: And the answers were I don't know.

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Speaker 1: John is in news gathering mode, asking questions, searching for answers.

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Speaker 1: He tries dialing nine to one one, but predictably the

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Speaker 1: lines are jammed, but Natalia can make a call.

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Speaker 2: My wife was on the phone with her mom when

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Speaker 2: the alert came in, and she was talking to her

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Speaker 2: as we were walking down, and I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you got to get off the phone. We got to focus,

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Speaker 2: and she like said goodbye to her mom, thinking like,

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Speaker 2: I wonder if that's the last time I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say goodbye to her.

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Speaker 1: By itself, the alert would be worrisome in any era,

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Speaker 1: panic inducing, actually, but consider the context of the time.

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Speaker 1: In early twenty eighteen, North Korean leader Kim Jong un

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Speaker 1: had been conducting nuclear weapons testing as part of ongoing

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Speaker 1: tensions between his country and the nuclear equipped United States.

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Speaker 1: He even said quote, the United States should know that

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Speaker 1: the button for nuclear weapons is on my table. Not

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Speaker 1: exactly a soothing thought, there's Hanshan. Twenty eighteen will also

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Speaker 1: mark another milestone. North Korea will have nuclear missiles that

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Speaker 1: can reach American soil.

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Speaker 7: North Korean leader Kim Jong un is warning the United

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Speaker 7: States that his country's nuclear force is now a real,

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Speaker 7: not just a threat.

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Speaker 1: If North Korea were to ever launch a strike, its

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Speaker 1: relatively close proximity to Hawaii makes the islands a prime target,

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Speaker 1: so the alert doesn't come out of nowhere. There's been

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Speaker 1: a nuclear anxiety, one reminiscent of the Cold War. John

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Speaker 1: knows this, as do most people in Hawaii, which makes

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Speaker 1: the tension that much thicker. Still in survival mode, John

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Speaker 1: figures the safest option is to find space where there

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Speaker 1: might be some kind of insulation from a nuclear blast.

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Speaker 1: However hopeless that might sound, He heads for the hotel's

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Speaker 1: lower level.

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Speaker 2: If something bad is truly happening, I want to be

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Speaker 2: in as low of a position as possible. I want

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Speaker 2: to have sturdy walls around me. I want to be

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Speaker 2: sealed off from the exterior. So I kept going down

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Speaker 2: until we found a janitorial closet, like an access hallway thing.

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Speaker 1: John pounds on the door, not sure who might open it.

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Speaker 2: Someone opened, We got inside, and we closed the door.

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Speaker 2: No one else asked to come in. And it was

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Speaker 2: us and a few other people who had already found

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Speaker 2: that place. And it had cokes, it had water, it

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Speaker 2: had a sink, it had a drain, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: this is my home for two weeks.

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Speaker 1: Two weeks was long considered the rule of thumb for

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Speaker 1: how long survivors would need to wait out the worst

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Speaker 1: radiation fallout inside a tiny room barely bigger than a

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Speaker 1: walk in closet. The guests all exchange nervous glances. No

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Speaker 1: one can really make sense of what's happening, including a

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Speaker 1: small child.

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Speaker 2: My wife's a doctor, she's been in high pressure situations too,

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Speaker 2: so we were both very I think, measured in the

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Speaker 2: whole thing. She actually comforted one of the people in

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Speaker 2: our little shelter. It was a younger girl and she

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Speaker 2: was very shaken up. My wife said, like, it's okay,

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Speaker 2: it's my birthday. That gets me because she kind of

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Speaker 2: brought this poor girl back down to Earth when nothing

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Speaker 2: else was making her feel better.

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Speaker 1: On Kawaii, part time resident Holly Dubay is packing up.

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Speaker 1: She's getting ready to return to Texas with her boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: When their cell phones buzz they see the alert. Her

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Speaker 1: first thought is that she needs to have some way

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Speaker 1: for her and her boyfriend to be identified.

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Speaker 3: So I said, let's put our fanny packs on and

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Speaker 3: put our IDs in there in case our torsos are found,

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Speaker 3: and I'll know we didn't make it.

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Speaker 1: That's Holly.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: I remember there was one room on this resort where

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Speaker 3: we were staying. There was one room that had four walls,

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Speaker 3: no windows, and a pretty solid door. And I said,

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Speaker 3: let's go to that room. And that was the best

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Speaker 3: idea that we came up with. So myjob and in

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Speaker 3: my silly fanny pack, you know, with my I d

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Speaker 3: in it and saying with my boyfriend, we started running

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Speaker 3: through the resort.

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Speaker 1: As they head for the room, Holly makes a call

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Speaker 1: to her two sons. One doesn't pick up, the other does.

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Speaker 3: I said to him, Alex, there's a bomb headed for

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Speaker 3: Hawaii right now. When he thought I was kidding, although

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm not a kidder typically, you know,

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Speaker 3: he said Mom, Mom, No, there isn't. Yes, there is, Alec.

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Speaker 3: We just got an official notice from the state of

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Speaker 3: Hawaii that there's a bomb headed for Hawaii right now.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's true. Mom, Alex, I can't argue

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Speaker 3: with you right now. I'm just calling to tell you

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Speaker 3: that I love you and I love your brother. You've

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Speaker 3: been the most wonderful part of my life. I'm so

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Speaker 3: proud of both of you. And if I don't make it,

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Speaker 3: you'll know what happened.

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Speaker 1: Inside the windowless room, other guests are standing shoulder to shoulder,

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Speaker 1: staring into their phones.

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Speaker 3: Again extremely so. And my boyfriend and I went in

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Speaker 3: there and I was standing there just thinking, is it

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Speaker 3: going to be quick? I hope it is. I hope

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Speaker 3: it doesn't hurt. I hope that it just takes me

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Speaker 3: out immediately. I don't want to have any I don't

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Speaker 3: want to live. I've been bomb by a nuclear bomb.

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Speaker 1: Other scenes play out across the island. At the University

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Speaker 1: of Hawaii, hundreds of students begin running across campus, heading

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Speaker 1: for shelter. In a classroom this morning, just after eighty

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Speaker 1: m people in Hawaii were running for their lives. In

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Speaker 1: a video that will go viral. A man lowers his

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Speaker 1: children down through a manhole cover in the street into

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Speaker 1: the sewer, thinking the safest place for them is underground.

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Speaker 1: Some shoppers in stores begin lying down in aisles. Other stores,

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Speaker 1: like a Walmart, refuse to admit to anyone seeking shelter,

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Speaker 1: so does a UH and a convenience store. Police are

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Speaker 1: getting stopped in the street and asked for the location

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Speaker 1: of the nearest shelter. They don't know what to say.

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Speaker 1: At this point. Most of them know as much as

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Speaker 1: civilians do nothing in what's likely the strangest place to be.

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Speaker 1: Tourists at a Pearl Harbor remembrance tour at the USS

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Speaker 1: Arizona Memorial get the alert while watching a video about

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Speaker 1: the nineteen forty one attack on Honolulu. A man named

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Speaker 1: James Shields gets the alert and starts feeling a tightness

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Speaker 1: in his chest. He falls over on the beach, his

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00:13:49,482 --> 00:13:53,882
Speaker 1: girlfriend frantically calling for help. When he arrives at the hospital,

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Speaker 1: he's told he's having a heart attack. It's not just

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Speaker 1: cell phones. People at home, watching television or driving with

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Speaker 1: their radios on feel the same surge of panic. If

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Speaker 1: you are out door, dor seek immediate shelter in a building.

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00:14:09,842 --> 00:14:13,962
Speaker 1: Remain indoors, well away from windows. If you are driving,

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Speaker 1: pull safely to the side of the road and seek

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Speaker 1: shelter in a building while lying on the floor. We'll

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Speaker 1: announce when the threat has ended. The broadcast message ends

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Speaker 1: with the now familiar clarification, this is not a drill.

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Speaker 1: In almost each and every case, from John and Holly

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Speaker 1: to people on the beach, their only impulse is to

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Speaker 1: seek cover. Many don't know if they should even bother

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Speaker 1: or what incoming means. An hour a minute, as time

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00:14:47,162 --> 00:14:52,442
Speaker 1: ticks by, many do notice one thing. There's no retraction,

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Speaker 1: no follow up, that this was all a mix up

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00:14:55,922 --> 00:15:00,442
Speaker 1: or mistake. There's no reason to believe the apocalypse is

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Speaker 1: being canceled.

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Speaker 3: Of course, your mind is racing in that situation. Is

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Speaker 3: it real? Is it not real? Is this a hole books?

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00:15:08,162 --> 00:15:21,242
Speaker 1: As it turns out, it's none of those things. The

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Speaker 1: State Warning Point of the Hawaii Emergency Management Agency or

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Speaker 1: high EMA, is the island alert and response unit for

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Speaker 1: disasters both natural and man made. Staffed twenty four hours

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Speaker 1: a day, seven days a week, hi EMA is charged

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Speaker 1: with keeping people up to date. Now in the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of Kim Jong UN's saber rattling nuclear tests. The agency

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Speaker 1: has been ramping up its missile alert drills. They know

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Speaker 1: Hawaii would be a prime target for any attack on

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Speaker 1: the US. In a real nuclear strike, the North American

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Speaker 1: Air Defense Command, or NORAD, would detect incoming missiles, depending

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Speaker 1: on where they were headed. NORAD would ultimately notify the

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Speaker 1: appropriate watchdog group for Hawaii. That would be the Pacific Command,

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Speaker 1: which would then alert high email. They in turn would

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Speaker 1: notify the public via the state's emergency alert system, which

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00:16:24,922 --> 00:16:29,202
Speaker 1: beams out warnings to television, radio, cell phones, and even

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Speaker 1: highway signs. All of this is accomplished in a software

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00:16:33,842 --> 00:16:38,802
Speaker 1: program called alert Sense, featuring a drop down menu. It's

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Speaker 1: like the kind you use to select your state when

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Speaker 1: filling out an online form. For a drill, the worker

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00:16:45,762 --> 00:16:50,842
Speaker 1: responds by selecting test. Another worker starts a countdown timer

282
00:16:50,922 --> 00:16:55,202
Speaker 1: to impact. Some other steps are recorded on a checklist,

283
00:16:55,602 --> 00:16:59,482
Speaker 1: and then the exercise is over. This drill has been

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Speaker 1: done many times since North Korea's aggressive actions, but the

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00:17:04,562 --> 00:17:11,962
Speaker 1: morning of January thirteenth is a little different. Unlike the others,

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Speaker 1: this one is unscheduled. Second workers are notified of the

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00:17:17,202 --> 00:17:22,322
Speaker 1: drill via telephone not in person also unusual, and the

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Speaker 1: office is playing a recording, meaning the voice communicating the

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00:17:27,402 --> 00:17:32,562
Speaker 1: fake threat is an unfamiliar one. The person announcing the

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Speaker 1: drill is supposed to say exercise three times, both before

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Speaker 1: and after the command, so it might go something like, exercise, exercise, exercise.

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Speaker 1: A ballistic missile is headed our way. Exercise, exercise, exercise.

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Speaker 1: This is to make absolutely, positively certain everyone understands it

294
00:17:55,722 --> 00:18:00,522
Speaker 1: is indeed a drill. But one of the workers on

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00:18:00,682 --> 00:18:05,842
Speaker 1: shift that morning doesn't hear the word exercise over and over.

296
00:18:06,322 --> 00:18:10,802
Speaker 1: Maybe the phone connection is bad, or perhaps someone had

297
00:18:10,922 --> 00:18:14,482
Speaker 1: the person on speakerphone and then picked up a receiver,

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00:18:14,642 --> 00:18:18,962
Speaker 1: cutting them off. No one is exactly sure, so this

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00:18:19,082 --> 00:18:22,922
Speaker 1: employee hovers his mouse cursor over the drop down menu.

300
00:18:23,562 --> 00:18:28,362
Speaker 1: There are two options. Click test and you'll satisfy the drill.

301
00:18:28,922 --> 00:18:33,762
Speaker 1: Click missile alert and you'll notify hundreds of thousands of

302
00:18:33,802 --> 00:18:38,082
Speaker 1: people that nuclear winter is imminent. Hawaii is the only

303
00:18:38,202 --> 00:18:41,762
Speaker 1: state with a pre written alert like this, thanks to

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00:18:41,842 --> 00:18:46,162
Speaker 1: its proximity to North Korea. The employee, who has not

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00:18:46,322 --> 00:18:50,482
Speaker 1: heard the word exercise and is instead fixated on the

306
00:18:50,522 --> 00:18:55,042
Speaker 1: phrase this is not a drill, clicks the second there's

307
00:18:55,242 --> 00:19:00,082
Speaker 1: just one safeguard. The software asks the employee if they're sure.

308
00:19:01,162 --> 00:19:06,682
Speaker 1: He clicks yes, and suddenly cell phones begin to vibrate,

309
00:19:07,162 --> 00:19:11,322
Speaker 1: people picking them up and eyeing them with confusion, followed

310
00:19:11,442 --> 00:19:16,482
Speaker 1: rapidly by fear. Inside hi EMA, employee cell phones begin

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00:19:16,642 --> 00:19:21,682
Speaker 1: going off too. It's a symphony of catastrophe.

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Speaker 3: Olimtic missile threat in bound to Hawaii seekermedian shelter.

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Speaker 6: This is not a drill.

314
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Speaker 1: Like the others. Cynthia Lazarov got her notice of doomsday

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Speaker 1: on a cell phone.

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00:19:36,882 --> 00:19:40,842
Speaker 7: So it's kind of an interesting little sidebar here because

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00:19:40,962 --> 00:19:45,602
Speaker 7: my phone was actually on silent that our nephew was visiting,

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Speaker 7: and he came running in and held his phone up

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Speaker 7: and he was panting. He had run quite a distance

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Speaker 7: to get to us. He had been doing i think

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00:19:54,282 --> 00:19:57,482
Speaker 7: yoga down near the beach and it had come through,

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Speaker 7: and that's how I found out about it.

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Speaker 1: There's a slight delay in Cynthia and her husband Bruce

324
00:20:05,682 --> 00:20:08,762
Speaker 1: getting the alert on their phone, which gives her a

325
00:20:08,802 --> 00:20:12,602
Speaker 1: fleeting bit of hope that maybe it was a prank

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00:20:12,922 --> 00:20:18,242
Speaker 1: or hoax, but then her screen lights up. Unlike many others,

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Speaker 1: Cynthia is able to put the crisis in more context,

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Speaker 1: She's a documentary filmmaker who has spent decades examining and

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Speaker 1: participating in US and Russia relations pertaining to nuclear weapons.

330
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Speaker 1: She's keenly aware of the omnipresent threat of the world

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Speaker 1: taking a sudden, sharp turn toward a global conflict. In fact,

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Speaker 1: she had just spoken to former Secretary of Defense William Perry.

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Speaker 7: And he said to me that today we're at a

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Speaker 7: greater risk of some sort of a nuclear catastrophe than

335
00:20:55,242 --> 00:20:58,162
Speaker 7: we were during the Cold War, and that most people

336
00:20:58,202 --> 00:21:02,122
Speaker 7: are blissfully unaware of this danger. That because we don't

337
00:21:02,202 --> 00:21:05,482
Speaker 7: understand the danger, he said, we make no serious attempt

338
00:21:05,762 --> 00:21:08,522
Speaker 7: to repair the hostility between the United States and Russia.

339
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Speaker 7: So we're allowing ourselves to sleepwalk into another catastrophe. We

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Speaker 7: must wake up. So for me, at that moment, with

341
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Speaker 7: my background and expertise, I realized that I'd been sleepwalking

342
00:21:22,362 --> 00:21:24,442
Speaker 7: myself since the end of the Cold War, and that

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00:21:24,562 --> 00:21:28,082
Speaker 7: was a sort of devastating personal revelation for me.

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Speaker 1: Living in Kawai, the immediacy of the nuclear threat is

345
00:21:33,002 --> 00:21:37,602
Speaker 1: like nothing she's ever experienced. It's largely something she's examined

346
00:21:37,602 --> 00:21:41,722
Speaker 1: in the abstract but because of her knowledge, she knows

347
00:21:41,842 --> 00:21:44,882
Speaker 1: how long it might take to get a ballistic missile

348
00:21:44,882 --> 00:21:49,162
Speaker 1: from North Korea to Honolulu. Friends are calling to ask

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Speaker 1: her exactly.

350
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Speaker 7: That, and I said, well, I'm not sure. If it's

351
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Speaker 7: a submarine, it could be very nothing. I mean, we

352
00:21:54,362 --> 00:21:56,682
Speaker 7: don't know. I mean, submarine could be very fast in

353
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Speaker 7: terms of when I spoke to them and how many

354
00:21:58,762 --> 00:22:01,722
Speaker 7: minutes had already unfolded. And I said, you know, it

355
00:22:01,722 --> 00:22:04,322
Speaker 7: could take twenty five minutes. If it's a launch from

356
00:22:04,682 --> 00:22:06,882
Speaker 7: North Korea, it could take twenty five minutes from them.

357
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Speaker 7: So it all depended on where it was coming from.

358
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Speaker 7: But I knew that it was a matter of you know,

359
00:22:12,122 --> 00:22:14,882
Speaker 7: within that window of time, it's been a matter of minutes.

360
00:22:15,042 --> 00:22:18,082
Speaker 7: But I also lost track of time.

361
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Speaker 1: And she also knows about radiation. There is precious little

362
00:22:23,402 --> 00:22:25,642
Speaker 1: she can do about that, but she does grab some

363
00:22:25,802 --> 00:22:27,562
Speaker 1: clothing to use as protection.

364
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Speaker 7: So I grabbed a bag, a woven bag, and I

365
00:22:30,922 --> 00:22:33,682
Speaker 7: started throwing things in it. I threw in my phone,

366
00:22:33,842 --> 00:22:37,722
Speaker 7: my phone charger, my computer and my computer charger, my purse,

367
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Speaker 7: my passport, and then I grabbed a shawl to wrap

368
00:22:41,922 --> 00:22:45,162
Speaker 7: around my face in case of radiation. And then a

369
00:22:45,202 --> 00:22:48,642
Speaker 7: pair of leggings for the same reason, and then I

370
00:22:48,682 --> 00:22:50,842
Speaker 7: thought food and water.

371
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Speaker 1: She and her husband, Bruce, also a nuclear expert, decide

372
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Speaker 1: to seek shelter at a friend's property.

373
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Speaker 7: That's when I began to think, Well, the first thing

374
00:23:05,482 --> 00:23:08,562
Speaker 7: was well where do we go? And we decided to

375
00:23:08,602 --> 00:23:12,482
Speaker 7: meet and shelter on a neighbor's property who has a

376
00:23:12,602 --> 00:23:17,842
Speaker 7: meditation cave because it was the most sealed environment that

377
00:23:17,882 --> 00:23:19,602
Speaker 7: we knew we could get to quickly.

378
00:23:20,322 --> 00:23:22,482
Speaker 1: And then it was well, what do I take with me?

379
00:23:23,722 --> 00:23:25,802
Speaker 7: And I looked down at my phone and it had

380
00:23:25,842 --> 00:23:27,762
Speaker 7: twelve percent charge, and I thought, what am I going

381
00:23:27,842 --> 00:23:28,042
Speaker 7: to do?

382
00:23:29,322 --> 00:23:32,882
Speaker 1: Cars are speeding upwards of one hundred miles an hour.

383
00:23:33,402 --> 00:23:37,802
Speaker 1: Other cars cross the median, some are pulled over. Everyone

384
00:23:38,042 --> 00:23:41,202
Speaker 1: is in a hurry to get somewhere, most not knowing

385
00:23:41,322 --> 00:23:45,842
Speaker 1: where that somewhere should be. Like many others, Cynthia has

386
00:23:45,962 --> 00:23:50,602
Speaker 1: family on the mainland, her oldest daughter, family that may

387
00:23:50,642 --> 00:23:54,602
Speaker 1: not have any idea what's happening, and family that may

388
00:23:54,602 --> 00:23:57,962
Speaker 1: not fully understand why she needs to speak to them

389
00:23:58,042 --> 00:24:00,882
Speaker 1: for what she believes is the last time.

390
00:24:01,202 --> 00:24:03,842
Speaker 7: So I parked the car as close as I could

391
00:24:04,162 --> 00:24:06,842
Speaker 7: to the steps to the cave. And I started running

392
00:24:07,082 --> 00:24:10,922
Speaker 7: towards them. It was still ringing and ringing, and just

393
00:24:10,962 --> 00:24:13,242
Speaker 7: as I got to the foot of the steps to

394
00:24:13,282 --> 00:24:17,482
Speaker 7: the cave, she picked up and I said, Mackenzie, I

395
00:24:17,482 --> 00:24:19,282
Speaker 7: don't know if you've heard, but we've all got this

396
00:24:19,362 --> 00:24:21,122
Speaker 7: message on our cell phone. It's going to be hit

397
00:24:21,162 --> 00:24:23,682
Speaker 7: by a nuclear missile and we're going to shelter in

398
00:24:23,722 --> 00:24:26,842
Speaker 7: the cave if we can, and I'll call you if

399
00:24:26,842 --> 00:24:29,322
Speaker 7: I can from the cave. But I just want you

400
00:24:29,362 --> 00:24:32,002
Speaker 7: to know that I love you, and she said, Mom,

401
00:24:32,602 --> 00:24:37,602
Speaker 7: I love you too. At that moment, time stopped for

402
00:24:37,722 --> 00:24:41,802
Speaker 7: me and I just stood there frozen. It was the

403
00:24:41,842 --> 00:24:43,842
Speaker 7: moment that it all became the most real for me,

404
00:24:44,722 --> 00:24:48,682
Speaker 7: and I thought, am I ever going to hear her

405
00:24:48,762 --> 00:24:49,322
Speaker 7: voice again?

406
00:24:51,482 --> 00:24:56,202
Speaker 1: There was another thought, if Cynthia could survive, would she

407
00:24:56,282 --> 00:25:01,042
Speaker 1: want to? Today's nuclear arsenals are a thousand times more

408
00:25:01,122 --> 00:25:04,442
Speaker 1: powerful than the bombs dropped in nineteen forty five.

409
00:25:05,122 --> 00:25:08,842
Speaker 7: Depending on how far I would be away from the epicenter,

410
00:25:09,042 --> 00:25:13,522
Speaker 7: et cetera, if it struck anywhere nearby, first of all,

411
00:25:13,562 --> 00:25:16,842
Speaker 7: the chances of survival would be minimal. And then if

412
00:25:16,842 --> 00:25:21,442
Speaker 7: I did survive, there's the understanding of based on what

413
00:25:21,482 --> 00:25:25,042
Speaker 7: we know what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just the

414
00:25:25,122 --> 00:25:29,602
Speaker 7: horrors of what happened to the people who immediately survived

415
00:25:29,602 --> 00:25:33,882
Speaker 7: but were suffering from radiation, sickness, et cetera. One of

416
00:25:33,882 --> 00:25:38,642
Speaker 7: the Hibakasha survivors of Hiroshima sets to go. Thurlough describes

417
00:25:38,802 --> 00:25:40,682
Speaker 7: them as you know, when she was a child, She

418
00:25:40,762 --> 00:25:43,442
Speaker 7: was a school child who survived, and she saw what

419
00:25:43,522 --> 00:25:46,842
Speaker 7: she thought were ghosts, you know, with skin falling off

420
00:25:46,882 --> 00:25:50,322
Speaker 7: their bodies, and I mean everything you can imagine.

421
00:25:50,522 --> 00:25:51,362
Speaker 8: Just horrific.

422
00:25:52,242 --> 00:25:56,722
Speaker 7: So I thought I probably wouldn't be able to survive,

423
00:25:57,282 --> 00:26:01,602
Speaker 7: and that I probably wouldn't want to survive. I mean Khrushchev,

424
00:26:01,722 --> 00:26:05,242
Speaker 7: the Soviet leader, said that the living would envy the

425
00:26:05,242 --> 00:26:07,562
Speaker 7: dead after a nuclear war.

426
00:26:11,962 --> 00:26:16,682
Speaker 1: At Haima, workers realize the alert has gone external. At

427
00:26:16,722 --> 00:26:19,682
Speaker 1: this point, you'd think there would be something like an

428
00:26:19,802 --> 00:26:24,202
Speaker 1: undo button, another single mouse click that could retract the

429
00:26:24,242 --> 00:26:27,042
Speaker 1: alert and send out a notice that it was just

430
00:26:27,162 --> 00:26:31,082
Speaker 1: a drill, But the software doesn't have that. There are

431
00:26:31,242 --> 00:26:36,242
Speaker 1: just two options, fake alert and real alert. The employee

432
00:26:36,242 --> 00:26:39,282
Speaker 1: who pressed the button or clicked the drop down menu

433
00:26:39,802 --> 00:26:44,002
Speaker 1: is frozen in place. Other employees scramble to take over

434
00:26:44,082 --> 00:26:48,282
Speaker 1: his terminal. While they can't take back the message, they

435
00:26:48,322 --> 00:26:51,882
Speaker 1: can prevent it from being sent out over and over again.

436
00:26:52,402 --> 00:26:55,162
Speaker 1: If someone had their phone off or is out of

437
00:26:55,282 --> 00:26:58,442
Speaker 1: cell range, then canceling it means they won't get the

438
00:26:58,482 --> 00:27:01,962
Speaker 1: message when they turn it back on. That's better than nothing,

439
00:27:02,642 --> 00:27:06,602
Speaker 1: but actually reversing course and letting people know they're not

440
00:27:06,762 --> 00:27:11,242
Speaker 1: in danger of nuclear annihilation is proving to be challenging.

441
00:27:12,042 --> 00:27:16,282
Speaker 1: Within minutes, Haima is able to call the Honolulu Police

442
00:27:16,642 --> 00:27:20,562
Speaker 1: and notify them of the error. While that allows cops

443
00:27:20,602 --> 00:27:24,842
Speaker 1: to inform people individually and through the bullhorns on their

444
00:27:24,882 --> 00:27:28,762
Speaker 1: patrol cars, the police don't have enough reach on social

445
00:27:28,842 --> 00:27:32,762
Speaker 1: media to spread the word quickly. Nine to one one

446
00:27:33,002 --> 00:27:37,122
Speaker 1: is overwhelmed. Instead of getting a few hundred calls that

447
00:27:37,242 --> 00:27:40,922
Speaker 1: time of day the norm, they get over seven thousand,

448
00:27:41,122 --> 00:27:45,482
Speaker 1: five hundred. Instead of gushing out via a single channel,

449
00:27:45,922 --> 00:27:50,562
Speaker 1: the correction trickles out and relatively few people see it.

450
00:27:51,242 --> 00:27:54,122
Speaker 1: Even when they do, how do they know what to

451
00:27:54,162 --> 00:27:59,442
Speaker 1: even believe there's a bigger problem. HIMA is under the impression,

452
00:27:59,682 --> 00:28:03,602
Speaker 1: the mistaken impression, that they need to reach out to

453
00:28:03,722 --> 00:28:09,202
Speaker 1: the Federal Emergency Management Agency or FEMA for guidance on

454
00:28:09,362 --> 00:28:14,402
Speaker 1: releasing a retraction. There are different types of recalls, and

455
00:28:14,442 --> 00:28:17,242
Speaker 1: they want to be sure they use the right one.

456
00:28:17,722 --> 00:28:21,002
Speaker 1: They actually don't need to confer with FEMA on this,

457
00:28:21,482 --> 00:28:24,882
Speaker 1: but they think it's the prudent thing to do. But

458
00:28:25,202 --> 00:28:30,282
Speaker 1: trying to establish contact with FEMA wastes more time, which

459
00:28:30,362 --> 00:28:34,362
Speaker 1: is already flying by. By the time FEMA gets on

460
00:28:34,442 --> 00:28:38,682
Speaker 1: the line, it's eight thirty am, twenty three minutes after

461
00:28:38,722 --> 00:28:43,802
Speaker 1: the alert had been sent. There's social media. State Governor

462
00:28:44,002 --> 00:28:47,802
Speaker 1: David Ega opens his Twitter app or what's now known

463
00:28:47,882 --> 00:28:52,882
Speaker 1: as x but Ega has a problem. He can't remember

464
00:28:52,922 --> 00:28:57,082
Speaker 1: his password. What could be an official channel for getting

465
00:28:57,162 --> 00:29:00,522
Speaker 1: the word out that the alert is false isn't going

466
00:29:00,602 --> 00:29:05,762
Speaker 1: to work for another fifteen minutes. HIEMA employees can post

467
00:29:05,922 --> 00:29:09,762
Speaker 1: to the agency's social media accounts, but not everyone is

468
00:29:09,802 --> 00:29:13,682
Speaker 1: going to think to check those pages. The same holds

469
00:29:13,722 --> 00:29:19,162
Speaker 1: true of local news. At eight nineteen, Hawaii News Now

470
00:29:19,242 --> 00:29:23,002
Speaker 1: is able to confirm the message was sent out in error,

471
00:29:23,442 --> 00:29:26,802
Speaker 1: but only to people with the Hawaii News Now app

472
00:29:26,882 --> 00:29:31,162
Speaker 1: on their phones. It only adds to the chorus of confusion.

473
00:29:32,402 --> 00:29:36,682
Speaker 1: Haima has one card left to play, create on the

474
00:29:36,682 --> 00:29:42,042
Speaker 1: fly a retraction message in the alert sense program. That's

475
00:29:42,082 --> 00:29:46,122
Speaker 1: the channel reaching the greatest number of people and the quickest,

476
00:29:46,762 --> 00:29:50,402
Speaker 1: but that message can only be drafted and sent via

477
00:29:50,482 --> 00:29:55,322
Speaker 1: another portal. So Jima waits as an employee works remotely

478
00:29:55,842 --> 00:30:00,322
Speaker 1: manually programming an all clear message. This will take a

479
00:30:00,522 --> 00:30:07,642
Speaker 1: relative eternity of about fourteen minutes. Across Hawaii, people are

480
00:30:07,682 --> 00:30:11,682
Speaker 1: continuing to seek what shelter they can. Some are climbing

481
00:30:11,722 --> 00:30:16,282
Speaker 1: into bathtubs. Others are spotting fallout shelters left over from

482
00:30:16,322 --> 00:30:20,482
Speaker 1: the Cold War, wrongly assuming that they lead to safe harbor,

483
00:30:20,962 --> 00:30:23,802
Speaker 1: but virtually all of those signs are relics that lead

484
00:30:23,882 --> 00:30:29,282
Speaker 1: to shelters long since repurposed or closed up. As Hiimat works,

485
00:30:29,682 --> 00:30:32,282
Speaker 1: much of the island is wondering what to do with

486
00:30:32,402 --> 00:30:36,562
Speaker 1: the few minutes they have remaining. Cynthia is one of them.

487
00:30:36,922 --> 00:30:40,242
Speaker 1: She gets off the phone with her daughter, jogging toward

488
00:30:40,282 --> 00:30:42,562
Speaker 1: the cave, she sees her friend smiling.

489
00:30:43,042 --> 00:30:47,122
Speaker 7: I ran up the hill to the cave, and as

490
00:30:47,162 --> 00:30:50,122
Speaker 7: I got to the door of the cave, it opened,

491
00:30:50,642 --> 00:30:54,082
Speaker 7: and it was my neighbor, Colleen, and she walked out smiling,

492
00:30:54,322 --> 00:30:56,962
Speaker 7: and she said it was a false alarm. It took

493
00:30:56,962 --> 00:31:01,162
Speaker 7: our government thirty eight minutes to send a message out

494
00:31:01,922 --> 00:31:05,482
Speaker 7: on our cell phones announcing that it was a false alarm.

495
00:31:05,962 --> 00:31:09,682
Speaker 1: In the closet, John Aaron gets the same message.

496
00:31:10,002 --> 00:31:12,282
Speaker 2: We were there for like the full you know, thirty

497
00:31:12,282 --> 00:31:15,202
Speaker 2: plus minutes, just sitting and waiting to see what was

498
00:31:15,242 --> 00:31:17,202
Speaker 2: going to happen. And then I don't know if someone

499
00:31:17,282 --> 00:31:19,602
Speaker 2: knocked on the door or if someone all of a

500
00:31:19,642 --> 00:31:22,522
Speaker 2: sudden got a little bit of cell service, but we heard,

501
00:31:22,562 --> 00:31:25,362
Speaker 2: you know, hey, we got the all clear, and you know,

502
00:31:25,442 --> 00:31:27,842
Speaker 2: it was just the biggest relief washing over you.

503
00:31:27,842 --> 00:31:30,482
Speaker 1: After that, and so does Holly Dubey.

504
00:31:30,922 --> 00:31:33,322
Speaker 3: Then we got a text over our phone again or

505
00:31:33,322 --> 00:31:35,922
Speaker 3: an alert over our phone that said this was a

506
00:31:35,922 --> 00:31:39,762
Speaker 3: false alert. There is no nuclear bomb. Repeat, there is

507
00:31:39,882 --> 00:31:44,482
Speaker 3: no nuclear bomb. You're not in danger, and everybody just

508
00:31:44,522 --> 00:31:46,122
Speaker 3: sort of quietly dispersed.

509
00:31:46,762 --> 00:31:51,042
Speaker 1: The hi EMA employee working on the message has finally succeeded.

510
00:31:51,602 --> 00:31:55,362
Speaker 1: The alert read there is no missile threat or danger

511
00:31:55,402 --> 00:32:00,122
Speaker 1: to the state of Hawaii. Repeat false alarm. Highway signs

512
00:32:00,202 --> 00:32:05,082
Speaker 1: offer the same information missile alert in error, there is

513
00:32:05,362 --> 00:32:09,682
Speaker 1: no threat. Took thirty eight minutes from the time the

514
00:32:09,722 --> 00:32:13,522
Speaker 1: alert was sent out to the time the correction was made.

515
00:32:14,202 --> 00:32:17,722
Speaker 1: Thirty eight minutes for an untold number of people to

516
00:32:17,882 --> 00:32:22,402
Speaker 1: confront their mortality, say goodbye to their families, and wait

517
00:32:22,442 --> 00:32:27,042
Speaker 1: for impact. What the people in Hawaii experienced was human

518
00:32:27,242 --> 00:32:32,202
Speaker 1: error turned into human terror. But in the nuclear age,

519
00:32:32,322 --> 00:32:36,682
Speaker 1: it's not unheard of, and worse, it's likely to happen again.

520
00:32:48,802 --> 00:32:53,282
Speaker 1: Everyone knows at least something about the Cuban missile crisis,

521
00:32:53,402 --> 00:32:56,682
Speaker 1: which brought the threat of nuclear destruction to the feet

522
00:32:56,802 --> 00:32:58,842
Speaker 1: of President John F. Kennedy.

523
00:32:59,522 --> 00:33:04,842
Speaker 5: This government has promised has maintained the closest surveillance of

524
00:33:04,882 --> 00:33:08,202
Speaker 5: the Soviet military build up on the island of Cuba.

525
00:33:09,162 --> 00:33:13,722
Speaker 5: Within the past week, unmistakable evidence has established the fact

526
00:33:14,522 --> 00:33:18,522
Speaker 5: that a series of offensive missile sites is now in

527
00:33:18,562 --> 00:33:21,202
Speaker 5: preparation on that imprisoned island.

528
00:33:22,362 --> 00:33:27,242
Speaker 1: When nuclear superpowers have very real, very human people at

529
00:33:27,322 --> 00:33:32,042
Speaker 1: the helm, mistakes can be made. And when you realize

530
00:33:32,042 --> 00:33:36,562
Speaker 1: that it's almost a miracle. What happened in Hawaii doesn't

531
00:33:36,602 --> 00:33:37,722
Speaker 1: happen more often.

532
00:33:38,202 --> 00:33:41,602
Speaker 8: And my favorite, there was one in Chicago. The White Sox,

533
00:33:41,842 --> 00:33:45,762
Speaker 8: I believe, had won the pennant and the fire Marshal

534
00:33:46,122 --> 00:33:48,562
Speaker 8: was also the person in charge of the air raid siren,

535
00:33:48,802 --> 00:33:51,842
Speaker 8: and he thought it would be good fun to celebrate

536
00:33:51,922 --> 00:33:54,642
Speaker 8: this by setting off all the air raid sirens and

537
00:33:55,122 --> 00:33:57,162
Speaker 8: indicating that nuclear attack is about to begin.

538
00:33:59,602 --> 00:34:04,482
Speaker 1: That's Alex Wellerstein. Alex is a Harvard educated historian of

539
00:34:04,562 --> 00:34:09,922
Speaker 1: science at the Stephens Institute of Technology. He's a nuclear historian,

540
00:34:10,482 --> 00:34:14,882
Speaker 1: and for him, the Hawaii incident is well kind of inevitable.

541
00:34:15,642 --> 00:34:19,882
Speaker 8: If you have a sufficiently complicated technical system and it

542
00:34:19,922 --> 00:34:23,762
Speaker 8: involves humans and interacting with it, and it can have

543
00:34:23,882 --> 00:34:28,922
Speaker 8: technical errors of any sort, especially ones that are involve

544
00:34:30,122 --> 00:34:33,482
Speaker 8: sensors that are pointed at the sky and things like this,

545
00:34:34,002 --> 00:34:36,802
Speaker 8: it's inevitable that you'll have some level of error.

546
00:34:38,562 --> 00:34:43,002
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, nora AD computers began lighting up

547
00:34:43,082 --> 00:34:48,562
Speaker 1: with information that prompted defence workers to sweat profusely. It

548
00:34:48,642 --> 00:34:53,162
Speaker 1: looked as though the Soviet Union had launched nuclear weapons

549
00:34:53,522 --> 00:34:59,842
Speaker 1: directly at the US, seemingly intending to disable US defense capabilities.

550
00:35:00,402 --> 00:35:05,002
Speaker 1: Fighter planes were launched before satellite data was retrieved, indicating

551
00:35:05,082 --> 00:35:09,282
Speaker 1: it was a false alarm. Someone had mistakenly inserted a

552
00:35:09,402 --> 00:35:14,242
Speaker 1: training tape into the computer systems. A similar incident took

553
00:35:14,282 --> 00:35:19,082
Speaker 1: place in nineteen eighty when US defense computers warned that

554
00:35:19,202 --> 00:35:24,202
Speaker 1: Russia had dispatched more nuclear missiles quickly one could see

555
00:35:24,202 --> 00:35:27,362
Speaker 1: a pattern in the data. It went from two missiles

556
00:35:27,402 --> 00:35:32,002
Speaker 1: to two hundred than zero. It was glitchy, and again

557
00:35:32,122 --> 00:35:35,402
Speaker 1: fighter planes were in the air, but it was an error,

558
00:35:35,722 --> 00:35:40,162
Speaker 1: this time coming from a faulty computer chip. Russia isn't

559
00:35:40,242 --> 00:35:44,322
Speaker 1: exempt from scares either. In nineteen eighty three, the country's

560
00:35:44,402 --> 00:35:49,042
Speaker 1: version of an early warning system detected five missiles coming

561
00:35:49,082 --> 00:35:54,202
Speaker 1: from the United States. The monitoring worker, Stanislov Petrov, could

562
00:35:54,202 --> 00:35:57,962
Speaker 1: have acted on it and could have conceivably started a

563
00:35:58,002 --> 00:36:02,522
Speaker 1: world war, but as Petrov would later explain, he didn't

564
00:36:02,562 --> 00:36:06,922
Speaker 1: think the US would kickstart armageddon with only five missiles.

565
00:36:07,722 --> 00:36:11,602
Speaker 1: Is common sense. May have spared us all, but these

566
00:36:11,642 --> 00:36:16,642
Speaker 1: are examples of internal errors. Public facing ones like Hawaii's

567
00:36:17,002 --> 00:36:21,722
Speaker 1: are vastly different in that they cause widespread panic and misinformation.

568
00:36:22,482 --> 00:36:27,562
Speaker 1: These are thankfully rare, but Americans have endured them before.

569
00:36:28,122 --> 00:36:31,362
Speaker 1: In the late nineteen fifties, a number of false alarms

570
00:36:31,402 --> 00:36:35,882
Speaker 1: went off in American cities, including that World Series flubb.

571
00:36:36,522 --> 00:36:39,602
Speaker 1: In each case, only a quarter or so of people

572
00:36:39,722 --> 00:36:46,882
Speaker 1: took the alerts seriously. Ideally, these events would not happen

573
00:36:47,002 --> 00:36:51,922
Speaker 1: completely in vain. They provide priceless data on how people

574
00:36:52,002 --> 00:36:56,162
Speaker 1: respond at this level of crisis, but as Alex points out,

575
00:36:56,682 --> 00:36:59,682
Speaker 1: data collection around them has generally been poor.

576
00:37:00,122 --> 00:37:04,202
Speaker 8: So this accident it's not a good thing, but it

577
00:37:04,242 --> 00:37:09,922
Speaker 8: does create conditions that allow us to answer questions we

578
00:37:09,962 --> 00:37:12,802
Speaker 8: can otherwise answer, like what would happen if we send

579
00:37:12,842 --> 00:37:15,202
Speaker 8: everybody a text telling them that a nuclear missile wasn't

580
00:37:15,202 --> 00:37:18,602
Speaker 8: coming my senses? It wasn't studied as closely at the

581
00:37:18,602 --> 00:37:19,722
Speaker 8: time as it should have been.

582
00:37:20,322 --> 00:37:25,602
Speaker 1: Researchers did make some discoveries, like how people respond to

583
00:37:25,682 --> 00:37:30,762
Speaker 1: these alerts can depend on demographics. Younger people tend to

584
00:37:30,842 --> 00:37:33,962
Speaker 1: be more likely to make assumptions about them being false

585
00:37:34,122 --> 00:37:38,322
Speaker 1: or unreliable, acting on the belief nuclear war is no

586
00:37:38,402 --> 00:37:42,842
Speaker 1: longer a pressing concern. Older people might be more inclined

587
00:37:42,882 --> 00:37:44,242
Speaker 1: to believe them.

588
00:37:44,482 --> 00:37:49,042
Speaker 8: Education matters too, But one of the ones that fairly

589
00:37:49,202 --> 00:37:51,202
Speaker 8: educated people had was they said, well, I knew that

590
00:37:52,082 --> 00:37:53,842
Speaker 8: we weren't going to be out of war with North

591
00:37:53,882 --> 00:37:56,682
Speaker 8: Korea at that moment, so I knew to dismiss it.

592
00:37:57,122 --> 00:38:01,002
Speaker 8: And in some ways that's the scariest response, because what

593
00:38:01,042 --> 00:38:03,282
Speaker 8: do you know about what's going on in Pyongyang? Do

594
00:38:03,322 --> 00:38:05,282
Speaker 8: you even know what times on it is over there?

595
00:38:05,322 --> 00:38:06,322
Speaker 8: Do you know what's going on.

596
00:38:07,042 --> 00:38:12,442
Speaker 1: False alarms introduce another problem. The prospect of nuclear war

597
00:38:12,562 --> 00:38:15,882
Speaker 1: can feel so remote that when we hear of a mistake,

598
00:38:16,402 --> 00:38:20,082
Speaker 1: we might be more inclined to treat the next alert,

599
00:38:20,482 --> 00:38:24,882
Speaker 1: maybe a real alert like a mistake too. In Hawaii,

600
00:38:25,002 --> 00:38:28,682
Speaker 1: some people reported that they disregarded the alert because it

601
00:38:28,722 --> 00:38:33,362
Speaker 1: wasn't accompanied by air sirens used for natural disasters, a

602
00:38:33,402 --> 00:38:34,682
Speaker 1: pretty major assumption.

603
00:38:35,362 --> 00:38:38,242
Speaker 8: Will people disregard the message though, that is something worth

604
00:38:38,282 --> 00:38:41,122
Speaker 8: worrying about. But with something like the Hawaii accident, is

605
00:38:41,162 --> 00:38:44,882
Speaker 8: that going to make a place like Hawaii far less

606
00:38:44,962 --> 00:38:49,002
Speaker 8: likely to broadcast the message or add hesitancy if they're

607
00:38:49,042 --> 00:38:52,122
Speaker 8: not sure if it's real, because they realize the political

608
00:38:52,162 --> 00:38:55,402
Speaker 8: consequences are potentially very high for them.

609
00:38:56,042 --> 00:39:01,202
Speaker 1: So what's the answer? Alex is an advocate of preparedness.

610
00:39:01,642 --> 00:39:05,202
Speaker 1: I think Bert the Turtle, the genial character used by

611
00:39:05,242 --> 00:39:08,802
Speaker 1: the Department of Defense to sell kids on the idea

612
00:39:08,882 --> 00:39:12,042
Speaker 1: of cold war drills in the nineteen fifties.

613
00:39:12,042 --> 00:39:15,202
Speaker 8: And especially in a democracy, we have some say in this.

614
00:39:15,802 --> 00:39:18,802
Speaker 8: So that's my argument, not so much that hiding under

615
00:39:18,842 --> 00:39:22,442
Speaker 8: our desks is the best strategy, though in some cases

616
00:39:22,482 --> 00:39:26,002
Speaker 8: it's not the worst strategy, but that this is a

617
00:39:26,402 --> 00:39:30,882
Speaker 8: possible tool for thinking about nuclear weapons in a much

618
00:39:30,922 --> 00:39:34,562
Speaker 8: more serious and tangible way than we tend to think

619
00:39:34,562 --> 00:39:38,482
Speaker 8: about them.

620
00:39:38,722 --> 00:39:42,562
Speaker 1: The Hawaii alert was, in a way real. It was

621
00:39:42,602 --> 00:39:45,202
Speaker 1: alerting us to the fact that in the face of

622
00:39:45,402 --> 00:39:49,802
Speaker 1: actual nuclear attack, most of us wouldn't know what to do,

623
00:39:50,002 --> 00:39:54,162
Speaker 1: where to go, or whether it's even survivable. A survey

624
00:39:54,242 --> 00:39:57,762
Speaker 1: of two thousand Americans published in the Bulletin of Atomic

625
00:39:57,882 --> 00:40:02,402
Speaker 1: Scientists found nearly a quarter of people have given no

626
00:40:02,562 --> 00:40:05,882
Speaker 1: thought to their game plan in the event of nuclear war.

627
00:40:07,042 --> 00:40:11,482
Speaker 1: What would that preparation even look like? Part of Alex's

628
00:40:11,562 --> 00:40:16,122
Speaker 1: research is to look at the real world consequences if

629
00:40:16,242 --> 00:40:20,522
Speaker 1: North Korea or another country had launched a nuclear strike.

630
00:40:20,962 --> 00:40:25,762
Speaker 1: What would have happened? Why has some unique geography. There

631
00:40:25,802 --> 00:40:29,882
Speaker 1: aren't many homes with basements that could theoretically provide some

632
00:40:30,082 --> 00:40:34,642
Speaker 1: cover for one thing. Homes are usually wood construction, not

633
00:40:35,002 --> 00:40:39,442
Speaker 1: concrete or brick, which makes fire a problem. The mountains

634
00:40:39,482 --> 00:40:44,322
Speaker 1: would reflect much of the blest keeping it concentrated. That's

635
00:40:44,522 --> 00:40:46,682
Speaker 1: just a few of the many variables.

636
00:40:47,362 --> 00:40:50,002
Speaker 8: Is it an in detonade on the ground or is

637
00:40:50,002 --> 00:40:53,082
Speaker 8: it in detonated in the air. Are you aiming at

638
00:40:54,642 --> 00:40:57,882
Speaker 8: a military base? Like Pearl Harbor. Are you aiming at

639
00:40:57,922 --> 00:41:00,682
Speaker 8: Honolulu because you want to do the maximum damage and

640
00:41:00,762 --> 00:41:04,482
Speaker 8: mass some people. For any of those scenarios, you'll get

641
00:41:04,602 --> 00:41:08,322
Speaker 8: somewhat different answers. How far off from its target does

642
00:41:08,322 --> 00:41:09,242
Speaker 8: the weapon detonate?

643
00:41:09,682 --> 00:41:14,962
Speaker 1: According to nukemap alex's simulation of nuclear strikes, a missile

644
00:41:15,082 --> 00:41:19,922
Speaker 1: launched from Pyongyang to Honolulu could conceivably kill one hundred

645
00:41:19,962 --> 00:41:23,682
Speaker 1: and fifty eight thousand people in an instant. Many more

646
00:41:23,722 --> 00:41:28,162
Speaker 1: would be injured, and others would endure, as Cynthia explained,

647
00:41:28,522 --> 00:41:34,082
Speaker 1: a fairly horrific radiation related demise. There was also this,

648
00:41:34,682 --> 00:41:39,162
Speaker 1: when a false alert is dispensed, there's always a possibility

649
00:41:39,242 --> 00:41:44,482
Speaker 1: it triggers reaction before retraction. What if someone in a

650
00:41:44,522 --> 00:41:49,162
Speaker 1: position of power had taken the alert seriously and retaliated.

651
00:41:49,802 --> 00:41:53,362
Speaker 1: This might sound far fetched, but think about it. If

652
00:41:53,362 --> 00:41:57,162
Speaker 1: a nuclear alert is triggered, our government only has a

653
00:41:57,242 --> 00:42:01,362
Speaker 1: small window of time to react. Remember that nineteen eighty

654
00:42:01,402 --> 00:42:05,842
Speaker 1: false alert. When asked if that could have conceivably started

655
00:42:05,882 --> 00:42:10,362
Speaker 1: an escalation leading to World War Three, Assistant Secretary of

656
00:42:10,402 --> 00:42:14,882
Speaker 1: Defense Thomas Ross told reporters, I'm going to duck that question.

657
00:42:15,642 --> 00:42:16,922
Speaker 1: That's not too comforting.

658
00:42:17,482 --> 00:42:20,882
Speaker 8: A massive bit of misinformation like this false alarm, which

659
00:42:20,882 --> 00:42:25,082
Speaker 8: could be regarded as that could lead to escalations that

660
00:42:25,122 --> 00:42:29,882
Speaker 8: would have really bad impacts. It's totally plausible. This is

661
00:42:29,962 --> 00:42:33,602
Speaker 8: especially the case with systems where, for example, in the

662
00:42:33,682 --> 00:42:37,562
Speaker 8: United States, the use of nuclear weapons is something that

663
00:42:38,002 --> 00:42:40,762
Speaker 8: a single person, the United States President, can make the

664
00:42:40,802 --> 00:42:43,442
Speaker 8: decision about that. There are not a lot of safeguards there.

665
00:42:44,002 --> 00:42:47,122
Speaker 8: So I'm not saying it's something where you should be

666
00:42:47,242 --> 00:42:49,602
Speaker 8: worried about this as the number one worry on your

667
00:42:49,642 --> 00:42:52,842
Speaker 8: list of worries. But if you're asking is it possible?

668
00:42:52,922 --> 00:42:56,242
Speaker 8: Is it plausible? Sure, it's totally possible and plausible. Do

669
00:42:56,322 --> 00:42:58,482
Speaker 8: I think that it's super likely?

670
00:42:59,122 --> 00:43:03,922
Speaker 1: No, not super likely, And we know it sounds sensationalist,

671
00:43:04,282 --> 00:43:08,082
Speaker 1: very TV movie of the week. That's the point. If

672
00:43:08,162 --> 00:43:12,322
Speaker 1: we don't confront the horror of nuclear fallout by confronting

673
00:43:12,442 --> 00:43:18,642
Speaker 1: the devastating consequences, then we risk becoming numb to the idea.

674
00:43:18,882 --> 00:43:25,082
Speaker 1: So how do we prevent it from happening again? There were,

675
00:43:25,202 --> 00:43:29,882
Speaker 1: of course, state and FCC investigations into the hows and

676
00:43:30,202 --> 00:43:34,882
Speaker 1: whys of the Hawaii alert. Haima called it a combination

677
00:43:35,122 --> 00:43:40,242
Speaker 1: of human error and inadequate safeguards. The drill took place

678
00:43:40,442 --> 00:43:45,562
Speaker 1: during a shift change, the agency said, confusing workers. The

679
00:43:45,602 --> 00:43:50,762
Speaker 1: head of HIMA resigned, as did the executive officer. The

680
00:43:50,882 --> 00:43:56,042
Speaker 1: employee who selected the nuclear option was first reassigned and

681
00:43:56,202 --> 00:44:00,922
Speaker 1: then fired. Some employees alleged the man who had worked

682
00:44:00,962 --> 00:44:04,882
Speaker 1: at HIIMA for over a decade had made mistakes before,

683
00:44:05,442 --> 00:44:10,682
Speaker 1: confusing fake alert for real ones, an accusation the employee disputed.

684
00:44:11,362 --> 00:44:15,322
Speaker 1: While he said he hadn't heard the word exercise, other

685
00:44:15,442 --> 00:44:20,442
Speaker 1: employees said they had. Speaking to the press, he insisted

686
00:44:20,642 --> 00:44:24,322
Speaker 1: he hadn't made a mistake, that he heard the words

687
00:44:24,522 --> 00:44:28,162
Speaker 1: this is not a drill, and nothing else. He did

688
00:44:28,282 --> 00:44:32,082
Speaker 1: as he was trained. He thought a nuclear missile really

689
00:44:32,282 --> 00:44:36,602
Speaker 1: was coming to Hawaii. He remained anonymous out of fear

690
00:44:36,802 --> 00:44:41,842
Speaker 1: some angry locals might seek retribution. This was probably a

691
00:44:41,882 --> 00:44:45,362
Speaker 1: good decision. One man who managed to get through to

692
00:44:45,522 --> 00:44:49,922
Speaker 1: nine one one told a dispatcher that someone quote deserved

693
00:44:50,002 --> 00:44:54,042
Speaker 1: a beating for the mistake. Another HAIMA employee had his

694
00:44:54,162 --> 00:44:57,922
Speaker 1: photo taken by the Associated Press standing next to a

695
00:44:58,002 --> 00:45:02,042
Speaker 1: computer monitor that ran with stories about the mistake. Some

696
00:45:02,162 --> 00:45:06,202
Speaker 1: readers inferred he was the employee at fault and sent

697
00:45:06,282 --> 00:45:09,882
Speaker 1: him death threats. He actually wasn't even in the office

698
00:45:09,922 --> 00:45:14,402
Speaker 1: that day. In the end, only four medical event connected

699
00:45:14,442 --> 00:45:19,162
Speaker 1: to the alert were officially reported. This included one elderly

700
00:45:19,242 --> 00:45:23,522
Speaker 1: man who fell, one minor car accident, and someone who

701
00:45:23,682 --> 00:45:28,042
Speaker 1: phoned nine one one out of anxiety. No surprise there.

702
00:45:28,522 --> 00:45:31,602
Speaker 1: The man who suffered a heart attack lived to sue

703
00:45:32,002 --> 00:45:35,122
Speaker 1: and settled with the state in twenty twenty five for

704
00:45:35,282 --> 00:45:39,522
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. In July twenty

705
00:45:39,602 --> 00:45:44,882
Speaker 1: twenty five, HAIMA sent out another emergency alert via phone notification.

706
00:45:45,522 --> 00:45:49,602
Speaker 1: This one was clearly marked this is only a test.

707
00:45:52,882 --> 00:45:56,562
Speaker 1: The Hawaii false missile alert was an exercise in a

708
00:45:56,642 --> 00:46:01,202
Speaker 1: certain kind of psychological experiment it would be impossible to

709
00:46:01,362 --> 00:46:07,242
Speaker 1: ever replicate. For nearly forty minutes, people believed that their

710
00:46:07,362 --> 00:46:10,202
Speaker 1: time was coming to an end. It was a kind

711
00:46:10,242 --> 00:46:14,602
Speaker 1: of near death experience, the one that had implications for

712
00:46:14,682 --> 00:46:20,002
Speaker 1: the entire world. So what happens after? How does that

713
00:46:20,082 --> 00:46:23,282
Speaker 1: kind of event change how you live a life you

714
00:46:23,322 --> 00:46:27,522
Speaker 1: didn't think you'd even have. For John Aaron, it meant

715
00:46:27,562 --> 00:46:30,562
Speaker 1: realizing you could count on your brand new spouse.

716
00:46:30,962 --> 00:46:33,282
Speaker 2: It was just like you'd been hit by a truck.

717
00:46:33,882 --> 00:46:37,482
Speaker 2: You know, and you were just dealing with the aftermath. Yeah. No,

718
00:46:37,602 --> 00:46:39,602
Speaker 2: I think it showed that we could trust each other

719
00:46:39,642 --> 00:46:42,442
Speaker 2: implicitly and that we can work as a team. Like

720
00:46:42,482 --> 00:46:44,962
Speaker 2: I told you, she told me to get my button

721
00:46:45,042 --> 00:46:47,042
Speaker 2: gear and get out of the hotel room when I

722
00:46:47,082 --> 00:46:49,722
Speaker 2: was taking too long. I told her we need to

723
00:46:49,762 --> 00:46:51,882
Speaker 2: get down, we need to get lower, and she followed

724
00:46:51,882 --> 00:46:54,282
Speaker 2: my lead on that. So, you know, I think it

725
00:46:54,282 --> 00:46:55,922
Speaker 2: was a good give and take, and I think we

726
00:46:56,362 --> 00:46:59,002
Speaker 2: knew that we could go through a really tricky situation

727
00:46:59,082 --> 00:47:02,402
Speaker 2: together without melting down at each other, without you know,

728
00:47:02,802 --> 00:47:05,042
Speaker 2: getting caught up in nonsensical stuff.

729
00:47:06,042 --> 00:47:09,682
Speaker 1: For Cynthia, it was about recommitting to the idea of

730
00:47:09,762 --> 00:47:12,122
Speaker 1: disarmament part of her life's work.

731
00:47:12,682 --> 00:47:16,322
Speaker 7: We've been so lucky, and I think people just need

732
00:47:16,322 --> 00:47:19,842
Speaker 7: to understand that this isn't a dinosaur issue that went

733
00:47:19,882 --> 00:47:21,762
Speaker 7: away at the end of the Cold War, that it's

734
00:47:21,802 --> 00:47:25,042
Speaker 7: not something that's in the past, that it's right here

735
00:47:25,122 --> 00:47:28,802
Speaker 7: and now. So that's I think the first thing is

736
00:47:28,842 --> 00:47:29,722
Speaker 7: to wake people up.

737
00:47:30,602 --> 00:47:32,762
Speaker 1: The days following were interesting.

738
00:47:33,242 --> 00:47:36,522
Speaker 7: It was an apocalypse that didn't happen, and you know,

739
00:47:36,562 --> 00:47:40,882
Speaker 7: it was an armageddon that didn't begin, And so for me,

740
00:47:42,042 --> 00:47:45,922
Speaker 7: I decided pretty much in that moment. I mean, I

741
00:47:45,962 --> 00:47:48,082
Speaker 7: got home, and the other thing that was going on

742
00:47:48,122 --> 00:47:51,002
Speaker 7: for me is that my senses were all enhanced. It

743
00:47:51,042 --> 00:47:52,962
Speaker 7: was like I was a child again. I have a

744
00:47:52,962 --> 00:47:56,162
Speaker 7: crown flower bush. I'm looking at it right now outside

745
00:47:56,362 --> 00:48:01,522
Speaker 7: my front door, and the colors were all more vibrant

746
00:48:01,682 --> 00:48:04,642
Speaker 7: than I'd ever seen them before, the greens, the purples.

747
00:48:04,842 --> 00:48:08,362
Speaker 7: There were butterflies dancing and fling everywhere, and I just

748
00:48:08,362 --> 00:48:11,122
Speaker 7: stood there and stared, and I'd never done that before,

749
00:48:11,842 --> 00:48:14,202
Speaker 7: like a child would do at the wonder of life.

750
00:48:15,402 --> 00:48:19,362
Speaker 1: But something else surprised her, even knowing the effects of

751
00:48:19,442 --> 00:48:23,802
Speaker 1: radiation sickness, even after hearing about the suffering of survivors,

752
00:48:24,122 --> 00:48:26,682
Speaker 1: when the moment came, she wanted to live.

753
00:48:27,562 --> 00:48:31,202
Speaker 7: I found myself thinking, oh, I didn't do what I

754
00:48:31,282 --> 00:48:34,082
Speaker 7: was supposed to do. I didn't think I could survive.

755
00:48:34,242 --> 00:48:37,162
Speaker 7: I didn't think i'd want to survive for the reasons

756
00:48:37,162 --> 00:48:40,682
Speaker 7: that I've mentioned. And now I'm in this moment and

757
00:48:40,722 --> 00:48:41,402
Speaker 7: I want to try.

758
00:48:45,242 --> 00:48:48,402
Speaker 1: For Holly Dubey, it meant marrying her skills as a

759
00:48:48,402 --> 00:48:52,682
Speaker 1: songwriter with her need to process what had happened. After

760
00:48:52,722 --> 00:48:56,482
Speaker 1: getting back from Hawaii, she remained in bed for two weeks,

761
00:48:57,002 --> 00:49:01,482
Speaker 1: the post traumatic stress of the situation leaving her exhausted.

762
00:49:02,362 --> 00:49:04,642
Speaker 3: I would say it was really life changing. So I

763
00:49:04,682 --> 00:49:07,922
Speaker 3: think going through that made me look at my life

764
00:49:07,962 --> 00:49:12,122
Speaker 3: differently in that I kind of took on the philosophy

765
00:49:12,162 --> 00:49:15,202
Speaker 3: of if not now, when you know, am I waiting

766
00:49:15,202 --> 00:49:17,962
Speaker 3: to do anything that I've wanted to do? Am I

767
00:49:18,042 --> 00:49:21,282
Speaker 3: showing enough love to the people that I love? Am

768
00:49:21,322 --> 00:49:23,882
Speaker 3: I being who I want to be? Am I doing

769
00:49:23,882 --> 00:49:27,642
Speaker 3: everything I should be doing? So it gave me, in

770
00:49:27,682 --> 00:49:30,642
Speaker 3: a way, I would say, a sense of abandon about

771
00:49:30,762 --> 00:49:35,282
Speaker 3: holding back for anything, and it's actually been lovely and wonderful.

772
00:49:36,282 --> 00:49:40,522
Speaker 1: Later in twenty eighteen, she began processing that trauma through

773
00:49:40,562 --> 00:49:45,442
Speaker 1: her own unique lens, one that was formed by songwriting.

774
00:49:46,762 --> 00:49:50,682
Speaker 3: I felt better after two weeks, But after that, kind

775
00:49:50,722 --> 00:49:54,242
Speaker 3: of after digesting that whole experience and so forth, I

776
00:49:54,322 --> 00:49:56,762
Speaker 3: felt like in one of those old movies, I'm going

777
00:49:56,842 --> 00:49:58,242
Speaker 3: to write a musical about that.

778
00:49:59,322 --> 00:50:02,602
Speaker 1: This is Not a Drill had its off Broadway premiere

779
00:50:02,642 --> 00:50:06,322
Speaker 1: in late twenty twenty five. It's about what happens when

780
00:50:06,362 --> 00:50:10,522
Speaker 1: people are faced with their mortality as the seconds tick down.

781
00:50:11,282 --> 00:50:13,362
Speaker 3: I would say that to anyone, whether or not you

782
00:50:13,402 --> 00:50:14,882
Speaker 3: had thought you were going to get blown up by

783
00:50:14,922 --> 00:50:18,442
Speaker 3: a nuclear bomb. Do what you want to do. Don't

784
00:50:18,482 --> 00:50:23,162
Speaker 3: be afraid, you know, explore your creativity, ask for that

785
00:50:23,282 --> 00:50:25,522
Speaker 3: new job, ask for a raise, Go ahead and do it,

786
00:50:25,882 --> 00:50:28,602
Speaker 3: because none of us gets out of here alive. Right.

787
00:50:35,122 --> 00:50:37,442
Speaker 1: I just have to say I find this episode so

788
00:50:37,842 --> 00:50:41,682
Speaker 1: viscerally scary. I feel like I was scared for days after,

789
00:50:42,042 --> 00:50:44,722
Speaker 1: just like the horror of having to look your own

790
00:50:44,762 --> 00:50:48,482
Speaker 1: mortality in the face, Like this truly is my nightmare situation.

791
00:50:48,762 --> 00:50:52,602
Speaker 1: And it's also honestly a nightmare situation for the guy

792
00:50:52,642 --> 00:50:55,762
Speaker 1: who messed up at work, like imagining screwing up that badly.

793
00:50:56,082 --> 00:51:00,002
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I've thought since we first recorded this, like, Okay,

794
00:51:00,242 --> 00:51:02,922
Speaker 4: who do you call with that last call? If you're

795
00:51:02,922 --> 00:51:06,242
Speaker 4: with your family, do you still call my mom? Do

796
00:51:06,322 --> 00:51:09,482
Speaker 4: I trying to post something on social media that more

797
00:51:09,522 --> 00:51:13,002
Speaker 4: people will see? Do I try to capture? Always thinking,

798
00:51:13,042 --> 00:51:14,362
Speaker 4: if we get out of this, it would be good

799
00:51:14,402 --> 00:51:17,922
Speaker 4: to have some contemporaneous audio of the event, just in case.

800
00:51:18,682 --> 00:51:20,522
Speaker 6: I think I go full journalist at that point and

801
00:51:20,562 --> 00:51:22,682
Speaker 6: just start recording sound on my phone so I could

802
00:51:22,722 --> 00:51:24,962
Speaker 6: have the document and hopefully they either find my phone

803
00:51:25,082 --> 00:51:26,682
Speaker 6: or I survive and I can be like, this is

804
00:51:26,682 --> 00:51:27,242
Speaker 6: what it was like.

805
00:51:27,562 --> 00:51:30,162
Speaker 4: Yeah, when we're thinking about very special character, I think

806
00:51:30,162 --> 00:51:33,042
Speaker 4: it's Holly who is in the moment thinking about, well,

807
00:51:33,042 --> 00:51:35,442
Speaker 4: how are they going to identify us if we're blown

808
00:51:35,522 --> 00:51:40,402
Speaker 4: up here Cynthia looking down and seeing like, oh man,

809
00:51:40,482 --> 00:51:44,242
Speaker 4: my phone's only at twelve percent, that is like almost

810
00:51:44,282 --> 00:51:46,882
Speaker 4: as terrifying to me as the text itself.

811
00:51:47,522 --> 00:51:49,002
Speaker 6: That is one hundred percent of how I would be

812
00:51:49,042 --> 00:51:51,082
Speaker 6: in a nuclear armor getting like, right now, my phone's

813
00:51:51,082 --> 00:51:54,362
Speaker 6: at fourteen percent. So I'm just fac person. That's right that.

814
00:51:54,362 --> 00:51:57,242
Speaker 6: I was like, that's so real, Darren. There are a

815
00:51:57,242 --> 00:51:59,482
Speaker 6: lot of characters in this one. I was able to

816
00:51:59,522 --> 00:51:59,922
Speaker 6: cast them.

817
00:52:00,082 --> 00:52:01,122
Speaker 2: You were all right.

818
00:52:01,842 --> 00:52:03,882
Speaker 6: I went through and I thought, for John Aaron, the

819
00:52:03,922 --> 00:52:07,402
Speaker 6: morning news anchor, the birthday boy, I thought Aaron Eckhart.

820
00:52:07,562 --> 00:52:09,322
Speaker 6: I just felt like he had that kind of like

821
00:52:09,442 --> 00:52:11,362
Speaker 6: morning news anchor and Hawaii kind of thing.

822
00:52:11,562 --> 00:52:13,762
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has that chin, yes, right.

823
00:52:13,842 --> 00:52:15,882
Speaker 6: And then for his wife and Natalia Aaron, I thought

824
00:52:15,962 --> 00:52:18,882
Speaker 6: Rachel McAdams, I maybe, like, you know, swept up by

825
00:52:18,922 --> 00:52:21,522
Speaker 6: the recent movies she's been in. But for Holly Dubay,

826
00:52:21,602 --> 00:52:24,002
Speaker 6: I was thinking Olivia Coleman. I just thought because she

827
00:52:24,042 --> 00:52:26,162
Speaker 6: seems both practical but also somebody who could say the

828
00:52:26,162 --> 00:52:29,042
Speaker 6: word torso and make it really hit. And then for

829
00:52:29,122 --> 00:52:33,282
Speaker 6: the nuclear experts Cynthia Lazarov and Bruce Lazarov, I love

830
00:52:33,322 --> 00:52:35,202
Speaker 6: by the way that they go to a meditation cave.

831
00:52:35,482 --> 00:52:37,802
Speaker 6: That's just that detail is amazing. So I wanted to

832
00:52:37,802 --> 00:52:39,482
Speaker 6: make them a real life married couple. So I picked

833
00:52:39,562 --> 00:52:42,642
Speaker 6: Rachel White's and Daniel Craig. I could just somehow see

834
00:52:42,682 --> 00:52:44,722
Speaker 6: them two of them both being nuclear experts. They're just

835
00:52:44,762 --> 00:52:45,362
Speaker 6: so smart.

836
00:52:45,402 --> 00:52:47,802
Speaker 4: This is another one that I was surprised to see.

837
00:52:47,802 --> 00:52:50,762
Speaker 4: It doesn't appear to have been made into a movie yet, right.

838
00:52:50,842 --> 00:52:54,442
Speaker 1: Although there is that movie that Catherine Bigelow just made

839
00:52:54,562 --> 00:52:57,762
Speaker 1: that I can't name that's about like countdown to a

840
00:52:57,842 --> 00:52:58,722
Speaker 1: nuclear disaster.

841
00:52:59,202 --> 00:53:01,482
Speaker 6: Yes, I saw that. It's it's pretty harrowing. Yeah, it

842
00:53:01,522 --> 00:53:03,322
Speaker 6: makes you realize, like it's just a matter of pushing

843
00:53:03,322 --> 00:53:06,602
Speaker 6: buttons and people panicking. And like, also, speaking of pushing

844
00:53:06,602 --> 00:53:09,682
Speaker 6: buttons people panicking, how does the system not have a

845
00:53:10,082 --> 00:53:12,962
Speaker 6: let's undo this notice or send out a second notice?

846
00:53:13,002 --> 00:53:15,042
Speaker 6: Like how you design the program and not have like

847
00:53:15,082 --> 00:53:16,362
Speaker 6: another button to push?

848
00:53:16,482 --> 00:53:19,762
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they probably revised the system.

849
00:53:19,682 --> 00:53:22,322
Speaker 6: Or about the governor who can't remember his Twitter password, like,

850
00:53:22,362 --> 00:53:24,642
Speaker 6: how were his ex password? I thought that was amazing.

851
00:53:25,482 --> 00:53:25,842
Speaker 1: David e.

852
00:53:25,922 --> 00:53:28,562
Speaker 6: K Is like, are you kidding me? Once again? Very Relatable.

853
00:53:29,682 --> 00:53:32,202
Speaker 4: Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people.

854
00:53:33,162 --> 00:53:36,442
Speaker 4: This show is hosted by Danish Schwartz, Zaron Burnett, and

855
00:53:36,562 --> 00:53:40,122
Speaker 4: Jason English o. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's

856
00:53:40,162 --> 00:53:43,882
Speaker 4: episode was written by Jake Ross, editing and sam designed

857
00:53:43,882 --> 00:53:48,042
Speaker 4: by Chris Childs, Mixing and mastering by Josh Fisher. Additional

858
00:53:48,162 --> 00:53:52,602
Speaker 4: editing by Mary Doo. Original music by Elise McCoy, show

859
00:53:52,642 --> 00:53:57,722
Speaker 4: logo by Lucy Kintonia, social clips by Yarberry. Media Executive

860
00:53:57,722 --> 00:54:00,842
Speaker 4: producer is Jason English. If you ever want to email

861
00:54:00,882 --> 00:54:02,802
Speaker 4: the show, you can hit us up at Very Special

862
00:54:02,842 --> 00:54:06,882
Speaker 4: Episode at gmail dot com. Very Special Episodes is a

863
00:54:07,002 --> 00:54:08,842
Speaker 4: production of iHeart Podcasts.