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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy

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Speaker 1: on our podcast on Mother Knows Death and in the

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Speaker 1: Gross Room, we've recently been talking about a lot of

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Speaker 1: stories where there have been people who have been poisoning

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Speaker 1: their loved ones. So I thought it would be great

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Speaker 1: today if we talk to author Lisa Peren and she

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Speaker 1: is the author of the League of Lady Poisoners. Welcome Lisa,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here today.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. That's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: So Lisa's book is really awesome and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: it a little bit more later, but it takes us

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Speaker 1: on a journey through the history of poison and the

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Speaker 1: women who use them to kill. So for any true

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Speaker 1: crime junkie, it is a really awesome book. In the book,

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Speaker 1: you say that there's the thought of poisoning makes you paranoid,

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Speaker 1: which it does to me as well. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think that people really think about it. But so many

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Speaker 1: times a day or even a week, you eat prepared food,

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Speaker 1: even if it's just going to the store to get

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Speaker 1: coffee or fast food, and it's not really on anybody's

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Speaker 1: mind usually that how vulnerable that we are all the

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Speaker 1: time when someone else a stranger especially is making food

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Speaker 1: for us or in some of these cases.

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Speaker 3: A loved one.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to before we get started, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to tell you a story of how I kind of

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Speaker 1: always have that on my mind because something like this

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Speaker 1: happened to me. Oh so I had like a friend,

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Speaker 1: I want to say friend because she wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: friend anymore and she was a little crazy. But back

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Speaker 1: in the day, she was making these like weed edibles

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Speaker 1: that before you could buy them, yes, And she had

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Speaker 1: made me a cookie and I took it from her

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Speaker 1: because she was a really she was a really good baker,

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Speaker 1: and I just was like, oh cool.

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Speaker 3: I'll try it. You bake really well.

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Speaker 1: And it made me so sick, like I was convinced

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Speaker 1: that I was poisoned, seriously, Like I had to call

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Speaker 1: my husband and Tom to come home from work because

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Speaker 1: I was I was shaking and just it was bad.

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Speaker 1: And I'm still not convinced that it was weed, but

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Speaker 1: that yeah, it's not. So that was like the first

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Speaker 1: time that I thought, well, you really have to be

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Speaker 1: careful of like people could just do that that quick

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Speaker 1: to you because you let your guard down with food

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Speaker 1: and stuff and after you were researching this book. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you did it change your perspective on this from how

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Speaker 1: you felt before versus now.

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I'm so sorry that happened to you. That

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Speaker 4: sounds really scary and alarming.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of It was really scary at the time,

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Speaker 1: but it's like a hilarious story to tell now, especially

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Speaker 1: because I me and my husband come home.

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Speaker 3: From work in it.

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Speaker 4: He was so mad, you ate a cookie. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: that's that's amazing. And yeah, I will say it definitely

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Speaker 4: opened my eyes. And I think I say this in

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Speaker 4: my introduction for the book, that it made me paranoid

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Speaker 4: and new and interesting ways. I think there is a

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Speaker 4: lot of implicit trust just built into our system, Like

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Speaker 4: I don't think many of us would think anything of

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Speaker 4: a cookie a friend made for us, And part of

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Speaker 4: me wants to say we shouldn't. We shouldn't trust most people,

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Speaker 4: and most things are inherently good and you know, don't

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Speaker 4: have a nefarious intent behind them. But it was definitely

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Speaker 4: a sobering reminder for me that right we don't really

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Speaker 4: know the story of who handled this, where it came from.

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Speaker 4: I will say it's impacted me more now that I'm

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Speaker 4: becoming The Poison Lady, which was not necessarily what I

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Speaker 4: said out to do. And I wrote this book and

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Speaker 4: now folks are like, oh, we can't invite you to

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Speaker 4: our dinner party, or oh, don't eat that Lisa made it.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's great.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it's definitely it's and it makes me think

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Speaker 4: a lot more about like the vulnerability when we eat

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Speaker 4: and drink something we didn't prepare ourselves in new ways.

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Speaker 4: I'm definitely aware of it in ways I never thought.

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Speaker 4: I never even considered it before.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it and another scary thing too, is that it

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Speaker 1: doesn't even have to be intentional.

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Speaker 3: Oh it could it.

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know, if you've been hearing on the

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Speaker 1: news lately that they're like children have been getting lead

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Speaker 1: poisoning from the apple sauce pouches hearts, and it's just

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Speaker 1: like you just don't you don't ever know, like and

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Speaker 1: you're given this to your kid. It came from a factory.

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Speaker 1: They don't know if it's like from a cinnamon or something.

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Speaker 1: But it's no joke, right.

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Speaker 4: Actually, I was thinking a lot about accidental poisonings, and

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Speaker 4: that's actually something that comes up quite a lot in

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Speaker 4: my research. Some of the worst, most large scale poisonings

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Speaker 4: have been pure accidents or you know, some kind of

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Speaker 4: something that happened in the factory. There was sort of

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Speaker 4: a famous one in nineteenth century England called the Bradford

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Speaker 4: Street Sweets poisoning, where there were two bags and one

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Speaker 4: was sugar and one was arsenic and they looked the same,

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Speaker 4: and I believe and this whole company made these sweets

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Speaker 4: with unfortunately with the arsenic on accident and a large

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Speaker 4: number of people because this was like a street vendor

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Speaker 4: selling candy, became sick and it was a total accident.

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Speaker 4: So yes, there's the intentional ones and these the accidental ones.

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Speaker 2: Oh so they're they're both worth keeping in mind.

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Speaker 1: This actually makes me think of my second story of

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Speaker 1: when I was a most accidental.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, it's where you have more than one.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's this is like another one that sucked

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Speaker 1: at the time. But my friend and I were at

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Speaker 1: a really good restaurant in Philly, like one of the

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Speaker 1: higher end ones, and we got some fancy dessert and

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Speaker 1: you know that sometimes they'll like put lavender in something

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Speaker 1: and me too, so and and like my my husband

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Speaker 1: hates it because he thinks like it tastes like Soapuch.

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Speaker 2: I knew that he was going to say that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a lot of people think it tastes like soap,

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Speaker 1: but I don't.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: But I'm eating this dessert with my friend. We were

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Speaker 1: sharing it and it came out and it had you

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Speaker 1: know how sometimes they make like sugar sculptures and stuff.

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Speaker 3: It did have like a little bit of a weird

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Speaker 3: machine to it.

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Speaker 1: And I ate it, and I was like, this tastes

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Speaker 1: like soap.

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Speaker 2: Like it did taste like soap. Yes, literally, like.

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Speaker 1: Like don like a spoonful of down dischittution or something.

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Speaker 1: And and yeah, sure enough, we returned it to the

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Speaker 1: kitchen and and it was they had mistakenly like put

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Speaker 1: it instead of a honey drizzle.

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Speaker 3: Oh like whatever, And yeah, wow.

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Speaker 1: And like the story that you're talking about that happened

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, with the arsenic and the sugar

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Speaker 1: being mixed. There's there's like really stringent rules as things

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Speaker 1: being labeled correctly, yes, and not being stored anywhere near each.

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Speaker 2: Other, because that happened exactly.

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Speaker 4: And unfortunately some of these terrible accidents do lead to

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Speaker 4: well unfortunately they lead to these kind of new legalities

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Speaker 4: and new provisions that protect people because we don't want

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Speaker 4: that to happen again. That was awful, And now it's

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Speaker 4: like things do need to be really clearly labeled, and

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Speaker 4: you wouldn't keep a serious poison in the same place

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Speaker 4: where you're keeping the ingredients for cooking or baking.

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Speaker 2: But unfortunately, the way we get there is because it

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Speaker 2: has to happen, and then we learn, and then we

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Speaker 2: learned from it.

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Speaker 4: But I'm so sorry about the dish soap and the cookie.

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Speaker 2: Oh whatever. I'm alive to talk though, to tell the tale.

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Speaker 1: So do you have now that you've written this book,

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Speaker 1: do you have people like coming up to you all

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Speaker 1: the time and telling you stories like this? Do you

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Speaker 1: have any good stories to share?

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Speaker 3: As far as that goes.

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Speaker 4: I will say that is one of the weird things

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Speaker 4: people reach out to me now to tell me, like, oh,

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Speaker 4: my grandmother poisoned a guy, or like, we'll send me

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Speaker 4: the newspaper clipping and like look in like the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 4: my grandma poisoned my grandpa.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh my, I don't know if I'm

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Speaker 2: the person who should be telling that too, but that's

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Speaker 2: quite a story. Yeah, I think it isn't been.

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Speaker 4: For the record, I don't want to scare your listeners

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Speaker 4: too much. Poisoning is a pretty rare crime as far

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Speaker 4: as crimes go, but I think I was surprised at

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Speaker 4: how often it did come up and that people did

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Speaker 4: have a connection. Oh I did know someone who that

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Speaker 4: happened too. So yeah, people are definitely starting to reach

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Speaker 4: out to me as my reputation as the Poisoned Lady

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Speaker 4: continues to grow.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's cool though. I think that's like a

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Speaker 1: good reputation. So obviously you're a true crime junkie, and what, like,

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Speaker 1: what was it about this crime of poisoning versus any

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Speaker 1: other crime that you were so intrigued by that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to write a.

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Speaker 3: Book about it.

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Speaker 4: That's such a great question. I think there's so many

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Speaker 4: I'm like you said, I'm a true crime junkie. I

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Speaker 4: listened to Dateline, to like Fall Asleep, and I listened

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Speaker 4: to a lot of wonderful true crime podcasts. But I

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Speaker 4: think there's something about poisoning that is different for me

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Speaker 4: than any other type of specifically of murder, because it's

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Speaker 4: just not as physical, it's not as violent, it's not

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Speaker 4: as gruesome.

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Speaker 2: I think there is this weird disconnect.

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Speaker 4: You can be you can poison someone and not be

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Speaker 4: in the room, not be in this state, not be

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Speaker 4: in the country. Like there's a weird distance that I

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Speaker 4: find really fascinating about it. And specifically what intrigued me

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Speaker 4: the most was the connection to women as the practitioners

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Speaker 4: of it. Whereas when we think of murder, and rightly so,

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Speaker 4: we tend to think of male criminals. And that's because

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Speaker 4: like something incredible like ninety percent of all homicides worldwide

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Speaker 4: are committed by men. But there is this sort of

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Speaker 4: sociological we have this connection where we think of poisoning

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Speaker 4: as something that women do, and that it's more duplicitous

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Speaker 4: because women may not have necessarily, you know, they not

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Speaker 4: want to strangle or stab or something that's much more

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Speaker 4: visceral and much more physical. But it's sort of this

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Speaker 4: just a drop Like I have this image of like

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Speaker 4: just like a dainty drop out of like a ring

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Speaker 4: with a hollow like container, and you just drop it in.

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Speaker 4: And there's there's something so fascinating about that story to me.

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Speaker 4: And then there's a story that we've been told and

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Speaker 4: that we see a lot in fiction and in TV

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Speaker 4: and movies, and and then there is the reality, which

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Speaker 4: is actually not always the same thing and not always

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Speaker 4: lined up. But I think poison, to me was a

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Speaker 4: really interesting weapon, and I was really fascinated by who

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Speaker 4: we associate those crimes with and then why.

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Speaker 1: That's that's cool because I think that in forensics especially,

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Speaker 1: and this could be with homicides, suicides, accidents, everything, there

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Speaker 1: is a big discrepancy between male and female and like

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Speaker 1: what like females don't tend to shoot themselves in the

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Speaker 1: face or something like that, just because there's like all

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Speaker 1: these like little cool things. So I definitely respect that

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Speaker 1: that's what got you into it, because it is really intriguing.

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Speaker 1: Some of the news stories that we've covered recently on

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Speaker 1: my podcast have have been really and in on my website,

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Speaker 1: the Grosser Room. One particular one that has been horrendous

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Speaker 1: that has to do with poisonings. I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: you heard of this one, but there was a couple

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Speaker 1: that were living in Utah and the wife had poisoned

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Speaker 1: her husband with fentanyl put it in his mosque amnole,

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Speaker 1: And that's like whatever that itself Isn't that Isn't that horrendous,

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Speaker 1: but the facts afterwards that come up about things that

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Speaker 1: she was searching on the computer. But on top of that,

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Speaker 1: it within a year after she murdered her husband and

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Speaker 1: the father of her children, she decided to write a

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Speaker 1: children's book with her children about dealing with the death

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Speaker 1: of a parent.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I did several people send me this r believe me, Like, yeah, exactly, yes, And.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was wondering with your research, Like, obviously,

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Speaker 1: anytime you kill somebody, it's not cool, but but like,

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Speaker 1: have you did you come across one case that you

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Speaker 1: were like, man, that was really messed up.

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Speaker 3: That person's like sick.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh, yes, definitely.

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Speaker 4: And I will say one of the things I really

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Speaker 4: wanted to focus on in this book was sort of

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Speaker 4: the nuance of it all and really look at the

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Speaker 4: culture context. And I think that there's some stories that

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Speaker 4: are more sympathetic than others, where you might understand like, wow,

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Speaker 4: this was a woman who was in a really impossible

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Speaker 4: or abusive situation and she was acting out of desperation.

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Speaker 4: But then on the other side, there are definitely the

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Speaker 4: ones who are like, Nope, that was a monster. That

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Speaker 4: was a monster behaving monstrously and yeah, And I think

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Speaker 4: one of the things that I talk about is that

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Speaker 4: we don't associate these crimes, you know, violent crimes with women,

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Speaker 4: but women are still capable of it. And unfortunately, there's

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Speaker 4: some women in this book that really exemplify that.

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Speaker 2: What it made me think of, though, is not the.

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Speaker 4: Most messed up one, but I have a case in

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Speaker 4: this book of a woman in Argentina whose name was

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Speaker 4: Ya Morano, and just the seeking of attention for it afterwards,

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Speaker 4: like with writing that children's picture book and like putting

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Speaker 4: their grief out there in a very public way, Like

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Speaker 4: she poisoned three of her friends for money and they died,

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Speaker 4: and afterwards she became this big TV celebrity and made

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Speaker 4: all of these appearances on TV shows in Argentina. My

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Speaker 4: favorite was there was a cooking show where the cost

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Speaker 4: famously ate a piece of cake that she made, like

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Speaker 4: on live on TV. And I'm just like, this's just

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Speaker 4: so fascinating to me, like the crime and sometimes what

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Speaker 4: the behavior is afterwards and how that transforms. And I

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Speaker 4: was just thinking of that, like the children's picture booked

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Speaker 4: when you said that, but in terms of one that's

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Speaker 4: just like absolutely like heinous. I think The first one

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Speaker 4: that comes to my mind is Bella Ganeth, who is

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Speaker 4: a woman in like the Victorian era in Indiana, And

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Speaker 4: there's a lot more to her story, but I'll just

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Speaker 4: summarize really briefly. Who basically put out an ad in

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Speaker 4: the newspaper like a wealthy widow seeks a husband and

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Speaker 4: plan of adjoining fortunes. My favorite line the whole thing

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Speaker 4: is triflers need not apply, which I want to have

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Speaker 4: embroidered on a pillow and just having like the front

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Speaker 4: of my home. Triflers need not apply. And she basically

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Speaker 4: sort of was reaching out to these lonely men who

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Speaker 4: were looking for companionship, which is not unlike what we

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Speaker 4: still experience today with a lot of these dates eating

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Speaker 4: scams and catfishing. And she told them to come to

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Speaker 4: her home in Indiana, tell no one where they were going,

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Speaker 4: and to see their life savings, into their undergarments, bring

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Speaker 4: everything they had. They were going to live this beautiful

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Speaker 4: life together. And she just murdered all of them and

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Speaker 4: and like buried them in her hog lot on her farm,

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Speaker 4: poison them and then bludgeon them and then forgive me,

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Speaker 4: it's gruesome, cut them into pieces, and yeah, and then

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Speaker 4: buried them. And the best part, and my best, I

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Speaker 4: mean most awful part of this story is that in

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Speaker 4: the end, when she was close to getting caught, she

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Speaker 4: set the whole barn on fire that she lived in

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Speaker 4: with her children. And there's a big mystery of if

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Speaker 4: she escaped or if she went down with the fire,

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Speaker 4: and I won't spoil that for you all, but yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's that's one that just sticks in my memories.

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Speaker 2: You can't dream that up. Truth is stranger than fiction.

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Speaker 2: It's just unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, that's how I feel with this this particular case.

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Speaker 1: It's like she was she was due to close on

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Speaker 1: a house the day after she poisoned him, and she did.

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Speaker 1: Could you imagine like someone that you love in your

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Speaker 1: family dying and just being like, yeah, well I have

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Speaker 1: this booked tomorrow, I have to go. And then she

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Speaker 1: had a party to celebrate the closing of the house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that tells you a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, It's it's just and and I just hate in

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Speaker 1: the news they have to be like, well, she hasn't

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Speaker 1: been convicted yet, and I'm like, come on, what else

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Speaker 1: could this be.

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Speaker 4: Let's no, Sometimes the facts speak for themselves and the

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Speaker 4: behavior that's so interesting right to going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had it on the agenda, so I'm still

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Speaker 2: gonna do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. All right.

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Speaker 1: So another case that we talked about, and I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've heard about this one too, because all your

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Speaker 1: friends are sending these cases all the time now. But

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Speaker 1: exactly there was a this is actually a man, believe

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Speaker 1: it or not, there was there was a couple in

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Speaker 1: the news this year of men poisoning their wives. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and this was a Mayo clinic pharmacist. So he was

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Speaker 1: not only a man, but he was also a poison specialist.

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Speaker 1: He specialized in poison and he went through a lot

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Speaker 1: of trouble of researching certain kinds of drugs that would

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Speaker 1: never really be shown up on routine toxicology, and he

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Speaker 1: chose the gout medication and yeah, exactly. And afterwards it

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Speaker 1: was like it was found that he was looking up

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Speaker 1: like what dose would be lethal with her weight and

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Speaker 1: everything like that. But did you in all the cases

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Speaker 1: that you researched, and it doesn't even have to be ones,

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Speaker 1: because obviously you probably left a lot out of the

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Speaker 1: book too, but did you have any cases that came

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Speaker 1: up that it was a person that was like a

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Speaker 1: specialist in whatever they used to poison someone with.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, And I will just clarify quickly, and I

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Speaker 4: think this was sort of the things shift in my

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Speaker 4: research is that it's really not true that women poison

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Speaker 4: people more than men, actually, because men commit murder so

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Speaker 4: much more than women do. They use every weapon, including poison,

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Speaker 4: more often than women. So it's that at first I went, oh, no,

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Speaker 4: my thesis, and then I realized, oh, it's actually really

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Speaker 4: much more interesting to explore this if there isn't as

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Speaker 4: much truth to it.

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Speaker 2: So yes, you'll definitely see cases.

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Speaker 4: Of men doing it, also for the same reasons we

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Speaker 4: ascribed it to women, because it's something that's easier to

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Speaker 4: get away with. Potentially you could pass it off as

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Speaker 4: natural causes or diseases. You don't have to have the

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Speaker 4: same physical connection to harming a person. You can sort

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Speaker 4: of disconnect from it in your mind. But yes, in

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Speaker 4: terms of are there specialists whoever take advantage of their

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Speaker 4: skills and specialty. Absolutely, there's a whole genre of murderers.

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Speaker 4: And I'm sure you've come across this before, sort of

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Speaker 4: the angels of mercy, which is folks who are specifically

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Speaker 4: in the medical profession, who use their access to medications

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Speaker 4: and to vulnerable patients.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, one of my friends what great Friends at

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Speaker 1: Amy Locker, and she's from the Netflix series.

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Speaker 3: The Good Nurse.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, I like that's her life

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Speaker 1: story that she one of her friends was poisoning his patients.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, it's nuts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: And I have a few of those, specifically in the book,

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Speaker 4: where it's someone who is in the medical profession or

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Speaker 4: in a caregiving situation to an older person because they

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Speaker 4: have access to medications and we're just in a situation

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Speaker 4: of inherent trust with our doctors and caregivers. We assume

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Speaker 4: if a doctor handed me something to drink this, I

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Speaker 4: would say, okay, you know, I don't think I would

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Speaker 4: actually guess it. And unfortunately that can give people who

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Speaker 4: have nefarious intention a really dangerous opportunity to enact scary things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: Wait, I have a really funny well you might think

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Speaker 1: this is funny, but my speaking of men poisoning, So

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Speaker 1: there was another case last year or too of a

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Speaker 1: dentist who used arsenic actually to poison his wife. But

380
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Speaker 1: in both cases, that one and the Mayo clinic pharmacists.

381
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Speaker 1: They both used smoothies to poison their wives.

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Speaker 2: Smoothie quite smoothie.

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Speaker 1: Oh, And I was joking around with my husband and

384
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Speaker 1: I was like, you know what, I would be so

385
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Speaker 1: suspicious if you handed me a smoothie, if you could

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Speaker 1: even figure out, like where the blender was in our

387
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Speaker 1: house and how to put the ingredients together to even

388
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Speaker 1: make me a smoothie, I would be like, what's up

389
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Speaker 1: with this?

390
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Speaker 2: Where did you find that?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 1: So that so one of the last cases that you

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Speaker 1: presented in the book was in nineteen fifty five, and

394
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Speaker 1: obviously there has been like evolution in poisonings because now

395
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Speaker 1: every single case that I've spoke about today and that

396
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Speaker 1: ones that have been happening over the past couple of years,

397
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Speaker 1: there's like associated Google searches. Yes, And I love how

398
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Speaker 1: in the book you mentioned that your Google searches are

399
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: probably like major oh suspicious.

400
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure the FBI is like aware of me.

401
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 4: I had to search like which is the worst poison

402
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Speaker 4: how do you where does it come from?

403
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Speaker 2: How do you get it?

404
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 4: And I'm like I know that, like some FBI agent

405
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 4: is like, oh, we need to watch this one.

406
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I.

407
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 1: Mean obviously, like I write about murders and near death

408
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Speaker 1: like all the time in my Google searches. Like sometimes

409
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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, these people are going to

410
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Speaker 1: be like what, like what is this girl looking up?

411
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Speaker 3: But mine are so bad for so many years that

412
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Speaker 3: I think.

413
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: I know, I want to Google like this is research

414
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Speaker 2: for a book.

415
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Speaker 4: FBI agent, please please take me off your watch list,

416
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Speaker 4: Like I'm yeah, I have a law abiding citizen.

417
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Speaker 2: I try really hard every day.

418
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Speaker 3: That's so great. I love that.

419
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Speaker 1: Another thing that I loved in your book was how

420
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Speaker 1: you mentioned that the only difference between like medicine and

421
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Speaker 1: poison is the dose. Yes, I say that all the time,

422
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Speaker 1: but yeah, like I've been saying that all the time

423
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Speaker 1: about alcohol.

424
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Speaker 2: It's yeah, that's the same thing.

425
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Speaker 1: You just are kind of like slowly poisoning you to

426
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Speaker 1: the point where you feel a buzz. But that's what

427
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: you're doing, is kind of slowly just poisoning yourself.

428
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 2: It's true. I low dose.

429
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Speaker 4: No, I think about that often the same the very

430
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 4: same ingredient or chemical in a certain small controlled dose

431
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 4: can be a valuable medication that can really help people

432
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Speaker 4: and save lives. The same exact thing in a larger

433
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,359
Speaker 4: dose can be a poison and can kill a person.

434
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Speaker 4: It's it's a really sobering reminder about quantity. Like is

435
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 4: that a small amount of alcohol or reasonable amount of

436
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 4: alcohol can be you know, a fun or safe way

437
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 4: to wind down in the evening. But too much and

438
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 4: that's alcohol poisoning. And that's true with anything. That was

439
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 4: the other surprising thing. You can poison yourself with anything.

440
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 4: It's not easy. But if you ate like six thousand

441
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 4: bananas in one sitting, you might get like potassium poisoning. Like,

442
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 4: you can overdo anything. So all things in moderation.

443
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, except barsenic, babe.

444
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 4: No, except arsenic, not in any quantity, please exactly.

445
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Nicole and Jemmy's

446
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: Anatomy Book, a catalog of familiar, rare, and unusual pathologies.

447
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: Do you need a perfect, inexpensive gift for someone who

448
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: loves medicine or pathology or for someone who is just

449
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: a little odd, My book would be a perfect gift.

450
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: Nicole and Jemmy's Anatomy is a journey through the human

451
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: body and all the things that can go wrong with it.

452
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: In the book, I tell stories of over one hundred

453
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: people and show pictures of their pathology. While some of

454
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 1: the images in the book can be pretty graphic, the

455
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: book itself is actually quite beautiful on a shelf. And

456
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: if you want to make this gift even better, you

457
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: can also get a personalized book plate from me that

458
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: sticks right inside the book. Go to my website thedoramater

459
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: dot com slash book for more information. All right, so

460
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 1: let's talk about about you a little bit.

461
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: Sure more you.

462
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: So you're not you're not a toxicologist, You're not a

463
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: forensic scientist or anything. So what what is it that?

464
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: How did you get into this field?

465
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

466
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 4: No, I'm like, I'm not a criminal psychologist. I'm not

467
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 4: a forensic scientist. I'm just a weirdo who find this

468
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 4: stuff really really fascinating. And I happen to be an illustrator.

469
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: You're an artist by profession, really right, And I love

470
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: your art. Your your book is is so beautiful.

471
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 3: And like, so I love it.

472
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: I actually wanted to ask you, like, are you planning

473
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 1: on making like merch and stickers from it?

474
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 3: Because you probably should.

475
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: I because every person that I've shown the book to

476
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: is love thinks it's awesome.

477
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: Oh thank you so much.

478
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was this was sort of my magnum opus

479
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 4: of like my dream project. I realized I usually do

480
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 4: book covers. I'm a like primary in my freelance work.

481
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 4: I'm a book cover illustrator, and I do other things

482
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 4: like products and advertising and editorial and institutional work as well,

483
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 4: but I'm primarily in books. But this was my first

484
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 4: chance to like make my my own book, like create

485
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: the cover and all the interior illustrations for a book

486
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 4: I researched and wrote and illustrated, so like I knew,

487
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 4: I wanted to go all out, go big or go home,

488
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 4: and especially on the cover. Having done maybe thirty covers

489
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 4: for other books, I was like, everyone was.

490
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: Like, what are you gonna do for your cover? And

491
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know, but it's got to

492
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: be big. But I gotta go hard on this.

493
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 4: But yeah, I am an illustrator and I'm a professor

494
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 4: of illustration of an art college in Maryland where I

495
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 4: live and where I teach. I feel like I lost

496
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 4: sight of the question on that one.

497
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I just I want to I'm really

498
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: curious about it. I wanted to know what the process

499
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: was like. So when you when you went and kind

500
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: of pitched this book or whatever where you you were

501
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: always like, I'm doing all the drawings in it too,

502
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: that was that was your thing.

503
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, I actually feel like I sort of came into this.

504
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 4: So during the worst days of the pandemic, when we

505
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 4: were all quarantining, I finally had the time to work

506
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 4: on a personal project and the like energy and enthusiasm

507
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 4: to do it, which those things never line up. You

508
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 4: either have the idea no time, or the time and

509
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 4: no idea. And a friend of mine had sent me

510
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 4: an article on Julia Tofana, which was a seventeenth century

511
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 4: woman who sold poison to women in abusive relationships in Italy.

512
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 4: And the headline for this article was something incredible and

513
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 4: it was like woman confesses that her poison was used

514
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 4: to kill six thousand men in Renaissance Italy. And I

515
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 4: was like, Wow, that's amazing. Why don't we all know that?

516
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: Why are we all talking about that? And because I'm

517
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 4: an artist and an illustrator, my way to engage with

518
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 4: this was I did a whole bunch of research about her,

519
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 4: and I realized there was no existing portrait of her,

520
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, and they always used these

521
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 4: images from like paintings that were often done in the

522
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 4: Victorian era, but there were always of like women from

523
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 4: the medieval world. And she didn't live in the medieval world.

524
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 4: She lived in Renaissance Italy. And so I said, oh, well,

525
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: I'm going to do some visual research. I want to

526
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 4: make a portrait of what I think she might have

527
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 4: looked like. And I sort of found this format where

528
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 4: I drew her in the middle and then I hand

529
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 4: lettered her name on the top and then had a

530
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 4: summary of kind of her story on the bottom. And

531
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed doing it as a personal project, and

532
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 4: I wondered, are there more.

533
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 2: Stories like this?

534
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 4: And I started researching other women who had connections to

535
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 4: poison and it began as an illustration series, and I

536
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 4: didn't know it was going to be a book or

537
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 4: anything bigger at the time. But then when I had

538
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 4: about three or four of these illustrations, I realized, I

539
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 4: think I have a pitch for something, and I reached

540
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 4: out to an editor who I was like, I dreamed

541
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 4: of working with, and I was like, this is a

542
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 4: I'm going to go out on a limb here and

543
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 4: see what happens.

544
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: And she just responded really well.

545
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 4: And one of the conversations we had early on was

546
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 4: do I just want to illustrate it, and should I

547
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 4: work with an author who has more experience with this,

548
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 4: or do I want to write it myself? And I

549
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 4: I have an English degree from a long time ago,

550
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 4: and I love research and I love true crime.

551
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: And my colleagues are like, do it, you can do it.

552
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 4: And yeah, it was the hardest, the most rewarding project

553
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 4: I've ever worked on. And I think it really is

554
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 4: my baby because I got to do every part of it,

555
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: from the research to the writing, to the illustrating, to

556
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 4: the cover and now all the fun stuff afterwards. It's

557
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: been just an amazing journey for me. But yeah, it

558
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: was definitely something where I was like, I almost talked myself.

559
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: Out of it.

560
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 4: I was like, I can't do that, but I'm really

561
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 4: really glad. But it was definitely a learning curve. I

562
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: had to slow down and really like learn how to

563
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 4: do the research correctly and like how to find credible

564
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 4: sources and then just how to organize how to tackle

565
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 4: such a large project. It took me about three years

566
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 4: from start to finish.

567
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it shows it's really awesome. I love

568
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: how you dedicated the book to your parents. Yes, that

569
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: was so great, and yeah, for those of you who

570
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: haven't read it yet, it just said something like to

571
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: my parents who thought that my first book was going

572
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: to be a children's book or something like that, like

573
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: it's it's just great and then and then like the

574
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: opposite is, oh no, I'm just writing about a book

575
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: about women who kill people, Like well, sorry, mom, yeah, exactly,

576
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: it's but I'm sure they're like, they're so super proud

577
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: of you.

578
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 3: They probably think it's like so cool, you know.

579
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they've been really excited about it too.

580
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 4: But my mom, I cannot tell you all many times

581
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: my mom said to me, I really wanted your first

582
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 4: book to be like a nice children's picture book.

583
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: And she's still like, you could still do it.

584
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 4: You could come back from this, you could still do

585
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: a nice children's picture book. And I'm like, I think

586
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 4: I'm on a journey now, and it's it's taking me

587
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: somewhere darker and weirder and somewhere so much that's so

588
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 4: interesting to me. So and again, a lot of illustrated

589
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 4: books are for children, so I sort of like I

590
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 4: have an idea for an.

591
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: Illustrated book, but it's for adults. It's for like true

592
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: crime obsessed adults.

593
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 4: Like I like, so it's definitely sort of an interesting like, well,

594
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 4: they even let me do this, and I got very

595
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 4: lucky that I had a publisher and an editor who

596
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 4: was like really down to let me try it.

597
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm sure they're happy that with their decision.

598
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: I can let you do it because it's because it's

599
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: it's great. I love it so much.

600
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: Thank you.

601
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: That means so much to me.

602
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: So speaking of like this, then now your career is

603
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of taking a different turn than you probably thought

604
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: even five years ago. So are you gonna Are you

605
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: going to continue with this on this path?

606
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 2: I think so? I think, Yeah, life's funny.

607
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: I don't know if I ever couldn't dreamed that this

608
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: is where I was going to be, like you said

609
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 4: five years ago, but I'm I'm really grateful for it.

610
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: I think this is like my dream.

611
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 4: Like if I could talk to little Lisa from like

612
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: middle or high school, and I would tell her you're

613
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,239
Speaker 4: like writing and illustrating about like really weird history and

614
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 4: true crime and fascinating topics, I think I'd be like

615
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 4: just over the moon excited and so happy about that.

616
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 4: And I yes, I actually just spoke with my editor

617
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 4: last night and we're working on plans to discuss what

618
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: the next book is going to be. So and I

619
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 4: won't reveal anything just yet because we're figuring it out.

620
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 4: But I'm really excited for this development. But I'm still

621
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 4: going to keep doing book covers and teaching and all

622
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 4: the other stuff that I love doing too. But yeah,

623
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: I think this is like a really lovely next and

624
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: forgive the pardon the pun, a next chapter for me

625
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 4: is going to be more in sort of writing and

626
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: creating my own books.

627
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's it's cool because it's the book is

628
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: so beautiful and I could see there being multiple different

629
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: versions that you could kind of line up on your

630
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: bookshelf and it looks really pretty. But then you know,

631
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: you have guests over and they pick it up and

632
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty.

633
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: I feel like it's I like it.

634
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: So much because it's the same kind of vibe that

635
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: I wanted to have with my book, that like, it

636
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: looks really pretty and then when you open it, you're like,

637
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is like really horrendous person you're

638
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: looking at.

639
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I love.

640
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: That juxtaposition of something beautiful next to something really dark.

641
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 4: I think that's very compelling and enchanting, and I think

642
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 4: it also shows the nuance that many things are both.

643
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 4: They're good and bad. There's light and darkness in most things.

644
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 4: And I definitely wanted to create a book that was

645
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: sort of not just not just something that would be

646
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 4: interesting to read and to look at it internally, but

647
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 4: I wanted it to be like an art object that

648
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 4: people would want to display and have out in their

649
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: homes and be really excited, like, oh my gosh, this

650
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 4: looks so cool next to my candlesticks or this little

651
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 4: vial that I collected, and it's for our own little person.

652
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 4: I'm looking at your bookshelf behind you, and I'm like,

653
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: that is the dream. Like, that's exactly where I wanted

654
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 4: that book to live.

655
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: It looks so at home.

656
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: Oh wait, it looks great. It looks great living on

657
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: my shelf. It's just like and when people come over,

658
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: they just look at it and they're like.

659
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: Oh, what's this.

660
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: This is really cool?

661
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: Thank you. And I think that's the power of book covers.

662
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 4: Like I said, I've been in book covers a long time,

663
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: and I don't believe that people don't judge a book

664
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 4: that way. I think that's a silly expression. I think

665
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 4: that expression relates to lots of people. We shouldn't judge

666
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 4: people by their outward experiences or outward uh what I

667
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: want to say, by their outward Uh.

668
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like the presentation they're putting out there, like, yeah,

669
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: you don't want.

670
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 2: To thank you, but books we totally do well.

671
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, because who's going to pick it up off the

672
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: shelf if it's not It's not like drawling you in.

673
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: You know.

674
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: Oh. I believe that.

675
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: One of the one of the coolest parts of the

676
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: book was that which was a little unexpected to me

677
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: that I didn't think that I was going to find

678
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: in the book reading it was that it was not

679
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: only a history lesson on poisoning, obviously, but it was

680
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: also kind of an introduction to the history of forensics

681
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: and toxicology. Absolutely, I didn't really expect that you were

682
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: going to touch on that in the book, but it was.

683
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: It was really cool how that came about and how

684
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: you had You were talking about one of the women.

685
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: Who were convicted of murder.

686
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: She was considered to be maybe one of the first

687
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: people convicted of murder due to forensic toxicology, which is

688
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: so cool, and that was back in like eighteen forty

689
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: or something, And I just wanted to know if you

690
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: had any other unexpected things that you came across when

691
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: you were researching all of these people that were doing

692
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: these crimes.

693
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 4: No. I think that's such a wonderful point, and I

694
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 4: think in this story the scientists end up really being

695
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 4: the heroes in some of these cases, because, like you said,

696
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 4: there really wasn't forensic toxicology really wasn't a field within

697
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 4: science and within a detective investigation until the nineteenth century,

698
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: we had really limited ways to like we could think

699
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 4: a person probably poisoned someone. But I always thought this

700
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 4: was so fascinating. There was no way to really prove

701
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 4: it scientifically. And the case that you're talking about is

702
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 4: Marie LeFarge, who was the first woman convicted on forensic

703
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 4: toxicological evidence because of this innovation by James Marsh called

704
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: the Marsh test, which was able to prove the presence

705
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: of arsenic and even to minute amounts in bodies tissues

706
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: post mortem. And before that, they're really that didn't really exist,

707
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 4: and that scientist had actually been on a previous case

708
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 4: where he was even though he found evidence of arsenic

709
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 4: in a man's tissues, it had like disappeared by the

710
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: time it came to present that evidence in court, and

711
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 4: in that time period they needed to see it to

712
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 4: believe it, and that person got was proven innocent and

713
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 4: got away with it and later confessed I did it,

714
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 4: ha ha, I got away with it, and he said,

715
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 4: I got to.

716
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 2: Invent a better test for arsenic. We can't.

717
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 4: We can't let this continue to happen. So it really

718
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: is the scientists, I think, who end up curving up

719
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 4: this space, specifically in the arsenic murders. You don't really

720
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 4: hear that too much anymore. Oh, I guess the occasional

721
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 4: smoothie arsenic murder, but because now it's so easy to

722
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 4: test for it, right before that there really wasn't. And

723
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: I was reading about what the best system they had

724
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 4: for I'm sorry because I'm an animal lover, so I

725
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: don't like this is they would feed the meal that

726
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 4: they believed made that person sick to an animal to

727
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 4: see what happened, and that was like that was their

728
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 4: best scientific thing that they had. And even before that,

729
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 4: I think the like the test in like goodness, maybe

730
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 4: the thirteen or fourteen hundreds. Well, so you had to

731
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 4: throw the food in the fire and if it smelled

732
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 4: like garlic.

733
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: Then they believed it was arsenic.

734
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 4: Like there just really wasn't a credible scientific system for this.

735
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: So the scientists end up really having a large impact

736
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 4: on how criminals used these poisons because, like you said, now,

737
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 4: what they're doing is they have to research what poisons

738
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: are not often searched for, oh, when they're doing these

739
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 4: post mortem exams, because we've come so far with toxicology

740
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 4: and you can't just poison someone with arsenic anymore because

741
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 4: they're going to test for that.

742
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: So I think that that is so interesting.

743
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 4: And Marie LeFarge, I think it was just bad timing

744
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: for her that she got caught. She was the first

745
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 4: one to get caught that way, and she might have

746
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 4: gotten away with it if she'd.

747
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: Acted even a little bit sooner.

748
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: So I always think about that, like what's going to

749
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: be the test in two hundred years that they look

750
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: back on and say, like, do you believe people used

751
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: to do this all the time and get away with

752
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: Because I know people still get away with murder all

753
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: the time. Just because of the way the system is.

754
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, for example, at the medical examiner's office,

755
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: sometimes they have so many bodies and if they have

756
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: a person that comes in that died at home and

757
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: is maybe older and has a giant scar on their

758
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: chest that indicates they had heart surgery before, and they

759
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: call their doctor and say, hey, your your patients died.

760
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: Would you sign a death certificate and say they had

761
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: heart disease or whatever? And he's like yeah, do doctor

762
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: say like, yeah, they could have died from that because

763
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: I was treating them for that. Then end of story, Right,

764
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: they won't look into it further. They won't look into

765
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: it further. And they do do like they do like

766
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: a quick toxicology, but that's only tests for like opioids

767
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: and just like cocaine.

768
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 3: Just basic things, like three or four basic things.

769
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I just look at that and I'm like, okay,

770
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: but how do you how do you really know that

771
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: the wife wasn't just like over him and just yeah.

772
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, like there's this book is still

773
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 4: the women poisoners, but just the women we know of

774
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 4: or just the women who got caught. I think about

775
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: that a lot that there's probably so many stories we

776
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 4: don't know and we'll never know because they got away

777
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 4: with it.

778
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's really, it's just it's really interesting,

779
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: and I just I always think about that, like we're

780
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: so advanced in medicine and forensics, and then you think, like,

781
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: what is what is getting what's going down the line

782
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: that right now we would think is completely crazy, But

783
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: it's true. Why and you were saying that poisoning isn't

784
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: it's definitely now is not a common cause of murdering

785
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: someone at all.

786
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 3: It's it's it's rare.

787
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: But I think the three or four or five maybe

788
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: stories that have happened this year are probably like one

789
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: of the only ones because they get so much attention

790
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: because it's so shocking that people still do that.

791
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's not

792
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: that poisoning is a common crime. It's just a sensational crime.

793
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 4: So when it happens, they end up, you know, in

794
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 4: the media and really prominent.

795
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 2: But it's not.

796
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 4: Honestly, guns are responsible for a whole lot more violence,

797
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: but we're so desensitized to that that the poisoning crimes

798
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 4: really stand out. And that's why we end up hearing

799
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 4: about them more and maybe we think they're more common

800
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 4: than they are.

801
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, I.

802
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: Feel like some of the people actually could have gotten

803
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: this is when you work in like certain fields like

804
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: pathology or like police are detective, you have to have

805
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: some kind of like semi sick mind to think like

806
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: how people do commit crimes in order to you know.

807
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: You got to engineer it. How did we get here?

808
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 2: What did they do?

809
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, like you have to try to think like them.

810
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: And I look back at all of these just looking

811
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: through all the case and I'm like, most of these

812
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,959
Speaker 1: people probably would have gotten away with this if they

813
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: weren't acting so weird. And you know, like that's you're

814
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 1: you're having like a party after your husband dies, right,

815
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: so of course everyone, every normal person's gonna be like, Okay,

816
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: this is weird, what's going on? And and then start

817
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: looking at your Google searches and then all of a

818
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: sudden it's like okay, but yeah, exactly, like it's It's

819
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: just the whole thing of it is just very interesting

820
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: to me because with a normal like at the medical

821
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: examiner's office, if you if you.

822
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 3: Die, and the normal the normal.

823
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: Panel isn't going to necessarily pick up anything unless they're

824
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: keyed off to check for things because they think of

825
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: poisoning suspicious.

826
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that that doctor.

827
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: For example, that poison his wife with the gout medication

828
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: like that, that wouldn't have come up.

829
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 2: Who would think to check for that.

830
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: It's so uncommon, So it's like they almost get have

831
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: the perfect idea of a crime, but then they don't,

832
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: but they don't finish the job.

833
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: Commit if you're gonna do the whole thing, do it

834
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 2: right that being so flashy at the end with the parties.

835
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, or the life insurance or this, Yes, if

836
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: that's any advice that we.

837
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: Could give you, No, no, no, I'm not encouraging. But yeah.

838
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 4: Actually there's stories in my book like that too. And

839
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 4: actually the last story is one of a nurse, Jane Tappin,

840
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 4: And one of the reasons she got away with it,

841
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 4: and there were many, was that she used two very

842
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 4: unusual medications.

843
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: She combined atropine and.

844
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 4: Morphine, which had really unique symptoms where they contradicted each other,

845
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 4: like one made the pupils big and the other one

846
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 4: made the pupil shrink, so they ended up looking normal,

847
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: but the person was experiencing all these things, and nobody

848
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 4: would test for atropine and morphine, so it was just

849
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 4: something that she got away with for a long time

850
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 4: because she used less conventional poisons and she was a nurse,

851
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 4: so she had access to these chemicals.

852
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: And how did she eventually get caught?

853
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: She overdid it. She murdered a whole family.

854
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 3: This is what happens.

855
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: Like. It's like if you just if you just did

856
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 1: You're like, you're a geniush right, you thought like, okay,

857
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: you destrugg to do this and destrug to do this,

858
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: so the body looks okay, But then you get you

859
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: get like greedy and then yeah.

860
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 4: No, it's just like I hate to say this because

861
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 4: I'm not condoning what they did, but if you could

862
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: have just quit when you were ahead, man and just

863
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 4: walked away.

864
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: But they can't.

865
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 4: And I think it's there is a psychological component to

866
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 4: this too. After you don't get caught, I think people

867
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 4: get really cocky and they're like, ha ha, I'm smarter

868
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 4: than the lam above the law.

869
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: I can do whatever I want to get away with it.

870
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 4: And then they get sloppy and that's usually their downfall exactly.

871
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: That seems to be a common theme.

872
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: Well, so you said that you're talking about doing another book. Perhaps,

873
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: is there any other projects that you're working on.

874
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 4: Oh, that's a good question. So I'm just working on

875
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 4: some book covers right now. I'm doing a romance book

876
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 4: cover for one. It's just really really fun, like a

877
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: Regency era one. And I just finished up a book

878
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 4: cover for like a middle grade novel about like a

879
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 4: cool magical school or like I guess it's but not

880
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 4: quite like Harry Potter or anything like that. They're more

881
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,760
Speaker 4: like like grim reapers and stuff go to this school

882
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: and they all learn together, it seems. But that like, Yeah,

883
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 4: mostly I work on book covers, and I'm working on

884
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 4: some potential pitches for the next book, but mostly, like

885
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,959
Speaker 4: I said, I'm a professor and we're in finals time

886
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,959
Speaker 4: now for the end of the fall semester. So that's

887
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 4: that's mostly where my head has been at.

888
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 3: Did you ever think.

889
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: About doing your book in an audiobook too? I know

890
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: you want, because I feel like like I like audiobooks,

891
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: but I also like to have the book too, Yes,

892
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: just because the way, like my life's kind of hectic

893
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: with kids and everything, like I like to just put

894
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: it on and like, I feel like I could listen

895
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: to a book and also clean my house or paint my.

896
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: House or something.

897
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, cleaning and painting.

898
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: Is that? Is that something you ever considered?

899
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: You know?

900
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 4: It never came up. I'm also a big audiobook fan.

901
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 4: I'm listening to like two different audible books right now,

902
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 4: and I love to listen while I'm doing usually while

903
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: I'm illustrating other things like working on projects, I love

904
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 4: to listen. It never came up for this book. I

905
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 4: think probably because it is so ritually illustrating that it's

906
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 4: such a visual experience too. But it's something I can

907
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 4: mention to the editor if it's something you think folks

908
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 4: would like and respond to, but yeah, they know.

909
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: I think.

910
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: I definitely think so because I think that the biggest

911
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: thing right now is like true Crime podcast and it's

912
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: just very it's very interesting material. And I think that

913
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: you have enough text in the book that it's not

914
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: going to be a super huge like a huge audio book,

915
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: but people would still like that too, I think, yeah,

916
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: I definite and I and I think like most people

917
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: I know like to have the book with with the

918
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: audio book, So I know I understand that like it's

919
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: a it's a visual book and stuff. But I just

920
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 1: thought that that would be cool because I really like, yeah,

921
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: it's it's easier for me to listen to an audiobook and.

922
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 4: Oh, like, totally, no, I'm also a multitasker, so I'll

923
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 4: tell it. I'll tell my editor you said so. But yeah, Actually,

924
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 4: when I was doing research for the book, my favorite

925
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 4: thing to do was to get both the physical book

926
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 4: and the audiobook, and I felt like that really helped

927
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 4: me understand it, just to have kind of both the

928
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 4: visual and the audio together.

929
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: Me too, And you're like, I'm like a learner that

930
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 1: does better when I hear than when I actually read,

931
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: you know. But yeah, but I love the way that

932
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 1: your book is set up because it's not it's not

933
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: just like a black and white book that you're reading,

934
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: because that.

935
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: They're like brutal for me.

936
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: But the illustrations and stuff makes it easy for people

937
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: like me that aren't the best readers to read as well.

938
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 2: That's wonderful to hear.

939
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 4: I'm so glad because that's part of the reason why

940
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 4: it's there is I hope to aim with the experience

941
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 4: and to make it easier to read and move through

942
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 4: and kind of give your eye breaks and an opportunity

943
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,240
Speaker 4: to sort of interpret the information in a different way

944
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 4: besides reading. But then you get the image that sort

945
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 4: of reflects it too. That's why I think.

946
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: Picture books for adults should totally be a thing.

947
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: Oh, they one hundred percent should, because I I am

948
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: just like I'm always honest about this, Like I just

949
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: don't like to I'm not good at reading.

950
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I don't.

951
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: If I just sat there and read a regular novel,

952
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: it's very hard for me to absorb the information. But

953
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: like with your book, for example, I'm a very like

954
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: photogenic memory kind of thing. So when I see one

955
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: of the pictures of these women that you draw, then

956
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: it helps me visualize and remember what's happening throughout the book.

957
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 2: So I like that. That's so great to hear. Thank

958
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: you for sharing that with me.

959
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think a lot a lot of people

960
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: don't recognize that that people aren't the same kind of learner,

961
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: you know.

962
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, Like I said, I'm a teacher, So I

963
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 4: think about that a lot, and having multiple ways to

964
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 4: get to learn something or have access to it, and

965
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 4: people can kind of choose how or use both or

966
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 4: as many as they want or need to help them

967
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 4: sort of access and understand the information.

968
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, because when I was a kid, it was like

969
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 1: audio books were really I mean they came on tapes, right,

970
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I remember, yeah exactly.

971
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: But they were.

972
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: It was frowned upon big time when I was a kid,

973
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: And now I love that, Like my kids are little

974
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,880
Speaker 1: and learn in school, and they are really they're like,

975
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: we don't care how it gets in them as long

976
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: as they're picking it up.

977
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 4: You know, it's about the content, it's not about the vehicle.

978
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 4: I think that's I'm really glad that that movement is

979
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 4: happening in education because, like you said, so many people,

980
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 4: and especially children learn in such different ways. Like why

981
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 4: does it matter how they got the information as long

982
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 4: as they're learning?

983
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I think the same way.

984
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: All right.

985
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here with us today.

986
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: It was really a pleasure.

987
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: Oh I had so much fun. Thank you so much

988
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: for including me.

989
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: This was a blast, awesome.

990
00:46:53,640 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you, thank you for listening to mother nos death.

991
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: As a reminder, my training is as a pathologist's assistant.

992
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: I have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy

993
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: and pathology education. I am not a doctor and I

994
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: have not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without

995
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: the assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website,

996
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform

997
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: people based on my experience working in pathology, so they

998
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being.

999
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 1: Always remember that science is changing every day and the

1000
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge

1001
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: of those subjects at the time of publication. If you

1002
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 1: are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or

1003
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 1: having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit

1004
00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 1: an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review,

1005
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

1006
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: or anywhere you get podcasts.

1007
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: Thanks