1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: Body doctors with Joseph Scott more years ago, I was 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: on a task force that set up the national standards 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: for medical legal death investigations and it was a real 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: honor to be a part of that task force. But 5 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: as part of this we had to become proctors. And 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: not only did we develop the curriculum, but back then 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: you had to have proctery or test sites where you 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: would go and learn how to administer the test. And 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: this was all funded by the FEDS. During that period 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: of time, I had the privilege of going to the 11 00:00:53,400 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: State and Medical Examiner's office in Maryland, and there I 12 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: got to see the inner workings of an office that 13 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: has been in existence for many, many years, that has 14 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: quite the story history. As a matter of fact, it 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: was probably one of the first medical examiner, true medical 16 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: examiner systems in the nation. But they've seen a thing 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 1: or two over the years. But I got to tell you, 18 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: working at the Medical Examiner, particularly in a place is 19 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: busy as Maryland is, you never know what's going to 20 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: roll through the door, even if that body comes in 21 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: in multiple pieces. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags, Hey, Dave, 22 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: This case that has been in the news this past 23 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: it hadn't even really entered onto my radar, and I 24 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: was kind of shocked by it because it's so over 25 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: the top relative to the forensic evidence and relative Well, 26 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: let's just start at the beginning. 27 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 2: Starting from the top. Here, it is Micheline A Goodwin 28 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: and James Nebord Check our boyfriend and girlfriend. They're in 29 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: a relationship and they're living together. A friend named Larry 30 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: Murphy is at their house when Michelina and James get 31 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: into a fight. An argument ended upstairs bedroom. Larry Murphy 32 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: tries to inner seed. They said, get out of here, 33 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 2: go downstairs, leave us alone. The argument continues, and then 34 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: while he's downstairs, Larry Murphy, here's a gunshot. What happens 35 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 2: next is why we're talking about this story. Micheline A 36 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: Goodwin comes down the stairs. I just shot James. Now, 37 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: Larry Murphy, you've really got three choices. One, pick up 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: the phone and call nine to one one get help now. 39 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: Two call nine one one, tell the police. This woman 40 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: just killed her boyfriend. That's two and number three. Let 41 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: me grab my car keys, load him and let's go. 42 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 2: We're taking him to the hospital. We'll deal with the 43 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 2: consequences later. None of those choices seem good to Micheline, 44 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: A good one. Here's what she wants Larry Murphy to do. 45 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: I need you, Larry, to help me cut up his body, 46 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: put it in bags, and let's go and get rid 47 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: of it in a couple of different counties in Maryland, 48 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: rural areas that nobody will ever find his body. And 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: that's what they do. They don't call for help, nothing 50 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: they do. It boggles my mind. And then the family 51 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: of James Aboard Chick, it's coming up on Christmas is 52 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: December twenty first, and the family realizes nobody has spoken 53 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: to or seen James in a while, and they're comparing 54 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: notes and realize, hey, last time we need to talk 55 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: to him was December seventh. Nobody knows where he is 56 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: and it's December twenty first. Still, let's go to the police. 57 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: We haven't seen him in two weeks, we don't know 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: where he is. Help us find James aboard Chick. And 59 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: that's where the missing person's case begins. Now where do 60 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: you think police are going to go? First? Yeah, right 61 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: back to Michelin, A good one's house, because that's where 62 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: James was living with her now, Joe, I don't know 63 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: what's in the water. I don't know why. We've had 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: so many stories about people getting dismembered, but it seems 65 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 2: like a thing now. 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's just our perception, but this idea 67 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: of you know, scattering the remains, it actually reminds me 68 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: of a case. I think it was from back in thousand, 69 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and there was actually a young 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: mother who was divorced. If I'm not mistaken, she was 71 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: a nurse and she had met a guy online and 72 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: while they were she's going out with a date with 73 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: this guy and he was like a homeless guy. I 74 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: remember her name was Ingrid Lynn. I don't know if 75 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: you remember that case. We covered it extensively. We you 76 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: know it was I was on with Nancy and then 77 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: back in the hl N days and all that. But 78 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: that individual actually took her out on a date. And 79 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: believe it or not, I know you're you're a big 80 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: baseball person. Took her to a Mariner's game. That was 81 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: their first name. 82 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 2: Wow. 83 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Actually, Kim and I are first date was 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: a Braves game. So you know you're thinking, wow, okay, 85 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: you're going to take her out to a ballgame, and 86 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: then he takes her back to her home and kills 87 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: her in her home and then uses uses a limb 88 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: saw to dismember her in her bathtub. And what it 89 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: has in common with this is that he deposited her 90 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: remains in various locations around the city. I'll never forget 91 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: that the guy that found he went to pull his 92 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: recycling bin now back from the street back to his house, 93 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: and it felt heavy, and he looked down in it 94 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: and there was a bag and there was a human 95 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: footsticking about it. 96 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: And this is in Seattle. They really care. That's ecology. 97 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: You know, they made sure. And he's thinking, hey, who 98 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: put real trash. 99 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: In exactly, And so he's moving this thing around and 100 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: there it is. But you know, you think about this case. 101 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: They didn't just they didn't just deposit her remains in 102 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: Charles County. They actually went into did I say she? 103 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: Yeah you did. But it's okay. Look in the in 104 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: the game we played Joe, anymore, you might even insult 105 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: somebody that's a guy that you say, you know, we 106 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: can't say he or she. We're gonna have to come 107 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: up with they and them and stuff like that to 108 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: cover these I know this. 109 00:06:54,040 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: They deposited Jimmy's remains and not just uh in Charles 110 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: County but also St. Mary's County. Are these far away 111 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: you know a lot about it? No, they literally bump 112 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: up against one another. 113 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: And where's Baltimore? Say, is Baltimore in one of those counties? 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like primarily I think in Charles County, But 115 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, like so many of these metroplex areas like this, 116 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: it expands out so far. You think about Atlanta, you 117 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: think about d C and Baltimore. It's really it used 118 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: to be where there was like this dividing line, and 119 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: even to and I'll probably get called out on this, 120 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: but even up to like Philly, it's almost like you 121 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: kind of bounce from one to another and you never 122 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: really know where you are, you know, other than you 123 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: cross state lines and whatnot, because it's just this continuous flow. 124 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: But if you're familiar with the area and you think about, well, okay, 125 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm not just going to sit here and deposit remains 126 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: in one location. I think that what we ought to 127 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: do is make an initial deposition of remains and then 128 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: we're going to migrate over to an adjacent county and 129 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: deposit more there. I don't know, Davy. If let's try 130 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: to get inside the skin of somebody that's doing this, 131 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: what what do you think as the lay person here, 132 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: what do you think is the rationale for wanting. 133 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: To do that? You know, I thought about this, Joe, 134 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: that you would want to get you and the deceased 135 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: parts as far away as you can, right. You want 136 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 2: them to be hidden because you're going to so many 137 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: these times when we cover cases, people admit what they've 138 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: done as soon as they get caught, they talk to 139 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: the cops and within a matter of minutes, there you know, 140 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: here is the truth, Here's what really happened. Why'd you 141 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: bother doing it? 142 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: Then? 143 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: If you're going to give up the truth so fast, 144 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: why did you bother doing this? You take the person's life, really, 145 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: can't you? Anyway? That's I'm guessing this is this is 146 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: a lot of work too. It is that I know 147 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: that's very morbid, but this is a lot of work, 148 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 2: and I think you're right on the money here. Why 149 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: you know, why would you give up the information? So 150 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: I asked, if you've done it, when you've spread them 151 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: everywhere again, spread across two counties and actually two different 152 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: states are involved here, You're dealing with Maryland and Virginia. 153 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, well yeah, and it's spread out over 154 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: this huge area. Here's another thing too, for every And 155 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by this, the idea, and you 156 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: had mentioned it just a second ago, and you've got 157 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: You've kind of got plus is uh as an upside 158 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: and a downside here. I found that with killers, many 159 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: times they keep remains near them in some instances. And 160 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: I think the reason that keep remains near them it's 161 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: a control issue. They want to know that the body 162 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: is where I put it, I have, you know. And 163 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: that's why I think some people bury bodies in yards 164 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: in their backyard, you know, because it seems counterintuitive, right, 165 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to kill somebody, but yet I'm going to 166 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: hang on to the remains. I'm going to bury them 167 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: in the backyard. I had a case in in South 168 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: Louisiana that I consulted on at one point in time, 169 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: and a guy had killed his wife and had buried 170 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: her in the backyard and had taken had gone to 171 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: Walmart and bought I think like fifteen rose bushes, and 172 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: the neighbors said later on, yeah, one night we heard 173 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: him working in the backyard. We got up the next 174 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: morning and looked over the fence and there's a rose 175 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: garden where one had not been. I mean the roses 176 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: were not blooming. Wow, but you know, the roses were there. 177 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: And it took them years years to decide. Well, first off, 178 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: he had the house. They couldn't get a search warrant 179 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: for it. And when the new people moved in that 180 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: he had sold it. I guess he thought that people 181 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: had forgotten about it. They go out there and they 182 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: dig up the rose garden. Sure enough, there she is. 183 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: And they went in in luminol up that's friends to 184 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: aluminol Oh. Wow, in the basement of this place, and 185 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: there was blood everywhere. He had painted, recarpeted, all this 186 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: sort of stuff down there, and he couldn't They still 187 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: show up, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so they were able 188 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: to determine. They couldn't type it or anything, but they 189 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: knew something horrible it happened. 190 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: But it's okay. Where I always thought, they keep the 191 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: body closer, the body parts, because that way they know 192 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: if anybody finds anything, they be like in Atlanta, where 193 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: we're dealing with Christopher Wolfenberger, you've got him murdering, allegedly 194 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 2: murdering his wife in nineteen ninety nine and cutting her 195 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: all up, and her skull shows up on this in 196 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: an industrial park area. Well if you actually think, and 197 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: then her other body parts show up a couple of 198 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: days later. 199 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's only arms and legs. We still don't 200 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: know what happened to her, torso, but then they go away. 201 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: I got to say this right now, tip of the cap, 202 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: Tip of the cap to my good friend Cheryl McCollum. 203 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, she spent a lot of time on 204 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: this case. 205 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: She sure did. And I recommend to anybody at this 206 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: point in time, if you get a chance, you need 207 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: to go listen to his own seven. It was absolutely amazing, 208 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: great work on Cheryl's part. 209 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: But you know that Wolfenberger case, Joe, he actually Christopher Wolfenberger, 210 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: the husband of Melissa. Yeah, that was a road that 211 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 2: he drove every day to work. He worked right there. 212 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 2: So you've got him basically putting her body in an 213 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: area that he. 214 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: Knows, right, And that's one of the things that's interested 215 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: me about that case in particular, is that he worked 216 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: at a glass shop. Well, what do they use at 217 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: glass shops. People don't think about this. They actually use 218 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: cutting tools and they're very fine cutting tools. And so 219 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: you think about our case today with Jimmy, and you 220 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: think about this idea. Did who had access to tools, 221 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: who had the knowledge in order to actually take him apart? 222 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: And where could you do it? Sequestered like this? But 223 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: back to the idea of the deposition or remains, Dave, Okay, 224 00:12:59,320 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: if you're. 225 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: The opposite of what we were talking about, well. 226 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: I think percentage wise, percentage wise okay, if you're thinking, 227 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: because the only thing I could think of is that 228 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: if you're if you're going out to deposit human remains, 229 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: dismembered human remains, by the way, in various locations like this, 230 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: you're now upping the probability that you're going to get 231 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: caught because you have these things dispersed and so if 232 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: some citizen just comes walking by, you might find one here, 233 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: you might find one there. And I you know, and 234 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: I think, well, maybe the rationale was, well, if we 235 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: put him out all over the place, if we put 236 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: him out all over the place, perhaps they'll think that 237 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: these things are not related in some way, and what 238 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: they don't count on and what many don't count on 239 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: is that in the end, science always tell us the truth. 240 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: Here's the weird thing, Dave. And going back to this 241 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: kind of point of order you brought up a few 242 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: moments ago. If if you go to all the trouble 243 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: to first off kill someone and then go to a 244 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: lot of trouble to dismember them, why are you going 245 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: to roll over on it? And from what you're telling me, 246 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: that's essentially what this woman did. Am I correct? 247 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: I'm so amazed at again the effort, the effort it 248 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: takes to do everything that Michelina Goodwin did, along with 249 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: help from Larry Murphy. Apparently that they did to James 250 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: and bod They a gun accidentally fires and kills the 251 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: man and he's missing. Those are two separate things. One 252 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: we know he's dead, two we know he's missing. So 253 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 2: you got two groups of people, the people who did 254 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: the killing. Well, the person who did the killing, she 255 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: knows he's dead, and the guy that helped her with them, 256 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: he knows he's dead. But you know what, everybody else, 257 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: James is missing. His family thinks he's missing. That where 258 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 2: did he go? Now? First thing, police do, they pull 259 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: backgrounds on everybody they know if you're not just lost stuff, 260 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: not just booking in jail and things. 261 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: They know. 262 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: They talk to friends, they talk to relatives. They know 263 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: if you have a drug problem, they know if you 264 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: have a gambling problem. They know who you are. The 265 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: people that are closest to this case, they know what 266 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: they're dealing with, and they use this information because they 267 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: don't believe what they're being told. Grown people don't just 268 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: go missing and drop off the face of the earth 269 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: for no reason, if it's out of character. There are 270 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: some people who do leave. There are some people who 271 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: do not maintain regular contact with their family, and their 272 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: family doesn't report them missing. 273 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: There have been a few times in my life when 274 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: I have felt about this. It felt like disappearing, but 275 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: not chosen to do that. 276 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: I gotta get away, gotta get away. But in this case, 277 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: the family does have contact with James and Borchik on 278 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: a fairly regular basis, So when they realize they haven't 279 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: talked to him in several days, they've tried to find out. 280 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: So they go to his girlfriend Michelina. Where is he 281 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: don't know, haven't seen him? Have you reported him missing? 282 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: Have you tried to find him? Nah? We were arguing, 283 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: he split up, We were breaking up, any number of things. Okay, 284 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: we were breaking up. Oh wait a minute, I remember 285 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: he took his work truck. See, I told him I 286 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: was going to break up with him. So he took 287 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: his work drug and he drove off to West Virginia 288 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: singing a John Denver song. That's he's over there somewhere working. 289 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: Look for the work truck. You know. That was the story. 290 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: We had an argument, we broke up, he took his 291 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: work drug and left the state. So that's what the 292 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: investigators are left with. They have Micheline, a Goodwin and 293 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: Larry Murphy who were there, and then they have the 294 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: missing man, James, the bor chick. The story they're told 295 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: us he is not believable in reality because you'd be 296 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: able to find him. If that was the case, he 297 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: would be talking to family. If that was the case, 298 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: you guys broke up and he left, the family would 299 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: know they talked to him. So he ain't talking to anybody. 300 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: So the police are going to look at it a 301 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: little bit closer, so they start leaning on him. Now 302 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: we're talking about last time he's seen December seventh, Reported 303 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: missing December twenty first, right, before Christmas. That's a special 304 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: time for every family in one way or another, and 305 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 2: they don't know where he is. So here we are. 306 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: By the time police have had their fill of following 307 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: the false leads and they sit down with Micheline a Goodwin, 308 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: they're gonna hit her hard. They're going to really lean 309 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: because they're not believing her story. Joe, Can they go 310 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: into the house and find out if a gun's been fired? 311 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: Can they go into a house and find out if 312 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: a gun has been fired? I think that you would 313 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: have to be adjacent. Let me put it to you 314 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: this way. Let's say, for instance, and here here's a 315 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: good example, if you were standing adjacent to a let's 316 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: say a set of curtains, for instance, and you had 317 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: an idea that maybe the weapon was discharged there, Maybe 318 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: some circumstantial evidence came up, maybe some kind of spontaneous 319 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: comment came up. Maybe if it's a discharged there and 320 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: it has gotten into the fabric of the curtain, or 321 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: maybe adjacent to a bed where there's a comforter and 322 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: you knew where to look, maybe you could find some remnant. 323 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: But if a weapon is just merely fired, it would 324 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: be really hard to say yeah, well a weapon has 325 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: recently been fired here. 326 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 2: You know, I'm just trying to think of what they 327 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: would be saying to her, because a lot of us 328 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 2: know of DNA. We know that this science of the 329 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: forensic sciences have gotten to the point where you feel 330 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: like if you were in an elevator and somebody, you know, 331 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 2: somebody disturbed the ambiance, you know, you would be able 332 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 2: to figure out who did it by the odor I mean, 333 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 2: you would think these anymore. That's what I kind of 334 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 2: believe when I watch television and movies. It's like they 335 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: can figure everything out. They know I was there. 336 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are there are certain limitations scientifically, you know, 337 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: but over a period of time, you know, and when 338 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: I say period of time, I'm talking about in pretty 339 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: short order. If you're just simply talking about a weapon 340 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: being discharged, it would be very difficult to go back 341 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: and say, yes, a weapon has been discharged in this room. 342 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: You have to have some kind of soot or well 343 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: powdered deposition on the person on clothing, that sort of 344 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: thing to go back and say that, yes, a weapon 345 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: was fired. Now which what weapon was it? And that 346 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: that's key because even you know, you can say that, 347 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. You can say I work 348 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: in a munitions factory or something, and you're still going 349 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: to get some kind of residue on you perhaps, And 350 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: so it's all relative to the circumstances in that immediate moment. 351 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: But I could have sworn that at some point in 352 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: tom this person actually stated that there was an accidental 353 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: discharge of the weapon. 354 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: Is that I took them to January eighteenth. They leaned 355 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: on her, That's what I was saying. I was thinking 356 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: of the things police could tell her. You know, Michelina, 357 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: you know we have ways of finding out a gun 358 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 2: was fired here. You know, we knew all this. They knew. 359 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: They had a really good idea, but they didn't have 360 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: any proof. They didn't have a body, they didn't have 361 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: any evidence, they didn't have anything. Joe, So they bring 362 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: her in, they sweat her, and MICHELINI go went on 363 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: January eighteenth, admits here's what happened. We were having an argument. 364 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: Larry tried to involve himself. We told him to go 365 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 2: back downstairs, get away, and so he knows nothing to 366 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: tell you. And I was threatened, so I grabbed a gun. 367 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna shoot him or anything. I was just 368 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 2: doing it to protect myself and I accidentally the gun 369 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: went off. I mean, it was just such an accident, Joe. 370 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: I didn't mean to do it. I'm really sorry. Really 371 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 2: well where did you shoot him? Did you hit him 372 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: in the face? Did you wing him? Did you you know? Oh, 373 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: I shot him in the back. Okay, you accidentally shot 374 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: him in the back and he died one shot. Did 375 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: you call nine one one if it was an accident? 376 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: Did you pick up the phone and ask for help? 377 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: Did you take him to the hunt? Is an accident? 378 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: It was an accident. Why didn't you do? What did 379 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 2: you do? 380 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: Because why do you take measures? You know, to try 381 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: to say because that goes to what do they call 382 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: it a gross indifference or whatever it is, that callous indifference. 383 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 1: I'm sorry where you just you don't care. You're just 384 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: going to let them, you know, suffer, you know, lying there. 385 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: But love I love it when people say things like, yeah, 386 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: the weapon went off by accident. 387 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: I love that. 388 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: No. And and listen, there are we're talking about forensics 389 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: relative to this. You know, there are a couple of 390 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of tests that we in the lab, not me, 391 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: but my colleagues at work in fireums examination otherwise known 392 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: as ballistics. In those sections of crime labs, they will 393 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: actually do test on weapons, uh, to determine the plausibility 394 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: of any particular weapon accidentally discharging. And do you mind 395 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: if I break these down for you, because I'll tell 396 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: you I think people, I think people will be kind 397 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: of interested in it. Uh. And it's it's kind of 398 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: wild stuff when you because we hear these stories all 399 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: the time, and most of the time you hear them 400 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: associated with suicides because, as I've mentioned on many occasions, 401 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: the suicides outpaced homicides. You know, so you're going to 402 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 1: get more self inflicted gunshot wounds than you will gunshot 403 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: wounds inflicted by another. And people will try and families 404 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 1: many times say, well he accidentally shot himself, right, Okay, 405 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: well how does that happen? Well, there's a couple of 406 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: different tests that are done. First off, there is a 407 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: drop test that's actually done so if you have a 408 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: weapon where it is charged, and charging a weapon can 409 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: be safe. For instance, if you think about a handgun 410 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: that has a semi automatic with a slide on it. Okay, 411 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: so you see it on television where people racked the 412 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: slide back and it's it's off safety, so it's red 413 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: as dead. Remember, so if the safety is red, it 414 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: means dead. So what they will do is they will 415 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: take the question weapon and they will drop it from 416 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: a height. If the weapon is charged, okay, and they 417 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: will see if merely by dropping that weapon, if the 418 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: firing pin, if the firing pin releases and engages, okay, 419 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: And they'll do that. 420 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: In the very time Alec Baldwin testing when he said 421 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 2: the gun just fired, he didn't touch the trigger. They 422 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: dropped that gun. 423 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they did a drop test on it, and 424 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: what and so the chances of that happening there, they're outliers. 425 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: It just it doesn't happen. Now, Listen, every weapon, you 426 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: can have a production line of weapons. Okay, let's just 427 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: say ABC Gun Corporation makes a particular type of handgun 428 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: platform and they do a run of say two hundred 429 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: weapons at one time. You can have one in there 430 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: that might have a faulty trigger mechanism. You might confine it, okay, 431 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: but nine times out of ten, this is just not 432 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: going to happen. 433 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 2: So with that. 434 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 1: Said, With that said, the other thing that we that 435 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: we think about traditionally also is trigger pull. So if 436 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: everybody will think about your if you're left or right hand, 437 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 1: to use your index finger to place it on. You 438 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: put your finger pad the end of your index finger, 439 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: your finger pad on the trigger itself. And how many 440 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: times do you watch movies and whatnot? Particularly people in military, 441 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: they'll talk about your handling the weapon unsafely if you 442 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: have your finger inside the trigger housing. People that know 443 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: how to handle weapons keep their finger outside the trigger housing. 444 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: All right, So you're ready to shoot, and so what 445 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: we do there is actually a weight test. This is 446 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: pretty fascinating. You take the weapon and you charge it, okay, 447 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: Then you hang the weapon, all right, and you place 448 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: weight on that weapon. And have you ever heard the 449 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: term certain amounts of pounds of pressure that it takes 450 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: to engage that trigger. Well, you add weight and that 451 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: gives you the number of pounds okay, I won't take Yeah, 452 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: that takes to engage the trigger. And so you've heard 453 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: the term say, for instance, a hair trigger, Well, hair 454 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: trigger is not I think people say that about individuals 455 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: who who will say they're going to fire a weapon 456 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: and maybe they fired weapons, and they'll say the person 457 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,239 Speaker 1: has a hair trigger. It's not the person that has 458 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: a hair trigger in the literal sense, it is the weapon. 459 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: So does it have a light touch? And weapons can 460 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: be actually adjusted to that. You can adjust weapons so 461 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: that it takes less pounds of pull in order to 462 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: initiate that firing sequence. So the lighter the touch, the 463 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: lighter the touch, the fewer pounds it takes to initiate 464 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: that firing sequence. So they run through all of these tests. 465 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: So in this particular case, if you have an individual 466 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: who states, well, yeah, the weapon accidentally discharged, you've got 467 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: three choices here. Okay, we can say she dropped the 468 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: weapon and the weapon accidentally discharged. Okay, did that happen 469 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 1: not that we know of. Okay, does the weapon have 470 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: a hair trigger? Well, we would go back and we 471 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: would test the number of pounds of pressure it would 472 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: take being applied to the trigger to get that sequence going. 473 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: Or did she accidentally put her finger inside the trigger guard? Okay, 474 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: after the weapon is charged and then happen to pull 475 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,959 Speaker 1: the trigger initiate the firing sequence. Oh and by the way, 476 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: score a lethal shot in his back and that's dynamically 477 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: that's what they're looking at, and kind of that's what 478 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: they have to understand and see if that actually works. 479 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: But as we know, in most cases like this, a 480 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: case of a weapon accidentally discharging is a red herring 481 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: at best. All Right, Dave, got a proposition for you. 482 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: All Right, I'm game, be very careful before you make 483 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: that statement, particularly in regardless to what I'm about to say. 484 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: What would it I'll say? Okay, let me bear the 485 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: burden here. Okay, I'm the perpetrator, all right, your old 486 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: buddy Joe Scott, I'm the perpetrator. If I'm the perpetrator 487 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: and you're aware that I have just quote unquote accidentally 488 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: shot somebody. First off, two part question here might be 489 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: a two part with multiple subsections. Hang on, you know me, 490 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm rather verbose. So okay, so let's say I accidentally 491 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: shoot somebody. All right. First off, if you're in the 492 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: same structure with me and you hear the report of 493 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: a firearm going off and you rush upstairs, it's not 494 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: just me, it's you, and we've got a person on 495 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: the floor, either dead or dying. Why aren't you saying 496 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: we got to call an ambulance and get somebody over here. Secondly, 497 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: you've bought into the idea that maybe he's dead I 498 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: don't know, can't confirm it, or maybe maybe it's an accident. 499 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: We got to call the cops. He's dead, we can 500 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: prove this. Or hey, Dave, will you go out to 501 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: the shed and grab the axe, the hatchet, maybe a 502 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: soft I need one, and help me take a part 503 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: this person's body. Oh and by the bye, help me 504 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: deposit it over a two county area? Are you a game? 505 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: I think that's the question? What what? 506 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: What? My response is, Okay, Joe, it's an accident. Let's 507 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 2: just call the police and get them over here and 508 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: let them deal with the poor old James here, because 509 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: you know James is dead, he's he's your boyfriend. But anyway, 510 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: the bottom line here is that you got a dead 511 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: guy on the floor. You were the two people in 512 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: the room, and I was downstairs because you wouldn't let 513 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 2: me help in the argument, and now you want me 514 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 2: to go and chop up the body with you. Okay, sure, no. 515 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: I gotta This is the thing I've got to ask 516 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: in regards to Mitchellina good ones and then Larry Murphy, right, 517 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: how how committed of a friendship do you have to be? 518 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: In just go with me here. How committed of a 519 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: friendship do you have to be in here to say, yeah, man, 520 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: I'm all on board for this task. I will sit 521 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: here and I will undertake this gruesome duty with you 522 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: to make sure what you know, what kind of reward 523 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: are you offering this man that he is literally going 524 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: to run the risk of spending the rest of his 525 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: life in prison? I mean, what do you have over 526 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: his head? And also are you in pair in some manner? 527 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: Are you mentally impaired? Are you maybe uh drug addled 528 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: in some way? I don't. 529 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that. 530 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: Curious about that. 531 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: We find all this out by going back a minute 532 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: when we were talking about Micheline A Goodwin sits down 533 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: with the police. They've gotten no information really because there's 534 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: only two people that know where James uh Narbacheck is Nabucheck. 535 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: They are only two people and that is Micheline A. 536 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,959 Speaker 2: Goodwin and Larry Murphy. There are only two people that know. 537 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: All the police know is the guy's missing. That's and 538 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 2: he's an adult. The Michelina said he grabbed the company 539 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: truck and went out of state. We were breaking up. 540 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: So based on that limited information that the police have, 541 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 2: they really only can go after these two individuals, and 542 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: they break Michelina first, and that's how they find out. 543 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: It's not like the police were investigating and knew that 544 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: his body was somewhere other than the house. Police didn't 545 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: know that. They just knew they couldn't find him anywhere. 546 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: And so it's Michelina Goodwin who actually then tells police, okay, 547 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: we cut him up. Wait a minute, we you and 548 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: mister Murphy, you chopped him up. Where's his body? And 549 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: so she takes them to the body parts and that's 550 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: where we know. They're strewn in remote areas of two 551 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: different counties, which leads you to believe they chopped him 552 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: up in small enough bags like doggie bags. I'm guessing. 553 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 2: I'm not thinking that they didn't roll them up in 554 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: a piece of carpet. And you know, do those they 555 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: put him in bags? I guess, Joe, Yeah. 556 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: Generally what will happen is that they will be placed 557 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: into individual bags like this, or wrapped in in some 558 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: type of sort of paper. And on a side here, 559 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: I got to tell you this, many people might not 560 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: be aware of this. Did you know that years ago 561 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: back in the morgue. We didn't use body backs in 562 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: many cases. I know the first morgue I ever worked in, 563 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: we actually used butcher paper. You remember, a butcher paper 564 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: is brown, and it was on a huge role and 565 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: we would wrap bodies in it. And it's made in 566 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 1: such a manner. I'm not a paper expert, but it's 567 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: made in such a manner that it would absorb blood. 568 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: And so I've had body parts that have been wrapped 569 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: actually in newspaper, and I've had body parts that are 570 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: wrapped in plastic over the course of my career, or 571 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: I have seen them as a result of cases that 572 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: I was assisting in our autopsy in where they're brought. 573 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: You know, they're brought in one of my colleagues work 574 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: case as the investigator, and so you you think about 575 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: this and how does that conversation go in the vehicle 576 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: as well? You know, so you're writing about all through 577 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: the countryside a place that you're famil o, you're with. 578 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: Remember you're not going they're not driving down to the shore, 579 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: you know in Maryland where you know in an environment, 580 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: say if you go to a watery environment and up there, 581 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: what are they really known for in Maryland? Grotesque here. 582 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: But you've got a lot of wetlands. But you've also 583 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: got blue crabs. We have them in South Louisiana. Guess 584 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: what they love. They're scavengers. And so you're going to 585 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: deposit body parts all about the place like this, and 586 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 1: you're riding around trying to make this decision. Well, gee, 587 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: that looks like a good spot. Let's drive on a 588 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 1: little further. That looks like a good spot. And how 589 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: long would this take? How long would it take? Because 590 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: you know, this victim is not a small man. He's 591 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: not a small man. And so once you get it passed, 592 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: and I go back to to this case involving Melissa Woffenberger, 593 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: the you know, they still don't have her torso. Torso 594 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: is the most difficult element of the body to get 595 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: rid of, and particularly if you're trying to dissect it out. 596 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: If I don't know if folks know this, did you 597 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: know that your body, particularly torso, is broken down into quadrants. 598 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: So when you're you have quadrants that are generally on 599 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: the front of your body. And if you take an 600 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 1: anatomy clash, you know you look at say the top 601 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: left quadrant, top right quadrant, bottom right quadrant bottom left quadrant, 602 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: and you can also break that down abdominantly, so you 603 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: have to factor that into the equation as well as 604 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: how are you going to essentially parse the body up 605 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: and it becomes a genuine when undertaking where they did, 606 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: this would have been super saturated with blood. 607 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 2: Okay, let me stop you there, because that's what I 608 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 2: had to ask Joe. We have this, We have the 609 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 2: police with no information until they sit down with Mischelina 610 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 2: Goodwin and she admits to what they've done. They were 611 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: not you know, the police are not allowed to just 612 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 2: come in your house on a fishing expedition, and there's 613 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: a real good reason for that, okay, But in this case, 614 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 2: they could not come up with a good reason to 615 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 2: get a search warrant to go into that house because 616 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 2: they obviously would have been able to find blood based 617 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 2: on where she said he was shot. 618 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and hopefully Nancy doesn't get mad at me about this, 619 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: and you know she calls me up saying, Joe, Scott, 620 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: just Scott. But do you know constitutionally, the Supreme Court 621 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: has ruled there is no exception, there is no exception 622 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: to your right's privacy even when it comes to homicide investigation. 623 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: The only time Okay, this is how this would work. 624 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up. So the only time 625 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: that say, for instance, you can't go searching in what 626 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: to refer to as hidden places. You have to have 627 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: a specific search warrant. So if a police officer walks 628 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: into a house to ascertain the safety, almost like a 629 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: welfare check, like you're walking into a house, if they 630 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: see blood, say, sweeping out from beneath the bottom of 631 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: a closet, they can open that door for the purposes 632 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: of seeing if anyone is in there they need help, 633 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: And if they find a dead body, they still cannot 634 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: They still cannot begin to work the scene. They have 635 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: to back out of the house after it's secured and 636 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: made safe and make sure no one else is you know, 637 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: in harm's way, search one, and then go back in 638 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: and process the scene. 639 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: Okay, because if they start searching right then. 640 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: It's all it's all thrown out. Yeah, it's you have 641 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: to have a good And there's multiple court cases that 642 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: go to this point, and I could rattle them off. 643 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 1: I actually teach them at the police cademy every year 644 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: about this. Particularly. There's really no exceptions. 645 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: Whenever I get into an argument with somebody about this, 646 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 2: and I'm was like, look, the reason the law is there. 647 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 2: What if there's a police officer that doesn't like Dave 648 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 2: mack yep and he just decides I don't like what 649 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: he says on the show I'm and he comes into 650 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 2: my house finding a reason to arrest me. They can't 651 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 2: do that. That's why it's not a reasonable thing. You 652 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 2: have to go before a judge. You have to write 653 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 2: down probable cause, what do you think you're going to find? 654 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: Where do you think you're going to find it? Where 655 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: you're going to look? The judge reads all that and 656 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 2: based on the evidence, that's where they say, Okay, go ahead, off, 657 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: go in there and get what you got to get. 658 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: But in this case, yeah, that's what I'm saying, they 659 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 2: didn't have it. They could not until Michelini Goodwin sat 660 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 2: down with Police Joe. They couldn't go in there apparently 661 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 2: because they didn't know. They had assumptions. That was about 662 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 2: all they had for a month. 663 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: Well, what's fascinating about this case, Dave, is that does 664 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: that rule apply to the body parts? Where she is 665 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: taking you out to a location and let's just say 666 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: they threw they threw one of the elements of the 667 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,359 Speaker 1: body into the ditch. Okay, immediately adjason. It's in a 668 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: public area, it's in plane view, which is there's actually 669 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: a plane view doctrine. They're not going into someone's house. 670 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: You've got an alleged perpetrator who's confessing to this. They said, Yeah, 671 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: that's the foot right there, that's the hand right there. 672 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, that's the head right there. Do they need 673 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: a warrant to collect that? Probably not. They're going to 674 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: process it and just to be safe, they might get 675 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: a warrant at that point in time. But if you're 676 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: talking to like a physical structure where the dismemberment actually 677 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: took place, then that that's a completely different kettle of 678 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: fish because you have you have an expectation of privacy 679 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: within your own home. So they would if they're developing 680 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: this information and her confession would be enough to develop 681 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: a warrant off of, and they could go back and 682 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: process the scene. They're going to be looking for remnants 683 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: of blood, maybe impact areas that keep using the term 684 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: which is horrible chopping shopping in this case before Joey, 685 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's It's stated over and over 686 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: that if you're facilitating chopping up a body per se, 687 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: are there going to be underlying strike marks, Say, if 688 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: you're doing it on a floor, whether it's a wooden floor, 689 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: stone floor, vinyl floor, whatever, is there associated blood blood 690 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: evidence is left behind with this as well, and that's 691 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: certainly something to consider. Or in this particular. 692 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 2: Case, you know, we had the case out in California. 693 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: Have the agent's son, you know, the super powerful agent 694 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 2: guy whose son is accused of killing his wife and 695 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: dumping her torso in the trash dumpster, and that you know, 696 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 2: he had some he had hired some workers to take 697 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: these bags away and they like they opened it up 698 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 2: and like there's body parts and he's lots of mannequin. 699 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 2: It's Halloween. In this case. The police get the information 700 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 2: from Michelini goodwhen she tells them we took care of this. 701 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 2: Now they go to these different areas and get the bag. 702 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 2: She leads them to these remote areas. Yes, when because 703 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 2: when we look at a map and you see a line, 704 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:49,399 Speaker 2: here's x Y's here's Charles County, here's Mabel County, they 705 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 2: mean something because they're different jurisdictions. For police oftentimes, do 706 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 2: you have to like go out there and you know, 707 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 2: bring out the compass and you know, a road crew 708 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: to determine is this the right this county or not? 709 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 2: I mean, if it crosses over into a different county, 710 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 2: I got a bag, I got a foot over here, 711 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 2: and I've got an arm over here in a different county? 712 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 2: Do I have to call the police in all these 713 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 2: different areas? 714 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's advisable, and sheriffs were out there. However, do 715 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: you know who actually processes scene? The Maryland State Police. Okay, 716 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: so they have state they have statewide jurisdiction. Okay, But 717 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 1: to your point, and I think this is kind of fascinating, 718 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: what they would do in a case like this is 719 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: that they're going to put markers down with every bit 720 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: of evidence. It's particularly in the deposition areas, and they're 721 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: going to geographically map this area, and it's you know, 722 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: it's quite striking. You know, I think I think any 723 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: of us can identify with this if you're just say 724 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: you're looking, I don't know. I think I hate to 725 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: reduce it down to this, but say you're trying to 726 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: buy a new home and you go to one of 727 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: these things like Zillow or one of these things, and 728 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 1: you're looking, well, what area of this particular geographic location 729 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: our most houses selling in and you look for that 730 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: concentrated area. Take that and apply it to deposition of 731 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: body parts. Or if you're looking at serial killer, which 732 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: this has been done for a long time. Wow, you 733 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: look at where bodies have been deposited all of the place, 734 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: and people try to find these patterns and things, and 735 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: sometimes they marry up with common thoroughfares that a suspect 736 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: might take to go do things, say if you're going 737 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: grocery shopping, or if the person is dealing drugs, for instance, 738 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: areas that you would might have some kind of peripheral 739 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: knowledge of. But you know, Dave, it's this case is 740 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: certainly different in the fact that you've got two perpetrators 741 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: in this case and they essentially both roll over. What 742 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: exactly was Larry Murphy his part to this? Did he 743 00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: wind up being charged? 744 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 2: He was charged, Joe. He was charged with first degree murder, 745 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 2: second degree murder, burial or disposal of a body in 746 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 2: an authorized place, and accessory after the fact, murder. And 747 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 2: one thing that came out of all of this, and 748 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 2: I'm still a little stunned the mess, just that they 749 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 2: had it left behind me. I know they tried to 750 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 2: clean it up to cover their tracks, but Joe, it 751 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 2: had to just have been horrible. Is there any way 752 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 2: to get yes it clean after that? 753 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: You can't. You can't get rid of it. In totality. 754 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: You can't make it disappear, no matter how much scrubbing 755 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: you do, no matter how much raking of dirt, no 756 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 1: matter how much painting you do, perhaps or laying down 757 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: of carpet. But I do know this, I do know this. 758 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:07,799 Speaker 1: Both Goodwin and Murphy have, at least for the time being, 759 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: disappeared from freedom. They're now incarcerated Mitchellina Goodwin was actually 760 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: charged and convicted and is now currently serving sixty one 761 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: years in the Maryland State Penitentiary. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 762 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,320 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks.