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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

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Speaker 1: Late in the afternoon of January two thousand seventeen, Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: guided by Stephen Miller, issued the Muslim Ban. Hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people had their immigration status changed in mid air. They'd

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Speaker 1: taken off from their home countries with permission to migrate,

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Speaker 1: or to visit friends or have a business meeting. They

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Speaker 1: landed essentially as illegal immigrants. Those travelers needed the rule

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Speaker 1: of law, needed a savior. They found one in my

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Speaker 1: guest today, Becca Heller. Her organization, the International Refugee Assistance Project,

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Speaker 1: deployed an army of volunteer lawyers to the airports. One

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Speaker 1: of them obtained a court order forbidding deportations. As Trump's

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Speaker 1: court troubles grew, he essentially gave up for a while

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Speaker 1: the good guys had won. Heller was an overnight celebrity

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Speaker 1: on every nightly news show. She got a New York

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Speaker 1: Times profile, a Daily Show appearance, and a MacArthur Genius grant.

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Speaker 1: I WRAP tripled its budget in a year. Now, almost

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Speaker 1: two years later, Heller has helped over two hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: migrants and refugees stay in the United States. It would

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Speaker 1: be heroic work for anyone, but especially so for someone

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Speaker 1: in their mid thirties with a toddler and a pile

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Speaker 1: of student loans. Where do her energy and courage come from?

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Speaker 1: As it turns out, the answer is suburbia. My dad

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Speaker 1: was a cardiologist. My parents are both still Have'm using

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Speaker 1: past tense just because they're retired, not because anything tragic happened.

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Speaker 1: But I was a cardiologist in my mom todd Public

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Speaker 1: School where I grew up in the Bay Area. I

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Speaker 1: have many siblings. I have one younger brother. And what's

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Speaker 1: he doing now? He's not solving the immigration problem he is.

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Speaker 1: I think he's day trading, is how you would describe. Okay, school,

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Speaker 1: someone's got to do that. Yeah, someone gonna take the

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Speaker 1: money that you have in your budget and invested somewhere.

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Speaker 1: He's not trading our budget. He's not helping your budget.

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Speaker 1: He's not even hoping me personally. I've asked him what

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Speaker 1: I should do with my money, and he doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to be responsible if I lose it all. I had

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Speaker 1: a dear friend that might say the same thing to me.

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Speaker 1: I said, what should I do in terms of the

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Speaker 1: business manager to invest my money? He goes what he goes,

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Speaker 1: What would I do? Or what do I think you

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Speaker 1: should do? How different? He said, I would never tell

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Speaker 1: you to do what I did. I don't want that responsibility.

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Speaker 1: And now, so you grew up in the Bay Area

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Speaker 1: and through high school were you an activist to what

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Speaker 1: were you doing? I was like, I want to be activist,

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Speaker 1: Like I had all these ideas for things all the time,

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Speaker 1: and I felt sort of very empathic towards especially homelessness

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Speaker 1: is a very visible manifestation of area in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 1: you know, because the weather is good, right, it's a

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Speaker 1: tolerant community to like, there's a there's a level of

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Speaker 1: homeless and you just don't see on Park Avenue in

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Speaker 1: the seventies and I live in the village and you

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Speaker 1: see quite a bit of it because that community down

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Speaker 1: is a lot more tolerant, right. And you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: see if tech changes that for better, right. But I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, that was so visible, and I remember always

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Speaker 1: being really worked up by that and having these big

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Speaker 1: ideas of you know, when I was ten, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a blanket drive and then just not

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Speaker 1: doing it because I think I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: felt dis empowered, or I just felt scared or I

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Speaker 1: didn't know my own You had the passion, but you

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Speaker 1: didn't follow through. Yeah, pretty like many people, I think.

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Speaker 1: And then you go to Dartmouth, y u S. Darmouths

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Speaker 1: like of all the IVS is like the most animal

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Speaker 1: house of the ivs. Is that is that fair? You

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Speaker 1: think I can't roll with animals? No, I'm I'm closing

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Speaker 1: my eyes. I'm thinking about you like having a blanket

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Speaker 1: drive up there, and and well, here's the thing. I

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Speaker 1: never did the blanket drive, right, I'm the person who

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Speaker 1: wanted to and then went to Darmouth instead. No, I

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Speaker 1: actually I had an amazing time at Darmouth Dartmouth. I

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Speaker 1: messed up applying to college the first time around. Um.

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Speaker 1: I applied to two schools early, and one of them

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Speaker 1: found out and told the other, and they both rescinded

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Speaker 1: my offer of admission, and I took a year off

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Speaker 1: and I did AmeriCorps Um, which I would pinpoint as

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Speaker 1: sort of like the turning point of when I realized

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Speaker 1: that I need to re say that, because I dropped

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Speaker 1: that on the table and it made a weird echoing.

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Speaker 1: I think people can tell, right, away. This is going

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Speaker 1: to be a very bumpy interview, Aracor. It's the kind

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Speaker 1: of domestic peace corps. Where So, where did you go?

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Speaker 1: I stayed at home because they don't pay you very much,

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Speaker 1: So I lived with my folks, and I was working

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Speaker 1: at an elementary school in Berkeley on sort of broadly

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Speaker 1: equal opportunity education stuff. And they just gave us this

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Speaker 1: big budget and they were like, do programming to help

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Speaker 1: fight institutional oppression. And I was like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that means. I don't know how to do that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna give it a shot. And then I think,

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Speaker 1: much to my surprise, it turned out there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of things that that we could do collectively. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: when you leave school, when you leave Dartmouth, you go

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Speaker 1: to law school, you go right one to the other.

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Speaker 1: You take another gap. Oh no, I took I took

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Speaker 1: two years. What you doing that? Two years? I was

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Speaker 1: in Malawi for a year on a full bright um

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Speaker 1: and then I actually went to Vermont for a year,

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Speaker 1: partly for a boy partly for a job. I ended

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Speaker 1: up working on the Freedom to Marry campaign in Vermont.

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Speaker 1: Did you find you had to kind of a peripatetic nature.

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Speaker 1: You like moving around, and you weren't married at the time,

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Speaker 1: you had no kids, And did you find now is

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Speaker 1: the time for me to go to Malawi? For Were

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Speaker 1: you were there for like a year? Right? Yeah? I

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Speaker 1: was there for a year. I still I am pretty peripatetic. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I get really claustrophobic if I stay in one place

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Speaker 1: for too long. Um. I like to move around. I

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Speaker 1: think the world is just completely fascinating. I like to

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Speaker 1: see as much as your husband's share of that passion

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Speaker 1: with you or he's he has like a huge zest

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Speaker 1: for life. He doesn't like long plane rides as much

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Speaker 1: as I do, but yeah, he loves to travel and

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Speaker 1: I'm taking Actually, Um, the day after Trump was elected,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't really get out of bed, but I went

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Speaker 1: to the Brooklyn Public Library and got my kid, who

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Speaker 1: was one at the time, a passport because just I

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Speaker 1: professionally help people flee UM, and I like, if this

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Speaker 1: all goes to ship, I'm not going to not be

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Speaker 1: able to get across the Canada border. Because she has

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Speaker 1: a different last name from me, but she's never actually

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Speaker 1: traveled internationally. But in in January, taking her and my

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Speaker 1: mom to Costa Rica, which I'm really excited about. I

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Speaker 1: want I want her to be equally parapedetic. What was

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Speaker 1: your awareness of Malawi and what was going on in

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Speaker 1: Malawi before you showed up there. Well, I had been

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Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe on and off for the year before doing

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Speaker 1: what work. On paper, I was helping build community gardens

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Speaker 1: as a response to HIV related malnutrition at public health clinics.

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Speaker 1: But I think when you're you know, if you're an

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Speaker 1: activist and you're deep in the middle of a problem,

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Speaker 1: you're always like, what's the root cause of this? Right?

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Speaker 1: And in Zimbabwe, the root cause of this was like

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Speaker 1: the ruling party, So I ended up getting involved in

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Speaker 1: some political opposition stuff um and ended up needing to

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Speaker 1: leave the country. What kind of gardens community community gardens

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Speaker 1: to address malnutrition in the HIV community? That sounds pretty

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Speaker 1: benign and pretty wonderful. What do you land in Zimbabwe

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Speaker 1: knowing that the government and the status quo needs to

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Speaker 1: be addressed, or do you learn that there land the

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Speaker 1: accidental activist or you're predisposed both. I mean I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I would say that I landed aware of the problems

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Speaker 1: because I do my homework, so like I landed knowing

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Speaker 1: that ZANU p F, which was the ruling party, had

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Speaker 1: said no one can buy maize meal, which is the

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Speaker 1: staple food without a political party membership card, which means

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Speaker 1: that like it doesn't matter how sick you are, in

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Speaker 1: order to get food, you have to say that your

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Speaker 1: loyalty right literally or starved to death. So, like I

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Speaker 1: knew that, I didn't go in there saying, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna fix that. I'm going to address that, you know,

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Speaker 1: but eventually couldn't help yourself. I mean, I stumbled into

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Speaker 1: a meeting of the opposition party and had some feelings.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I was primed in a way

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Speaker 1: that like, I'm not afraid of a good fight on

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Speaker 1: behalf of a good cause. But I also I think

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Speaker 1: going into on place, especially with like a fighting mentality,

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Speaker 1: is usually like really unproductive. Tell me about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think historically America hasn't been that good at not

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Speaker 1: doing that. Um, So I didn't go in saying like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna struggle for regime change, but I went in

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Speaker 1: being like, there's a problem, which is that like really

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Speaker 1: sick people don't have access to immune boosting foods. And

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Speaker 1: this was before anti retroviral therapy was really widely available.

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Speaker 1: And you know, HIV doesn't kill you. What it does

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Speaker 1: is weaken your immune system, and then you get a

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Speaker 1: secondary infection that kills you. So nutrition becomes really important.

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Speaker 1: So I had this like theory that I thought might work,

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Speaker 1: but I went in knowing that it was just a

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Speaker 1: theory and that really, like I didn't know shit about

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Speaker 1: ship and so I was open to learning that the

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Speaker 1: problem had other facets and there might be a better

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Speaker 1: way to Yeah, political or not. What kind of facilities

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Speaker 1: did you live in? I lived with a family. I

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Speaker 1: originally actually was living with a black family because I

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Speaker 1: had this weird concept of like solidarity that like, oh,

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Speaker 1: just because I'm privileged and have a cell phone, like

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean I should get to stay in a fancy house,

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Speaker 1: like I should stay in the township like everybody else.

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Speaker 1: And then one night some rocks were thrown in the

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Speaker 1: window and the rocks said ma zongu on them, which

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Speaker 1: means like, white person, go back to the embarcadera. I'm

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Speaker 1: from the East Bay, so I don't mess around. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was a sort of awakening moment for me of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's solid aarity doesn't mean that I like pretend that

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Speaker 1: we're the same. How much longer did you last in Zimbabwe?

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Speaker 1: That was the beginning, and so what happened after that?

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Speaker 1: I kept doing the same work, but I moved in

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Speaker 1: with a white family so that I wasn't like putting

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Speaker 1: people in danger with my physical presence. So what is

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Speaker 1: the end game there? I mean, when did you realize

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Speaker 1: it was time to get out of there? Well, I

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Speaker 1: got to report it, like someone comes to your going

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Speaker 1: the I got picked up by the local police and

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Speaker 1: take into a police station and uh, they like held

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Speaker 1: me in an office for seven hours, and I started

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Speaker 1: out really scared, and then by the end, I just

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Speaker 1: like had to pee worse than I've ever had to

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Speaker 1: pee in my life. And then they came in and

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Speaker 1: they're like, you need to leave the country. We're going

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Speaker 1: to take you to the airport. And I was like, great,

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Speaker 1: can we stop my bathroom please? And that was kind

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Speaker 1: of and then they the family ship me my stuff

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Speaker 1: like came home. What happened? What'd you start doing? That

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Speaker 1: was when I got the full bright to go to Malawi.

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Speaker 1: And then I went to Malawi for a year, and

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Speaker 1: what was the work in Malawi. I was working for

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Speaker 1: the Malawian government. What did the Malawian government want you

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Speaker 1: to do? I was working for their Ministry of HIV

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Speaker 1: AIDS and Malnutrition, and they wanted me to write their

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Speaker 1: like five year HIV AIDS and Malnutrition. Probably yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm twenty three. I still don't know anything

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Speaker 1: about these issues. They wanted someone who could write fluently

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Speaker 1: in English, that they could submit proposals to the World

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Speaker 1: Health Organization to get funding. And then when you were

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Speaker 1: there for a year, Yeah, did you accomplish what you

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Speaker 1: wanted to accomplish in Malawi? Not remotely. Should we look

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Speaker 1: back on that year, how do you characterize that year?

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Speaker 1: I was bored and you learned? I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I I mean, I came back opposed to foreign aid.

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Speaker 1: Why for a bunch of reasons. I mean, one, I

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Speaker 1: feel like a lot of it gets lost to corruption.

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Speaker 1: To I feel like it displaces the growth of a

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Speaker 1: real middle class. I think that if you know, in Malawi,

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Speaker 1: for example, um, some huge amount of their g d

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Speaker 1: P was in the form of foreign aid. And if

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Speaker 1: like America keeps subsidizing farmers to grow a bunch of food,

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Speaker 1: we don't use and then dumps that food for free

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Speaker 1: on countries like Malawe. It becomes really hard from Allowyan

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Speaker 1: farmers to ever grow anything market take care of themselves. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it just created infantalize the culture there. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it it prevented any real local economic growth. To your board,

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Speaker 1: You're like, what do I do? Let's go to Yale

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Speaker 1: law school? Now. Then I chased a boid of Vermont

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Speaker 1: because I thought I really missed Vermont and i'dywre there

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Speaker 1: for how long? For a year? And in pursuit of

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Speaker 1: helping gay men and women get married? Did you end

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Speaker 1: up getting married to the boy you chased it for? Monty?

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Speaker 1: Did you close that deal? I did not. We I

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Speaker 1: am married to someone else. Once that guy you chased

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Speaker 1: everyone found that he can get married to a guy.

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Speaker 1: He wouldn't marry a guy. That must have been what happened?

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Speaker 1: Why else would we not be together anymore? How long

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Speaker 1: were you in VERMONTI here, so it seems like a

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Speaker 1: year or your shelf lest well, it was in your youth.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying I'm not in my youth anymore? But

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Speaker 1: like in your pre youth? You invite me onto your

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Speaker 1: podcast and you tell me I'm no longer in my year,

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Speaker 1: in your natal stage and your prenatal stage when I

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Speaker 1: was an embryo nine months was my shelfy Um, No,

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Speaker 1: I did a lot of stuff for here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think I think most people in their early twenties

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Speaker 1: should do that, like a year or two. I think

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Speaker 1: your twenties is a time tops of issues. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: you like you don't know what floats your boat, like

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Speaker 1: try out a bunch of stuff like that's your I

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Speaker 1: always tell people that I said, either before you go

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Speaker 1: to college in this way of a gap year, which

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Speaker 1: I just love that idea, said don't go to college,

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Speaker 1: I said, take a year off and work at travel.

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Speaker 1: If you can take a gap year is the I mean,

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Speaker 1: I didn't do it on purpose, but it's the best

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Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to me. So then when when

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Speaker 1: you just said to go to law school and why

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Speaker 1: I think I've was kind of known I was going

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Speaker 1: to go to law school, did you feel that that

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Speaker 1: was just like that was a that you wanted in

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Speaker 1: your chamber. I didn't know kind of like which social

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Speaker 1: justice just us I wanted to take on. But I

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Speaker 1: felt like whatever I was working on like at a

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Speaker 1: certain point, you just run up against the law, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to know if a law degree was a

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Speaker 1: way to kind of get over that hurdle, and I

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Speaker 1: worried that it wasn't. How do you describe your gears

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Speaker 1: in law school? Intense? It was a lot. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Gale's nice because they don't make you take any classes.

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Speaker 1: So I basically just did clinics, which is where you

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Speaker 1: work on cases directly. I founded I RAP in law school.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get to that, yeah, yeah, But I mean

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Speaker 1: I just I did I WRAP. I did like the

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Speaker 1: human rights clinic. I did the immigration clinic. I got

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Speaker 1: to like depose racist cops. That was pretty fun. Uh

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Speaker 1: in New Haven in Danburry? How did that go over? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I loved it and we won the case? Did you

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Speaker 1: get deported from Connecticut? So when you found I wrap?

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Speaker 1: How does that idea come to you? How does the

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Speaker 1: the idea of im ration is the issue that becomes

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Speaker 1: your creed decur obviously for the last several years. How

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Speaker 1: out did that happen? When I came to law school,

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Speaker 1: I thought I wanted to do international human rights law,

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Speaker 1: and then I realized that that's mostly pr like when

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Speaker 1: when an international human rights court rules on something, it's

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Speaker 1: not really binding, right, Like they can hold that this

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Speaker 1: thing that the US does is illegal and the US

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Speaker 1: is free to keep doing it. And what happens is

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Speaker 1: there will be an article that the like YadA YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: court ruled that this country is behaving illegally. But usually

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Speaker 1: it doesn't actually lead to anything in practice. The sort

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Speaker 1: of naming and shaming element of the sort of public

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Speaker 1: relations nature of human rights law is really important. It

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Speaker 1: just didn't interest me as the thing I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be doing every day, because I wanted something a little toothier.

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Speaker 1: And so I got really interested in an asylum law

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Speaker 1: because it's people who are fleeing international human rights violations

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Speaker 1: and then looking for a remedy that will actually help

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Speaker 1: them kind of restart their lives. There's you know, they've

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Speaker 1: fled something really awful, They've gotten to a place where

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Speaker 1: they think they can be safe, and they're trying to stay.

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Speaker 1: So it felt like a way that I could address

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Speaker 1: the fallout of international human rights violations, but in a

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Speaker 1: way that had concrete meaning, even if it was on

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Speaker 1: you know, a person by person scale, rather than like

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Speaker 1: a nation by nation scale. So you decided to set

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Speaker 1: it up? How and where? What's the physical operation there?

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Speaker 1: There wasn't one for a long time. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have a cell phone. I don't even know if I

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Speaker 1: had a self I guess I had a cell phone.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have an iPhone. I sort of wandered into

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Speaker 1: the issue. I was doing an internship between my first

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Speaker 1: and second years of law school, and the NGO I

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Speaker 1: was with just sort of didn't have enough for me

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Speaker 1: to do. And I really hate that, like I hate

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Speaker 1: wasting my time. Well, also, you know we're all going

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Speaker 1: to die, so the minutes are important. To see all

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Speaker 1: the painties in the museum before I started with my childhood. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that that's very exciting and very admirable. But

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Speaker 1: you've been doing this for how long though? Six years,

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Speaker 1: seven years, eight to ten, depending on a long long time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've improved my shelf life by in order of magnitude

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Speaker 1: you're in. I'm in. I as the Hotel California for me,

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Speaker 1: as I thought, I go startra or the Eagles, and

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Speaker 1: I want the Eagle. I'm always down. Okay, I hate

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Speaker 1: the fucking Eagles. Man. Know, I was quoting the Big

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Speaker 1: LASKI we're doing overlapping cultural references. I know, I was

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Speaker 1: trying to hang eagles. I love it when when when

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Speaker 1: law school ends, well here's what happened. I am really

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Speaker 1: obsessed with efficiency, going back to my mortality thing a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But I also just like, I'm not It's

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Speaker 1: not about ego for me, right, I'm not like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I want to start an organization, like I actually really didn't.

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Speaker 1: People go to law school not knowing what they want

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Speaker 1: to do, and I actually went to law school wanting

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Speaker 1: to be a lawyer. Like I love the practice of law. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's just like it's it mirrors how my mind works.

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Speaker 1: Really well, I think, yeah, I don't do that really, uh,

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Speaker 1: because that's not It turns out running an organization isn't

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Speaker 1: about like doing the programming of the organization basically. Like

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Speaker 1: I I met with these refugees in Jordan's after quitting

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Speaker 1: this internship in Israel, and they all just needed legal assistance. Um.

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Speaker 1: They were you know, they can't go back to a

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Speaker 1: rock because something terrible happened to them. They can't stay

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Speaker 1: in Jordan because they have no status, that can't work,

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Speaker 1: Their kids can't go to school, they can't get healthcare,

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Speaker 1: they could be deported at any time for whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: There's only one direction they can go, right, and and

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Speaker 1: the process of deciding sort of who gets to go

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Speaker 1: in that direction and how and then who has to

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Speaker 1: get on a raft across the Mediterranean or who has

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Speaker 1: to go back to Syria and get killed is just

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Speaker 1: incredibly legalistic, super arbitrary, really complicated and bureaucratic. So I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, you need a legal advocate, Like this

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Speaker 1: is a legal process. Your life depends on the outcome.

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Speaker 1: If I were in illegal proceeding and like the death

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Speaker 1: penalty were on the line, the thing I would want

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Speaker 1: the most would be a good lawyer. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: to distill this part of it down, because I want

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Speaker 1: to think about it, I want to I want to

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Speaker 1: get in this theoretically for a minute where someone can't

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Speaker 1: go back because that means death. Like, I understand them

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Speaker 1: getting all the help they can, But do you think

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Speaker 1: that there should be limitations on immigration in this country?

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Speaker 1: And where do people who are typically line up on

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Speaker 1: the opposite side of the issue than you, Where do

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Speaker 1: you think they're right? I think mostly the problem with

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Speaker 1: how we can suptualize of immigration policy in this country

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Speaker 1: is that we look at it in a vacuum. I

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Speaker 1: think you can't answer, you know, I get asked like,

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Speaker 1: do you think there should be an open border? Do

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Speaker 1: you think do you think we should let in as

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Speaker 1: many immigrants as possible? I think it's an irrelevant question.

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Speaker 1: I think as long as we're or I think the

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Speaker 1: answer is yes. As long as we continue to overthrow

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Speaker 1: democratically elected governments and rape countries of their natural resources

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Speaker 1: such that there's no political stability or jobs, I think

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't be surprised when people have to flee those

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Speaker 1: places and show up here where all the resources have landed.

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Speaker 1: So to me, like, as long as our economic and

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Speaker 1: foreign policies are what they are, it seems really hard

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Speaker 1: to decouple our border policy. Think the United States is

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Speaker 1: responsible directly. MS thirteen exists because we overthrew governments and

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Speaker 1: then deported people back there. M S thirteen was deported

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Speaker 1: from l A to l Salvador. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: you know, and for decades, like for the whole the

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Speaker 1: isis of Central America we made in the sense that

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Speaker 1: we made it sure like how many democratically elected leaders

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Speaker 1: did the CIA overthrow in Central America in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: like tons like we destabilized that region. And then prior

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Speaker 1: to that, you know, with like United Fruit Company, like

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Speaker 1: we created plantations, we enslaved the population, We took most

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Speaker 1: of their natural resources and took them here, like we

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Speaker 1: prevented the growth of local economies. We did everything possible

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Speaker 1: over the last hundred years to destabilize them. And now

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Speaker 1: you know this whole idea that like, oh, people are

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Speaker 1: only coming because there's no jobs. It's like, well, the

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Speaker 1: fact that there's no jobs is what leads to like

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Speaker 1: drug violence, gang violence, murders, domestic violence, and that's kind

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Speaker 1: of on up. We point the finger there and say

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Speaker 1: it's a mess, and it's us. We may it's our

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Speaker 1: mat to a large degree. Yeah, I don't remember immigration

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Speaker 1: being this hot of an issue politically, hasn't been in

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Speaker 1: the sixties, seventies, eighties. Government has made it a higher

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Speaker 1: priority to use its power to persecute immigrants than they

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Speaker 1: ever had. But I don't know that anti immigrant sentiment

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Speaker 1: is necessarily that different. I think it's being stirred up right,

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Speaker 1: I think it's more activated. But I think you know,

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Speaker 1: you go back to you know, I went on this

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Speaker 1: kick on on July four this year, I read seventeen

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Speaker 1: seventy six and an attempt to remember that like revolution

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Speaker 1: on American soil was once possible. Um, they hated immigrants then,

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Speaker 1: like you know, the immigrants were the Irish, and then

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Speaker 1: later the immigrants were the Germans, and then they were

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Speaker 1: the Italians. But that you know, we've always hated immigrants.

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Speaker 1: There's a you know, the first ever Supreme Court case

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Speaker 1: saying you can't discriminate against people based on national origins

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Speaker 1: from the end of the nineteenth century about Chinese immigrants, um,

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Speaker 1: who were being sort of systematically discriminated against. And the

427
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 1: Supreme Court was like, no, you can't, you can't do

428
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: that under this constitution. But it took the Supreme Court

429
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 1: stepping in two and it didn't fix it. I was

430
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: going to say, to fix it, but it didn't fix it. UM.

431
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, and of course, like I'm Jewish, um,

432
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 1: and you think about the St. Louis, which is the

433
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 1: you know, the ship carrying Jews fleeing the Holocaust that

434
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,480
Speaker 1: went from port to port to port in the very

435
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: beginning of World War two, and and no one would

436
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 1: let it dock and eventually it had to go back

437
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: to Europe, and they traced the futures of most of

438
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: those people and most of them died in Auschwitz. Um

439
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: and and America basically said, like, we would rather send

440
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: these people to their death than have to admit Jews

441
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 1: as refugees. That doesn't feel that different to me. Um

442
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: It just like, is is really tragic that we can't

443
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: seem to learn from our mistakes. Lawyer and refugee advocate

444
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 1: Becca Heller of the International Refugee Assistance Project. There are

445
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 1: now more refugees in the world persecuted and unable to

446
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: go home than at any time in history. Only the

447
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: end of war and hunger can keep people from trying

448
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 1: to move to save for countries. The medical charity Doctors

449
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: Without Borders, known by its French acronym MSF, is on

450
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: the ground wherever violence or disaster strike. Their international president,

451
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 1: Joanne Lou joined me on here's the thing and talked

452
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 1: about her experience working in Czechenia. You are putting other

453
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: people in danger. We were on the attack on a

454
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 1: regular basis, that's one thing, but the threat of being

455
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: abducted was so huge and we knew that if something

456
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: were ever to happen to the MSF staff, then we

457
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 1: will pull out, So we were praying for not It

458
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 1: was so nerve wracking out of fear. Yeah, and I

459
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 1: hate that because you know this, this is so self

460
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: centered and compared to what all those people are going through.

461
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: Come on, get a grip on yourself. Here the rest

462
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: of that interview in our archive at Here's the Thing

463
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: dot org. After the break what really went on behind

464
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: the scenes and in the spotlight after the Muslim band

465
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: came down. This is Alec Baldwin and you were listening

466
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing now more with the hero of

467
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: the Trump resistance on refugee policy, Decca Heller. When did

468
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: you realize that Trump had a viable candidacy? Were you

469
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: even paying attention to that? I'm sure you. I'm assuming

470
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: you were. And when you sit there and go, oh

471
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: my god, he's gonna take this thing and there there's

472
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: plenty of kindling on the ground and he's squirting lighter

473
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: fluid all over the floor. Honestly, not until not until

474
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: they called Pennsylvania. I mean, we like I remember, um,

475
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: like we were really excited for election night because we're

476
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: like oh, we're gonna eat popcorn and like watch come

477
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: up and happened and and show that like you can't

478
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: win an election based on hate, and we like you know,

479
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: had beer and other things that I don't want to

480
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: say on the radio, and we put our kids to bed.

481
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: You can let it rip. I mean I I don't

482
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: want to get my bar membership revoked. No, no, don't

483
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: you dont don't, don't, don't do that. We could let

484
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: it rip in the studio, but just don't like that

485
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: in here, put that out, put it out. But we

486
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: I think everyone had this experience of just like this,

487
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 1: did you in the campaign? You sensed he was different,

488
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: You sensed he was nuts. I mean I knew. I

489
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: followed it really closely, like I knew it was happening.

490
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: And I was one of those people who was like,

491
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Hillary is totally gonna win. There's

492
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: no way she doesn't. I completely had my head in

493
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: the sand, like um, And I remember going to bed

494
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: waiting for them to call Wisconsin, and I woke up

495
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: at like three thirty and my husband was too o'cock welcome. Yeah.

496
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 1: I woke up and passed and woke up at three. Yeah,

497
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: my computer. My husband was on his phone, and I

498
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: was like, you know, did they call Wisconsin? And he

499
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: was like, they called Pennsylvania. I was, I was my

500
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: wife and I fell asleep because we got you know,

501
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: a lot of little kids, and my wife literally like

502
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 1: she was because she wasn't so miserable and tired because

503
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: of breastfeeding the baby, and my oh god, and she

504
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: just passed out again. Yeah. No, that was the same,

505
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: except for not passing out again. I just like spent

506
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: the rest of the night and sort of a series

507
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: of panic attacks. But yeah, no, I I didn't see

508
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: it coming. I really didn't. And part of that is

509
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: because I'm, you know, the bicoastal elite who like I

510
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: went from California to New England to New York, Like,

511
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: apparently I have no idea what's happening in the middle

512
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: of the country. January seventeen, everybody's at the airport. Describe

513
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: what happened, Yeah, I mean it started the three Actually,

514
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: so Trump gets sworn in on the twenty, he takes

515
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: the weekend off to go golfing because why why would

516
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: the president work on the weekends, and everyone sort of

517
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: waiting to see, like of the various awesome things that

518
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: he's promised you during the campaign. What's going to come

519
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: down first? And Monday, the travel being actually leaks to us. Um,

520
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: someone takes a photograph of a desktop monitor in the

521
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: White House, sends it to someone who sends it to

522
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: someone who sends it to us, and it has the

523
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: text of the travel ban on it. And we're like, oh, so,

524
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: And we knew it was coming right, Like, it was

525
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: not a secret that Trump didn't want refugees coming in

526
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 1: from Syria, and we assumed that we'd be grappling with

527
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: that at some point. We didn't know that it would

528
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: be like one of the first things to occur. So

529
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: we start We have a number of clients who have

530
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: permission to enter the US, but who haven't left yet

531
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: because it takes a long time to sort of sell

532
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: everything you own, tie up all your loose right to back,

533
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: right to give up your entire Yeah, I mean, you know,

534
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 1: he was a lot younger and didn't have a family.

535
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: So we start calling our clients and saying up and

536
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: get on a plane, like whatever, like take the hit

537
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: on the loss of your house and and get on planes.

538
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,239
Speaker 1: And you're saying clients you're saying the organization had had

539
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: a relationship with these people. We need to get out.

540
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: We represent thousands of individuals, Thus, how fine a bunch

541
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: of ways. We have offices in the field, We have

542
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: the NGOs and the u N re our cases to

543
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: us um the budget of six and a half billion

544
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: dollars that kind of outreach. Yeah. Yeah, we have four

545
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: people whose full time job it is just to like

546
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: reply to every inquiry where we get because so many

547
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: refugees just reach out to like hundreds and hundreds of

548
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: people and here nothing. And we feel like, at the

549
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: very least, like if you're sort of a voice crying

550
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: out in the darkness, you you deserve an answer. And

551
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: usually we try to also provide a helpful answer with

552
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: like legal advice, and then we take on their legal

553
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: cases too, and we actually the the u N refers

554
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: cases to us. That was what originally triggered me to

555
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: realize I needed to do this full time. Was when

556
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: the un called the summer between my second and third

557
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: years in law school and asked if they could refer

558
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: cases to us. First, I was really flattered, and then

559
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: I was just like ship, like, you don't have anyone

560
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: else to call like I'm not even a lawyer, Like

561
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: someone has to do this, you know. But so we

562
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: had a bunch of clients and a couple dozen who

563
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: had permission to enter but hadn't come yet. So we

564
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: reached out to all of them and we were just like,

565
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: get on a plane, well spot the plane tickets. We

566
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: got law firms to cover them, and then UM, that Wednesday,

567
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: we had a transgender client flying into l a X.

568
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: And with transgender clients, it's always really tricky when they

569
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: fly because their documentation doesn't match how they present, and

570
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: usually you worry about that when they're exiting UM, and

571
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: this time we were. I was really worried about that

572
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: when they entered, because I was like, they might be

573
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: looking for like any excuse to funk with anybody coming

574
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: in from one of these seven countries if the band

575
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: comes down. And so we arranged for a lawyer to

576
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: just like surreptitiously hang out in the arrivals area of

577
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: l a X and make sure that this woman had

578
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: the lawyer's contact info in case anything went wrong with

579
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: her entry, and thankfully it didn't. UM. But that night

580
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: I was g chatting with my policy director and she

581
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: was like Oh, thank goodness, the band didn't come down today.

582
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, because this woman was able

583
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: to make it in. And Betsy was like, yeah, all

584
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: the other people who are on her flight, and I

585
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: was like, holy sh it, this band comes down. Whenever

586
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: that is, there's gonna be thou of people who are

587
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: in the air who had legal permission to enter the

588
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: US when they took off and are going to land

589
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: essentially as undocumented, and nobody knows what's going to happen

590
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: to them. And I had spent a lot of time

591
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: between November nine and January twenty being like, what tools

592
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: do we have to deploy in this upcoming war on refugees? Right?

593
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: And the biggest thing we had was this army of lawyers.

594
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: So we had put some thought into how can we

595
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: organize that, what we want to do with it? So

596
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: I was like, we should organize lawyers to go to

597
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: all the airports. So we emailed our network and organized

598
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: lawyers to go to every international airpart lawyers we organized

599
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: six d and then I don't know how many it

600
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: ultimately ended up being, I mean thousands of thousands, yeah,

601
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: I mean. And the cool thing was that, like for

602
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: the first couple of days, like we were organizing most stuff,

603
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: and then everyone started self organizing, um, which was amazing. UM.

604
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: Like I remember being at JFK and there was this

605
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: just like super competent guy sort of like assigning people

606
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: tasks and and I've hadn't slept because we were trying

607
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: to file the lawsuit, which we can talk about, and

608
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: so of a mess. And I remember thinking I should

609
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: recruit him, and I pulled him aside at one point.

610
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: I was like, who are you, Like, what do you

611
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: do and and he was like, oh, I work at McKenzie.

612
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, are you happy there? He's

613
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: like I love it. And I was like, all right,

614
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: good to meet you. You know, next, how many people

615
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: did you get into the country? Two thousand in partnership

616
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: with other n g o s and a ton of

617
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: lawyers and you know, I mean it wasn't kept in

618
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: telling if you kept in touch with them and monitored them,

619
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: and they all still here. I have no idea, you

620
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: have no idea. I literally don't know their names. We

621
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't know the number if the a c LU hadn't

622
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: sued under the Freedom of Information Act. I guess what

623
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying is you get him here, then the rest

624
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: is up to that. Most of those people are coming

625
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: on temporary visas. My daughter is scheduled to have a

626
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: C section. I really want to be there for her.

627
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: Someone's getting married, someone is dying, someone there's an event,

628
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: um not people who are want to immigrate to the

629
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: United States, and most of them are trying to visit

630
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: family because from these seven countries, like, we're not giving

631
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: out a lot of tourist visas for you manis to

632
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: come go to Disneyland and so so most of of

633
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: visas that we're giving out, it's because you have a

634
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: really compelling reason to come and some tie to the

635
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: US because our our visa program like was not free

636
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: of sort of racial or national origin profiling before this,

637
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: right Like Irab has a Syrian staffer and we've been

638
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: applying for a visa for her to come to New

639
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: York for our all staff retreat like since the Obama administration,

640
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: and we can't get one for her. Why do you

641
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: think because they don't believe that you could be Syrian

642
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: and not intend to immigrate. The State Department, yes, and

643
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: the various other you know, you come out the other

644
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: end of this experience of the two thousand seventeen UM

645
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: airport weekend. Airport, that's what I called. My mom called

646
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: you Chase in airport weekends. He doesn't get to be

647
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: in it. Rogan could definitely play me. So you you

648
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: have airport weekend and you come out the other end

649
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: of that, and you you realize things have changed for you.

650
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: Do you feel that they change for you personally in

651
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: your in your career, your arc? I mean I I

652
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: don't maybe. I mean my mom called me on Sunday

653
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: and I was going into day three of no sleep,

654
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: and she was like, how are you doing? And I

655
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: was like, Mom, I'm living the first line of my obituary. UM.

656
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: But I said it more for like shock value then

657
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: because I actually believed it, and in retrospect it might

658
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: have been true. Um. I just wasn't thinking about it

659
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: in that way. Like we came out with a ton

660
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: of lawsuits on our hands and you filed right. So

661
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: the travel band came down. It was signed at four

662
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: thirty pm on Friday, and we were tracking people coming in.

663
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: So we had clients who are coming in and one

664
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: of them was a man named Hamid Darwish who had

665
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: worked for us Forces in a rock on a Ford

666
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: Operating base for ten and a half years, which is

667
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: relevant for a number of reasons, one of which is

668
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: that to work on a on a FOB you need

669
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: to get a military grade level security clearance every six months.

670
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: So Hamid had had twenty one military grade level security checks.

671
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: There had been multiple attempts on his life, he had

672
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: young kids. Um, he was given this visa through a

673
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: program that Senators Kane and Kennedy had created in Congress

674
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: to try to protect those who would put their lives

675
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: on the line to assist our military, which I think

676
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: if we don't implement well, we're going to have trouble

677
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: finding allies in the future. And he showed up here

678
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: and he was handcuffed and locked in a room, and

679
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: they let out his wife and kids and they came

680
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: out crying and they we have their lawyer and their

681
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: law students waiting for them, and they said, you know,

682
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: Hamid is locked in a room and there's a bunch

683
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: of other people in the room with them, and we

684
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. So Um, I called a

685
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: friend of mine from law school, and because I'm not

686
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: a litigator, and I was like, what do we file um,

687
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: and he was like, we need to file a habeas petition.

688
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: Habeas corpus literally means like produced the body. Yeah, it's

689
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: it's it's what says that you get like some amount

690
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: of trial if you're held in Guantanamo, Like the US

691
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: can't turn airports into a black site and detain anyone

692
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: from a Muslim country who looks brown. You have to

693
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: have a hearing in front of a judge. And so

694
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: my friend Justin Cox said, you know, we should file

695
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: a habeas corpus lawsuit, which was brilliant it and now

696
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: he works for I WRAP, which only took me like

697
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: a year and a half to effectually. Then we called

698
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: our former mentor from me A law school, Mike Wishney,

699
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: who said, let's make it a class action, which meant like,

700
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: let's file a habeas petition on behalf of anyone who

701
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 1: might be detained by the government anywhere in the country.

702
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: And then we looped in the Immigrants Rights Project, the

703
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: a c l U, the National Immigration Law Center, and

704
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: then everyone stayed up all night so that we could

705
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: get the thing drafted, it on file by five o'clock

706
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 1: in the morning, because we wanted it filed before any

707
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: international flights could take off because we didn't want them

708
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: to be able to deport anybody. And we were granted

709
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: a hearing that night in Brooklyn at seven thirty and

710
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: legal learned from the a c l U argued it

711
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: and Lee is like a ringer, just like if you

712
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: ever have an argument about due process and immigration and

713
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: you can get Lee to argue it for you, like

714
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: you should. You should definitely do that. Uh. You should

715
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: make sure he's sober um, but if he's not, he'll

716
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: still win. He's well, we called him, We literally called him,

717
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: and we were like, Lee, what are you doing right now?

718
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm in a bar. What's going on? We're like,

719
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: we need you to go to Brooklyn and argue this

720
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: case right there. And he won. Uh, and so we

721
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: want to eat thirty and the judge said everyone has

722
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: to be released. And the Customs and Border Protection officials

723
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: of the airport didn't believe us that we had won

724
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: this court decision. So Omar Jodwat from the a c

725
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: l U tweeted out a picture of the court order.

726
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: So you had lawyers at airports all over the country,

727
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: like running around showing customs officials the photo of Omer's

728
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: Twitter feed on their phones and they obeyed that Twitter post.

729
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: At JFK, we literally got a plane turned around on

730
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: the runway and they were trying to deport an Irani

731
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: and Fulbright student to Ukraine of all places. And she

732
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: was on the plane and she was on the phone

733
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: with us, and we were trying to decide, like should

734
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: we have her stand up and make a fuss and

735
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: get thrown off the plane? And then we're like, no,

736
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: we shouldn't do that because she'll lose her visa if

737
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: she does that. Like, yeah, but when you get the

738
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: woman off the plane, when you argue the case and

739
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: you win the case and he gets off the bar

740
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: stool and you have the Twitter picture, there's like a

741
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: great movie. Do you ever meet some of these people

742
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: whose lives you've affected, our lives you've changed, Oh, for sure.

743
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: And I'm still in touch with some of them, and

744
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: we you know, when we have events, we try to

745
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: have clients come speak at the events because I think

746
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: it's really important that we're not speaking for people. But

747
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: we also have a lot of clients who don't want

748
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: to stay in touch. You know. I think a typical

749
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: symptom of of going through something really traumatic is to

750
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: want to just like put it all behind you. And

751
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: we're very tied up in that trauma, like where what

752
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: happened before? Right, and once you're here, you don't want

753
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: to deal with what happened before. Um, So some people

754
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch and some people don't. And

755
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't force it. Well even for

756
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: people who the immigration issue is uh, some of that's

757
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: not in the forefront. The number one issue is the

758
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: economy and their paychecks. The number two is healthcare. That

759
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: this ripping children away from their parents changed everything. I mean,

760
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: this becomes the image of the most heinous. What was

761
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: your response to that? I mean, I think your organization

762
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: have any role in that. We actually want a big

763
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: lawsuit on behalf of two thousand, seven hundred unaccompanied kids

764
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: in Central America who are trying to reunite with a

765
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: parent in the United States. But you know, we don't

766
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: have offices on the border. I mean, I took a

767
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: lot of hope from that, actually, which I know is strange,

768
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: but I think this is the bottom that we hit.

769
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: We made at the bottom, right, it didn't go further.

770
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: You know. The thing that was amazing about airport weekend.

771
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: Is that like we organized the lawyers, but nobody organized

772
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: the protesters. Totally spontaneous, thousands of Americans went out and

773
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: freezing shitty January weather to just be like this is

774
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: not cool. The executive order was rescinded before the lawsuit.

775
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: The lawsuit we once said that they can't hold people.

776
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: But the one that we won right away wasn't about

777
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: sort of the legality of the order on its face.

778
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: It was the public pressure that got the administration to

779
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: rescind the executive order and the so called like chaos

780
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: at the airports, which I will forever be proud of.

781
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: And I the same thing happened with the family separation

782
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 1: policy on the border. There were plenty of lawsuits about it,

783
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: you know the lawsuits. Ultimately we're victorious. Congress like fucked around.

784
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: It didn't end up doing anything. Um what got it

785
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: to stop was just like the number of people who

786
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: who stood up and said like this is not okay,

787
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: the number of journalists who refused to stop reporting on it. Ultimately,

788
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: it was just straight up public pressure that caused the

789
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: administration to rescind the policy. And it hasn't been totally rescinded. Right,

790
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: they're still separating kids from families. Like, it's not a

791
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: perfect solution, but as you watch, like so many of

792
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 1: the sort of systems to protect democracy and the rule

793
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: of law be dismantled, it does give me hope that

794
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: when something that agreed just happens, people are still willing

795
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: to stand up and say like, this is an American

796
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: and that when they do, it means something. Um in

797
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: your mind, I'm assuming that you're capable of citing a

798
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: couple examples if you're willing. Are there any heroes in

799
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 1: the Senator of the House on this issue who you

800
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: think get it right about this issue? Senator McCain was

801
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: amazing on this issue. He was amazing on refugee issues.

802
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? Because I think if

803
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: you have served in the military overseas, you understand how

804
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: important it is for our foreign policy to have a

805
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: humanitarian component. You understand that if the US wants to

806
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: be taken seriously as an enforcer of national security, that

807
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: that can't just be a stick, that that it needs

808
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: to have a carrot. Also, that we need to take

809
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: responsibility for sort of the peaceful side of national security issues.

810
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: And I think he understood that deeply. Senator Shaheen has

811
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: been great for us on these issues. Um, I'm looking

812
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: forward to, you know, the new Senate and the new

813
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: House and seeing what we can do with them. And

814
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: I hope that I hope that there are more heroes

815
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: of the six and a half million that comprises your

816
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: current budget or roughly, that most of that money comes

817
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: from where it's individuals, foundations and corporate We do not

818
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: take government funding. Describe your relationship with the promptin's substitute grandparents. Really. Yeah,

819
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: I have been very generous too. I mean they're just lovely,

820
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: Like Charles is just hilarious and sassy and has me

821
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: to his house and it is just like really supportive

822
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: and support Yeah, but they've become family. And I don't

823
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 1: know as media and savvy with social media at all

824
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: important to you or not it is important. I think

825
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: it's tricky right now because I think earned media doesn't

826
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: have the impact that it did a couple of years ago.

827
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: I think, um, there's so much crazy stuff happening all

828
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: the time that you just when you get a story

829
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: in the New York Times, it just doesn't mean what

830
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: it used to mean, and it doesn't stick the way

831
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: you used to stick. And you also you have an

832
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: administration that doesn't care when The New York Times says something.

833
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: One thing that I've become really interested in and I

834
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: have a project that I've been working on for a while,

835
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 1: UM is sort of using popular culture. UM, and how

836
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: can you sort of you know, like people maybe won't

837
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: read New York Times articles or won't register them, but

838
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: like they'll binge watch for fourteen hours like the newest

839
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: season of whatever. UM Sola Mirror. Yeah, I can't watch

840
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: Black Mirror because it freaks me out too much. But

841
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, But so if you can get like a

842
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 1: narrative about a more positive or more useful narrative about

843
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: immigrants or refugees into a pop culture format, I think

844
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: that has a lot of promises, a way to try

845
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: to you know, change hearts in minds. What's next for

846
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: you book? No, you're not interested in that. You have

847
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: time to reflect. I reflect in a very like neurotic, anxious,

848
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: obsessive way that does not lend itself well to like

849
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: overarching narrative. But I think with people like you get

850
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: things done. Yeah. I got some offers to write books,

851
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, when you know so and

852
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: so activists wrote a book like how did they do it?

853
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, they took book leaf And I

854
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 1: was like, that's the last thing I'm gonna do right now.

855
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: Let's just be like, oh, well, I mean, I think

856
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: attention to any issue ebbs and flows, right. Like, we

857
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: definitely had our fifteen minutes around airport weekend. We were

858
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: aware at the time time that it was fifteen minutes,

859
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: and so we approached it really strategically and said, you know,

860
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: what can we keep from this, Like what can we

861
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: hang on to that we can continue to use in

862
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: the future. And and I'm continuing to sort of take

863
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: that approach of just you know, with the MacArthur like

864
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: that's amazing. I feel like it adds a lot of

865
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: pressure on me to make sure I'm leveraging it for

866
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: the work as much as possible. Pay yourself very much money.

867
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: Well now I don't have to, thankfully, thanks MacArthur. No

868
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: I I do, okay, it's not like thirty rock money.

869
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: Um No. I want to keep fighting this fight. I

870
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: have a ton of ideas for what should be next,

871
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: and the other staff at Arabe has a bunch of ideas,

872
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: and we've got you know, two years ago we were

873
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: a two million dollar organization, So we've grown pretty fast,

874
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: and we're trying to manage that growth in a way

875
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: where the you know, quality of our work is still high,

876
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: in our organizational culture is still good, but also we're

877
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: aggressively growing to fight these problems. And you know, so

878
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: like where is like if Hillary had been elected, we

879
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 1: would be making a big play around climate refugees because

880
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: to me, that's like the single biggest thing that we

881
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: have to contend with, right Like, the first major manifestation

882
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: of climate change is going to be and is already

883
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: like the displacement of large numbers of people, and we

884
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: have no no legal or systematic regime whatsoever to deal

885
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: with that anywhere. I think I work a little better

886
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: in a bunker mentality, Like getting back to your press,

887
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: I don't like pressure, but I've I've process resistance is

888
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: you know, creative resistance is a better fit for me

889
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: than like scaling up widgets. You're one of those people

890
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 1: who are like, you know, where would the world be

891
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 1: without you? I mean that quieter that was tireless refugee

892
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: activist and could have been stand up comic Becca Heller

893
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: her organization once again is the International Refugee Assistance Project

894
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: at Refugee rights dot org. I'm a like Baldwin and

895
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: you're listening to here's the Thing and