1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie. Hey this is Amantha, and welcome 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: to Stuff. I never told your production of I Heart 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: Radio as how stuff works. Okay, so this episode is 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: about in Cells. Correct. It's been a long time coming. 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: Um and I will admit him a little nervous to 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: talk about it. Um. And before we get into it, 7 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: trigger warning for violence, sexual assault, and rape. So let's 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: just both take a collective breath. Yes, because it is 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: a deep and dark subject. Yeah. Um, but it's something 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: that we've been we have been meaning to talk about 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: it for a while. So, um, let's start with the basics. 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: What is it? What in Cells is a a largely 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: online community of over ten thousand, mostly young men and 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: boys who spew hatred towards women, blaming them for the 15 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: absence of sex in their lives. Um. And yeah, mostly 16 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: that's what goes on. But the other things, other things. Um. 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: Their members live in the US and in Europe and 18 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: on average about or whites, and they have called for 19 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: things like acid attacks and mass rapes, and their ideology, 20 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: which is called the black Pill, essentially means that they 21 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: have rejected women's sexual liberation and realized that that in 22 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,639 Speaker 1: their minds, women are shallow and cruel because they reject 23 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: there being rejected, they're being shallow and cruel. Right. It's 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: derived from the red pill, which is a name taken 25 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: from the scene in the Matrix or Morpheus offers Neo 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: a blue pill to essentially stay asleep, stay stay what 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: is it? Ignorance is bliss um or the red pill 28 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: to wake up to reality? Right, meaning in this case 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: reality the realization that women want high status dudes. Black 30 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Pill followers think their success in the sexual dating relationship 31 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: realm hinges entirely on their looks. What this leads to 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: is a kind of sexual class system. So the most 33 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: attractive men are called Chad's and they make up about 34 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: of society of the men, yes, the population of men 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: right yes, and of women want a Chad according to 36 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: this ideology, and a Chad only so that no nobody 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: else they will only accept a Chad. And they have 38 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: racialized names for Chad too, So there's Tyrone for a 39 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: black man, Shang for an East Asian man, for an 40 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: Arab man, and Chad Preach for an Indian man. And 41 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: the most attractive women Stacy's, will only have sex with Chads. 42 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: So our Stacy's of the women okay, because that seems 43 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: really odd, Like I'm like, wow, they they really have 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: this very high standard or low standard was beautiful women. 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I think all the women are beautiful, 46 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: but I'm not angry at them. Well yeah, and what 47 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: women in the lowest twenty percent range when it comes 48 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: to attractiveness in this whole ideology will have sex with 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: men who are more towards the middle when it comes 50 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: to their attractiveness, and these men are called beta's, cuks 51 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: or normise and below these men at the bottom our 52 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: end cells. And the slang term fimoids or slang for 53 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: that slang floids is used for women. Also, just the 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: side note, makeup is seen as kind of a fraud 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: and if you wear like short shorts and don't like 56 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: being groped, then you deserve death on an exaggeration. So 57 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: so this is the same guys I would think are 58 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: the pickup artists. Yes, the whole idea of you deserve 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: these and if you they don't want you, then they 60 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: are bad people who are are bitches. Yeah yeah, well 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: it's like a grand scheme of like manipulating women right 62 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: based glee into not rejecting you. So in cults are 63 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: kind of like low self esteem guys. Am'm about to 64 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: get I'm about to get cut. Uh. It reminds me 65 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: I used to for some reason. Um, I know I've 66 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: told this story on this show before, but for a while, 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: when I would turn people down, turn men down at 68 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: like bars and clubs, they would always say, if I 69 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: was Brad Pitt, you wouldn't turn me down. And I 70 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: thought it was weird that Brad Pitt was the name. 71 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: Really always Brad Pitt, Chad obviously bad Chad. Um. Yeah, 72 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: anytime I've ever rejected a man, which was not often, 73 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: I didn't get I don't get hit on typically that often, 74 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: but it's usually like you can't make friends, you can't 75 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: just be nice, but you know, like the whole you know, 76 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying. Oh now I'm mad at you, which would 77 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: be along those lines, I would think. And if it 78 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: wasn't clear from the types of Chad's, the various racialized 79 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: types of Chad names that there is a lot of racism, yeah, 80 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: and Semiticism surprised going on in these forms as well, 81 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: Asian women are frequently called noodle horrors. Yeah. Some label 82 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: feminism as a Jewish plot designed to dismantle the Western world. 83 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: So powerful feminism Um, South Asian in cells, but it's 84 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: not working. South Asian in cells call themselves curry cells. 85 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: They called themselves cury cells. Interesting research shows that over 86 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: fifty of all users have used overtly misogynistic language in 87 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: their post. One of the most frequent posters believes feminism 88 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: is a plot to only date top tier men. I mean, 89 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean is that? I mean? Yeah? No, okay. Another 90 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: top poster was behind a thread called why is every 91 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: single woman a Total Bitch? That ended with a call 92 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: for all single women over nineteen to be ground up 93 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: in an industrial which chipper, Um, someone's been watching Fargo 94 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: a little too much. Yeah, you think that's what it is. 95 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: You know, that's the one reference I get. Okay, okay. 96 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: And for most of us who have heard of in cells, 97 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 1: it's probably been through some of these violent acts that 98 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: have happened in the past couple of years. And I'm 99 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: going to try to avoid seeing any of these people's names, 100 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: but here you go. In Santa Barbara, a man who 101 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: identified as an in cell killed nine and injured fourteen, 102 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: and prior to his act of violence, he recorded videos 103 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: blaming women who didn't want to date him. He also 104 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: wrote a one hundred and forty one page manifesto and 105 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: he wanted to start a quote war on women for 106 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: depriving him of sex, and this inspired the hashtag yess 107 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: all women right, um. And it also inspired another killer 108 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: in Florida who similarly released videos detailing his hatred of 109 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: women for killing two women at a yoga facility, and 110 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: some in the in cel community labeled him Saint Yoga Cell. 111 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: And it inspired another man to kill nine people in 112 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: leaving a manifesto blaming women for his virginity and praising 113 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: the killer killers. He's seen as a saint the world 114 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: in that world for for not for everybody, but for 115 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people. And they used his name for 116 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: saying like you should go and do what he did. Um. 117 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: In a self described in cell man in Canada drove 118 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: a van onto a sidewalk and killed ten people and 119 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: injured fourteen. And yeah, the community largely praised him and 120 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: called for more acts of murder. Someone wrote he would 121 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: have a celebratory beer every time. It turned out a 122 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: victim was a woman aged eighteen to thirty five. That 123 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: is very specific. Um. And if we set back a 124 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: bit to a man by the name of Marc Lepine 125 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: went on to inspire the user name of a modern 126 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: day in cell, but with Satan Front. He went into 127 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: a university classroom in Montreal, demanded the men leave the room, 128 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: and killed the nine women who were left, and then 129 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: went on to kill five more women. In the letter 130 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: found after he killed himself, he wrote he was fighting 131 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: feminism and this is the worst mass shooting in Canada's history. 132 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: This would be one of the examples of whye feminism 133 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: is important. Yes, it would be and it is. Um. 134 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: People who study in cells say that while these are 135 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: terrible acts, we shouldn't forget about the more common everyday 136 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: violence that in cell community normalizes and commits as well, 137 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: like sexual harassment, yelling at women, and even targeting ovarian 138 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: and cervical cancer research funds. Then there's other things users 139 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: post about, like injecting seamen into chocolate bars and giving 140 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: them to women. Um, somebody said he did that because 141 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: he thought he had a chance with this woman, but 142 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: it turned out she had a boyfriend because she's a 143 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: total monster. Or sexually assaulting women in public, especially on 144 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: public transit. Right, and then we you and I talked 145 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: about in the previous episodes about semicide, and a lot 146 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: of like some of the deaths that happened are when 147 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: men get rejected and feel like they have right to 148 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: harm or kill that person and or viol that person 149 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: some way in some form. And this will be lack 150 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: exactly in those lines. And some people who who study 151 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: this say that a lot of this these posts are 152 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: just talk because the Internet is a place where you 153 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: can kind of be your worst self. Um, But even so, 154 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: it is a community that celebrates violence against women, Like 155 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: even if it is just talk, it's talk, right, And 156 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: studies have shown and members anecdotally admit that it shapes 157 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: their worldview and makes them angrier and more prone to 158 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and accepting of violence or even harassment. And we've seen 159 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: that it's kind of similar to isis like you get 160 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: radic correct the more mentality in itself. That's exactly what occurring. 161 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: Is they kind of go into their own little world 162 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: and then encourage each other's stupidity and anger and hate. Right. 163 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,839 Speaker 1: But there is a subset of about one hundred men 164 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 1: that actively promote other members to perpetrate sexual violence against women, 165 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of them are associated with the site 166 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: run by a man who tried to kill President George W. 167 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: Bush in two thousand and eight, claims he raped his 168 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: ex wife and Branford Congress in twenty eighteen, Like, did 169 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: he actually get his name on the ballot? I think 170 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: so he dropped out, though I would hope so. He 171 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: doesn't call himself an in cell, but he's a big 172 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: name in the in cell community, and he and his 173 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: followers pushed the rape pill. And here's the definition for 174 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: that um, the understanding that for civilization to survive, fin 175 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: mourines need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose 176 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: is to obey and bear the children of supreme gentlemen, 177 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: such as ourselves supreme gentleman. Yeah, one of their sites, 178 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: with five hundred members, is called Raping Girls is Fun. 179 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: They have tips for how to commit the most effective rapes, 180 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: and as a whole, these sites and the people that 181 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: peruse them believe that women should not have and should 182 00:10:53,280 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: never have had any rights. So, uh, that that's kind 183 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: of what's going on there when we have some more 184 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: like present day stuff, but we also have some history 185 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: about how this in seals um got started. But first 186 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from 187 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: our sponsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So for 188 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: the history is kind of surprising and interesting, and I 189 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: bet a lot of you've heard of it because it 190 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: is surprising and interesting. UM. It goes back to an 191 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: online community that was founded in the nineteen nineties and 192 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: it was a community of shy, lonely people looking for 193 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: other shy, lonely people. Eventually, this loneliness helped gather an 194 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: online community, and they came up with the phrase in 195 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: voluntary celibacy to describe their experience, which was later shortened too. 196 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: I think it was later short too in there was 197 00:11:58,520 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: a V in there, but then it was short and 198 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: in cell. Yes. And one of the first members, who 199 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: now goes by the handle Reformed and Sell, described with 200 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: the community as a quote kind of social justice warrior 201 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: esque place UM Men who didn't know how to talk 202 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: to women would ask questions and female members would answer them. 203 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: And he's sort of a noted historian of the movement 204 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: and how it devolved into what it is today, like 205 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: he's tried to record what what happened. UM. And the 206 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: founder was a queer progressive woman from Canada named Alana. 207 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: Alana thought dating was confusing and scary, and she wasn't 208 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: even quite sure of her own sexuality, and as a 209 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: college student, she felt she was bisexual and started a 210 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: serious relationship with a woman. But she wanted to help 211 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: others like her who struggled with relationships UM, who wanted 212 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: to have one, but for one reason or another couldn't um. 213 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: And to that end, she started the Alana's Involuntary Celibacy 214 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: Project website. It didn't take her too long to realize 215 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: that she wasn't entirely sure to help the people populating 216 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: the forums, and she was in a relationship and kind 217 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: of you know, got busy, and in the early two 218 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: thousand's she left the community. Now. She later went on 219 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: to start a new project called Love Not Anger, to 220 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: kind of try to retake, try to start. The intend 221 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: wasn't as where it is today. Such a turnaround, I 222 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: guess that happens often. Well, then, this is when the 223 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: community divided into two forms, the in cel Support and 224 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: Love Shy. Insul Support was inclusive and closer to what 225 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: the founder intended moderator's band misogynistic post but love Shy, 226 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: on the other hand, did not really moderate the post 227 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: and posters blamed women for the lack of sex, and 228 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: one of the moderators lauded mass killings and killers and 229 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: encourage violence. And it was almost all men. Since it 230 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: was online, it wasn't isolated either. It crossed over with 231 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: very angry dark Internet places like four Chan, a sightwood 232 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: in cel like ideas section called our nine k. A 233 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of insults became insults through to four Chan. Then 234 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: they as the menosphere, which refers to a collection of 235 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: sites almost entirely powered by men, like Men's Right sites. 236 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: This vin diagram of sites blaming women fostered a larger community, 237 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: and one that took the name in cel and made 238 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: it their own and also claimed to have coined it 239 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: in the first place. After the killer in California was 240 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: reported to be an in cell, the original community relinquished 241 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: the term as toxic, but for the newer angry or 242 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: violent community, the killer was a hero, so the forums 243 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: posted photoshop pictures of his face as Christian images and 244 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: his initials were mostly positive and used to condone acts 245 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: of violence, and others blame him for the negative reputations 246 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: of itself. Yeah, some some in the community. I think 247 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: that that this is what gave them. I mean, it 248 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: did a negative reputation, and they don't um lauded him 249 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: like the others do and UM read it. Recently banned 250 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: the in cel subreddit, but a new one opened in 251 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: its place, with sixteen nine members, and it also spawned 252 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: our our insult heres, which makes fun of the things 253 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: posted by insults. I have a friend who reads that religiously, 254 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: and even that upsets me, Like it's funny, but I'm like, still, 255 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: how how do you even delve into that? Yeah? Yeah, um, 256 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: we have a little bit more to talk about, but 257 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: first we're gonna pause for one more quick break for 258 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsored. 259 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I mean in cells 260 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: is obviously to the instagree, it's taking something to the instagree, 261 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: but we can. I mean, it does showcase like how 262 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: in our society there is this idea of male entitlements 263 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: and female obligation which is still hard to shake. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 264 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: and in this thought structure women oh in sex and 265 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: the world is systemically messed up when men who want 266 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: it are not getting it. And you can see this everywhere. 267 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: But here's an example from a New York Times piece 268 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: written by a social conservative. Quote are widespread isolation and 269 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: unhappiness and sterility might be dealt with by reviving or 270 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: adapting older ideas about the virtues of monogamy and chastity 271 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: and permanence and the special respect owed to the celibate. 272 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: And I know that there was even that discussion of 273 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: like rationing sex, like how can we make sure everyone 274 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: who haunts sex gets it? But at the same time, 275 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: and seals look down on horrors sex worker, right, And 276 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: I know there's this prejudice against lesbians and sexuals in 277 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: general anyway, and that they are not doing, but it's 278 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: also a slab in their face that they can get 279 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: something without them. But then yeah, yeah, um. And and 280 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: think of how we encourage women to feel when they 281 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: want someone and can't get them, that it's their fault, 282 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: right right, that they're undesirable, they are to blame. Compare 283 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: that to this train of thinking like I'm just undesirable, 284 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: but the woman the other party, is to blame and 285 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: the world is to blame. And you owe me this. 286 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you give me this because this is your 287 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: purpose in life, you know. And I kind of think 288 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: about what the whole celibacy thing and the um monogamy 289 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: and chastity, all of these ideas, the whole sex strike 290 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 1: that's happening right now. I know I talked about it 291 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: earlier with the feminism episode, but Elissa Milano's whole thing, 292 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, wow, I know it's not completely related, 293 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: but this is kind of what we're having this conversation 294 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: about how this takes the whole idea, a traditional idea 295 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: that women owe men sex and so by being a 296 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: strike is something as if it's their job or their obligations, 297 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: so that they are putting putting a strike on it. 298 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: And I know that's one of the big controparties, like, wait, 299 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: you're taking this negative tone on what sex is and 300 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: who controls sexeper right, And this is the whole converse 301 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: Asian in that it's like even though I'm sure in 302 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: theory there's a lot of ways it could be helpful, 303 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: and and you and I talked about some of the 304 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: times that it has been used. You were talking about 305 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: in Chicago, um when it was used for gaining activity 306 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: or men who are involved in gain and the women 307 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: the correct and then also way back when when it 308 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: was thought of as their obligation, women's obligation to have 309 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: sex and both children and so therefore being on a 310 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: strike kind of takes that away. Um, but now it's 311 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: kind of we're changing that idea, we're changing what that 312 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: looks like, what sex is, and and who controls it 313 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and who can ask for and who can say no 314 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: to that? Um. And it is a really odd idea 315 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: of what this is. And then this kind of it 316 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: does kind of feel like it again, I don't really 317 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: know too much about it. I'm more confused than anything else. 318 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: It does, even like this spies into this whole idea 319 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: that a woman's purpose is to have sex with men, 320 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, And I know I 321 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: read that quote a couple of episodes ago about how 322 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: feeling like your soldier called into ward to help men 323 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: with their blue balls, right, um? And I yeah, I 324 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: felt that. And I've said, like I I'm someone who 325 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: doesn't really field sexual attraction, and I felt guilty about 326 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: it because I was like, oh, this guy is so 327 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: nice to me. I mean that. But again, you're right 328 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: with all of this, and cells uh, the idea that 329 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: you are failing and or you are insulting a man 330 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: by saying you don't want to be with him or 331 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: anyone is unnatural. Yeah, right, that's the mentality of this 332 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: UM that you are supposed to not necessarily want it, 333 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: but at least give it. It's not it's not about 334 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 1: your pleasure. So I guess again, I'm kind of like, 335 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: all right, this is so hand in hand with what 336 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: are we actually saying about sex and women once again? 337 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: And who owes what and who has control of what? 338 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: And in cells are largely viewed as a backlash too 339 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: progressiveness and feminism. Throughout our histories, laws have classified women's 340 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: bodies as the property of men, so the rape of 341 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: a man's wife was seen as a crime against the 342 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: man because the woman's body was not her own. And 343 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: we were still still trying to get away from that 344 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: train of thinking. And I think it just recently happened. 345 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: I can't forgot what state it was that they just 346 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: turned over. The law that women couldn't be raped by 347 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: her husband was when the United States finally in every 348 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: state right it was outlawed, And that is very very recent. 349 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: It's like going back to the way things used to 350 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: be and technology UM giving space for people to who 351 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: feel this way to connect and too, yeah, cheer each 352 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: other on UM. Apparently, Like yeah, in two eight states 353 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: still has semi laws that allow for I have to 354 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: be raped. Wow, what a wonderful world we live in. 355 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: Oh So Columbus, Ohio is the one that closed the 356 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: loophole in May four, nineteen for the marital right law. 357 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's still a thing and the 358 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: idea that we can't go past the whole women are properties, 359 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: sex as an obligation, Sex is a job, Sex is 360 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: a part of your duties in marriage. I mean you 361 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: still see that in show Who's in talking about approcreation 362 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: and and there's still some shame for a lot of 363 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: people to not be able to birth their own child, 364 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, and all of those laid down to you're 365 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: you're worth us a woman? Sure. Yeah. On my one 366 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: of my co workers the other day because because we 367 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: do this show like any Time, which is kind of 368 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: a fun sad thing, but any Time like a bad 369 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: something with feminism or women have starting to get that 370 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: now too. But I like you and I'm like, yeah, 371 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: that's bad. But one of our co workers sent me 372 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: a song. I had never heard of it, but it 373 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: was Dave Matthews song called Daughters. It's like be nice 374 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: to your daughters because they have become mothers or something. 375 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: I think that's an old, old, so old yeah, but 376 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: he was. It was just funny because he was like, 377 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: can we not view women as anything other than like 378 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: walking baby? That's what we're created for. And God, God 379 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: help the women who actually can't have children. I mean, 380 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: that's kind of the whole societal ideas that in the 381 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: internal struggle that you felt somehow because you feel like 382 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: that's what you're supposed to do and at the same 383 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: time that's what you want to do, and that's fine, 384 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: and that's heartbreaking in itself, but it is a whole 385 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: big thing of like, am I lesser person because I 386 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: don't or I can't And of course you're not. Of 387 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: course they're not. And it's just a heartbreaking that situation, 388 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: that stuff like this, which just goes into a volatile 389 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: state where death has to happen as a result of 390 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: someone's insecurity. You know, that's just and the fact that 391 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: we are hearing more and more of those, um the 392 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: whole idea that a young child can be raped for 393 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: the sins of someone else in the family, you know, 394 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: I know that's happened a few times in the world, 395 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: and it's just heartbreaking that that's even a thing. Or 396 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: the student who was killed because she reported sexual assault 397 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: over their professor. You know, it's just why is this 398 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: the thing that they're so undervalue? Women are undervalued? And 399 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: it's still conversation that we have to constantly have because 400 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: once again, as you said, the not not necessarily the 401 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: finality of death is not the only thing we have 402 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: to talk about here, but acid attacks, sort of continued harassment, 403 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: continues stalking. That you owe them something, um, is absurd, 404 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: even um having our listeners who talk about the fact 405 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: that they could deal with this at the workplace, constantly 406 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: being badgered. That's a part of the same thing, that 407 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: that you owe them something because you exist in the 408 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: world or in that environment, or you're nice to them. 409 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: And that's the other part is why we just we 410 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: can't be nice sometimes yeah. Yeah, and then and then 411 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: people get piss up about that. Yeah um yeah. I mean, 412 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: I think we were having this conversation about and cells 413 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: is really important in it. It's so kind of frightening, 414 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: but I I do think that it says a lot 415 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: about our views on women in general that this can 416 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: be allowed to exist, that it does exist, and even 417 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: when you try to shut it down and he still 418 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: keeps popping back up. Yeah yeah, Um, so that's that's 419 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: the end of this episode. I mean, it's something that 420 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: we have to look at, and I think we decided 421 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: to put this under like a feminism episode arc because 422 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: this is why it is important once again, and when 423 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: I try to talk to people who are so scared 424 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: of that word, we'll talk about these are what we're 425 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: really looking at. Its safety and equality. Safety is a 426 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: big factor and trying to be equal, being able to 427 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 1: once again walk out in the street by yourself without 428 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: being threatened, or being in a female in mainly like 429 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: male predominant area and be treated the same. I mean, 430 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: I told you the story a while ago about me 431 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: going into a conference that we're mainly made up of 432 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: males and feeling so insecure because the immediate looks in 433 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: the immediate like judgments that were happening, and I was 434 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: automatically focused on because I was a woman and then 435 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: in the sea of men and that's absurd. Yeah yeah, so, um, 436 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: it's been on our I think I started this outline 437 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: a year ago and finally finally did it. Um, And 438 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you listeners, and such 439 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: a strange transition, but we always want to hear from 440 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: the listen. We do, we do, we do UM. You 441 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i 442 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: heeart media dot com. That is a new email, but 443 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: if you send the older email, it'll it'll come our way. 444 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at stuff I've 445 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: Never Told You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. 446 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,479 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Andrew, 447 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Thank you, Stuff I've Never 448 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: Told You the production of I Heart Radios how Stuff Works. 449 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heeart Radio, visit the I 450 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast wherever you listen to your 451 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: favorite show.