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Speaker 1: Just go with it. You have no control in this life,

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Speaker 1: and all you can control is the way that you

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Speaker 1: feel sometimes, and sometimes you can't even control that, So

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Speaker 1: just let go.

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Speaker 2: What's going on Hurdler's Emily a body Here. You are

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Speaker 2: listening to episode two hundred and fifty three of Hurdle,

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Speaker 2: a wellness focused podcast to reconnect with everyone from your

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Speaker 2: favorite athletes to top experts and industry CEOs about their

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Speaker 2: highest highs, toughest moments, and everything in between. We all

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Speaker 2: go through hurdles in life, and my goal through these

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Speaker 2: discussions is to empower you to better navigate yours and

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Speaker 2: move with intention so that you can stride towards your

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Speaker 2: own big potential and of course have some fun along

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Speaker 2: the way. For today's episode, I am on to bring

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Speaker 2: you my conversation with Steph Catch It All. She is

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Speaker 2: the author of the new book Everything All at Once,

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Speaker 2: So this episode comes out on pub day of the book,

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Speaker 2: which I will link in the show notes. And it's

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Speaker 2: an intimate, evocative memoir. Evocative seems like an understatement. It

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Speaker 2: is truly such a phenomenal read, and in it she

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Speaker 2: tells the story of her experience navigating anger and grief

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Speaker 2: over the loss of her father and her faith, as

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Speaker 2: well as the hurdles that went along with her husband

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Speaker 2: and durance athlete Tommy ribbs eighty four day battle with

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Speaker 2: lung cancer. In today's episode, Stuff talks about what it

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Speaker 2: was like when Ribs became ill and was put into

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Speaker 2: a coma at the height of the pandemic, as well

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Speaker 2: as what happened as a result of that. Her words,

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Speaker 2: again remarkable, also feels like an understatement. It's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to find the right words to talk about how

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Speaker 2: profound they are. I have been so drawn to her

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Speaker 2: writing since I started following her back in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and not just because she puts you

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Speaker 2: where she is.

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Speaker 3: She puts you right inside of her mind.

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Speaker 2: You get a snippet, you get a taste of how

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Speaker 2: it feels to be in her shoes, and that is

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Speaker 2: truly such a remarkable skill.

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Speaker 3: But beyond that.

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Speaker 2: The words are drenched in strength and resilience, and that

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Speaker 2: is so admirable. During today's episode, I ask Stuff about

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Speaker 2: how she has managed the influx of attention, what it

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Speaker 2: was like to mother There are Three Girls, when she

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Speaker 2: felt as though she was at her lowest point, as

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Speaker 2: well as how she takes care of her and her

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Speaker 2: feelings on hope when life feels grim and like she

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Speaker 2: says today, it really really did not to spoil it, though,

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Speaker 2: there is a silver lining here for those of you

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Speaker 2: that may be unfamiliar with Rivs's story. He is now

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Speaker 2: two years into your remission, which is just true July miraculous.

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Speaker 3: After the most hard fought battle.

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Speaker 2: It is so good to see him back out there,

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Speaker 2: back on the road, back on the trails, doing what

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Speaker 2: he loves, honor to have some of Stuff's time and

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Speaker 2: during this important time for her again. I will link

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Speaker 2: the book in the show notes. Please do yourself a

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Speaker 2: favor go check it out. Also make sure you're following

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Speaker 2: along with Hurdle over on social It's at Hurdle podcast.

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Speaker 2: I am over at Emily a body and with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to it. Let's get to hurdling.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 2: I am sitting down with Steph catch it all. She

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Speaker 2: is the author of the new book everything all at once.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing stuff?

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Speaker 1: I'm good, Thank you, glad to be here today.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy to have you here today.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I have been following writing for a really long time,

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Speaker 2: so I was so so so amped to get my

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Speaker 2: hands on your book, which I literally finished this morning.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh you finished it.

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Speaker 2: I felt appropriate, like leading into our convo that I

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Speaker 2: should have the knowledge.

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Speaker 1: You should know everything about my life, everything I want

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Speaker 1: to know it all.

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Speaker 2: Is it weird for you as you're starting to talk

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Speaker 2: to people who have finally read this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because, honestly, it's so funny. But I actually wrote

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Speaker 1: the book well, not really thinking that people were going

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Speaker 1: to read it. Of course, I had a book deal,

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Speaker 1: so I knew people were going to read it, but

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Speaker 1: I wrote it from such like an intense place that

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Speaker 1: I didn't really have any forethought about other people reading.

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Speaker 1: And so now that it's out in the world and

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Speaker 1: people are actually talking about me and my life and everything,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh wow, I really shared a lot. It's

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Speaker 1: I really got deep and personal, and but you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm really happy with it.

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Speaker 2: So you actually started writing this, as you wrote on

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Speaker 2: Instagram the other day, nine years ago, which is bizarre,

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Speaker 2: knowing what I've read that you never expected that the

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Speaker 2: book that you and I are both holding right now,

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Speaker 2: that is what would have been the final product.

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Speaker 1: Right. Well, Okay, so as you now that you've read

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Speaker 1: the book, you know that it's back and forth, so

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Speaker 1: chapter to chapter, going back and forth in time. And

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Speaker 1: so basically that whole first section of my life was

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Speaker 1: my original book. And that's kind of more or less

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Speaker 1: the book that I wrote nine years will started writing

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Speaker 1: nine years ago, but it always felt unfinished. I finished

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Speaker 1: the book. I even was searching for agents and everything,

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Speaker 1: but I kind of knew that the story wasn't finished,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't really know why. And now I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's because I was still learning about myself and I

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Speaker 1: was still healing, and I hadn't really gone through the

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Speaker 1: full circle process yet. And obviously, once you know, my

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Speaker 1: husband got sick, that's kind of when everything came around

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Speaker 1: and I in some way found my ending, which was

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Speaker 1: really just like an open ending beginning, as you you know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so it is crazy though that I just

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Speaker 1: it's like it's almost like I knew all along that

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Speaker 1: I was going to write a book. I just didn't

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Speaker 1: really know what I was going to say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I mean the writing, like I said itself,

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Speaker 2: is so so beautiful.

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Speaker 3: Two things to touch on. One.

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Speaker 2: I kind of giggle a little bit because this idea like,

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Speaker 2: I knew the healing wasn't done, but is the healing

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Speaker 2: ever really done?

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Speaker 1: Exactly well, And that's what I'm saying, it's not. And

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Speaker 1: that's what I had to learn. I think that I

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Speaker 1: thought when I was writing my first version of this book,

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Speaker 1: I thought I was quote unquote healed. I thought I

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Speaker 1: had figured it out. I thought, you know, I had

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Speaker 1: healed from this grief that I had carried my whole life.

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Speaker 1: And then when my husband got sick, when Ribs got sick,

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Speaker 1: everything just kind of cracked wide open. And what I

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Speaker 1: learned was you're never done healing, and just to accept

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Speaker 1: it and to continue on in the journey. And that

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Speaker 1: was such a beautiful realization for me. And that's why

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Speaker 1: my whole book is basically the journey to healing is never,

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Speaker 1: never ending, but it's also you continue to grow through

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Speaker 1: all of it. And so I needed to learn that

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Speaker 1: in order to finish my book right.

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Speaker 2: And now we've kind of referenced this twice now, so

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Speaker 2: we'll just like give a little foundation here. Steph is

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Speaker 2: married to Tommy Rivs Rivs during the COVID nineteen pandemic

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. Fell Ill originally assumed to be COVID nineteen,

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Speaker 2: but instead he was diagnosed with a rare and aggressive

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Speaker 2: form of lymphoma. The saying that still hearing that back

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Speaker 2: give you chills, it does.

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Speaker 1: It feels for two real. It feels so surreal in

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Speaker 1: that it was a different life, you know, coming out

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Speaker 1: of it. Now we're two and a half years out

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Speaker 1: of in remission for him, and it really feels like

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Speaker 1: a different life. We're both such different people now, you know,

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Speaker 1: in good ways and also in more kind of broken ways,

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Speaker 1: as you know people usually are after they go through

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Speaker 1: traumatic events. And it just feels like a lifetime ago.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, it's still so close to me,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think you ever distanced yourself too much

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Speaker 1: from something like that. But now when I see him

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Speaker 1: and you know, he looks so strong and so healthy.

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Speaker 1: You would look at him and he's running down the

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Speaker 1: road and I'm like, how did that human go through

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Speaker 1: so much? And now here he is again you would

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Speaker 1: never of course, he has internal you know, issues, lung

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Speaker 1: issues and everything, but from the outside he looks like

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Speaker 1: like the archetypal healthy human. So it's all pretty the real.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that kind of surreal within itself, though not just

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Speaker 2: within this situation, but that we don't necessarily think about

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Speaker 2: that when we come into contact with any human right

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Speaker 2: and knowing that there is so much that has happened

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Speaker 2: that on any given day we have no intel, no

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Speaker 2: background on and to be able to come into contact

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Speaker 2: with someone who has been through so much it happens

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Speaker 2: more than we even reckons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, really, it's cool that you brought it up.

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Speaker 1: It's such a metaphor, like him himself is a metaphor.

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Speaker 1: I mean on the outside, people just assume he's a

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Speaker 1: pro athlete still and that he's competing. I think people

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Speaker 1: are surprised when they see him running down the street

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Speaker 1: at probably, you know, like a twelve minute mile pace

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Speaker 1: because his lungs just can't support anything more than that,

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Speaker 1: and anything faster when he used to be you know,

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Speaker 1: like a five minute mile marathon her. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: so true. It's like everyone that we pass is holding

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Speaker 1: and carrying something inside them and we have no idea

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Speaker 1: what that is. And so for any if anything, it's

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Speaker 1: just made me be more compassionate and empathetic to people,

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Speaker 1: because yeah, it's just everyone has their I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Can I swear on this.

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Speaker 3: We can market exploit it.

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Speaker 1: Everyone has their crap.

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Speaker 3: Everyone does have their crap.

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Speaker 2: And I think that also when it comes to your story,

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Speaker 2: in particular, growing up and having to deal with your

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Speaker 2: father's diagnosis taught you from a very young e that

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Speaker 2: there was going to be some difficult moments ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and it's really interesting. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I've learned in the past few years is

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Speaker 1: I don't think that everything happens for a reason. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not one of those, you know. I

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Speaker 1: think it's fine if people believe that. I personally don't.

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Speaker 1: But I think you can look back on the hard

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Speaker 1: things that have happened to you and kind of assign

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Speaker 1: meaning to it for your own growth and your own

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Speaker 1: you know self, And looking back, I could see, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think my dad got sick for a reason,

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Speaker 1: but I see the lesson that I learned from it,

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Speaker 1: and I think those lessons better equip me to deal with,

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Speaker 1: you know, riv's illness. And in some twisted way, I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm grateful for that lesson that I learned through

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Speaker 1: my father's illness, because I think it kind of it

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Speaker 1: just kind of prepared me for what was to come

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Speaker 1: later on in my life. And so, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: it's this. It's just like this sad, sweet gratitude that

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Speaker 1: I have for that time in my life when I

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Speaker 1: was a teenager.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so talk to us a little bit about that

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Speaker 2: time in your life. Not only you said you had

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Speaker 2: lessons that you learned from your father's illness, maybe more

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Speaker 2: so now even looking back on it, but how did

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Speaker 2: you navigate the decline of your father?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was rough. I was still a kid. So

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Speaker 1: I was thirteen when my dad was diagnosed with terminal

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Speaker 1: lung cancer, which again is like this cruel irony that

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Speaker 1: it's not the same cancer but the same location. You

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Speaker 1: know that Rivs twenty years later was diagnosed with a

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Speaker 1: different form of lung cancer. I grew up in the

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Speaker 1: LDS religion, So I grew up Mormon, and my dad

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Speaker 1: wasn't Mormon, but my mom was, and so they had

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Speaker 1: a really beautiful relationship and he allowed her to practice,

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Speaker 1: you know, her faith and bring us up in the

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Speaker 1: church freely. So I was led to believe in miracles

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Speaker 1: and faith in prayer. And as my dad started to decline,

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Speaker 1: so did my faith because I had this idea that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I pray and if I'm really faithful,

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Speaker 1: then my dad will be healed. Though it's like this

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Speaker 1: linear equation, and so I dealt with it. I felt

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Speaker 1: like betrayed, I guess in some sense when my dad

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Speaker 1: finally did pass away, and because of that, I totally

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Speaker 1: rebelled against the church, against my mom, against my family

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Speaker 1: because I felt I mean, looking back, I could say

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Speaker 1: I obviously I wasn't betrayed. It's just life, you know,

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Speaker 1: Crappy things happened to people, and my dad was just

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Speaker 1: unfortunately one of those people. And uh, but I rebelled.

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Speaker 1: I started drinking heavily at the age of fourteen. You know,

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Speaker 1: I dated some very questionable people, as I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: read about in my book, lived in a van for

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Speaker 1: a week with this you know, older man. Anyways, I

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Speaker 1: did all these things out of anger because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: ready to confront my sadness.

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Speaker 2: So relatable and also understandable, right because you were in

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Speaker 2: a place where the things that you wanted or the

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Speaker 2: things that you were after felt at least all completely

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Speaker 2: out of your can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and in an interesting way, I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: could therapize this, you know, all you but in being

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Speaker 1: in feeling out of control, I spiraled more and more

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Speaker 1: out of control. My life by the age of nineteen

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Speaker 1: is just my life is a total mess. And it's

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Speaker 1: because I wasn't again ready to confront the grief that

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Speaker 1: I was carrying. And yeah, I think that that happens

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people, whether you're thirteen or thirty.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really really hard to know how to

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Speaker 1: deal with grief. I don't think there's a writer or

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Speaker 1: a wrong way, but that's just the way that I

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Speaker 1: chose to deal with it as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: What I really appreciated about your story as you were

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Speaker 2: navigating your grief and figuring out your path is that

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Speaker 2: when you decided that you wanted to go off to

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Speaker 2: college in Hawaii and you had to do I believe

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Speaker 2: it was an interview with someone from the church. You

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Speaker 2: walked into that interview and instead of completely lying to

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Speaker 2: them and telling them exactly what you thought that they

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Speaker 2: wanted to hear, you told them everything that you had

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Speaker 2: done that made you such a quote unquote fuck up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, there we go, there.

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Speaker 3: We did it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a really thinking back and writing that

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Speaker 1: part of the story was really like comical to me

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Speaker 1: because I still don't exactly know what was going through

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Speaker 1: my head, you know, as a I think I was eighteen,

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Speaker 1: as an eighteen year old going in to talk to

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Speaker 1: my bishop and could have easily lied and said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been following all the rules and everything. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if there was it was the kindness in

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Speaker 1: him that invited me into honesty, or if it was

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Speaker 1: just me. Maybe I had the sense of shame that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to like unload all of my quote unquote

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Speaker 1: sins and unburden myself. Or again, like I said in

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Speaker 1: my book, maybe I was just like fuck it, I

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Speaker 1: don't care, you know. And in some way it was

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Speaker 1: like an f you to God, you know, for killing

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Speaker 1: my Father's what I kind of felt as a teenager.

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Speaker 1: And again, the interesting thing was I was met with

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Speaker 1: so much love from that bishop. He was just like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I see your heart and it's good

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Speaker 1: and I don't really care about all those things you did.

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Speaker 1: And that was a really humanizing moment within the church

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Speaker 1: for me, because I think I had written off every

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Speaker 1: member of the church, of the Mormon churches, you know,

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Speaker 1: these self righteous people that had led me astray, But

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Speaker 1: along the way, I've met a lot, a lot of

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Speaker 1: kind hearted, well meaning members of my faith at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so have there been other instances in your

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Speaker 2: life where telling the truth or being honest has ultimately

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Speaker 2: led you astray?

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Speaker 3: Or have you found this to be a pattern that

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Speaker 3: serves you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good point, and I think writing

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Speaker 1: this book is an example of that. Like I laid

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Speaker 1: it all out there in this book. I was completely honest,

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Speaker 1: and it was painfully on it. Sometimes with myself, I

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Speaker 1: had to do a lot of introspection about the relationships

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Speaker 1: I'd had in my life and how I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: been destructive in some of them. And being that painfully honest,

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Speaker 1: I feel only helps you connect to other people. It

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Speaker 1: only makes you more relatable. It makes you more vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: But I think that vulnerability invites other people to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I've been there before, or I see myself in that honesty,

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Speaker 1: in that vulnerability, and it's only ever served me, even

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Speaker 1: though it's often the more difficult route to take. I've

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Speaker 1: written a few versions of my story, and in some

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Speaker 1: of them, I'm not as authentic to myself, and there's

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Speaker 1: something always pushing me in the back of you know, myself,

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Speaker 1: where whatever that place is to just push me into honesty, authenticity,

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Speaker 1: And again, like you said, it's never led me astray.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And did you feel when writing this that you were

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Speaker 2: ready to write this, that you ready to put this

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Speaker 2: into the world or was there a necessary waiting period

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 1: I feel like there was. I had to do it

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Speaker 1: right away. It was something because I've been asked that before,

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Speaker 1: like you. Basically, I started writing this book kind of

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Speaker 1: when Ribs was still sick. Part of it is because

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Speaker 1: writing has always been my way of understanding my own

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Speaker 1: emotions and understanding the world. Since a young kid, I've

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Speaker 1: been writing, and I think I needed to write to

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Speaker 1: understand what it is I went through and to kind

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Speaker 1: of be a catalyst for the onward process of healing.

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Speaker 1: And I knew if if I waited too long, I

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Speaker 1: might forget some of the kind of lessons that I

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Speaker 1: had learned from his illness and from that whole process.

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Speaker 1: Because even now, you know, two years later, I finished

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Speaker 1: writing the book about a year ago, and even now

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Speaker 1: I can't access those same emotions and I can't with

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Speaker 1: you know, absolute confidence say that, oh yeah, that really

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Speaker 1: did happen in that spiritual way or so. I feel

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Speaker 1: like the farther we distance ourselves from the pain of something,

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Speaker 1: the easier it is to forget what it really meant

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Speaker 1: to us. And so I wanted to just do it

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Speaker 1: right away.

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Speaker 2: So then let's bring it back to the beginning of

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Speaker 2: this journey. Then let's bring it back to you. At

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Speaker 2: the top part of the pandemic, Ribs goes out on

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Speaker 2: a run, just another run to the Grand Canyon, and

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Speaker 2: you don't think anything of it, but it doesn't end

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Speaker 2: like all of the other runs typically do what happens

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Speaker 2: to rivs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he had been He had done the exact same run,

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Speaker 1: which is Rim to Rim, which is I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe forty something miles across the Grand Canyon and back.

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Speaker 1: He had done that same run three days earlier, maybe

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Speaker 1: four days earlier, and it was pretty routine for him,

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Speaker 1: super fit guy. He was trying to get in shape

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Speaker 1: for the Olympic trials. But that night he got to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the canyon and he had felt off

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Speaker 1: the whole way down. But he thought he was just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, electrolytes were off or whatever. He got to

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Speaker 1: the bottom and he started to be completely out of

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Speaker 1: breath and his heart started to race, and so he

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Speaker 1: started to think maybe he had heat stroke or something,

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Speaker 1: and so he tried to continue on and finally he

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Speaker 1: just had to stop. And he was with his friend,

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Speaker 1: a videographer, guy videographer, Derek Lytel, and he was like, man,

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Speaker 1: I got to stop. So he laid on a picnic

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Speaker 1: bench and he thought he was going to die. He

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Speaker 1: said he had never felt so out of breath, his

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Speaker 1: heart had never raced so much, and he was dizzy,

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Speaker 1: and he just couldn't get control of his body, which

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Speaker 1: for someone like him, who was always in control of

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Speaker 1: his body, you know, it was a really scary feeling.

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Speaker 1: And I had never really ever seen him panic before.

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Speaker 1: And so I think after a couple hours laying on

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Speaker 1: that picnic bench, he knew if he didn't get himself

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Speaker 1: up and out of the canyon, he probably would die

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Speaker 1: because it was about one hundred degrees, and so he

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Speaker 1: did it. I think it took him ten hours to

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Speaker 1: get out, and it usually takes them, you know, like

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Speaker 1: less than two to run out of the canyon. And

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Speaker 1: that was the beginning of his sickness. And that's when

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Speaker 1: we thought he had got COVID.

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Speaker 2: There needs to be a note in here that, like

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Speaker 2: you said, this man training for the Olympic Trials, super athletic,

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Speaker 2: like this is his career, right is being as doing

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Speaker 2: these quote unquote crazy things to others anyway, And so

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Speaker 2: for him to come back and see him in this way,

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Speaker 2: how did that make you feel?

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Speaker 1: It was scary. It was rattling. Not so much his

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Speaker 1: physical state, because I had seen him pass out at

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Speaker 1: finish lines before I'd see him, do you know, But

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Speaker 1: it was more the way that he was talking about

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Speaker 1: the experience, like he actually was shaken. I could tell

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Speaker 1: he actually was scared, and that he had never I'd

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Speaker 1: never really, I've never seen him afraid before, even in

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Speaker 1: really sketchy situations, And so that unsettled me because he

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Speaker 1: was always kind of like I mean, this sounds really sad,

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Speaker 1: but he was always the strong one, I guess. I

401
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: always deferred to him for strength and for you know,

402
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Speaker 1: is this okay? Are we are we safe? You know,

403
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Speaker 1: We've been caught in like lightning storms in Japan, We've

404
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: been caught all around the world in sketchy situations, and

405
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Speaker 1: he's always like no, we're fine, it's cool. But I

406
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Speaker 1: could tell that he was scared, and that really that

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Speaker 1: scared me a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so in that place of being scared, how

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Speaker 2: did you show up for him?

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Speaker 1: Interestingly, I and surprising to myself, I kind of grew

411
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Speaker 1: within me the strength that I didn't know I had

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Speaker 1: in that, like, I had to step up and I

413
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Speaker 1: had to be the one that was going to call

414
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Speaker 1: the shots for him medically but also for him and

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Speaker 1: the kids. And it was a scary time, but it

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Speaker 1: was also a really empowering time for me to kind

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Speaker 1: of step into this role that I think I had

418
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Speaker 1: always been able to have and that was always offered

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Speaker 1: to me, but I just never took it upon myself

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Speaker 1: to be in that. It was a very I think

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Speaker 1: part of this whole healing journey that I'm on is

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Speaker 1: just kind of finding myself in my voice, and that

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Speaker 1: was that was the beginning of it for me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's like flexing a muscle or working a muscle

426
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: that you forget even exists until you have to do

427
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Speaker 2: it right. And then the next day you wake up

428
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: and just like your body is so sore from moving

429
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: in a way that you hadn't. You're emotionally so sore, right,

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Speaker 2: and so to deal with that and then realize that

431
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: it's not just a one time thing. Of these are

432
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 2: not one momentary decisions that you have to make, but

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Speaker 2: then we'll be ongoing.

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Speaker 3: How did that make you feel?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, and I'm still doing that today, of course.

436
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Speaker 1: You know, I wrote this whole book about self empowerment

437
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Speaker 1: and I still, you know, have often moments and days

438
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: where I question myself and question my intuition and my strength,

439
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: and it is just like healing, Like you said, it's

440
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: never finished. We never find ourselves, we never find our voice.

441
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: It's a daily choice and daily thing that we choose

442
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: to do. And I'm just more aware of it now

443
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: and more proactive in doing those things that just kind

444
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: of speak to me and who I want to be

445
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: and who I want to become.

446
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 2: Tell me about the day that you ultimately brought Ribs

447
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: to the hospital.

448
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an intense day. I had my sister

449
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: in law coming down with her three kids. We were

450
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: going to quarantine together for a month. She was living

451
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: in LA she needed to get out of there. So

452
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: the six of us were on our way to this

453
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: picnic in the woods, and we we drove down separately,

454
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: and Ribs was staying in the basement at the time

455
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: because we thought he had COVID, so we thought he

456
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: was quarantining from us, and I left him. I had

457
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: this feeling, you know, probably shouldn't leave him, but I

458
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: did anyway, and we were about thirty minutes into our

459
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: drive and I pulled into a gas station. I had

460
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: this overwhelming feeling, knowing a voice whatever that just said

461
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: go home now, check on Ribs. And I'd never been

462
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: an intuitive person because my dad had died. I didn't

463
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: believe in anything intuition wise, spiritual wise, anything like that.

464
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: But the feeling was so it's almost like it shook me.

465
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: And so I told my sister in law, you know,

466
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: can you take the kids. I got to go home

467
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 1: right now, and she's like, of course, go home. So

468
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: I got home and found him passed out. His lips

469
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: were blue, blood around his mouth, he had coughed up

470
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: a bunch of blood and he was just like gasping

471
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: for air basically. So I shook him. He finally came

472
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: to and I was like, Ribs, you need to go

473
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: to the hospital, and he was still adamant that he

474
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: didn't need to go to the hospital. I learned later

475
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: that he was super hypoxic, so basically so much carbon

476
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: dioxide build up in his blood that it was making

477
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: him irrational. But I eventually, after a few hours, got

478
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: him into the car and dropped him off at the hospital,

479
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: thinking it would be you know, maybe a few days that,

480
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, until I'd see him again. But that was

481
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: not the case.

482
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: And what you realized pretty quickly is that after a

483
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: few different tests, so this isn't COVID.

484
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. What was interesting was I think he had five

485
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: in hospital COVID tests that all came back negative. But

486
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: they kept testing him because the doctors, the specialists, everyone

487
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: was like, if it's not COVID, we don't have answers

488
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: because nothing else makes sense. They they thought maybe the

489
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: bubonic plague, from stepping on a gopher, maybe in the

490
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: Grand Canyon. They were coming up with all of these,

491
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, out there possibilities, because nothing made sense, especially

492
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: someone as healthy as him, and so they kept coming

493
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: back to COVID. That's what they really, like, really thought

494
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: it was. And so did we.

495
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when you were told, okay, this isn't COVID,

496
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 2: how did that make you feel. Knowing that there were

497
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: absolutely no answers on the horizon.

498
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: That was probably the most terrifying part of all of it, because,

499
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one thing to know that you have

500
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: a really serious illness and that's devastating itself, but the

501
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: thought of him possibly dying from an unknown cause, it

502
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: didn't I just couldn't accept that, Like, I couldn't accept

503
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: that he would die and there would be no there's

504
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: no way to save him because we don't know what

505
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: he's struggling with. It was terrifying. That was like the

506
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: most out of control, you know, feeling ever.

507
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 2: And you even write in the book when you get

508
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: the final diagnosis from the Mayo Clinic that it's cancer,

509
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: that you felt like you could breathe a little bit again.

510
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so strange. I felt almost a sense of relief.

511
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: One because we had the answer and at least, even

512
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 1: if it was terminal is what they were telling me,

513
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: at least there was some way forward we could try something.

514
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: And then the other was the relief came from it's

515
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: like I've done this before. My dad, you know, had cancer,

516
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: My little brother had cancer when I was a kid.

517
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 1: Cancer was something that was sadly familiar to me, and

518
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: so in some way it felt it felt comfortable, as

519
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,959
Speaker 1: scary and sad as it was to hear those words.

520
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to read an excerpt from the book,

521
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: and I'm going to skip around a little bit. Two

522
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 2: weeks after my brief hospital visit to RIVS, I experienced

523
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: depression for the first time. It started with a hollow,

524
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: whisper and ominous feeling of emptiness that lingered in my chest.

525
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: I went to bed each night begging for the feeling

526
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 2: to pass. I called out to the God of my childhood,

527
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: as though I could leverage omnipotence, as though life was

528
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: a bottle that could be filled with a limited amount

529
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: of sorrow, the rest benevolently absorbed by a deity or

530
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: absolved by good works. Eventually, the emptiness was a pair

531
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: of hands moving from my chest to my throat. I

532
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: was choked by it, but there was no way to

533
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: loosen its grip, Like an unspoken truth, the more I

534
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: tried to push it away, the tighter it held me.

535
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: It was debilitating, a total consuming of my being, extinguishing

536
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: any sense of self I might have held onto over

537
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: the years. Wow, Yeah, that depiction of your experience and

538
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: feeling of depression. The way that you articulated it is

539
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: like many of the other words in this book, so powerful.

540
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, that was I debated whether or not

541
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: to write about depression, not because I was embarrassed by

542
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: it at all, but just because it's it's a personal

543
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: thing that even if you've gone through it, it's hard

544
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: to explain to other people how it feels. And I

545
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: didn't want to not do it justice because it was

546
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: the most difficult thing I'd ever been through in my

547
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: whole life.

548
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 3: But I did.

549
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: I ended up so thank you for saying that it

550
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: was moving or powerful, because it was hard for me

551
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: to write that and know exactly how to describe it.

552
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: Hearing you read it back is like, oh man, that

553
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: was intense.

554
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was intense, and it's understandable, you know,

555
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: wanting to bring that sensitivity to something that's so many

556
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: individual Juwal's experience and really beautiful and powerful awareness that

557
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: you have, wanting to quote unquote do it justice for you.

558
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: You said, truly, it was just such a difficult time.

559
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: Beyond the feelings that you were experiencing, what else made

560
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: going through depression at this particular time in your life

561
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: feels so challenging.

562
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: I feel like the first time I ever felt depression,

563
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: I was nineteen years old, and I felt really lonely.

564
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: I felt as though I was a student in Hawaii

565
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: at the time, surrounded by a lot of members of

566
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: the LDS religion, and a lot of them were telling

567
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: me that the reason for my depression was because of

568
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: the path of sin. I had chosen the path of rebelliousness.

569
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: And I even went to a school counselor and she

570
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: basically told me that it's because I've been, you know,

571
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: denying Christ. And that's fine to believe that, but it's

572
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: also really damaging to tell someone going through true depression

573
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: that they brought it on themselves through their choice, you know,

574
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: And because that only compounds the feelings of guilt and

575
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: shame that you already inevitably feel from being depressed, and

576
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: you feel even more like a burden. And so that

577
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 1: I felt very, very lonely at that time in my life.

578
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: But again, like I said earlier, with my dad's sickness,

579
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: what it did was equip me for being able to

580
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: deal with those deep, hard feelings later in life when

581
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: I had more people depending on me. So when I

582
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: went through depression later in life, when I had kids,

583
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: and after Ribs was sick, and this was just a

584
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I went through another bout of

585
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: depression after Ribs was in remission. I knew how better

586
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: how to deal with it because I had done it before,

587
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: and it again, like cancer, it felt familiar to me.

588
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: It felt like this sad old friend that I was like, oh, hey,

589
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: you know again, Okay, let's do this, you know. And

590
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: it was difficult, but a little less so because I

591
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: had done it before.

592
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's this through line of knowing that the

593
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: difficult moments can be our teachers, but that doesn't necessarily

594
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: mean that they are any less difficult, and the execution

595
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: or the experience.

596
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: Of them, no, not at all. And I think for me,

597
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: the only way it was a little easier was I

598
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: remember the first time I went through depression feeling like

599
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: this is never going to end. This is my life now,

600
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: and I will never feel okay again. And it took

601
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: a long time, but eventually I did, and I lived

602
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: the best years of my life after depression. I was

603
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: the happiest I'd ever been for years and years and

604
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: years and years and so when I went into depression again,

605
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: I knew that even though the really powerful voices in

606
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: my mind telling me that this was forever thing, I

607
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: knew that I was going to come out of it eventually,

608
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: and that was what made it easier, knowing that my

609
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: best years are again ahead of me like they were before.

610
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: So I think that for me was like, Okay, all right,

611
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: you know I can do this. Let's just accept and

612
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: allow and go with it.

613
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, I'm hearing you say, which is truly beautiful.

614
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: Considering everything that you have been through that you have

615
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: learned how to befriend hope. How do you hold on

616
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: to hope when at times it feels like hope is fleeting?

617
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 1: Yeah? Good, good question. I've struggled with hope, I mean

618
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: since my dad died again because I felt betrayed by

619
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: this idea of hope. I never liked the idea of it,

620
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: but hope was what got me through Rib's illness. And

621
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: I see hope a little differently now. I used to

622
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: think that it was hope for an expected outcome, and

623
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: you know, you put all of your energy and hoping

624
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: and just expecting these good things to happen or the

625
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: best outcome to happen. And now I realized that hope

626
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: is just a feeling of love and being carried in

627
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: love without expectations, almost as though no matter what I know,

628
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: I'll be okay and no matter or the outcome. And

629
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: that's the only way that I can reconcile this idea,

630
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: because Ribs could have easily died, and then what would

631
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: that have meant that the hope that I had felt

632
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: that whole time was obsolete or wrong? And the answer

633
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: is no, is because it carried me through. And just

634
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: because it was a positive outcome doesn't change the nature

635
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: of hope itself. And so I look at hope now,

636
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: is just this just kind of like current of love

637
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that you can follow no matter no matter what the

638
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:31,959
Speaker 1: outcome is, without expectation.

639
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: It brings me to that concept of energy attracting energy, right,

640
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: And when you have hope, then it is more likely

641
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 2: that you will act in a way that gets you

642
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: whatever you are after.

643
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: At least that's what I will argue, right.

644
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: So arguably, the hope that you had encouraged you to

645
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: go out of your way to advocate for Ribs in

646
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: a way that no one had been doing, and ultimately

647
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: got him to transfer hospitals, find a different medical team,

648
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 2: and get on a machine that arguably, over time, helps

649
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 2: save his life.

650
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's another good point, is like hope is

651
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: also actionable. You can do things. You can't just hope

652
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: for things and just sit around and be passive about it.

653
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really great point. It's like

654
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: I didn't just hope. I worked my ass off to

655
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: get him the best medical care, to get him transferred

656
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: to a hospital with a team doctors that we had

657
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: hope for him. Again this word hope that the flag

658
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: Staff doctors unfortunately were at their max capacity. They didn't

659
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 1: have the necessary medical intervention tools to save his life.

660
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: So they had no more hope for him. That's what

661
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: the nurses told me. They've given up on him. And

662
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: so I had to get him out of that hospital

663
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: and to a hospital where hope still existed, you know.

664
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: And so that was a lot of work, and again

665
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: that was kind of encompassed in this hope that I

666
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: had too. It's just it was action that I took.

667
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: I know, I know money can be a weird thing

668
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: to talk about, but during all of this, was that

669
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 2: something that scared you and searching out possibilities.

670
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: It definitely did, because what people were telling me was,

671
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 1: I think Echmo is something like fifteen thousand dollars a day,

672
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: and then the ventilator's five thousand dollars a day, and

673
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: that's just to run those those machines. That doesn't take

674
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: into account the actual hospital room. So in my mind,

675
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: that obviously scared me. But luckily, at the same time,

676
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: there was this GoFundMe going on for Rivs, and the

677
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: online community just rallied together in a way that I

678
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,479
Speaker 1: had never seen before to help our family, not only

679
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: with medical expenses, but we had to move our whole

680
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: family to Phoenix, two hours away because that's where Ribs

681
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: was being hospitalized, and so we had to leave our

682
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: house fine housing. Obviously no one was working, and the

683
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: donations that people were contributing basically kept all of us alive,

684
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: very literally for Ribs and you know, for me too,

685
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: because how else would I have been able to survive

686
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: those that year and a half. And that was just

687
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: such a beautiful display of love for our family, but

688
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: for Ribs too, And I remember thinking, I want you

689
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: to wake up, because I want you to see how

690
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: much people love you. I don't think he ever realized

691
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: how much he'd impacted people's lives through his running career,

692
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: but also through just his kindness. He would always respond

693
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: to people who were in need online or in person,

694
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: but he did it so so not thoughtlessly, but just

695
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: it wasn't a burden to him, and so he never

696
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 1: realized what a big impact he had had on other people.

697
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: And so I just I remember, just I've told my sister,

698
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: if he could just wake up and see how much

699
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: the world loves him, that's all I want. And you know,

700
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: eventually he did and was able to just see how

701
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: the world basically came together for our family.

702
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 3: Where were you when he woke up?

703
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so this is waking up is not what

704
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: people expect. And I've said this a few times on

705
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: different podcasts, because I think in my mind, waking up

706
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 1: was just you're in a coma and then you open

707
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: your eyes and you're like, oh, where have I been

708
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: the past? And there's this beautiful knowing and reunion and

709
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: everyone's so happy and really yeah, exactly, yeah, And I

710
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: was not prepared for the waking up process, which if

711
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: you've seen it, you know it's a long, tortuous terrifying

712
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: process because he was super delirious, didn't understand what was happening,

713
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: didn't recognize me. On a lot of days, thought we

714
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: were on a boat, thought we were in California. He

715
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: it was really really a sad, scary feeling.

716
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: But we were.

717
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: In the Phoenix Hospital in Scottsdale when he first quote

718
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: unquote woke up and started to respond to outside stimulus.

719
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, wow.

720
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: And so that was, if I'm not mistaken, a total

721
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 2: of eighty four days in a medically induced coma. During

722
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: those eighty four days, how did you take care of you?

723
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: Good question. I probably have a lot of unpopular answers

724
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: to this one.

725
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: I don't expect you to say that, like I'd go

726
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: for casual runs, or i would meditate in the morning,

727
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: like actually.

728
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: I'm not affecting that.

729
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I mean, I'm sure there's an expected, like,

730
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, really healthy answer to that. But well, a

731
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: few things. So I'll preface that by saying, my mom

732
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: and Rib's mom flew out to Phoenix and lived with

733
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: me the entire ten months of his intense treatment to

734
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: take care of our three daughters, who were at the

735
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: time homeschooled. Had to quarantine, couldn't be with friends the

736
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: entire time, so it's not like we could just, you know,

737
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: bring them to friends houses or drop them off at school.

738
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: They were home twenty four to seven, and I knew

739
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: I needed to be with Ribs throughout the day because

740
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: I was almost like his lifeline to the outside world.

741
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: And even the doctors told me having someone physically in

742
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: the room with someone critically ill dramatically changes the outcome,

743
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: whether they live or die. And I was fortunate enough

744
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: to be granted that access to the hospital during COVID

745
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: when no one else was, and that was a privilege

746
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: that I do not take for granted. But how did

747
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: I take care of me? I drank a lot of alcohol.

748
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: I did, and I'm not saying that was what was

749
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: taking care of me, and I don't advocate for doing that,

750
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: but it was the only way. Having a couple big

751
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: glasses of wine at the end of the day was

752
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: the only way that at the time I knew how

753
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: to turn off my mind because every day was so

754
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 1: highly intense in the ICU alarms beefing, and I'm sure

755
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: every therapist is going to say this is the wrong

756
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 1: Dame advice again, not giving advice, but that's what I did.

757
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: I did, And I would also take myself out to dinner.

758
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: I had to sit alone. I had to be super

759
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: careful to not be around people because if I brought

760
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: anything in to the hospital, you know, that would be detrimental.

761
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: But I would take myself out for dinners and then

762
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: I would write. And those are the three things that

763
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: helped me stay sane during that time. And things that

764
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: don't serve me anymore, like, you know, in a normal circumstance,

765
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: like drinking is not I mean I do it casually,

766
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: but it's not you know, a normal daily thing. But

767
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: at that time, Yeah, it really helped me just kind

768
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: of like bring me.

769
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to hear that, knowing that you had

770
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: a past of dealing with like arguably, let's say substance

771
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: abuse went to AA at one point. So now to

772
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: be able to have this different relationship with alcohol where

773
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: you actually feel like it's serving you, I think that's

774
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: a I don't want to say like a plot line

775
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: because it makes it sound like it's not legitimate, But

776
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: like a plot line you don't hear very often.

777
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I remember talking to my sister about it

778
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: a lot. She was my lifeline through all of this.

779
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: We were just saying that, you know, it's not the

780
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: it's maybe not the right thing to do. It's not

781
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: the right answer. And especially because I had, you know,

782
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: relied on alcohol before, it felt different. When I was

783
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 1: a teenager, alcohol was a means of rebellion and a

784
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: means of it was an angry thing, it was a

785
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: rage thing. It was a destructive thing and a reckless thing,

786
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: and I put myself in a lot of dangerous situations.

787
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: When Ribs was sick, it was My sister has a

788
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: picture of my bedside table with like three bags of

789
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: chips and like four empty glasses of wine, just like, Oh,

790
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: I was a mess. I mean I think I put

791
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: on I think that I put on this you know,

792
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: stoic kind of like I don't know, grace or something

793
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 1: to the community. And I felt that way a lot

794
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: of times. But I also I was a mess behind

795
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: the scenes, and I also don't I'm not ashamed of that.

796
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: I mean, anyone who's been through really difficult things knows

797
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: that you just can't keep it together all the time.

798
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: And so you know, drinking a glasses of wine in

799
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: my bed felt a lot less reckless than it had

800
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, you know.

801
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, on that note of putting on

802
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: a little bit of a stoic face, I actually found

803
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: it just really beautiful and also humanizing to read about

804
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: your honesty when it came to your girls, being able

805
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: to allow both to be strong but also to cry,

806
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 2: and knowing that for you, that was the right way

807
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: to process the grief that you were living with during

808
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: this time, navigating something that was truly unfathomable.

809
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. I look back and I question a lot. Did

810
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: I do the right thing? Did I show them too much?

811
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: Or did I hide too much from them? Was I

812
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: not honest enough with them? Was I too honest? And

813
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 1: I think that the answer is there is no right answer,

814
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: and there's no there's no right way to deal with grief,

815
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: and there's no right way to talk to your kids

816
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: about grief. I think there's probably a lot of books

817
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: written on it, and I'm sure there are a lot

818
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: of things that people say you should do, But until

819
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: you're in the midst of it, I think that it's

820
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: impossible to know and to say and give advice about

821
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: what to do, you know. I try to be as

822
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: open now with my kids as possible about do you

823
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about it that hard time, that was

824
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: really hard seeing dad so sick, or having Dad in

825
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: the hospital, And they usually don't really care to talk

826
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: about it much. But if they do, then I'm open

827
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: to talking about it. But at the time, it's something

828
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: else to grieve yourself and then to also carry the

829
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: grief of your children along with that. It compounds, and

830
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 1: it is it's suffocating, and it's almost like, in order

831
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: to save yourself, you want to save your kids from

832
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: the pain that you're experiencing. And I tried to balance

833
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: the two. But I don't know if I did it right,

834
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: and I don't think anyone does it right.

835
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: I mean, the reality of it is like it is

836
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: how it is, like that's done and all there is

837
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: now is moving forward. So before we talk about what

838
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 2: moving forward has looked like for you and your family,

839
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about what it was like

840
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: when Rivs finally came home.

841
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was really hard. He came home

842
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: ninety five pounds. He is six foot one, you know,

843
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: normally one hundred and seventy if he's not in marathon shape,

844
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: and one hundred and fifty five if he's in marathon shape,

845
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: so he'd lost I don't know, what's that like a lot,

846
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: and he looked skeletal. He had no hair, he had

847
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: no eyelashes. He looked really, really scary. And the interesting

848
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: thing was, like I remember Ribs while wheeling him into

849
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: our bedroom where he would be you know, I was

850
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: his basically his home nurse. I had to feed him

851
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: through a tube in his stomach. He couldn't eat yet

852
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: by you know, mouth, and I remember being so worried

853
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: about what the kids were going to do or how

854
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: they were going to react. And he got in bed

855
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: and they ran right into bed with him, snuggled right

856
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: up next to him, and without any It's like it's

857
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: almost like they were able to see him better than

858
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: anyone else could. It's like, that's still my dad. It

859
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what your flesh sack looks like, like you

860
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,919
Speaker 1: are in there, you know, like that's you. And they

861
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: saw that better than anyone, I think, and it was

862
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing. Actually, when Ribs was still in the

863
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 1: rehab hospital, he he hadn't yet come home, they gave Harper,

864
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: who was at the time was eleven, they let her

865
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: visit him, and again I was so nervous. I knew

866
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: what it looked like, what it felt like to have

867
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: a sick dad and to see him not look like himself,

868
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: and so I was really protive of her, and she

869
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: did the same thing. She went right up to him,

870
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: got in his tiny little hospital bed and snuggled next

871
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: to him, and it was just it was just so

872
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: beautiful to see that, Like, kids are so much stronger

873
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: and so much more open than I think we give

874
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: them credit for. And I was just so proud of

875
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: my kids for just being you know, just being so brave,

876
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: but also acknowledging that it was a really sad time

877
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:27,240
Speaker 1: at the same time.

878
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: What if we were all like that?

879
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: I know, right, I thought that over and over, like, man,

880
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 1: what can all the things I learned from my kids

881
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: during that time? And it was just it was it

882
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: was the hardest time of our lives, but it was

883
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: also probably one of the most beautiful times of our lives.

884
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: Ribs probably wouldn't say that, I know he's going to

885
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: be like that was not a beautiful time of my

886
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: life to feel that way. I know it wasn't. But

887
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: there was this sweet piece that came with him being home,

888
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: all of us being together, we have to quarantine. He

889
00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: was at least for the time being, he was in

890
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: room and just celebrating that and being in that moment.

891
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: It was a really beautiful thing, at least in the

892
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: time being. Does that allude that it came back. No,

893
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: So that was maybe a misspeak. But at the time

894
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: when he came back, they told us that it was

895
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: a ninety percent chance that he would relapse within a

896
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: few months.

897
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

898
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: So during that time that he came back in late

899
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: November and he was in remission in January, and so

900
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: we were really just holding our breath and so I

901
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: remember just really wanting to soak in each and every

902
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: moment that we had him home because they told us

903
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: that more, I mean more than likely he would be

904
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 1: back in the hospital soon.

905
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 2: What a crazy, crazy thing to like not only get

906
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: this miracle that you got this time back, but then

907
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: to not have to go back into what you had

908
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: just experienced. Like it's hard to even fathom or put

909
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: into words, like to give that a label of how

910
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 2: beautiful that truly is.

911
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it truly is. And even to this day, I mean,

912
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: we're two and a half years out and he still

913
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: hasn't relapsed. With which in itself is a medical miracle.

914
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: I mean, the relapse rate for nkt sellomphoma is astronomical.

915
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: It's i mean almost a sure thing. And so we're

916
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: still in this holding pattern. But at the same time,

917
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: each day that goes by, we're just a little bit

918
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: more and more in the clear. But all it does,

919
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: it's terrifying, But it also just makes us appreciate every

920
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: day and every moment that much more, you know, and

921
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: like all the little mundane things that used to be trivial,

922
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: you know, just like coffee in the morning, where you know,

923
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: going on walks or runs. It's just everything is just

924
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: that much more meaningful and it's a beautiful way to live.

925
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: I hope no matter what happens, I get to live

926
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: like that, you know, the rest of my life.

927
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 3: How are you different now?

928
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: So I'm Rips would say I'm super different. I feel different,

929
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: but I feel more like me than I've ever been,

930
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: and so I feel I feel stronger in some ways

931
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: for sure, like I feel like I was. I'm in

932
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: that mode of like choosing to step into my power

933
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: every day and like using my voice, even though I'm

934
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: generally a shy, introverted person. And kind of pushing myself

935
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: to do things that I wouldn't normally do, which yeah,

936
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: I mean even in podcast interview would have terrified me

937
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. It still does. But you know,

938
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: and then in some ways I'm a little more broke.

939
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I am more broken in some ways. I

940
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: definitely think a lot more about mortality, about I worry

941
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 1: about my kids getting sick, probably more than is healthy.

942
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: I think about worst case situations a lot, but I

943
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 1: kind of just I try to just allow. My mantra

944
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: is lately is just allow, just allow whatever feelings or

945
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 1: thoughts are coming my way because I can't control them,

946
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: and just allow and then just kind of let them

947
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: go because I don't have control over pretty much anything.

948
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: And that's okay. You know. I think I spent so

949
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: much of my life trying to like be in control

950
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: or trying to navigate like an outcome, a given expected outcome,

951
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: and try to push for that thing. And now I'm

952
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 1: just about just allow and see what each day brings,

953
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: because that's the way of life. There's no other way,

954
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: So why not just give into that.

955
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: You know, how has your family is life changed?

956
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: It's changed in that I think that we appreciate each

957
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: other more, and then we appreciate the time that we

958
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: have more. Not every day. The kids still fight like crazy,

959
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, we still have our normal bickers and everything.

960
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: But just to be acutely aware of the fragility of life,

961
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: I think brings a gratitude, and I think that we

962
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: all live with that gratitude and try to make the

963
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,839
Speaker 1: most of each day and again. And that's been a really,

964
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: really beautiful thing.

965
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 3: For someone who says.

966
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: That a couple of years ago a podcast interview would

967
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: have frightened her or made her feel intimidated or scared,

968
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: I'm curious to know how it felt. Once more and

969
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 2: more people started following along with your journey, and then

970
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: in turn, via social media, following along with you.

971
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, such a weird thing, because again, I am a

972
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: really shy, introverted, private person more or less, and so

973
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: is Rivs if you really know him. And I think

974
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: I started sharing online because at the time I was

975
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,440
Speaker 1: really lonely. It's really a lonely thing to go through

976
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: a tragedy, but to do it during COVID when you

977
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: can't be close to your friends is really really hard.

978
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: And I started writing because I was going to write

979
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: either way, and so I started sharing that online and

980
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: what happened was so many people reached out and said, I,

981
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: I haven't been through what you've been through, but I've

982
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: felt the way that you felt, or I feel the

983
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: way that you feel. And having that human connection, even

984
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: though it was virtual, it just made me feel understood

985
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:17,359
Speaker 1: and heard and so loved in a time where I

986
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: was really isolated. Of course I had my mom and

987
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: Riv's mom and my sister who would come out often,

988
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 1: but I was really disconnected from the world and that

989
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: was like a lifeline to me. To It was almost

990
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: like I was throwing out this like booie, being like,

991
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 1: do you guys understand you guys see me? And then everyone,

992
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: not everyone, but people would and it felt so comforting

993
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: to do that at the time. Now that we're a

994
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: couple of years out, I feel myself retreating more, you know,

995
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 1: posting less online just because again it's I am, like

996
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: by nature, an introverted, private person, and so I feel

997
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: myself wanting to pull back. Also knowing that my book

998
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: is about to be out in the world and that's

999
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: tmi for everyone as it is, so they probably don't

1000
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: need more of my life out there, but yeah, it was.

1001
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: It could have been scary, but it was actually a

1002
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: really beautiful experience for me.

1003
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as a writer myself, having been a

1004
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: career journalist, to read your words there just bring such

1005
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: like a sense of authenticity and just like there's so

1006
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: much depth to the way that you write. And so

1007
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: I see and hear you saying like, I don't really

1008
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 2: know if this is for me anymore, and I respect

1009
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 2: and encourage you to follow the path that feels right,

1010
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: but I will also be happy to be one of

1011
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: the many people I'm sure that tells you that your

1012
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 2: words are just truly so profound and so helpful to

1013
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 2: so many. So I do hope that, in whatever capacity

1014
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 2: feels right for you, you continue to write, not just because

1015
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 2: you feel like you've overshared in your book.

1016
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for saying that. I'm sure I will. I

1017
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: can't not write. I mean, I will. That's what I've

1018
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: that's all I've ever done. But I guess I'm like,

1019
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: maybe I'm taking a little breather, you know, from that,

1020
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: And I'm sure I'll breather.

1021
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 2: So as we start to wind down here, staff, we're

1022
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: talking about social media. Some of these people they come

1023
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 2: to your page, they see this woman that many have

1024
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: just simply identified as Tommy Riv's wife. Now they also

1025
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 2: see a woman who is a new author, vulnerable beyond

1026
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: compare at points when you look in the mirror, what

1027
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 2: is it that you see looking back at you?

1028
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: Good question? I see. I think I just see someone

1029
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: who's still growing up. And that's okay, Like I see,

1030
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: I see this woman who has this whole life, these kids,

1031
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: you know, now, this book, and I'm still just growing

1032
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: up and learning to love and accept exactly where I'm

1033
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: at is what I'm striving for. I think I spent

1034
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: a lot of years of my life kind of ashamed

1035
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: of the choices I had made, or just kind of

1036
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: angry at myself for being so reckless, and now I'm

1037
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: just accepting all of me and accepting that the crazy

1038
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: parts of me are also equally valid parts of me,

1039
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: and they make me who I am and that's a

1040
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: beautiful thing. And so yeah, I think I just see

1041
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:24,799
Speaker 1: a whole woman who's still growing.

1042
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:25,959
Speaker 3: Up, A whole woman.

1043
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: What would you say the best thing was that someone

1044
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: did for you over those ten months, and the worst

1045
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 2: thing that someone either did for you or toward you.

1046
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: During those time months, I had so much love. I'm

1047
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: so I'm so so lucky. I feel like I had

1048
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: it hard, but I also had it really easy in

1049
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: terms of what could have been. And so the best

1050
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: thing that someone did was, I mean, just my close

1051
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: friends and my family, my sister and my mom just

1052
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: showing up for me and allowing me to be exactly

1053
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: what I needed to be in the moment. Even my

1054
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: sweet LDS mom was like totally open with me drinking

1055
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: a bottle champagne in the morning. She was like, good

1056
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 1: morning stuff. And just her accepting me exactly the way

1057
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: I was and how I needed to show up. That

1058
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: was the best thing that anyone could have done for me.

1059
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: The worst was the advice givers to say that, oh man,

1060
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: and especially advice givers with respect to ribs, and I

1061
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: know that they came from a good place and that's

1062
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 1: why it's hard to say that, but people who would say,

1063
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'm Thanksgiving. I posted a photo and there

1064
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 1: was like a bunch of meat and cheese and someone

1065
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,720
Speaker 1: was like, well, that's probably why you got cancer because

1066
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: you're eating carcinogens and dairy just those things that just

1067
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 1: are not helpful. Even if they are true, scientifically whatever,

1068
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: you don't need to hear those things at such a

1069
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: really critical time in your life. And so I've learned

1070
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: through that, you know, not to give advice and solicited

1071
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: advice to people who are going through difficult times. All

1072
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: people need is someone to just accept them exactly where

1073
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: they're at. And yeah, well, oh my gosh.

1074
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: I haven't mentioned this until now, but as we really

1075
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: wind down, I find it now is a good time

1076
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: to tell you that after Boston, not this year, but

1077
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: last year, I actually had breakfast with your husband. It

1078
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: was me and Tommy and Lisa at a Tata and

1079
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 2: it was after that like crazy experience that he had

1080
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: and he literally just walked in and was like he

1081
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 2: just woke up and it was another day. And in

1082
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 2: my head, I'm like, I'm a mess normally after running

1083
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: a marathon.

1084
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 3: Like hobbling, not well whatever.

1085
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: Nevertheless, conquering a twenty six point two mile race after

1086
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: everything else he had conquered over the last you know,

1087
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: at that point year and a half, So just a special,

1088
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 2: special soul. And it goes without saying that the two

1089
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: of you certainly share this like common beautiful energy. And

1090
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 2: I can see from talking to you over the last hour,

1091
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 2: why it's such a good fit and how great it

1092
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: is that you fought for him.

1093
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you for saying that we're so different and

1094
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: it works. That's all. I like Yin and Yang to

1095
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: the tea. Our joke is and I have a tattoo

1096
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: it says one hundred percent, And the joke is, you know,

1097
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: he and most people in my life live at one

1098
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: hundred percent and I live at fifty percent, and that.

1099
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 3: Works for me.

1100
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 2: Oh man, Well, right now, my friend, do you have

1101
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: an opportunity to offer yourself a piece of advice?

1102
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 3: Let's go back to the thick of it, back.

1103
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 2: In the hurdle moment when you find out that not

1104
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 2: only does ribs Of has cancer, but we're gonna have

1105
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: to put him into this medically induced coma. You have

1106
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 2: an opportunity to offer yourself a piece of advice. Looking

1107
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 2: back on that hurdle moment, knowing what you know, now,

1108
00:58:54,800 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: what do you tell yourself who probably that you should just.

1109
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: Learn to let go? That's it. Learn to let go.

1110
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: That was probably the biggest lesson I had to learn,

1111
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: learn to let go and just be water. That's I mean,

1112
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: I think Bruce Lee said that, but just go with it.

1113
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: You have no control in this life, and all you

1114
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: can control is the way that you feel sometimes, and

1115
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 1: sometimes you can't even control that, So just let go.

1116
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: Staph, thank you so much for your time today. This

1117
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: has been something that I've been looking forward to for

1118
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: a really long time. How do the hurdlars follow along

1119
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: with you? How can they get your book? Give us

1120
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 2: the deats?

1121
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so book will be out May thirtieth, so you

1122
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: can order Amazon anywhere books are sold, indie bookstores preferably,

1123
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: and you can follow me at steph Underscore outside on Instagram.

1124
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,959
Speaker 1: I will start posting more. I've taken a little breather

1125
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: as we know, and yeah, thank you so much, thank you.

1126
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 2: I'm over at Emlabody an at Hurdle podcast. Another Hurdle Conquered.

1127
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 2: Catch you guys next time.