1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero, I am Akshatrati. For the past three decades, 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: the UK has led the world in reducing emissions. It's 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: still true, but you might think otherwise given the political 4 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: rhetoric coming from the government in power. One big reason 5 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: why the home of the Industrial Revolution has been ahead 6 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: in the race to reign in emissions is the Climate 7 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Change Act of two thousand and eight. It bound the 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: government to carbon budgets that forced it to limit how 9 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: much planet warming emissions it can spew In any five years, 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: each budget is smaller, taking the government to zero emissions 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: by twenty fifty. Those budgets are informed by the science 12 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: and overseen by the Climate Change Committee. For the past 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: six years, the committee has been led by Chris Starr. 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: As the chief executive of the CCC, He's had a 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: delicate job to do, advising on policies that would put 16 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: government back on track to meet climate goals, and admonishing 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: the government when necessary. That job has become harder over 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: the past year as Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has tried 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: to back peddle on green policies. It has empowered a 20 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: partisan media to create doubts around the political consensus to 21 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: Act on Climate Change, something that has been a hallmark 22 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: of UK politics for the past fifteen years. Stark is 23 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: stepping down from his role later this month, and I 24 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: wanted to hear how he has navigated the growing divisions 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: and what might be ahead for his successor That matters 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: a lot with the UK holding an election this year 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: that could determine whether Sunak remains in power or is 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: replaced by a more climate friendly government. We also talked 29 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: about how the CCC has played outside the UK, shaping 30 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: the way many governments around the world approached climate policy. Chris, 31 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. 32 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me action well before. 33 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: We come to the net zero and the sort of 34 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: phase under your leadership at the CCC. The institution itself 35 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: is sixteen years old. It was created as part of 36 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: the UK's Climate Change Act, and it was created at 37 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: a time where all political parties came together to back 38 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: the Act and back the creation of the CCC. Can 39 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: you just talk through what made that moment so special 40 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: given the politics of today which seem a lot more divided. 41 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 3: The Climate Change Act in the UK is the product 42 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: of a particular period in Britain politics. So the Act 43 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: was put into low in two thousand and eight, and 44 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 3: therefore the work on it was happening in the year 45 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: prior to that. So if you cast your mind back 46 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 3: to British politics, we had a different type of British 47 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 3: politics at the time on climate change. We had a 48 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 3: feeling that the UK was in the lead intellectually at 49 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 3: least on the story of climate change, and the UK 50 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 3: could in place this piece of legislation. 51 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: But the bill was supported. 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: By David Cameron's government in preparation a few holdouts, but 53 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: not many, and that led to a very strong piece 54 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: of legislation which essentially set out the idea in a 55 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: nutshell that the government needs to act on this. It's 56 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: their responsibility to tackle it. They need some rules to 57 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: do that. But that in itself was not enough that 58 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: you needed something else to stand over that, which is 59 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: the CCC, the Climate Change Committee, just to keep providing 60 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: the evidence, also give the advice on the targets, and 61 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: then to check the government's homework essentially for Parliament. 62 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: And that works. 63 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 3: I think we've demonstrated in sixteen years that it works, 64 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: not least because we've upgraded the long term target over 65 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 3: the time of the Act to a net zero target 66 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: from what you used to be an eighty percent target, 67 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: and that I think is a demonstration that politics also 68 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: comes around eventually periodically to support that. And I think 69 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: it's important to say that we have these moments regularly 70 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: in British politics, and I've been in this job during 71 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 3: one of them. It's quite you can despair when you 72 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: see the politics going in a different direction. But my 73 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: view generally of climate politics is that it's a bit 74 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: like a ratchet. You get periods of really increasing ambition 75 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: and then it falls back a bit, but it never 76 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 3: falls back to where you started. So I think there 77 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: is an ongoing progress in climate politics that you can 78 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: see playing out. 79 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was only three members of Parliament who voted 80 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: against the Act, more than four hundred who voted for it, 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: and there were a bunch of absenties. Now in the 82 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: creation you've got the Climate Change Committee. It's an independent 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: government funded but independent body that has goals and policies. 84 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 1: Eventually you provide the technical know how of how to 85 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: meet goals and then policy advice on what needs to 86 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: be done, but you also act as a watchdog just 87 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: making sure that the government is actually making progress on 88 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: these goals. And the advice that you give can have 89 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: big implications. Right. The straightforward one is governments do what 90 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: you say, but if they don't, then nonprofits can use 91 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: your advice to show governments are failing. For example, in 92 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, a number of NGOs sued the UK 93 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: government for not being on track to meet its climate goals. 94 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: They won the case and the government was forced to respond. 95 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: What are other good examples of the impact that CCC's 96 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: work has had on the UK's that zero trajectory? 97 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: Gosh, that's a difficult one to answer quickly. I mean, 98 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 3: you've raised one of them. So the watchdog rule is 99 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: laid out very clearly in the Act, but it's become 100 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: very important and you write the ng us and others 101 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: civil society uses ours as a means to encourage more 102 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: action from the government. I think the bit that's not 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 3: so well understood is that we have this advisory role. 104 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: But what's really interesting is that we basically every five 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: years we package up the latest piece of advice. We 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: do a fresh piece of analysis what we call bottom 107 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: up piece of analysis, and across every bit of the 108 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 3: economy to look at how you can decarbonize it. What's 109 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 3: been really interesting and I frankly inspirational actually, But the 110 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 3: UK Act and that model is that turns out there's 111 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 3: a lot more going on than just a piece of 112 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: analysis when you give that advice on the carbon budget. 113 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: What we're looking at is a fundamental shift in every 114 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 3: corner of the economy, and the private sector has a 115 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 3: real interest in that work. And what's happened over the 116 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: sixteen years of having a Climate Change Act is really interesting. 117 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: It's not what you see written in the Climate Change Act. 118 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 3: We now do a piece of work where we're trying 119 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 3: to build consensus sectors of the economy for the transition 120 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: and the change that lies ahead. And if I take 121 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 3: one example of that, when I started in this job, 122 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 3: we had a very difficult discussion as an institution with 123 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 3: the aviation sector. So it's a high misting sector. We 124 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: don't have the answer as to how we can get 125 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: to zero emissions, certainly not by twenty fifty, and we 126 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: were essentially in opposition with that sector because we were 127 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 3: a threat. We in recent years have turned that into 128 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 3: a much more productive discussion with aviation sector. We're essentially 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 3: saying to the aviation sector, look, here's how we see 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 3: the path ahead for aviation emissions. We also agree on 131 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: a lot of the technologies that the aviation sector itself 132 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 3: will deploy to make aviation more efficient. 133 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: That basically means the aviation. 134 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 3: Sector, when we produce our report, will say we agree 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: with the CCC, now please put policy in place to 136 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: support it. And that is a very powerful message to government. 137 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 3: And I suppose I didn't anticipate that when I started 138 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: this job. And it's not just an aviation You see 139 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: that in the energy sectors, you see that in the 140 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: industrial sectors. You even see that in one of the 141 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: hardest areas. 142 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: Which is buildings. 143 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: There is a lot of consensus now behind the analysis 144 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 3: that we produce, and that's how change happens. Essentially, that 145 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 3: we've become much more of a change agent than I 146 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: think was envisaged when the Climate Change Act was first written. 147 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 3: But we've got to wear that very carefully. We are 148 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: not advocates. There is a line that we must never 149 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: cross in the CCC between advice and advocacy, and one 150 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: of the challenges of my job is to make sure 151 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: that we're policing that line carefully. 152 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 2: We walk close to it, of course, but we can't 153 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: cross it. 154 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: That's a less appreciated advantage of having a body like 155 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: the CCC, But at its core, from a public perspective, 156 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: you still remain an advisor and a watchdog. And while 157 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: you're independent, even though you're fully funded by the government, 158 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: your advice and your reports on progress on government can 159 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: ruffle a few feathers. But in doing your job over 160 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: the last six years, you've also lived through increased political 161 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: polarization on the net zero issue, and that shows up 162 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: not just in the politics but also in the media discourse. 163 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: Places like the Daily Mail has been using CCC's advice 164 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: is people have to now give up meat because the 165 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: CCC says so, or the Telegraph has been trying to 166 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: find emails about CCC's bias on certain topics. So what 167 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: have you done to be able to stand your ground 168 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: and continue to have that independence and credibility in this period? 169 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: I feel we have a platform and that's legitimate, and 170 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: that's provided by the Climate Change Act. And the second 171 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 3: thing is that I don't think we should use that 172 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: platform unless we've got analysis to support a statement. So 173 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 3: the temptation is to comment on everything, and you're right 174 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: to raise the newspapers in the UK particularly we have 175 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: a particular brand of newspaper, a tabloid outlook on it 176 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 3: that leads often to a request for us to comment 177 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: on literally everything. Most of my job when it comes 178 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 3: to comms, as we call it, is saying no to things, actually, 179 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: but where we have analysis, where we have numbers, where 180 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: we have a view, I also feel it's legitimate, in 181 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 3: fact necessary for us to make sure that people understand 182 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 3: that and to project that as loudly as we feel 183 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 3: we need to, and that has taken us into different discussions, 184 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: certainly in the time I've done this job, because prior 185 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: holders of this job didn't take that view, and I 186 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: had a chairman, Lord Deebon, John Selwyn Gummer, a member 187 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 3: of the Thatcher government and now in the House of Lords, 188 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 3: who really supported that view that it was important for 189 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: the Climate Change Committee to state its view where it 190 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 3: had the analysis, but where we don't, we've got to 191 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: shut up. So and there's lots and lots of areas 192 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 3: where we don't have the sporting analysis, and I think 193 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 3: that often frustrates, particularly my friend in the green movement, 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: that we go so far but not as far as 195 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: they might like. And I think that's the challenge really 196 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 3: is that our role is only going to be defensible 197 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 3: if we stick to our knitting, as we say in Scotland, 198 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: and stick to where we have the analysis. Some of 199 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 3: the newspapers in the UK now make me a target 200 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: is because I'm determined that where we've done the analysis, 201 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: i will defend it and I'll put it out there, 202 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: and I am frustrated when there are nefarious interest to 203 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 3: take pot shots of the analysis on without the same 204 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: analytical basis, because I feel it's important that we stand 205 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 3: our ground. 206 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: Now, you do this for government, but if you look 207 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: at your own work, those are very good lessons to have, 208 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: which is you want to be backed by data, have 209 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: clear communication, give options, give advice and not be an advocate. 210 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: Very important lessons in divided times. But how effective has 211 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: that strategy been, especially in the recent years. Right even 212 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: though the UK can legitimately claim that it has reduced 213 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: the most emissions among large economies since nineteen ninety, the 214 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: CCC has been warning the UK government for a few 215 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: years now that it's not on track to meet its 216 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: end of decade goals. And despite those warnings, Prime Minister 217 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: Rishisunak has approved new Orlean gas licenses, delayed a ban 218 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: of fossil fuel cars, and even approved a new coal mine. 219 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: So all things said and done, the cecc provides advice 220 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: and then the government doesn't follow it. So is the 221 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: era of climate consensus over? And is CCC's credible advice 222 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: now not worth what it used to be. 223 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 3: I don't think the era of climate consensus is over. 224 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 3: There is always a risk that it might be soon, though, 225 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 3: and I think we've got to keep thinking about that. 226 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 3: We've got a general election coming up in the UK 227 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: at some point, probably this year. I don't think climate 228 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: change itself will be an electoral issue, the manner in 229 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 3: which we approach net zero might be, and that is 230 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: probably the first time that's been the case. And I 231 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: still believe there is a political consensus behind net zero 232 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 3: and behind addressing climate change. But I also believe that 233 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: the minute that you get complacent about that, you risk 234 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: losing it, and you've got to keep remaking the arguments 235 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: for the age. So we're in an interesting moment where 236 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: I feel the narrative has shifted on net zero, and 237 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: of course that's a political concern, but political concerns eventually 238 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: turned into concerns in the real economy too, so we 239 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 3: need to keep working at this. My own view on 240 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 3: net zero is we're probably past the point where net 241 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: zero itself is enough as a reason to do something. 242 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: In British politics, there. 243 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: Was a period in the early part of it where 244 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: once we'd established net zero as the goal, you could 245 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 3: simply slap net zero on a program and say that's 246 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 3: why we're doing it, and that would be enough to 247 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 3: earn it political support in the government, certainly within the government, 248 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 3: So your policies coming out of government solely for the 249 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 3: reason they suppy to net zero. And the next stage 250 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 3: of this, I think is probably to use net zero 251 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: or climate as almost a secondary concern and get into 252 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 3: the question of why you might want to do something 253 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 3: else first and for there to be a benefit to 254 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 3: net zero too. You know, the set of issues that 255 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: we face as a country when it comes to the 256 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 3: economy are driven by the usual concerns about jobs, investment. 257 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: They need to regenerate parts of the UK. You can 258 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: use net zero as a way to think that through. 259 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 3: We need jobs in places that have suffered from not 260 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: having investment in industry up and down the country outside 261 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 3: of the southeast of England, and we need to do 262 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: this for those reasons and it will help net zero. 263 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: So we can look at the places of the UK 264 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: where we will develop green industries, low carbon industries. We 265 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 3: should do it for that reason, and net zero is 266 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 3: a secondary concern. You can extend it further. There are 267 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: people in this country quite rightly who worry about things 268 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: like energy security, in fact, more fundamentally the security of 269 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 3: the country. We need to do the right things to 270 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 3: develop an energy secure country and help net zero. You 271 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: can extend that further. People cared deeply about landscape beauty 272 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 3: in this country, as they should. We should be developing 273 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 3: beautiful landscapes, rewilding, supporting regenerative farming, doing all those things 274 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 3: and helping net zero. One of the most interesting things 275 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: I've done in my six years in this job was 276 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: the Climate Assembly, which was a process, a hugely interesting 277 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: process commissioned by the Select Committees in the Commons, six 278 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: Select committees in the Commons. Just after the net zero 279 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 3: target was set. They asked a question, look, how can 280 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 3: we understand what voters think? Were people in this country, 281 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: citizens of the country think about net zero? And the 282 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: Citizens Assembly that we did on that was fascinating because 283 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: we gathered together one hundred or so people of very 284 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 3: different views, and some of them really didn't care too 285 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 3: much about climate action, and in fact, we overstated that 286 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: in the group that we had those views. What's interesting 287 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: is many of the people who don't care about climate 288 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: change do care about some of the other things I've 289 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 3: talked about, energy, security, landscape, beauty, jobs, And I think 290 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 3: we're in a world where the evidence was there in 291 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: that assembly that if you go hard at those topics 292 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: and then tell them that this is also good for 293 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 3: the climate, it actually increases their support for that action. 294 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 3: So we're missing a trick, I suppose, if we're not 295 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 3: speaking to people who have different values and outlooks on this. 296 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: More from the conversation after the break. I actually attended 297 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: one of those sessions of the Assembly in February twenty twenty, 298 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: just before the COVID lockdowns began, and of course some 299 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: of that assembly then went virtual. But you once told 300 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: me a story about anonymous in that very assembly. What 301 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 1: was that story. 302 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the members of the assembly. We didn't 303 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 3: name them, but within the assembly we had we knew 304 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: who everyone was. One of the members of the Assembly 305 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: wished to go unnamed. Even in the physical meetings. And 306 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 3: his name was Anonymous, and he was quite an interesting 307 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 3: chat because he was definitely fearful of a lot of 308 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 3: the things that come with net zero, fearful of the 309 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 3: people who might implement those things, and are maybe not 310 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 3: fearful suspicious of the reason for all of this, I 311 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 3: might say, maybe a slight paranoia about that, the role 312 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: of government and all of this. Now, there are many 313 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: many people out there in the UK and around the 314 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: world who take that view. What was interesting the set 315 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 3: of things that Anonymous was interested in are things like 316 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 3: nuclear power, the nation's security. He didn't wish to see 317 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: changes to behavior, didn't want to see any of that 318 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: push through policy, and I think there's a big wedge 319 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: of people living in the UK who feel that way. If, however, 320 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 3: you frame up what's necessary for net zero in the 321 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 3: right way for him, he was very supportive of it, 322 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 3: really really supportive. When you say to him, look, nuclear 323 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 3: is a big part of the mix potentially in the future, Okay, 324 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 3: I support that. And if you say to them, look, 325 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 3: if we take that particular strategy that will be more 326 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 3: beneficial to the climate than this particular strategy. He would 327 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: typically choose the pro climate strategy as a preference. The 328 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 3: public support for it is there. We're actually trying to 329 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 3: do something that every country in the world will need 330 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: to do and therefore is a broader set of concerns 331 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 3: about trade and competitiveness and how the economy works that 332 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: really will matter, and we in the UK and really 333 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 3: needed to provide a template I suppose for other countries 334 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 3: to do that, and that argument. I think we've won that, 335 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: but we need to keep winning it if we want 336 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: other countries to follow suit. 337 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: And you mentioned Lord Davin, who was the former chair 338 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: of the CCC. He had said that last year lost 339 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: its leadership on climate and if that's the case, then 340 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: there's likely to be a change in government. Say a 341 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: Labor party comes in power here in the UK, what 342 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: would be your advice to Labor so that the UK 343 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: can regain the leadership on climate. 344 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: So in this podcast, I will not predict the outcome 345 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: of an election, but I'm happy to speculate. So in fact, 346 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: most of the things that we can speculate about, it 347 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 3: doesn't really matter who the government will be because after 348 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 3: the general election, whenever it is, let's assame, it's the autumn. 349 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 3: Nothing changes. We are still in the same position, and 350 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: you're right. Lord Deben made great play of the fact 351 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: that he felt the UK had lost its climate leadership. 352 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 3: The reason he said that is not because of looking 353 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: backwards where the UK is, because the UK has done 354 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 3: more than any G seven possibly in a G twenty 355 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: country to decarbonize itself, genuine decarbonization, not squeezing out carbon 356 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 3: to other parts of the world. This is actually decarbonization, 357 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 3: particularly through what we've done in the power sector. When 358 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: you look at that record as a very strong record. 359 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 3: His view on that comes to the fact that that's 360 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 3: not the outlook the Climate Change Committee takes. We don't 361 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 3: project forwards. What we do is project backwards from a 362 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: position of hitting the targets, and this idea of instead 363 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: of forecasting, we are hindcasting. We're standing in twenty fifty 364 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 3: and we're looking back to where we are today. We 365 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: know that we've hitting at zero in this world, and 366 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: we're asking ourselves a different question, which is, well, what 367 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 3: would we be seeing if we were on the right 368 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 3: path to that goal? What do I wish in twenty 369 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 3: fifty that we'd done sooner to get ourselves on this 370 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 3: low cost pathway with the minimum of friction with the 371 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: maximum of advantage and we're not seeing those things today 372 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 3: and that's the key thing the government. When we hosted 373 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 3: COP twenty six in Glasgow, my hometown, we set a 374 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 3: goal for twenty thirty to reduce emissions by sixty eight 375 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: percent from the nineteen ninety levels. You can use that 376 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 3: as a marker for where we need to be. We 377 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 3: would need to on recent progress. We need to increase 378 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 3: the pace of decarbonization in every sector, accept the power sector. 379 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 3: So take the power sector out of it, because we 380 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 3: know we're doing okay on that. Look outside that, beyond 381 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: the POWA sector. We've got to quadruple the pace of 382 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 3: decarbonization over the next six or seven years if you 383 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: want to hit that twenty thirty goal. We are not 384 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 3: seeing a policy package that will deliver that. And that 385 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 3: in Lord Deebn's framing also my own, is climate leadership. 386 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 3: It's about where you want to be in the future, 387 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 3: it's not where you've been in the past. And real 388 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 3: climate leadership is scaling up the policies now to deliver 389 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: that and encouraging the private sector response that comes with it. 390 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: And I suppose my final point on this is that 391 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 3: other countries will beat us at this if we don't 392 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: get at it. My biggest frustration as I leave this 393 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 3: job is the one I came in with when I started, 394 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: is that we cannot seem to see that it's happening. 395 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: The transition is underway, and the biggest risk to us 396 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 3: is that we miss out. I think actually that we 397 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: don't get on board with this, and that quadrupling of 398 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: effort is a way of framing the set of things 399 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 3: that you would want to see happen in the broader 400 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: economy anyway to be on board with this transition, to 401 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: be in the lead of a pack of countries that 402 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 3: will see the benefit of this. 403 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: First, a lot of your work is technical, but you 404 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: have to figure out a story that you tell after 405 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: doing that technical work that would land with policymakers, that 406 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: will land with the public. So in China, it's BID 407 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: the largest electric car maker, or COTL, the largest battery maker. 408 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: In the US, it's Tesla, well, until recently, the largest 409 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: electric car maker in denmarket's austered. We can go through 410 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: a list of countries that have these national champions that 411 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: are bringing jobs, that are bringing economic advantage, that are 412 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: playing a trade advantage. The national champions enable those countries, 413 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: those politicians in those countries to tell a story of success, 414 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: of being able to show exactly what leadership could look 415 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: like if we applied what Tesla has done in the 416 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: US to other sectors of the economy. Even though the 417 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: UK does have some leadership on things like doing grids 418 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: with high renewable penetration, there isn't a national champion. Do 419 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: you think we're missing a storytelling ploy in not having 420 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: a national champion. 421 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: I think you're probably right on that. 422 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 3: It would be so much easier to have a national 423 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 3: champion like Tesla to point to, and if you go 424 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 3: to Denmark, that is definitely part of the narrative there. 425 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 3: And the great advantage in advert commas that the UK 426 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: has is that our transition from fossil fuels is largely 427 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: designed or influenced by geology. We have demonstrated to the 428 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: rest of the world how you develop a renewables based 429 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 3: power system and see advantage from that. We're going to 430 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 3: run out of gas, in particular from the North Sea 431 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: over the course of this transition to net zero, and 432 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 3: we will have at the end of that depleted oil 433 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: and gas fields to put something back into So there 434 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: is an obvious discussion, but what can you do with that? 435 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 3: And it takes you quite obviously to storing hydrogen and 436 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 3: storing carbon and we need to try that, I think. 437 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: So there is a potential for the UK to have 438 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 3: some proper global leadership again in those areas and to 439 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: develop those national champions. Trouble with both of those sextes 440 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 3: is that the commercial opportunity and it's not quite as 441 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: clear as it is, for example, in Tesla, and I 442 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: think it still rests ultimately on policy and that's I 443 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: think the next Parliament's discussion actually is what do we 444 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 3: do about those things? 445 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: We're going to need to have them in the mix. 446 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: Do we see. 447 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 3: Commercial advantage growing out of that? Do we have that 448 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 3: kind of national champion that can go into other parts 449 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: of the of the world. 450 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: Well, when Tesla started, or Orsted was created, or BYD 451 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: was transitioning from being a battery maker to a karme, 452 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: none of the commercial advantages were quite clear as they 453 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: are now looking back. But if we stick to advantages 454 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: that could be brought in other economy advantages, the motivations 455 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: to stick to net zero while the other priorities which 456 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: are usually higher on the list for politicians can be met. 457 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: You've talked about this idea where think about economic policy, 458 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: the Treasury is so involved in shaping it. Right, it's 459 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: either the Treasury, it's central banks that will say, while 460 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: inflation is too high, we're going to ramp up interest rates. 461 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: That's going to affect how the treasury behaves. There's all 462 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: this economic financial stuff that enables the politics to happen. 463 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: Why does the Treasury not think of the carbon budget 464 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: as something that also needs to be managed? 465 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: Right? 466 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: It is very good at managing budgets and the Net 467 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: Zero Act gives the UK a carbon budget. You advice 468 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: on the carbon budget as the CCC, but why is 469 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: the Treasury not taking part in those discussions. 470 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: So there's two ways of framing the rule of the 471 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 3: Treasury in the last six years, let's stick to the 472 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: time I've done this job. One is that they are 473 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 3: a malign force in this and they continue to be 474 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: a barrier to progress. 475 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 2: The other is the. 476 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 3: One I take, which is that over the last six 477 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 3: years in particular, they have dramatically changed their outlook on 478 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 3: this and they're on a journey. I'm sure as an institution, 479 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: if you're not in the treasure I used to work 480 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 3: in the Treasury, So if you work in the Treasury, 481 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,439 Speaker 3: it's an amazingly creative place to be because the leavers 482 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: are there for you to do pretty much anything in 483 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: policy terms. Albeit it's a fiscal institution first and foremost. 484 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: But if you're. 485 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 3: Outside of that, if particularly you're in the department that 486 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: deals with climate policy, it looks like it looks like 487 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 3: a bit of gunment that holds you up, And it's 488 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: seductive to come back to that. And no doubt the 489 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: Treasury has over the years been a problem. But what's happened, 490 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: I think, and I've certainly worked personally quite hard at this, 491 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: is to develop the idea that net zero is not 492 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 3: the same as other policy objectives. It is more fundamental. 493 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,479 Speaker 3: It is something that must be done that has a 494 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 3: deep implication for the economy. And previously, the time that 495 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: CCC was created, we would have framed that as a 496 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 3: cost that was worth incurring. But increasingly we're now viewing 497 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 3: it as a benefit to the economy, and the Treasury 498 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 3: I think has accepted that. They've absolutely moved to see 499 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: it that way. I think I would say on this, 500 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 3: and you're right to frame it in the way that 501 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 3: you did actually, which is that they care about every 502 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: budget but one, and that is the carbon budget. And 503 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: I think it is interesting to think in the next parliament, 504 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 3: with potentially a new government, about the way in which 505 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 3: the Treasury might be given incentives to think more clearly 506 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 3: about that. My main criticism of the Treasury isn't that 507 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: they're a barrier. The main challenge I put back to 508 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 3: the Treasury is that they need to be more responsible 509 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 3: for their decisions. So if they I'm going to use 510 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 3: a very extreme example here, if they cancel a carbon 511 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 3: capture program and they have done because it's too expensive, 512 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 3: what do we do instead? And that's the beauty of 513 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 3: carbon budgeting is it gives you constrained decision making. We've 514 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 3: got to do a thing by twenty fifty and we've 515 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: got to achieve targets on the way to that. That's 516 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: carbon budgeting, and what the Turgury has not done is 517 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 3: confront the implication of its own decisions. I don't think 518 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 3: that anywhere in the world we have a finance ministry 519 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: that thinks that way, and I think it would be 520 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 3: brilliant for the UK to model that. 521 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the Finance ministry is supposed to be 522 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: able to constrain these things. Right, if money was unlimited, 523 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: everybody would have candy and unicorns, but we do act 524 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: as if the carbon budget is unlimited in many places. Now, 525 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: one thing that we should talk about, which is not 526 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: UK related but has had massive impact, is the Climate 527 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: Change Committee after its creation has led to a mushrooming 528 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: of other climate change committee type bodies around the world. 529 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: Talk us through some of the examples of where these are, 530 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: what kind of impact they've had, and how you have 531 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: worked with many of them, advising them on what your 532 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: best practices have been and how that's help shape net 533 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: zero or climate policy in other places. 534 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something when I took this job I 535 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: didn't think I would be working on, and it's ended 536 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: up being one of the most rewarding aspects of my job. 537 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 3: So you're right in a sense, the UK is the 538 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 3: sort of granddaddy of how you can approach climate change domestically. 539 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: So we were the first of the major economies to 540 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 3: have climate legislation. It's probably still, i think, the most 541 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 3: complete piece of climate legislation that you will find. It's 542 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: quite remarkable actually that economy the size of the UK 543 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 3: has it in place, especially given our politics, but it's there. 544 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 3: And one of the aspects of that climate change legislation 545 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: is that there's a climate change Committee. So there's huge 546 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 3: interest in that in other parts of the world. I'll 547 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 3: give you a few takes on this. I've been involved 548 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 3: in lots of things. So if you go to New Zealand, 549 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 3: you have essentially almost an exact template of the UK 550 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: Climate Change Act that has been developed with strong reference 551 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 3: to the UK, and we helped establish the Climate Change 552 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 3: Committee that there. 553 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: Is in New Zealand. 554 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 3: So that's one way in which we can have that 555 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 3: kind of influence and it's really rewarding and valuable to 556 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 3: see that. But we do more than that. So you 557 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 3: can look at places even like Germany. For example, Germany, 558 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 3: I remember having a very live discussion in our first 559 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: year in this job what German climate law could be, 560 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: the importance of there being an independent authority, and all 561 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: of that was really the message I was taking out. 562 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 3: You go to Denmark, they've essentially copied the UK Act. 563 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 3: You can go to Korea has a piece of legislation 564 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 3: that looks very similar to the UK's and it has 565 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: a similar climate Advisory Council in place all of that 566 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: good stuff. What's come out of this generally is the 567 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: kind of most interest bit of all in this discussion 568 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: is that there are lots now of Climate Advisory Councils 569 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 3: around the world. We don't have a full number, but 570 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 3: there might be as many as thirty. Now. None of 571 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: them are exactly the same. Many of them are technical 572 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: bodies like us. Some of them are not so independent, 573 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 3: some of them are part of government. Some of them 574 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: look more like think tanks. But they're all doing a 575 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: similar job of bringing some independent view of what the 576 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 3: transition needs to look like. And in particular they're trying 577 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: to transcend often the change in Parliament. You need something 578 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: that looks across for the longer term and the climate transition. 579 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: That's the nature of climate change, and they all do 580 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: that in some shape or form. 581 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: The Climate Change Commantee might not have as sexy a 582 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: name as Tesla, but if the UK does have a 583 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: national champion, I feel like the CCC is one in 584 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: the transition. Now you're going on to a new job. 585 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: You're going to be the CEO of Carbon Trust. Tell 586 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: us about Carbon Trust and why did you choose to 587 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: go there as your next gig. 588 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 3: I do one thing alone, which is just to look 589 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 3: constantly at the transition and ask questions about how it 590 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: can be achieved. And when you do that that very 591 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 3: unique privilege. I definitely have views on how it can 592 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 3: be done. And my frustration is that more and more 593 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 3: of a time you can see that the action now 594 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 3: is in the private sector. And what I want to 595 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 3: do is to shift to an organization where I feel 596 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: I can have more of a role in actually getting 597 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: the private sector to act on this. So the Carbon 598 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 3: Trust is quite an interesting place to go and try 599 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 3: and do that. 600 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: Karben Trust itself used to be part. 601 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 3: Of the UK public sector and during the austerity years 602 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 3: of government it was pushed out of the public sector 603 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 3: and it now operates outside of the public sector, working 604 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 3: on that transition with corporates, but also doing a set 605 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: of things that are about forcing the pace of change 606 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 3: across various sectors. And it's quite a unique institution because 607 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: it doesn't have any shareholders. 608 00:32:58,600 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 2: It's not a charity. 609 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 3: It's a company limited by guarantees, so all the money 610 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 3: he generates goes back into the mission to address climate 611 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 3: change and that is very exciting for me. 612 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 2: I think we can do something cool with that. 613 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 3: And the other part of it that's cool is that 614 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 3: it's global based in the UK, but it's got offices 615 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: right around the world. And that story that we've just 616 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 3: told actually of the relative immaturity of the institutional frameworks 617 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 3: and how we address this in other parts of the world. 618 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 3: I definitely think the Carbon Trust can help with some 619 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 3: of that too. So there's just a set of issues 620 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: here is a sort of soup of issues where I 621 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 3: feel that I can go to the Carbon Trust and 622 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 3: try and make more of an impact there, and I'm 623 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 3: excited about it. So I'm going to take all this 624 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 3: stuff that I've learned from the CCC and try and 625 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 3: apply it actively at the edge of government, but definitely 626 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 3: focused on that private sector transition. 627 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: I look forward to having you back on the show 628 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: to tell us about what you've achieved at the CAB 629 00:33:51,160 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: and Trust. Thank you, Chris, Thanks Cecha, Thank you for 630 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, please take 631 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: a moment to rate or review the show on Apple 632 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: Podcasts and Spotify, Share this episode with a friend or 633 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: with someone obsessed with budgets. You can get in touch 634 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: at zero pod at Bloomberg. Dot net zero's producers are 635 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: Mighty le Rao, Magnus Henriksen and Somarsadi. Our theme music 636 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Kira Bindrim and 637 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: Jessica nicks I am Akshatrati back So