WEBVTT - External Exam - Triflers Need Not Apply with Illustrator & Author, Lisa Perrin 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:12.879 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.239 on our podcast on Mother Knows Death and in the 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.040 Gross Room, we've recently been talking about a lot of 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.840 stories where there have been people who have been poisoning 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.000 their loved ones. So I thought it would be great 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.920 today if we talk to author Lisa Peren and she 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.839 is the author of the League of Lady Poisoners. Welcome Lisa, 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:40.400 thanks for being here today. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:41.960 Oh, thank you. That's my pleasure. 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.040 So Lisa's book is really awesome and we'll get into 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.599 it a little bit more later, but it takes us 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.960 on a journey through the history of poison and the 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:56.000 women who use them to kill. So for any true 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.800 crime junkie, it is a really awesome book. In the book, 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.960 you say that there's the thought of poisoning makes you paranoid, 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:09.000 which it does to me as well. And I don't 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:13.120 think that people really think about it. But so many 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.560 times a day or even a week, you eat prepared food, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:18.560 even if it's just going to the store to get 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:24.000 coffee or fast food, and it's not really on anybody's 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.319 mind usually that how vulnerable that we are all the 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.560 time when someone else a stranger especially is making food 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.200 for us or in some of these cases. 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:33.960 A loved one. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.319 But I wanted to before we get started, I wanted 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:40.319 to tell you a story of how I kind of 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.600 always have that on my mind because something like this 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.760 happened to me. Oh so I had like a friend, 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:49.640 I want to say friend because she wasn't really a 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.720 friend anymore and she was a little crazy. But back 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.800 in the day, she was making these like weed edibles 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.960 that before you could buy them, yes, And she had 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.480 made me a cookie and I took it from her 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:06.960 because she was a really she was a really good baker, 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.720 and I just was like, oh cool. 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:10.720 I'll try it. You bake really well. 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:16.959 And it made me so sick, like I was convinced 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:19.959 that I was poisoned, seriously, Like I had to call 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.280 my husband and Tom to come home from work because 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.840 I was I was shaking and just it was bad. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.960 And I'm still not convinced that it was weed, but 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.320 that yeah, it's not. So that was like the first 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.560 time that I thought, well, you really have to be 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.119 careful of like people could just do that that quick 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:41.560 to you because you let your guard down with food 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:46.720 and stuff and after you were researching this book. Obviously, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.840 you did it change your perspective on this from how 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.040 you felt before versus now. 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:53.880 Oh? 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.040 Absolutely, And I'm so sorry that happened to you. That 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:57.960 sounds really scary and alarming. 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:00.760 It's kind of It was really scary at the time, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.240 but it's like a hilarious story to tell now, especially 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:04.840 because I me and my husband come home. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:05.440 From work in it. 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:10.480 He was so mad, you ate a cookie. Yeah, no, 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.240 that's that's amazing. And yeah, I will say it definitely 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.160 opened my eyes. And I think I say this in 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.399 my introduction for the book, that it made me paranoid 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.200 and new and interesting ways. I think there is a 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.560 lot of implicit trust just built into our system, Like 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.520 I don't think many of us would think anything of 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.680 a cookie a friend made for us, And part of 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.560 me wants to say we shouldn't. We shouldn't trust most people, 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.320 and most things are inherently good and you know, don't 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.120 have a nefarious intent behind them. But it was definitely 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.520 a sobering reminder for me that right we don't really 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.160 know the story of who handled this, where it came from. 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.160 I will say it's impacted me more now that I'm 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.200 becoming The Poison Lady, which was not necessarily what I 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:52.520 said out to do. And I wrote this book and 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.280 now folks are like, oh, we can't invite you to 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.680 our dinner party, or oh, don't eat that Lisa made it. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:57.960 Oh that's great. 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.760 But yeah, it's definitely it's and it makes me think 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:05.040 a lot more about like the vulnerability when we eat 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.920 and drink something we didn't prepare ourselves in new ways. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:10.839 I'm definitely aware of it in ways I never thought. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.360 I never even considered it before. 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:13.880 Yeah, exactly. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.359 And it and another scary thing too, is that it 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:18.640 doesn't even have to be intentional. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:20.440 Oh it could it. 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.000 Like I don't know, if you've been hearing on the 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.039 news lately that they're like children have been getting lead 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.400 poisoning from the apple sauce pouches hearts, and it's just 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.240 like you just don't you don't ever know, like and 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.599 you're given this to your kid. It came from a factory. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.040 They don't know if it's like from a cinnamon or something. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.640 But it's no joke, right. 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.680 Actually, I was thinking a lot about accidental poisonings, and 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.159 that's actually something that comes up quite a lot in 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.279 my research. Some of the worst, most large scale poisonings 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.000 have been pure accidents or you know, some kind of 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.040 something that happened in the factory. There was sort of 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.520 a famous one in nineteenth century England called the Bradford 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:02.080 Street Sweets poisoning, where there were two bags and one 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.359 was sugar and one was arsenic and they looked the same, 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.760 and I believe and this whole company made these sweets 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.680 with unfortunately with the arsenic on accident and a large 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.080 number of people because this was like a street vendor 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.240 selling candy, became sick and it was a total accident. 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:21.360 So yes, there's the intentional ones and these the accidental ones. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.080 Oh so they're they're both worth keeping in mind. 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:27.400 This actually makes me think of my second story of 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:28.800 when I was a most accidental. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.880 Oh no, it's where you have more than one. 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.359 It's it's it's this is like another one that sucked 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.120 at the time. But my friend and I were at 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:38.360 a really good restaurant in Philly, like one of the 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.359 higher end ones, and we got some fancy dessert and 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.560 you know that sometimes they'll like put lavender in something 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:50.520 and me too, so and and like my my husband 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.839 hates it because he thinks like it tastes like Soapuch. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:54.520 I knew that he was going to say that. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.920 Yeah, like a lot of people think it tastes like soap, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:57.720 but I don't. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:58.159 I love it. 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.760 But I'm eating this dessert with my friend. We were 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.440 sharing it and it came out and it had you 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.960 know how sometimes they make like sugar sculptures and stuff. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:07.680 It did have like a little bit of a weird 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:08.880 machine to it. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.880 And I ate it, and I was like, this tastes 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:12.719 like soap. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.360 Like it did taste like soap. Yes, literally, like. 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:19.440 Like don like a spoonful of down dischittution or something. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.880 And and yeah, sure enough, we returned it to the 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.360 kitchen and and it was they had mistakenly like put 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:28.719 it instead of a honey drizzle. 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.000 Oh like whatever, And yeah, wow. 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.520 And like the story that you're talking about that happened 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:37.800 a long time ago, with the arsenic and the sugar 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.719 being mixed. There's there's like really stringent rules as things 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.360 being labeled correctly, yes, and not being stored anywhere near each. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.240 Other, because that happened exactly. 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.080 And unfortunately some of these terrible accidents do lead to 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.320 well unfortunately they lead to these kind of new legalities 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:57.440 and new provisions that protect people because we don't want 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.599 that to happen again. That was awful, And now it's 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.640 like things do need to be really clearly labeled, and 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.040 you wouldn't keep a serious poison in the same place 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.360 where you're keeping the ingredients for cooking or baking. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:09.720 But unfortunately, the way we get there is because it 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.880 has to happen, and then we learn, and then we 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:12.480 learned from it. 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.440 But I'm so sorry about the dish soap and the cookie. 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.080 Oh whatever. I'm alive to talk though, to tell the tale. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.119 So do you have now that you've written this book, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.120 do you have people like coming up to you all 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.240 the time and telling you stories like this? Do you 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:29.840 have any good stories to share? 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:31.840 As far as that goes. 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:33.240 I will say that is one of the weird things 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.240 people reach out to me now to tell me, like, oh, 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.880 my grandmother poisoned a guy, or like, we'll send me 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.760 the newspaper clipping and like look in like the nineteen thirties, 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.160 my grandma poisoned my grandpa. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:44.760 And I'm like, oh my, I don't know if I'm 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.400 the person who should be telling that too, but that's 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.200 quite a story. Yeah, I think it isn't been. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.160 For the record, I don't want to scare your listeners 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.680 too much. Poisoning is a pretty rare crime as far 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.720 as crimes go, but I think I was surprised at 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.160 how often it did come up and that people did 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.480 have a connection. Oh I did know someone who that 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.720 happened too. So yeah, people are definitely starting to reach 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.520 out to me as my reputation as the Poisoned Lady 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:10.400 continues to grow. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.320 That's right, that's cool though. I think that's like a 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:20.560 good reputation. So obviously you're a true crime junkie, and what, like, 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.760 what was it about this crime of poisoning versus any 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.040 other crime that you were so intrigued by that you 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:28.040 wanted to write a. 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:28.720 Book about it. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.840 That's such a great question. I think there's so many 0:08:31.920 --> 0:08:34.200 I'm like you said, I'm a true crime junkie. I 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.800 listened to Dateline, to like Fall Asleep, and I listened 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.480 to a lot of wonderful true crime podcasts. But I 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.400 think there's something about poisoning that is different for me 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.560 than any other type of specifically of murder, because it's 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.880 just not as physical, it's not as violent, it's not 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:54.000 as gruesome. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.319 I think there is this weird disconnect. 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.880 You can be you can poison someone and not be 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:00.679 in the room, not be in this state, not be 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.320 in the country. Like there's a weird distance that I 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.800 find really fascinating about it. And specifically what intrigued me 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.760 the most was the connection to women as the practitioners 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.400 of it. Whereas when we think of murder, and rightly so, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.720 we tend to think of male criminals. And that's because 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:21.080 like something incredible like ninety percent of all homicides worldwide 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.360 are committed by men. But there is this sort of 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.600 sociological we have this connection where we think of poisoning 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.600 as something that women do, and that it's more duplicitous 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.880 because women may not have necessarily, you know, they not 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.480 want to strangle or stab or something that's much more 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.480 visceral and much more physical. But it's sort of this 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.720 just a drop Like I have this image of like 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.480 just like a dainty drop out of like a ring 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.160 with a hollow like container, and you just drop it in. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.680 And there's there's something so fascinating about that story to me. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.920 And then there's a story that we've been told and 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.000 that we see a lot in fiction and in TV 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:01.920 and movies, and and then there is the reality, which 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.520 is actually not always the same thing and not always 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.000 lined up. But I think poison, to me was a 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:13.240 really interesting weapon, and I was really fascinated by who 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.000 we associate those crimes with and then why. 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.559 That's that's cool because I think that in forensics especially, 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:25.160 and this could be with homicides, suicides, accidents, everything, there 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.360 is a big discrepancy between male and female and like 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.400 what like females don't tend to shoot themselves in the 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.280 face or something like that, just because there's like all 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:39.360 these like little cool things. So I definitely respect that 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.000 that's what got you into it, because it is really intriguing. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.719 Some of the news stories that we've covered recently on 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:51.520 my podcast have have been really and in on my website, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.559 the Grosser Room. One particular one that has been horrendous 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.200 that has to do with poisonings. I'm not sure if 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.800 you heard of this one, but there was a couple 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.640 that were living in Utah and the wife had poisoned 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.800 her husband with fentanyl put it in his mosque amnole, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.800 And that's like whatever that itself Isn't that Isn't that horrendous, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.000 but the facts afterwards that come up about things that 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.720 she was searching on the computer. But on top of that, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:22.520 it within a year after she murdered her husband and 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.880 the father of her children, she decided to write a 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.600 children's book with her children about dealing with the death 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:30.160 of a parent. 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:36.080 Yes, I did several people send me this r believe me, Like, yeah, exactly, yes, And. 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.520 That's what I was wondering with your research, Like, obviously, 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:45.320 anytime you kill somebody, it's not cool, but but like, 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.720 have you did you come across one case that you 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.760 were like, man, that was really messed up. 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:51.120 That person's like sick. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.080 Oh oh, yes, definitely. 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:55.880 And I will say one of the things I really 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:57.679 wanted to focus on in this book was sort of 0:11:57.800 --> 0:11:59.640 the nuance of it all and really look at the 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.360 culture context. And I think that there's some stories that 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.400 are more sympathetic than others, where you might understand like, wow, 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:07.960 this was a woman who was in a really impossible 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.559 or abusive situation and she was acting out of desperation. 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.520 But then on the other side, there are definitely the 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.240 ones who are like, Nope, that was a monster. That 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.760 was a monster behaving monstrously and yeah, And I think 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:19.319 one of the things that I talk about is that 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.880 we don't associate these crimes, you know, violent crimes with women, 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.600 but women are still capable of it. And unfortunately, there's 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.080 some women in this book that really exemplify that. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.640 What it made me think of, though, is not the. 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.080 Most messed up one, but I have a case in 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.800 this book of a woman in Argentina whose name was 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.920 Ya Morano, and just the seeking of attention for it afterwards, 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.000 like with writing that children's picture book and like putting 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.080 their grief out there in a very public way, Like 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:49.160 she poisoned three of her friends for money and they died, 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.360 and afterwards she became this big TV celebrity and made 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.000 all of these appearances on TV shows in Argentina. My 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.319 favorite was there was a cooking show where the cost 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.360 famously ate a piece of cake that she made, like 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.840 on live on TV. And I'm just like, this's just 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.720 so fascinating to me, like the crime and sometimes what 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.520 the behavior is afterwards and how that transforms. And I 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.240 was just thinking of that, like the children's picture booked 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:15.720 when you said that, but in terms of one that's 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:20.040 just like absolutely like heinous. I think The first one 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.160 that comes to my mind is Bella Ganeth, who is 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:28.720 a woman in like the Victorian era in Indiana, And 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.280 there's a lot more to her story, but I'll just 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.320 summarize really briefly. Who basically put out an ad in 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:40.000 the newspaper like a wealthy widow seeks a husband and 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.760 plan of adjoining fortunes. My favorite line the whole thing 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.200 is triflers need not apply, which I want to have 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:48.600 embroidered on a pillow and just having like the front 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:52.040 of my home. Triflers need not apply. And she basically 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.000 sort of was reaching out to these lonely men who 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.280 were looking for companionship, which is not unlike what we 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.240 still experience today with a lot of these dates eating 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.240 scams and catfishing. And she told them to come to 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.480 her home in Indiana, tell no one where they were going, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.320 and to see their life savings, into their undergarments, bring 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.760 everything they had. They were going to live this beautiful 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.479 life together. And she just murdered all of them and 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.280 and like buried them in her hog lot on her farm, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.120 poison them and then bludgeon them and then forgive me, 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.480 it's gruesome, cut them into pieces, and yeah, and then 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.320 buried them. And the best part, and my best, I 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.720 mean most awful part of this story is that in 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.080 the end, when she was close to getting caught, she 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.320 set the whole barn on fire that she lived in 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.720 with her children. And there's a big mystery of if 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.320 she escaped or if she went down with the fire, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:47.280 and I won't spoil that for you all, but yeah, 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:49.440 that's that's one that just sticks in my memories. 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.320 You can't dream that up. Truth is stranger than fiction. 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.720 It's just unbelievable. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:58.000 And yeah, that's how I feel with this this particular case. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.840 It's like she was she was due to close on 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.600 a house the day after she poisoned him, and she did. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.320 Could you imagine like someone that you love in your 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.560 family dying and just being like, yeah, well I have 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.760 this booked tomorrow, I have to go. And then she 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.360 had a party to celebrate the closing of the house. 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.480 Yeah, and that tells you a lot. 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.200 Yeah, It's it's just and and I just hate in 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:24.440 the news they have to be like, well, she hasn't 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.960 been convicted yet, and I'm like, come on, what else 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:27.480 could this be. 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.160 Let's no, Sometimes the facts speak for themselves and the 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.480 behavior that's so interesting right to going. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.760 Yeah, I had it on the agenda, so I'm still 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:37.400 gonna do it. 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:39.480 Yeah, exactly. All right. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.200 So another case that we talked about, and I'm I'm 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.320 sure you've heard about this one too, because all your 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.520 friends are sending these cases all the time now. But 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.960 exactly there was a this is actually a man, believe 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:53.440 it or not, there was there was a couple in 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.040 the news this year of men poisoning their wives. Yes, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.360 and this was a Mayo clinic pharmacist. So he was 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.239 not only a man, but he was also a poison specialist. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.840 He specialized in poison and he went through a lot 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:12.040 of trouble of researching certain kinds of drugs that would 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.880 never really be shown up on routine toxicology, and he 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:22.080 chose the gout medication and yeah, exactly. And afterwards it 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:23.960 was like it was found that he was looking up 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.760 like what dose would be lethal with her weight and 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.200 everything like that. But did you in all the cases 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.320 that you researched, and it doesn't even have to be ones, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:34.720 because obviously you probably left a lot out of the 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.440 book too, but did you have any cases that came 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.120 up that it was a person that was like a 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:45.720 specialist in whatever they used to poison someone with. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.640 Yeah, totally, And I will just clarify quickly, and I 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:51.880 think this was sort of the things shift in my 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.040 research is that it's really not true that women poison 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.440 people more than men, actually, because men commit murder so 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.800 much more than women do. They use every weapon, including poison, 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.520 more often than women. So it's that at first I went, oh, no, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.800 my thesis, and then I realized, oh, it's actually really 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.719 much more interesting to explore this if there isn't as 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:13.399 much truth to it. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.200 So yes, you'll definitely see cases. 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:17.679 Of men doing it, also for the same reasons we 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.960 ascribed it to women, because it's something that's easier to 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:23.840 get away with. Potentially you could pass it off as 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.520 natural causes or diseases. You don't have to have the 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.640 same physical connection to harming a person. You can sort 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.960 of disconnect from it in your mind. But yes, in 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.640 terms of are there specialists whoever take advantage of their 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.320 skills and specialty. Absolutely, there's a whole genre of murderers. 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.320 And I'm sure you've come across this before, sort of 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.159 the angels of mercy, which is folks who are specifically 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.720 in the medical profession, who use their access to medications 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.320 and to vulnerable patients. 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:53.000 Unfortunately. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.359 Oh yeah, one of my friends what great Friends at 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.600 Amy Locker, and she's from the Netflix series. 0:17:59.320 --> 0:17:59.920 The Good Nurse. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.320 Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, I like that's her life 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.080 story that she one of her friends was poisoning his patients. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:08.760 Yeah, yes, it's nuts. 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:09.280 Yeah yeah. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.120 And I have a few of those, specifically in the book, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.280 where it's someone who is in the medical profession or 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.600 in a caregiving situation to an older person because they 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.600 have access to medications and we're just in a situation 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.280 of inherent trust with our doctors and caregivers. We assume 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.920 if a doctor handed me something to drink this, I 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.640 would say, okay, you know, I don't think I would 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.680 actually guess it. And unfortunately that can give people who 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:41.720 have nefarious intention a really dangerous opportunity to enact scary things. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:43.600 Yeah exactly. 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.120 Wait, I have a really funny well you might think 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.439 this is funny, but my speaking of men poisoning, So 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.320 there was another case last year or too of a 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.159 dentist who used arsenic actually to poison his wife. But 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.800 in both cases, that one and the Mayo clinic pharmacists. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.240 They both used smoothies to poison their wives. 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.119 Smoothie quite smoothie. 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.560 Oh, And I was joking around with my husband and 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.040 I was like, you know what, I would be so 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.840 suspicious if you handed me a smoothie, if you could 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.440 even figure out, like where the blender was in our 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.000 house and how to put the ingredients together to even 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.160 make me a smoothie, I would be like, what's up 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:22.439 with this? 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.840 Where did you find that? 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:26.879 Okay? 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.199 So that so one of the last cases that you 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.840 presented in the book was in nineteen fifty five, and 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:40.720 obviously there has been like evolution in poisonings because now 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.399 every single case that I've spoke about today and that 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.720 ones that have been happening over the past couple of years, 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.840 there's like associated Google searches. Yes, And I love how 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.320 in the book you mentioned that your Google searches are 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.560 probably like major oh suspicious. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.080 Oh, I'm sure the FBI is like aware of me. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.359