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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones. Welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Hey, Hey, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well, it's going well. It is mid October

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Speaker 1: and we are in the Dawson household preparing for Halloween.

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Speaker 1: We actually have been preparing since about July, but this

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Speaker 1: is when I'm publicly willing to admit it that we

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Speaker 1: are getting ready for Halloween.

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Speaker 3: So you're big into Halloween, That's what I'm gathering.

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Speaker 1: We are big into Halloween. I have one kid. She

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Speaker 1: loves writing scary stories. Like she has this story about

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Speaker 1: a woman inside a house and she sees a killer

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Speaker 1: in the yard through the window, and the woman is

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Speaker 1: very tense, and then she realizes that he's not in

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Speaker 1: the yard. It's a reflection and he's actually behind her.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, oh, what a brilliant nine year old

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Speaker 1: several years ago. That's either great parenting or really poor parenting.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure which one it is.

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Speaker 3: So, but you're putting decorations up now?

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Speaker 1: Yes, we have one of those funkins. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: seen those? Do you have a Polholes funkin? They carve

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Speaker 1: really intricate things into a fake pumpkin.

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Speaker 3: No, I haven't seen that.

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Speaker 1: We have a Winkler Dawson funkin. That's a haunted house

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Speaker 1: scene and I love it. It's so much fun. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's up, and we've got lights everywhere, and we've already

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Speaker 1: carved two different pumpkins. So we're into it.

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Speaker 2: So are your decorations? Are they fun scary or are

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Speaker 2: they scary scary?

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Speaker 1: It's both, it's an excellent mix of both.

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Speaker 3: Really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have some body parts laying around. We so

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Speaker 1: have the reflections of ghosts and windows and we used

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Speaker 1: to have really big inflatables when the kids were young,

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Speaker 1: but they would jump on them and pop them and

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Speaker 1: then the dogs started biting them, and so we don't

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Speaker 1: do that. But I had been curious because your kids

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Speaker 1: are older than my kids, much older, right, do they

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Speaker 1: still do Halloween?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: You know, we throw up decorations around the house. The

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Speaker 2: kids have stopped trick or treating. They're both high schoolers

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Speaker 2: at this point. It was so eye opening coming out

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Speaker 2: of California and moving to Colorado.

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Speaker 3: Is that I believe two of the Halloweens there's been

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Speaker 3: snow on the ground.

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Speaker 1: What, Oh, that's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not.

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Speaker 2: Are we going to have a white Christmas or not?

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Speaker 2: Are we gonna have a white Halloween?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Colorado.

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Speaker 2: And your pumpkins are frozen solid? Oh yeah, and the

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Speaker 2: deer like to eat them, so you know, they're like

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Speaker 2: the ultimate Porsche pirate to where if you have your

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Speaker 2: pumpkins out, guarantee eventually you're gonna see a deer starting

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Speaker 2: to gnaw on your pumpkin. And sometimes these pumpkins get

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Speaker 2: taken away. I think the bear will come and grab

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Speaker 2: the pumpkins as well.

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Speaker 1: Oh your bear. I can't even believe you have bears

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Speaker 1: around where you are. You told me the story I

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Speaker 1: don't know if people know the story of your bear

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Speaker 1: and the dog and your wife.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, that's just part of really starting to

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Speaker 2: learn Colorado and recognizing, you know, there is danger around

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Speaker 2: every corner. And that's where Cora was out walking with

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Speaker 2: my wife and she was off leash and then she

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Speaker 2: just charged around out of sight, and when my wife

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Speaker 2: caught up, a bear was on top of Cora. And

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Speaker 2: my wife immediately turns around screaming bear, Bear, Bear to

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Speaker 2: the group she was with. And I think as she

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Speaker 2: was running away from Cora, Cora just instinctively ran with

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Speaker 2: my wife, So that probably saved Cora's life. But she

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Speaker 2: had a huge gash toward in the side on her ribcage.

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Speaker 2: The skin was just kind of hanging down. She had

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Speaker 2: been bitten on the tail and had probably a claw

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Speaker 2: mark on her forehead. So she was in surgery immediately

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Speaker 2: for that attack. And we have bears in our yard.

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Speaker 2: We know more frequently than we see them because they're

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Speaker 2: constantly moving around, and we've had to enclose you know,

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Speaker 2: Cora's where she goes potty is on the side of

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Speaker 2: the house and I've had to put up an enclosure

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Speaker 2: to prevent her from charging after bear. If she happens

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Speaker 2: to be out there going potty, she can be out

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Speaker 2: there with deer and bunny rabbits and turkeys and whatever

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Speaker 2: else comes.

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Speaker 3: Through the yard. She doesn't bother them, but she goes

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Speaker 3: after the bear.

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Speaker 1: Side Note, I love that you say potty.

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Speaker 2: I suppose so she goes through her side Your are

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Speaker 2: defecate and urinate?

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Speaker 3: How's that?

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Speaker 1: That's what I would think of, forensic science guy with.

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Speaker 3: You thought that's what I was going to say. But

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Speaker 3: I love that now she knows the term potty.

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Speaker 1: Come on, come on, well that's a very halloweeny story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how horrific to see. Your wife must have

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Speaker 1: been terrified, but thank goodness she got out of that.

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Speaker 1: You have a very sturdy yellow.

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Speaker 2: Lab, right, yes, But no matter how star you, ninety

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Speaker 2: pound dog doesn't stand a chance against a three hundred

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Speaker 2: fourhundred pound bare well.

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Speaker 1: She has gone through a lot, and so I certainly

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Speaker 1: don't recommend that you do to her what I plan

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Speaker 1: to do with my dog, which is make her look

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Speaker 1: like a fool and dress her up it's Halloween, because yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a snotty little attitude. Ruby does sometimes that I

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Speaker 1: just feel like putting her in like a porky pig

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Speaker 1: outfit or something. She can feel, she can feel a

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Speaker 1: little embarrassed.

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Speaker 3: We're going to have to see some pictures.

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Speaker 1: You got it, Okay, embarrassed Ruby. So this parlays into

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Speaker 1: a case that this not quite halloweeny, but I know

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Speaker 1: you love a good mystery, so this will be an

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Speaker 1: interesting case for you. It's a good little mystery. I guess.

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Speaker 1: Let's just get started. Let's just set the scene now.

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Speaker 1: So this case is called the Windmill Murder Case, and

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Speaker 1: this is set in December of nineteen twenty four, and

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Speaker 1: this is in California. So this nineteen twenty four California.

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Speaker 1: Is it's such an interesting time period because again you're

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Speaker 1: talking about the intersection of Prohibition. We're not at the

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Speaker 1: Great Depression yet, we're reaching the Roaring twenties. There's just

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Speaker 1: a lot happening, a lot of growth, a lot of culture.

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Speaker 1: But we are talking about rural California. Hanford, California. Have

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Speaker 1: you heard of Hanford? I had not.

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Speaker 3: That's south of Fresno, west of Ialia.

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Speaker 1: Okay, is that farm country? Kind of it must be.

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Speaker 3: That whole area is nothing but a bunch of farms.

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Speaker 1: Well, this story is about a rancher, kind of a

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Speaker 1: farmer rancher guy, and his name is Lee Camp and

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Speaker 1: he's thirty four years old. And when he was nine

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Speaker 1: years old, he was put in foster care and he

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Speaker 1: ended up with foster parents named mister and Missus Brown,

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Speaker 1: and they owned a ranch in Hanford. So Lee Camp

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Speaker 1: was nine at the time, and as he grew older,

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Speaker 1: he became closer and closer to the family. Obviously, this

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Speaker 1: was his sort of adoptive family, although it doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like they ever officially adopted him. But he was someone

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Speaker 1: who was really good at working with his hands. He

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Speaker 1: really enjoyed being on the ranch. But he had some

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Speaker 1: family that were not part of the foster family, sort

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Speaker 1: of his biological family who when the family members I

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Speaker 1: had left him a lot of money that was put

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Speaker 1: in a trust. He continued to be with the Browns because,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just was really committed with them. He

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Speaker 1: didn't spend a lot of his money that he had.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of in this trust and he continued

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Speaker 1: to work on this ranch off and on it. And

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Speaker 1: there is a whole cast of characters involved in this story,

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Speaker 1: but Lee Camp is really at the center of it,

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Speaker 1: and then later on we talked more about the extended family.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know a lot about windmills. Do you

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Speaker 1: know anything about windmills? I know more now than I

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Speaker 1: did before I started this story.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, my knowledge of windmills pretty much is

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Speaker 2: limited to the fact that they use wind in order

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Speaker 2: to mill grain, right, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, it's pretty obvious based on the name.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I used to call the you see

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Speaker 2: them all over the place, those hydro electric turbines.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: At one point, I think I made the mistake of

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Speaker 2: calling that a windmill when I was out on a tour,

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Speaker 2: and I was very sharply corrected, No, they are not windmills.

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Speaker 1: So this is the old school windmill, and this was

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Speaker 1: something that they used on this ranch. And what ends

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Speaker 1: up happening is Lee camp. His intention is to work

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Speaker 1: on this windmill, this one particular windmill, and there are

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Speaker 1: different parts to the windmills. So there is a tank

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Speaker 1: house that is attached to the windmill, and this is

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Speaker 1: where water is stored. So there's in the construction of

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Speaker 1: the windmill. There's a tank house and then the well

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Speaker 1: and then the actual windmill. So he has been tasked

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Speaker 1: with moving this windmill from his family ranch to someone else,

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Speaker 1: and so he's sort of trying to assess it and

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Speaker 1: figure out what shape is it in? Can they start

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Speaker 1: breaking it down to be able to move it? How

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Speaker 1: are we going to move it? And this would not

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Speaker 1: be out of his wheelhouse, so to speak, he would

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Speaker 1: know how to do this. So Lee asked his foster

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Speaker 1: mother's uncle, who was a guy named Johnny Tipton, to help,

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Speaker 1: and Johnny Tipton said, you know, I can probably help you,

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Speaker 1: but not right now. Why don't you get started without

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Speaker 1: me and I'll come down. But Lee Camp was really

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Speaker 1: anxious to get this job done. This was a Sunday,

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Speaker 1: not a lot of people were around, and Lee said,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and take care of this myself.

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Speaker 1: So then Tipton said, okay, well, let me get some

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Speaker 1: tools and then I will come and help you. I

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Speaker 1: don't want you doing this on your own. So Lee says, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go down early. So when they went to

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Speaker 1: the barn, they got some rope and Tipton said, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and take these tools and put them

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Speaker 1: somewhere else and I'll be right there. When he came back,

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Speaker 1: and this was within an hour or so. Johnny Tipton

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Speaker 1: was depositing these tools somewhere else. When he came back,

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Speaker 1: he found Lee lying on the ground. So the thirty

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Speaker 1: four year old rancher was lying on the ground at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the windmill, dead with a head wound,

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Speaker 1: blood everywhere. Okay, So once we get into this story,

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Speaker 1: the fact is what Johnny Tipton said is that he

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Speaker 1: shows up Lee Camp is on the ground. He never

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Speaker 1: saw him up on the windmill. He doesn't know what happened.

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Speaker 1: The last thing he knows is that his nephew is

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Speaker 1: just fine. And now this young man is dead at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the windmill.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So there must be some thought that he fell

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Speaker 2: off this windmill.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that was the original assumption. So Johnny Tipton says, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess he was on top of the roof and

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Speaker 1: he must have slipped off and fell. So when they

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Speaker 1: called the police, this is the same conclin illusion that

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Speaker 1: the police come to. They said. So it was about

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Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty minutes from the time that Lee Camp

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Speaker 1: left the barn and left his uncle till when Tipton

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Speaker 1: came back and discovered him dead, and Tipton said something

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Speaker 1: that was a little odd at first. He said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened. Lee seemed like he was

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Speaker 1: in good spirits.

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Speaker 2: So he's suggesting that Lee may have purposely thrown himself

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Speaker 2: off the windmill.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was a really odd statement to make. And

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Speaker 1: of course the family comes out, the Foster family, And

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Speaker 1: I know it's odd for me to continue to say

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Speaker 1: Foster family, but it's because we need to differentiate between them,

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Speaker 1: the Morounds who he grew up with since he was nine,

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Speaker 1: and then his biological family. A couple of them are

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Speaker 1: still in the picture. And this is where a lot

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Speaker 1: of this debate comes in, because this would not be

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Speaker 1: a case had it not been for Lee's biological family.

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Speaker 2: And remind me, Lee's set to receive an inheritance. He

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Speaker 2: has it, Oh, he already has it, so he has

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Speaker 2: a level of wealth at this point.

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Speaker 1: He does. And he also has a life insurance policy,

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Speaker 1: not a new one, but a life insurance policy nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: so he has some money. So there is at first

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Speaker 1: blush a reason to believe that perhaps this was not

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Speaker 1: an accident. But people knew that he was going to

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Speaker 1: be up on that tank house investigating the windmill. They

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Speaker 1: knew that there was a danger. You know, he didn't

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Speaker 1: have a history of slipping and falling, but he was

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Speaker 1: a young man. He was at one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: five pounds. He was in really good shape. So this

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Speaker 1: is not someone who didn't know how to climb up

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Speaker 1: on windmills. And so that was the assumption is that

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Speaker 1: he had slipped and fell, and the idea was that

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Speaker 1: there was a gash in the back of his head,

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Speaker 1: that he had hit the cog wheel, which I also

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Speaker 1: had a google at the bottom of the windmill. So

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Speaker 1: he slipped, he fell, He hit some things coming down

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Speaker 1: that sort of broke his fall, like some wires that

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Speaker 1: were attached to the windmill, and then ultimately the object

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Speaker 1: that kills him is this cog wheel, which you can

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Speaker 1: imagine is a metal wheel with a lot of what

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Speaker 1: divots what would you even call those cogs out of?

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Speaker 3: What? Would this be part of the gearing of the windmill? Right?

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Speaker 1: Correct?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there'd be teeth in these gears.

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Speaker 1: Correct, teeth, That's what I was thinking about. Teeth.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Now do we know how high he fell from?

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Speaker 1: We do. So this was a distance of about thirty

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Speaker 1: five feet, so I had to look that up. That

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Speaker 1: was more than three stories. That's pretty high.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Johnny Tipton says this weird thing. He was in

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Speaker 1: good spirits. We don't know if he's insinuating that Lee

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Speaker 1: Camp was potentially going to take his own life, but

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Speaker 1: it was a weird thing to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this happened on December fourteenth, nineteen twenty four, and

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Speaker 1: then they carried out the autopsy on the fifteenth. So

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Speaker 1: in autopsy in nineteen twenty four, I don't believe would

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Speaker 1: have been automatic. I think that if there were any

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Speaker 1: question of, you know, something be suspicious about a particular death,

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Speaker 1: they would have carried on an autopsy. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think that would have been normal if this truly looked

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Speaker 1: like an accident to people. I mean, what do you think, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, in this.

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Speaker 2: Day and age, if it is an accident that caused death,

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Speaker 2: then most certainly an autopsy would be performed. The coroner's

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Speaker 2: office would take jurisdiction and they have to make sure

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Speaker 2: that this was truly an accident versus death caused at

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Speaker 2: the hands of another.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that. So my first book

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Speaker 1: is about a deadly smog of nineteen fifty two in London,

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Speaker 1: and the cause of death on the death certificates was

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Speaker 1: very important. The British government in many cases were not

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Speaker 1: attributing these deaths that clearly were a result from a

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Speaker 1: deadly smog. They were attributing them to you know, bronchitis

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Speaker 1: which is probably what technically killed people, or cardiac arrests

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Speaker 1: from all of the coughing. But you know, they were

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Speaker 1: refusing to mark anything else on the death certificates. So ultimately,

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Speaker 1: when the information came back about how many people died

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Speaker 1: from this smog, it was far lower than it should

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Speaker 1: have been because they were not attributing the right cause

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Speaker 1: of death. So I think that's interesting to think about.

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Speaker 1: This case really does come down to how how do

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Speaker 1: you prove when someone has clearly died from I guess

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Speaker 1: blood force trauma, how do we prove whether it was

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Speaker 1: an accident or whether it was murder? And that's what

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Speaker 1: this comes.

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Speaker 2: Down to, well, and that's where so much rests on

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Speaker 2: proper crime scene processing and documentation, as well as competent autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let me get your opinion on this, because

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Speaker 1: I know nothing about falling Van goodness from high heights.

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Speaker 1: This is thirty four thirty five feet. There is obviously

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Speaker 1: evidence that he had a lot of trauma to his head,

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Speaker 1: a compound fracture at the back of his skull, no

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Speaker 1: broken bones anywhere else from a height like that, would

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Speaker 1: you expect any kind of a broken bone other than

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Speaker 1: if he hit his head on the wheel of the windmill.

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Speaker 2: Well, when somebody falls and impacts, let's say it's an

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Speaker 2: uninterrupted fall, and so now the individual is impacting the

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Speaker 2: ground and you have in essence instantaneous deceleration. So all

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Speaker 2: of that velocity or that energy from the fall is

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Speaker 2: now transferring into that body and the ground you unless

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Speaker 2: you're on sand or some soft surface that you land on,

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Speaker 2: the ground doesn't give so all that speed, that energy

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Speaker 2: is now transferred into your body, and so you typically

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Speaker 2: do see significant blunt force trauma. Now it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: mean that you will always see broken bones, but if

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Speaker 2: it is from a sufficient height, you will see the

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Speaker 2: actual impact aspect of you know, the side of the

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Speaker 2: body that is impacting the ground. That is what you know,

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Speaker 2: i'd call the primary collision two objects that have.

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Speaker 3: Basically collided into each other.

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Speaker 2: The body in the ground, but internally there's secondary collisions,

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Speaker 2: and so now the organs. For example, the heart is

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Speaker 2: literally just kind of hanging in the center of your chest,

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Speaker 2: and when you stop immediately with all that energy, your

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Speaker 2: heart wont to kind of keep going, but your body

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Speaker 2: is stopped. And you see this often in vehicular accidents

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Speaker 2: where let's say it's a head on accident, or you

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Speaker 2: run into a telephone pole. The car stops, the seat

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Speaker 2: belt prevents your body from moving forward, but your heart,

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Speaker 2: being this heavy mass, keeps going and until the soft

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Speaker 2: tissues that hold it in place are able to basically

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Speaker 2: stop it from moving forward. But oftentimes in significant crashes,

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Speaker 2: those soft tissues are torn away just because the heart

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Speaker 2: keeps going. And what gets torn is the aorta. So

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Speaker 2: even though you could have somebody in a crash or

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Speaker 2: somebody from a fall that looks okay internally, they have

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Speaker 2: almost instantaneously bled out due to this secondary collision that

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Speaker 2: has occurred these forces inside the body. So in evaluating

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Speaker 2: Lee Camp's body, first, it's okay, what is the height,

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Speaker 2: what's the terminal velocity, how does he land? Is that

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Speaker 2: consistent with injuries that are being seen? And then what

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Speaker 2: are the intervening objects, and he brought up the cog wheel.

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Speaker 2: He only has injuries to his head. This cogwheel, I

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Speaker 2: imagine is towards the bottom of this windmill, so he's

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Speaker 2: got a high rate of speed in which now his

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Speaker 2: skull is impacting a stone surface. This has the potential

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Speaker 2: to produce massive skull damage. I mean to the point

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Speaker 2: to where, in essence, could see the head crushed, you

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Speaker 2: could see decapitation. It all just depends on the surfaces

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Speaker 2: and the speed.

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Speaker 3: And everything else.

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Speaker 2: But this is part of assessing his injuries related to

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Speaker 2: what he could have impacted during this fall. I am

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Speaker 2: a little bit concerned just off the top that he

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Speaker 2: only has injuries to a skull. They're not saying that

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Speaker 2: there's any other injuries to the rest of his body, So.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about this. Is now something that they have

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Speaker 1: a corner's inquest, which has always been a big mystery

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Speaker 1: to me. So this happens very quickly after he's discovered.

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Speaker 1: There's a corner's inquest in which the corner calls in

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Speaker 1: four witnesses, including Uncle Tipton and other medical experts. So

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Speaker 1: what is the point of a coroner's inquest?

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Speaker 2: Well, typically and I've testified at corner's inquests, and typically

379
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Speaker 2: the corner is tasked with establishing the manner of death.

380
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Speaker 2: So the pathologist who does the autopsy has the medical expertise,

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Speaker 2: establishes the cause of death. Then the corner, which in

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00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 2: many instances is an elected official, and I would imagine,

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Speaker 2: you know, back in the time of this case, was

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Speaker 2: likely an elected official. The corner then issues a death

385
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Speaker 2: certificate indicating that the.

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Speaker 3: Manner of death.

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Speaker 2: But let's say the pathologist is going, well, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I've got in this case a body that has blunt

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Speaker 2: force trauma.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I can't differentiate whether this was from an accident or

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Speaker 2: whether somebody did this to him. So the corner will

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Speaker 2: then convene an inquest, which witnesses are called in and

394
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Speaker 2: a jury may be seated. And then now the coroner's

395
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: office puts information out in front of this jury, or

396
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Speaker 2: sometimes it will just be a judge, and they weigh

397
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Speaker 2: in based on the circumstances. We believe that the manner

398
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Speaker 2: of death was accident or natural or at the hands

399
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 2: of another. So, in essence, in some ways, it's the

400
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,720
Speaker 2: coroner's office punting. They put it out to a judge

401
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 2: and or jury to independently assess the information and then

402
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: draw a conclusion as to what the manner of death was.

403
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's what they did. They called four witnesses,

404
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 1: including Uncle Tipton. It was before a jury, and after

405
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Speaker 1: listening to the evidence and listening to what the autopsy was,

406
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Speaker 1: which was again the damage to the cranium, then they

407
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: said that they returned an open verdict and it read

408
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 1: death from the blow of the back of the head

409
00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: made by some blunt instrument, presumably through a fall. Case closed. Huh,

410
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:00,439
Speaker 1: that was that?

411
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 3: Okay?

412
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: Of course, we know we're not even halfway through this episode,

413
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: so it wasn't case. That's what came of the coroner's

414
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: in quest. But I'm assuming that can be changed at

415
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 1: any point, is that right.

416
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: Well, if new information comes in, but then it's incumbent

417
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Speaker 2: upon the corner to weigh that new information and then

418
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Speaker 2: possibly reissue a death certificate with a change in the

419
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Speaker 2: manner of death.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but this isn't a trial, This is just a

421
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: determination of a cause of death. Yes, okay, so everything

422
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: seems okay. Christmas is approaching. The Browns, the Foster family

423
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: are mourning Lee Camp, and then the newspaper reporters come

424
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,960
Speaker 1: knocking at their door because Lee Camp's biological sister a

425
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 1: woman named Pearl Camp King. So I'm just going to

426
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Speaker 1: call her Pearl King. Pearl King is going to the

427
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: newspapers and saying something's wrong here. And what's wrong is

428
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Speaker 1: that Lee Camp had a lot of money and he

429
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 1: left it all to his foster mother, Missus Brown, and

430
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: five dollars to his biological sister.

431
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: Of course she's saying something's wrong here, right.

432
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Speaker 1: Right, right, So this is enough of a big question

433
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 1: mark for the newspapers to start kicking up some dust

434
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: and start wanting to know why was this corners in

435
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: quest open and shut? Why was this buried? It sounds

436
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,400
Speaker 1: like there's something fishy happening. Why would he not leave

437
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 1: his sister more money? Why would he leave this foster

438
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,439
Speaker 1: mother all this money? And thus started an investigation with

439
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: the intent of trying to figure out if the Browns

440
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: actually murdered this young man or whether or not it

441
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: was truly an accident.

442
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 2: Right, and it was there any information dug up as

443
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: to what the relationship between Lee and Pearl King was

444
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: like prior to his death.

445
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: Well, it was interesting. She said, it was a really nice,

446
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: good relationship. It sounded like they were estranged, okay, and

447
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 1: that they had a difficult relationship, but still it was

448
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: a little surprising that he hadn't left her anything. She

449
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: Pearl King began to question some of the things in

450
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: his relationship for missus Brown. She thought that Genie Laura Brown,

451
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: the woman he had been with since he was nine,

452
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: she said. The sister said that they had an abnormal relationship,

453
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: that the mother was very, very manipulative, and that it

454
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: just didn't make sense for her to be left in

455
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: total control of his estate, which was pretty sizable. It

456
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: was two hundred thousand dollars in life insurance only, and

457
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,719
Speaker 1: then there was an additional one hundred and thirty thousand dollars.

458
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 1: So two hundred thousand dollars right now is three point

459
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: three million.

460
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: That's a significant life insurance policy.

461
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: Huge amount of life insurance. And we'll talk about the

462
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: life insurance in a little bit. So Pearl Camp King,

463
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: who was his biological sister, asked for his body to

464
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: be exhumed, and so they did it. And this is

465
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: where we have dueling experts, because we see my forensic

466
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: scientist again Oscar Heinrich, who is called in to work

467
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 1: for the district attorney who's trying to build a potential

468
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: case against the Browns, because now all of a sudden,

469
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: we're set, say, all of this money is going to

470
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: this one woman, and his sister is calling into question

471
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: how manipulative this woman is. And this doesn't seem like

472
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: a simple slip and fall off of a windmill.

473
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: No, So they exhume Lee Camp's body. How long after

474
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 2: the death was his body.

475
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: Exhumed less than two months later?

476
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 3: Okay, do you know if he was embalmed? You know

477
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 3: what to state of his body.

478
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: Was so embalming in nineteen twenty five, I think embalming

479
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: would not have been very common in nineteen twenty five,

480
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: so it would have been pretty well degraded. But I

481
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: haven't found photographs either of the autopsies, so I don't know.

482
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then that's just part of what I'm trying

483
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: to assess. This is what the second pathologist was working with.

484
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: This was a body that had already been autopsy so

485
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: there's been you know, some disruption, yeah, from that original autopsy,

486
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 2: and then now a body that's been in the ground

487
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: for roughly two months bodies can made rapidly in certain circumstances,

488
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: and sometimes bodies underground inside a coffin can remain relatively fresh.

489
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: So you know, that would be.

490
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: One of the questions that I would have in terms of, Okay,

491
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: what is this pathologist working with once once lee camp

492
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: comes up out of the ground.

493
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: Well, and so embalming, because I'm reading that it would

494
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: have been around they might have involved, and we don't

495
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: know what would that have done. Would that have preserved

496
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: a lot of these injuries so that they were in

497
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: their original state?

498
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: Well, the embalming process helps preserve the soft tissue because

499
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 2: the embalming in essence by removing the blood and replacing

500
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: it with you know, formaldehyde containing chemicals, and different embalmers

501
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: use different formulations, but generally there's two three different compounds

502
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:47,479
Speaker 2: I think dominated by formaldehyde, which in essence prevents the

503
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: microorganisms from proliferating. And microorganisms are the number one aspect

504
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 2: of decomposition. You know, your intestines are just completely full

505
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 2: of bacteria, and then once you die, there's nothing that

506
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: keeps that bacteria in check, and so in essence, you

507
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: start to rot on the inside, working from the inside out.

508
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: But also from the outside end, and the embalming process

509
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: slows or completely stops that process. So now you can

510
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: have soft tissue preservation, and that could preserve if you

511
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: do have multiple wounds, like the wounds to Lee Camp's head,

512
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: they're not being degraded or eaten away, so to speak,

513
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 2: during this time, and so now the pathologist may see

514
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 2: wounds that are at least representative of what we're present

515
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: at the time of death.

516
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: So let's step away from forensics and go back to

517
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: the basic narrative of what people are saying back and forth.

518
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: So you have Pearl King, who is saying that there

519
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: was this really odd relationship between the foster mother and

520
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: Missus Brown and between Lee Camp, that she was trying

521
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: to draw him away from family, and she did not

522
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: want him to date young women. Even though he was

523
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 1: dating a woman he wanted to become engaged too, And

524
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: that becomes part of this controversy. The sister claimed that

525
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: Missus Brown had been telling women that the quote is

526
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: that he was suffering from a noxious disease. I wonder

527
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: if that is a sexually transmitted disease that she's insinuating

528
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: that he had noxious disease. I'm not thinking it's the

529
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: flu I think probably she was trying to say that

530
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: this was not somebody you would want to date. And

531
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: Pearl King really worked hard to try to discredit the

532
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: Browns at every road they possibly could. So the Browns,

533
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: for their part, said, we have not done anything. Yes,

534
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: he had a life insurance policy, but if you read

535
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: that life insurance policy closely, we and he had the

536
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: option to have a double indemnity clause for an accident

537
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: where it would have doubled. We told him you don't

538
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: need that, you're not going to get into an accident

539
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: or anything like that. Don't you think if we had

540
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: planned to kill this kid, that we would have put

541
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: in there, insisted on this double indemnity clause for an accident.

542
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: Do you think that's a good argument on the side

543
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: that this is an accident, we weren't planning to kill him. No, okay,

544
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: because three point three is a now three four to

545
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 1: three billion would be a up person one today.

546
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 3: Yeah.

547
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: You know, here you have families that are disputing a

548
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: will and they're going to be firing missiles at each other.

549
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: But you still have to go to the core of

550
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: the case. And the core of the case is what

551
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: happened to Lee Camp and what does his body say

552
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 2: happen to him?

553
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get into the autopsy that I sent you.

554
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: So we have now dueling experts. We have one expert

555
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: who looked at Lee Camp's wound and said it fits

556
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: perfectly with the teeth marks on the cog wheel that

557
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: we believe was the blunt object that ultimately killed him

558
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: because he fell off of this roof of this tank house.

559
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: And then the other autopsy results. Tell me what your

560
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: interpretation was of what I sent, which was I think

561
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: the prosecutor who ultimately went forward with a murder case

562
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: against four members of this family and that's why he

563
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: was exhumed. They looked at this evidence, They talked to

564
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: an expert, They listened to the sister who said this

565
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: was for money. They killed my brother, and they charged

566
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: four people, including missus Brown and Uncle Tipton, with murder

567
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: secondary murder.

568
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I have to read out loud what this

569
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: is saying, because it is that significant. In all, twenty

570
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 2: wounds have been found in the area from the base

571
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 2: of the right ear to the corona of the skull

572
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: and to about midway to the base of the left ear.

573
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,479
Speaker 2: The skin and soft tissue were badly mutilated. The wounds

574
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: in every case but two did not puncture to the skull.

575
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: In two cases, one a crescent shaped wound four inches

576
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: in length penetrated to and through the skull. This wound

577
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: was situated at the highest point of the wounded area

578
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: and contained within its limits a small triangular piece of bone.

579
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: To the left of the wounded area, and about three

580
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: inches below this large crescent shaped wound, there was one

581
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: other wound about one and one quarter inches long, which penetrated.

582
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: To the skull but not through it. What does that

583
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: mean twenty wounds.

584
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: Now, imagine Lee Camp's bodies falling and his head impacts

585
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: this cogwheel. Okay, this is a massive blow. I would

586
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: expect that. Of course, you're going to get tearing of

587
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: the skin. You're also going to get the potential of

588
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: this skull where the teeth or whatever are pushing in

589
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: the skull into the brain. Based on you know, falling

590
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: from thirty five feet Here there's twenty wounds that are

591
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: found from the right ear to the corona the skull

592
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: and about midway to the base of the left ear.

593
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: Twenty wounds does not sound like a singular instance of

594
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: an impact with the ground or the hog wheel. This

595
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: is where Okay, what else did the body possibly impact

596
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: on the way down? But would it all be concentrated

597
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: to this area of the skull? Start talking. Crescent shaped

598
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 2: wound four inches in length and it penetrates through the skull,

599
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: So there's only two areas that go through this skull. This,

600
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: based on just text without seeing photographs, sounds much more

601
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: consistent with a bludgeoning with a blunt object that was

602
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: focused on his skull versus a massive object that his

603
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: head is impacting with great energy. So at this point

604
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: I'm going, Okay, that sounds suspicious. I'm not in line

605
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: with accident based on that, they end up X raying

606
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: the rest of his body and no broken bones with

607
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: the exception of the skull. Now if he is conscious.

608
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: What we typically see and falls is that when somebody

609
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: falls and then hits the ground, their hands are out,

610
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: their legs are impacting the ground. If they're falling backwards,

611
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: you know their arms are back. Often do see forearms

612
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: being snapped, lower legs being snapped, femurs being driven up

613
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: up into the upper torso from a fall. At least

614
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: there isn't the obvious indicators that he was conscious trying

615
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: to brace himself for the impact. So the way that

616
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: is worded, and again without photographs, but the way that

617
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: is worded, I am going hmm, that is sounding more

618
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: consistent with homicide.

619
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because they're accusing Johnny Tipton, the uncle,

620
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: since he was the one there and admitted to being there,

621
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: with being the killer the person who beat him to death,

622
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: and then the other three, including his adoptive mother, as accessories. Right,

623
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: second degree murder. What does that charge tell you about

624
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: what the prosecutor thought of his case? Why would he

625
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: not have thought this was premeditated?

626
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: He's charging Tipton with second degree all four.

627
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: Of them with second degree murder. So Timpton and a

628
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: ranch hand, it's like a conspiracy. The adoptive mother, the uncle,

629
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: her son, her natural son, and then a ranch hand.

630
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: All four of them conspired to kill this kid.

631
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: Okay, well, you know what it tells me is that

632
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: the prosecutor is evaluating the case and isn't able to

633
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: establish the And this is California, and first degree murder

634
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: does require malice, a forethought, that premeditation. And then there's

635
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: other circumstances. You know, during the commission of a robbery

636
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: sexual assault, that also is added which could lead to

637
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: special circumstances. But that premeditation is what's critical. And so

638
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: during the investigation, the prosecutor was not confident that he'd

639
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: be able to convince a jury that there was sufficient

640
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: premeditation to be proven for first degree, so he lowered

641
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: the bar in order to be able to secure a

642
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: murder charge.

643
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 3: That is what my guess is.

644
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: Well, i'll tell you. Oscar Heinrich is my forensic scientist

645
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: from American Sherlock is on the case, and he was

646
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: initially this happened to him sometimes. He was initially hired

647
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: by the prosecutor and then he switched over to the

648
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: defensive side when he started gathering evidence. So this is

649
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: we'll see what you evaluate of Heinrich's evidence. Okay, So

650
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: he climbed up on the roof and he looked and

651
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: he saw scuff marks as if somebody had been standing

652
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: on the section of the roof precisely above or around

653
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: the appropriate area where if somebody had been up there

654
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: and he slipped and fell, that he would have landed

655
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: where Lee Camp was found. So Oscar is saying somebody

656
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: was in the precise spot that he needed to be

657
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: in order to be found on the ground where Lee

658
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: Camp was found, and there was dirt and dust and

659
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 1: everything else you can think of on the roof except

660
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: for this one spot where there were scuff marks from

661
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: a shoe. So he's putting that in the accident column.

662
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Just as a piece

663
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: of circumstantial evidence, it's.

664
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: Most early, is noteworthy, you know, in terms of a

665
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: disturbance to the roof that appears to be recent and

666
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: is consistent with where Lee Camp would have been. Of

667
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: course would want to know is this something that could

668
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: have been staged.

669
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: Or like fingerprints, I mean, it could have been who

670
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: knows when those happened.

671
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: That's part of Okay, what exactly are these scuff marks?

672
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 3: What are they made out of? What's the location?

673
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: You know, how rapidly would they degrade within the environmental conditions?

674
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 2: Is it something that is distinctive enough to be able

675
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: to match up with anything like Lee's shoes? Is this

676
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: something we're tempted who's conveniently put himself away from the

677
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 2: scene at the time Lee Camp reportedly falls legedly falls,

678
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: You know, is this something that Tipton could have created

679
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: just to help put two and two together. You know,

680
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: where somebody looks at the roof and goes, oh, hey, look,

681
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: you know, there's a disturbance to the roof and there's

682
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: Lee's body. This is where I have to rely on

683
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: Heinrich and his observations. I questioned this as to whether

684
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: it's legitimate evidence right with the information provided.

685
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree that alone, I think was sort of

686
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 1: very circumstantial light evidence, but it was an interesting thing

687
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: to note. Yes, that he went up there and he

688
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: saw that there seemed to be evidence that somebody at

689
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: some point had been on that roof. So if we're

690
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: trying to paint this picture, Heinrich found that the wires

691
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 1: connecting between the tank house and the windmill, right where

692
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: the cog wheel was, there were metal wires running along

693
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: that side, that they were significantly loosened. So his theory

694
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: was that they were loosened because Lee Camp's body fell

695
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: and they sort of broke the fall. But it wasn't significant.

696
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: These wires weren't significant. They didn't cut his skin where

697
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 1: you could actually see the evidence of these wires, but

698
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: that they had braced his fall to a certain extent

699
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: and maybe they were responsible for some of the abrasions

700
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 1: that were on his head.

701
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 3: Oh no, that I don't buy at all.

702
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: Okay, so you know, so I'm going to call these

703
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: like guide wires that are helping, you know, support aspects

704
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: of the structure of this windmill. These are going to

705
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: have some tensile strength to them.

706
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 3: And if somebody's.

707
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: Falling, I mean, you rapidly gained speed in free fall,

708
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 2: and even if you're going, let's say, across fishing wire,

709
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: you're likely going to see some level of abrasion of

710
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: that wire on somebody's skin, let alone a guide wire

711
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: that is probably made out of metal. And if Lee

712
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: Camp's body is impacting these enough to where they're being loosened,

713
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: then I would think there would be some linear abrasions

714
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: as he's falling and hitting these wires along his entire

715
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: body at various points. Whatever part of his body contacts

716
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: these wires, it's not all just going to be concentrated

717
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: in the back of his head. I don't like that

718
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: scenario to account for his injuries to his scalp and

719
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: skull and the lack of injuries on the rest of

720
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: his body. If he's falling and hitting and tumbling as

721
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: he's going from.

722
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 3: Guidewire to guidewire, the impacts the ground.

723
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: In the cogwheel, I think there's going to be greater

724
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 2: distribution of injuries as well as more significant injuries than

725
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: what the autopsy is saying.

726
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you sort of shorthand what happens.

727
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: And then there's more evidence.

728
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: Right, of course there is.

729
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: That's how we roll here on Bury Bones. We always

730
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: have more evidence. So the jury hears this in the

731
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: second degree murder trial of all four people, and they

732
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: convict him. So all four people are convicted second degree murder.

733
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: There is an appeal and a conviction gets thrown out

734
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: on a technicality having to do with whether Heinrich was

735
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: able to testify or not able to testify. And there

736
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: is a retrial secondgree murder of people. And in this

737
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: re trial there are more things that are coming up.

738
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: There is another doctor who looked at and I had

739
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: mentioned this earlier, who looked at the wounds and said,

740
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: everybody's wrong. This fits perfectly with the cog wheel. It's

741
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: all kind of in one line. It makes sense. And

742
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: what Heinrich is saying, he says, I agree, and he

743
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: said number one, Lee Camp was very fit, Johnny Tipton

744
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: was not. And if Lee Camp had been hit on

745
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: the back of the head as many times as they claim,

746
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 1: there would have been other things, defensive wounds. Johnny Tipton

747
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: would have not gotten out of this unscathed because he

748
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: was quite a bit older, and Lee Camp was very

749
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: fit and very young, and all of the blood seemed

750
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: to be concentrated right at that cog wheel underneath his head.

751
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: And I think the argument for the defense in this

752
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: case was when you are beating someone, they are moving

753
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: around all over the place, and it is highly unlikely

754
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: that we would have had this blood come out in

755
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: just one second. There would have been cast off in

756
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: different places, and we would have seen sort of a

757
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: bigger scene. So that was for Heinrich check mark in

758
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: the accident column. Now, I'm going to preface this by

759
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: saying that this was a man. I've said this before.

760
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: I've read two thousand of his letters. He never apologizes

761
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: for any case. He never second guesses himself. That's a

762
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: pretty big problem, I think for a forensic scientist to

763
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: not be willing to say I've probably made a mistake.

764
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: I've written a book about him. I love Oscar Heinrich

765
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: as someone I researched. I don't think he was always right. Sure,

766
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: I think he made mistakes. Of course, we're human. So

767
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: when I present you with an Oscar Heinrich case, and

768
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: you're going to hear several of them, because I have

769
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: a lot that didn't end up in my book. This

770
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: is one of them. I certainly don't want you to

771
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: side with him unless you think that he's right, because

772
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 1: I think he was wrong for a certain number of cases.

773
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: Of course he was wrong. You can't work on two

774
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: to three thousand cases in your lifetime and not have

775
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 1: made some pretty significant mistakes. He lands with this as

776
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: an accident for sure.

777
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think the blood patterns or lack of blood

778
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 2: patterns is noteworthy under the theory, with twenty wounds that

779
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: are found concentrated in this area once a bleeding injury occurs,

780
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: and again the distribution of the wounds is important. But

781
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 2: when you have an object that is delivering a blow

782
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 2: to now a pooled blood source, it does produce spatter. Now,

783
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 2: the amount of spatter it can produce is dependent upon

784
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: the weapon and the amount of blood and how much

785
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: hair is present. Or intervening clothing. So that's all part

786
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: of the assessment. But as an example, a hammer produces

787
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: very different spatter patterns than a baseball bat, way different

788
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 2: levels of energy. And I've got a case where I

789
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: had a likely a bat used and spatter is everywhere

790
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 2: and there's cast off. But also a smaller tool can

791
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: deliver multiple blows concentrated to the head. Again, have to

792
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: consider the hair mass and everything else, and the amount

793
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: of spatter is not necessarily going to be what you

794
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: see with a massive weapon like a bat. This is

795
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: where I'm questioning the conclusion because yes, always take into

796
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 2: account the physical aspects of the offender and the victim,

797
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 2: and that's something that needs to be looked at. But

798
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: you also have the possibility of a singular blow that

799
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 2: causes a crushing wound to the base of Lee Camp's skull.

800
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter what his physical capability is at that point.

801
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: If he goes down, then multiple blows can be delivered

802
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: because he's been incapacitated very early on when the violence started.

803
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: This is now I want to see photos. I want

804
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: to see, you know, of course, the crime scene photos

805
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: where the blood pool is the cog wheel, you know,

806
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: the documentation of the wounds, so I can start to

807
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: assess can I sequence aspects of this case? Can I

808
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: account for a lack of spatter if I believe I've

809
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: got multiple blows being inflicted in an area which bleeding

810
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: is going to occur pretty early on once the scalp

811
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: is lacerated. This though, the blood pattern observations by Heinrich

812
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: are noteworthy, but I am still concerned about the twenty

813
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: wounds focused on just one area of the body that

814
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: allegedly fell thirty five feet onto the ground.

815
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: And I think what's difficult about this case is, you know,

816
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: we do talk about dueling experts and how they can

817
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: confuse a jury when you've got people who say they

818
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,320
Speaker 1: have the same credentials and they're saying opposite things, and

819
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: as somebody who's on a jury, and in nineteen twenty

820
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: five when this went to trial, you know, you're talking

821
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: about people who might not have gone all the way

822
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: through high school, and you have these experts in white

823
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 1: coats talking about some pretty extensive wounds, and I think

824
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: it could be difficult to interpret who's right and who

825
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: is wrong. And I think that's one of the problems

826
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: that we have in this case is You've got people

827
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: on both sides saying I'm right, and as a juror,

828
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: how do you decide who is right?

829
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 2: This is just fairly standard in our adversarial justice process.

830
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: I have been on one side of dueling experts in

831
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: the course of my career. Many times I've testified for

832
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: both prosecution and defense, and the other side is bringing

833
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: somebody else in that is refuting my conclusions. This now

834
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 2: comes down to being able to substantiate my opinions based

835
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: on the facts of the case. It's not just this

836
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 2: is my expertise. Trust what I'm saying and you wink

837
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: at the jury. I have to explain to the jury

838
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: and I typically in a case like this, I'm using

839
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 2: imagery and I'm pointing out this is why I.

840
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 3: Am able to conclude what I am concluding.

841
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: I need to be able to articulate those facts, and

842
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 2: oftentimes you see experts that aren't able to fundamentally articulate

843
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 2: their opinion.

844
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm the expert, leave me. That's a problem.

845
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that in this case, we have

846
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: multiple juries that just didn't know how to choose. Essentially, ultimately,

847
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: in this second trial, because the first one, the verdict

848
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: was thrown out. In the second trial, they listened to

849
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: all this evidence, and I think that Pearl King, his

850
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: sister was framed as someone who was vengeful because she

851
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: didn't get any money. She was accusing the family of

852
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: trying to poison her with mercury and slipping needles in

853
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: her food, and you know all kinds of stuff, which

854
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I both work in crime. None

855
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: of that surprises me. Of course that could happen, It

856
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: could absolutely happen. Sure, but all of this really started

857
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: because she came forward and said, this doesn't seem right.

858
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: I should have been given more money. Most of the

859
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: people close to Lee Camp said he didn't have a

860
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: very good relationship with his sister, and nobody was surprised

861
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: by that. But overall, the jury listened to the evidence.

862
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: They listened to Heinrich, They had conflicting experts telling them

863
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: different things about the medical evidence, and in my opinion,

864
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: they did the right thing, which is they voted not

865
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: guilty because there just was not enough certainty. And my

866
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: father used to tell me he was a law professor

867
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: at the University of Texas, and he used to say, listen,

868
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: when you feel like somebody is guilty, you have to

869
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: be able to prove it, and if you can't prove it,

870
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: that's the way our justice system works. And it's better

871
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: to have people go free who are guilty, as horrible

872
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: as that sounds, than one innocent person in prison, and

873
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 1: we know that there are many innocent people in prison.

874
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: So ultimately, do I think they killed this guy, this

875
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: thirty four year old, I don't know. Maybe I think

876
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: there's a great chance people kill for far less than

877
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: three point three million dollars, But was there enough evidence?

878
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: I don't think so, I mean, what do you think?

879
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 2: Well, that's where it's critical to evaluate, well, what testimony

880
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 2: was provided, right, Because it's one thing to say, yes,

881
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 2: the injuries are more consistent with homicide, so okay, have

882
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: a cause of death of homicide, manner of death as homicide,

883
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: and then it's well, there's motive because of the financial aspect.

884
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 2: But you still have to make a case that somebody

885
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: committed the crime. And so that's where it's like, Okay,

886
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: what case did they make? Yeah, because they charged four

887
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: individuals with second degree murder, there must be other circumstantial

888
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: aspects or witnesses or other things that would have been

889
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: presented in front of this jury. If they didn't have

890
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: that kind of case to put forward, then they jumped

891
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: the gun. It was too early to take these people.

892
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was too early.

893
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: So sometimes that does happen, and now if you get

894
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 2: an acquittal, you're done. And that's where prosecutors have a

895
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: tendency to be conservative. If they have an investigator present

896
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 2: a case to them and they're going, well, I think

897
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 2: you're on the right track. I think you got the

898
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: right person, but I'm not willing to move forward with

899
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,760
Speaker 2: charging because I don't think I can convince twelve.

900
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: People that you're right. You need to do more work.

901
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: That's part of the frustration and the tug of war

902
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: that happens between investigating agencies and the DA's office. Is

903
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 2: investigating agency is like, we got the guy, we want

904
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: him off the street, and the prosecutors are going, Nope,

905
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: you don't have enough for us to be able to

906
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 2: take this to trial. And then sometimes they're able to

907
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: get more evidence or information to convince the prosecutor. Sometimes

908
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: you're not, and then that person stays out and is free.

909
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: And in some ways it is part of the checks

910
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: and balances of the justice process.

911
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: I mean, my concern is that they had a coroner's

912
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: inquest the first go round, when the body was fresh,

913
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: when the wounds were there. They had experts they testified,

914
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: including the uncle Johnny Tipton. The jury said, yeah, he

915
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: died from a blunt object, but it's likely from a fall.

916
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what changed between that month, aside from

917
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: Pearl King saying I should have gotten more money. That

918
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 1: family's crazy, something's wrong, dig up his body and now

919
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 1: you've got all of these experts to confuse people. I

920
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: think that there was a lot of public pressure that

921
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: they thought this ranching family was trying to steal this

922
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: money and they killed this young man, and Pearl King

923
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: started all these rumors. And I think that you have

924
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: a prosecutor who just went, WHOA, this is a great motive.

925
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I don't know.

926
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: There absolutely is sad Pearl King is inserting motive into

927
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: why Tipton and the Browns need to be looked at.

928
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: I just I go back to this. It's a second autopsy,

929
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: but I go back to it and the way that

930
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 2: it reads, That's where I'm going. I have concerns of

931
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 2: how these injuries could have occurred based on the circumstances

932
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: of the fall, and I.

933
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 3: Want to know more.

934
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: But right now, if I were working with this information

935
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 2: early on in the case, I'm pursuing this as a

936
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: homicide investigation until it's proven.

937
00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 1: Otherwise it will just never happened. That I'm going to

938
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: bring you some cut and dry she lying up on me.

939
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: If I bring you a cut and dry case, I

940
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: think was.

941
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: A Professor plumb in the green room or something like

942
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: that with the candlestick.

943
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: I like a mystery, otherwise we'd have an eight minute

944
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: long episode. I like a good mystery, and this was

945
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: a mystery. And this is the kind of case where

946
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: you have a young man who seemed to have all

947
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: the good intentions in life and then he died, and

948
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: no matter how it was, it was tragic at thirty four.

949
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: But I think that the fighting over money is just

950
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: This is one of those things I told you, Paul,

951
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: that when I study crime from the seventeen hundreds, I'm

952
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: looking at a seventeen sixty case now and actually bringing

953
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: you one from the sixteen hundreds in a month or two.

954
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 3: Wow.

955
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: When you look at these cases, the themes don't go away,

956
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,879
Speaker 1: and they don't change significantly. And this is money. It's

957
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: a theme here that we have. It's greed, and I

958
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: don't know greed from who, whether it's Pearl King or

959
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: or whether it's the Browns. But that money motivated something,

960
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: either somebody to lie or somebody to kill, and we

961
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: don't know, right, And.

962
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 3: It's one of the most common motives for crime as greed.

963
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: And we'll come back to it at some point, I promise.

964
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure, probably over and over again.

965
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: Right, I think you need to go get a pumpkin

966
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: and do the deer in your neighborhood a favor. Carve

967
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: yourself up something nice and tell me how many days

968
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: it takes for someone to steal that pumpkin off your porch.

969
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 3: It won't be someone, it'll be an animal.

970
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: Bamby. We're hopefully not a bear. Right, Okay, so I'll

971
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: see you very very soon.

972
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 3: Sounds great, Thanks Kate.

973
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

974
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

975
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

976
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

977
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: Research by Mari Clashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

978
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer, is Ryo Baum.

979
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

980
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

981
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

982
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

983
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: Buried Bones.

984
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

985
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race and Decode

986
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: the Criminal Mind, is available for pre order now

987
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

988
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,479
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now