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Speaker 1: Pushkin. So welcome, Rhiannon Giddens. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming in.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking about your new album, Hope is the

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Speaker 1: Thing with Feathers. Tell me how that came about.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was just time to make that record.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've been in the industry for 20 years now,

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Speaker 2: and I tend to work with the same folks kind

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Speaker 2: of over and over again in kind of different contexts.

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Speaker 2: configurations and it's kind of a cyclical thing, you know?

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Speaker 2: And it just felt like I needed to just bring

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Speaker 2: as many people as I could from my musical family

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Speaker 2: into the studio and just make some music. So we

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Speaker 2: actually made a bunch of music. There's a whole nother

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Speaker 2: probably two records in what we made in addition to

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Speaker 2: what we have today. But what's really beautiful about this

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Speaker 2: collection is that it showcases my love and kind of

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Speaker 2: rootedness in North Carolina and through the people, the styles

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Speaker 2: of music, and the choice of songs. And it also

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Speaker 2: really is an opportunity for me to have, like, the

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Speaker 2: breadth of my musical collaborators all together. So from my sister,

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Speaker 2: who I was singing with since children, to, like, my

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Speaker 2: most recent collaborator, Newell Tsumbu from, you know, from the Congo,

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Speaker 2: who lives in Ireland, and everybody in between. And so...

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Speaker 2: I feel really lucky to be able to do that.

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Speaker 2: And it is like, it's been 20 years. So it

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Speaker 2: is kind of one of those, like it's 20 years

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Speaker 2: as a generation. So it is kind of that moment

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Speaker 2: I'm going through menopause or I've been through it or whatever,

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Speaker 2: going through this shift in my life and sort of

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Speaker 2: looking back as I think about looking forward.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about working with Neewall because he has such

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Speaker 1: a distinctive sound, such a distinctive way of playing. How

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Speaker 1: does that fit in with the way you do music?

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Speaker 2: He's just a really singular musician. I feel so lucky

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Speaker 2: that he's, you know, happy to play along with my

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Speaker 2: simple music because his brain is just off the charts,

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Speaker 2: you know. He's got a very unique harmonic sense because

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Speaker 2: he's drawn from a lot of different traditions. Obviously, he's

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Speaker 2: kind of an embodied researcher in terms of ethnomusicology. Like,

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Speaker 2: he's collected all these different old, you know, guitar styles

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Speaker 2: that are kind of tied to the earlier instruments, you know,

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Speaker 2: say in regions of the Congo. He carries that in

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Speaker 2: his body. He's also played a lot of flamenco music.

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Speaker 2: He's been in Ireland for years. He plays Irish music.

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Speaker 2: And then he's got his own compositional sense, you know.

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Speaker 2: So the title track, Hope is a Thing With Feathers,

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Speaker 2: which is obviously an Emily Dickinson poem, I, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of downloaded this tune for it in a hotel

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Speaker 2: room somewhere and brought it to Newell. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: what do you hear? I just started singing it, and

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Speaker 2: he just started playing immediately what you hear, what you

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Speaker 2: end up hearing on the record. As much as the

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Speaker 2: melody came to me, that tar part came to him,

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Speaker 2: and it so perfectly fit the words and the idea of,

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Speaker 2: especially Emily's, if I can call her Emily, her punctuation.

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Speaker 2: So often she leaves things with a dash, and you

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Speaker 2: get this feeling that it's not over. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: always going to be another thought that you can't hear it,

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Speaker 2: but you know it's being thought somewhere. And I love

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Speaker 2: that about this poem because, I mean, that's hope, really,

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Speaker 2: is that it can't ever stop. Even if it goes

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Speaker 2: down to a low ebb for a while, it can't really,

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Speaker 2: you can't really stop it, you know. And so his

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Speaker 2: guitar just perfectly matches, you know, I feel like the

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Speaker 2: words and the melody. And he just has, I think

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Speaker 2: he has a genius that is just of his own.

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Speaker 1: You said that you downloaded it in a hotel room.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like from the infinite, like the tune just came

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Speaker 2: into my head.

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Speaker 1: Did it come with the words?

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Speaker 2: Like I saw the words, you know, on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I stumbled across the poem or whatever.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm in good company with this song. You know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, Alice Randall wrote a song with that as

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Speaker 2: the first line, the first line of that poem and

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Speaker 2: thinking about that. So, you know, it's an obvious, like

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Speaker 2: obviously great. sentiment, you know, it's like I said, I'm

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Speaker 2: in good company with that. But I loved the whole poem.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just like heard the, well,

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Speaker 2: Saul was reading the words almost for the first time again,

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Speaker 2: you know, they just hit me in a different way.

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Speaker 2: And I just sat there in the chair, I remember it,

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Speaker 2: and just started singing the poem. And so I recorded myself,

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Speaker 2: you know, you know, something like, you know, hope is

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Speaker 2: a thing with feathers, perches in the soul. sings the

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Speaker 2: tune without the words, never stops at all, never stops

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Speaker 2: at all. It was kind of like a ballady kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. And then, you know, when I started singing

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Speaker 2: it with Newell, it sort of found the rhythm, you know,

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Speaker 2: we found that kind of together and the repetitions. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: that tune just really came. I didn't work on it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't go, okay, let me try this upper note,

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Speaker 2: lower note. It just came.

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Speaker 1: Does that happen to you a lot?

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Speaker 2: Happens sometimes. When it happens more and more, the kind

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Speaker 2: of more I can, you know, get ego out of

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Speaker 2: the way and get all this other crap out of

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Speaker 2: the way and just kind of like be in the moment.

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Speaker 2: It has happened, you know, and those are usually my

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Speaker 2: favorite tunes. Like at the Purchaser's Option, which is a

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Speaker 2: few records ago, it happened that way. Like the chorus

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Speaker 2: just downloaded into my brain. And so I always say

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Speaker 2: that those kind of songs, I shepherd them into existence.

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Speaker 2: I like conduit i'm a conduit for them and it

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Speaker 2: is really i i feel a very spiritual experience and

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Speaker 2: i feel very lucky to have those moments and now

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Speaker 2: my my what i'm chasing is not chasing but what

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Speaker 2: i'm trying to do is to continue to let my

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Speaker 2: brain be receptive in that way and and it's only

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Speaker 2: receptive when i fully acknowledge how not in control i

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Speaker 2: am you know it's like none of this is mine

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Speaker 2: It's just mine for a while, and it's not about me.

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Speaker 2: And the more that I situate myself in that, the

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Speaker 2: more gifts, I look at them as gifts come, and

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Speaker 2: I just feel really, really lucky.

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Speaker 1: Is that happenstance, or are there things you can do

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Speaker 1: to reinforce those ideas?

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Speaker 2: It's like bird seed. As soon as you put some

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Speaker 2: bird seed in your hand and it's like you're staring

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Speaker 2: at the seed waiting for the bird to land, it's

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Speaker 2: never going to happen. As soon as you look over

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Speaker 2: here and just relax, the bird comes, you know. And

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Speaker 2: as soon as you stop focusing on the outcome, I mean,

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Speaker 2: my mom told me this years ago. It's been something

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Speaker 2: I've really tried to model my life after. If you're

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Speaker 2: looking for a specific frame, you know, a specific outcome,

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Speaker 2: a specific shape, size, color to whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: you're trying to do, then you often miss the cooler

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Speaker 2: thing over here that you couldn't see, you know. And so...

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Speaker 2: I try to aim for a substance and then let

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Speaker 2: how it looks or how it sounds come as it may.

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Speaker 2: So for me, the substance is about trying to be

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Speaker 2: as centered as I can, trying to use this life

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Speaker 2: that I've been given as much as I can. It

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Speaker 2: is a responsibility that I feel because what friction do

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Speaker 2: I have in my life? So it behooves me to

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Speaker 2: really use it to its utmost to do what I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to do.

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Speaker 1: It's true, but Modern society makes it very hard to

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Speaker 1: not think about the outcome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. It is a discipline. It's a discipline.

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Speaker 2: And we tend to focus on, I mean, I've done

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Speaker 2: a bit of research, you know, it was for a project,

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Speaker 2: but I just, I've been a fan of Thich Nhat

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Speaker 2: Hanh for a while. And, I mean, this is not

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Speaker 2: about wellness. Like, this is not the wellness industry, right?

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Speaker 2: This is really about the discipline of trying to find

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Speaker 2: the silence within ourselves. so that it can be filled

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Speaker 2: with other things, so that it can be receptive to

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Speaker 2: inspiration or movement or whatever it is that we want

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Speaker 2: to call God, the infinite, whatever that is bigger than ourselves, right?

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Speaker 2: Even just the energy between two people is bigger than yourself.

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Speaker 2: Our culture is so much about commodification. So even the

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Speaker 2: idea of meditation, even the idea of focusing on this

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Speaker 2: discipline becomes a product of And it becomes seven easy

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Speaker 2: lessons and it becomes books and it becomes an industry.

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Speaker 2: When really, like, of course, there's writings that can help

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Speaker 2: and there's people's wisdom that you want to take in.

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Speaker 2: But it's really just you and yourself and you at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day. And modern society is built

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Speaker 2: to distract you from that because how can they sell

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Speaker 2: you something if you don't need it? You know?

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Speaker 1: I don't know why this comes to mind. But when

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Speaker 1: I was listening to the record, because you're talking about

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Speaker 1: being centered and you were talking about silences. You taped

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Speaker 1: this in different studios over the course of a year

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Speaker 1: and a half?

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Speaker 2: It was all in one studio.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it was all in one studio.

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Speaker 2: Okay. We made several trips.

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Speaker 1: Okay. This was one of those albums that when I

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Speaker 1: listened to it, I thought I could hear the room.

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Speaker 1: And maybe it was because they're quiet songs, they're loud songs,

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Speaker 1: there are silences within the songs. But I really felt

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Speaker 1: the room, which you don't always feel with records.

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Speaker 2: That's great because that's what we want. We did a

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Speaker 2: lot of live recording, so there's only overdubs when they

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Speaker 2: have to be, like somebody can't play two instruments at once.

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: Um, and we tried to be very sparing with that

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Speaker 2: is we is my co-producer, Dirk Powell. It's also his,

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Speaker 2: his studio. It's kind of like a small house, very

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Speaker 2: old house that he sort of turned into a studio.

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Speaker 2: So it's very warm, old wood. It's next to a bayou,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's, it's, on family land and all of

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Speaker 2: this so it's a very welcoming space and i've been

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Speaker 2: making music there for a long time with him um

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Speaker 2: but for this one you know we had there's moments

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Speaker 2: like angel fire where there's like five people playing at

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Speaker 2: once and so it's all being recorded there's no isolation

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Speaker 2: booths none of that you know it was it's literally

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Speaker 2: like we're all in the room together so we wanted

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Speaker 2: the room to be its own you know i mean

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Speaker 2: obviously without being distracting like But it's kind of an

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Speaker 2: extension of what I did last, the last record I released,

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Speaker 2: which was made outside with the nature sounds and the

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Speaker 2: locusts and the birds and everything. And this was obviously

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Speaker 2: more of a studio recording, but still wanted that feel.

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Speaker 2: Because for me, we're going further and further and like, look,

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Speaker 2: we can go as far down the road as you want,

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Speaker 2: you know, in terms of the elephant in the room

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Speaker 2: of AI. But in terms of music being something that

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Speaker 2: for most of human existence is created by the hands

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Speaker 2: and the voice and the human body and was unable

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Speaker 2: to be separated from the human, right? Until the recording industry,

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Speaker 2: which is only a hundred years old. And so when

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Speaker 2: we do make recordings for me, I'm more interested now

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Speaker 2: at this point in my life and maintaining the humanness

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Speaker 2: of it, you know? So you don't forget like this

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Speaker 2: was people making this in a room, not, some, you know,

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Speaker 2: zeros and ones or whatever, you know. So I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of leaning into that because I'm like, the other stuff

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Speaker 2: is covered. You know what I mean? No one needs

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Speaker 2: me to do that. So this is what I'm good

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Speaker 2: at is, you know, is handmade music and reminding folks

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Speaker 2: if they need reminding that this can also be a

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Speaker 2: good thing.

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Speaker 1: Reminds me of another project you just did I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about. And I happen to have it right here,

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Speaker 1: which is your amazing book of African-American music called Go

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Speaker 1: Back and Fetch It. First of all, can you explain

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Speaker 1: the title for people who don't know it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Go Back and Fetch It is Sankofa, is a

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Speaker 2: translation of Sankofa, which is an Akan proverb. And it means,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's often represented by a bird walking forward

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Speaker 2: but looking back. sort of having a seed that it's

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Speaker 2: looking back to get. And the idea is that you

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Speaker 2: reach back and then you pull it forward. I first

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Speaker 2: heard it from Sule Greg Wilson, who was, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the chocolate drop universe, Carolina chocolate drop universe back

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Speaker 2: in the day. He's a great kind of folklorist and

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Speaker 2: musician from, from Arizona. But the idea of, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not just enough to go back. You got to

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Speaker 2: fetch it and bring it forward, you know? And so

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Speaker 2: this book is really, um, kind of the first, I hope,

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Speaker 2: in a series of reframing the pieces that we have

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Speaker 2: from early Atlantic, the Atlantic world, because really it's not

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Speaker 2: African American. It's really also the Caribbean. It's the Atlantic world.

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Speaker 2: We often don't, in mainstream culture, when we talk about history,

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Speaker 2: we don't look at it as a world, but it was.

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Speaker 2: All of the seaboard and the as many enslaved people

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Speaker 2: were brought from the Caribbean up into North America, which

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Speaker 2: were many from the very beginning, 1600s. So it is

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Speaker 2: a constant sort of thing that needs to be remembered.

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Speaker 2: But this book came out of my need of this book, actually,

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Speaker 2: in this weird kind of way. Because the thing about

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Speaker 2: if you're trying to research music made by enslaved people,

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Speaker 2: it's very difficult because the historical record is very slim.

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Speaker 2: The historical record is slim for poor people in general,

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Speaker 2: like especially back in the day. The historical record is

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Speaker 2: usually negative for people who aren't part of the aristocracy

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Speaker 2: or who have money. So by negative records, I mean

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Speaker 2: court cases, runaway slave ads or self-emancipatory ads, whatever you

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Speaker 2: want to call them, advertisements for people, wills. I mean

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Speaker 2: things like that where people are being left to other

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Speaker 2: people in their will, right? These are negative sources. So

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Speaker 2: it's sometimes really hard to find the voice of these

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Speaker 2: folks and let alone their names. So what I was

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Speaker 2: doing was I kept going to the websites that would

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Speaker 2: post these scraps of, you know, here's a tune written

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Speaker 2: down in 16 whatever and here's a tune written down

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Speaker 2: in 17. And I kept like downloading the JPEG. And

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Speaker 2: there was Laurent Dubois and his group in Duke put

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Speaker 2: up a website, and I kept going to that one.

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Speaker 2: And then Christina Gaddy was the other who had collected

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Speaker 2: all these things for her book, Well of Souls, about

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Speaker 2: the early history of the banjo. And I just said

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Speaker 2: to Christina, God, can you send me these JPEGs? She

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Speaker 2: sent me some JPEGs. I was like, we just need

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Speaker 2: to make a book and put them all in one book.

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Speaker 2: And then here it is. It's just kind of wild.

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Speaker 1: That's an amazing book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm really, really proud of it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Christina is like doing the heavy lifting with the historical frameworks,

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Speaker 2: but luckily she had already done a lot of that

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Speaker 2: work and it was just kind of had been, there

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Speaker 2: wasn't space for it in Well of Souls. So it

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Speaker 2: was actually a great for both of us because she

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Speaker 2: could use all of this that had been kind of

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Speaker 2: cut from that book in this book. And then I

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Speaker 2: engaged with each tune to make a tablature for banjo,

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Speaker 2: which is, you know, kind of a simultaneous, you know,

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Speaker 2: making it accessible for anybody who plays any kind of

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Speaker 2: five-string banjo, but then also a chance to explain some

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Speaker 2: of the techniques that I've learned by studying 1850s banjo tutors.

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Speaker 2: So I kind of took those techniques, which, because I

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Speaker 2: play a replica from 1858, so they would have been

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Speaker 2: gut-strong and... fretless and so it's a very different technique

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Speaker 2: to the modern wire strung metal banjos that you know

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Speaker 2: just just the mechanics of what you're doing with your

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Speaker 2: hand is different and they called it stroke style and

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Speaker 2: so i kind of extrapolated that backwards because i'm like

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Speaker 2: that's coming from already a couple hundred years of acculturation

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Speaker 2: on the banjo so there's clearly if i want to

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Speaker 2: take it back and i was playing these tunes with

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Speaker 2: the with that style and going wow it really works

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Speaker 2: So it is an act of creation, but an act

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Speaker 2: of creation that's very rooted in the sources that we have.

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Speaker 1: It's a music book that reads like a detective story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like that. You're going through and you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're putting all this together. What you said about music

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Speaker 1: being between people, this is like writing down things that

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Speaker 1: were handed down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And also it's very important to remember that You know,

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Speaker 2: like there's a concept in quantum mechanics, right? The act

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Speaker 2: of observing disturbs the observed because of the nature of

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Speaker 2: the photon. Like it knocks the particle off its right,

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Speaker 2: all that. And it's the same in cultural life, right?

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Speaker 2: If you see something, the act of observing it often

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Speaker 2: changes even the person playing it because they see they're

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Speaker 2: being watched. That can change. If you're observing it and

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Speaker 2: you write it down, you've already put your lens on it.

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Speaker 2: So however you see it... A lot of this music

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Speaker 2: was written down by European observers. There's some that were

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Speaker 2: written or from actual black sources. There were some that

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Speaker 2: were named something like Congo, but like feel like we

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Speaker 2: don't know where they're coming, you know. So we say

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Speaker 2: all of that in the book. Then I'm putting it

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Speaker 2: in tablature. So I'm bringing my own, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of lens onto it. So it's very important to declare

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Speaker 2: your position. So my position is thinking about sitting knee

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Speaker 2: to knee. I sat knee to knee along with the

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Speaker 2: other original Chocolate Drops with Joe Thompson. And as an apprentice,

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Speaker 2: we were apprentices. He didn't charge us money. This was

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Speaker 2: the old style, whereas you carry on the lineage. That's

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Speaker 2: the repayment. So for him, the fact that we went

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Speaker 2: down and played with him the same tunes over and

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Speaker 2: over and over again, that was what was in his culture.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's how you learn. Now, it was already

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Speaker 2: one step out because we didn't grow up with him.

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Speaker 2: You know, like my family's from that area, but I

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Speaker 2: didn't grow up in Mebane, you know, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: grow up with him. So that's already one step out,

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Speaker 2: but it was still, here we are.

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Speaker 1: It's still a remarkable experience that you don't get much

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Speaker 1: in the world anymore.

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Speaker 2: It's incredible. Like the older I get, the more I go, wow,

341
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Speaker 2: we were so lucky, you know, and we did like,

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Speaker 2: we did do it. We did go, but we had

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Speaker 2: that opportunity to go. We were young. We were unfettered.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't married with kids. They were younger than me.

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Speaker 2: And we had the opportunity to do that. We had enough.

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Speaker 2: We had a car. We had the time. All of

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Speaker 2: these things that not everybody has. And then we had

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Speaker 2: the desire to go. And then we had Joe. All

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Speaker 2: of that came together in a way that the older

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Speaker 2: I get, the more I'm like, wow. Obviously, you can't

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Speaker 2: go back in time. But how do you look at

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Speaker 2: what's happening now? I'm very... Like even the book... It's

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Speaker 2: supposed to be a starting point. You know, like if

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Speaker 2: somebody came up to me and said, can I just

355
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Speaker 2: sit with you and play Georgia Bug for an hour?

356
00:19:50,926 --> 00:19:52,486
Speaker 2: I'd be like, sure. I'm not going to charge them

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Speaker 2: for that. You know, that's why I don't teach. I'm

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Speaker 2: not interested in teaching something to a student. Like I'll

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Speaker 2: go to a teacher. done a teaching week where, you know,

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Speaker 2: you kind of teach a class for the week, whatever.

361
00:20:02,626 --> 00:20:05,826
Speaker 2: I've experimented with that some. But if somebody came to

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Speaker 2: me and said, you know, I want to learn a

363
00:20:08,776 --> 00:20:10,686
Speaker 2: Joe tune, can I sit with you and learn it?

364
00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:14,256
Speaker 2: I would sit and play with them. Like that feels

365
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Speaker 2: right to me. You know, nobody does that. which is interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's been very, very few people, you know, have reached out.

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Speaker 2: And when they do, it's been great. You know, here,

368
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Speaker 2: come to the gig. We'll sit for an hour, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I can't do it all the time, obviously. I'm

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Speaker 2: not even close to that, though, because it's been, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think people are so used to purchasing a book,

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Speaker 2: purchasing a lesson, purchasing a degree and learning music that way.

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Speaker 2: It's like the academization of music. Which is okay. I

374
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Speaker 2: went to a conservatory. That's how I learned European art music.

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Speaker 2: It's really important to say I'm not pooping on that.

376
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Speaker 2: There's different ways of learning different things. But I think

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Speaker 2: that I would love to have a bit more nuance

378
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Speaker 2: as to what is seen as a good way to

379
00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:08,056
Speaker 2: learn things. I think we look at the book learning

380
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Speaker 2: and the classes as the only way. Because of the

381
00:21:11,756 --> 00:21:13,966
Speaker 2: way that our economy is set up and the way

382
00:21:14,006 --> 00:21:16,986
Speaker 2: that our modern life is set up, it doesn't offer

383
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Speaker 2: a way of having that be a part of life.

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Speaker 2: That's hard, you know, and I get it.

385
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Speaker 1: The institutions that used to make that possible, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess people still learn gospel singing in church. That's

387
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Speaker 1: not something they, I mean, they have hymnals, but that's

388
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Speaker 1: not the primary way they do it. You're living in

389
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Speaker 1: Ireland where I'm sure there are still people learning Irish

390
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Speaker 1: tunes in the old way, but made a lot less

391
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Speaker 1: of it.

392
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Speaker 2: It is very interesting to be in Ireland because it's

393
00:21:45,106 --> 00:21:50,926
Speaker 2: a very fascinating case study for traditional music and the

394
00:21:51,226 --> 00:21:56,706
Speaker 2: commodification of it, the institutionalization of it, and yet it's

395
00:21:57,206 --> 00:22:02,066
Speaker 2: still being passed on in communities today. It's also, you know,

396
00:22:02,186 --> 00:22:05,286
Speaker 2: there's places where people come and they learn a tune

397
00:22:05,346 --> 00:22:06,826
Speaker 2: for the week and then they go back home and,

398
00:22:07,126 --> 00:22:09,126
Speaker 2: you know, do they pick up that instrument again? I mean,

399
00:22:09,166 --> 00:22:13,996
Speaker 2: you know, it's a larger topic than I think we

400
00:22:14,016 --> 00:22:17,956
Speaker 2: could get into, but I don't know what to think,

401
00:22:18,256 --> 00:22:20,336
Speaker 2: to be honest. I guess that's why I'm not really

402
00:22:20,376 --> 00:22:22,916
Speaker 2: articulate with this, even though I think about it a lot,

403
00:22:23,536 --> 00:22:28,226
Speaker 2: is what we're doing to music and what music did

404
00:22:28,256 --> 00:22:30,666
Speaker 2: for us for so long. I just feel like we're getting,

405
00:22:30,686 --> 00:22:34,646
Speaker 2: we're really getting away from it. It's like, even the

406
00:22:34,746 --> 00:22:36,846
Speaker 2: idea of like playing tunes, it's like a lot of

407
00:22:36,886 --> 00:22:39,106
Speaker 2: people just like collect all the, they just collect a

408
00:22:39,146 --> 00:22:41,666
Speaker 2: bunch of tunes that they play. And I'm like, but

409
00:22:41,706 --> 00:22:44,026
Speaker 2: what are we doing with those tunes? You know, I mean, obviously,

410
00:22:44,656 --> 00:22:49,596
Speaker 2: Joe Thompson came out of a period of history where

411
00:22:49,736 --> 00:22:52,476
Speaker 2: music was a part of culture in a certain way,

412
00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:57,706
Speaker 2: like handmade dance music, Obviously, World War II and after that,

413
00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:03,406
Speaker 2: television killed it all over the place, killed these folk

414
00:23:03,426 --> 00:23:08,526
Speaker 2: traditions and communities, storytelling, dance music, all of this kind

415
00:23:08,566 --> 00:23:11,136
Speaker 2: of stuff. It really did a number on it. So

416
00:23:11,216 --> 00:23:15,396
Speaker 2: I understand music comes out of necessity. It comes out

417
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,816
Speaker 2: of culture. But I think we have a lot of

418
00:23:18,856 --> 00:23:24,746
Speaker 2: choice in how we go forward. And I think it's just...

419
00:23:25,496 --> 00:23:28,536
Speaker 2: It would be really important to be intentional about what

420
00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:32,256
Speaker 2: are we doing with this music. I think art has

421
00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:35,836
Speaker 2: been taken out of people's everyday lives in a way

422
00:23:35,896 --> 00:23:39,786
Speaker 2: that I find distressing because it's not like everybody was

423
00:23:40,126 --> 00:23:43,666
Speaker 2: a genius player and an artist like back in the day.

424
00:23:44,086 --> 00:23:49,356
Speaker 2: There's variations always. There's people who just have a knack

425
00:23:49,416 --> 00:23:51,216
Speaker 2: for it. There's people who want to focus on it

426
00:23:51,256 --> 00:23:52,736
Speaker 2: and get really good. And there's people who just want

427
00:23:52,756 --> 00:23:55,166
Speaker 2: to play. play a little bit, sing a little bit.

428
00:23:55,306 --> 00:23:56,726
Speaker 2: Everybody used to be able to sing a little bit,

429
00:23:57,186 --> 00:24:01,186
Speaker 2: you know? And I really feel like there's so much

430
00:24:01,266 --> 00:24:05,026
Speaker 2: focus on, I mean, I have taught workshops of singing

431
00:24:05,066 --> 00:24:08,146
Speaker 2: in the past, you know, and the amount of people like, well,

432
00:24:08,186 --> 00:24:09,726
Speaker 2: you know, I was told I wasn't a good singer

433
00:24:09,766 --> 00:24:11,286
Speaker 2: when I was in fourth grade and you can just

434
00:24:11,366 --> 00:24:14,376
Speaker 2: see the pain still, you know? And it just makes

435
00:24:14,436 --> 00:24:16,916
Speaker 2: me so sad. I'm like, who told them that and why? Well,

436
00:24:16,976 --> 00:24:19,356
Speaker 2: because they didn't have a fantastic voice that maybe they

437
00:24:19,376 --> 00:24:21,496
Speaker 2: could be a professional singer. Like who gives a crap?

438
00:24:21,736 --> 00:24:25,226
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Like, But that's the music

439
00:24:25,266 --> 00:24:28,386
Speaker 2: has been co-opted by, you know, capitalism in this, you know,

440
00:24:28,426 --> 00:24:31,136
Speaker 2: there's only one reason to make music and that's to

441
00:24:31,176 --> 00:24:34,636
Speaker 2: be a professional music maker, a professional content provider, a

442
00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:38,636
Speaker 2: professional thing maker. I think that's unfair, you know. So

443
00:24:38,736 --> 00:24:42,236
Speaker 2: like instead of making a bit of music, you like

444
00:24:42,376 --> 00:24:45,096
Speaker 2: work the job and then you go listen to the

445
00:24:45,136 --> 00:24:47,536
Speaker 2: music or you have the music on all the time

446
00:24:47,576 --> 00:24:49,836
Speaker 2: and you don't even notice it anymore. You know, the

447
00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:53,116
Speaker 2: experience of listening to music has changed so much, you know.

448
00:24:53,696 --> 00:24:56,196
Speaker 2: And all of this, of course, there's variation within this.

449
00:24:56,996 --> 00:25:00,876
Speaker 2: In general, that is what you see. And I'm an

450
00:25:01,016 --> 00:25:03,116
Speaker 2: advocate for picking up an instrument. I just picked up

451
00:25:03,136 --> 00:25:07,666
Speaker 2: the concertina. I'm 49 years old. It's a hard freaking instrument.

452
00:25:08,026 --> 00:25:11,546
Speaker 2: And there's nothing like breaking yourself back down to basics

453
00:25:11,666 --> 00:25:15,746
Speaker 2: and sucking at something. Bruce DeBauer is a great photographer

454
00:25:15,766 --> 00:25:18,646
Speaker 2: and his website is Permission to Suck. It's so good.

455
00:25:18,746 --> 00:25:21,366
Speaker 2: I mean, I've thought about that so much. I love

456
00:25:21,446 --> 00:25:26,156
Speaker 2: the idea of just letting go and being bad because

457
00:25:26,176 --> 00:25:29,936
Speaker 2: that's the only way to be good. Nobody starts good.

458
00:25:29,956 --> 00:25:32,856
Speaker 2: There's a few geniuses that can just pick it up, right?

459
00:25:33,206 --> 00:25:36,966
Speaker 2: But even then, they're not really good. You know what

460
00:25:36,986 --> 00:25:39,046
Speaker 2: I mean? They still got to work. So my daughter

461
00:25:39,086 --> 00:25:40,666
Speaker 2: does because she's one of those that just picks up

462
00:25:40,686 --> 00:25:43,246
Speaker 2: shit and plays it. I'm like, yeah, but you'll never

463
00:25:43,306 --> 00:25:47,026
Speaker 2: be actually really good unless you practice. And it's like,

464
00:25:47,406 --> 00:25:50,766
Speaker 2: I love it. I love learning something new because it

465
00:25:50,826 --> 00:25:54,006
Speaker 2: just Levels me out and takes me down all the

466
00:25:54,046 --> 00:25:57,266
Speaker 2: pegs that I've climbed up thinking I'm so good. And,

467
00:25:57,346 --> 00:26:00,246
Speaker 2: you know, I'm such a good singer. I can't play

468
00:26:00,306 --> 00:26:04,066
Speaker 2: a freaking, you know, tune on, like, I can't play Twinkle,

469
00:26:04,086 --> 00:26:06,636
Speaker 2: Twinkle Little Star on this thing. Like, what's going on,

470
00:26:06,696 --> 00:26:09,176
Speaker 2: you know? And I think it's just great for the brain,

471
00:26:09,896 --> 00:26:10,176
Speaker 2: you know?

472
00:26:10,616 --> 00:26:13,516
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of what you're talking about is the

473
00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:15,376
Speaker 1: social aspect of music that's been lost.

474
00:26:16,556 --> 00:26:20,086
Speaker 2: The social aspect is really... I think one of the

475
00:26:20,226 --> 00:26:23,966
Speaker 2: biggest tragedies from singing in.

476
00:26:23,906 --> 00:26:26,186
Speaker 3: A choir, because the other thing.

477
00:26:26,086 --> 00:26:28,586
Speaker 2: About, you know, or playing in a garage band or,

478
00:26:29,106 --> 00:26:32,836
Speaker 2: you know, playing tunes with somebody, because the other thing

479
00:26:32,916 --> 00:26:36,596
Speaker 2: is that you have to negotiate. When you're in groups

480
00:26:36,656 --> 00:26:39,136
Speaker 2: of people, you have to learn how to negotiate. You

481
00:26:39,176 --> 00:26:40,696
Speaker 2: have to be like, you know what? I don't like

482
00:26:40,736 --> 00:26:44,336
Speaker 2: the way you did that. Okay, moving on. You know

483
00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:46,366
Speaker 2: what I mean? You don't always like it. You don't

484
00:26:46,406 --> 00:26:48,906
Speaker 2: always get on all the time. You have to learn,

485
00:26:48,926 --> 00:26:53,586
Speaker 2: and that's what we're in our sort of little isolated moments.

486
00:26:54,426 --> 00:26:57,556
Speaker 2: We're losing the ability, and you see it in our discourse,

487
00:26:58,056 --> 00:27:00,776
Speaker 2: of having a disagreement. So when you're in a band

488
00:27:00,936 --> 00:27:03,676
Speaker 2: or you're in a choir and you're like, I don't

489
00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:06,056
Speaker 2: think we should sing it this way, you have to

490
00:27:06,096 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 2: learn how to figure out how to get to a

491
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:13,466
Speaker 2: place where everybody is, maybe they're not ecstatic, but they're content.

492
00:27:14,046 --> 00:27:17,326
Speaker 2: And I think those are skills that we're losing because-

493
00:27:18,096 --> 00:27:20,196
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just keep to music, you know, that

494
00:27:20,296 --> 00:27:22,896
Speaker 2: used to be a really good place, a really safe

495
00:27:22,976 --> 00:27:26,126
Speaker 2: place if you were lucky to like work that stuff out.

496
00:27:26,146 --> 00:27:29,646
Speaker 2: And if you do that from children, you know, it

497
00:27:29,706 --> 00:27:32,006
Speaker 2: works that muscle. And so then you can apply it

498
00:27:32,066 --> 00:27:35,226
Speaker 2: to other things. But like just, you know, push and

499
00:27:35,266 --> 00:27:36,806
Speaker 2: play doesn't give you that.

500
00:27:37,406 --> 00:27:40,026
Speaker 1: Well, you also, the few, the little playing I've done

501
00:27:40,066 --> 00:27:43,596
Speaker 1: in ensembles, you have to watch other people. Yes.

502
00:27:44,056 --> 00:27:45,716
Speaker 2: It's a communication always.

503
00:27:46,596 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 3: Always.

504
00:27:47,096 --> 00:27:49,436
Speaker 2: And like to be a good ensemble player, I say

505
00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:51,656
Speaker 2: this in Silk Road, like the Silk Road Ensemble that

506
00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:53,836
Speaker 2: I'm artistic director of, you have to listen louder than

507
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,236
Speaker 2: you play. That is the only way to be a

508
00:27:56,256 --> 00:27:58,776
Speaker 2: good ensemble player because if you're so loud that you

509
00:27:58,816 --> 00:28:02,716
Speaker 2: can't hear them, that's not a conversation. You're talking over

510
00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:06,036
Speaker 2: somebody and it's the same when you're just having a chat.

511
00:28:06,696 --> 00:28:09,386
Speaker 2: We're losing the ability to listen to people, you know?

512
00:28:10,496 --> 00:28:13,166
Speaker 2: As much as we're gaining other things, right, it's always

513
00:28:13,206 --> 00:28:16,666
Speaker 2: a push and a pull. But I just– I really

514
00:28:16,746 --> 00:28:19,966
Speaker 2: feel like singing in a choir was so fundamental for me,

515
00:28:20,046 --> 00:28:23,386
Speaker 2: singing with my sister, singing with my dad, you know,

516
00:28:23,426 --> 00:28:25,906
Speaker 2: listening to music with my mom. I mean, I didn't

517
00:28:25,926 --> 00:28:28,356
Speaker 2: play any instruments, but, like, we sang all the time.

518
00:28:29,296 --> 00:28:33,716
Speaker 2: And I am really grateful for that because I think

519
00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,676
Speaker 2: it really has shaped, you know, how I look at things.

520
00:28:38,176 --> 00:28:41,396
Speaker 1: You know, I do love– the emphasis, this is what

521
00:28:41,416 --> 00:28:45,836
Speaker 1: the book is about, on instrumental music because so much,

522
00:28:45,856 --> 00:28:47,776
Speaker 1: you know, when I think of, you know, Blues People,

523
00:28:47,816 --> 00:28:53,976
Speaker 1: the famous book about African-American music, it's very, very focused

524
00:28:54,016 --> 00:28:54,646
Speaker 1: on vocal music.

525
00:28:54,666 --> 00:28:54,836
Speaker 3: Yes.

526
00:28:55,516 --> 00:29:00,906
Speaker 1: And so this is this whole history that people, I

527
00:29:00,946 --> 00:29:02,866
Speaker 1: just don't think it's common currency for people.

528
00:29:03,206 --> 00:29:06,306
Speaker 2: No, I mean, that's been kind of part of my push.

529
00:29:06,406 --> 00:29:09,816
Speaker 1: When you say, oh, a fiddler from 1830s, We know

530
00:29:09,856 --> 00:29:10,586
Speaker 1: what we have in mind.

531
00:29:10,866 --> 00:29:17,826
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And also when you look at the similarities

532
00:29:17,866 --> 00:29:21,326
Speaker 2: and the differences between like what's happening. So like because

533
00:29:21,346 --> 00:29:25,176
Speaker 2: I'm working on a book right now about the working

534
00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 2: class cultural collaborative nature of American music, right? So to

535
00:29:28,656 --> 00:29:32,776
Speaker 2: understand what people were doing on this side of the ocean,

536
00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,776
Speaker 2: you have to understand what they're coming from. And that

537
00:29:35,816 --> 00:29:38,966
Speaker 2: has been a really interesting conversation. kind of enlightening thing.

538
00:29:39,096 --> 00:29:42,126
Speaker 2: And it's like, what traditions are happening here? What traditions

539
00:29:42,166 --> 00:29:44,626
Speaker 2: are happening here? And you see some things like, you know,

540
00:29:44,826 --> 00:29:47,306
Speaker 2: when I went to Africa, I went to the Gambia

541
00:29:47,366 --> 00:29:50,266
Speaker 2: to study the Akonteng, which is like a band. ancestor.

542
00:29:50,786 --> 00:29:54,156
Speaker 2: And I noticed that they never played without singing. They're

543
00:29:54,176 --> 00:29:57,916
Speaker 2: playing and singing like constantly, right? And I started thinking

544
00:29:57,976 --> 00:30:01,036
Speaker 2: about like other traditions, like the Angoni, like these other

545
00:30:01,996 --> 00:30:07,246
Speaker 2: like lute traditions. And then you think about traditional divisions from, say,

546
00:30:07,266 --> 00:30:09,106
Speaker 2: the British Isles where you have ballads and then you

547
00:30:09,126 --> 00:30:14,096
Speaker 2: have instrumental music or you have an accompanied. But the

548
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:19,636
Speaker 2: dance tunes with words, it's not really a thing. And

549
00:30:19,676 --> 00:30:24,146
Speaker 2: so in America, you get that. All of Joe's tunes

550
00:30:24,786 --> 00:30:25,506
Speaker 2: had words.

551
00:30:25,966 --> 00:30:26,226
Speaker 1: Really?

552
00:30:26,946 --> 00:30:28,826
Speaker 2: Most of them that I was taught by him, that's

553
00:30:28,846 --> 00:30:32,266
Speaker 2: all I can say, had words. And they may have

554
00:30:32,286 --> 00:30:35,226
Speaker 2: been like, silly words or whatever, but there were words.

555
00:30:35,386 --> 00:30:38,426
Speaker 2: And that started making me think, I'm like, wow, there's

556
00:30:38,586 --> 00:30:40,866
Speaker 2: all of these like things that we take for granted

557
00:30:40,926 --> 00:30:45,766
Speaker 2: here that could very well be like born of these

558
00:30:45,846 --> 00:30:49,356
Speaker 2: combos of, I say like Africa and Europe, but like

559
00:30:49,896 --> 00:30:52,816
Speaker 2: this combination in a way that has nothing to do

560
00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:55,716
Speaker 2: with rhythm, you know? So it's like, these are the

561
00:30:55,776 --> 00:30:58,216
Speaker 2: things that I think are really interesting, but you have

562
00:30:58,256 --> 00:31:01,086
Speaker 2: to like take into account what's happening before You know,

563
00:31:01,126 --> 00:31:03,526
Speaker 2: you have to think about all the different lute instruments

564
00:31:03,546 --> 00:31:05,326
Speaker 2: that are like all over West Africa, like that would

565
00:31:05,346 --> 00:31:08,046
Speaker 2: have been brought by, you know, the Arabs, you know,

566
00:31:08,106 --> 00:31:12,476
Speaker 2: which themselves, they're getting them from China and India. You know,

567
00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:15,276
Speaker 2: there's like the instruments are making this long trek with

568
00:31:15,336 --> 00:31:19,696
Speaker 2: people like over the continents and over the centuries. So like,

569
00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:23,976
Speaker 2: it's just a constant thing. But to know more about

570
00:31:24,016 --> 00:31:28,296
Speaker 2: what's happening beforehand, you can really start to see oh,

571
00:31:28,316 --> 00:31:30,496
Speaker 2: that's really interesting. Well, maybe this is that, you know,

572
00:31:30,516 --> 00:31:33,576
Speaker 2: and I'm not a, you know, I just have a

573
00:31:33,816 --> 00:31:36,776
Speaker 2: degree in music, opera performance, you know what I mean?

574
00:31:36,796 --> 00:31:40,336
Speaker 2: So I'm, all my stuff is self-taught and I rely

575
00:31:40,396 --> 00:31:44,986
Speaker 2: heavily on academics, but I'm trying to find a way

576
00:31:45,046 --> 00:31:48,006
Speaker 2: through where I can just, you know, people who are

577
00:31:48,046 --> 00:31:50,286
Speaker 2: never going to read those books to give them a

578
00:31:50,526 --> 00:31:53,126
Speaker 2: different kind of way of looking at American music. That's

579
00:31:53,206 --> 00:31:56,066
Speaker 2: not the sort of simplified narrative that we're given, you know?

580
00:31:56,086 --> 00:31:59,266
Speaker 1: I have one more question, which is, When you were

581
00:31:59,766 --> 00:32:01,976
Speaker 1: in this book, and I promise we'll get to your album.

582
00:32:01,996 --> 00:32:02,536
Speaker 2: That's all good.

583
00:32:02,856 --> 00:32:05,796
Speaker 1: You said a lot of the tunes were probably in 12-8.

584
00:32:06,396 --> 00:32:11,696
Speaker 2: What I've discovered in engaging with this early material, whether

585
00:32:11,736 --> 00:32:16,396
Speaker 2: it's from Caribbean sources or early American sources, is that

586
00:32:16,576 --> 00:32:20,196
Speaker 2: the feeling of duple and triple that happens at the

587
00:32:20,216 --> 00:32:24,406
Speaker 2: same time in music all over the world, but particularly

588
00:32:24,506 --> 00:32:26,486
Speaker 2: you really feel it in a lot of different kind

589
00:32:26,506 --> 00:32:27,706
Speaker 2: of African musics, right?

590
00:32:27,726 --> 00:32:27,826
Speaker 3: Right.

591
00:32:28,756 --> 00:32:33,676
Speaker 2: Is very present in these tunes. And the whole reason why,

592
00:32:33,696 --> 00:32:36,316
Speaker 2: you know, I even got here is because when I

593
00:32:36,376 --> 00:32:40,736
Speaker 2: started with the tunes from the banjo tutor in 1850, 1855,

594
00:32:40,736 --> 00:32:44,466
Speaker 2: and I started playing with Francesco Teresi, who plays, you know,

595
00:32:44,726 --> 00:32:48,886
Speaker 2: kind of North African Mediterranean percussion, I was like, oh,

596
00:32:49,646 --> 00:32:53,586
Speaker 2: that really worked with some of them. But then I

597
00:32:53,646 --> 00:32:59,446
Speaker 2: also started playing with Newell. And immediately it was like, whoa,

598
00:33:00,146 --> 00:33:04,266
Speaker 2: like the three verses to just, I just started playing

599
00:33:04,886 --> 00:33:07,906
Speaker 2: like the emphasis popped out in a, in a way

600
00:33:07,946 --> 00:33:12,986
Speaker 2: that I hadn't before. And you really hear that in

601
00:33:13,026 --> 00:33:14,786
Speaker 2: these tunes. And so just trying to think about how

602
00:33:14,806 --> 00:33:18,726
Speaker 2: do you notate them for a Western, Western notation to,

603
00:33:19,186 --> 00:33:22,506
Speaker 2: so the 12, eight kind of gives you in some

604
00:33:22,546 --> 00:33:25,766
Speaker 2: ways the, the, the feel. of that you know if

605
00:33:25,786 --> 00:33:28,566
Speaker 2: you don't have a cultural feel for it you're trying

606
00:33:28,586 --> 00:33:30,786
Speaker 2: to put it so that people can approximate that you

607
00:33:30,826 --> 00:33:34,786
Speaker 2: know what i mean but when you take the the

608
00:33:34,846 --> 00:33:38,876
Speaker 2: stroke style of banjo eventually becomes claw hammer banjo right

609
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:43,776
Speaker 2: and because it you know it has different cultural functions

610
00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:47,256
Speaker 2: and it's it's in different communities it eventually gets a

611
00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:49,836
Speaker 2: little bit flattened i don't want to say flattened because

612
00:33:49,856 --> 00:33:53,856
Speaker 2: it's got its own complexities but it loses very much

613
00:33:53,936 --> 00:33:57,726
Speaker 2: that that feel, you know? And so for me, like

614
00:33:57,786 --> 00:34:01,326
Speaker 2: just being able to try to articulate that into, that's

615
00:34:01,376 --> 00:34:06,676
Speaker 2: why you don't see jigs in Kloheimer banjo because there's

616
00:34:06,796 --> 00:34:09,716
Speaker 2: no ambiguity anymore. Whereas in a lot of these tunes,

617
00:34:10,556 --> 00:34:12,476
Speaker 2: it's like when I play them with Newell, like I

618
00:34:14,156 --> 00:34:19,366
Speaker 2: feel like he taps the three sometimes, you know, it's

619
00:34:19,386 --> 00:34:23,606
Speaker 2: like we did a Pompeo ran away, you know, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

620
00:34:24,346 --> 00:34:32,096
Speaker 2: Which is in here. So he'll tap that.

621
00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:32,896
Speaker 4: Oh, wow.

622
00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:40,366
Speaker 2: And I'm playing. Whoa.

623
00:34:41,026 --> 00:34:41,266
Speaker 3: Right?

624
00:34:41,306 --> 00:34:44,906
Speaker 2: It's the most simple tune. But all of that rhythmic

625
00:34:44,926 --> 00:34:48,806
Speaker 2: complexity is in its DNA, which you don't know unless

626
00:34:48,846 --> 00:34:52,206
Speaker 2: you play it on a minstrel banjo. Like you don't

627
00:34:52,386 --> 00:34:54,366
Speaker 2: feel that on– I don't feel that on a modern

628
00:34:54,386 --> 00:34:57,746
Speaker 2: banjo because there's just– the strings don't have to– which

629
00:34:57,806 --> 00:35:01,456
Speaker 2: is why embodied research is so important, right? It's important

630
00:35:01,516 --> 00:35:03,936
Speaker 2: for me to take these tunes onto the instrument that

631
00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:07,156
Speaker 2: it was made for and then have those discoveries play

632
00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:10,416
Speaker 2: with a musician from Africa. There's no guarantee that he's

633
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:12,886
Speaker 2: going to feel a certain way because like music has

634
00:35:12,926 --> 00:35:16,706
Speaker 2: moved on. But he's also interested in what did they

635
00:35:16,766 --> 00:35:19,906
Speaker 2: play because so many things have been destroyed, you know,

636
00:35:19,946 --> 00:35:23,796
Speaker 2: in Congo, right? So– We're both making this sort of

637
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,356
Speaker 2: excavation and kind of meeting in the middle, which has

638
00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:28,816
Speaker 2: been really beautiful.

639
00:35:32,846 --> 00:35:34,986
Speaker 1: This brings me to two of the songs in your

640
00:35:35,046 --> 00:35:38,986
Speaker 1: album that you did. And I'm wondering how those traditions

641
00:35:39,066 --> 00:35:41,986
Speaker 1: filtered down. And the first one is Freight Train by

642
00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:45,386
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Cotton. Now, you should tell the story of Elizabeth

643
00:35:45,406 --> 00:35:47,936
Speaker 1: Cotton because anybody who plays the guitar had to play

644
00:35:47,976 --> 00:35:48,956
Speaker 1: Freight Train at some point.

645
00:35:49,236 --> 00:35:53,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that interesting? Isn't that interesting? Like she's left-handed.

646
00:35:54,016 --> 00:35:57,696
Speaker 2: She played the guitar upside down and backwards, backwards to us, right?

647
00:35:57,836 --> 00:35:58,256
Speaker 2: Right for her.

648
00:35:58,436 --> 00:35:58,596
Speaker 3: Right.

649
00:35:58,636 --> 00:36:01,836
Speaker 2: But the, the thing, the strings are swapped, you know,

650
00:36:01,916 --> 00:36:05,616
Speaker 2: so nobody, you can't really play like her exactly.

651
00:36:06,316 --> 00:36:08,136
Speaker 1: You know, I have no idea how she played. Yeah.

652
00:36:08,376 --> 00:36:11,056
Speaker 2: She's amazing. You know, she played guitar. I think she

653
00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:13,436
Speaker 2: also played banjo when she was younger, but I do

654
00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:16,666
Speaker 2: know that she went into domestic service and ended up,

655
00:36:17,436 --> 00:36:19,276
Speaker 2: you know, working for the Seeger family, which is like,

656
00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:21,676
Speaker 2: If you're going to go into domestic service as a

657
00:36:22,216 --> 00:36:26,276
Speaker 2: priceless treasure of folk guitar, go to the singers because

658
00:36:26,316 --> 00:36:28,616
Speaker 2: then they'll immediately say, please go play the guitar and

659
00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:30,536
Speaker 2: stop working for us, which is what they did, Mike

660
00:36:30,576 --> 00:36:33,736
Speaker 2: and Peggy in particular. I'm very grateful for that while

661
00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:37,416
Speaker 2: also acknowledging that it's what a terrible thing that she

662
00:36:37,456 --> 00:36:40,436
Speaker 2: had to go into service and not play guitar because

663
00:36:40,746 --> 00:36:44,206
Speaker 2: so many women played in the home, but there was

664
00:36:44,246 --> 00:36:48,506
Speaker 2: no outlet for them professionally. So she kind of galvanized

665
00:36:48,566 --> 00:36:51,566
Speaker 2: so many guitarists during the folk revival, like just with

666
00:36:51,606 --> 00:36:54,446
Speaker 2: her style. And she's so North Carolina, rooted in North

667
00:36:54,466 --> 00:36:56,546
Speaker 2: Carolina and her playing. And also, I think because she

668
00:36:56,586 --> 00:36:59,126
Speaker 2: hadn't played for a while, it's an older style of

669
00:36:59,186 --> 00:37:01,566
Speaker 2: playing that I think people hadn't really been exposed to.

670
00:37:01,586 --> 00:37:04,496
Speaker 2: I mean, this is just me kind of thinking about it.

671
00:37:04,506 --> 00:37:07,476
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a scholar of Elizabeth Cotton. And

672
00:37:07,776 --> 00:37:10,876
Speaker 2: to think that that tune made the round, that's why

673
00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:14,416
Speaker 2: I never sang it. Because I'm like, everybody does freight train,

674
00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:17,526
Speaker 2: like we don't need to do freight train. I did

675
00:37:17,566 --> 00:37:19,946
Speaker 2: Shake Sugary, you know, when I recorded one of her tunes.

676
00:37:20,006 --> 00:37:22,506
Speaker 2: I've done Oh Baby, It Ain't No Lie. But it

677
00:37:22,546 --> 00:37:25,006
Speaker 2: just kind of was like, well, maybe it's time. And,

678
00:37:25,026 --> 00:37:28,086
Speaker 2: you know, Dirk is an amazing guitarist, and he has

679
00:37:28,186 --> 00:37:32,386
Speaker 2: such an affinity and feel for that style. And what

680
00:37:32,446 --> 00:37:34,966
Speaker 2: was really interesting is last night we actually performed it

681
00:37:35,166 --> 00:37:38,816
Speaker 2: with Michelle Dorrance, who's from Chapel Hill, and she has

682
00:37:38,856 --> 00:37:42,336
Speaker 2: lineage of, like, you know, John D. Holman and that

683
00:37:42,416 --> 00:37:45,816
Speaker 2: kind of, percussive dance that's very rooted in, in the

684
00:37:45,856 --> 00:37:48,096
Speaker 2: Piedmont of North Carolina. And we actually did it all

685
00:37:48,136 --> 00:37:52,696
Speaker 2: together last night. It was really special. Like talk about

686
00:37:52,736 --> 00:37:55,156
Speaker 2: rooting it in place, you know, here, here we are

687
00:37:55,176 --> 00:37:57,416
Speaker 2: in New York, but like there's, you know, I mean,

688
00:37:57,536 --> 00:38:00,356
Speaker 2: Dirk's very rooted in these traditions and I'm obviously, you know,

689
00:38:00,376 --> 00:38:02,256
Speaker 2: both of us from North Carolina, me and Michelle and

690
00:38:02,676 --> 00:38:05,156
Speaker 2: rooted in, in the, the dance and the music of

691
00:38:05,196 --> 00:38:08,936
Speaker 2: that area. And it really makes me think about how

692
00:38:08,996 --> 00:38:11,376
Speaker 2: little we do that. You know, it's like, I don't

693
00:38:11,396 --> 00:38:14,396
Speaker 2: need to play the old time music. of the country.

694
00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:18,116
Speaker 2: I play North Carolina music, you know, and like, that's

695
00:38:18,136 --> 00:38:21,336
Speaker 2: what we used to do. Like people didn't move all

696
00:38:21,396 --> 00:38:23,216
Speaker 2: the time, you know, so they would be in one

697
00:38:23,276 --> 00:38:25,856
Speaker 2: community and they would learn those tunes and they would

698
00:38:25,876 --> 00:38:27,656
Speaker 2: just play those tunes over and over and over again,

699
00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:30,276
Speaker 2: you know, because there was no constant influx. There was,

700
00:38:30,416 --> 00:38:32,936
Speaker 2: there was influx, but it wasn't anywhere near to the

701
00:38:32,976 --> 00:38:37,116
Speaker 2: volume as it is now. So for me, this record

702
00:38:37,336 --> 00:38:40,976
Speaker 2: is really about planting a flag again, as I keep

703
00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:44,936
Speaker 2: planting a flag in North Carolina and going, I'm very

704
00:38:44,996 --> 00:38:48,396
Speaker 2: content to stay here. You know, obviously I play with

705
00:38:48,416 --> 00:38:51,816
Speaker 2: different people. I've got Silk Road. But it's still I'm

706
00:38:51,916 --> 00:38:57,416
Speaker 2: representing North Carolina within the context of those frameworks. So

707
00:38:57,806 --> 00:39:00,586
Speaker 2: when I think about what am I here for, I

708
00:39:01,546 --> 00:39:03,566
Speaker 2: don't need to do all the things. I just need

709
00:39:03,586 --> 00:39:06,766
Speaker 2: to do the things that make me feel like I'm

710
00:39:06,926 --> 00:39:10,416
Speaker 2: offering something that is rooted, you know, in place. Even

711
00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:13,926
Speaker 2: though I don't live in North Carolina anymore, I– am

712
00:39:14,086 --> 00:39:14,946
Speaker 2: of North Carolina.

713
00:39:15,886 --> 00:39:19,206
Speaker 1: What I love about your version, and maybe it's Dirk's playing,

714
00:39:19,736 --> 00:39:24,576
Speaker 1: is how syncopated it is. Now hers is too. When

715
00:39:24,596 --> 00:39:26,296
Speaker 1: I went back and listened to it, I thought, you know,

716
00:39:26,316 --> 00:39:28,936
Speaker 1: I never really heard it that way. And I thought,

717
00:39:29,176 --> 00:39:32,266
Speaker 1: this is embarrassing. I've never heard any of her other songs.

718
00:39:33,026 --> 00:39:35,546
Speaker 1: So I started listening to her. She made a live album.

719
00:39:35,606 --> 00:39:38,446
Speaker 1: She did an album that the Seegers helped her make.

720
00:39:38,966 --> 00:39:42,016
Speaker 1: And her playing is so much more eccentric and so

721
00:39:42,076 --> 00:39:43,156
Speaker 1: much more syncopated.

722
00:39:43,196 --> 00:39:43,416
Speaker 4: Yes.

723
00:39:43,856 --> 00:39:48,056
Speaker 1: It has a completely different feel. Is that the Piedmont tradition?

724
00:39:48,936 --> 00:39:50,616
Speaker 1: Is that her? Where does that come from?

725
00:39:51,136 --> 00:39:54,546
Speaker 2: I mean, I think so. Again, it's not my area

726
00:39:54,566 --> 00:39:57,546
Speaker 2: of expertise, you know. but that's what I've heard. You know,

727
00:39:57,586 --> 00:40:00,396
Speaker 2: Piedmont style blues is, you know, it's hard to know

728
00:40:00,476 --> 00:40:03,776
Speaker 2: sometimes what somebody's just called something, something, and then it

729
00:40:03,816 --> 00:40:07,136
Speaker 2: becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? So I can't really speak

730
00:40:07,176 --> 00:40:09,536
Speaker 2: to the guitar too much. But, you know, when you

731
00:40:09,556 --> 00:40:12,016
Speaker 2: think about Etta Baker, who was in Morganton, which is

732
00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:16,396
Speaker 2: like right next to the Piedmont, you know, that style

733
00:40:16,456 --> 00:40:20,646
Speaker 2: is very much that's syncopated, which itself is like, I think,

734
00:40:20,686 --> 00:40:23,426
Speaker 2: very probably banjo influenced. You know, this is just me

735
00:40:23,446 --> 00:40:25,926
Speaker 2: talking now. Don't quote me on this, but You know,

736
00:40:25,946 --> 00:40:28,446
Speaker 2: like Scott Joplin's parents played the banjo. He played the

737
00:40:28,486 --> 00:40:32,326
Speaker 2: banjo as well. Like those early rags were almost like

738
00:40:32,606 --> 00:40:34,836
Speaker 2: I think some of the early rags were recorded on banjo,

739
00:40:34,856 --> 00:40:37,536
Speaker 2: you know. So it's like the banjo has a fifth string.

740
00:40:37,836 --> 00:40:41,816
Speaker 2: It is naturally a syncopated instrument. Like it has to be,

741
00:40:41,996 --> 00:40:46,896
Speaker 2: you know. But Libba Cotton is, I think, such an

742
00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:49,536
Speaker 2: influence on people. And it's really interesting, your experience, because

743
00:40:49,556 --> 00:40:51,956
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of taken for granted at this point.

744
00:40:52,566 --> 00:40:54,706
Speaker 2: And you kind of went back and listened to it

745
00:40:54,766 --> 00:40:56,766
Speaker 2: with kind of fresh ears. Like, what is it that

746
00:40:56,806 --> 00:40:58,966
Speaker 2: she's doing? And then you can hear why people were

747
00:40:59,006 --> 00:41:02,246
Speaker 2: freaking out about what she was playing because it's just

748
00:41:02,266 --> 00:41:06,646
Speaker 2: like that's something that eventually kind of will get cleaned

749
00:41:06,766 --> 00:41:10,026
Speaker 2: up and sort of regulated and sort of turned into

750
00:41:10,046 --> 00:41:14,106
Speaker 2: a style. And how much of it is because she

751
00:41:14,146 --> 00:41:16,756
Speaker 2: hadn't been playing, so she was kind of in amber

752
00:41:17,176 --> 00:41:19,616
Speaker 2: of how she used to play before or whatever. It

753
00:41:19,636 --> 00:41:22,376
Speaker 2: doesn't really matter. But it is a really special thing.

754
00:41:23,116 --> 00:41:26,936
Speaker 2: So Dirk has a very idiomatic and very kind of

755
00:41:27,196 --> 00:41:31,646
Speaker 2: dynamic style, which I think, you know, represents it while

756
00:41:31,726 --> 00:41:33,236
Speaker 2: still being his own playing.

757
00:41:33,436 --> 00:41:37,466
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Another song you play is the Ola Belle Reed,

758
00:41:38,566 --> 00:41:42,166
Speaker 1: who you describe as this great, great songwriter from North Carolina.

759
00:41:42,186 --> 00:41:43,106
Speaker 1: So tell me about that.

760
00:41:43,386 --> 00:41:48,306
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, she's just cool. Like, I did her Ruby,

761
00:41:48,366 --> 00:41:49,906
Speaker 2: Are You Mad at Your Man? I think that's the

762
00:41:49,966 --> 00:41:50,726
Speaker 2: Ola Belle Reed song.

763
00:41:50,746 --> 00:41:50,886
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

764
00:41:51,276 --> 00:41:53,736
Speaker 2: And she just had this knack of making these songs

765
00:41:53,756 --> 00:41:57,256
Speaker 2: that sound like they've been around forever. Her and Hazel

766
00:41:57,276 --> 00:42:04,016
Speaker 2: Dickens and Alice Gerard, these women just rooted in the community,

767
00:42:04,096 --> 00:42:06,916
Speaker 2: the life, the music, and who can just make these

768
00:42:06,956 --> 00:42:10,176
Speaker 2: incredible songs. So yeah, it was just a great opportunity.

769
00:42:10,196 --> 00:42:14,136
Speaker 2: I had the guys to do it, to make a

770
00:42:14,476 --> 00:42:17,056
Speaker 2: version that kind of pulls on that high lonesome sound.

771
00:42:17,496 --> 00:42:22,046
Speaker 2: My dad's side of the My family are obviously white

772
00:42:22,226 --> 00:42:25,856
Speaker 2: and from the Piedmont area. Piedmont means foot of the

773
00:42:25,896 --> 00:42:29,696
Speaker 2: hill or foot of the mountain. So we're right next

774
00:42:29,736 --> 00:42:35,196
Speaker 2: to Appalachia. So there's a lot of overlap. And the sounds,

775
00:42:35,216 --> 00:42:37,716
Speaker 2: I always kind of was like, why does that sound

776
00:42:37,896 --> 00:42:40,646
Speaker 2: draw me? I've done a lot of Sheila K. Adams'

777
00:42:41,546 --> 00:42:45,166
Speaker 2: family's songs. She's a friend of mine and a wonderful

778
00:42:45,206 --> 00:42:49,406
Speaker 2: ballad carrier. But that high lonesome sound is something that's

779
00:42:49,526 --> 00:42:52,306
Speaker 2: never been hard for me to get, you know? I mean,

780
00:42:52,346 --> 00:42:55,126
Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of, like, old country and bluegrass

781
00:42:55,166 --> 00:42:57,146
Speaker 2: and stuff. My uncle was in a bluegrass band. So

782
00:42:57,166 --> 00:43:00,556
Speaker 2: it's been a part of my cultural upbringing. But also

783
00:43:00,656 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, like, you know, I was just on

784
00:43:03,456 --> 00:43:08,016
Speaker 2: Finding Your Roots. Like, so many folks from, like, you know,

785
00:43:08,036 --> 00:43:10,436
Speaker 2: that frame of mind, you know what I mean? So

786
00:43:10,506 --> 00:43:12,866
Speaker 2: it's just kind of like. It's just great to just

787
00:43:12,906 --> 00:43:14,816
Speaker 2: lean into it and go, I am a product of

788
00:43:14,876 --> 00:43:17,196
Speaker 2: all of these things, you know, and I'm not going

789
00:43:17,216 --> 00:43:18,146
Speaker 2: to apologize for it.

790
00:43:18,876 --> 00:43:21,496
Speaker 1: They're a great song. And another one, you go back

791
00:43:21,536 --> 00:43:24,036
Speaker 1: to listen to her album, she's like, she's such a

792
00:43:24,076 --> 00:43:26,516
Speaker 1: character on her song. Yeah. The way she introduces them.

793
00:43:26,556 --> 00:43:26,916
Speaker 2: Yeah.

794
00:43:27,216 --> 00:43:31,956
Speaker 1: She's very funny. She's always talking to the audience. It's very,

795
00:43:32,296 --> 00:43:35,556
Speaker 1: I think both those experiences for me were really sort

796
00:43:35,636 --> 00:43:36,236
Speaker 1: of disarming.

797
00:43:36,576 --> 00:43:37,476
Speaker 3: Oh, I love that. Yeah.

798
00:43:37,736 --> 00:43:38,036
Speaker 2: Cool.

799
00:43:38,116 --> 00:43:38,696
Speaker 1: It was wonderful.

800
00:43:39,036 --> 00:43:39,556
Speaker 2: Glad I can help.

801
00:43:40,986 --> 00:43:42,306
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about some of the other

802
00:43:42,326 --> 00:43:45,126
Speaker 1: songs you did. You duet with your sister. You do

803
00:43:45,766 --> 00:43:48,316
Speaker 1: Chuck Old Hen. You do a classic. And it just

804
00:43:48,336 --> 00:43:50,616
Speaker 1: becomes a great, I don't know if you'd call it

805
00:43:50,696 --> 00:43:53,196
Speaker 1: bluegrass or porch music. I don't know what you'd call it.

806
00:43:53,256 --> 00:43:54,196
Speaker 2: Porch music works.

807
00:43:54,416 --> 00:43:54,576
Speaker 3: Yeah.

808
00:43:54,596 --> 00:43:58,896
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I always say, like, we would

809
00:43:58,936 --> 00:43:59,666
Speaker 2: call that old time.

810
00:44:00,006 --> 00:44:00,206
Speaker 1: Yeah.

811
00:44:00,286 --> 00:44:03,006
Speaker 2: You know, it's Climber Banjo. I mean, I hate to

812
00:44:03,046 --> 00:44:06,776
Speaker 2: get too label-y, but. Because everything is called bluegrass these days,

813
00:44:07,516 --> 00:44:09,966
Speaker 2: I kind of just say bluegrass is a commercial art

814
00:44:09,986 --> 00:44:13,286
Speaker 2: form that came about in the 1940s and 50s, and

815
00:44:13,326 --> 00:44:15,746
Speaker 2: it is based on older forms of music. And it

816
00:44:15,786 --> 00:44:19,066
Speaker 2: has solos, and it's a performance music. It doesn't mean

817
00:44:19,086 --> 00:44:21,306
Speaker 2: you can't dance to it, but it's really meant for performing,

818
00:44:21,326 --> 00:44:24,696
Speaker 2: whereas old time is a community music, and that's different.

819
00:44:24,756 --> 00:44:27,476
Speaker 2: You make the music together. It's trance music. It's not

820
00:44:27,536 --> 00:44:30,576
Speaker 2: really meant to be put on performance stages. Now, the

821
00:44:30,616 --> 00:44:33,316
Speaker 2: Chocolate Drops figured out ways to do that, you know,

822
00:44:33,436 --> 00:44:35,656
Speaker 2: because we were doing, we were, we had a mission, but,

823
00:44:36,336 --> 00:44:38,736
Speaker 2: you know, Cluck Old Hen is a dance tune. And

824
00:44:38,776 --> 00:44:40,696
Speaker 2: so that's why, you know, we included all the kind

825
00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:44,916
Speaker 2: of chatter, you know, because it's like, that's how it was.

826
00:44:44,956 --> 00:44:46,936
Speaker 2: We just like got, we just sat down and we're like,

827
00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:49,116
Speaker 2: all right, let's rip one out. Like, you know.

828
00:44:49,136 --> 00:44:50,136
Speaker 1: It sounded like fun.

829
00:44:50,336 --> 00:44:51,836
Speaker 2: It was super fun, you know.

830
00:44:52,096 --> 00:44:54,636
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about writing, first of all,

831
00:44:54,656 --> 00:44:57,886
Speaker 1: Carolina Rain, which is, which is I guess as close

832
00:44:57,906 --> 00:45:00,166
Speaker 1: as you get to what would I call a pop tune.

833
00:45:00,466 --> 00:45:01,106
Speaker 1: It's got drums.

834
00:45:01,286 --> 00:45:05,976
Speaker 2: It's got drums. Yeah. It's a fun song. It's one

835
00:45:06,006 --> 00:45:09,536
Speaker 2: that Dirk and I wrote some years ago. And it's

836
00:45:09,556 --> 00:45:14,696
Speaker 2: a kind of reminder for me that you can inhabit

837
00:45:14,736 --> 00:45:18,296
Speaker 2: different kinds of songs, you know, and it doesn't mean

838
00:45:18,336 --> 00:45:20,676
Speaker 2: that that's all I'm going to do. you know, for

839
00:45:20,696 --> 00:45:23,196
Speaker 2: my next record, right? It's just, I can visit. I

840
00:45:24,056 --> 00:45:26,816
Speaker 2: can visit and then go back to my corner, you know?

841
00:45:26,996 --> 00:45:29,416
Speaker 1: You've never, I mean, you did, you know, you played

842
00:45:29,486 --> 00:45:33,306
Speaker 1: on the Beyonce record. It's not tempting to say, what

843
00:45:33,346 --> 00:45:37,006
Speaker 1: would that look like if I did something that was

844
00:45:37,226 --> 00:45:38,706
Speaker 1: closer to the pop direction?

845
00:45:39,026 --> 00:45:39,286
Speaker 2: No.

846
00:45:39,846 --> 00:45:39,986
Speaker 3: No?

847
00:45:40,166 --> 00:45:42,976
Speaker 2: I mean, we did You're the One, which is kind

848
00:45:42,996 --> 00:45:45,496
Speaker 2: of the closest I've ever been. You know, I worked

849
00:45:45,556 --> 00:45:49,016
Speaker 2: with a producer who's much more in that world, lovely guy.

850
00:45:49,836 --> 00:45:52,636
Speaker 2: and it was still, you know, rooted in what I do,

851
00:45:53,236 --> 00:45:56,756
Speaker 2: but I don't know. I just think there's so many

852
00:45:56,816 --> 00:46:00,126
Speaker 2: people in the world making songs. So many people making

853
00:46:00,166 --> 00:46:03,646
Speaker 2: pop songs. Does anybody need me to do that? I

854
00:46:03,686 --> 00:46:06,486
Speaker 2: don't think so. You know what I mean? Like, I just,

855
00:46:06,526 --> 00:46:10,346
Speaker 2: I'm not interested. So I don't really write personal songs

856
00:46:10,386 --> 00:46:13,396
Speaker 2: very much because I'm just like, I am not interesting.

857
00:46:14,176 --> 00:46:17,276
Speaker 2: What I do is interesting. My life is not interesting,

858
00:46:17,676 --> 00:46:20,476
Speaker 2: you know? And it's, There's people who write songs that

859
00:46:20,496 --> 00:46:23,596
Speaker 2: are personal, that people draw great comfort from. And it's

860
00:46:23,696 --> 00:46:25,496
Speaker 2: not to say that I don't think that should happen.

861
00:46:26,096 --> 00:46:29,106
Speaker 2: I don't need to do it. I've enjoyed my share

862
00:46:29,126 --> 00:46:32,276
Speaker 2: of pop music. But like I said, I don't think

863
00:46:32,296 --> 00:46:34,686
Speaker 2: that's my strength. So I just don't want to waste

864
00:46:34,726 --> 00:46:37,566
Speaker 2: any time chasing something. For what reason? Like if I

865
00:46:38,086 --> 00:46:39,946
Speaker 2: really wanted to make a pop song, I would do

866
00:46:40,006 --> 00:46:42,546
Speaker 2: it just because I wanted to make it. But I

867
00:46:43,766 --> 00:46:46,826
Speaker 2: don't need to try to find more followers and more

868
00:46:46,846 --> 00:46:51,216
Speaker 2: fans by... appealing to a more mainstream, whatever that is,

869
00:46:51,316 --> 00:46:53,236
Speaker 2: since I just want to stick to what I'm doing.

870
00:46:53,736 --> 00:46:57,706
Speaker 1: That's an interesting question. You know, you talk about people

871
00:46:57,756 --> 00:46:59,986
Speaker 1: draw a lot from certain kinds of, you know, pop

872
00:47:00,026 --> 00:47:05,126
Speaker 1: songs or opera or anything else you've explored. What do

873
00:47:05,186 --> 00:47:06,666
Speaker 1: you think people draw from your music?

874
00:47:08,486 --> 00:47:09,206
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

875
00:47:09,226 --> 00:47:15,416
Speaker 3: I think a sense of connection, because I'm always connecting

876
00:47:15,436 --> 00:47:19,306
Speaker 3: to like what came before thinking about what's coming.

877
00:47:19,966 --> 00:47:23,946
Speaker 2: I try to present an emotional conduit for folks. I

878
00:47:23,966 --> 00:47:27,026
Speaker 2: feel like that is really what we're for, artists. And

879
00:47:27,166 --> 00:47:30,926
Speaker 2: if we're performers, I feel like it is that way

880
00:47:30,966 --> 00:47:35,086
Speaker 2: to help people touch their own sense of the infinite.

881
00:47:35,786 --> 00:47:38,066
Speaker 2: And then they can take that away and maybe they

882
00:47:38,086 --> 00:47:41,356
Speaker 2: want to do something with that. Because it shouldn't just

883
00:47:41,396 --> 00:47:45,116
Speaker 2: be a one-time thing. It should be something that makes

884
00:47:45,136 --> 00:47:48,496
Speaker 2: people makes us want to do something. Like when I'm touched,

885
00:47:48,536 --> 00:47:53,096
Speaker 2: when I watch somebody play, I'm inspired to go do more,

886
00:47:53,676 --> 00:47:55,236
Speaker 2: you know? And that's what I want for people. I

887
00:47:55,476 --> 00:47:57,076
Speaker 2: want people to pick up the banjo. I want them

888
00:47:57,116 --> 00:47:58,936
Speaker 2: to pick up... Even somebody was like, I'm going to

889
00:47:58,956 --> 00:48:00,936
Speaker 2: get a concertina. I'm like, oh my God, that's amazing.

890
00:48:00,956 --> 00:48:03,016
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? That's what I want people

891
00:48:03,056 --> 00:48:04,876
Speaker 2: to sing. I want them to go get a book

892
00:48:05,216 --> 00:48:08,696
Speaker 2: and read up on something. I'm not interested in being

893
00:48:08,736 --> 00:48:11,636
Speaker 2: the end terminus, you know? I want it to be

894
00:48:11,676 --> 00:48:12,186
Speaker 2: the beginning.

895
00:48:12,206 --> 00:48:12,316
Speaker 3: So....

896
00:48:13,966 --> 00:48:17,106
Speaker 2: I just, you know, follow my muse or follow what

897
00:48:17,126 --> 00:48:20,536
Speaker 2: I think I'm supposed to do. And whoever is touched

898
00:48:20,616 --> 00:48:23,776
Speaker 2: by that comes along for the ride. It's not going

899
00:48:23,796 --> 00:48:26,116
Speaker 2: to be for everybody. And that's okay.

900
00:48:27,276 --> 00:48:30,296
Speaker 1: Because you talk about being a conduit for things in

901
00:48:30,316 --> 00:48:35,656
Speaker 1: the past. And that's a tricky thing to do. You're smiling.

902
00:48:36,596 --> 00:48:41,166
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking particularly you did the opera, Omar,

903
00:48:41,426 --> 00:48:44,196
Speaker 1: which won the Pulitzer Prize. Well-deserved.

904
00:48:44,216 --> 00:48:44,936
Speaker 2: Thank you.

905
00:48:45,616 --> 00:48:47,576
Speaker 1: A lot like this book, you were pulling from very

906
00:48:47,656 --> 00:48:50,596
Speaker 1: fragmentary sources. In the case, Omar, now, he had written

907
00:48:50,936 --> 00:48:53,356
Speaker 1: his life story. He had a narrative written in Arabic.

908
00:48:53,576 --> 00:48:58,766
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, which has many layers to that, but yes.

909
00:48:59,006 --> 00:49:01,786
Speaker 1: But you had to fill in things around it, which

910
00:49:01,846 --> 00:49:06,226
Speaker 1: is a tricky situation to be in because Omar, who

911
00:49:06,246 --> 00:49:11,946
Speaker 1: was an enslaved Muslim from … Senegal. He was from Senegal.

912
00:49:12,796 --> 00:49:17,146
Speaker 1: That's not a story that's been accurately told throughout history.

913
00:49:17,606 --> 00:49:20,346
Speaker 1: And so you have this story you want to tell.

914
00:49:21,466 --> 00:49:23,586
Speaker 1: You want to tell it accurately, but you want to

915
00:49:23,626 --> 00:49:28,466
Speaker 1: tell it imaginatively as well, which means sometimes, as you

916
00:49:28,486 --> 00:49:31,486
Speaker 1: head to in this book, filling in some of the gaps.

917
00:49:31,786 --> 00:49:34,816
Speaker 2: The thing is, like, history is a creative endeavor always

918
00:49:35,996 --> 00:49:39,916
Speaker 2: because we were not there. So it's always a creative endeavor,

919
00:49:39,976 --> 00:49:42,576
Speaker 2: and the people who I respect and trust the most

920
00:49:42,796 --> 00:49:45,576
Speaker 2: are the ones who admit that. These are the facts

921
00:49:45,616 --> 00:49:49,266
Speaker 2: as we know them. Everything else is supposition. You know

922
00:49:49,286 --> 00:49:49,546
Speaker 2: what I mean?

923
00:49:49,566 --> 00:49:49,986
Speaker 3: Right.

924
00:49:50,326 --> 00:49:52,226
Speaker 2: And even the facts can be.

925
00:49:52,106 --> 00:49:53,746
Speaker 1: Incorrect, right?

926
00:49:53,826 --> 00:49:53,986
Speaker 3: Yeah.

927
00:49:54,446 --> 00:49:58,826
Speaker 2: What portrait is this from the Elizabethan area? Like even

928
00:49:59,046 --> 00:50:01,246
Speaker 2: stuff like that where you'd go, of course it's this person,

929
00:50:01,286 --> 00:50:04,606
Speaker 2: but we find out it's actually somebody completely different like

930
00:50:04,746 --> 00:50:08,066
Speaker 2: hundreds of years after the fact, right? So for me,

931
00:50:08,206 --> 00:50:12,566
Speaker 2: like something like Omar, which already is so layered, Islam

932
00:50:12,646 --> 00:50:15,846
Speaker 2: itself is a colonizer religion that would have replaced the

933
00:50:15,906 --> 00:50:18,816
Speaker 2: native religions that were in the area. to begin with, right?

934
00:50:19,196 --> 00:50:22,516
Speaker 2: So Omar is learning Arabic to read the Quran. That

935
00:50:22,576 --> 00:50:26,436
Speaker 2: is not his cultural language. His cultural language would have been,

936
00:50:26,506 --> 00:50:30,726
Speaker 2: I don't know, Fula or Wolof or whatever, right? Some variation,

937
00:50:30,766 --> 00:50:32,566
Speaker 2: he probably would have had three or four languages that

938
00:50:32,586 --> 00:50:35,666
Speaker 2: he knew, which most people do in that area. So

939
00:50:36,626 --> 00:50:40,986
Speaker 2: even the words that he wrote, he didn't learn Arabic

940
00:50:41,006 --> 00:50:43,686
Speaker 2: to write an autobiography. He learned Arabic to read the Quran.

941
00:50:44,226 --> 00:50:47,836
Speaker 2: So when you read what he wrote, so that's Number

942
00:50:47,976 --> 00:50:50,356
Speaker 2: one is going through that lens. Number two, he's got

943
00:50:50,396 --> 00:50:53,536
Speaker 2: his enslavers looking over his shoulder. They can't read it,

944
00:50:53,576 --> 00:50:57,436
Speaker 2: but somebody will, right? Somebody will translate it. So what

945
00:50:57,656 --> 00:51:01,146
Speaker 2: does he feel like he can say? You know what

946
00:51:01,166 --> 00:51:03,106
Speaker 2: I mean? So there's all of these layers that go

947
00:51:03,146 --> 00:51:06,226
Speaker 2: into it even before I set eyes on it and

948
00:51:06,406 --> 00:51:09,806
Speaker 2: decide to turn it into something. And, you know, shout

949
00:51:09,826 --> 00:51:13,176
Speaker 2: out to the Spoleto Festival for, you know, commissioning me,

950
00:51:13,236 --> 00:51:17,456
Speaker 2: and I brought Michael Ables into it. absolute priceless collaborator.

951
00:51:17,496 --> 00:51:19,456
Speaker 2: It was, like, the best thing I've done in my career.

952
00:51:20,016 --> 00:51:23,816
Speaker 2: Just bringing it in. But thinking about whenever I ran

953
00:51:23,836 --> 00:51:26,236
Speaker 2: into a wall of, like, what am I doing? Like,

954
00:51:26,276 --> 00:51:31,346
Speaker 2: I'm just, like, I'm this American woman, like, who's non-denominational. Like,

955
00:51:31,386 --> 00:51:34,466
Speaker 2: why am I telling this story? I kept going back

956
00:51:34,506 --> 00:51:40,226
Speaker 2: to his words and his choice of Quranic verses. His

957
00:51:40,326 --> 00:51:42,786
Speaker 2: choice of verses actually became the way that he was

958
00:51:42,846 --> 00:51:43,386
Speaker 2: talking to me.

959
00:51:44,166 --> 00:51:44,286
Speaker 3: Hmm.

960
00:51:45,056 --> 00:51:48,526
Speaker 2: Because he was very deliberate in his choice of what

961
00:51:48,566 --> 00:51:51,726
Speaker 2: he quoted because he was in a very dangerous position.

962
00:51:52,246 --> 00:51:55,866
Speaker 2: He had to be seen to convert. He was like

963
00:51:55,866 --> 00:52:00,546
Speaker 2: 50 years. He's doing this walk. It's insane not being

964
00:52:00,586 --> 00:52:03,006
Speaker 2: able to connect back to his community. So what does

965
00:52:03,026 --> 00:52:05,826
Speaker 2: he choose to hold on to? That's how he talks

966
00:52:05,866 --> 00:52:11,526
Speaker 2: to us. And any time I got lost or frustrated,

967
00:52:11,586 --> 00:52:16,696
Speaker 2: I just went back to that. and thought about what

968
00:52:16,716 --> 00:52:20,796
Speaker 2: is it that's going to allow what I feel like,

969
00:52:21,116 --> 00:52:26,506
Speaker 2: what I've gained from his writings. It was a very spiritual,

970
00:52:27,286 --> 00:52:31,506
Speaker 2: intense process that I don't still understand to this day.

971
00:52:31,526 --> 00:52:33,526
Speaker 2: There's some stuff I like read it, like, because I

972
00:52:33,566 --> 00:52:35,946
Speaker 2: wrote the libretto. There's some stuff that I read and

973
00:52:35,966 --> 00:52:38,686
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't even know how I wrote that.

974
00:52:39,996 --> 00:52:42,816
Speaker 2: I'm so steeped in the history, of course, you know,

975
00:52:44,016 --> 00:52:46,316
Speaker 2: But still, it was just like, wow. And that's the

976
00:52:46,356 --> 00:52:50,036
Speaker 2: kind of stuff that gives me hope, you know, because

977
00:52:50,056 --> 00:52:53,716
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm so honored to have brought that into

978
00:52:53,736 --> 00:52:55,996
Speaker 2: the world and to have found the right collaborators and

979
00:52:56,056 --> 00:52:59,096
Speaker 2: all of that. That is when I'm reminded of this

980
00:52:59,176 --> 00:53:02,316
Speaker 2: is not about me and it's never about me. And

981
00:53:02,596 --> 00:53:05,316
Speaker 2: for me, the best stuff has nothing to do with me.

982
00:53:06,836 --> 00:53:09,976
Speaker 1: OK, well, hope is the thing with feathers is some

983
00:53:10,006 --> 00:53:12,856
Speaker 1: of your best stuff. Thank you so much for coming in.

984
00:53:12,936 --> 00:53:15,506
Speaker 1: Everybody should listen to your album. Everybody should buy your book.

985
00:53:16,226 --> 00:53:17,946
Speaker 1: And then they should go out and buy a concertina.

986
00:53:18,246 --> 00:53:19,066
Speaker 2: Yeah.

987
00:53:20,046 --> 00:53:21,286
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming in.

988
00:53:21,966 --> 00:53:22,486
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

989
00:53:22,486 --> 00:53:22,986
Speaker 1: It was wonderful.

990
00:53:26,046 --> 00:53:28,306
Speaker 4: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with

991
00:53:28,366 --> 00:53:31,566
Speaker 4: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

992
00:53:31,706 --> 00:53:35,486
Speaker 4: is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

993
00:53:35,786 --> 00:53:38,206
Speaker 4: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

994
00:53:38,226 --> 00:53:41,766
Speaker 4: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

995
00:53:41,786 --> 00:53:45,406
Speaker 4: that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month.

996
00:53:45,706 --> 00:53:49,046
Speaker 4: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if

997
00:53:49,066 --> 00:53:51,186
Speaker 4: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

998
00:53:51,226 --> 00:53:53,676
Speaker 4: review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by

999
00:53:53,716 --> 00:53:55,296
Speaker 4: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.