1 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Welcome back to cutting the distance. My new found obsession 2 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: maybe whitetailed deer. Please don't tell my wife I need 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: another obsession. Um like nothing else, but it was pretty 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: fun and animal. I've always joked about hunting. When I 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: turned seven years old and can no longer chase meal deer, blacktails, 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: or elk around, so I've I've started to dig up 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: all the information that's out there because that's kind of 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: where all my hunting starts. I want to know about 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: the animal before I go out there. And there's one 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: name that always seems to come up as an expert 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: on whitetail biology, does a ton of research on him, 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: Dr Bronson Strickland. He's a professor a Wildlife management in 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: Mississippi State University. He's a co director of m s 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: US Deer Lab and the co host of Deer University podcast. 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: And I brought him on today to kind of pick 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: his brain a little bit see how we can use 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: these bigger bucks, their biology, their instincts against them in 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: the fold. So welcome to the show. Dr Scriptling, Hey 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: glad to be here. Thanks so much for having me. 20 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: Were you able to get out in the woods is 21 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: here and hunt it all or just just well, it's 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: really just beginning here. I mean we a gun season 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: just began, and uh, and it's finally cooling down. You 24 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: know what, when I was younger, even if it was 25 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: ninety degrees during both season, I would go out of obligation. 26 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: The the older I get, though, I like to wait 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: for for cold weather. So it's finally getting right down here, perfect. 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: I always forget down in the southeast. You guys ruts 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: a little bit later. Your seasons are a little bit later, 30 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: So that makes a ton of sense. I know, I 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: was in Kansas, um, you know, ten days ago and 32 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: the cold snap had hit there. We were in the 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, the single digits, you know, low low teens 34 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of that, and uh, you know the 35 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: rut was was cranking along pretty good there between the 36 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: tenth and about the fifteenth. UM. So yeah, I guess 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: your your season still um coming up. But I'm gonna 38 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: ask you to just kind of kick off the podcast, 39 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: give us a quick rundown on kind of your history, um, 40 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: and how you got to where you are now to 41 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: be respected is as you know, as knowledgeable as you're 42 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: in white tails, and what's led you to this point, Well, Uh, 43 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: I'm really lucky. I'm just really really lucky that I 44 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: grew up in a place and time to where being 45 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: a white tail researcher and a biologists and outreach specialist 46 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: is a job. And so uh got got my degrees 47 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: uh at University of Georgia, Texas A and m Kingsville 48 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: and Mississippi State, and it's all focused on wildlife management 49 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: and specifically white tailed deer. And then UH lucky again 50 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: that I could get a job uh here at Mississippi 51 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: State where I could focus keep focusing on uh deer 52 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: research and then the outreach component of that, and that 53 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 1: is basically just taking all the research that we do 54 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: and putting it out in various forms articles, presentations, books, podcasts, 55 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: et cetera. So that's that's kind of the heart of 56 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: what I do. Thanks for that, Rundown. And as a 57 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: civil engineer myself, I love when you can take research, 58 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: you can take data and apply that to what I've 59 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: seen in the field. You know, they were I had 60 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: a great professor um going through school where it's like 61 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: You're gonna teach you everything that's in these books, the theory, 62 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: the science, but then to go out and proof that 63 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: research and data on the ground, you know, and in 64 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: this instance to ultimately Harvard you know, grow bigger bucks, 65 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: find bigger bucks, understand bigger bucks. You know, the same 66 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: thing on the engineering side. So as an engineer, this 67 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: stuff really gets me when you're able to add facts, data, 68 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: research to what we're trying to do. UM, I really 69 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: I really like this stuff. So UM yeah, I appreciate 70 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: having you on. So, like every Cutting the Distance podcast, 71 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna feeld a few questions UM from you the listeners, 72 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: And if you have a question of your own to submit, 73 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: please email us at ct D at Phelps game Calls 74 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: dot com or send us a message on social media email. UM. Well, 75 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: we'll do our best either have me or in this 76 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: case UM our expert guests answer these questions, because I'm 77 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: not quite um versus enough on these white tailed there 78 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: yet to answer these questions. So our first question for you, Bronson, 79 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: at what age should you start managing your bucks? Um? 80 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: And by that I mean you know, we have identified 81 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,839 Speaker 1: the age, we've identified what they've got on their head. 82 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: What's the right time to make a good decision that 83 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: that deer is not ready to be taken out of 84 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: the herd um if you listen to any of of 85 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: our media or read any of our our articles. UH. 86 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: My colleague and friends, Steve Demeris, he's also co director 87 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: of the Deer Lab. We say it depends probably more 88 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: than any little phrase, and essentially that means context. You 89 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: gotta put some contexts and some boundaries on it. Um. 90 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: But if we were going to say, on the average, uh, 91 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: I think for most people in most places is at 92 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: three and a half. At three and a half years 93 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: of age, depending on where you're at, a buck is 94 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: showing sixty too, sometimes seventy or greater percent of what 95 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: he's going to be at maturity. And so three and 96 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: a half is a good age because we now have 97 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: a reliable predictor of what he's gonna be a couple 98 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: of years down the road. Simultaneously, it takes a few 99 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: years to forgive some of the issues that may have 100 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: happened to the buck's mother when it was a fawn 101 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: or while it was a yearling, wasn't born late, wasn't 102 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: born in a drought year, etcetera, etcetera. It takes a 103 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: couple of years to grow out of that circumstance. The 104 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: buck was born into and so just very much in general, 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: I would say three and a half would be the 106 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: single most important age where you make a decision of, uh, 107 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: do I want to harvest this buck? I don't think 108 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: it has a lot of potential? Or am I going 109 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: to make sure I spare this buck and we protect 110 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: this buck because he is definitely demonstrating he has a 111 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: lot of potential to be trophy class at maturity. That 112 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: makes a ton of sense. And to piggyback onto that 113 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: question a little bit of my own, do environmental factors 114 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: start to playing? Like as a land manager is is 115 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: somebody trying to manage the herd? Um? You know, we 116 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: were in as I keep referring back to my one 117 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: and only trip in Kansas, they were coming off of 118 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: a pretty bad drought and and that was going through 119 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: everybody's mind. Um, you know, times were a little bit 120 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: shorter things. You know, they had saw a dear you know, 121 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: five single digit percentage increase in horns you know on 122 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: their head. Um, do you take that into effect as 123 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: you're looking at that, like if you get a good, 124 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: good moisture here in the drought and they're able to 125 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,119 Speaker 1: get the minerals, you know, back out of the ground 126 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: and the water sources whatever. Um, you know that maybe 127 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: are you are you gonna let that play in? And 128 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: maybe you know, should we should we hold off on 129 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: managing those dear knowing that they may have a big rebound, 130 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: maybe they'll come back bigger because of a drought situation 131 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: or you know, they also were talking about their their 132 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: beans didn't come up, you know, and so they missed 133 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: uh you know, a quarter or their their typical food source. 134 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: UM that fattens them up. Is that going to play 135 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: into too when you're gonna harvest or maybe give them 136 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: that extra year. Yeah, and let's say that's gonna be 137 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: man infested in two ways. It's it's going to affect 138 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: the deer on the hoof that year. So if you're 139 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: talking about drought or beings, you're talking about something during 140 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: the summer during the antler growth period, and it is 141 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: going to influence uh their maximum antler size uh when 142 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: when they harden out shed their velvet that that fall. Uh. 143 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: It's also going to influence uh buck fawns as well. 144 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: And so that again that early environment they're into can 145 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: put them on a different trajectory of growth for several years. 146 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: In their life, so two different ways. But I guess Jason, 147 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: one way you have to think about that too is 148 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: how big is big enough? And so you always have 149 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: to think about that opportunity of you know, hey, my 150 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: goal is a one eighty or one seventy or one ninety, 151 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: whatever it is. I have this buck in front of 152 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: me at twenty five yards bow in my hand, and 153 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: he's twenty inches less than what he could be, but 154 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: I have the opportunity right now for for a lethal shot. 155 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: So you got to play the probability, the odds. Yeah, 156 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: you're playing that game, and you know at that point, yeah, 157 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: he's twenty inches less, but he's still got smarter to 158 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: dear that was you know, if that's what you're trying 159 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: to do, you're out smart at him. He's still the 160 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: same deer regardless of what's on his head, and um, 161 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: you know that well. And you have to factor in 162 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: a risk that there is no guarantee that he's going 163 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: to be around next year. There's a lot of other 164 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: non hunting mortality sources that could take him. So you're 165 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: rolling the dice when you let him go. And now 166 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna you may not have an answer for this, 167 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: but you you kind of um, you know, we have 168 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of winter kill out here out west, you know, 169 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 1: big snows, and you have age classes of deer missing. 170 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: What you just touched on there a little bit is 171 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: in a drought year, do people manage to the point 172 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: knowing that their bucks at you know that in four 173 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: and a half years or four years are going to 174 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: have those bucks may not have the potential I mean, 175 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: are people managing to that level that that that buck 176 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: or that buck fallen was born during a drought his 177 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: genetic potential or not it wouldn't be genetic his potential 178 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: because of the mom's health is now going to be 179 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: lessened in four years when I want to hunt, you know, 180 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: or five years and I want to hunt a buck 181 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: of that age class. Uh, probably not any I think 182 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: that's more of a biologist look at it. When when 183 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: they're have an aggregation of data at a very large scale, 184 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: you can kind of explain from year to year. Uh, 185 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: you know what, what proportion of the very the annual 186 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: variation and average antler size is explained by the events 187 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: this year and what can we go back to the 188 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: year of birth and you just kind of partition that 189 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: there's probably Jason not that many in the southeast that 190 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: would take take that into account. But but if you 191 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: go to a situation like like in South Texas. In 192 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: South Texas, it may not be looking at hey, we 193 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: probably have antlers or five percent less than they would 194 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: have been. It's that you literally have cohorts of dear missing, 195 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: much like what you described out west with winter kill, 196 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: and so you you you may have two or three 197 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: years where there was no cohort of bucks coming through 198 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, the population, and so that that's probably the 199 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: biggest effect. I see, that makes sense. Um, yeah, this 200 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: is this is playing a big impact on my life. 201 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: Um for a sheep hunt right now, I've got planned 202 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: for twenty four is they had you know, some bad winners. Um, 203 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: you know three or four years ago, I was planning 204 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: on the twenty four and there's a band of sheep missing. Well, 205 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: when you're going sheep hunting, you need a certain age, 206 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: and there is a complete band miss. So you know, 207 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: I've I've got way more familiar with um, you know 208 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: years and bad years. But um, yeah, we'll roll into 209 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: this next question from our listeners. Um, everyone is interested 210 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 1: in what food the plant during that deer season, you 211 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: know that September, October, November, you know even in December 212 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: when you're gonna be hunting them. What can you bring 213 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: that dear? Um? You know, in front of your stand, 214 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: in front of your blind But what should hunters really 215 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: be looking at to improve the overall health of the herd? 216 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: And by that I mean you're round food like and 217 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: if it makes it easier, maybe break it down by 218 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: season like we know they're they're you know, enzymes change 219 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: their ability to break down certain foods change. Um, what 220 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: what's like an ideal feeding plan or a crop plan? 221 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: Look like, well, I'm gonna give you my typical speech here. Um. 222 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: So if it sounds a little scripted, it's because I've 223 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: said it before many many times. Uh what what? What 224 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: we preach because we know it works, is that the 225 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: focus should be on habitat management. The focus should be 226 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: on habitat and the number of deer utilizing that habitat. 227 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: So your density has to be appropriate. Well, once you 228 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: address that, you move into you move into habitat that encourages, promotes, 229 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: facilitates the growth of the technical term for us is 230 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: called a forbe f O r B, which is just 231 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: a broad leaf plant, a non grass or basis plant 232 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: that is the majority of the dear diet. And when 233 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: you produce that and the diversity of all those forbes 234 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: on the landscape that, by the way, are very drought tolerant, 235 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: so you see a lot of resilience in your habitat 236 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: and deer herd when you provide the naturally a ring 237 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: foods that that they want to eat. So now let's 238 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: let's take care of that, or or say we have 239 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: taken care of that, now we move into we say 240 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: food plots. I like to call them supplemental food plots 241 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: because they should supplement that the habitat. And this is 242 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: going to vary from region to region and latitude and etcetera. 243 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: But but the bottom line is you gotta get you 244 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: gotta grow plants that grow in your environment, whether it 245 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: be you have you have a really wet area, you 246 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: have a really dry area of cold, etcetera. Soil types 247 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: all that find the group of plants that grows really well. 248 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: And typically it comes down to this, You're gonna be 249 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: able to find one of several cereal grains, wheat, oats, ryot, etcetera. 250 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: They typically grow well everywhere couple that with some type 251 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: of clover, and again that depends on where yet cloth 252 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: do you love them? And there's always a clover that 253 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: works really well. And then also a brassica typically some 254 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: type of brassica's well. And when you mix those together 255 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 1: literally either in a mix within the plot or spread 256 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: them out in different plots that I've never seen a 257 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: case where that didn't work well. That they grow well. 258 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: It attracts dear high nutrition. It's just win win win. Yeah, 259 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,839 Speaker 1: And and that makes a ton of sense as a 260 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: as a good mixture. And I like the idea of 261 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: supplemental It's like they should have what they need on 262 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: the ground and then your plot should just add to 263 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: that nutrition, add to that. Um and then you know, 264 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: for hunting purposes, maybe drawn to that area, you know 265 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: during the season. Um, because I was driving around, you know, 266 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: this area of Kansas and kind of scratching my head 267 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: because you would have a tunered acre, you know, tillable 268 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: filled with hedgerows. There were deer in that. And then 269 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: you'd go to my buddies place that was timber with 270 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: you know, ten percent food plots there were deer in that. 271 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: You'd have his neighbor that didn't do any management to 272 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: their land, but maybe an old CRP field and there 273 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: were deer in that, and I'm like, well, maybe these combine, 274 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: these deer use all of them. But it's three different 275 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: scenarios with with properties stacked together and they all had 276 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: deer on them, and so I'm like, well, maybe there 277 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: isn't a a magic solution, like as long as they 278 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: have enough of what they need there, you're gonna hold 279 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: deer and you're gonna you're gonna keep them. I didn't, 280 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure there are there's probably not the 281 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: magic answer, but there's probably things that they prefer or 282 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: things that will you know, keep those deer healthier, going 283 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: a little bit you know, bigger on your land. So 284 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: it's just one of those things where to see three 285 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: you know, different landscapes all whold deer um, you know. Yeah, 286 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: and then you've got another way you can kind of 287 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: qualify that as well. It might have been on one 288 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: of the properties you described where uh, it may not 289 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: have been managed as well, and there was just an 290 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: old CRP field for for one thing, deer are gonna 291 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: eat what is available to them, So you could take 292 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: the deer and move them to a different property. They 293 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: may not eat the forage they were eating on the 294 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: first property, but it's the only thing palatable they had 295 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: available to them as well. So they'll make they'll make 296 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: do with what they've got. Well they have to, Yeah, 297 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: they have to make do. So so I guess I'm 298 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: out west. We can see meal deer. You go three 299 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: or four miles a day. But these white tail they 300 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: don't have that home range. They're gonna stick to a 301 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: little bit tighter range. They're gonna make you know, like 302 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: you said, they have to make do with what they've got. 303 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: That's that's right, that's right, and we you know, uh, 304 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: they can definitely move along ways. But the way generally 305 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: there's always exceptions, but but generally that they have seasonal 306 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: home ranges and and generally that's gonna be you know, 307 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: depending on buck or dough age, etcetera. You know, about 308 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: a thousand acres, some five hundred, some twenty hundred. But yeah, 309 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: so it's like within that home range. Well then that 310 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: season they know what is on the landscape and is 311 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: available to them, and they're gonna pick the best. Got 312 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: We'll talk about it a little bit um. You know, 313 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: some of the research I've read. I can't remember if 314 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: you specifically, you know, but some deer moved nine hundred 315 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: yards and then some deer you know up thet nd 316 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: yards during the rut, and I'm like, shoot, I've had 317 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: meal deer like blow through that you know, in in 318 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: a in the evening or or a night, so, um, 319 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: a little bit different. But UM, I appreciate you answering 320 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: those user questions. Once again, if you have questions of 321 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: your own, please submit those questions to C. T. D 322 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: at Phelps game Calls dot com and we'll do our 323 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: best to either have myself or one of our guests 324 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: answer those. So now we're gonna jump into some of 325 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: my personal questions I have, and I'm gonna apologize ahead 326 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: of you, you know, to you Dr Strickland and all 327 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: of our listeners. These are gonna jump around, but these 328 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: are like my personal questions, things that you know, as 329 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a tree stand trying to relate what 330 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: i know about hunting, what I know about um animals, 331 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: and just some of the stuff that goes through um, 332 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: you know, some of the stuff we've heard. So I'm 333 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: gonna kind of just go through this list of questions 334 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: and see what you got for answers. Um. I was 335 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: mentioned to the previous of the podcast kind of you know, 336 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: I I get things stuck in my head from what 337 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: I've experienced, and um, this first one it kind of 338 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: piggybacks on some conversations I had with Kevin monteth On. Uh. 339 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: I was talking to Steve Ronnella about this when we 340 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: were on Accoused Deer Hunt, and I'm like, this, it 341 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense from what I've seen and and um. 342 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: But but my question will be how much of a 343 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: buck's potential is genetic? How much is that mother's health 344 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: during pregnancy, the available nutrition both food and minerals, environmental conditions, 345 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: et cetera. Um, And I know they all it probably varies. 346 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: It's determined. But if you if you had to kind 347 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: of break those out, what would you say or the 348 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: factors that that give you that potential of you know 349 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: that buck has the ability to get to two inches, 350 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: but environmental effects it Um. I know it's a big 351 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: loaded question, but if you can try to break that 352 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: down for us, Yeah, well I'll certainly try. Yeah. And 353 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: and you know a word we use in the science fields, 354 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: as you know, we we think about variation and partitioning. 355 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: How how how do we slice up the pie? And 356 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: you know, we we can and there's a lot of 357 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: different ways to look at this, but we we we 358 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: can start with what what's heritability? What's the heritability of 359 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: antler characteristics from father to son, etcetera. And you know 360 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: that that can be twenty or thirty percent um. We know, 361 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: of course the mother is half of the equation. So 362 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: you can have a father with Boone and Crockett antlers 363 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: and a mother that sire's offspring that is half that 364 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: and we're gonna get something in the middle. And that's 365 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: what makes you know, the culling for genetics and so 366 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: forth that people try to do is you know, I 367 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: shot that buck to get it out of the gene pool. 368 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: Uh that that's why that doesn't work. It's because you 369 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: can make no selection with the female. So so there 370 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: is a baseline genetic component of of course, the example 371 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: you gave is two of antler. Well, yeah, that that 372 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: that buck has genes that are coding for that amount 373 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: of antler growth. But that antler growth is influence and 374 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: either suppressed or enhanced by the environment, but by its food. 375 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: Is it dealing with a disease issue. You know, all 376 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: those things are very influential and so um, I guess Jason, 377 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: the way we think about it is we we probably 378 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: say half and half is there's a lot of this 379 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: about half of it and that's buck and the you know, 380 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the mom and the and the father, etcetera. But then 381 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: the other half is is the nutrition available to the 382 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: deer that year. And you mentioned Kevin Monte something uh 383 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: he did when he was a graduate student. Something we've 384 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: done at the m s U. Deer Lab is demonstrating 385 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: the influence of what what we call the intergenerational you know, 386 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: generation after generation after generation of nutrition and and that 387 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: is also what is influencing. The term is epigenetics, but 388 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: that is also is an organism. In this case, a 389 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: deer may have the genes for a hundred and eighty 390 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: inches of antler, but because the mother was a experiencing 391 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: nutritional or environmental stress while this little buck fall and 392 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: wasn't in womb um her her signals are basically telling 393 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: the fetus or the genes that you don't need to 394 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: express yourself fully, and so that buck will never reach 395 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,479 Speaker 1: its full potential because of these cues in the uterine 396 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: environment of its mother are suppressing the expression of those genes. 397 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: And I hope I didn't go off off the rails 398 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: that they're too complicated. But it is a complicated question. Yeah, no, 399 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: And and I'm super interested in you know, It's like 400 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: I don't want to say we're out there chasing you know, horns, 401 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: but we're chasing mature deer. And it's one of those 402 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: things that I always try to wrap my head around, 403 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: like what what is the genetic potential? Like are we 404 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: shooting a deer before a genetic potential? Could he ever 405 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: got bigger? Um? So I'm gonna I'm gonna roll some 406 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: things by in and you can either correct me or 407 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, maybe agree with them. So as a buck, 408 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: he's got a genetic potential and is for my understanding, 409 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: like years one, you three, he grows that skeleton out, 410 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: he's in that he's growing, and then years three to five, 411 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: three to four and a half, he's typically trying to 412 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: add muscle onto that skeleton become the biggest, baddest buck, 413 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: which genetically yah um ensures that he'll have his chance 414 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: to breed, right, That's why he's putting on muscle, he's 415 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: packing on muscle that gives him the ability, um, you know, 416 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: in the pecking order to be able to breed, and 417 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: so are we going to always experience and so they're 418 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: using energy, they're using effort, they're using fat stores, they're 419 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: using uh, you know, I guess energy for lack of 420 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: a better word, to grow skeleton, to grow bone either 421 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: in their body, or they're using it to grow muscle 422 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: on their body to pack on muscle. And then are 423 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: we always gonna get that buck's best potential? Now? You know, 424 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: I guess let's assume environmental conditions have been the same 425 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: every year he's been alive, so we can take that out, 426 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: no drafts, no, you know, the food has been the same. 427 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: Are we typically always gonna get their best horn growth 428 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: you know six and a half and seven and a 429 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: half years old? Or can that very as well? Like 430 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: or you know, I use the example of you know, 431 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: your buddy Dawn's you know, Don Higgins is Buck how 432 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: that was over two of the three year old? Like 433 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: that Buck was just destined to be a giant. But 434 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to knock on it because the year 435 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: he let it go to the year he shot it, 436 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: but it didn't grow percentage wise much more than it 437 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: was less than ten percent between three and four. You know, Um, 438 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: how do you guys, how do how does the research 439 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: support that? Like? Are we you know? Is there is 440 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: there a correlation that you're gonna get your best horn 441 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: growth at six and a half or seven and a half. Yeah, 442 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: And and I gotta qualify here. What we always have 443 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: to say is that that we deal with the averages, 444 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: what we deal with the population response, and not individuals, 445 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: because individuals do wacky things, just like human beings. But 446 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: but yeah, on on the average, um, five, six, seven 447 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: is gonna be the point. And this is I guess 448 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: the point I'd make Jason. Not not that they're reaching 449 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: their peak and then soon after there's gonna be a decline. 450 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: It's for they reach their maximum. That is the plateau 451 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: for many many years to come. Um. Now, there are 452 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: definitely some individual dear, and I think this happens more 453 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: often in the Midwest, and even in Mississippi and our 454 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 1: agg regions versus our forested regions, you will see them 455 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: maximizing their antler size about a year earlier than you will. 456 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: So in other words, in our southern part of our state, 457 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: you need to you need to let them get six 458 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: to seven. And in our agg region of the state, 459 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: the delta region, probably four or five is plenty sufficient. 460 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: But the thing that's interesting to me, Jason, is that, 461 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: and I can say this because you qualified earlier. Let's 462 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: take nutrition, the stability, the availability, nutrition of the equation. 463 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: If you're in our deer research facilities, Uh, basically you 464 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: will have from five to six until nine or ten 465 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: and to where antler size hardly decreases at all. And 466 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 1: so you've come four or five year window where they maximize. 467 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: So you hold that it's it's not a peak, it's 468 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: a plateau up there. And then one thing you see 469 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: is you know, maybe some kicker shorter times, longer times, 470 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: no kickers. They clean up, they add on, but they 471 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: typically stay. You know, like you said, um, you know 472 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: they say about the same amount of inches there, you know, 473 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: plus your minus a few percentage, but change configurations a 474 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: little bit, add mass, lose length. Um, you know, the 475 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: combinations there. And that's one of those things that's very 476 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: visible that doesn't get as much credit on Boone and 477 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: Crockett's score is the mass and specifically the mass and 478 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: the times. You know, there's no measurement for the circumference 479 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: of the time. But man, that really looks impressive when 480 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: you get a six or seven year old old buck. 481 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: And then also the character points, the splits, the drops 482 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Yeah, you see that at maturity 483 00:24:46,920 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: more often I've heard things, you know, a spike is 484 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: always a spike, which kind of blows my mind, especially 485 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: growing up here in the Blacktail Woods, because it just 486 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: in my opinion, doesn't hold true. But you know that 487 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: that same deer talking about I think I called it 488 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: how earlier Mail or whatever the name of that deer was. 489 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: You know, Dawn had video of it, is a one 490 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: and a half year old and he's already a ten 491 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: point And that kind of blew my mind because around 492 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: here it's like, you're a spike at a year and 493 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: a half, you're a small two point at two and 494 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: a half. Um, how much can we tell from a 495 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: deer at one and a half years old? Like, is 496 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: that starting to show genetic potential or I mean obviously 497 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: in this case it was, But can that same you 498 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: know spike with eye guards that's running around on a 499 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: on a piece of property blossom out to be a 500 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: great you know, dear horn wise, you know, at four 501 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: and a half, five and a half. I think the 502 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: safe way to deal with that is that if he 503 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: is really big as a yearling, I would say ninety 504 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of the time, he's gonna be 505 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: a monster when he when he's mature. But you can't 506 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: say just because it has below average or a spike 507 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: or a fork or whatever at a yearling, that in 508 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: no way guarantees that you're not gonna have a one 509 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: fifty or greater buck at maturity. But but Jason, let 510 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: let me circle back around to UH, individuals versus population averages. 511 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: So even here at the deer lab, Harry Jacobson years ago, 512 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: our predecessor, he had a great example in the Southeast 513 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: where it was the uh, if you see a spike yearling, 514 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: it is always gonna be terrible. You need to shoot 515 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: every spike. Well, he had an example of a little 516 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: spike yearling that ended up growing over two. That was 517 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: an individual. But what we have shown is that on 518 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: the average, if if you have below average yearling antler 519 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: size versus above average yearling antler size, the above average 520 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: will at maturity be above average and the below average 521 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: at maturity will be below average. What you have to 522 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 1: decide is is blow average still a good enough buck 523 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: for you? In other words, I'm okay with the hundred 524 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: and twenty buck. That's okay for me. But but if 525 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: your sole purpose or goal objective is only want one 526 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: fifties or above, then the best bet you can make 527 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: is an above average year. Link is going to be that. 528 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: That makes a ton of sense. I mean, like you said, 529 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: you're just going with what you know. The average is 530 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: um and what typically will happen. You know that bucks 531 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: probably a little bit of an anomaly you know, in 532 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: the in the data, but it proves that it can happen. Um. 533 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: You know, so I know the place I was hunting, 534 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't manage it the one and a 535 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: half year old, as we talked earlier, they're managing more. 536 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: They're not even managing at the two and a half 537 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: year old. Um, you know, at three and a half 538 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: year old and you start to have six points or 539 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, small eight start to come out, that's when 540 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: he decides, you know that those bucks e to be 541 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: manager taken out. So that makes a ton of sense. Um, 542 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to managing does and coming from 543 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: out West, especially um, the black those that are in 544 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: my area southwest Washington. Now we we aren't near carrying capacity. 545 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: So my thought has always been those are the baby makers. 546 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: We don't manage does here. And then you hear about 547 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: people managing does you know, whether it's me watching uh 548 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: a white tail show on you know, on TV or 549 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: on YouTube, whatever it may be, and they're just you know, 550 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: laying out does And it never made sense to me 551 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: until you go out, you know, go back to the 552 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: Midwest and just see just how many deer or on 553 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: the landscape compared to what we have here, and it 554 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: starts to make a lot of sense. So my my 555 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: first question on this is, and I know you're gonna 556 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: you're I know how these are. I'm in the same boat, 557 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, when you're when you're doing you know, scientific 558 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: type stuff, and it's gonna depend on where you're at landscape, 559 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: food availability. But what is a typical good bucket door 560 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: ratio to maintain you know, good good heard health. Um, 561 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: Probably something like I mean, if you can achieve and 562 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: maintain one to one, then then that's fantastic. Um. It 563 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: probably also enables you to keep the population under control 564 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: more easily. If you can do that. But but we 565 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: commonly see fantastic properties where they have one point five 566 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: to two does per buck. Uh when when you start 567 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: getting above that, and that's a little bit of a misnomer, Jason, 568 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: is that you you hear and and read that a 569 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: lot that the sex ratio is just really out of 570 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: whack and there's tin does for every buck. Well that 571 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: that can only occur if you're looking at adults, not 572 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: including fawns, and at the end of the deer season, 573 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: because mother nature has a self correction built in there, 574 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: because all those does are gonna put fawns on the 575 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: ground and half of them are bucks. So numerically it's 576 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: really hard to maintain some five to one, six to one, 577 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: seven to one because it's a self correcting, you know 578 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: type system that makes a ton of sense. Um, yeah, 579 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: I guess my own concern is that, well, what if 580 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, you leave those dose on there, they get 581 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: bred and they're the ones to produce the next two buck. 582 00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: But also understand, like once again we're going back to averages. 583 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: You know, your best bet, you know that the research 584 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: probably shows if you can keep those those that doda 585 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: buck ratio you know, or buck the door ratio one 586 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: to one, one to two. Um, your bucks are gonna 587 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: be healthier, They're gonna be able to realize their potential 588 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: a little bit better. UM, you know. So for me, 589 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, I want as many deer on the ground 590 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: as possible, as long as the food supports them. But 591 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: I guess you know, rut, you know other things, Um, 592 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, uh, competitiveness for that ground, all that comes 593 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: into play and probably isn't that healthy, um, you know 594 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: for your herd. So nail on the head, Jason, Just 595 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: I just want to emphasize something you said. You said 596 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: a little clause there. The thing's important as long as 597 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: the habitat will support them. That that's the single most 598 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: important thing. What's the optimal density, etcetera. Well, it depends 599 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: on it is dear quality going to diminish incrementally as 600 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: the number of deer increases. And so if the deer 601 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: population increases and simultaneously deer quality increases, you've got too 602 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: many deer. You need to take some deer off. All right, 603 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: there's a that's a great segue. We were rolling right 604 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: into my next question, which once again you have to 605 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: preface all of this right because where you're at in 606 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: you know, southeast Mississippi. UM is going to be different 607 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: than what we're doing in the midwest, you know, Kansas, Iowa, Kentucky, Illinois, 608 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: whatever it may be. Um, let's just assume we're in 609 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: in the middle of Kansas. You know, we've got a 610 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: good mix, a well managed farm, you know, good at 611 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: good cover. Um. You know, we've hinged cut all of 612 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: our bottoms. We've got everything that a big white tail needs. 613 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: What's what's a carrying capacity? Because one of the things 614 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: we were going out there, you know, with our dough 615 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: tags and we were shooting the dos that that we 616 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: needed killed. But there was you know out here we 617 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: do you know, aerial studies, helicopter flights on the winter range. 618 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: What's the right number? Uh? What you know, what is 619 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: the carrying capacity on a on a well managed hundred acres? 620 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: And then how do we monitor that? As hunters are 621 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: good stewards of our form, what what's a good way 622 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: to to manage that and be somewhat scientific about it? UM? 623 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: So you you're you're right. I am gonna respond with 624 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: a you know, a contextual It depends and and I 625 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: don't really have a numerical response for you, because there 626 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: have been places I've I've been to and and people 627 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: express deer density differently depending on where you're at in 628 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: the country. If you're in the East, it's deer per 629 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 1: square a mile here, And in Texas and other places, 630 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: we use acres per acres perier. And I have been 631 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: to properties where they might have seven or eight acres 632 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: per deer and they are in superb condition. I've been 633 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: to other places where you might estimate at twenty acres 634 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: perier and the deer herd is in terrible condition. So 635 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: so it's all based on on habitat quality. So I'm 636 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: often asked, Jason, is you know, uh with without having 637 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: a lot of familiarity with the property, how many doose 638 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: do I need to kill? That's just kind of the 639 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: default the response in the southeast, how many do dose 640 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: who need to kill? And people probably get frustrated when 641 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: I say, I can't give you that number, but because 642 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what the habitat is telling me. And 643 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: and most importantly, and you said a moment ago, how 644 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: do we scientifically go about determining that? I don't think 645 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: you need to learn about population estimation techniques. I think 646 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: you need to learn to examine what you can learn 647 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: at the skinning shed after you harvest deer, look at 648 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: their condition, look at their body weight, and and make 649 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: it relative to what you have recorded over time and 650 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: what your neighbor is doing. That's how you determine how 651 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: many to kill. Yeah, and um, just you're what you 652 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: just hit on a point we'll talk about a little 653 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: bit later. Um. A matter of fact, it's it's right here. Uh. 654 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: You know, I was talking to my buddy Randy, who 655 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: owns these properties, and you know, I I showed some 656 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: interests and wanting to buy some Midwest property and he's like, 657 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: the main things like, don't worry about what you can 658 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: do with your property, Like pay very close attention to 659 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: what your four your four neighbors are doing, you know, 660 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: or whoever touches your piece of property. Um, because that's 661 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: gonna be the biggest thing, the biggest factor on on 662 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: uh on, you know, being able to keep big bucks 663 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: on your property, not letting them you know, if they're 664 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: shooting everything that's three and a half. You know all 665 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: of that that that plays in. But I had one 666 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: more question, which does tie into neighbors as well? Is 667 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 1: as I was sitting in the stand. You know, we're 668 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: trying to shoot these doughs, um and and you know, 669 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: these seasons are long in the Midwest compared to our 670 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: two week seasons one week season, so you don't see 671 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: the pressure spikes like we see. But I'm like, the 672 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: neighbors don't appear to be hunting at all, Like we 673 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: get to see their roads on the way into our places. Um, 674 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: if they're not harvesting their doughs, are we're gonna lose 675 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: you know, this well managed piece of property. Are our 676 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: bucks gonna leave? Or do they have enough dos to 677 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: deal with? You know? In my mind, well, if there's 678 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: you know, the neighbor has twice as many doughs, are 679 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: we gonna lose our bucks to them? Like? Is there 680 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: is there any you know, anything that supports that buckstan 681 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: on his home range and and being completely um content 682 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: with with breeding the doughs that were available, or is 683 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: that gonna start and ridgelines and leave my property or 684 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: leave the property? I think it's very difficult, uh to 685 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: manage that situation. And and uh, I have thought and thought, 686 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: and Steve and I have gone back and forth with 687 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: for years about this and the way I would advise 688 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: someone is uh, I would be just making sure that 689 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: you manage your property with the appropriate density as we 690 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: as we said earlier, to maximize the quality of But 691 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: both your bucks and does that is what is in 692 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: your control. That is what you can do. It is 693 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: absolutely going to be successful. Your your neighbor running a 694 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,879 Speaker 1: higher dow density than maybe you. Yeah, it is going 695 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: to happen. You can take it to the bank that 696 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: one or two or some fraction of your bucks are 697 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: gonna spin off because they've put their nose in the 698 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: air and the prevailing wind and they can tell a 699 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: doze and heat and they're gonna leave your property and 700 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: they're gonna get shot. They absolutely are. But but I 701 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: think that I think that is a of that is 702 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: a short term negative. What I think turns into a 703 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: long term negative is now I'm going to manage my 704 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: property with a whole bunch of deer and a whole 705 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: bunch of dose and diminish the quality of the entire 706 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: herd because of that instance that may happen every year 707 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: every other year where your your buck leaves of property 708 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: and gets killed. Now you've shot yourself in the foot. 709 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: Management wise, Yeah, that makes it I mean, you're you're 710 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: just you're calculating your you're you're betting on what has 711 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: the best, you know, potential to produce big bucks. And 712 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: so like you said, it sounds like herd hells number one. Um, 713 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: and you just have to accept that you're gonna lose 714 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: maybe you know a buck or two that you wanted 715 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: to tell guill to it to a neighboring property, but overall, 716 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: that's gonna give you the best chances on your well 717 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: managed piece of property to take that you know, same 718 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: butt or or the term sustainable way to do it. Absolutely. Okay, 719 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: so we've sided, We've got a harvest dose. Um. We 720 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: we had a few conversations in the blind, Um, what 721 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: is the right dough to take? Um? You know. And 722 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: once again, I don't want to say that I was 723 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: above shooting a yearling, but you know, it's like going 724 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: into it like, oh, you want to shoot the biggest, 725 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: oldest dough, you know, get some meat off of her, um, 726 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: you know. And and Randy kind of alludes like I 727 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: don't mind shooting the yearling dough at all. And for 728 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: the reasons of you know, I'm you may want to 729 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: elaborate on whether there's a second rut or a later up. 730 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: But my understanding is the older dose or the more 731 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: mature does will come in you know, earlier, all kind 732 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: of at the same time. And then we get those 733 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: you know, two and a half year old, year and 734 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: a half old dose that will maybe come in later, 735 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: you know, late November, early December, and and and Randy's 736 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: frustration was not frustration, but his concern was it now 737 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: has his bigger bucks chasing you know, dose for an 738 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: extra month. And we've all seen it where you kill 739 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: a buck, you know, mid mid October, you's got layers 740 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: off at on him. You kill a buck mid November 741 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: and it's completely on. Well, now you've got to add 742 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: an entire month of chasing onto that. So Randy was like, 743 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: I have no problem shooting a mature dough. I have 744 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: no problem shooting a year ling dough. What's your thoughts 745 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: on is there a right age class of dose to 746 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: take out or or my my other concern to Randy, 747 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: not to ramble on with my question was if you 748 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: leave the mature does, you've now just taken a band 749 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: of a certain age class of dose out, Like do 750 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: you want to me? It would seem like the best 751 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: ways just to be pretty random about it. But what's 752 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: your thought on is there a prime candidate or or 753 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: what should the management strategy be on taking dose out? Well, 754 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna one up your buddy Randy. Not only do 755 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: I not mind shooting a yearling dough, I'll shoot a 756 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: dough faon um that that does not even come into 757 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: my thinking about pulling the trigger. I've got to ensure 758 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: it is a dough fallen and not a buck fawn. 759 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: But uh man, that's some good eating right there. It 760 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: gets you a couple of dough phones. That to me, 761 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: Jason is um. It's one of those things that makes 762 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: better discussion than practically you can you can implement. So 763 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: here's a couple of scenarios. For example, let's let's say 764 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: I'm on a property or area where fawn recruitment is 765 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: an issue. So think of your more arid places where 766 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: you might be skipping some fawn crops, or you might 767 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: have an average of uh one fond four dose then 768 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: uh in that case, if you even needed to shoot 769 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: a dough, you probably don't. But let's just say you 770 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: were going to make a decision, I would be wanting 771 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: to shoot the dough that did not have a fawn 772 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: at heel, whether it be a yearling or two year 773 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: old um. Because in that context, those older mothers with 774 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: fawn at heel have demonstrated that they have the cover 775 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: and food, that they know how to to raise a fawn, 776 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: they know how to recruit a faon into the population. 777 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: Now you can turn right around to an area, like 778 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: a lot of places in the southeast, where dealing with 779 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: dear density is always a problem, and I can only 780 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 1: shoot one. Let's say, for whatever reason, I can only 781 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: shoot one out walk three, there's a doe fawn, there's 782 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,359 Speaker 1: a yearling or a two year old with no fawn, 783 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: and and there's an adult dough with two fawns. If 784 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm trying to slow down the reproductive engine of that population, 785 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: it's probably wiser to shoot that older dough. I'm probably 786 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: gonna because next year I will probably have recruited less 787 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: fawns the following year by killing that older productive dough. 788 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: That makes a ton of sense. So you're you know, 789 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: maturity of that dough doesn't necessarily matter. You're looking for, 790 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: you know what your management needs to be, whether it's 791 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: less does or less fawns, more fawns in your basing 792 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: that if you had to pick, you know, one way 793 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: or the other. Yeah, if I had to another way, 794 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 1: depending on what state you're in. Another way to say 795 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 1: it is, if you need to kill a bunch, shoot 796 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: all three, shoot the dope, fall in the yearling end 797 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,320 Speaker 1: of the adult, take out the whole, the whole group. 798 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: H m hm. Now, I didn't go into this episode 799 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 1: intending to leave you hanging, but there was just so 800 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: much good information we had to break this into two parts. 801 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 1: Tune in next time for part two of my conversation 802 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: with Dr Bronson Strickland. M hm hm