1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from House top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this week we are talking 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: about wives in the sense of divorces and life after marriage. 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: And this episode we're going to focus in on a 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: more maligned character, often a second or third or even 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: fourth wife, called the trophy wife. Yeah. There's definitely not 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: many good stereotypes or images surrounding this trophy wife figure. 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: We usually think of her as a blonde bimbo. She's 10 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: probably had all sorts of plastic surgery to alter or 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: enhance her appearance. She's probably not very smart, she might 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: not have gone to college. She really just probably walked 13 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: out of whatever club she was working at to get 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: herself a rich husband. Yeah, and he's probably super old, 15 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: possibly on the brink of death. And we assume that 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: she's just in it for the money. And this has 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: been a really fascinating character to unpack and someone who 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: we've been talking about a lot lately. There was actually 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: a now canceled show on ABC called Trophy Wife. And 20 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: even though it was a pretty delightful show created by 21 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,559 Speaker 1: Sarah haskins Um, who if any of you have seen 22 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: current TVs Target Women. She was the hilarious host of that, 23 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of TV critics said, hey, it's a 24 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: decent show, but it was probably canceled because people didn't 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: want to watch a show called trophy wife. Yeah, because 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: you assume that's going to be a show like, oh, great, well, 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: I've got to watch for half an hour some blonde 28 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: woman like take over a man's life and take all 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: of his money. But you know, it was really more 30 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: about the family dynamic. Was so much less about the old, 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: tired trope of the trophy wife and so much more 32 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: about women kind of getting on in the world with 33 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: their kind of new family. Yeah. But of course we 34 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: do see lots of those trophy wife stereotypes perpetuated, especially 35 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: on reality television, on shows like Millionaire Matchmaker, The Real 36 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: Housewife Franchise, and also Basketball Wives. So we want to know, though, 37 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: off TV, to what extent do these women exist, Where 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: did the stereotype come from? And more recently a question 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: that's been popping up, do trophy husbands exist? Well? Stereotypically 40 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: in our culture, before you can have a trophy wife, 41 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: you have to have the gold digging girlfriend or mistress 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: who comes along. Uh. And this woman supposedly has the 43 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: goal of becoming a trophy wife eventually, so she's secure 44 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: in her retire plan you know, otherwise known as her 45 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: husband's money. But stereotypically in our culture, before you can 46 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: get to the trophy wife, you have to have the 47 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: gold digging girlfriend or mistress whose goal it is to 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: get all of this man's money and his wealth and 49 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: live in the lap of luxury for the rest of 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: her life. And so where does the gold digger stereotype 51 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: come from? And what role does race and socioeconomics play 52 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: in it? Yeah, so it first comes love, then comes marriage, 53 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: first comes gold digging, then comes trophy wife. Ng. And 54 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: I mean this very concept though, of women marrying rich, 55 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: marrying up however you want to phrase it, isn't new 56 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: because we need to keep in mind that the institution 57 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: of marriage was founded as an economic arrangement. Women very 58 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: figuratively speaking, have been marrying for money since the get go. 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: But this whole gold digger stereotype is especially pernicious, even 60 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: more so, I think than the trophy wife. Um. But 61 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: in real life, it's hard to pin down how many 62 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: gold digging women there really are, how how real the 63 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: protagonist in Kanye's gold Digger hit is um. In two 64 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: thousand and fourteen, for instance, Heidi Stevens with a Chicago 65 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Tribune interviewed a Chicago based matchmaker, Bella Gandhi, who claimed 66 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: that very few women come to her directly seeking out 67 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: rich men, which is kind of the opposite of what 68 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: you see with Patti Stinger on Bravo with Millionaire Matchmaker, 69 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: where I mean lines of women are out the door 70 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: auditioning for a chance to possibly go on a date 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: with a guy who has millions, millions and millions and millions. 72 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: Didn't this matchmaker also say that these women are looking 73 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: for really tall men. Yeah, like height was a big Yeah, 74 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: it was a big thing. But you know that we 75 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: we see the stereotype applying to women. It's not like 76 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: we see, though, rich men going to matchmakers saying I 77 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: want an incredibly wealthy woman to carry me through the 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: rest of my days. We don't have the sugar mama, 79 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: yeah matchmaker happening um now. Of course, though, speaking of matchmaking, 80 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: there are sites like seeking Arrangements dot Com, which claims 81 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: to have over three point six million members. Caroline that 82 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: is specifically geared toward wealthy men and women seeking wealthy men, 83 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: and it's all framed in sugar daddy kinds of language. 84 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: It's mostly sugar daddies and women seeking sugar daddies. And 85 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: according to a Vanity Fair piece about seeking arrangements in 86 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: which the author went on and went on a bunch 87 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: of dates with really rich guys and concluded that, well, 88 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: I guess this isn't for me so much. Sugar Mama 89 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: is only make up about one percent of this population. 90 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to read about the pursuit of wealthy 91 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: men in different cultures too. We read an excerpt of 92 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: Peter Pomeranza's new book Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible, 93 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: The Surreal Heart of the New Russia, that basically details 94 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: the millionaire baiting academies that some young Russian women will 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: pay to attend to learn the fine art of gold digging. 96 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: And oh my god, that was fascinating, just learning about 97 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: the cultural nuances of what women expect of themselves and 98 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: of men and vice versa. They're one of the academy's 99 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: teachers even tells Peter, uh, you know this is look 100 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: at what feminism has done. Feminism is all wrong feminism 101 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: has for some reason been filling our heads with the 102 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: idea that women need to work seven in an office 103 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: or a factory, and that's ridiculous working hard as a 104 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: man's job. It's a woman's job to look pretty and 105 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: be at home. So it's that's that's a more ingrained 106 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: cultural broad idea that a woman should just be living 107 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: off of some wealthy fat cats money. But it takes 108 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: a lot of work. According to that article, I mean, 109 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: these women were I mean they're going to academies in 110 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: quotes there, having to pay a lot of attention to 111 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: their to the physical appearance. I mean, it takes it 112 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: takes work to to try to bait a rich husband 113 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: as well. But here's the thing. This is where the 114 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: gold digger thing, I mean, the gold digger stereotype is 115 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: ugly to begin with because it assumes that women want 116 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: nothing more than men for their money and their status 117 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: and their power. But when it comes to our pop 118 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: cultural depictions and stereotypes of gold digger, like the Kanye 119 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: West song gold Digger, there is very much a racial 120 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: aspect to this because Black women are plagued by this stereotype. 121 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: There was a two thousand thirteen survey conducted by Essence 122 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: Magazine among Black women, which found the seven percent of 123 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: those women I did gold digger as one of the 124 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: most common media stereotypes they see firsthand of black women. Yeah. 125 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: One of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, Porshea Stewart, was 126 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: cited as being very proud of her brief stint as 127 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: a trophy wife. She ended up getting hand at her 128 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: divorce papers, so she's no longer trophy wife. She's a 129 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: triphy divorce. Trophy divorce. Well in Porsche, Stewart being proud 130 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: of her trophy wife status is sort of a standout 131 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: example because, as sharing Bell writes over at Madame Noir, 132 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: yes we are constantly cast as gold diggers, but rarely 133 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: seen as a trophy wife. Because that's the difference between 134 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: a gold digger and a trophy wife. A old digger 135 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: inherently as someone independent who's like out on their own, 136 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:07,359 Speaker 1: trying to, you know, use their feminine wiles to ensnare 137 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: a rich man. But trophy wife is at least seen 138 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: as some kind of prize. She's almost socially safer. Well, 139 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: she's safer to society at large because she's within a marriage. 140 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: The gold digger is almost like she's a shark in 141 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: the water. Yeah. Well, the implication is that while the 142 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: gold digger is out seeking herself a husband to ensnare, 143 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: the trophy wife is the one being sought after and 144 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: sharing ball rights that Madame Noir about how being a 145 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: trophy wife is quote a white woman's only club, and 146 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: she goes on to talk about even when it comes 147 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: to really successful, wealthy black men, they often marry women 148 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: who are not black. She says, sure, some I'm married 149 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: for love. However, there are some men who marry for status, 150 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: and she says, by obtaining a white trophy partner, these 151 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: men can feel themselves closer to endowing a status which 152 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: would enable him to acquire all the privileges that come 153 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: with whiteness in American society. Yeah. She cites people like 154 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's Tiger Woods and Kanye West that once they 155 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: hit the big time, rarely do you see a woman 156 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: who looks like them, so to speak, on their arm. 157 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: They tend to have what, whether she's white or just 158 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: lighter skinned, a woman going with them to events, going 159 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: with them to parties. Um. One thing that really struck 160 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: me as weird though about her trophy wife column is 161 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: that she sharing Ball frames all of this as very unfortunate, 162 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: not that one has to be a trophy wife or 163 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: a gold digger, but that black women are relegated to 164 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: gold diggers and don't get the opportunity to be trophy wives, 165 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: which she frames a sort of a viable way to 166 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: get by. She says that, hey, we're using our economic capital, 167 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: our version of economic capital too. If we are going 168 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: to be a trophy wife, Um, we're getting something for 169 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: our femininity or our beauty. But you know, when she 170 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: says that it's a white woman's only game, she does 171 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: frame that as an unfortunate thing. Yeah, And on the 172 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: one hand, I am hesitant to agree that, like, yes, 173 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: equal opportunity trophy wifedom for all, but I think she 174 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: is absolutely right in her observation that of how this 175 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: reflects perhaps what she calls Eurocentric standards of beauty. And 176 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: this very much relates to the podcast we did a 177 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: while back on the exoticistizing of women of color and 178 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: this issue within the black community. Two of black women 179 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: talking about how like even just the different shades of 180 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: their skin has a status as well, that women with 181 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: darker skin are often seen as just kind of regular, 182 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: whereas lighter skinned women are seen as, oh, they're exotic, 183 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: they're the prizes. Yeah, but if we're still speaking about 184 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 1: issues of race and class, on the other end of 185 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: the spectrum, you have Asian women who there was a 186 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: trend piece in Marie Claire in two thousand nine talking 187 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: about Asian women being the new consummate trophy wife. Yeah. 188 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. This article was kind of awful, I 189 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: will say in its tone, but it was written by 190 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: Shanghai Borne ying Chu, who is trying to put together 191 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: the puzzle pieces of why she has seen so many 192 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: Asian trophy wives essentially, so her examples that she offers 193 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: include Woody Allen and Sunny Preven, which to me, we're 194 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: not even in trophy wife territory at that point. That's 195 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: a whole another ball of wax to talk about. Um. 196 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: But then also Rupert Murdoch and Wendy Dang, Bruce Wasserstein 197 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: and Angela Chow, George Soros and Jennifer Chun and on 198 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: and on and on, and so she's wondering why would 199 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: these smart, accomplished Asian women want to marry these guys, 200 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: Because in a lot of these cases, these women are 201 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: successful in their own right, and they have economic power 202 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: in their own right. And the conclusions that she draws 203 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: are made me a little uncomfortable, to be completely honest, 204 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: but maybe that's just like me wallowing in my whiteness. Yeah. 205 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: She basically says that these older, more portly rich gentlemen 206 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,359 Speaker 1: make amazing renegade suitors because they're an attempt at rebellion 207 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 1: on the part of these otherwise very accomplished and amazing 208 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: Asian women, and that these women are looking for a 209 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: father figure. Yikes, which just makes me want to sing 210 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: that song, but I won't. Yeah. So, And I was 211 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: asking Caroline before we record this podcast whether this kind 212 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: of quote unquote tren piece would even fly today, because 213 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it certainly pointed out, though importantly, the fetishization 214 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: of Asian women as being perhaps the perfect trophy wife, 215 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: because they're fetishized as being very docile and submissive and 216 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: also very exotic in their beauty. And there was also 217 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: sort of a point in there that echo Sharing Ball's 218 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: column in terms of saying, we're just trading on our 219 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: economic capital. You know, if you want someone who appears 220 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: like she might be submissive, fine, and and who's younger. Fine, 221 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: but I also have, you know, a great education. Maybe 222 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: I'm an m B A, I make a lot of money, 223 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: maybe I have my own company. And that's what's so 224 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: interesting and what we'll get into in this episode about 225 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: the evolution of where the trophy wife came from, where 226 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: we get these stereotypes, and how our image of the 227 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: trophy wife has really evolved. And even at this point, 228 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear that the stereotype isn't so 229 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: simple as it might seem on the outside, because there 230 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: is a lot packed into that trophy in terms of 231 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: what we do deem worthy. And then on the flip 232 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: side too, with the whole the gold digger opposite side 233 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: of that corn coin where she is nothing but seen 234 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: as rather worthless. Um. But when it comes to this 235 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: term trophy wife, where did it come from? So? Over 236 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal language columnist Ben Zimmer sites Phillips 237 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: E Rosen tours The Single Woman, published in nineteen sixty one, 238 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: which defines the trophy wife as quote the woman who 239 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: was hard to get because of birth or wealth or 240 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: beauty to be kept on exhibition, like a mammoth tusk 241 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: or prime picasso. But it seems like the term trophy 242 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: wife really entered our lexicon. Yeah. In Julie Connolly uses 243 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: the term trophy wife in a Fortune magazine of her 244 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: story headlined at the CEO's second Wife. But in her 245 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: use of the term, these women aren't exactly bimbos. They 246 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: are ambitious and accomplished, just like their husbands are. Yeah, 247 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: she writes in that column, powerful men are beginning to 248 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: demand trophy wives. But she goes on to say that 249 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: the trophy wife quote doesn't hang on the wall like 250 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: a moose head because she typically has her own business, 251 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: though not so large as to overshadow her husband. And 252 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: she talks about how these trophy wives serve the purpose 253 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: of quote, dispelling the notion that men peak sexually at 254 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: age eighteen. So they're very much a status symbol. But 255 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: really importantly, they have success in their own rights. So 256 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: they're beautiful and they're successful. They're the whole package. And 257 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: the cover model for the article was Caroline Rohne, who 258 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: was address designer with a ten million dollar business who 259 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: married and and richer financier Henry Kravis. And now, of 260 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: course this couple has since divorced, but she was the 261 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 1: you know the model trophy wife. Yeah. But okay, so 262 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: we've mentioned money. She's got money, and she's got beauty, 263 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: but what about the brains. She's got brains too. I mean, 264 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: if you're going to build a ten million dollar business, 265 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: you've got a Yeah, this is not someone who is 266 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: our cultural stereotype of just the blonde, big boob bimbo. 267 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: Not that there's anything wrong with having big boobs or 268 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: being blonde, it's just that the trophy wife, when we 269 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: start to unpack her, there's a lot more to her. Yeah, 270 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: And so there have been a lot of trend pieces 271 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years about this so called 272 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: new trophy wife, even though she's really the original trophy wife, 273 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: as we just described from that article. And the wedding 274 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: that really kicked a lot of this off too was 275 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: George Clooney marrying ox Or educated human rights lawyer am 276 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: all Ala Mouden, And we'll talk more about that relationship later, 277 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: because not only have people called her an incredible trophy 278 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: wife for him, people have also said, well, look at 279 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: what she's done, he's the trophy husband for her. Yeah, 280 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: because he's he's a glamorous actor, a Hollywood actor, So 281 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: Kristin Hufton over at Huffington's Post writes that the woman 282 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: who got ahead on her looks by marrying a sugar 283 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: daddy is now being replaced by the woman who is 284 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: equal to her man in earning power and career position. 285 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: And that is sexy. And so it's almost like removing 286 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: past the whole trophy wife thing or the trophy husband 287 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: thing and into the power couple. The the ideal of 288 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: the power couple to people who are both beautiful, successful, 289 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: wealthy and smart. Yeah, and side note though, why is 290 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: it such a revelation that a woman can be beautiful 291 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: and smart at the same time? What kind of odd um? So? 292 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: The New York Post, though a laudable public asian As, 293 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: always trotted out a series of new trophy wives. I 294 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: believe it was in two thousand and fourteen that included 295 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: George Soros, who's in his eighties married to Tamiko Bolton 296 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: who's in her forties. Also Harvey Weinstein, who is twenty 297 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: four years older than his gorgeous wife and designer Georgina Chapman, 298 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: and then also former financier Susanne Ersha, who was twenty 299 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: years younger than billionaire Woody Johnson. So in all of 300 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: these cases, these women are successful, they have their own careers, 301 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: they're very you know, they have their own money, they 302 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to marry a richer guy. And they're 303 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: also super hot and show the reporter for the New 304 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: York Post rights designer labels, bespoke beauty treatments and extravagant 305 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: holidays are still part of the package. But so are 306 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: advanced degrees and business startups. So yeah, okay, so now 307 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: we're celebrating you know, beauty, full successful, wealthy people. Good 308 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 1: job women, you've gotten a degree, and you're hot still 309 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: and you're hot, and it's super important. Uh. But Gretchen 310 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: Sisson over a bitch is like, wait, wait a second, wait, 311 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: she writes, when a Richmond marries a woman with her 312 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: own slew of degrees and accomplishments and perhaps even her 313 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: own wealth, he's not marrying a trophy. He's marrying a peer. 314 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: When you label somebody a trophy wife, that turns even 315 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: the most ambitious and accomplished of American women into objects 316 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: merely by virtue of becoming a wife. And so even 317 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: though you had Julie Connelly in Fortune Magazine, saying, no, 318 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: she's she's not a moose head on the wall. Gretchen 319 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,120 Speaker 1: Sison is saying, no, you guys, the way that you're 320 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,719 Speaker 1: talking about these women is very much so that they 321 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: are still moose heads on the wall. Yeah. But if 322 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: we move away though, from trend pieces and think pieces, 323 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: Caroline and look at sociological data, more pieces pieces, data pieces, 324 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: our favorite lines of pieces. Do these kinds of heteronormative 325 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: beauty status exchanges really exist? We're gonna answer that question 326 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. Well, 327 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: in the first half of the podcast, we we painted. 328 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: We painted a few very interesting portraits for you that 329 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: involved moose heads. Uh. It evolved wealthy women, both those 330 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: with higher education and those without, those running the world 331 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: with their high powered businesses, and those not um and 332 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: you know, the older gentlemen that they were marrying. Um. 333 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: But as Kristen and I hinted at, let's let's get 334 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: into some of the data pieces about what's really going 335 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: on there socially and culturally. Yeah, are there so many 336 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: women who are trading in their beauty in exchange for 337 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: economic status? Well, some research suggests yeah, totally. A two 338 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: thousand seven study in the journal Human Nature on engagement 339 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: ring costs and Men and Women's Income found that men 340 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: marrying younger women spent more on rings, and they also 341 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: highlighted a negative correlation between a bride's age and the 342 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: amount spent on a ring, to which I say, maybe 343 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: older brides just don't care as much about having a 344 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: giant rock. Um. But the researchers also found ring price 345 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: correlated with income, which makes sense. So I mean, yeah, 346 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: so there's it's mixed. Yeah. Well, the title of the 347 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: study did tie in the whole issue of mate quality, 348 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: and so age and income are being tied into the 349 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: size of the engagement ring the quality of the mate. 350 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: It's almost like they're insinuating that the quality of the 351 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: mate is reward did by a bigger ring. Yeah, look 352 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: at your beautiful face. Here's a diamond. Well, even more 353 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: pertinent to our purposes with this old trophy wife thing. 354 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: A two thousand thirteen study in the journal Letters on 355 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: Evolutionary Behavioral Science looked at men from the richest four 356 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: hundred from the Forbes four hundred list and found, Yeah, 357 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: there seems to be a little bit of a possible 358 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: trophy wife effect. And Caroline, can you pretty share the title, 359 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: have to study because it's it's a good one. Yeah, 360 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: the Golden Years men from the Forbes four hundred have 361 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: much younger wives when remarrying than the general US population, 362 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: So kind of just like spoiler there, it's like, okay, yeah, 363 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: now they do have an average of a twenty two 364 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: year age gap when they remarry, but wealthy women do not. 365 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 1: It's not like when super wealthy high power women get 366 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: divorced and then remarried that they're marrying the twenty five 367 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: year old stead muffin. Yeah, they're not marrying the pool boy. 368 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: Chances are. But other research suggests that trophy wives are 369 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: very much an exception to the sociological rule that opposites 370 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: don't attract like attracts. Like, yeah, I thought this was 371 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: so interesting that our perception of like a Harvey Weinstein 372 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: with a Georgian Chapman, that let's just pretend that that 373 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: is a stereotypical trophy wife marriage for a second. Of 374 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: my apologies to the two people in question if they 375 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: listen to the podcast, Um, but that that stereotype and 376 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: that image is more the exception than the rule. And 377 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: speaking to NPR, Notre Dame sociologist Elizabeth McClintock calls trophy 378 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: wives a violation of the usual pattern that people select 379 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: somebody who's a whole lot like themselves, and she questions 380 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: earlier study finding saying that pretty women tend to marry 381 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: rich dudes in general because they failed to account for 382 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: her pre marital money and status. Maybe she had a 383 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: whole bunch of money before she married this guy, and 384 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: she's just pretty or beautiful or has great hair or 385 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: pretty nose or whatever because she has that money. And 386 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: people who have a lot of money and high socio 387 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: economic status can afford to invest in their appearance more. Yeah, 388 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean, and even when it comes to like children, 389 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, wealth and attractiveness tend to go hand in 390 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: hand from birth thanks to just greater access to resources. 391 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: And mcclinic says that once you control for all of 392 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: those kinds of factors, trophy wives virtually disappear. And when 393 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: she was talking to Chakra Vedantam at NPR, she was like, 394 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: you know what this actually might be saying more about 395 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: us that we're actively looking for it, that we are 396 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 1: pinpointing a handful of couples so that we can create 397 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: galleries of the quote unquote new trophy wives. We're making 398 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: these trends, uh quote. People notice it when it happens, 399 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: and they don't notice it when it doesn't happen. Yeah. 400 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: And Eli Finkel, who's a psychologist at Northwestern University, told 401 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: New York Magazine that assuming that the importance of beauty 402 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: and status is gendered may cause researchers to overlook men's 403 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: attractiveness and women's says to economic resources. And he really 404 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: praised McClintock, and this is in the Atlantic, and he 405 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: said that women aren't really out for men with more 406 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: wealth than themselves, nor are men looking for women who 407 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: outshine them in beauty. Rather heartening lee, he says, people 408 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: really are looking for compatibility and companionship. That is the rule. 409 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: That is how life tends to go. The people who 410 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: are like those Russian women that we cited earlier in 411 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: the podcast who were taking classes to learn how to 412 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: snag a rich man, those are the exception. Yeah. And 413 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: it's also a vast oversimplification to just boil it down 414 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: to exchanging beauty for status, because mcclinic talks about how 415 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: like this data on beauty and status gets really messy, 416 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: really fast when you start to account for things like 417 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: women's beauty regiments. We are likelier to try to pay 418 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: more attention to our parents and make ourselves more beautiful 419 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: versus men. Also things like the gender wage gap. We 420 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: start out with a little bit of a power and 421 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: balance in the pocketbook to begin with. And then also 422 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: again how status endows attractiveness. We are likelier to find 423 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: people who are wealthier, who have more influence as being 424 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: more attractive. But you know what that made me think of, 425 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: especially when you mentioned women's beauty regimens and you know, 426 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: focus on appearance and stuff like that we haven't talked about. 427 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: And a lot of the data out there doesn't talk 428 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: about the concept of a trophy spouse or partner among 429 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: gay men or lesbian women. Um, And yet the trade 430 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: off there would be is a really handsome shiny man 431 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 1: going to look for an equally handsome shiny man if 432 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: they're both wealthy. You know what, how does that apply 433 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: to lesbians? Like, how do we extrapolate that data? Yeah, 434 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: it's a very heteronormative trope. And reading this did remind 435 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: me Caroline of Behind the Candelabra, the HBO film which 436 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: I highly recommend. It's incredibly entertaining. Um, it's sort of 437 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: a biopic on Liberaci played by Michael Douglas and this 438 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: much younger man played by Matt Damon who he takes 439 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: under his wing. And I mean, obviously this is a 440 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: while back, so they're you know, having to sort of 441 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: have a more of a closeted um gay relationship. But 442 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: it's very much like sort of a trophy trophy boy 443 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: in that sense. Yeah. I mean the reality of the 444 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote trophy wife and the stereotype of the trophy wife, 445 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: they're very thick things. And I mean, I just I 446 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: would be interested to learn about though, the concept of 447 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: the trophy spouse, partner or just you know, hook up 448 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: partner um in in gay male culture or lesbian culture. 449 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: One thing though, pop culturally too that also just popped 450 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: into my head is how the trophy wife stereotype is 451 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: played with also on Modern Family, with Sophia Vergara's character, 452 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: where she always obviously intentionally upturns our assumption that she's 453 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: just with Ja for his money, and over and over 454 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: and over again it's reinforced that no, they really do 455 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: have this bond and she really does love him, and 456 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: he really does love her and Manny and their new son, 457 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: and they make it kind of a sweet thing and 458 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: that's so rare to see of like a humanized quote 459 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: unquote trophy wife. But that leads us though to the 460 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: newest trophy wife question that people are asking of whether 461 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: trophy husbands are the new trophy wives. Yeah, people, this 462 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: is kind of like stopped trying to make fetch happen. 463 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: People are really trying and have really been trying to 464 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: make trophy husband a thing, but nobody can really agree 465 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: on what what makes a trophy husband? Do you define 466 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: a trophy husband in light of what a trophy wife 467 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: stereotype is, so that he's handsome and and maybe a 468 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: little dumb and you know, a status symbol for the woman. 469 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: He's just something you hang on the wall next to 470 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: your sparkling necklaces, you know. Or is a trophy husband 471 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: being defined in light of what a woman might want? 472 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: So he he cooks and does all the chores while 473 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: you go off to your high powered job and make 474 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: all the money. So he his trophy husband in that sense. 475 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: Is a wife a housewife? Well let's back up for 476 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: a moment, because in terms of trying to make trophy 477 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: husband happen. In fact, Caroline in nine, when Fortune Magazine 478 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: editor Julie Connolly was busy coining trophy wife, she was like, 479 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, let's let's investigate trophy husbands too, and it 480 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: was a total flop. She told William Sapphire at The 481 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: New York Times that there's a bimbo quality to trophy 482 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: and that doesn't translate into the male image. She says, 483 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: a trophy husband would be a CEO or really powerful guy, 484 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: not some stud muffin. Yeah. She writes that with the 485 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: with the description of a woman as being a trophy wife, 486 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, bim bonic is implied, and the whole being 487 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: accomplished on her own thing is sort of secondary. It's 488 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: not even the main definition. But um, when you apply 489 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: a trophy in whatever since to a man, it's always complimentary. Yeah. So, 490 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: un Fortune Magazine has really been hitting this hard for 491 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: a while. They really seem to be the champions of 492 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: trying to make fetch slash trophy husband happen. Because in 493 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: two thousand two, Fortune Magazine is like, Okay, you know what, 494 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: let's let's try this trophy husband thing again. So they 495 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: write this huge feature piece about these really powerful women 496 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: in the corporate world who have what they call trophy husbands, 497 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: and the article states call him what you will, house husband, 498 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: stay at home dad, domestic engineer, but credit him was 499 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: setting aside his own career by dropping out, retiring early, 500 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: or going part time, so that his wife's career might 501 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: flourish and their family might thrive. Behind a great woman 502 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: at work, there's often a great man at home. He 503 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 1: is the new trophy husband. But is this really socially accepted. 504 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we're still working on it. The article points 505 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: out that like, hey, five years ago, I couldn't get 506 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: anybody to talk to me about this, and now people 507 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: are coming out of the woodwork being like, yeah, that's 508 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: kind of a secret. If you're a high powered woman 509 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: and a high powered job and you have kids, you've 510 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: got somebody at home, you know, whether it's a partner 511 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: or a spouse who's taken care of stuff. But but 512 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: the big difference though, with trophy husband, he's usually not 513 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: the second or the third or the fourth spouse. He's 514 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: the guy who's always been there. Just at some point 515 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: in the relationship they were like, you know what, we 516 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: have all of these things, all these plates that were spending, 517 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: one of which is kids, and someone's got to take 518 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: care of the kids. And guess what, I'm the lady, 519 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: and I happened to be making bookoo bucks, so it 520 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,479 Speaker 1: makes more sense for you to stay home, which just 521 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: sounds like a really wise, equitable set up. Yeah, it 522 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: just sounds like it's an evolved social and family structure, 523 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: and not that it's like, oh, somebody need we need 524 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: to give him a trophy for being a trophy husband. Yeah, 525 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: I mean trophy husbands in this sense at least, are 526 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: really just like good dudes who aren't scared of having 527 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: female bread winners exactly. But there was one observation too 528 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: in that feature piece that made me cringe and says 529 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: so much about how much gendered ideology is packed into 530 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: the stereotype, because they say, these women are not who 531 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: you think they are. Yes, they're tough and ambitious and competitive, 532 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: but they're not ball busters and their husbands aren't whimps 533 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: that they even have to make that point, Caroline, is 534 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: it says a lot. It says a lot. It says 535 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: a lot about where we are, which is not there yet. 536 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: Wherever there is, we haven't gotten there yet. Well, keep 537 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: in mind though this was just in two thousand two 538 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: because old fortune came a knock, and again this year 539 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, they're like, hey, you know what, forget 540 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: what we said earlier. We got a new idea about 541 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: what trophy husbands really are. And it's has a lot 542 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: to do with George Clooney. Right. They say that trophy 543 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: husbands are important men in their own right, so very 544 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: like good for you attitude, who don't mind being eclipsed 545 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: on occasion. He's a multidimensional status symbol in a high 546 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: powered relationship between equals, so we're lifting him onto our 547 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: onto our shoulders and carrying him out into the street 548 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: for a ticker tape parade. Well notable too that they're equals, 549 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: but again going back to Gretchen's Siston's point, if they're equals, 550 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: then why do we need to make one or the 551 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: other this object? Yeah, and I mean it also goes 552 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: back to Elizabeth McClintock's research that like attracts like, and 553 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: it is normal. We just don't realize that it is 554 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: normal that two super rich people would get together. Too, 555 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: super smart or super funny or super attractive people would 556 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: end up together. But when to like Hottie mccotterson's are 557 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: walking down the street together. You're just like, yeah, whatever, 558 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: that's too hot people. You don't assume anything about them 559 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: just because they're too hot people. I mean, you might 560 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: assume a couple of things. But anyway, when you do 561 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: see that older man and the younger beautiful woman, that's 562 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: when you start to put all these assumptions together that 563 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: they are not equals, and you just start to assume 564 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: that the woman is some bimbo who's played her cards 565 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: right and landed herself a rich husband. Well, I think, 566 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: in general, and this also cuts across orientations, we have 567 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: mistrust for large age gaps in romantic relationships. There's usually 568 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: that that assumption that something is a miss somebody's lying 569 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: has issues. Um But I also thought it was kind 570 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: of funny that in that most recent Fortune magazine Trophy 571 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: husband feature that the examples offered were mostly actors. So 572 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: you have George Clooney, Joseph Gordon Levitt, who was married 573 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: to a woman in the tech industry, and Eddie Redman, 574 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: who recently won an Oscar for his portrayal of Stephen 575 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: Hawking in the Theory of Everything, who is married to 576 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: a super successful career woman as well. So I mean, 577 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: and the thing is, some of these trophy husband pieces 578 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 1: want to like celebrate it as a sign of like 579 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: feminist victory and equality, but it's not at all. That's 580 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: totally misinterpreting and mingling feminism. And again the question of 581 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: why does one one party have to be objectified? Why 582 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: can't they just be Oh, their power couple, they're equals, 583 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,479 Speaker 1: they have their own things going on. Cool, you worked 584 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: it out, you found a person. Yeah, it's it is 585 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: way more of like a like a person to person 586 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: issues than a general society commentary on feminism. It's more like, yes, excellent, 587 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: good for you. You found someone who you can fit 588 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: together with like a puzzle piece, and your lives will 589 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: be hopefully harmonious. Congratulations more so than like ha victory 590 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: house husbands for everyone. Yes, house husbands have effectively closed 591 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: a gender wage gap. I mean, in that case, I 592 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: would give them a trophy. That's true. Um, well do 593 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: we want to hear from listeners now what kind of 594 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: questions do we have? Does anyone out there consider themselves 595 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 1: to be in a trophy type dynamic or have you 596 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: been accused of it? And what do you think though 597 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: about the idea of, perhaps in a more concerted kind 598 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: of way, attempting to trade looks for status, because I 599 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: know some women personally who see no problem without whatsoever 600 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: and try to cast it in a feminist light as well, 601 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: and other people obviously who think exactly the opposite, that 602 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: it's the worst possible thing that a woman in particular 603 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: could do. Let us know all of your thoughts. Mom 604 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address, 605 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: and you can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast 606 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 607 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. I have a 608 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: letter here from Haley about our art her story week 609 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: on the podcast. She says, Hey, ladies, you would not 610 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: believe how excited I was when I saw that you 611 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: guys were doing a podcast on the female nude. I'm 612 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: an anthropology and archaeology student with a minor engender and 613 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: women studies, and literally just finished writing a paper all 614 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: about the herculaneum women. Herculaneum women are a style of 615 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: sculpture which originated in Greece, but we're adopted by Roman 616 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: elite women and were used for about six hundred years 617 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: in complete contrast to what you guys were talking about. 618 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: This style shows women in the same pose, but with 619 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: a lot of clothing three layers to be exact. As 620 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: I found in my paper, the repetition of this style 621 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: reflects the limited roles which Roman women had in society, 622 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 1: while also expressing their wealthy status. A funny note, though, 623 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: is that despite all of their layers, you can still 624 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: see the outline of their bodies, kind of defeating the 625 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: purpose of all that fabric. And she attached some pictures 626 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: and I have to agree with her that, yeah, it 627 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: doesn't there's a lot of layers being draped and everything, 628 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: but it definitely looks pretty gauzy, like you can definitely 629 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: still see a belly button and I think there's a 630 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: nip over there, a nip um. But yeah, oh I 631 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: love it. I love hearing from our archaeology and art 632 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: minded people out there. Thank you, Haley Well. I have 633 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 1: a letter also from Jenny about art her story week, 634 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: and she said so much lovely information. I was lucky 635 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: enough to travel to Italy for the summer I turned 636 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: eighteen as part of my voice training at university. Some 637 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: of our fellow travelers were artists and they're awe and 638 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: joy at David and La Pieta and many other sculptures 639 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: encouraged me to learn more about them. The experience of 640 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: traveling to Europe at that age gave me great confidence 641 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: in what I can do as a single woman. I 642 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,239 Speaker 1: later joined the Peace Corps and was assigned to San 643 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: Juan de Lea, May, Nicaragua. There's a sandstone quarry nearby 644 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: and nine to ten studios in town. It's still a 645 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: machismo culture and men were the main artists and create 646 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: the great concepts, but whole families do the rough, initial 647 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: chisel work. It was a great way for me to 648 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: connect with them and to be able to say that 649 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: I've seen David and they were amazed that he's fourteen 650 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: feet tall. Every day since then, I give thanks that 651 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: I was born in a time in place where I 652 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: have had the opportunity to pursue my dreams with such 653 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: fewer limits than American women before me, or than some 654 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: women in other cultures today. Have thanks again for your 655 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 1: great podcast to keep me thinking well. Thank you Jenny 656 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: for your letter, and thanks to everybody who's written to us. 657 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot Com is our 658 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: email address. And for links to all of our social 659 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 660 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: including this one with more information on trophy wives so 661 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: you can follow along. Head on over to Stuff Mom 662 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and 663 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how staff Works dot 664 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: com