1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: Joe McCormick and Robert I want to ask you about 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: a Greek myth, you know, the myth of tiffan Us. 6 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: This is not one that I am am readily familiar 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: with off the tof of my head. Well, it's one 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: of those great ones with doomed lovers. Doomed lovers just fantastic. Yeah, 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: is there does a god show up and act particularly 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: crappy towards mortals? Uh not. I don't know if it's 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: on purpose. You do get Zeus being a jerk, but 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: it might be like he's a jerk by accident, or 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: maybe he's a jerk on purpose. It's kind of hard 14 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: to tell because being a jerk is kind of Zeus 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: is default thing in general. Yeah, Zeus in this myth 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: acts kind of like the Monkeys Paul and the classic 17 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: short story where you get the wish but not quite 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: in the way you wanted it. So here's how it goes. 19 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: And this is the version that's in the Homeric Hymn 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: to Aphrodite So the myth involves the goddess aos Aus 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: is the goddess of Dawn, and she falls in love 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: with a mortal man from Troy named Tiffanus. And this 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: is horrible, right, It's horrible for a goddess to fall 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: in love with a mortal because while the gods may 25 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: live eternally, dining on the ambrosia and just going on 26 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: into the future, of course, mortal people, as the name implies, 27 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: will die. And she hates this idea. She hates the 28 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: idea that the man she's fallen in love with will 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: someday die while she gets to go on living forever. 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: She can't bear the thought of it. So she goes 31 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: to Zeus and she makes a request, well you grant 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: my lover, Tiffannus, eternal life, and Zeus does it. Usually, 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, usually Zeus is a jerk, but here he's like, yes, yes, 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: I will do that for you. Aos. Well, maybe he 35 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: was busy and he's just like, okay, yeah, I'll just 36 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: go ahead and check this off the list because I've 37 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: I've got this, uh, this other torment in mind for 38 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: another mortal, right, don't have time to be a jerk. 39 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: Just bam eternal life, you will not perish and die 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: like the other mortals. But then it takes a dark turn. 41 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: So let me read from the translation of the home 42 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: Eric him to Aphrodite, And this is translated by Hugh 43 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: Evelyn White quote. So also golden throned Aos wrapped away 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: tithan Us, who was of your race and like the 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: deathless gods. And she went to ask the dark clouded 46 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: son of Chronos that he should be deathless and live eternally. 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: And Zeus bowed his head to her prayer and fulfilled 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: her desire. Okay, so he's granting the wish. Too simple, 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: was queenly Aos. She thought not in her heart to 50 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: ask youth for him and to strip him of the 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: slough of deadly age. So while he enjoyed the sweet 52 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: flower of life, he lived rapturously with golden throned Aos, 53 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: that early born by the streams of ocean at the 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: ends of the earth. But when the first gray hairs 55 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: began to ripple from his comely head and noble chin, 56 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: queenly Aos kept away from his bed, though she cherished 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: him in her house and nourished him with food and ambrosia, 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: and gave him rich clothing, but when loathsome old age 59 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: pressed full upon him, and he could not move nor 60 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: lift his limbs. This seemed to her in her heart 61 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: the best counsel. She laid him in a room and 62 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: put to the shining doors. There he babbles endlessly, and 63 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: no more has strength at all such as once he 64 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: had in his supple limbs. M Okay, well, this makes 65 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: me think Zeus probably just agreed to her request because 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: all the gods know that mortals are going to ask 67 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: for immortality at some point or the other, and it's 68 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: probably not going to phrase the question properly, and you 69 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: should let them have it because it will teach them 70 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: a lesson. Well, yeah, he'll learn when he's old and 71 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: babbling and decrepit but cannot die. Because global myth cycles 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: are filled with stories of of immortality gone wrong. You know, 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: it's either a wandering immortal who's doomed or or lovers 74 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: who you know, obtain a portion of immortality and it's mishandled. 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: There's a there's a wonderful example of this in the 76 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: in Chinese myth with the the Elixir of Immortality and 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: the and the Woman of the Moon. Oh does it 78 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: come back to bite her or come back to bite 79 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: the person who wants it um it gets. There are 80 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: a few different versions of the tale, but essentially, you know, 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: one person is immortal and the other is not. That 82 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: sort of thing this this this mismatch that we see 83 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: president in the Greek tale as well. Man, why are 84 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: there so many myths and folk tales where people get 85 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: punished for wanting better than their lot in life? Well, 86 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: because you can't have it, I mean, especially when it 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: comes to things like avoiding death and avoiding aging. You're 88 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: not gonna get it. So there's something refreshing about stories 89 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: in which people do get it, and it backfires because 90 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: that way we think, oh, well, this this thing that 91 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: I cannot have is actually not that great, So thank goodness, 92 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to grow old and die. Yeah. I wonder 93 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: if it makes you feel like you're not so bad off. 94 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: It's like, well, I'm gonna die one day, but I 95 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: could be like Tiffanius and that's even worse. Exactly, So, 96 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: I think the myth is sort of an embodiment of 97 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: this cruel fact about human nature. It's not just that, 98 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: as they say in Bravos, all men must die, but 99 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: that all people must decline. I think Warren Zevon put 100 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: it best. He said time treats everybody like a fool. 101 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 1: And I think that's the case. And no amount of lawyers, guns, 102 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: or money will get you out of this, that's right. 103 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: So on one hand, you've got the idea of death. 104 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,239 Speaker 1: And death is a sort of unavoidable fact about biology 105 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: because living organisms are these finely tuned factories of chemical reactions. 106 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: And if you make substantial changes to the factory, say 107 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: by jamming a rock through part of it, or biting 108 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: part of it off, or filling it up with parasites 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: that come up all the gears, the factory isn't gonna 110 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: work the same anymore. It might not work at all 111 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: were physical creatures were subject to physical disruption. So the 112 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: potential for death is unavoidable. It's sort of part of 113 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: what it means to be alive. But aging not quite 114 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: so much. This steady time correlated decline in our biological fitness. 115 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: Why does that have to happen? That's not physically inevitable 116 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: in the same way that death is. Yes, and this 117 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: is going to be the question we're gonna be discussing 118 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: in this pair of episodes. Now we do want to 119 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: drive home. We're not going to get as much into 120 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: some of the mechanics of aging, like we're not going 121 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: to get into telomeres and telomerase and all and all 122 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: of that, although that's a wonderfully insightful topic onto itself. 123 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking more about the these this sort 124 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: of evolutionary function of aging, if it has one, right, 125 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: aging is something that has such a cost for the 126 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: organisms that undergo it, like tiffanus. What pays for it biologically? 127 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: Why does it exist? Now? To underscore the fact that 128 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: aging is not necessarily something that is inevitable, and especially 129 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: not aging as early as we do, we should maybe 130 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: look at some organisms that do not age in the 131 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: same way we do. Yeah, they're there are a number 132 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: of organisms. I'm sure a number of them come to 133 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: to everyone's mind here. You think of ancient hoary tortoises 134 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: stumbling across the the ground, right, or perhaps your mind 135 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: turns to the greenland shark. Will come back to that 136 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: one in a second. But really one of the more 137 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: insightful examples here is the hydra, or at least individuals 138 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: in the hydra genus. So you're talking about the monster 139 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: that gets its head cut off and grows two more. No, 140 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: as much as I do love the mythical hydra, now 141 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: these are the natural world hydras, tiny tentacle creatures that 142 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: need to continue to wow scientists because they they have 143 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: a number of just wonderfully bizarre and monstrous capability. So 144 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: they can reproduce through a sexual butting. They have these 145 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: mouths that open up kind of like wounds in their 146 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: body and then close. There's some fabulous videos of them 147 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: doing that. It looks like you're staring into the mouth 148 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: of hell. And they have this seemingly natural inability to grow, 149 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: grow old, and die of natural causes. They boast low 150 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: mortality rates throughout their lives and apparently this is according 151 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: to one Dr Owen Jones from the University of Southern Denmark. 152 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: He has claimed that it would take four hundred years 153 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: for of a hydro population to die of natural causes 154 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: in the lab. Wow, well, well that's a hardy species. Yeah, 155 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: So let me let me back some of that up 156 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: here with with some more facts about the life of 157 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: the hydra. So their fertility rates remain constant their entire lives, which, 158 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: as will discuss, is is pretty unique and according to 159 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: um Pomona College biology researcher Professor Daniel Martinez. He has 160 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: repeatedly found no evidence of sinescence in laboratory caddled hydra. Yeah, 161 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: and he even goes so far as to state that 162 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: an individual hydra can live forever under the right laboratory circumstances. Well, now, 163 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: of course that's the catch, right. The hydra's natural environment 164 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: offers sufficient hostilities to make natural death by old age 165 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: and impossibility. You got disease, predators, water contamination. These are 166 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: the things that usually kill a hydra off in due time, 167 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: and likewise, scientists have yet to create a hydra utopia 168 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: that can sustain them indefinitely. Now, this is a good 169 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: point in the use of the word immortality, which sometimes 170 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: comes up when people are covering organisms like these. There 171 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: are a couple of different ways you could look at immortality. 172 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: One would be the Highlander version or something like that, 173 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: where there's just like nothing that can kill you except 174 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: maybe one or two little things, but that you are 175 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: generally invulnerable to death. And then there'd be a different 176 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: version of immortality that says, yeah, you're vulnerable to death 177 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: by injury or disease. You just don't naturally grow old 178 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: and die. You don't have a cap on your lifespan. 179 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: That would be more like, what are are the elves 180 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: of Middle Earth? Kind of like that, like they can 181 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: be killed in battle, but they don't grow old and die. Yeah. Well, 182 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: I mean I would argue that the immortals of Highlander 183 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: are much the same, Like there's a there's a very 184 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: specific thing you can do to kill them. Uh, and 185 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: technically anyone can do it. It's just you've got to 186 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: get the drop on them. Right. We should mention that 187 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: we're popping in little references to Highlander to get you 188 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: ready for the fact that one day soon we're going 189 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: to do a Science of Highlander two episode and I'm 190 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: not kidding. Yeah, you have advanced warnings so you can 191 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: all go review at least the first two films. Well, 192 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: I would say just the first two films actually, Okay, 193 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: But back to the hydra and biological immortality in the 194 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: real world. Yeah, so this is a major point really 195 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: for all organisms. The natural world is generally sufficient to 196 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: ensure mortality. It's dangerous, it's filled with competitors, predators, pathogens, accidents, 197 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: and all manner of additional hazards. Now, humans and their 198 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: captives tend to live in a very privileged space, largely 199 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: removed from the threat of predation. At least you'll find 200 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: other creatures with no natural predators as well. Typically these 201 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: are apex predators, but that doesn't mean they don't have 202 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: to deal with all these other dangers. Well. No, when 203 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: you think about an apex predator, just because there's nothing 204 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: that tackles it and tears it apart and eats it, 205 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's not subject to attacks from 206 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: its environment, right. I mean, it of course is subject 207 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: to disease. But one of the other things to think 208 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: about with an apex predator is these creatures are very 209 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: often constantly at the edge of starvation. And so when 210 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: you see the antelope running from the cheetah or something, 211 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: of course the cheetahs trying to kill the antelope, but 212 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: by escaping, the antelope is sort of also trying to 213 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: kill the cheetah. It is starving the cheetah to death 214 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: by a escaping. The cheat is a great example too, 215 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: because either cheetah injures itself in the pursuit of a prey, 216 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: especially if it tackles prey that is a little beyond 217 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: its ability or or is potentially beyond its ability. It 218 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: can sustain an injury that results in death, not because 219 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: it becomes infected or what have you, but because say, 220 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: a wounded limb on a cheetah can mean it cannot 221 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: pursue prey and it starves. Right, This is another thing 222 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: we often fail to appreciate in the natural world is 223 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: how how absolutely damning a small injury can be to 224 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: an organism that has to hunt or escape hunters to survive. 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: You also, of course have read about large cats that 226 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: have turned man killer and uh in some of these cases, 227 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: if remember correctly, sometimes it has to do with the 228 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: decline of dental health, like that their their inability to 229 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: depend on their their teeth for their traditional prey and 230 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: it leads to sort of a desperate switch in their 231 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: their selection of prey. So anyway, most most individuals are 232 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: going to die or be killed before they can grow old, 233 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: so there's already a low probability of being alive and 234 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: reproductive at an advanced stage. Still, hyders are are really 235 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: interesting because it give us a real world of the 236 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: world example of how how undying creatures would work on 237 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: a biological level. They're hardy, they're regenerative. They have they 238 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: have evolved to thrive in the harsh environments, and it 239 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 1: actually reminds me of an alien species that shows up 240 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: in an Ian em banks. The Culture series, of course, 241 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: go into the Culture Yeah, I mean he he always 242 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: managed to work so many wonderful scientific topics into his 243 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: his books, and one of these topics is biological immortality. Alright, 244 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: So we meet in the really the very first Culture book, 245 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: we meet the Dherens. And here's just a quick quote. 246 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: The Adherens themselves had evolved on their planet a deer 247 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: as the top monster from a whole planet full of monsters. 248 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: The frenetic and savage ecology of a deer in its 249 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: early days had long since disappeared, and so had all 250 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: the other homeworld monsters except those in zoos. But the 251 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Adherens had retained the intelligence that made them winners, as 252 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: well as the biological immortality, which, due to the viciousness 253 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: of the fight for survival back then, not to mention, 254 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,479 Speaker 1: a deer's high radiation levels had been an evolutionary advantage 255 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: rather than a recipe for stag nation. Now, I think 256 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: that might be something interesting to come back to maybe 257 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: in the second episode and consider whether it would actually 258 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: work that way and what the effect of high mortality 259 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: at different stages of life would have on the life 260 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: span of an organism. Alright, well, on that note, let's 261 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're 262 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: gonna roll through just a few other long living organisms, 263 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: uh that are not a hydra or an adheran. Thank 264 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: thank Alright, we're back. So I mentioned the greenland shark earlier. 265 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: This one is pretty impressive because greenland sharks live where 266 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: we understand now about four hundred years uh. And this 267 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: is an exclusively wild species as well. This is not 268 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: something you're gonna find growing old and fat in an aquarium. 269 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: These are sharks generally don't do very well in aquariums. Correct, yeahs, 270 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: And no one has a greenland shark that I am 271 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: aware of as of this recording. At two thousand sixteen, 272 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: University of Copenhagen study estimated that one female greenland shark 273 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: uh had it was it was at least four hundred 274 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: years old, and that the species doesn't even reach sexual 275 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: maturity until one d and fifty. So think of that, 276 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: not until they've reached an age that exceeds every human 277 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: being who has ever lived, and that's counting unverified but 278 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: not mythic individual humans, right, not the Highlanders or you know, 279 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: like you know, biblical days. Right. Yeah. Now, of course 280 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: that's still not the oldest animal because there was a 281 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: clam named me. Was this the first line of a 282 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: children's book? I know it should be, well, I would be. 283 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: I would actually be surprised if there's not a children's 284 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: book about Ming. There was a clam named Ming. Yeah, 285 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: and Ming did love to sing. Yeah. This here it 286 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: rights itself. So technically Ming was a qua hog clam. 287 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: This is um, an Arctic variety of clam, and it 288 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: was discovered off the coast of Iceland in two thousand 289 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: and six. Now, at the time they thought it was 290 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: around four hundred and five years old, so they named 291 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: it after the Ming dynasty that would have ruled China 292 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: at this time. Later estimates, and this is supported by 293 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: carbon dating, would boost that age to five hundred and 294 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: seven years half a millennium. So this means that the 295 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: creature was born in fourteen and that's still within the 296 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: Ming dynasty, which went to four And to throw another 297 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: point of context in there, this was around the time 298 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: that Leonardo da Vinci completed the Last Supper. It's the 299 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: year Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama reached India. That's when 300 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: this this thing was was born and then it died. 301 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, there was a clam named Ming, 302 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: and Ming remembered everything. There you go now the plant 303 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: where the world of course has all of this beat. Uh. 304 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: There's the great Basin bristle cone Pine or Pinus long gava, 305 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: and it can only lived to over five thousand years 306 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: of age, and that takes us back to the very 307 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: end of the Neolithic period. Work on Stonehenge had begun. 308 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: This was the age of the Pharaoh, so it lived 309 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: through the rise and the fall of the Roman Empire. Now, 310 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: of course this highlights that different kinds of organisms have 311 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: massively different potential when it comes to life span. Yeah, 312 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: and of course plants are very different from animals. This 313 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: reminds me that one of the ideas that was brought 314 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: up recently. I believe on our discussion module on Facebook 315 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: or Facebook group, that we should do something just on plants, 316 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: like what is a plant? To sort of strip it 317 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: down to its basics. I kind of like that idea. 318 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: It's a really lazy animal. Well I've got a really 319 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: lazy one then for you here, Uh, there's at least 320 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: one step beyond the great base in Bristle Cone Pine. 321 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: And this is something you'll find in fish Lake National 322 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: Park in Utah here in the United States. Uh, the 323 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: quaking aspen tree, which is also the state tree by 324 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: the way, also known as the trembling Giant or pando, 325 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: which means I spread. So what we have here, and 326 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: this is this is one where not everybody necessarily agrees with. 327 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: This might be sort of bending the definition a little 328 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: bit of what is a long living organism. But what 329 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: we have here is a single clone of quaking aspen 330 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: connected by a single extensive roots system that's roughly the 331 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: size of Vatican City, a hundred and six acres, thirteen 332 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: million pounds, and it's all eighty thousand years old. So 333 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: what you're talking about is a forest that is all 334 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: sort of in some way the same organism, right, you could. 335 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: It's it's not as simple as the clam was born 336 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: in this century and it died in this one. But 337 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: if you if you've been the deaf Issian enough and 338 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: you accept this as an example, we're talking about a 339 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: thing that has lived since humans first left Africa to 340 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: colonized the world. Wow. Yeah, now, Robert, here's something I've 341 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: always wondered about dinosaurs. You got to wonder how long 342 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: they lived, especially because this gets warped by our sense 343 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: of history. I think, because they lived so long ago, 344 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: you just naturally go to this completely illogical place where 345 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: they must have lived a long time. Like, Okay, tyrannosaurs 346 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: Rex lived maybe three hundred years. I mean they got 347 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: they got very big, so you have to imagine it 348 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: took them a while to grow as big as they did. 349 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: This would take a lot of years of eating and 350 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: cell division and all that. So so so surely they 351 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: had very long lifespans. Well, this used to be the 352 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: main theory. And this was in part because of either 353 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: size or at least the size of many of the specimens, 354 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: and the fact that we thought, well, they were essentially 355 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: giant reptiles, and so based on slow reptile growth rates 356 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: and their size, they said, well, big dinos probably lived 357 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: several hundred years. But today paleontolo just believed they grew 358 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: more like birds and mammals, and this cuts back on 359 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: their lifespans somewhat. So for instance, the Field Museum of Chicago, 360 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: they have this, uh, this these t rex remains that 361 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: they named Sue. Sue. She is great. Yeah, she's a 362 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: wonderful specimen. You get to look right up at her 363 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,719 Speaker 1: and get a sense of the true size of this, 364 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: this amazing species. Can I say something embarrassing? Go for it. 365 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: I cried a little bit at Sue. Yeah, I'm not kidding. 366 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: When we were in Chicago and I'm just sitting there 367 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: looking at Sue for a while, I did something to me, 368 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: like a little misty. That's that's beautiful. I I can 369 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: understand it because it is like looking back in time 370 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: to encounter, you know, a fossil like that. So Sue 371 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: is a rather big specimen, or at least the fossil 372 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: remains are rather large and speak to a large specimen. 373 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: They We think now that she probably achieved adult size 374 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: at age twenty and lived to a ripe old age 375 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: of twenty. Wow, so I am now older than than 376 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: this Tyrannosaurus rex was when it dies exactly. Yeah, and uh, 377 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: and it just underlines that what you had with the 378 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: dinosaurs was likely rapid growth but short lives. Now, one 379 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: sort of side question that we won't fully explore. But 380 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: this this may raise the question, well, dinosaurs have cancer 381 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 1: because you're thinking about rapid growth, right of course. Well, 382 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: basically this is the question we have to come back to. 383 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 1: But based on the research I was looking at, we 384 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: only have evidence of the hadrosaurs, the duck build dinosaurs 385 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: developing any form of cancer. Now that's the caveat that's 386 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: the only the only ones we have evidence of that 387 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: that occurring in. But it is interesting to think of 388 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: like the late model dinosaur as being the place where 389 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: we see the cancer showing up. We gotta come back 390 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: and do an episode on dinosaur cancer in the future. Yeah, 391 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: by all means, well, I want to do something that 392 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: we often end up having to do, which is that 393 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: after we've explored a concept for a while, it becomes 394 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: more and more complicated and our lay definition starts to 395 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: get a little less useful. So I think maybe we 396 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: should ask the question what actually is aging? Now? We 397 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: we have a pretty uh intuitive, gut level understanding of 398 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: what aging is. We know when we see it, But 399 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: how would you define it? I mean, it's it is 400 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: something different from death, and it is something different from 401 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: just like, I don't know your skin getting wrinkles or 402 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: something like that. What what is the actual scientific thing 403 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: that all of the stuff we call aging has in common. Well, 404 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: this is a great question. I mean, on one hand, 405 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: it is closely tied to death, and I think one 406 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: of the stumbling blocks is that will will alreadily admit 407 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: that aging is something that our body does, but we 408 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: tend there's tends to tend to be a cultural barrier 409 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: in place to saying that death is something our body does. 410 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: We like to push that off onto some sort of 411 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: external force of of fade or anthropomorphy, eyes dread, you know, 412 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: or some sort of limit imposed on us by the gods. Well, yeah, yeah, 413 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: death is something that we more often characterize as happening 414 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: to us. Death happens to you. It's not something you do. Though. 415 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: There you can kind of see that the division between 416 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: the death and the aging death I was talking about 417 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: at the beginning of this episode comes into focus, because 418 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: of course, death can happen to you if you get 419 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: a rock jammed through your you know, through your body 420 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: or something like that. But the body does seem to 421 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: naturally progress toward death over time. And that's kind of 422 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: a weird question, like why would it do that. We 423 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: will definitely explore the science behind that question in the 424 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: second episode that we will look at some archaic answers 425 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: to it in this one, because when especially with the human, 426 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: with the human experience of aging and death, it seems 427 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: completely illogical that in many cases a human being would 428 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 1: spend the majority of its life progressing towards death, like 429 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: the majority of your life. His decline, Uh, that just 430 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: feels either gross or cruel or just like a horrible 431 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: design flaw, or yeah, or nonsensical. But where's my eternal 432 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: youth doesn't make any sense? Um. So in his nine 433 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: book The Evolutionary Biology of Aging, published by Oxford University Press, 434 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: the biologist Michael R. Rose defined aging in the following 435 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: way quote a persistent decline in the age specific fitness 436 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: components of an organism due to internal physiological deterioration. Now 437 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: Rose actually has offered has said that in some ways 438 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: we might need to update that understanding a little bit 439 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: to accommodate for some new discoveries. But I think this 440 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: is a good place to start. So let's look at 441 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: the parts of that definition. Number one, it's persistent decline, 442 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: which means aging only goes one way. It's not characterized 443 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: by say decline and rebound, and some organisms do have 444 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: patterns like this, it is not quite aging, like you 445 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: can think about the jellyfish that have regenerative capabilities where 446 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: they can revert to a younger stage of life. But 447 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: then so it's persistent decline. And then in the quote 448 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: age specific fitness components biological fitness meaning the ability to 449 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: survive and reproduce. So these are the things that are 450 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: persistently in decline. You become less able to survive and 451 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: less able to reproduce. And then it's due to internal 452 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: physiological deterioration. So it's saying that this persistent decline in 453 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: the ability to survive and reproduce is not due to 454 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: disease or injury, but to something deteriorating within the body 455 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: tissues themselves. Yeah, this is this makes me think, of course, 456 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: of the phrase cradle to the grave and with it 457 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: with the hydra. The cradle to the grave is kind 458 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: of a straight line with reproduction taking place at all 459 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: levels until something happens to kill it. Whereas most of 460 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: them models that that we look at, most of the 461 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: models we looked at in researching this episode, it's more 462 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: of a of a rise rising and lowering. There's a 463 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: rise towards like peak sexual maturity, peak reproductive maturity, and 464 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: then a decline. Yeah uh yeah, And then it gets 465 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: even stickier, right because we we've just tried to be 466 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: very careful and how we're defining this. But then I 467 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: realized that I said the it's a decline in the 468 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: ability to survive and reproduce, not due to disease or injury. 469 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: But a lot of the things that are the characteristic 470 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: signals of aging are sometimes thought of as diseases, even 471 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: though maybe they're not caused by say a germ or something. Uh. 472 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: There are all kinds of things like diabetes melitas, or 473 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: like rheumatoid arthritis that are totally characteristic signs of aging 474 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: and human beings, and they're thought of as diseases, but 475 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: they're not so much something that gets done to the 476 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: body by external forces. There are a thing that happens 477 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: when the body is around for a long time under 478 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: certain conditions. It makes me think back to our episode 479 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: on Chinese immortality and about the the idea of the 480 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: the older body being kind of an alien body, Like 481 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: it's a different biology we're changing into a different being 482 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: with different physical characteristics. Generally characterists that that leaned towards 483 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 1: towards weakness. Absolutely, But then again, you can also look 484 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: at aging through the microscope, look at it on the 485 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: cellular level, and this is where you'll often see people 486 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: using words like sinescence. Defined by by Nature's scientific glossary quote, 487 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: senescence is the process by which sells irreversibly stop dividing 488 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: and inter a state of permanent growth arrest without undergoing 489 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: cell death. Senescence can be induced by unrepaired DNA damage 490 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: or other cellular stresses. So this is looking at it 491 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: on the microscopic level and saying in essence, often used 492 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: as as a synonym for aging, happens when the cells 493 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: stop making new rejuvenated cells. This is kind of the 494 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: lack of upkeep keep model. It's the idea that well, 495 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: the house is falling apart because nobody's working on it, 496 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: nobody's maintaining, or at least the maintenance has really been 497 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: scaled back or it's all. It's it's been my experience 498 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: thus far with aging that you find the maintenance requests 499 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: are are kind of rolled out in in a logical 500 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: way where you're you're like, you may think to yourself, well, 501 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: why am I still sore from this injury I sustained 502 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: last month? But my my, what my body is really 503 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: trying to do is like grow a bunch of nose hair. 504 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: You know, It's like, why why is that the the 505 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: main operative that's been passed down to my body? You know, 506 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: everything is beginning to get out of whack. It's as 507 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: if it's as if there's nobody in charge anymore. Uh, 508 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: and they're just letting the house fall apart. Yeah. If 509 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: you were the super tendon of an apartment building, it 510 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: would be like, there's a water leak in the basement 511 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: that has not been fixed for months, and your repair 512 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: person is busy building hundreds of kitchen cabinets on the roof. 513 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And you think, well, in the old days, 514 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: we we didn't have all these kitchen cabinets on the roof, 515 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: and things got fixed. Why did things not got to 516 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: get fixed anymore? That is a great question, and I 517 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: guess we should try to look at some answers to 518 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: that when we come back from this next break. Thank alright, 519 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: we're back, all right, So let's look at some historical 520 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: and lay answers to the question why do we age? 521 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: What's the point? Why does it happen? One common example 522 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: that seems to make sense to people is the idea 523 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: that our body is, over time quote get worn out. Uh. 524 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: So in his nine seven paper Pleotropy, Natural Selection and 525 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: the Evolution of Senescence, which we will definitely come back 526 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: to in the second episode, here, the American biologist George C. 527 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: Williams pointed out that one problem explaining the true biological 528 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: reason behind aging is that many people think they already 529 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: understand what aging is and why it happens, and they're wrong. 530 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: They're wrong. But if you think you've already got the answer, 531 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: you'll never go asking the question and writing of these 532 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: kind of folk explanations for aging. He says, quote the 533 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: most injurious of these is the identification of sinescence with 534 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: the quote wearing out that is shown by human artifacts. 535 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: And doesn't this seem very sensical? Right? Our tools get 536 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: worn out over time. If you use a knife a 537 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: whole lot, eventually it'll lose the sharpness of its blade. 538 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: Uh any tool you use too much. I'm thinking about 539 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: a broom that we used to have for years around 540 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: our house that eventually got worn down to nubs. There 541 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: were just really no bristles on it anymore. Shouldn't our 542 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: bodies be the same. This reminds me I've had to 543 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: explain this to my my son recently, where he'll get 544 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: some sort of cheap toy, you know, as a prize 545 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: or something, and he'll be really into it. I'll have 546 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: to explain to him that this is not the sort 547 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: of toy that lasts very long. You know, toys like 548 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: this may last a week or so, and and he's like, no, 549 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: if some some toys last forever. And I'm like, well, 550 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't really, And you have to try 551 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: to explain how pretty much everything that is made by 552 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 1: man is going to fall apart. Okay, after I finished 553 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: my children's book about ming the Clam, I'm writing a 554 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: second children's book called Toys Die. What it reminds me 555 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: of the short story that that A I was was 556 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: based on. Oh yeah, I forget the exact title, but 557 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: to believe it was super Toys Last All Summer, which 558 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: I always thought was a rather fun title. That is great, 559 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: but knowing knowing that we also know that they won't 560 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: last forever, like you, like you say, so, going back 561 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: to what Williams wrote, quote, A moment of serious consideration 562 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: should convince a biologist of the fundamental dissimilarity between these 563 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: two processes, meaning the body wearing out and tools wearing out. 564 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: The breakdown of human artifacts is strictly mechanical and is 565 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: readily cured by mechanical repairs. The system is a static one, 566 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: since the same material is continuously present and there is 567 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: no endogenous change with the passage of time. An organism, 568 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is an open system in a 569 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: state of material flux. Even such structures as bones maintain 570 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: constant exchanges with the environment. Moreover, an organism produces itself 571 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: by a morphogenetic process. It is indeed remarkable that after 572 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: a seemingly miraculous feat of morphogenesis, and that means like 573 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: growing into the adult shape, a metazoan should be unable 574 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: to perform the much simpler task of merely maintaining what 575 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: is already formed. I think this is a fantastic point. 576 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't make sense to say we get 577 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: old because over time our bodies just get worn out, 578 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: because our bodies have the ability to rejuvenate tissues. They 579 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: built tissues in the first place. They could just keep 580 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: building them as long as they wanted. Yeah, I mean, 581 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: I think part of this is the I mean part 582 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: of it is just that we are so close to 583 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: the aging process. We experience it, and we see it 584 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: in others. Uh, We're almost too close to it to 585 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: have an objective view of it. And then to your point, 586 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: we're informed by what happens to our tools. And then 587 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: I also they're tying into the experience as well, and 588 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: the wearing out of things. I think dental health has 589 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: a has a huge impact on it because we observe 590 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: this happening with our very teeth, the teeth of others 591 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: that you get that those adult teeth in and those 592 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: are the ones you're gonna have for the rest of 593 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: your life as long as you can keep them. You know, 594 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: they are going to wear out, and unlike other organisms, 595 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: there's not going to be an additional h set there 596 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: that are going to lock into place. Third children's book 597 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: for when children get their baby teeth knocked out, it's 598 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: called this is your Last Chance. Yeah. I've actually heard 599 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: uh parents, I think half joking, we talk about not 600 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: worrying with brushing that much for young children because now 601 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: they're gonna gore gonna get that second pit. You know 602 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: they're gonna be These are not even These are just 603 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: the baby teeth. Wait till the adult teeth come in 604 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: and then start worrying. Yeah. Now, beyond these simple folk explanations, 605 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: we know that there have been lots of thinkers throughout 606 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: history who must have tried to explain why aging happens 607 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: before we had modern modern genetics to really understand the 608 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: true mechanisms. Right, Yeah, this is you know, aging is 609 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: part of the human experience, and so some of the 610 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: great thinkers and human history have pondered it. We have 611 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: a few examples here to run through. For instance, Lucretius 612 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: through fifty five b c uh he wrote about it 613 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: in his text on the Nature of Things, and he 614 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: argued that aging and death are beneficial because they make 615 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: room for the next generation. This is probably another folk 616 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: explanation a lot of people would employ. Right, totally seems 617 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: to make sense. You can't just keep living forever because 618 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: you've gotta make room for the next generation. Yeah. It 619 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 1: especially makes a sort of sense, I think for human 620 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: populations when you have, say, individuals who have over the 621 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: course of their lifetime accumulated certain benefits and powers and possessions, 622 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: and then the idea as well, when they fall away, 623 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: those resources spread to someone else, you know, I mean 624 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: we we we have always lived in a world of 625 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: of finite resources. And I want to be clear, it 626 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: is good that that happens. The next generations actually do 627 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: benefit from the fact that older generations grow old and die. Uh, 628 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: But there are some serious problems with thinking about this 629 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: as the reason biologically that they grow old and die. Yeah. 630 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: Though this this observation persisted well up into the twentieth century. 631 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: For instance, nineteenth century German biologist August Weissmann also believe 632 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,280 Speaker 1: that the death mechanism created room for the next generation 633 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: of young to thrive at And you know, I have 634 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: to men as well that I always it always always 635 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of felt this was the case, you know, at 636 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: a gut level, without putting a lot of serious thought 637 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: behind it. Oh yeah, before I investigated this, I assumed 638 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: something along these lines. But then I started to doubt 639 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: myself because I was like, oh, wait a minute, that's 640 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: group selection, and I always feel iffy about that. The 641 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: problem here is pointed out by Daniel Fabian of the 642 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: Institute of Population Genetics in in the publication nature is 643 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: that quote, the cost of death to individuals likely exceeds 644 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: the benefit to the group or species. And because long 645 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: lived individuals leave more offspring than short lived individuals given 646 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: equivalent reproductive output, selection would not favor such a death mechanism. Yeah. 647 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: This is one of the classic arguments against any kind 648 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: of group level selection influence. And we can revisit this 649 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: in more detail in the second episode. Now, of course, 650 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: another great thinker is Aristotle, right, yeah, and he of 651 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: course wrote about this as well in on Longevity and 652 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: Shortness of Life. Aristotle tell us how it is all right? Well, 653 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: before I go get going here, I do want to 654 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:08,919 Speaker 1: point out I I am going to be the last 655 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: person to to criticize Aristotle. Uh uh. I feel like 656 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: he uh he did did a lot with the wisdom 657 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: of the day, obviously, and that's an understatement. Uh, but 658 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: he was not able. We're not going to take the 659 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: opinion that Aristotle was dumb though I was talking. I 660 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: was actually talking about this with my my wife last 661 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: night when I was running through the material I'm about 662 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: to uh to relate here, and she said, well, that 663 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: would actually make a wonderful like BuzzFeed style article like 664 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: six things that dummy Aristotle got wrong. I mean, he 665 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: got a lot of stuff wrong, but I mean everybody 666 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 1: in the ancient world did. Yeah, I mean he people 667 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: just didn't know what we knew today, right, And he 668 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: was attempting and attempting to figure it out. He threw 669 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: out a number of hypotheses that were not They did 670 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: not shake out. So here are just a few quotes 671 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: from the work that will give you an idea of 672 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: where he was going the re sa since for some 673 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: animals being long lived and other short lived, and in 674 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: a word, causes of the length and brevity of life, 675 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 1: call for investigation. Fair enough, same question we're asking why 676 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: does it happen? And then he goes on to say 677 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,959 Speaker 1: race is inhabiting warm countries have longer life, those living 678 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: in cold climates have a shorter time. Likewise, there are 679 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 1: similar differences among individuals occupying the same locality. I don't 680 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: know if that's true. I mean, we already touched on 681 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: the greenland shark, and I think we've gone more in 682 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: depth in the greenland shark in the past on this show. 683 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 1: But part of it is its environment, which is quite cold. Uh. 684 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: He also commented on the connection between the soul and 685 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: the body. The soul must stand in a different case 686 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: in respect of its union with the body. And then 687 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: this at least rings true, hints to all things are 688 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: at all times in a state of transition and are 689 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: coming into being and passing away. Okay, so this could 690 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: be interpreted to mean something kind of like the fact 691 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: that we're constantly undergoing cell division and our bodies maintain 692 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: them I mean, obviously Aristotle didn't know this, but that 693 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: our bodies maintain themselves through cell division and repair of tissues. Yes. 694 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: And then there's this quote speaking generally, the longest lived 695 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: things occur among the plants, uh, example of the date palm. Next, 696 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: in order we find them among the sanguineous animals rather 697 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: than among the bloodless, and among those with feet rather 698 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: than among the denizens of the water. Hence, taking these 699 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: two characters together, the longest lived animals fall among sanguineous 700 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: animals which have feet. Uh. Men and elephants. Well, clearly 701 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: we've learned how to make your aquarium fish live longer. 702 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: You transplant some feet onto them. Uh. This at least 703 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: as good quote. As a matter of fact. Also, it 704 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: is a general rule that the larger live longer than 705 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: the smaller. For the other long lived animals to happen 706 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: to be of a large size are also those I 707 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: have mentioned. Now, I'm sure this is not hard and 708 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: fast rule, though I think there are probably some weak 709 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: correlations along these lines. I think so. I mean, we 710 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: already touched on the dinosaur thing, but but certainly there 711 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: are some examples of rather large animals that have longer 712 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: lifespans within typical longevity. Now Aristotle's working theory, though, is 713 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: that all of it revolves around moisture in an organism. Yes, quote, 714 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: we must remember that an animal is by nature human 715 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: and warm, and to live is to be of such 716 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: a constitution, while old age is dry and cold, and 717 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: so is a corpse. I think Aristotle also tried to 718 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: explain earthquakes by way of moisture, maybe misremembering them. And 719 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 1: he also said that aquatic animals don't count here because 720 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: they're not humid. Their watery and quote watery moisture is 721 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: easily destroyed since it is cold and readily congealed. And finally, 722 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 1: he also throws in four in animals, the males are 723 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: in general the longer lived. I don't think that's true either. Yeah, 724 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: I believe in in in in many cases it is 725 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: the it is the female that lives longer, certainly in humans, 726 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: though that may be more pronounced in cases where we 727 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: have been removed from the like when we've got modern 728 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: medical care, because, for example, there is a lot of 729 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: natural mortality during childbearing. So I don't know, you can 730 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: maybe a point for Aristotle, there maybe a point for 731 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: modern science. We'll see, um. But anyway, that's that's that's 732 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: what Aristotle had to say in the matter. And uh, 733 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: and I like, I say, it's it's it's fascinating to 734 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: look back on his writings and see how he's working 735 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 1: this all out totally. So in the end, I think 736 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: we're still left with this biological paradox of aging. Once 737 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: we think about aging in a biological context, it's sort 738 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: of fails to make sense. Evolution selects for genes that 739 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,920 Speaker 1: increase biological fitness, meaning that increase the chances of survival 740 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: and reproduction. Aging is characterized by an organ is m 741 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: level decline in the chances of survival and reproduction. So 742 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: why would organisms that have been evolving for billions of 743 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: years still age, deteriorate, lose the ability to reproduce and 744 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: eventually die. Shouldn't we have evolved to maximize survival and 745 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: reproduction as long as possible. Shouldn't we survive and keep 746 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: making babies until a leopard bites our head off? But 747 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: obviously this is not how things are. So what's the 748 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: answer to this mystery? We'll explore that in the next episode. 749 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: That's right, we have a cliffhanger. Will it be cruel 750 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: twist of fate? Accident? Uh? Biological mechanism that serves a purpose? 751 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll find out maybe our genome has 752 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: been evolving to feed leopards all right. Well, in the meantime, 753 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: while you're waiting for that next episode, head on over 754 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the 755 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,800 Speaker 1: mother ship. That's where you'll find all the podcast episodes. 756 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 1: You'll find videos, blog post links out to our various 757 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Big thanks 758 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: of course to our audio producers Alex Williams and Tory Harrison. 759 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: And if you want to get in touch with us 760 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: directly the old fashioned way, you can do that as 761 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: always by emailing us at blow the Mind at how 762 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com For more on this and thousands 763 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it, how stuff works, dot com