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Speaker 1: Labrega is back this season.

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Speaker 2: We're spending time with the people and symbols that represent

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Speaker 2: Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 1: We're proud Borricos and what does that mean? And we

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Speaker 1: are still in the fight.

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Speaker 2: We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for,

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Speaker 2: stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from. Wow,

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Speaker 2: this is La Brega Campa. Listen early and ad free

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Speaker 2: with fubuo plus.

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Speaker 3: By now, we've all seen the social media posts from

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Speaker 3: the Trump administration and the federal agencies responsible for the

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Speaker 3: country's immigration enforcement.

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Speaker 4: These ICE agents and CVP officers that are out on

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Speaker 4: our streets doing God's work.

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Speaker 3: Videos of raids produced like action films.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to see something cool like video game ads.

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Speaker 5: No, I'm gonna do it anyway.

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Speaker 3: The mudshots of immigrants, most of them brown, with captions

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Speaker 3: that say criminal and alien. The official press releases saying

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Speaker 3: DHS is detaining quote the worst of the worst and

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Speaker 3: the mocking need.

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Speaker 6: Yours call de ice, you willed to sacrifice?

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Speaker 3: But what about the people making those posts and running

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Speaker 3: the strategy behind it all? From Futuro Media, It's Latin Usa.

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Speaker 3: I'm Maria in Josa Today. The battle happening on social media, TV,

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Speaker 3: and radio. The people waging that fight call it an

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Speaker 3: information war. And we know that because reporters at the

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Speaker 3: Washington Post got access to thousands of chats and internal

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Speaker 3: communications from the federal employees running public relations for the

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Speaker 3: Department of Homeland Security. One of those reporters is here

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Speaker 3: to give us a rare glimpse behind the curtain at

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Speaker 3: the PR machine, and what he found was a multi

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Speaker 3: million dollar push to recruit agents who might be less

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Speaker 3: concerned with the law and more enticed by the prospect

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Speaker 3: of rounding up human beings and making themselves look tough

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Speaker 3: on social media.

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Speaker 7: Cowboys who will be cavalier, go up on the street,

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Speaker 7: want to smash into people.

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Speaker 3: And what he witnessed was a giant, taxpayer funded media

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Speaker 3: machine run by people whose main goal is to go viral.

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Speaker 7: If they can flood the airwaves with content that shows

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Speaker 7: the agents being the heroes protecting America, getting these bad

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Speaker 7: guys out of this country, then they're going to win.

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Speaker 3: Let's jump into our conversation. Drew Harwell, welcome to let

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Speaker 3: the New USA.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: You and your colleagues at the Washington Post, you were

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Speaker 3: able to obtain and review thousands of internal messages in ICE,

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Speaker 3: and you got a look into the inner workings of

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Speaker 3: this agency that is now being talked about not just

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Speaker 3: in the United States but literally around the world. So

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Speaker 3: before we get into the content, how did you get

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Speaker 3: the documents?

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Speaker 7: So you know, we have multiple reporters inside the posts

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Speaker 7: who have been working their sources, filing foyas, looking for

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Speaker 7: public documents wherever we can. Part of this reporting came

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Speaker 7: from our attempts to reach former officials at ICE, but

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Speaker 7: also current officials, and through that process we were able

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Speaker 7: to meet some of both. We met current ICE officials,

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Speaker 7: people inside DHS and ICE themselves who were really disturbed

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Speaker 7: by what they had been asked to do. Were hoping

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Speaker 7: that the public could learn more about how the agency

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Speaker 7: had changed from even when they started working there. And

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Speaker 7: we're willing to be open and honest with us and

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Speaker 7: share information with us about specific What we were interested

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Speaker 7: in was this growing kind of infrastructure that ICE had

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Speaker 7: created to make memes and mocking videos of the operations

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Speaker 7: they were doing in the real world.

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Speaker 3: So when you first started reviewing the documents, what was

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Speaker 3: the thing that you just said, Oh my god, I

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Speaker 3: can't believe this.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, what joked out to us as we were going

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Speaker 7: through them was one the banality of it almost you know,

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Speaker 7: this was basically the public Affairs unit of ICE, Right,

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Speaker 7: there's a whole you know, there's a lot of different

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Speaker 7: components of the Department of Homeland Security, and even inside ICE,

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Speaker 7: there are different teams that have different responsibilities. And this

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Speaker 7: is the team that has traditionally worked with reporters fielded

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Speaker 7: public records request and lately they have become a really

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Speaker 7: active participant in this broader information war that has been

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Speaker 7: defending the Trump administration's agenda and putting out messaging around immigration.

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Speaker 7: And so this team was, you know, they were not

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Speaker 7: subtle about how they wanted to frame these kinds of operations.

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Speaker 6: In too many cities, dangerous illegals walk free as police

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Speaker 6: are forced to stand down.

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Speaker 1: ICES refocused on its mission and making America safer and the

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Speaker 1: worst of the worst are being sent back.

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Speaker 7: They were saying, this was basically a battle of good

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Speaker 7: versus evil, where the agents were finding these as they

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Speaker 7: call them, the worst of the worst, right and grabbing

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Speaker 7: these people out of their cars and workplaces, and with

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Speaker 7: the intention of putting them on a plane and sending

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Speaker 7: them to a different country. These were operations that were

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Speaker 7: obviously extremely disruptive. You know, these would be raids, okay

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Speaker 7: down targeted and untargeted operations, traffic stops, the detention of

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Speaker 7: young and old people across this country. So we just.

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Speaker 1: Watched a raid at Walmart. Amazing, excepturn Nome was here.

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Speaker 1: They rolled up a couple of guys and it's.

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Speaker 7: Rowdy people being stopped on the side of the road

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Speaker 7: because they looked brown basically, and that's obviously something that

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Speaker 7: has horrified a lot of people in this country. And

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Speaker 7: yet those operations were being discussed in a way that

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Speaker 7: was almost humorous, and there was a lot of mockery

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Speaker 7: that would be happening in these conversations, and the chatter

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Speaker 7: in the internal messages was there was a sense of

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Speaker 7: glee there. So that was kind of shocking to me.

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Speaker 3: We have examples of these written messages and we'll read

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Speaker 3: them for you.

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Speaker 1: Arrests are wonderful.

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Speaker 8: Two point one million views and nearly seven thousand shares

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Speaker 8: in thirteen hours.

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Speaker 1: Awesome work. White House just ran with it.

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Speaker 7: ICE is a component of DHS, which just started after

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Speaker 7: nine to eleven. It's been around twenty years. It has

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Speaker 7: always traditionally been a law enforcement organization. DHS has FEMA

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Speaker 7: and TSA and all of these things that cover different

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Speaker 7: threats around the country. So even the people who worked

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Speaker 7: in immigration in Ice, they they never saw this as

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Speaker 7: something to kind of giggle and laugh about. This is

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Speaker 7: always something they took really seriously. And yet in this

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Speaker 7: new administration there's been a rush of new political appointees

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Speaker 7: who are very hardcore MAGA, very aggressive in terms of

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Speaker 7: what they think should be happening with immigrants in this country.

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Speaker 7: You know, the goal of the biggest mass deportation in

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Speaker 7: American history, and so to them, every operation was something

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Speaker 7: to be really excited about and be really happy about.

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Speaker 7: And that's something that has obviously been carried over into

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Speaker 7: the social media post that we've all been able to

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Speaker 7: see out in public. These are action movies and memes

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Speaker 7: and satirical posts. Are you an illegal alien in the

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Speaker 7: United States?

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Speaker 5: Are you looking for the perfect holiday gift for your family?

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Speaker 1: Join the two million i llegal aliens who have already.

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Speaker 3: Left John of the CBB Home app took day and

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Speaker 3: get home for the holidays.

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Speaker 7: They're really trying to make it all, you know, one

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Speaker 7: big joke when we know that the reality of it

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Speaker 7: is so much more serious.

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Speaker 3: What you also found, which is kind of known, right,

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Speaker 3: that the Department of Homeland Security and ICE essentially had

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Speaker 3: a plan to flood the airways, flood the zone as

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Speaker 3: it were.

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Speaker 1: We've heard about this. What exactly does that mean?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so their goal was pure quantity. They wanted to

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Speaker 7: pump out a lot of content onto social media. And

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Speaker 7: this is something I had seen and reported on even

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Speaker 7: in the early months of Trump two point zero in

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Speaker 7: the second Trump term, where the White House was really

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Speaker 7: aggressive and putting out messaging on social media.

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Speaker 3: Once again, here are written examples that we will read

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 8: We need to be highlighting the worst of the worst

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Speaker 8: laars across relevant accounts and channels. I'll be getting a

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Speaker 8: lot of content from federal partners today.

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Speaker 1: We made several doesn't arrests today very quickly. Not sure

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Speaker 1: if these had all criminal histories beyond being in the

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Speaker 1: US illegally.

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Speaker 7: I'd like to try to put this out with focusing

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Speaker 7: on the aliens or their crimes, but to demonstrate that

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Speaker 7: we're out working hard.

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Speaker 8: Should we feed info to an influencer?

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Speaker 1: Do we have enough to post every thirty minutes until midnight.

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Speaker 7: They see this as an information war, and so their

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Speaker 7: goal is to pump out as much as they can

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Speaker 7: because they feel like if they can flood x in

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Speaker 7: YouTube and Instagram, flood the airwaves with content that shows

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Speaker 7: the agents being the heroes protecting America, getting these bad

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Speaker 7: guys out of this country, then they're going to win.

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Speaker 3: Right, So there is a question of what happens to

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Speaker 3: accuracy to the semblance of due process if the only

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Speaker 3: thing that's moving you is this notion of control, the narrative.

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Speaker 7: As some people have called it. To us, it's propaganda, right,

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Speaker 7: This is messaging where that is one hundred percent laudatory

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Speaker 7: of what the government is doing that frames real world

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Speaker 7: actions in the most glowing positive way they can. And

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Speaker 7: so that that was really interesting to me because public

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Speaker 7: messaging from the government US is a taxpayer funded messaging

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Speaker 7: and their goal is just to be as savvy about

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Speaker 7: social media as possible. I mean, seeing inside this operation,

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Speaker 7: it really drove home how they're treating this really seriously.

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Speaker 7: They're almost adopting the language and the patterns of a

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Speaker 7: really successful influencer or a media organization. By establishing this

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Speaker 7: infrastructure of videographers, producers, editors, social media managers who could

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Speaker 7: really create this sustainable workflow of content so they can

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Speaker 7: hopefully win public approval.

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Speaker 3: So is this different from other administrations? I mean each

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Speaker 3: one has got a communications, a pr arm. We know

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Speaker 3: this what stands out in terms of what you're seeing

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Speaker 3: now with this administration?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, the aggression, the jingoism, and what's different here is

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Speaker 7: how much they've leaned into this almost four chan far

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Speaker 7: right frame style of behavior online. You can see it

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Speaker 7: on certainly on x which is formerly Twitter, where it's

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Speaker 7: a lot of really fringe memes that are just cruel

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Speaker 7: a lot of times, I mean, really making memes of

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Speaker 7: mass deportation and that kind of content. It's not on accident, right,

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Speaker 7: that's being encouraged and enabled by all the way up

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Speaker 7: to the president. So that's what's really jumped out to me.

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Speaker 7: You never really saw that in past administrations.

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Speaker 3: Coming up. Does it even matter whether people love or

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Speaker 3: hate the content that's coming out of the administration, it's.

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Speaker 7: The classic rage bait style of social media marketing. The

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Speaker 7: people who will agree with us will share it, but

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Speaker 7: also the people who hate our guts, they are going

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Speaker 7: to share it because they're so upset.

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Speaker 1: That's after the break. Stay with us, not the ways.

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Speaker 5: Hey, y'all, Sam Sanders. Here it's finally Awards season, but

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Speaker 5: year round we celebrate the best in film, TV and

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Speaker 5: pop culture and share the real stories behind all of it,

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Speaker 5: like the legendary costume designer Ruth E. Carter who helped

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Speaker 5: bring Sinners to life, or the wonderful actor and newly

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Speaker 5: crowned Emmy winner Jeff Hiller, plus the songwriter behind K

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Speaker 5: pop demon Hunters, Mark Sonnenblick. Catch up on your Awards

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Speaker 5: season faves every week on The Sam Sanders Show. Listen

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Speaker 5: in the CACRW app wherever you get your podcast and

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Speaker 5: on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: It's Latino, USA. I'm Mariano Hosam.

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Speaker 3: We're speaking with Drew Harwell, who at the time of

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Speaker 3: our interview was the Washington Post technology reporter and sadly

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Speaker 3: days later, Drew was one of about three hundred people

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Speaker 3: let go during the Washington Post's layoffs. Before that happened,

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Speaker 3: he got access to thousands of internal messages from the

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Speaker 3: people running media operations for DHS and ICE, and Drew

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Speaker 3: says he was surprised by just how enthusiastic some of

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Speaker 3: these public employees were about making and sharing content that

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Speaker 3: could often be cruel and sometimes patently false. Let's jump

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Speaker 3: back into our conversation, Drew, can you give us one

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Speaker 3: or two examples of things that you found particularly egregious.

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Speaker 7: Well, in terms of accuracy, I mean, we did a

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Speaker 7: whole story on some of these Department of Homeland Security

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Speaker 7: ICE videos that would be framed as breakdowns of the

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Speaker 7: news and would try to talk about all of the

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Speaker 7: things that the Trump administration was doing to protect the country,

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Speaker 7: all of their successes that they were winning in immigration operations.

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Speaker 7: A lot of the video from those clips that they

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Speaker 7: would put out there was wrong. We were able to

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Speaker 7: find that they came from operations that had been months

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Speaker 7: before they were saying they had happened, came from thousands

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Speaker 7: of miles away, different places. So the operation was misleading

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Speaker 7: people accidentally or on purpose about the success or the

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Speaker 7: goals of their operation. That really stuck out to me,

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Speaker 7: because obviously the public deserves trustworthy information from the government.

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Speaker 3: So one of the things that I heard, I was

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Speaker 3: in a cab in New York early morning and suddenly

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Speaker 3: I hear a commercial.

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Speaker 1: It was actually Christinomes.

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Speaker 6: President Trump has a clear message for those that are

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Speaker 6: in our country illegally leave now. If you don't, we

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Speaker 6: will find you and we will deport you.

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Speaker 1: You will never return.

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Speaker 3: I'm wondering about this notion of having Christineomes out there

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Speaker 3: in a very antagonist voice basically saying you must leave,

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Speaker 3: and it is part of the public relations program of

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Speaker 3: the Department of Homeland Security.

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Speaker 7: They have really leaned into this wartime style of speech,

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Speaker 7: and there are multiple advertising campaigns being run out of

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Speaker 7: the Department of Homeland Security right now. That is one

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Speaker 7: of the big ones. Yeah, the quote unquote self deportation.

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Speaker 7: They've gotten hundreds of millions of dollars of more money

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Speaker 7: through this one big beautiful bill Act that was passed

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Speaker 7: through Congress, and a lot of that money they have

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Speaker 7: poured into public facing material. I think it's not a

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Speaker 7: coincidence that Secretary Gnome is in these. She wants the

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Speaker 7: FaceTime for these. These are good for her, you know,

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Speaker 7: making her a household name. But you're right, the content

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Speaker 7: is very, very abrasive, and one of the problems is

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Speaker 7: they've been targeting these ads to who they feel like

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Speaker 7: are Hispanic people inside this country, and they've targeted them

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Speaker 7: on you can see on Facebook where they've targeted to

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Speaker 7: people who like Latin music, or like Latin food, or

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Speaker 7: using all of these proxy attributes that they think will

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Speaker 7: get them to the Latino population in the US. But

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Speaker 7: there's a lot of people, of course who like those

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Speaker 7: things and are in this country legally, our citizens are

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Speaker 7: born here, and they're seeing this stuff and they're really

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Speaker 7: turned off by the implication and just the reminder of

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Speaker 7: what ICE is doing. And so ICE and DHS are

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Speaker 7: spending a lot of money in this way. We don't

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Speaker 7: know how successful it's been. They feel like it's successful,

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Speaker 7: but it's really a reminder of what's happening. You're seeing

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Speaker 7: that now for anybody who's turning on Spotify or Facebook.

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Speaker 7: It's really kind of wild how widespread it's become.

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Speaker 3: Right, and now the White House is spanning to spend

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Speaker 3: about one hundred million dollars over the course of this

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Speaker 3: year in order to recruit new ICE agents. So how

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Speaker 3: does the whole kind of pr project, how does it

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Speaker 3: feed into now recruitment in order to build up ICE.

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Speaker 7: So it all feeds into this one narrative of again,

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Speaker 7: in their words, good versus evil. They want to position

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Speaker 7: and you can see this in their marketing. They want

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Speaker 7: to position the agents as these warriors for the American homeland.

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Speaker 7: Then they use the phrases like we want you to

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Speaker 7: defend the homeland against against the hordes right at the gates.

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Speaker 7: They talk about it as destroyed the flood, and so

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Speaker 7: the recruitment part of it really leans into that too.

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Speaker 6: The administration has rolled out a campaign across departments the

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Speaker 6: draws on images and ideas borrowed from right wing and

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Speaker 6: white nationalist circles.

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Speaker 4: A nice recruitment ad featuring the Turner phrase We'll have

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Speaker 4: our Home Again. That's a reference to the song We'll

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Speaker 4: Have Our Home Again, a white supremacist anthem favored by

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Speaker 4: the Prown Boys.

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Speaker 7: Another post, this one from October, has the tagline America

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Speaker 7: for Americans, a xenophobic slogan used repeatedly by the klu

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Speaker 7: Klux Klan. Of course, you know, the question is who

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Speaker 7: are they really trying to attract. Are they trying to

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Speaker 7: get trained law enforcement officers who can follow the rule

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Speaker 7: of law in a way to de escalate the situation

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Speaker 7: and inflict the minimum harm. Or are they trying to

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Speaker 7: get cowboys who will be cavalier go out on the

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Speaker 7: street want to smash into people, and the marketing is

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Speaker 7: really following this fable they're creating where they're trying to

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Speaker 7: position the officers as the real warriors for the American

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Speaker 7: way of life.

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Speaker 3: Is there anything that you can tell us in terms

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Speaker 3: of how people are feeling about this.

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Speaker 7: That's I think the most interesting part of this. You know,

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Speaker 7: this operation has been successful for them if the goal

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Speaker 7: is just to get attention, right. We see these videos

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Speaker 7: get a lot of views, and a lot of these

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Speaker 7: views come from people who disagree with the videos. And

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Speaker 7: I would talk to them and say, why put out

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Speaker 7: this kind of content with this kind of language where

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Speaker 7: you're being very just crass and aggressive. They would define

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Speaker 7: it as basically a smash mouth operation. They just wanted

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Speaker 7: to run straight into people, whether it made them mad

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Speaker 7: or not. And the goal that they have said was

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Speaker 7: we want to upset the other side. We want to

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Speaker 7: aggravate people, because those people will be aggravated and then

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Speaker 7: they'll share our content. It's the classic rage bait style

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Speaker 7: of social media marketing. The people who will agree with

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Speaker 7: us will share it, but also the people who hate

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Speaker 7: our guts and don't like what they're seeing are going

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Speaker 7: to share it because they're so upset, So I think

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Speaker 7: they get a lot of views. But I think the

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Speaker 7: bigger question is is any of this effective or could

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Speaker 7: it be actually backfiring for them. We've seen over the

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Speaker 7: last year, as his social media operation has picked up,

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Speaker 7: and poll after poll that the American public actually does

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Speaker 7: not like Trump's immigration agenda. Support for him has really

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Speaker 7: crumbled throughout the year, and it's actually at one of

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Speaker 7: the lowest points now that it's ever been.

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Speaker 6: A growing number of Americans think ICE agents are being

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Speaker 6: too tough when they detain people now six ten believe that,

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Speaker 6: up from fifty three percent in November.

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Speaker 1: A wide margin here of disapproval for the job that

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Speaker 1: ICE is doing, thirty six approved, sixty three disapproved.

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Speaker 7: You know, more people have said they want to abolish

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Speaker 7: ICE than support it continued running. They think what they're

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Speaker 7: doing is making American cities less safe. They think they're unjustified,

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Speaker 7: and how they've been treating protesters. We've obviously seen the

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Speaker 7: fatal incidents with Renee Good and Alex Pretty and it's

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Speaker 7: hard to know whether the social media is contributing to

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Speaker 7: that negative slide or if you can't really disentangle them

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Speaker 7: but I think the reality is their goal of the

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Speaker 7: social media has not played out. They have not been

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Speaker 7: able to convince a big part of the American public

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Speaker 7: to support them. If anything, that it's gone the other way,

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Speaker 7: we'll be right back the way.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we're going to wrap up our conversation with reporter

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Speaker 3: Drew Harwell, what has the Department of Homeland Security said

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Speaker 3: about your reporting on their media tactics?

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Speaker 7: So when we have reported on this stuff, they feel like,

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Speaker 7: again they've talked about they have a mandate from voters,

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Speaker 7: They feel like voters want this stuff. They feel like

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Speaker 7: they're going to use all of the tools at their

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Speaker 7: disposal to get the message out. They say, our social

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Speaker 7: media is successful. But the truth is, these are documents

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Speaker 7: that really lay out how ICE has acted. We've talked

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Speaker 7: to people both inside ICE, you know, I've talked to

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Speaker 7: former ICE directors who are really they have a lot

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Speaker 7: of concern about how this agency has changed, you know,

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Speaker 7: not because they are bleeding heart anything, but because they

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Speaker 7: want the agency to be functioning in the most stable,

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Speaker 7: correct way possible. And so this style of aggression really

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Speaker 7: gives them concern that more people are going to get

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Speaker 7: hurt than are necessary.

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Speaker 3: And I think that they're also worried about the future

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Speaker 3: of the organization. In fact, if it's backfiring and you

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Speaker 3: have more people who probably a year ago would have

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Speaker 3: said they have no opinion on the issue of abolish ICE,

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Speaker 3: and now because of all of this, it's actually making

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Speaker 3: people want to abolish ICE even more.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that's right. I actually just did some reporting on

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Speaker 7: the apolitical spaces on the Internet that have really surged

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Speaker 7: into talking politics in a big way.

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Speaker 3: Where's the a political Pods, where the Cooking Channel.

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Speaker 7: It is funny because these are spaces. You know, there's

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Speaker 7: a lot of places online are politically arguing about everything,

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Speaker 7: but these were spaces that saw this as like these

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Speaker 7: were our escapist platform. These were places where we could

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Speaker 7: talk about cats and sewing and sports. Even the creators

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Speaker 7: in those communities are moving to a function where they're

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Speaker 7: they're really unnerved by what they see. They see the

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Speaker 7: videos of alex pretty, they see the videos of deportations,

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Speaker 7: and they feel like they can't sit silently anymore. And

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Speaker 7: so that is a function of how the administration has

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Speaker 7: started talking and acting and they're really stirring up a

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Speaker 7: kind of rebellion among people who may have just sat

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Speaker 7: on their hands last year, and so I think that

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Speaker 7: raises the question of is this backfiring for them? Is

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Speaker 7: it are they really accomplishing their goal or are they

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Speaker 7: just turning more people against them.

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Speaker 1: So I'm of a generation where you.

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Speaker 3: AI altered things do not immediately stand out for me.

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Speaker 3: Although my children, adult children in their twenties and thirties,

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Speaker 3: they spot AI pretty quickly. On January twenty second, the

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Speaker 3: White House actually posted a picture of the attorney and

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Speaker 3: activist Nikimah Levy Armstrong. She had been arrested following a

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Speaker 3: protesting a church in Minneapolis.

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Speaker 6: Shortly after her arrest, the Department of Homeland Security posted

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Speaker 6: a photo of her at the arrest.

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Speaker 1: This is that photo.

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Speaker 6: You can see she's composed. But a short time later,

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Speaker 6: the White House posted something very different. They altered a

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Speaker 6: picture of nikim Oh Levy Armstrong showing her crying.

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Speaker 2: The White House isn't even denying it. Deputy Communications director

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Speaker 2: Callan Door responded to the backlash, stating, the memes continue.

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Speaker 3: How does a journalist deal with an administration that essentially

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Speaker 3: is shamelessly lying to the American public.

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Speaker 7: That's the question, right, Yeah, you know, the government wants

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Speaker 7: people to trust them. They put out a lot of

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Speaker 7: material that no one else can get, right. We saw

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Speaker 7: what happened in Venezuela, the boat strikes in the Caribbean.

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Speaker 7: They're putting out material and asking the public to trust

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Speaker 7: them and them alone, that they are the authority in this.

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Speaker 7: So that was pretty surprising to me too. I mean,

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Speaker 7: we have all seen the White House really lean into

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Speaker 7: these memes. They've used AI for little jokes before. Obviously,

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Speaker 7: last year there was a video of President Trump and

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Speaker 7: a fighter jet dumping feces on protesters. It was AI generated.

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Speaker 7: It was a big mockery, but we all knew it

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Speaker 7: was fake. This image was I think more insidious because

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Speaker 7: it didn't look fake to the first look of it,

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Speaker 7: and it was so subtly manipulated that most people would

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Speaker 7: have just walked right by. And I'm not seeing that

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Speaker 7: that was a fiction that the White House had shared.

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Speaker 7: And so I think again, this undermines them because it

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Speaker 7: undermines public trust in them. Why should we believe them

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Speaker 7: next time when they will, you know, lie to the

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Speaker 7: public by sharing this kind of distorted imagery and by

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Speaker 7: doing it without any sense of disclosure. Right, They're not

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Speaker 7: flagging anything AI generated. They're just letting people believe the lie,

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Speaker 7: if that's what's happening. So that was pretty shocking to

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Speaker 7: me too.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that is a whole other step, Drew. It's

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Speaker 3: one thing to realize that you have a White House

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Speaker 3: that is lying. There's a different situation when now they

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Speaker 3: are actively altering images.

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Speaker 7: You know, there's a concept the Overton window, right, it's

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Speaker 7: the window of things that we find acceptable. And once

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Speaker 7: you really pull that open, as we've seen with it

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Speaker 7: it's administration and not just this but in other ways too,

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Speaker 7: it's really hard to push that back. And even if

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Speaker 7: you support this happening now because you're on that ideological side,

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Speaker 7: are you going to support it when it's the other side.

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Speaker 7: Are you going to think that that's something you want

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Speaker 7: every government to do from here on out. I don't

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Speaker 7: think that's the case, right, And you know we've seen

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Speaker 7: that from people inside this administration who are just furious

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Speaker 7: that this is happening because they don't want to work

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Speaker 7: with a team of people who thinks that's okay. They

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Speaker 7: don't want to depend on lies to get their message

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Speaker 7: across our democracy functions, you know, not to get to

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Speaker 7: hyphul lutin, but off us agreeing on a shared reality

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Speaker 7: when we can talk about the same facts. Obviously, we're

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Speaker 7: not in the utopia that people disagree all the time.

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Speaker 7: But to have a government agency put out material that

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Speaker 7: is knowingly altered in a way to again undermine a

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Speaker 7: citizen of the country because they disagree with her, it

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Speaker 7: just raises the question why should we trust them the

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Speaker 7: next time? And who are they going to target next?

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Speaker 7: Who are they going to subtly manipulate in a way

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Speaker 7: none of us really know.

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Speaker 3: Drew Harwell, thank you so much for joining me on

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Speaker 3: Latino USA, and thank you for your reporting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: A few days after this interview, the Washington Post laid

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Speaker 3: off three hundred members of its staff. Drew Harwell was

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Speaker 3: among them, along with about a third of the newsroom.

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Speaker 3: The Post, which is owned by tech billionaire Jeff Bezos,

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Speaker 3: said the layoffs were for financial reasons, but the layoffs

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Speaker 3: have also created a firestorm for The Washington Post. This

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Speaker 3: episode was produced by Recca Barra. It was edited byer

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00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 3: managing editor Fernando Echavari, who was mixed by Julia Caruso.

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Speaker 3: Fact Checking for this episode by Roxanna Aguire. Nancy Trujillo

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00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 3: is our production manager. The Latino USA team also includes

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Speaker 3: junior Stephane Lebau, Luis Luna Johonni Marr Marquez, Hurrieta Martinelli,

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00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 3: Monica Morales, Garcia Palo Martrez, JJ Krubin and Adriana Rodriguez.

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Speaker 3: Pennileramirez and I are executive producers.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host Maria ino Josa.

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00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: Remember Latino USA is part of Iheart's Michael Duda podcast Network.

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00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 3: Executive producers at iHeart are Leo Gomez and Arlene Santana.

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Speaker 3: Join us again on our next episode. In the meantime,

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Speaker 3: you can find us on social media. I'll see you

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00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 3: on Instagram. And don't forget, dear listener, to join Futuro Plus.

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Speaker 3: Join now Futuro Plus a star approximates.

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Speaker 8: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising

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Speaker 8: Simons Foundation Unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities. More at hsfoundation

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Speaker 8: dot org, the John and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, and

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Speaker 8: Skyline Foundation,