1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: In two thousand four, three years after I left the 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: White House, I started the Clinton School of Public Service 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: and Little Rock. I wanted to encourage more people to 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: pursue paths in public service and to prepare them to 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: do it so our students are not simply required to 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: learn in the classroom, but also to participate in actual 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: service work in the field in Arkansas and the rest 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: of the United States and all around the world. Every 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: time I'm around these students at the Clinton School, including 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: at their recent commencement, they seem to me to be 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: the perfect antidote to the poisonous politics of division and 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: polarization that we see all too often in the US 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: and now around the world, where everything is zero sum, 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: you only win and someone else loses. So why am 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: I telling you this? Because leadership matters, And while it's 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: easy to take a cynical view of government and politics 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: in today's world, it's important to remember that public service 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: can and should still be an honorable, rewarding endeavor. For 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: our season finale, I have the honor of speaking with 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 1: a former leader and colleague who is also my friend, 21 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: Tony Blair, and I've worked together on both political and 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: philanthropic causes over the last twenty five years since he 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: was first elected Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: A decade later, after he left office, he established the 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: Tony Blair Institute for Global Change to work on some 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: of the most difficult challenges in the world, including how 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: to create a vital center in politics that ken re 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: knew itself with practical policy solutions. Tony, thanks so much 29 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: for being here, Bliss an absolute pleasure to be on 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: the your your podcasts, and you know you taught me 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 1: an enormous amount And for any student of that history 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: of the Labor Party, that time when you were empowered 33 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: really inspired us after a long period of opposition to 34 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: go win those elections. This month is also the anniversary 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: of NATO's vote to expand to include the Czech Republic 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: and Hungary and Poland, and of course now it's back 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: in the news because of Sweden and Finland's petition to join. 38 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: So Tony, I'd like to just start by saying, first, 39 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: thank you for doing this, and what's your take on 40 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: where we are now with the war in Ukraine, what 41 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: is most likely to happen, how do you think it 42 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: will end, and what do we do then, I think 43 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: with Ukraine the risk is now you get into a 44 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: long drawn out conflict we which to some degree will 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: be in Putin's interest because his original ambitions for you 46 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: praying have failed, and failed pretty dramatically. He wanted to 47 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: topple the government, replace the president. All that's gone. His 48 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: ambition is now to keep that southern corridor between the 49 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: western part of Russia and and Primera De's a possibly 50 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: to go out and into Transnistrium and essentially just paralyzed 51 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: the country of ukrain not by occupying all of it, 52 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: but by occupying enough of it to keep it in. 53 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: As I say, this kind of frozen conflict. So his 54 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: original ambition to topple the government failed. His ambition to 55 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: stop DAT having a role as backfired spectaculated because now 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: countries are wanting to join. However, I think the way 57 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian leadership has handled this has been very courageous. 58 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: I think everyone knows, but also quite wise in the 59 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian leadership itself recognizes that there may come a point, 60 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: an optimal point for a negotiated them to the crisis, 61 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: which allows therefore some stability to be put into the 62 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: situation for them to get back control of their country 63 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: and go on the journey they really want to go on, 64 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: which is to become, you know, a modern European nation, 65 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: joining the European Union, but also reforming their own economy, 66 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: giving their young people the chances they need. So I 67 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: think what we've got to do is two things. We've 68 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: got to keep up the pressure on Russia by giving 69 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians what they need by way of weapons and 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: support and training and finance. And then we've got to 71 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: be prepared. Secondly, when that optimal motion moment comes for 72 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: a negotiation, the Ukrainians want to get behind them and 73 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: support what they want. So I am you know, iha 74 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: in between simism that Putin will succeed in pulling this 75 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: into a long drawn out conflict and optimism that the 76 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: success of the Ukrainians in the field will open up 77 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 1: that optimal moment. Because I'm naturally an optimist, I tend 78 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: to the latter notion. But it's going to be very 79 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: critical that we in the West keep the support strong 80 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: for them. I agree with that. And if it looks 81 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: like it's winding down to the kinds of alternatives you suggested, 82 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: I think one challenge that we will have to help 83 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: them meet is we have to make them strong enough 84 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: so that they don't have to give up so much 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: of what is in the East that they become almost 86 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: a basket case economically. I mean, an enormous percentage of 87 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: Ukraine's wealth, at least in today's economy, is concentrated in 88 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: the East. You know, they're between Russia and Ukraine. They 89 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: produce thirty percent of the world's white and a lot 90 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: of that is in the area that Russia is trying 91 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: to dominate. They produce a lot of minerals and rare 92 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: earths and including about of the world's manganese, and it's 93 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: over there. So I think the world needs to to 94 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: think about that. I think President Biden has done a 95 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: great job of uniting Europe with the US and Canada 96 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: and other allies and you know, giving them the help 97 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: they need to defend themselves. But we have to think 98 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: about now. We need a plan now for what we'll 99 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: do at the end of hostilities when they have to 100 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: make ends meet and have to feed their children and 101 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: educate them and build their economy. Yeah, for sure, I 102 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: think that's that's um complete, right. I think I mean 103 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: part of the trouble is what one of the things 104 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: the Russians are doing is actually torturing some of the 105 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: supplies of grain Ukrainians have, trying to disrupt their agricultural production, 106 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: which of course the enormous problem for the world. I mean, 107 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: the African presidents you and I will both be speaking to, 108 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: will be telling us and are telling us that food 109 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: shortages again become a major problem in the developing world. 110 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: But it's it's exactly to the point that the Ukrainians 111 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: will want back control of their essential territory and they'll 112 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: want to be able to do that in a way 113 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: that allows them them to rebuild. And we've got this 114 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: sphace which is helping them get to that point, and 115 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: then the next phase, which is then helping them on 116 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: their journey not just to recovery, but a progress because 117 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 1: we all know in the passions of elation over either 118 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: a military victory or a successful peace process pass then 119 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: you're left with the details and the consequences, the choices 120 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: which had to be made to put an end to 121 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: the counculut, which may be huge barriers to development. We 122 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: see that in Bosnia even today. You know that if 123 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: anybody ad told me twenty years ago when we stuck 124 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: with the Kosovo and save them from I think a 125 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: terrible faith that they would actually be somewhat better off 126 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: in terms, at least politically than Bosnia. I never would 127 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: have believed that. Yeah, you know, one of the things 128 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: we should just spend a moment on is the relevance 129 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: of that cause of experience to today, because you know, 130 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: it taught me two things that are very important. The 131 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: first is it taught me that the advantage of that 132 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: relationship between the UK and the US, because I will 133 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: say to people, your leadership at the time, because of 134 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: it was what made the difference ultimately. So you know, 135 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: we we could from the UK side, we could and 136 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: we did. We tried to rally European opinion. We tried 137 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: to make sure that we keep up the pressure because 138 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: there was terrible slaughter of innocent people happening. But it 139 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: was when you were prepared to just hint at the 140 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: possibility of direct American military intervention um and that you 141 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: remember all the stuff about boots on the ground, Just 142 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: that hint brought Milosovich's campaign of of you know, frankly 143 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: obliteration of the cause of the people to an end, 144 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: and you had to do that in circumstances where I 145 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: think I'm right saying at the time there was no 146 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: great movement in America. Was actually unlike Ukraine in the 147 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: sense of negreating movement in America to do this. But 148 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: you did it, and the thing it taught me was 149 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: without it, we couldn't have solved that problem. So I 150 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: think that you are that that Ukraine has brought back again, 151 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: and I agree. I think President Biden has done a 152 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: great job of bringing the West together, giving it to 153 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: reduced sense of mission and purpose. But the other thing 154 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I learned is that you you have to be you know, 155 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: for all the difficulties, and there are difficulties and I'm 156 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: you know, no a lot of that post nine eleven. Uh. 157 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: This relationship in the end is about making sure you're 158 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: prepared to stand up strongly for not just the interests 159 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: you have, but the values you have because there are 160 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: large parts of the world that are looking to us 161 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: for that leadership. Let me take up a little pivot 162 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: on that. I want to come back to that. But 163 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: we are next year going to celebrate the twenty fifth 164 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: anniversary of a Good Friday accord. I know we can 165 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: spend five hours on this, But what's your take on 166 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: the state of the Irish peace political process now and 167 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: the difficulties has still remained because of unresolved questions caused 168 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: by Broxit. My views that the Good Friday Agreement in 169 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: the end will hold because it's put down deep roots 170 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: and I don't think there is any desire on the 171 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: part of the vast majority of people on the island 172 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: of Island or in Northern Ireland to go back of violence. However, 173 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: brags it because it meant Britain or the UK leaving 174 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: the European Union and for the first time therefore being 175 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: in a different relationship to Europe than the Irish Republic 176 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: in the South of Ireland. What that meant was, for 177 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: the first time, the border between North and South and 178 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: Ireland became the external border of the European Union. And 179 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: you know, leave aside whether you like brakes or don't 180 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: like brags, and that pretty well known for not liking it. 181 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: The fact that's a fact that for the first time 182 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: because the Republic of Ireland and the North of Ireland, 183 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: North of Ireland being part of the UK, had always 184 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: been in the same relationship. You know, when the European 185 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: Union was founded, we both stayed out. In three we 186 00:11:54,280 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: both joined together, so that border never really matter until now. 187 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: And the result of that is because Britain, as you're 188 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: the UK, has got out of the single market of 189 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: the European Union, is that that external boarder between North 190 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: and South, unless you make special arrangements, means that you're 191 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: it's no longer open because it's a it's a you're 192 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: putting the trading arrangements between the two bits of the 193 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: North and the South. You're putting those trading arrangements um 194 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: into a situation where it's they're in they're operating in 195 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: different systems, so you have to have a whole lot 196 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: of checks and balances that are inconsistent with an open border. Okay, 197 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: it gets all very complicated at that point, but to 198 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: try and simplify what it means today is we've got 199 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: a situation where the UK agreed something with the European 200 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: Union back in to resolve this problem. It didn't really 201 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: resolve it. We've now got a big and off and 202 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: it's putting the whole of that shared community government in 203 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: the North of Ireland at risk because the Unionists don't 204 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: want any form of checks, and yet since we're now 205 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: operating in different spheres of the market, that's bound to 206 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: be check. So it's a very very difficult situation. I 207 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: think it will still hold, but I think that if 208 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: if we don't find a practical way through, it is 209 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: going to undermine the relationships between the communities and Northern Ireland, 210 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: and that over time could put the Good Friday Agreement 211 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: in peril. At the moment, I think there's still a 212 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: huge desire to keep the things strong and intact. But 213 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: if this goes on and say ends up the worst 214 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: case scenario in some trade war between Europe and the UK, 215 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: it would it would be Yeah, it would be a 216 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: very very serious thing. Indeed, what do you make of 217 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: strong performance Marsha and pain and the more frucent works. Well, 218 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: it is really interesting. And of course you were absolutely 219 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: instrumental in helping us guide the Good Friday Agreement through. 220 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: And you know, I remember when I first came into power, 221 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: uh and I decided I would go for this peace 222 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: process in Northern Ireland. A lot of people said to me, 223 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't touch that. You've got absolutely no chance. People 224 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: thought it was much more like you get peace in 225 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: the Middle East than you would get peace in Northern Ireland. 226 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: But when we got into the negotiation and you you 227 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: really helped us pull people together and we're an amazing 228 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: store wards. But when that happened, shin fayne and it's 229 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: a really interesting thing. So they came from being outcasts, 230 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, the British state used to stop them even 231 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: being broadcast right, and then they came into a peace process, 232 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: at first very reluctantly. Then over the years as they 233 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: gave up violence and engage in politics, they're now in 234 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: the position where the largest party in Northern and actually 235 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: they're doing well down to the south of Bible. Now, 236 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's bits of change pain politics and frankly 237 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: aren't my politics at all, of course. But the interesting 238 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: thing is as well is that a group that was 239 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: on the fringe engaged in violence, once they opted for peace, 240 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: managed to obtain significant political advance. And that, funnily enough, 241 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: I think isn't isn't a lesson for the peace process 242 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: of the Middle East today. Um So I think chin 243 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: fain No, it's been an extraordinary change in their position. 244 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: Um but it's partly I'm afraid because as a result 245 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: of the disagreements over this Northern Ireland protocol. They've they've 246 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: got a match stronger position and for the first time, 247 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: really in my political lifetime, are United Island is on 248 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the agenda in a way it's not been before. We'll 249 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: be right back. Let me ask you about the whole 250 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: globalization project. You know, uh, you and I supported more 251 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: trade ties, but we also supported active government to try 252 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: to make the most of them and take care of 253 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: the adjustments that had to be made if people were displaced. 254 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: Now there's a movement, uh that is sort of part 255 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: protectionist economics, but a lot of it is ethnic and 256 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: cultural protectionism that I think threatens the whole enterprise to 257 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: which we gave so much of our lives and politics. 258 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: And one thing that strikes me as really ironic today 259 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: as I look around the world is that people who 260 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 1: actually governed from what I would call a vital center. 261 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: That is, they're not centrists in the sense of a 262 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: little bit of this, a little bit of that, don't 263 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: do much. There are people that actually find solutions that 264 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: can command the support of a majority of the people 265 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: and move the voters seem to like it once they 266 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: get in. But increasingly in countries with a lot of 267 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: political polarization, they won't They can't bring themselves to vote 268 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: for what they say they want. And I think that's 269 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: that's a a serious problem, particularly in the information ecostructure 270 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: we live in a day. So what's what's your take 271 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: on that. Will a parliamentary system like the U K's 272 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: have an easier time adjusting to that and overcoming it 273 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: than a system like the one we year? Um So, 274 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: I don't think it makes a difference if you have 275 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: a parliamentary system or not. Everywhere in the West right now, 276 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: you've got this polarized politics, and it's partly because the 277 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: political activists in the mainstream parties have become quite radicalized, 278 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: either on the nationalist right or or on the the left, 279 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: around issues like to kind of identity politics and so on. 280 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: And I still think and it would be interesting actually 281 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 1: there you think about this, But I still think this 282 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: is basically a supply side problem. In other words, when 283 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: when you present people with what you call a vital center, 284 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: and I sometimes call it a radical center or a 285 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: more muscular center in other ways, we're not splitting the 286 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: difference between left and right, but you're trying to understand 287 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: the way the world's changing and apply it terms are 288 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: values to a changing situation. I think that's the best 289 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: position for progressive politics, and I think it usually wins 290 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: when it offers that. And you know, the truth is, 291 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: for the people doing the nationalists and right wing politics, 292 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: it is populist and it therefore is to a degree popular, 293 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: but it's much more about writing the anger than providing 294 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: the answer. And in the end, I think it's you know, 295 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: there is a desire amongst the population at large in 296 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: all of our countries to have a reasonable politics, but 297 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: it's often not on offer. You know. So if you 298 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: look around Europe, you know mac cron gets reelected, Schultz 299 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: was elected in Germany. Really is the successor to mercle 300 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: In Italy, drag is that having been the head of 301 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: the European Central Bank is now the prime minister. You know, 302 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: President Biden was in many ways elector because there were 303 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: independents who said, look, it's not for me, just about policy. 304 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 1: I don't like the way the previous president has been 305 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: handling the issues, and we need to bring people together. 306 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: So I think there's a that the desire is there. 307 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: I think the challenge for us is to realize the 308 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: world is changing, and the world is changing very very fast, 309 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: so you have a technology revolution is changing everything. And 310 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: respect of globalization, I still think the process of globalization 311 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: in the sense of the world moving closer together and 312 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: being interdependent, I think that's still completely valid. But I 313 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: do think, for example, you will find situations where people 314 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: think they're vulnerable unless they onshore or re shore, where 315 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: for example, people I think it's sensible as technology developed, 316 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: to do more in your own country, But I don't 317 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: think that alters the basic point, which is the world 318 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: is going to be interdependent, needs to work together on 319 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 1: its problems. And if that reversal of globalization or movement 320 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: against globalization ends up in things like protectionism, it's just 321 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: going to damage people and lose jobs that am I. 322 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: You're am I right in thinking it's a it's a 323 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: supply problem, not a demand problem. Or do you think 324 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: actually what people want is that more populist politics Until 325 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: they get it, I think that they have been preconditioned 326 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: to want it by various changes in the information ecostructure 327 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: and and the fact that at least in the United States, 328 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: the the ride has been more adept at organizing in 329 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: local elections and taking over state legislatures and things like that. 330 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me, and I was a governor, 331 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: for example, back in the late seventies and throughout the eighties, 332 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 1: there was a general consensus that state government was primarily 333 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: about schools and jobs. We provided a lot of social services, 334 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: a lot of particularly in mental health, and there were 335 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: other things that were really legitimate issues and could become 336 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: big issues if there was a problem and delivery. But 337 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: by and large there were these dueling notions of the 338 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: government's role in providing an educated electorate and then developing 339 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: an economy that maximized their potential. Now, if you try 340 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: to have that conversation in the hard rights States, they'll 341 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: simply say, well, we just don't believe that whatever that 342 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: is two and two A is for as an opinion, 343 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: that's the education establishment. You call everything you don't agree 344 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: with an establishment. And it's very deeply troubling to me, 345 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: because there is uh it's difficult to get people just 346 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: to think and to feel free to do that. It's 347 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: it's really I realized it's probably much more pronounced in 348 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: the United States than anywhere in Europe. There was a 349 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: recent analysis that said it was But I'm concerned about 350 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,719 Speaker 1: it because I think I'm with you, whether you like 351 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: it or not. The world is interdependent. We can't escape 352 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: each other. So this whole deal is an argument about 353 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: how to define our interdependence and how to make it 354 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,239 Speaker 1: as positive as possible and reduce the negative consequences as 355 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: much as possible. For people who deny our interdependence, they 356 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: guarantee that the negative side will defeat the positive side. 357 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: So with the long run, I think it's really bad. 358 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: But it sure seems to be working well in elections. Yeah, 359 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 1: I guess. So you've got social media that is a 360 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: new revolutionary phenomenal changes the way politics works. Because look, 361 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: you and I both know that one of the first 362 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: lessons you learn in politics is that those that shout 363 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 1: louders don't deserve to be heard most right. But social 364 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: media is the very opposite of that, right. It's the 365 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: it's the you know, it's the platform, frankly of the 366 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: very loud loud people. So I think that is a 367 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: huge problem. I think, my my views, the populists exploit grievances, 368 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: but they don't necessarily invent them. In other ways, there 369 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: is a kernel of genuine anxiety, you know, So whenever 370 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm debating issues of immigration this side and water, I say, no, 371 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: there is a real issue, but we can deal with 372 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: it through proper rules that don't descend into prejudices, right, 373 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: And I think you know, there is a way of 374 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: of creating This is why you need a center that 375 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: that's that that is radical and vital, because you've got 376 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: to show it can deliver solutions to those grievances. And 377 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: if it's you know where where I always find our 378 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: side of politics very weak is when we give people 379 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: a choice that's essentially moderate and dull or exciting and extremes. 380 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: Because you know, that's a pretty grizzly choice to make, 381 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: especially if you're a young person. You want to be inspired. 382 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: You want to be inspired by something that's exciting but 383 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: also sensible. And I think that's our biggest challenge, and 384 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: you're going to do that in a world of social 385 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: media where that that type of rational discussion is often difficult. 386 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: My point is there, when you really drill down, Okay, 387 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: you do have these very loud voices, but in the end, 388 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, I still have faith that if you offer 389 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: something that is a movement for change from the center 390 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: and not a management the status quoted you could win 391 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: through more after this, Can you give us some examples 392 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: of governments that you've worked with that our listeners may 393 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: not be all that familiar with, and you think are 394 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: successfully taking on the challenges facing their countries. Yes, so 395 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: we we we work with governments that My institutes are 396 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: not for profit and basically we put teams of people 397 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: in to help governments make change. And that could be 398 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: you know, everything from way government's organized the center to 399 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 1: how you deliver a proper maternal and child mortality program. 400 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 1: For example, in COVID, we help countries register vaccinations use 401 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: the data in order to gain a better understanding of 402 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: the health care system. We've helped do energy projects where 403 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: there's a real need for energy and power, but you 404 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: want the developing world to develop in a way that's 405 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: that's clean, you know. So it's everything. And by the way, 406 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: one of the things comes very specific from something you 407 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: and I once had a conversation about when I was 408 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: leader of the opposition. I went to visit you in 409 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: the in the White House. Um, and I remember you. 410 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: I came to see you in the White House and 411 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: I was leader of the opposition. We were doing well, 412 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: but obviously I wasn't Prime minister. You were in your 413 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: in your second term as president, and you said to 414 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: me when I went into the White House state there, 415 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: you said, remind me before you leave, I've got to 416 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: tell you something really important. And I was convinced you 417 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: were going to tell me some great state secret. You know, 418 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: you were going you were going to say, look, there 419 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: really is there's a Western Plan, and it's in the 420 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: vault of the White House, and I'm now going to 421 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: share it with you. He said. I was quite I 422 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 1: was quite enthralled by this. Anyway, you didn't say the 423 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: thing to me, and as I was leaving, I said 424 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: to you, so, what was it you have to tell me? 425 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: And you said, oh yeah. You said, You've got to 426 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: organize your office around you very very carefully. You've got 427 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: to make sure that you retain time for thinking that 428 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: you're actually got a political strategy and not just a 429 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: series of disconnected tactics. And I confess at the time 430 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 1: I was little underweld because I thought that this was 431 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: short of, you know, the great World plan that you 432 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: were about the Gidney. But when I'm working with governments 433 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: today around the world, I often tell them that story, 434 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: and I say as a result of that, when I 435 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: came into power and was governing, I suddenly realized it's okay, 436 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: you win power on being a great persuader. You get 437 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: into power, you've got to be the great executive. You've 438 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: got to make things happen. And how you organize your 439 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: infrastructure around you. You know, if you've got the right 440 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: people advising, if you've got your just managing your diary 441 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: in the ist effective way so that you're meeting the 442 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: right people, thinking the right things, spending time in your priorities. 443 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: And I think you know this is one of the 444 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: things that fascinates me is that all of these things 445 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: which are about the practical ability to govern, well, all 446 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: of it should be driven by values, but very little 447 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: when you're rich actually in government should be the product 448 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: of ideological preconception. It's often about practical solutions, and it's 449 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: as much about an understanding the world in order to 450 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: change it as it is about conventional policy. Thanks for 451 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: saying that. I agree with that. And I think that 452 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that people who have your philosophy 453 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: and learn have to keep in mind is that the 454 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: people who wanted to feed us have to make elections 455 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: about something else, not about those people and about their empower, 456 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: but about whether you're too far left or not left 457 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: enough for you know, your second cousin stolely used car, 458 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: whatever it is, anything that you know to make it 459 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: about you, to make it about representation, destruction, operation, and 460 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: so keeping having the discipline and picking the people necessary 461 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: to have an outer focus and utter focus the people 462 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: focused administration. I think it's very important. It doesn't mean 463 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: you shouldn't answer legitimate criticisms about you or questions people 464 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: may have. But the general thing I find is if 465 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: you spend too much time a day playing defense, you know, 466 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: especially against very sort of personal sneering attacks, you're losing 467 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: even if you're winning. I mean, I used to tell 468 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: people when they talk to me, and they said, why 469 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: don't you talk about all this whitewater business. I said, well, 470 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: we do answer it every day. The lawyers answered, and 471 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: I said, you know, if if they're making ground on something, 472 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: we monitor and then we go after that. But if 473 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: I in this climate get asked a question about whitewater 474 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: and I give an answer on the scale of one 475 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 1: attend to attend, that's not nearly as good as giving 476 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: a six answer two, are we going to grow manufacturing jobs? 477 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: What are we doing with a human genome? What do 478 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: you name it? Anything? Because sooner or later people will say, 479 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: if all you do is answer questions about from your critics, 480 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: shouldn't you resign the office? And do You're doing a 481 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: great job of it, but you don't have any time 482 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: for me. Because one of the most stunning thing that 483 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: happened to me and my first six months as president 484 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: was we did something that had never been done before, 485 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's been done since. We 486 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: had a town hall meeting in effect with let's say 487 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: a hundred and some people in the rose Garden of 488 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: the White House, picked from the line that forms the 489 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: tour of the White House every day. Totally, we had 490 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: no idea what the profile was. We just you come in, 491 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: ask your questions. So this guy said, uh, you know, 492 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: I voted for you because you promised to focus on 493 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: the economy like a laser, and all you've done since 494 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: you've been in office is trying to get gays in 495 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: the military. He said, I'm not I don't know that. 496 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: I'm how I feel about that, but I'm pretty sure 497 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: it's not the most important thing we're facing. And I 498 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: said to him, you know, it's interesting. I just passed 499 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: the six months, uh mark. So I had an analysis 500 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: done of my time, and I spent sixty percent of 501 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: my time on the economy and four two percent on 502 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: foreign policy, and in the national security foreign policy and 503 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: national security. And I said, in the national security category, 504 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: I had a meeting at their request with the Joint 505 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: chiefs of Staff about gays in the military. I didn't 506 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: have the meeting until nine at night, so we wouldn't 507 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: spend all day talking about it, and I wouldn't say 508 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: much about it because I couldn't tell which way this 509 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: was going. And I said, otherwise, I have spent a 510 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: grand total of thirty minutes on this in six months. 511 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he said, I'm sorry, 512 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: but I just don't believe you. And this is even 513 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: more hypercharge now than it was then. That whoever is 514 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: going to run today, if you seek to do what 515 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: you talked about, you know, to govern in the space 516 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: of creativity and even sometimes radical change, but one that 517 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: can bring people together around values. It takes an extraordinary 518 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: amount of discipline and an interesting team, a team of 519 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: people whose warning lights go off if they think you're 520 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: about to be caught in essentially being your own defense 521 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: attorney and a defamation trial, because no matter how good 522 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: you are, it doesn't work. Now that's a hundred cent 523 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the thing is, I always think 524 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: that the right wing politics are just infinitely more ruthless 525 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: than than than our side, and they have absolutely no 526 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: compunction about coming after you on anything they possibly can, 527 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: anything that is personal, because they also think it's a 528 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: destabilizing thing. They try and destabilize the team around you. 529 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: And the other thing is they do defend their own 530 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: whereas the progressive or liberal side you tend to sort 531 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: of join in there, you know, once they get into 532 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: govern but they always feel kind of guilty that they're 533 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: there because surely they must have done something unprincipled to 534 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: arrive at this position in government, because you know, they 535 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: are a naturally you know, anti establishment view. And the 536 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: point is it therefore means that what you've got to be, 537 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: you've got to have that iron discipline. And I often 538 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: say to people in the Labor Party, we've suffered now 539 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: and another four election defeats. There were four election defeats 540 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: before my time. There have been four election defeats since 541 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: that time. Sometimes with people in the Labor Party, they 542 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: say to me, you know, would tell us how to win? 543 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: And I start by saying, would tell me, is your 544 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: priority winning? And they kind of go, you know, of 545 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 1: course it's winning, and I say, no, it's not, of course, 546 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: because a lot of the progressive side of politics, it's objective. Yes, 547 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: it's to win, but it's primary purposes to make itself 548 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: feel good about itself, right, is to convince itself that 549 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: it's principle right. But that is, in the end, something 550 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: that leads you to self indulgence. In the end, if 551 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: you really believe in what you believe in, you don't 552 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: have to convince yourself because you know you believe in it. 553 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: The important thing is to get into power to do 554 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,479 Speaker 1: it and to be able to implement. And I think 555 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: what it means is you do have to play defense. 556 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: Not in the sense you're talking about the personal attacks, 557 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: but for example, if your opponents are going to come 558 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: after you, let's say, all of this stuff on culture 559 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: and the culture wars at the moment, if if you 560 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: want to if you want to win, you've got to 561 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: be in the center of gravity of opinion on these things. 562 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: You cannot be in the situation where some loose remark 563 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: from someone's going to be taken as indicative of the 564 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: whole political position you've got, and then you just hammer 565 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: day in day out that that's just that's just not 566 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: competent politics. So you've got to be able to build 567 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 1: your defensive capabilities against the onslaught that comes from the right. 568 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: But then of course you you you use that not 569 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: in order to play defense. You use that to be 570 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: able to project a vision of the future that is 571 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: one that's optimistic and that allows people to think, well, yeah, 572 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 1: and these guys are gonna make my life better. But 573 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, we we we constantly, our side of politics 574 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: has this constant desire to get to do this introspection 575 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: on itself to examine whether you know, it's portraying its 576 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: own cause, and it really, I mean, I don't know, 577 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: maybe it's a little different with the Democrats, but the 578 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: British Labor Party, you could in a hundred and twenty 579 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: years of history, this has been our you know, this 580 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: has been our our fully, our perennial fully, and you know, 581 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: we end up losing to conservatives and persuading ourselves that 582 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: we lost because we weren't left wing enough, which is 583 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: I always say to people, is a you know, it's 584 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: an odd assessment of the British people ahead the vote 585 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: conservative because you weren't wing enough. Yeah, you know, it's 586 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: like people said to me, you know, people really wanted 587 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: Jeremy Corbyn and you know who's leader of the Labor 588 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: Party where we suffered the last election de feat which 589 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 1: is terrible. And I said, what what makes you think 590 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 1: if they've been voting conservative the three elections what they 591 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: want is a really left wing Labor Party when they've 592 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: been rejecting a moderately left Labor party. But anyway, the 593 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: point is, to your point, you've got to if you're 594 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: going to defeat this populism, because it's a very virulent 595 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: thing on the right now, you have to be really 596 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: tough minded about it because the truth is, if you 597 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: end up allowing the right to retake power. Yeah, there 598 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: are elements of the right today which aren't like the 599 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: right wing that we were growing up with. The right 600 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: wing that I grew up with. There a lot of 601 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: things that didn't like I post them a lot, but 602 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: they were basically quite practical people. What happens somewhere in 603 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: the last twenty odd years is the right wing got ideology. 604 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: They got the ideology bug, and that ideology is quite 605 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 1: frightening at points. I completely agree with that, and I 606 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: don't think you can, you know, win it back by 607 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: talking down to people or you know, actn like they 608 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. The Republicans of in America 609 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: found out that, well, maybe they'll go along with these 610 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: radicals in the Republican Party and taking the election away 611 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: and making it harder for some constituency vote or whatever. 612 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 1: But we have now made it easier by letting the 613 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: loose lips sink ship syndrome for them to win a 614 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: legitimate election, by just scaring the living daylights out of 615 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: anybody that's got something to lose. That's what no one 616 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: seems to understand. I mean, the the the average person 617 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: has a limited bandwidth for Paul six. But they know 618 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: if they're generally doing better or not. They know if 619 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: they've got a chance to raise their kids well or not, 620 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: and so, and they'll listen if you want to do 621 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: something that they think will help them on their life's journey. 622 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: But but you cannot. I completely agree with you that 623 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: you I don't think you can let charges that affect 624 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: the way they think you would affect their lives. You 625 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: can't let those things go. You have to answer those 626 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: but it always has to be thrown back to the people. 627 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: I told people, you know, you sometimes the Democrats look 628 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 1: bad because they were afraid. They were, like you said, 629 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: had a guilt complex about whether they were perfectly progressive. 630 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: But it was also they've a lot too much on 631 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: poles in this country in the sense that it's like 632 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: they're afraid to get beat. And I think one of 633 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: the ways you won elections is by talking straight with 634 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: people and giving them permission to vote against you. I 635 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: think that's an enormous power, in the fact you don't 636 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: say I give you permission to vote against it, but 637 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: you you talk about it in a way that will 638 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: this If you really disagree with this, that then you 639 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: will go out and take another choice. But here's why 640 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: I think it's better for you. And we have to 641 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: learn to talk to people quite apart from the specifics, 642 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: in a way that they can relate to. You know. 643 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: I worry sometimes we sound like, well, of course everybody 644 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: knows I saturday other thing. Well, of course they don't sure, 645 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: So what what makes you optimistic? Why do you think 646 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: that what we believe is important will catch on enough 647 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: to basically avoid the worst consequences of climate change, deal 648 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: with this massive migration problem. Uh'll answer the legitimate questions 649 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: about the quality of opportunity and maybe start this assault 650 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: on the very idea of education. There somehow an establishment plot. 651 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,879 Speaker 1: What makes you optimistic about it? What makes me optimistic 652 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: is that even though I think as as as the 653 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: world has developed, we have the means of destroying ourselves, 654 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: whether through nuclear proliferation or through climate change, we also 655 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 1: have the means of getting a better future. And actually, 656 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: wherever I go, we we work in about thirty thirty 657 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: five different countries. Wherever you go, people are very different contexts, 658 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: need different lives and so on. But they basically all 659 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: of them want the same thing, which is, believe it 660 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: or not, they aspire to, you know, getting on in life, 661 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: raising a family, living in peace and security. You know, 662 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: they want to live in a community of people and 663 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: not just as an individual. You know, all of the 664 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: things I find most people in the end are open minded, 665 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: not close minded. You just need to create the world 666 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: in which they feel confident in doing that and that's 667 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: our task. So the reason for my optimism is that 668 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: virtually everywhere I go in the world today, I'm seeing 669 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 1: those types of people. Now in the end, that is 670 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 1: also the future success for their country. So if you 671 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: if you, if you want to succeed as the country 672 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: that it's all about being connected, it's all about your 673 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,479 Speaker 1: people being educated, it's all about open mindedness, it's about 674 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: crossing the boundaries of faith and race and culture and nation, 675 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: and those are the people that are going to succeed. 676 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: So I think this is why I think, you know, 677 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: if we've focus on what are the things necessary to 678 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: create that sense of hope and optimism because the world 679 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: is moving towards a more open minded view despite all 680 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: the forces pushing against that. Ultimately there's a very strong 681 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,359 Speaker 1: human force pushing in favor of it. Then I think, 682 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,839 Speaker 1: you know, we will succeed, and I don't. There's no 683 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:10,000 Speaker 1: reason for us. I mean, we started with Ukraine and 684 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: we can, in a sense bring it full circle. It's 685 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: an amazing thing. Those people were invaded. They're fighting for 686 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: their country, but they're not just fighting for their their 687 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,799 Speaker 1: their homeland. They're fighting for an idea of what their 688 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: future can be as a as an independent country coming 689 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: within the European family, offering their young people hope for 690 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: the future. And I think that human spirit, which I 691 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: believe is basically benign, even though people of course can 692 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 1: behave very badly, that human spirit is what we'll see 693 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: us through ultimately. But it's you know, in these agency 694 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: and needs us to get behind it and do it. 695 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: I always feel better when I talk to you. Likewise, 696 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: when I talk to you, well, I just hope now 697 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 1: that we're at the grandparents stage of life, that we 698 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: are leaving things in a manageable way, and that our 699 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: grandchildren at least will confront new problems and different problems 700 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: and have new horizons. And uh, I think there's a 701 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 1: good chance we will if we avoid this sort of 702 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: negative populism where everybody thinks their victimhood is greater than 703 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: everybody else's. There are real victims in life, and we 704 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 1: should focus on them. But for the rest of us, 705 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: we should focus on empowerment, not victimhood. Well, I'm into that. 706 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Tony, and thanks for the court 707 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 1: of century of friendship. Okay, thanks Bill, thank you very much, 708 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. Why am I telling you this is a 709 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: production of Our Heart Radio, the Clinton Foundation and at 710 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: Will Medium. Our executive producers are Craig Menascian and Will Manati. 711 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: Our production team includes Jamison Katsufas, Tom Galton, Sarah Harowitz, 712 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: and Jake Young, with production support from Liz Rafferee and 713 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: Josh Farnham. Original music by Wat White. Special thanks to 714 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: John Sykes, John Davidson, on hell Orina, Corey Ganstley, Kevin 715 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 1: thurm Oscar Flores, and all our dedicated staff and partners 716 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:31,320 Speaker 1: at the Clinton Foundation. Hi, I'm Dr Mike Kimpill, Director 717 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: of the Presidential Leadership scholars Program, one of a kind 718 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: partnership between the presidential centers of Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, 719 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush, and Lyndon Baines Johnson. President Clinton 720 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: often says that the key to great leadership is in 721 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: finding our common humanity, something that's needed now more than ever. 722 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,800 Speaker 1: That's why each year we bring together a dramatically diverse 723 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,919 Speaker 1: group of leaders, from doctors to teachers, elected officials to scientists, 724 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: active military, arian veterans, all of whom have a passion 725 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: for making the world a better place. We create a 726 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: culture of collaboration that transcends partisan divides and ideological differences 727 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: in service of a greater good. Today, presidential leadership scholars 728 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 1: across the country are working together and actively applying the 729 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,839 Speaker 1: lessons learned in our program to help tackle today's most 730 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,160 Speaker 1: pressing challenges. You can learn more about this work and 731 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: see how you can get involved by visiting www dot 732 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: Clinton Foundation dot org. Slash podcast