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Speaker 1: Also media, ah, I should That was not a good

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Speaker 1: way to open it. I was going to try, well,

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Speaker 1: I had. I had a couple of bad openings started

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Speaker 1: for this, uh, most most of which had to do

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Speaker 1: with pedophilia.

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Speaker 2: Can we do another one of them?

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Speaker 3: No? Yeah? Can we just say, but you've had better

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Speaker 3: you you've had better openings?

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Speaker 1: I could have just what if I'd committed to that,

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Speaker 1: Sophie and just done the whole opening bit from led Zeppelins,

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Speaker 1: the Immigrant song, you could have Okay, that would have.

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Speaker 2: Been pretty good.

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Speaker 1: That would have been pretty good. I didn't do that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't do that. I chickened out halfway through. It

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Speaker 1: was nothing. Margaret Yep kill Joy, Welcome to the show

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards. And when when you think of bastards, right,

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Speaker 1: when you think of human evil, naturally, you're gonna think

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Speaker 1: of Germany. And look, that's not entirely fair to the

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Speaker 1: Germans today. But at the same time, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you go through that kind of World War two shit,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's just gonna be. It's just gonna be

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Speaker 1: on everybody's mind. And as a result, there's like a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of history, a huge amount of like historiography

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Speaker 1: that's kind of based around variations of the question why

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Speaker 1: do the Germans be like that?

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Speaker 3: Though?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Can I tell you my story about mistaking a German

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Speaker 2: in a bad way in the middle of Oh yeah please,

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, I was. I was crossing from the Czech

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Speaker 2: Republic into Germany before Czech Republic was part of the

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Speaker 2: Shangan area and so there was a border control. It's

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Speaker 2: the middle of the night, and I'm on this bus

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Speaker 2: and I wake up. You know, it's this super cheap

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Speaker 2: is this like ten year ohd bus or whatever? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I wake up to a German soldier going guten

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Speaker 2: dog and I just I wake up and my brain goes, oh,

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Speaker 2: fucking Nazi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly That's exactly how Poland woke up one day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just a big guten dog in their ear.

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Speaker 2: So he pulled me and the other like long hair

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Speaker 2: boy off the bus and searched us very carefully. Yeah anyway, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so that's Germany in my mind.

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Speaker 1: Look, this is actually getting to the point, which is

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Speaker 1: that I think there's kind of a fundamental flaw in

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Speaker 1: this idea of like trying to be like, what is

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Speaker 1: it about the Germans that made fascism happen there, right,

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Speaker 1: that made that be the country that like really did

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Speaker 1: that in the biggest way. And I think that's actually

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Speaker 1: kind of a it's a potentially dangerous thing to obsess in, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's nationalism, because it's because like a bunch of

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Speaker 1: like yeah, exactly, because it didn't just happen there, because

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Speaker 1: they're not the only people vulnerable, And kind of obsessing

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Speaker 1: too much on like what is it about germanness that

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Speaker 1: ensured the Nazis were able to take and hold power

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Speaker 1: can kind of blind you to the vulnerabilities we all face.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, it is worth acknowledging there

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Speaker 1: are aspects of German culture that ensure that Nazism was

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Speaker 1: the specific kind of fascism that came to We're in

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Speaker 1: that country and that altered its character, Right, there are

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Speaker 1: specific things about Germany that made it more vulnerable to

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Speaker 1: what the Nazis were going to do. So it would

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Speaker 1: also be kind of a mistake to ignore what was

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Speaker 1: going on in German culture in the years leading up

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Speaker 1: to the war. And when you know, historians, some of

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Speaker 1: whom I think are responsible in this and some of

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Speaker 1: whom are maybe not, try to do this, they inevitably

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Speaker 1: wind up focusing on two areas. Primarily, one of them

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Speaker 1: is child rearing. How we're like German parents raising children

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Speaker 1: in the pre World War two era and like the

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Speaker 1: pre Weimar in the German imperial era, and then what

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Speaker 1: was sexual education like, right, And I think child rearing

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Speaker 1: this is a sensible thing to get into. I think

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Speaker 1: when you get into the sex stuff, this is where

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Speaker 1: a lot of like the really bad historiography gets in,

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Speaker 1: because there tends to be this kind of obsession with

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Speaker 1: ideas about the Nazis and sex that are not necessarily accurate,

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Speaker 1: and kind of as a result in the post war period,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the period that starts like ten or fifteen

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Speaker 1: years after the war ends, a lot of folks on

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Speaker 1: like the left are going to make some really hideous

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Speaker 1: mistakes when they as part of kind of an attempt

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Speaker 1: to render Germany less vulnerable to fascism. And there they're

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Speaker 1: both some of the most horrifying things we will ever

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Speaker 1: talk about on this show. This is kind of what

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Speaker 1: we're building towards us going to take us a few episodes.

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Speaker 1: It's also a weird story, right, and it's this is

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Speaker 1: one of those things I just know of our listeners

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Speaker 1: like to wait until the series is finished. This is

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Speaker 1: not entirely that kind of series. We're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about a very different set of stories this week

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Speaker 1: and next week, but you kind of have to hear

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Speaker 1: them to understand what comes next to because we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking a lot about the attitudes in German

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Speaker 1: academia and society about like how kids should be raised.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, anyway, zech does mean that this week is

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Speaker 1: our fun week. Yeah, Margaret Kiljoy, host of the Cool

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Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff podcast? Are you ready to

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Speaker 1: get into today's bastard?

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Speaker 2: Is it Nazi sex No, it's post Nazi sex crime.

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Speaker 1: No, no, this is pre Nazi child rearing crimes. And as

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Speaker 1: a result, I mean Nazi child It is depressing because

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Speaker 1: this is child abuse. But it's also pseudoscience.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, I do like pseudoscience.

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Speaker 1: So you get some of that fun like, oh, people

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds you believed wacky things about how

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Speaker 1: to raise children. That's what we're talking about this week

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Speaker 1: is like pseudoscience that today is like the kind of

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Speaker 1: big pseudoscientific child development expert in the pre Nazi era.

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Speaker 1: And then Thursday is the the momfluencer of Nazism. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have this is the fun week. Next week

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Speaker 1: is all pedophiles, So okay, enjoyant. What I'm saying is

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Speaker 1: enjoy it. While at last, yep, today's guy is even

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Speaker 1: pretty well meaning. He's a bastard because of like where

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Speaker 1: this stuff takes him. But I don't think he was

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Speaker 1: actually out to hurt kids. He just made a lot

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Speaker 1: of horrible mistakes. And his name was Daniel Gottlieb Moritz Schreber. Okay,

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Speaker 1: quite a name, quite a name, extremely German name. That's

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Speaker 1: a guten tug in your ear as you're woken up

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Speaker 1: on the bus. Ass name?

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Speaker 2: Is that a hyphen?

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Speaker 1: Or?

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Speaker 2: Has he got two middle names?

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Speaker 1: No? No, two middle names? Two middle names?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know those kids are always trouble. So yeah.

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Speaker 1: I found very little about his childhood, but it does

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Speaker 1: seem to be accurate to say that he suffered from

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Speaker 1: a form of mental illness that was not diagnosed at

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Speaker 1: the time. There were notes found long after his death,

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Speaker 1: in fact, after World War Two, at a hospital in

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Speaker 1: Dresden that claimed Shrebber had suffered during his life from

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Speaker 1: quote obsessional ideas with murderous impulses. Now, that is a

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Speaker 1: description of this guy's mind state, written by a member

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Speaker 1: of his family who was treating his son, whose Spoilers

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Speaker 1: suffered from paranoid schizophrenia. This is very relevant later, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is this discussion that, like well, Schrebert had

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Speaker 1: obsessional ideas with murderous impulses. This is not a diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: This is family lore that was passed down, right.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that said, so intrusive thoughts a little worse than

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Speaker 2: most people.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that maybe a lot worse, But that is exactly

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Speaker 1: what I thought, because I have people in my life

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Speaker 1: with OCD that manifest with intrusive thoughts, and that's what

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Speaker 1: I thought of when I read that description of Schreiber, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And whatever was going on, whatever he had was dealing with,

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Speaker 1: it was intense enough that again it got passed down

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Speaker 1: in family lore like one hundred or like fifty years

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Speaker 1: after his death, so you have to assume significant. But

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Speaker 1: also he was a very successful, functional person within his society,

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Speaker 1: so it did not stop him from functioning in society.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: He did struggle with depression throughout his life, which ended

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty one, because he didn't get to murder people.

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Speaker 1: He didn't get to murder people, or I.

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Speaker 2: Assume I don't know anything about maybe he did murder people,

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Speaker 2: but you know, probably we wouldn't have been depressed if

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Speaker 2: he'd been able to act. Never mind, don't listen to me.

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Speaker 2: You probably shouldn't say that on this show. Nope, I

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Speaker 2: don't know anyon he's gonna do. It's gonna be bad,

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Speaker 2: So never mind.

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Speaker 3: So Magpie, this is not your show, cool thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I got confused for a minute.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, no, So all of this is

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Speaker 1: relevant because Daniel Schraber is going to have more of

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Speaker 1: an impact on German child rearing than pretty much anyone

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Speaker 1: else in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. Skrebber

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Speaker 1: got his MD and taught at the University of Leipzig.

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Speaker 1: He is often referred to as a self proclaimed child psychiatrist.

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Speaker 1: And normally when you're like someone is a self proclaimed

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Speaker 1: medical field, it's because they're a quack or a con man.

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Speaker 1: In this case, it's just because child psychology was new

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Speaker 1: at the time, right, Like, if you were a child psychologist,

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Speaker 1: you had declared yourself that because it wasn't a thing

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Speaker 1: people became because.

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Speaker 2: You're the first guy, the first you're yeah.

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Speaker 1: Very early. You know, he's doing this in the mid

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. The idea that like, like prior to.

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Speaker 2: The period nineteen ten.

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Speaker 1: Okay, no, no, this guy is in Like this guy

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Speaker 1: dies right at the start of the US Civil War

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Speaker 1: and prior to the period where he was an active academic,

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Speaker 1: if kids misbehaved or were disturbed, you just handed them

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Speaker 1: a cigarette and sent them off to the poison minds, right,

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Speaker 1: Like there was not any sort of thought that their

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Speaker 1: mental health might matter.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Schraber was fascinated with children's health, and particularly

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Speaker 1: he was really interested with how urbanization and the rapid

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Speaker 1: changes due to modern life had impacted child development, like

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Speaker 1: social media and stuff. Yes, like social media. He was

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Speaker 1: a real twitter head. Ye, no, he's in his case,

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Speaker 1: he's worried about like the social media of his day,

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Speaker 1: which is like roads and the mail and the fact

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Speaker 1: that there are tall buildings around front see trees. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's got these are like real issues, right, that's he's

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Speaker 1: noticing that, like this is actually changing the way in

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Speaker 1: which people are developing. His books were popular all across

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Speaker 1: the Western world. He had a lot of readers in

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Speaker 1: the US, but he was particularly popular in Germany. You

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Speaker 1: might think of him as like doctor Spock if you're

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Speaker 1: old enough to remember doctors, not the from Star Trek,

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Speaker 1: but like the child development doctor who was kind of huge.

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Speaker 1: I think of the eighties and nineties. I think my

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Speaker 1: parents had a doctor Spock book or two around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I never was able to disambiguate that from

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Speaker 2: Stock from Star Trek. So I never stood what was happening.

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Speaker 2: I didn't understand how there could be more than one

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Speaker 2: person named Spock.

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Speaker 1: Because I assumed doctor Spock from Star Trek would have

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Speaker 1: been a fantastic parenting advice giver, you know, oh absolutely,

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Speaker 1: it seemed like he had his shit together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit of emotionally detached kid would come

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Speaker 2: out of it. But you know, yeah that's some that's fine.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Margaret, That is where this story ends.

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Speaker 1: But oh yeah, you might think of Schribber his impact,

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Speaker 1: like his kind of influence in Germany in the mid

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. And this is really this is this is

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Speaker 1: when there's a bunch of fighting principalities, Right, You've got

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Speaker 1: like Russia and Bavaria kind of at each other's throats

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Speaker 1: for part of this guy's life, so they're not even

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Speaker 1: German yet, but you might compare him to if doctor

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Speaker 1: Spock is too old. Whatever. YouTube momfluencer is currently at

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Speaker 1: the height of her influence and hasn't yet been arrested

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Speaker 1: for accidentally murdering her kids. That I wanted to like

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Speaker 1: bring that up and then bring up like a single

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Speaker 1: case of a social media mom influencer committing a terrible crime.

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Speaker 1: But when I googled momfluencer guilty of abuse, I was

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Speaker 1: presented with so many different options that I had to deal.

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Speaker 1: I had like decision paralysis. How do I finish this bit?

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Speaker 2: Like this?

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Speaker 1: This happens so often. All of these people are fucking

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Speaker 1: child abusers.

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Speaker 2: Oh god.

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Speaker 1: I settled eventually on Ruby Frank, a momfluencer with two

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Speaker 1: and a half million subscribers on YouTube and Instagram who

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Speaker 1: pled guilty to child abuse in December of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: And this I settled on Ruby Frank because she's She's

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Speaker 1: relevant to our German discussion for a few reasons, including

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Speaker 1: the fact that prosecutors accused her and her husband of

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Speaker 1: turning their home into a concentration camp like environment to

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Speaker 1: control their children and use them to feed the ever

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Speaker 1: hungry YouTube parenting content mill they made. I didn't expect

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Speaker 1: this to feed so well into the theme of the episode,

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Speaker 1: but alas Ruby ensured it did so. She made videos,

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Speaker 1: and she eventually separates from her husband. He's filing for divorce.

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Speaker 1: I think he's probably seems like he's less involved in this,

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Speaker 1: but that's certain that he's not, or he's just.

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Speaker 2: Better because he didn't get that money for it.

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Speaker 1: He did all as much as that sweet YouTube money.

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Speaker 1: They made videos like. One example of their contents a

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Speaker 1: video blog titled eight Passengers, which focused on punishments for kids.

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Speaker 1: One example punishment given was they banned their oldest son

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Speaker 1: from his bedroom for seven months for playing a prank

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Speaker 1: on his brother. Again, if you're doing anything to a

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Speaker 1: kid for like seven months, that's too long for a punishment,

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Speaker 1: that's just abuse at that point. That's an insane length

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Speaker 1: of time for a punishment. In one video, Ruby brags

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Speaker 1: about refusing to bring lunch to her kindergartener who'd forgotten

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Speaker 1: it at home. And again, she's a kindergartener, Like, what

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Speaker 1: kind of shit is supposed to have together? In another video,

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Speaker 1: she threatened to behead a doll to punish your daughter,

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Speaker 1: which like if you are if you are taking child

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Speaker 1: rearing tips from isis you know you've got a rye.

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Speaker 2: I think that the parent is the one who needs

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Speaker 2: the punishment.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's amazing. Again, this was all on videos,

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Speaker 1: so it's perhaps not surprising that like eventually prosecutors realized

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Speaker 1: there was something going on here. I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: a quote from NPR about what was happening in the

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Speaker 1: Frank household. That's going to be surprisingly relevant to some

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Speaker 1: of the things that come next. Frank also admitted to

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Speaker 1: kicking her son while wearing boots, holding his head underwater,

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Speaker 1: and smothering his mouth and nose with her hands. According

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Speaker 1: to the plea agreement. He was also told that everything

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Speaker 1: that was being done to him were acts of love.

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Speaker 1: The agree in the States Jesus, So this is you

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Speaker 1: know we're talking about with miss Frank. She is you will.

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Speaker 1: It is not uncommon to find people advocating today for

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Speaker 1: this kind of like tough love practice towards raising children.

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Speaker 1: There's a very popular book among the Christian right called

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Speaker 1: to Train Up a Child, and the basis of it

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Speaker 1: is you should when children are infants do stuff like

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Speaker 1: lay them down on a mat, and if they like

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Speaker 1: wiggle to such a point that any part of their

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Speaker 1: body is off of it, you like whip them basically,

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Speaker 1: like you like beat them. There's a lot of discussion

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Speaker 1: of like, you know, what kind of things you should

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Speaker 1: hit children with and win. But the idea is that

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Speaker 1: any tiny act of what it terms is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: misbehavior or disobedience, right, which we would just call well,

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Speaker 1: kids aren't fully in control of themselves to their bodies

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Speaker 1: because there's they're developing still, you know that that's an

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Speaker 1: act of like willfulness against not just the parent but

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Speaker 1: against God. Right, And that attitude again, which is still

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Speaker 1: super with a us, is very much in the intellectual

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Speaker 1: chain of custody that it doesn't I wouldn't say it

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Speaker 1: starts with doctor Shreber. It probably starts much earlier than that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure parents have been doing this for forever in

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Speaker 1: various ways. But the kind of the intellectualizing of that

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Speaker 1: impulse that bad parents have always had to like, if

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Speaker 1: my kid does anything that I don't want them doing

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Speaker 1: in the moment, I need to respond with pain.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Schreber is one of the first people to kind of

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Speaker 1: try and medicalize that attitude, right, and again he's a

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Speaker 1: lot less hateful about it. I don't think he's coming

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Speaker 1: from a place of wanting to hurt kids. I think

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Speaker 1: he's coming from a place of like he kind of

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Speaker 1: has obsessional OCD, and so he obsesses on like little

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Speaker 1: movements from kids, and it bothers him, and so he

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Speaker 1: develops all this kind of like scientific theory around how

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Speaker 1: you should treat the small ways children move that are

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Speaker 1: again in reality, due to the fact that they're not

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Speaker 1: fully in control of their bodies.

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Speaker 2: Baby muscle phrenology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of what's going on here.

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Speaker 1: And I want to read a passage from a German

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Speaker 1: author named j elk Erdle about kind of what doctor

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Speaker 1: Schrebber focused his intellectual efforts on in regards to child rearing. Quote,

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Speaker 1: Schreber aimed at creating obedient children from the day the

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Speaker 1: baby is born. Harsh discipline started with cold baths. The

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Speaker 1: child's comfort and self esteem whenever considerations and stroking, cuddling,

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Speaker 1: and kissing were forbidden. As a result, generations of Germans

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Speaker 1: went without direct loving contact with their parents. Now Rdle, again,

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Speaker 1: this is a German writer writing about her attitude towards

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Speaker 1: Shrebber's impact on Germany. It's not fully his fault. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of other child development experts and intellectual experts

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Speaker 1: who are a part of this, like lack of loving

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Speaker 1: contact between German babies and their parents. But it's not

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Speaker 1: uncommon to find people with Eardle's attitude that Schreber basically

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Speaker 1: paves the way for Nazism. He has been described as

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Speaker 1: the spiritual precursor of Nazism, and again it's not totally

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Speaker 1: fair to say that, but there is no denying that

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Speaker 1: he influenced the cultural environment in which Nazism grew.

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Speaker 2: As soon as you said that, I was like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like no, okay, a whole like you know, four generations

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Speaker 2: of kids who weren't allowed to talk to like touch

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Speaker 2: their parents. Yeah, no, I could see how that could

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Speaker 2: lead to some monstrosity.

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Speaker 1: The more accurate thing to say would be that, like,

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Speaker 1: Shreber popularized the kind of intellectual argument for abusing your

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Speaker 1: children in this way, and that provided a lot of

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Speaker 1: space for other intellectuals in the decades to come to

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Speaker 1: make similar arguments and extensions of his arguments and.

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Speaker 2: Put them into the political or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly, and that is part of what's going

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Speaker 1: on in Germany.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, one thing that really again fucks me up about

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Speaker 1: this is that, unlike basically everyone else we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about Schreber's teachings, while they end in a bad place,

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Speaker 1: they start from a pretty good place, which is he's

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Speaker 1: recognizing we have cities now. Most kids are growing up

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Speaker 1: in cities now, and kids who grow up in cities

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Speaker 1: don't exert themselves outdoors as much as children probably have

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Speaker 1: throughout most of history, and we need to make accounting

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Speaker 1: for that in how we raise them. Right, that they're

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Speaker 1: not getting the kind of outdoor exposure that they're that

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Speaker 1: they evolve to get. Right, that's not wrong. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: that is a that is like a thing about urban

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Speaker 1: life that you do need to take into account when

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Speaker 1: raising children. Is that, like, if you're not careful, they

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Speaker 1: will not get enough time to move their bodies around. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's that's like a problem with modern Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it's like the like modern parenting thing where like

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Speaker 2: or the generation about a half generation older than me

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Speaker 2: is like what the hell, just kick your kids out

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Speaker 2: of the house and make it right to run around

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Speaker 2: and play outside. Kids these days don't play outside.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly he is. He is one of the

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Speaker 1: first people kind of start, and he's starting on the

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Speaker 1: reasonable end of that. Where it gets unreasonable is that

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Speaker 1: he kind of comes to the conclusion that the issue

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Speaker 1: of kids having all this energy should be remedied not

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Speaker 1: with them running around outside, but with systematic remedial exercise.

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Speaker 1: Now that sounds on the surface like, oh, maybe he's

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Speaker 1: like suggesting a PE program, right, which I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: and I have both had our issues with different physical

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Speaker 1: education programs.

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Speaker 2: Is he putting them in the minds?

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Speaker 1: No, it's worse than that. The minds would have been

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Speaker 1: better than this. So the term remedial is key here.

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Speaker 1: Schreber didn't just believe kids needed exercise to get rid

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Speaker 1: of excess energy or to stay healthy. He felt that

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Speaker 1: they should be subjected to specific exercises repetitively to stop

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Speaker 1: them from engaging in behaviors like slouching and masturbation. Now, again,

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Speaker 1: some of what he's doing is reasonable. He believes that

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Speaker 1: you can sharpen a child's eyes by periodically forcing them

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Speaker 1: to estimate the sizes of objects at varying distances. Right,

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Speaker 1: how big do you think that is? How far do

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Speaker 1: you think that is? That doesn't actually sharpen your eyes,

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Speaker 1: But that is good exercise for a kid. Will help them,

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Speaker 1: you know, like if you do that with your child

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Speaker 1: from a young age, it will kind of help them

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Speaker 1: focus on things in the world. That's not a useless

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Speaker 1: thing to do with it.

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Speaker 2: They can them scouts in the army at that point

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Speaker 2: right right right, which how many are how many troops

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Speaker 2: are there? How far away? What's the composition?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so some of it's fine, But he's also obsessed

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Speaker 1: with posture, he writes in his very popular eighteen fifty

403
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Speaker 1: five book quote, One must see to it that children

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Speaker 1: always sit straight and even sided on both buttocks at once,

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Speaker 1: leaning either to the right or left side. As soon

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Speaker 1: as they start to lean back or bend their backs,

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00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: the time has come to exchange at least for a

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Speaker 1: few minutes, the seated position for the absolutely still supine one.

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Speaker 1: If this is not done, the backbones will be deformed.

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Speaker 1: Half resting and lying or wallowing positions should not be allowed.

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Speaker 1: If children are awake, they should be alert and hold

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Speaker 1: themselves in straight active positions, and be busy in general.

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Speaker 1: Each thing which could lead towards laziness and softness. For example,

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Speaker 1: the sofa in the children's room should be kept away

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Speaker 1: from their circle of activity.

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Speaker 2: So both Sofia and I sat up straight while telling

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Speaker 2: that I'm willing to bet most of the listeners have

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Speaker 2: adjusted their postures. Do you say that even though we

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Speaker 2: know it's a bad person saying.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and he is he is, he's so. I think

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Speaker 1: we all had this version of the adult in our

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Speaker 1: lives who was like, straighten up, straighten up, your posture's bad, right,

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Speaker 1: Maybe more than one shrimper. He isn't just doing that

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Speaker 1: when kids are awake. He thinks that they're like sleeping

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Speaker 1: too lazily. They should only be allowed to sleep in

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Speaker 1: a straight position, flat on their backs or else this

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Speaker 1: laxity will spawn moral lapses and render them unfit for

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Speaker 1: the life of discipline that German society demanded.

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Speaker 2: Even so, they had to like sleep with their arms

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Speaker 2: crossed like vampires.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they do, they kind of do. Even infants have

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Speaker 1: to lay prone and like straight, otherwise it's going to

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Speaker 1: like start them on the road to sin. Like newborn

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Speaker 1: you have to like police how your newborn baby lies down,

435
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 1: or they're not going to grow up German enough to

436
00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: conquer France, not.

437
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: To invade Russia. It would have worked out.

438
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean we're so far ahead of that.

439
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: Like we're trying to get kids ready for the idea

440
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: of breechloading cannons, and by god he does all right.

441
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 1: Speaking of breech loading cannons, you know who else loads

442
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: their new Krupstahl cannons from the breach Margaret?

443
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 2: The products and service rights and support the show right.

444
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: Arms industry, Yeah, the arms industry specifically in eighteen seventy Europe.

445
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: That is the primary sponsor of our show, Margaret. Have

446
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: you ever heard of the Mitrelieu?

447
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 2: I have not.

448
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: It's an early French machine gun and it's not good

449
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: at doing what we use machine guns for today, which

450
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,120
Speaker 1: is sweeping broad arcs of fire in order to contain areas.

451
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 1: But it's really good at shooting one guy a bunch

452
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: of times. So you know, if you need a metralieu

453
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: in your life. They don't legally count as machine guns

454
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: for reasons that are complicated to explain, but very much

455
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: true anyway.

456
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: And gatling guns not technically basically why yeah, because you

457
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 2: have to turn Yeah, the ATF.

458
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: The ATF.

459
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: Everyone worked really well in World War One, well, not

460
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 2: World War one so much.

461
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: It works.

462
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm just thinking of My knowledge of the

463
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: history of machine guns is that they were used colonially

464
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: by the Western forces and then the but then the

465
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: first time that they were used against other white people

466
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: was in World War One, and that's when everyone realized

467
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: how fucking what nightmare they had created.

468
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when people really fucked it up. The mittrulieu

469
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 1: was a little more complicated. The French had it, and

470
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: it was like actually pretty effective in a couple of battles,

471
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: but they never actually deployed it, right, They thought of

472
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: it more as a piece of artillery rather than support

473
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 1: for the infantry. So anyway, they lost that war pretty badly.

474
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 1: But you don't have to, you know, you can. You

475
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: can use your crank operated machine gun for what God

476
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: wants you to use it for, just cranking.

477
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: Our hero of today wouldn't want you to, no.

478
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: He sho wouldn't. We're back, Margaret and I both have

479
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: are crank operated, not technically machine guns. That's right, Yeah,

480
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: as I hope all of you do. You know, anyway,

481
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: unless you're in Germany, where I think that probably is illegal,

482
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: because I'm sure they wrote their laws more like less

483
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: like Americans, shall we say so, Yeah, we're talking about Shraber,

484
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: and his whole attitude is that like if kids slouch,

485
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: if they like, you know, when they're laying down, they

486
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: flop around, if they're not basically straight while standing or

487
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: straight wall prone at all times, they're going to get

488
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 1: started on the road to moral ruin. So since children

489
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: would naturally curl or lean on their bodies at some point,

490
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: it wasn't enough for him to say he's not just

491
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: the kind of guy who is like maybe that adult

492
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: most of us had who was like, you should straighten up.

493
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: You got to care about your posture, right. He developed

494
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: corrective treatments to revert the damage. His attitude was like, well,

495
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: unless people have been applying my teachings to their infants

496
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: from birth, those kids probably have bad habits, and so

497
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: we need medical orthotic devices to correct their bad posture.

498
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: Now some of at his back brace. He yes, he

499
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: kind of did, actually, but worse. Yeah, Now, one of

500
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 1: his first creations was the bridge, and this didn't require

501
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: any new devices. This is when to correct a child's posture,

502
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: you suspend them in the air by chairs underneath their

503
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: head and feet and they kind of like keep themselves straight.

504
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: This is like a hardware CrossFit exercise today and he thanks,

505
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: if your four year old slouchest, this is what you do.

506
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: Sobey's going to show you a picture from his textbook

507
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: and he wanted you to do this to apply the

508
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: bridge to children if you caught them walking with a

509
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: quote forward slump, which he defined as an expression of weakness, dumbness,

510
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: and cowardice.

511
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm looking at a picture of I mean,

512
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 2: it's a there's two chairs. A man is sitting not

513
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: with his shoulders on the top chair, but literally his head,

514
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: his head, his neck is doing a lot of work.

515
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: His neck is going to be ruined for life. I

516
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: love the idea that like, oh yeah, I don't one

517
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: can do this dumb coward stuff. No, it doesn't seem

518
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: like that's not like the way he's It's specific because

519
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: there is an exercise, a plank exercise that kind of

520
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: looks like this, but all of the all of the

521
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: weight is being placed in the child's neck in this picture.

522
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: Oh we love to see it, Margaret.

523
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: Now this guy's a vampire.

524
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: He that would have been a lot less harmful to

525
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: the kids.

526
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: That is my theory about almost everything that happened in

527
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 2: Europe in the nineteenth century.

528
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: So oh you see, I was going to say, my

529
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: theory is that most of the problems with kids is

530
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: that they have too much blood. But similar, similar.

531
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: To that actually could be the solution of the problem.

532
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So bad posture is not the only

533
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: thing that Shavers sought to eliminate, writing an eight teen

534
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: fifty eight that parents had to quote suppress everything in

535
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: the child. Emotions must be suffocated in their seed right away.

536
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: That's such a telling phrase. Yes, the seed of being

537
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: able to love your parents has to be suffocated through

538
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: constant discipline.

539
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: The point of life, I like genuinely wonder, like what a.

540
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: Point that the point of life is for the German

541
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 1: principalities to form a unified block to defeat France, Margaret

542
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: get together.

543
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: France is just over there, like being France, and I

544
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: understand that.

545
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, they've been fucking around a lot by the

546
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds. You know this guy, this guy is

547
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: born at the start of the eighteen hundreds. To be fair,

548
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: his childhood has a lot of French fuckery going on

549
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, some would call them the Germans of

550
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: their era. Uh, it's it's it's fine, everybody were where.

551
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: You can't tell European history and have a good time

552
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: without being unfair to France, Germany or the UK, and

553
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: I choose all three. I'm also going to give some

554
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: shit to Belgium. Don't worry so again. Here just parents

555
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: to apply his methods as early as possible, because children

556
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: who are older will develop harmful habits that are more

557
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: deeply rooted. For these unfortunate souls, he developed orthotic methods.

558
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: One was a shoulder band. It's basically a figure eight

559
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: shaped leather belt that you wrap around a child's shoulders,

560
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: kind of like the Holsters movie detectives where and then

561
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: you tighten it to the point that it ties a

562
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: child's arms and shoulders back straight behind them.

563
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: I gotta advertise these on Instagrams right now?

564
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yes you could, Yes, you could doctor approved orthot

565
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: X for your child if the slouch. Yeah. Shreber instructed

566
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: parents to make sure their kids wore these things all day,

567
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: every day until their posture was fixed, and throughout the

568
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds is he's writing his books, he designs

569
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: this spree of child torture gadgets, my favorite of which

570
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: is the shrebersh Gerald Holder. The literal translation of that

571
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: name is Scheber's straightholder. In an article for the journal

572
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: Selma Gundy Morton Schatzman Wrights describes it as quote an

573
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: iron crossbar fastened to the table at which the child

574
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: sat to reader write. The bar pressed against the collar

575
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: boats in the front of the shoulders to prevent forward

576
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: movements or crooked posture. He says, the child could not

577
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: lean for log against the bar because of the pressure

578
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: of the hard object against the bones and the consequent discomfort.

579
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: The child will return on his own to a straight position,

580
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 1: he added excitedly, I had a Jared holder manufactured which

581
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: proved itself to be suitable after multiple tests on my

582
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: own children.

583
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: You're sort of inverse crucifying your children, and.

584
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're building devices to correct your kids. He is like, Yeah,

585
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 1: you love that kind of self or experimentation on your

586
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: own brood. At least it's the responsible, it's not responsible,

587
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: that's how he does it. Yeah, So one look at

588
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: a picture of a pair of schoolgirls using this device

589
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: makes one of its uses very clear, which is that

590
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: it stops kids from crossing their legs. This is good

591
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: because Shrimmer felt cross legs were immoral. The Gerald Halter

592
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: was such as, Yeah, he didn't like kids like I

593
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: think particularly it might have been that like if boys

594
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: did it, he felt like they were rubbing their genitals.

595
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, but he was like girls expected to

596
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: cross their legs because if you don't, you're a bad

597
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: There's like a little rhyme and school that we all.

598
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: He doesn't want anything going on at all movement wise

599
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: there right. He wants he wants, he wants that those

600
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: legs straight and children unable to move deviate from the

601
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: position they are set in their chair without iron bars and.

602
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: Arms while saluting. You need to keep your absolute straight

603
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: while you're saluting.

604
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: No, otherwise you're not going to defeat Napoleon the third.

605
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: So the Jared Halter was a huge success, very popular

606
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: in his day, and it's such a s that he

607
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: follows it up quickly with a new device, which is

608
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: essentially a belt tied to a child's bed that ran

609
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: across their chest to force them to lay straight on

610
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: their back while sleeping. The diagrams for this are really

611
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: quite upsetting, Margaret. It looks like a dead kid in

612
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: a bed. It looks like one of those.

613
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: It's like vampires. There's vampires everywhere.

614
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're just preparing the kid to get fucking feasted on.

615
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's just a picture of a girl

616
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: lying in a bed.

617
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: Wide open eyes, clearly like strapped so tight into that

618
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: bed that she cannot sleep.

619
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, I'm sure this never goes badly.

620
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: No, no, no. Generations of kids are healthier as a

621
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: result of it.

622
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: Somewhere there's someone in a kink scene who's like, oh,

623
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 2: the blah blah blah belt.

624
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm sorry that leather manufacturers

625
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: in this day charge a lot more than they did

626
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: back in Shrebber's day. So the last device we'll talk about,

627
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: but by no means the last device Shrebber created was

628
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: the kop Falter or headholder, which was a strap to

629
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: hold a child's head in place while they were at

630
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: a desk. Shatsman writes quote, the cup folter was a

631
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: strap clamped at one end to the child's hair and

632
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: at the other to his underwear, so it pulled his

633
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: head if he did not hold his head straight. It

634
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: served as a reminder to keep the head straight, and

635
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 1: this is this is a shrebber. The consciousness that the

636
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 1: head cannot be lowered past a certain point soon becomes

637
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 1: a habit. He admits it was apt to produce a

638
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: certain stiffening effect upon the head, and should therefore be

639
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: used only one or two hours a day.

640
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: Oh, it's progressive of him.

641
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

642
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

643
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: After you like, do permanent damage to your child's muscula chair,

644
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: you should. You should limit the amount of permanent damage

645
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: you do.

646
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: I want to I want to build a time machine

647
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: to bring him to the present and show him kids

648
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: looking at cell phones. Oh man, oh god, My torture for.

649
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: Him, that that is his hell is just watch modern

650
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: kids play video games, just shreaking at us from the

651
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: astral plane. Yeah uh now, again, the goal of all

652
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: of these physical interventions was to improve moral character by

653
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: altering the physical attributes of children. The goal was to

654
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: create a better class of person. And it's not hard

655
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: to see the spiritual echoes of Nazism here. Again, people

656
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: often mistake what the Nazis believed. Is like, they thought

657
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: that they were the uber mension, right, that they they

658
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: were superhumans, you know, because they were areas. No, no, no,

659
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: They thought that they could create people who were closer

660
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: to the original Aryans through a mixture of selective breeding

661
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: and like different rearing techniques. Right, they didn't think they

662
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: were there yet they wanted to build it. That's a

663
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: crucial distinction, right, that they were trying to create this,

664
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: this better kind of person, not.

665
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: That they were trying to do what they were the

666
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: ornx or the org someone's gonna be really mad.

667
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: A yes, or the giant the giant cow things.

668
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that they wanted to just krows and giant

669
00:33:59,480 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 2: Nazi men.

670
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: They're not wrong about wanting giant cows. Everything else I

671
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: don't see, but I do think we should have bigger cows.

672
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: I would fully support a Jurassic Park project.

673
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, you know, honestly, I would support a Jurassic Park

674
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: that ended exactly the way the one in the movie did,

675
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: and I would go to that park. I will take

676
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: the risk to absolutely.

677
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 2: I'd be a little disappointed if they didn't break free

678
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: and start forming the imagine a normal park.

679
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: Or like getting ready to leave, like I don't know,

680
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: it just feels like something's missing.

681
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: I feel like it'd be like something more honest, where

682
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: you like, you know, you kiss your husband goodbye and

683
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: you head out to work, and you look both ways

684
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: and run to your car before a velociraptor gets you.

685
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, like Muldoon. We should all commute to work

686
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: exactly like Muldoon commuted across briefly across a street and

687
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: Jurassic Park that one time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, when

688
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: we're looking at like a guy whose goal is to

689
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: improve the moral character by altering physical acc tributes of children,

690
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: it's not hard to see spiritual echoes to Nazism here.

691
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: As writer Rachel Aviv notes in an article for The

692
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: New Yorker, Shreber outlined principles of child rearing that would

693
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: create a stronger race of men, ridding them of cowardice, laziness,

694
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: and unwanted displays of vulnerability and desire. Now, doctor Schreber's

695
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: books were so popular and influential that his book on

696
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: children's Posture and Corrective Exercises went through more than forty printings.

697
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 1: Late in his career, he seems to have acknowledged that

698
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: some of his physical corrections did not produce the intended

699
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: moral results, and he actually, again, this is why this

700
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: guy's not fully I can't really call him a bastard. He,

701
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: because of his peculiarities, posits a lot of ideas that

702
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: cause tremendous harm to children. There are like parenting groups

703
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: that are not insignificant size to the middle of the

704
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: nineteenth century that are using aspects of schreber tactics. But

705
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: also he recognizes that like, oh you know what, this

706
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: stuff isn't working the way I thought it would, And

707
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: kind of late in his life he comes around to

708
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: from more playgrounds and cities to give children a place

709
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: to exercise, and his most well regarded achievement to this

710
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: day is the establishment of what are called Shraper gardens,

711
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: which are all around Germany today. These are community gardens

712
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: in urban areas meant to provide children and parents with

713
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: healthy outdoor activity. So, Gibbs, that's.

714
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: Kind of hold that's them.

715
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: That's nice. That's good. He started from like strapping children

716
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: into torture cages, but he ended up in community gardens.

717
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: It's okay, oh yeah, okay, good work Shraper. Yeah. You

718
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: have to be fair to the guy. He's not like.

719
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: I don't think he is a bad faith. I don't

720
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: think he's wanting to hurt kids. I think this is

721
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: just he's kind of a weird dude who obsesses about

722
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: certain things and that leads him to doing causing to

723
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: coming up with some harmful ideas about how children should

724
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 1: be treated.

725
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 2: I honestly, I have a weird sympathy towards this where

726
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: he had an idea where he was like, Okay, I

727
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: want to try and improve people, and it didn't work,

728
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: and he was like, okay, I'll try something different. Like

729
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: I think about I like, I wish I had been

730
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: taught to stand equally on both my feet more.

731
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I guess I have.

732
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: My sciatica exists in part because and I actually blame

733
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: I took like art classes, right, and they taught me

734
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 2: about contrapasta, where they were like, this is the way

735
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: people normally stand. And it's like because all the old

736
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: Greek statues are like someone standing on one leg with

737
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: other on one leg, and so I thought that was

738
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: like the normal way to stand. So I did that

739
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: all the time, and now I have, like, you know,

740
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: twenty years later, it caused some problems in my life

741
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yeah, I wish they put my weight

742
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: on both feet.

743
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: He's acknowledging his solutions are because he's growing up in

744
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: mid century Europe. He's a child of the Napoleonic Wars.

745
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: His solutions are nightmarish, but he's like, well, kids are

746
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: living in cities, they're not feeling enough exercise. We have

747
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: to do something to torimedy this problem. And he does.

748
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: I think he lands ultimately pretty close to the right answer,

749
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: which is like, give kids playgrounds, make sure they have

750
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: access to nature through stuff like gardens.

751
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 3: Right.

752
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: I still think that's basically the best answer to this

753
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:03,760
Speaker 1: problem today.

754
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and tell people like, well, if you don't stand

755
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: up straight, it'll cause problems further down the line. And

756
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 2: it's your body.

757
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's your body.

758
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 2: Make your own decision.

759
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: Again, don't strap them into Yeah. The problem is that

760
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: people follow his teachings well into the twentieth century, and

761
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: after he can kind of see, yeah, after he gives

762
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: up on aspects of them. Now, that's not like he's

763
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: not like one to eighty. He's not like the Alfa

764
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: wolf guy. No, no, no, no, no, okay. His kids

765
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: do not grow up to be what you would call

766
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: straight backed moral paragons. Not that they're bad people, but

767
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: you can kind of see how flawed his methods are

768
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: by what happens to his two sons, in particular, his

769
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 1: eldest son commits suicide in eighteen seventy seven, and it

770
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: seems as if mental illness is pretty common in his family. Again,

771
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: he seems to suffer from it, but it's his son,

772
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: Daniel who's going to become famous for it. And this

773
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: is like one of the most famous cases in the

774
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: history of like psych cology of a particularly of someone

775
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: with paranoid schizophrenia. His son is a guy named Daniel

776
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: Paul Schraper. He is subjected again. His dad writes about

777
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: testing his methods, testing these different torture devices on his

778
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: kids when they're little kids. So Daniel is subjected to

779
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: his father's strict discipline and these physical torture devices constantly

780
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: as a young child, and for a time he seems

781
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: to have grown into exactly the kind of disciplined, functional

782
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: adult that doctor Schraper wanted to create. He is appointed

783
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: a judge by the Ministry of Justice in eighteen sixty seven.

784
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: He is a judge for more than a decade through

785
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: the establishment of the German Empire, and in eighteen eighty

786
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: four he runs for a seat in the Reichstag. So

787
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: so far, we're like, well, this seems like the kind

788
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: of ultra productive, efficient German citizen that Schreber was seeking

789
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: to create through these methods.

790
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: Orders of people.

791
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, the aorrox of people. But when Daniel loses that

792
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: Reichstag election, he has a mental breakdown which causes him

793
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: to take he has to go spend six months in

794
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: an asylum. Now psychiatrists have since diagnosed what he was

795
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: likely suffering from as dementia, praecox, or paranoid schizophrenia. Essentially,

796
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: he had a psychotic break, right, Like, that's what went down.

797
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: He lost this election and he had a psychotic break.

798
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: At the time, it was assumed to be an isolated

799
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: incident and he did return to work. But a few

800
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: years later, after he became a presiding judge, his wife

801
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: had a stillbirth and he experienced another psychotic break. This

802
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: one did not get better, and he spent years institutionalized,

803
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: only being released in eighteen ninety nine, at which point

804
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: he wrote a memoir about his nervous illness. This is

805
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: one of the most influential texts in our early history

806
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: of understanding psychiatric illnesses, because Schreber is not just a

807
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: guy who's dealing with paranoid schizophrenia, before. It is something

808
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: that medical literature is fully described, has fully described. Schreber

809
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: is an educated man who is aware of the extent

810
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: of the delusions that he's suffering from and writes about

811
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 1: them in detail. And so this is an influential Yes,

812
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: it's very interesting, and it's oddly enough, Actually, Kurt Vonneget's,

813
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 1: one of his kids does something kind of similar. But

814
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: as a result of the fact that he writes this memoir,

815
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: we get this look inside of the head of someone

816
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: who has a thing that a lot of people struggle with.

817
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: Most of the people who struggle with it do not

818
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 1: have the advantage of this guy's education or social position,

819
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: so he is not just not only is he able

820
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: to write about what he's experiencing, but people pay attention

821
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: to it because this is a judge and they want

822
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: to know what happened to this very functional man.

823
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 2: Right.

824
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Freud writes a pretty noteworthy review of Schreber's memoirs, and

825
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: in true Freud fashion, he blames Daniel's disturbances and paranoia

826
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: on repressed homosexuality. Specifically, Freud is like, he wanted to

827
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 1: fuck his dad as a kid, then he wanted to

828
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: fuck his brother, and he couldn't you know he does

829
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: the Freud thing, right, Uh huh. This is kind of silly,

830
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: because Schriber does experience paranoid sexual fantasies, but not that kind.

831
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: Specifically writes that he woke up one morning with the

832
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: thought that it might be fun to quote succumb to

833
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: sex as a woman, right, And that is a pretty

834
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: normal thought, like a lot of people have thoughts about, like, oh,

835
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: it might be fun to experience this the other way,

836
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: Maybe that means that he was repressed and homosexual. Maybe

837
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: it's just a normal thought that a lot of people have.

838
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: But either way, Freud tides this directly to his schizophrenia,

839
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: which I don't think is accurate. It just seems like

840
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: a thing a person would experience. But Shatzman, who we've

841
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: quoted from before, pointed out that the delusions Schreber suffered

842
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: from that he describes in his book coincide directly with

843
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 1: the kind of experiments carried out by his father. And again,

844
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: I don't think what Judge Schreber does doesn't cause paranoid schizophrenia.

845
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: You can't cause that that way. But the nature of

846
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: the delusions that Judge Schreber suffers from are very much

847
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: influenced by what his father does to him as a child.

848
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: So in his book, Judge Shrubber uses the term miracles

849
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: to describe these kind of delusions that he is experiencing.

850
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 1: And it's hard to explain why he chooses the term miracle,

851
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: but that's not really important. What you need to understand

852
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: is that when he is talking about the term miracle,

853
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: he's essentially talking about a hallucinatory fantasy. And many of

854
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: these fantasies that he is gripped by as an adult

855
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: are based on his real childhood experiences. For example, he

856
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: describes the miracle of head compression with some regularity, which

857
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: he imagines as a gang of little devils that are

858
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: inside his head compressing it as though it's in a

859
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: vice by turning a screw right. He has these kind

860
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 1: of like fantasies of devils screwing his head in a vice.

861
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: And this is really interesting to me because it's like, yeah,

862
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 2: I'm really interested in when metaphor is a better way

863
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: to understand things, yes than other ways of describing it.

864
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: And so even the calling it miracle sort of ties

865
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 2: into that. In my mind, I don't understand, you know,

866
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 2: I haven't read this piece but no, this is because

867
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: we're looking at the period in which modern conceptions of

868
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: reality start developing, is the nineteen and early twentieth century,

869
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: and even the like a repressed homosexuality thing to be

870
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: a man who desires to experience sex like a woman

871
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: would have been essentially homosexual at that time in terms

872
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: of not just because it would have been a man

873
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: doing it to you, but like transness was not distinct

874
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: from oh no, homosexuality in the late Victorian like pre

875
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: nineteen ten or so.

876
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: Era, absolutely not. And there's there's you know this is

877
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: this is also it's kind of worth noting all considered

878
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: mental illness at the time too, totally, so like it

879
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: gets it all gets conflated together.

880
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so of course being like, oh, there's just

881
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: demons that do this thing to me, but it's like

882
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: not wrong. That's what's so interesting about there were demons

883
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: doing this to him.

884
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: And I think an aspect of like why he describes

885
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: these as miracles is that his dad, who is doing

886
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: this to him, kind of describes as like, I'm doing

887
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: this to help you, right, much like that mom fluencer

888
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: we talked about, right, like where you know you're abusing

889
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: the kid and telling them that I'm doing this because

890
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 1: I love you. Right, Doctor Shreber legitimately does think he's helping.

891
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: But what he's doing, like the fact that he fantasizes

892
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: about this gang of devil screwing his head and avice, well,

893
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: his dad is tying his head into a device that

894
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: causes it to like pull against his fucking like this

895
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: like bar strapped to his underpants or whatever whenever he

896
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: leans forward in shit. Right, My guess is that part

897
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: of what's happening here is that the different devices that

898
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: are used on him as a kid cause some lifelong pain,

899
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: and when he experiences that pain, he has kind of

900
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: a hallucinatory fantasy that attributes the pain to something not

901
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: all that different from its likely cause you know, that's

902
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: what I see is happening here.

903
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: Kind of that makes sense to me.

904
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: This is all debatable, but I think it makes sense.

905
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: And his paper Paranoia or Persecution The Case of Schreber,

906
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: published in the journal Salmagundi Morton Schatzman right quote. Why

907
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: did Shreber turn memories into miracles? My hypothesis is that

908
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: his father had forbidden him to see the truth about

909
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: his past. His father had demanded that children love, honor,

910
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: and obey their parents. As I illustrate later, he taught

911
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 1: parents a method explicitly designed to force children not to

912
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: feel bitterness or anger towards their parents, even where such

913
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: feelings might be justified. He wished to rid children of

914
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: dangerous feelings. Shreber, in order to link his suffering with

915
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: his father, would have had to consider his father's behavior

916
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: towards him as bad. This I infer his father had

917
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: forbidden him to do. He is enable or unwilling to

918
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: violate his father's view of what his view of his

919
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: father should be. Prohibited from seeing the true origin of

920
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: his torments, he calls them miracles. As a result, he

921
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: is considered crazy. Now again, Shatzman is writing here in

922
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 1: like the eighties, and he is also not talking about

923
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: any of this in a way that is contemporary to

924
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: our understanding of the actual medical science. Here also, Shreber

925
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: is considered crazy because he has paranoid schizophrenia, right, that's

926
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: the it's the kind of It's not that because he

927
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: describes these hallucinations as miracles, because he's having them in

928
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 1: the first place, that he is institutionalized and the like.

929
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: But I do think Shatsman is accurate in sort of

930
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: laying out that the form and nature of what delusions

931
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: Schreber faces are part are like influenced heavily by his

932
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: father's teaching techniques. And I, yeah, what I think is

933
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: most interesting about this is this idea. And again I

934
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: think this is kind of where Shatsman makes some mistakes,

935
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: but he's like, well, Schreber's technique, he wanted to make

936
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: it basically impossible for kids to like blame their parents

937
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: or feel bad like these were some of the bitterness

938
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: and angerness towards parents. These were some of the bad

939
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 1: feelings that he thought he could kind of smother in

940
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: an embryonic stage if you established in a physical discipline.

941
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 2: Which they would just call this exorcism. Yeah, a couple

942
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: hundred years earlier, but he has some masket in science

943
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 2: as if it's the same fucking thing.

944
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: But also, you know, as we talked about, Schreber is

945
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: not a mode uns. He's a guy who is trying

946
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: to actually help kids and who changes throughout it and

947
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: who comes up with some very positive things. And so

948
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: I think that Shatsman is kind of over applying well

949
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: because of his father's teachings. His son couldn't see the

950
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: harm that he had done. I think part of it

951
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: is that because of the good attributes of his father,

952
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: the son is unable to fully see the harm that

953
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: he did too, which is like, actually not a thing

954
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: that's even related to paranoid schizophrenia. That's something all of

955
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 1: us deal with, basically, like trying to separate the things

956
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: that our parents did that were flawed and bad and

957
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: even related to the fact that they are products of

958
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: their time from the things that they did out of

959
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: you know, love, out of self sacrifice that are good. Like,

960
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: that's a lifelong process for a lot of us, and

961
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: shatsmen doing this thing that a lot of people do

962
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: when they analyze cases of mental illness is kind of

963
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: wrapping it all up in the paranoid schizophrenia, where when

964
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: I read this, I'm like, oh, yeah, Schreber was like

965
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: grappling with the fact that his dad had a complicated legacy. Yeah,

966
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: and he was also had paranoid schizophrenia, So he did

967
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: it in a different way than most people do. But

968
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: I don't see that as being like, I think it's

969
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: a pretty rational thing to struggle with.

970
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 2: Actually, what it almost like puts him in a position

971
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: where he can see things, explain things in ways that

972
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: are like shocking. Yeah, that like still draw attention to it,

973
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: whereas if he had just stayed like by calling it

974
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: miracles and demons. I mean it made people pain him

975
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: as crazy, yeah, because he was experiencing reality differently than

976
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: other people. But yeah, it's it's it's shocking enough to

977
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: bring it out as compared to being like, I have

978
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 2: this chart describing exactly how much my pain feels different

979
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: every day. But yeah, some what my father did you know?

980
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, And speaking of what our fathers did, what

981
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: our fathers would all do if they were here right

982
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: now is tell us to buy the products and services

983
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: that support this podcast. Unless you have a bad relationship

984
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: with your dad, then your dad will be angry. If

985
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: you buy the products and services that support this podcast,

986
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: your stick it to the man or make him proud,

987
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: whichever is more profitable to us. We're back. So in

988
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: recent years, decades, really, there have been attempts to rehabilitate

989
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: doctor Schreber. And again that's not wholly irrational because like

990
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: the Schreber gardens, that's fucking great. His attitudes towards like kindergartens.

991
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 1: Some of what he says, is valuable when it comes

992
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: to the harm that his techniques, particularly these machines, caused

993
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: generations of children, and particularly how his philosophy of child

994
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: rearing contributed to the birth of Nazism. You know, I

995
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: think it's a mistake to correlate his teachings too strongly

996
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: with the coming of fascism, right, And there's a good

997
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: you know, one of the people who's kind of made

998
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: this point is a writer, Nam's v. Lothan, writing in

999
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 1: a nineteen ninety four issue of The New York Review

1000
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 1: of Books, quote, the generation that became the German Army

1001
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: or the SS Corps in World War Two, born around

1002
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: nineteen ten was unlikely to have been raised on more

1003
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: at Schaever's books forgotten by that time. That's a little inaccurate.

1004
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: According to Walter Havrnick's nineteen sixty four monograph Beating His Punishment,

1005
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: in the post World War One years, there was a

1006
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 1: decline in household beating and an increase in school beating

1007
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: ages nine to fourteen, correlated with fallen fathers. Not to

1008
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: mention the harsh and cruel training practices in the German Army.

1009
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: It is character assassination to apply the label to talitarianism

1010
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: to the Schaber's household or books, considering the complex causes

1011
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: of Nazi, anti Semitism, militarism, totalitarianism, and the results for

1012
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: Jews and others, and I quipple with bits of that.

1013
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 1: I agree with his ultimate point, which is that you

1014
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't say this is the guy who made the Nazis

1015
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: possible because of his child. There's so much more to

1016
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: it than that.

1017
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,439
Speaker 2: And it is the schools that right seems now society

1018
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: is your abusive father that you now have to owe

1019
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: your life to. And some of that is just because

1020
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: so many men died, but some of it certainly is

1021
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: that Schaber's teachings made their way worm their way very

1022
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 2: deeply into society's understanding of how children should be raised. Right,

1023
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,800
Speaker 2: that you should have this, You should very strictly enforce

1024
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 2: physical discipline because that leads to moral discipline. You have

1025
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 2: to do it from an extremely young age. Right, Schreber

1026
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 2: helps to reinforce in scientific eyes or whatever those attitudes

1027
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 2: in German society, and he is one of the is.

1028
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 2: He is part of the DNA of Nazism as a

1029
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 2: result of that. Right, but you also shouldn't you can't.

1030
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: Can't. You don't want to exaggerate or minimize his role

1031
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: in the Nazi equation, right because his methods are still

1032
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: being taught. ZV is wrong when he says that like

1033
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 1: kids were not being taught based on more at Schreber's

1034
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: books in nineteen ten, they absolutely will. One of the

1035
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: kids who in fact is being taught based on the

1036
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: Schreber method around the time that the Nazis come to

1037
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: power is a guy we're going to be talking about

1038
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: next week, Helmut Kintler. He's born in nineteen twenty eight

1039
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: and his parents are doctor Schreber fans again in the

1040
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: late nineteen twenties. Yeah, Kintler is ultimately the bastard that

1041
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: we are building to with this series. But I want

1042
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: to read this quote about his upbringing by Rachel Levive

1043
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 1: and the New Yorkers so you know how Shreber's teachings

1044
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 1: were being used popularly around the time that the third

1045
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: Reich rose to power. Quote. When Kinler misbehaved, his father

1046
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 1: threatened to buy a contraption invented by Shreber to promote

1047
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: children's posture and compliance, shoulder bands to prevent slouching, a

1048
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: belt that held their chest in place while they slept,

1049
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: an iron bar pressed to their collarbones so they'd sit

1050
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: up straight at the table. If Kentler talked out of turn,

1051
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: his father slammed his fist on the table and shouted.

1052
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: When the father talks, the children must be silent. And

1053
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, I want to end on that. We will

1054
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: be talking a lot about Kentler next week. He is

1055
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: by far the worst person we're talking about in this series.

1056
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: But it's important to know both that like the primary

1057
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: method by which Shrebber influences the Nazis is kind of

1058
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: deeper than a straight line. But there are still kids,

1059
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 1: and Kintler's dad is a Nazi officer. He's a member

1060
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: of the military High Command in Berlin, Lyn. They are

1061
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: still raising their kids based on a not insignificant number

1062
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 1: of people during the time that Hitler is rising to power,

1063
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: So that's important worth noting. And in part two, Margaret,

1064
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the guy, well, the lady

1065
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: that comes after Schreber, the mom fluencer, who is like

1066
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: the celebrity mom expert of the Nazi era, and I

1067
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: am excited to tell you about her. But first, Margaret,

1068
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: will you tell our listeners where they can find you

1069
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: on the Internet dot com.

1070
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: Well, if you go to the Internet doc I have

1071
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: no idea. What if it happens if you type the

1072
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:37,279
Speaker 2: Internet dot com into your website.

1073
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 1: Someone's bought. It's probably a scam.

1074
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is where you can find me, is

1075
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: at whatever website you find there. Or I have a

1076
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff, where I tell

1077
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 2: people positive stuff. It's kind of a lie. I tell

1078
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 2: people have positive stories, but it's usually be goes really

1079
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: badly in the end because it's about the struggle for

1080
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,720
Speaker 2: justice and we don't always win that one. I also

1081
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: have a book that is going to be kickstarted in

1082
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: June starting June tenth, and the pre launch page so

1083
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 2: you can sign up for information about it should be

1084
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 2: live around when this episode drops. And I wrote a

1085
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 2: teen ya book without any bad things. Of course there's

1086
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 2: bad things. It's a novel. Bad things have to happen

1087
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 2: in a novel called The Sapling Cage. And it's great,

1088
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: by the way, Yeah, Robert actually got it.

1089
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: It is my favorite piece of your writing so far.

1090
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: It's kid. It's the kind of book I wish I

1091
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,720
Speaker 1: had had to read as a kid, might have helped

1092
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: me get a couple of things straight earlier than I

1093
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 1: wound up doing. So, Yeah, the Sapling Cage reading books.

1094
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 2: You can sign up for the Kickstarter now, or you

1095
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: can sign up to be told about the Kickstarter Now

1096
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 2: by using Google.

1097
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: It's got witches and knights and a wide variety of

1098
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: lovingly described melee weaponry. So it's a classic.

1099
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: I was pretty into when I was writing this book.

1100
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,399
Speaker 2: Was when I was doing the most, going out every

1101
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 2: week with foam weapons and fighting yeah my friends. Yeah,

1102
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: and I really like spears and that it comes across.

1103
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 1: Look, you can tell who. You can tell who actually

1104
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 1: knows their medieval weaponry by who prefers the sword to

1105
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: a spear, right.

1106
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to be near that fucker.

1107
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no distance baby. Yeah. It's really

1108
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: the same with all weapons. The ideal weapons system is

1109
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: the one that keeps you furthest away from the enemy.

1110
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: You know. This is why they call artillery the king

1111
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: of battle, or used to before air strikes got really good. Anyway,

1112
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: if you want an air strike of content into your ear,

1113
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: Jamie's new podcast, sixteenth Minute of Fame will hit like

1114
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 1: a five hundred. Nope, okay, it's a good podcast. It's

1115
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: about what happens to people who are like the Internet's

1116
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,399
Speaker 1: main character after you know that all fades. What it's

1117
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: like being like focused on by the eye of souron.

1118
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: That is our culture's ability to like suddenly divert hundreds

1119
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 1: of millions of eyes to one person, and then what

1120
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: it's like after that. It's great shit. Check out sixteenth

1121
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 1: minute of fame.

1122
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 2: Is she gonna cover the thirty to fifty faral hogs? Guy?

1123
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 3: Oh?

1124
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, you can find it.

1125
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, Actually she was at my house and we

1126
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 3: had a bunch of people over or we're watching a

1127
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 3: movie and I look and it's like midnight.

1128
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: I look over at JB's screen.

1129
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 3: And she has like five hundred notes about thirty to

1130
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: fifty fars.

1131
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, the rightest man. The Internet did him dirty,

1132
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: but by he was right. He tried to warn us.

1133
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 2: He tried so hard.

1134
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, Part two more.

1135
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 3: Nazis Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1136
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1137
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1138
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

1139
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm