1 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio It's Funny. On Monday, I talked about bystanderism and 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: how I think it's among our really biggest cultural problems. 4 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: People stand by and don't do anything when something bad 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: is happening. Worse, they now stand around and film it. 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: And the example I gave was San Antonio Mayer. His 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: security guy was attacked while he was on camera. A 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: bunch of men stood around, didn't do anything. Again, they 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: called the police, but like they all could have taken 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: down the crazy guy, and they didn't do anything. They 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: just stood around and looked at it. I was thinking 12 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: about this and on Tuesday morning at UNC Chapel Hill, 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: these you know, pro Hamas protesters replace the American flag 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: with a Palestinian one on campus. I mean, it goes 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: without saying that I find this absolutely disgusting. It doesn't 16 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: matter how you feel about the Israel Palestinian conflict, it's 17 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: not about that. Replacing our country's flag with any other 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: flag is just sickening and worse. The American flag had 19 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: actually been flying at half mast because four Charlotte officers 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: who were killed in the line of duty. The day before, 21 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: so it was just extra extra gross to me. So 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: the Chancellor of UNC actually did the right thing. He 23 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: called in law enforcement officers to return the American flag 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: to its place, but the activist babies tried to remove 25 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: it again, and a group of frat guys stepped in 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: and protected the flag. Student Guillermo Estrata tweeted out, quote, 27 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: today was a sad yet empowering day at Chapel Hill. 28 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: When I walked to class, I saw the Palestinian flag 29 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: raised on our quad flag pole and was immediately upset 30 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: at the act that these protesters had made. I cannot 31 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 1: say I am fully educated on the Israel Palestinian conflict, 32 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: but it upset me that my country's flag was disrespected 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: in order to advocate for another end quote. I mean, 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: that's exactly it. You don't have to even comment on 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: the conflict to say no other flag should be flying 36 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: above your college campus. Guermo and some other boys stepped in, 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: and people were screaming at them and throwing things at 38 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: them and generally were harassing them, but they wouldn't stop 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: until the American flag was up. It became a giant story. 40 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: I mean, all over the country, all these news outlets 41 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: picked it up. I think America really needed to see 42 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: someone defend the flag, defend our country, openly love our country. 43 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: And there has been just such an outpouring of support 44 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: for these boys. Someone started to gofund me and it 45 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: was kind of jokey. It was you to throw a party, 46 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: and last I checked, the goalfundme was at two hundred 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: and seventeen thousand dollars. I mean, that's going to be 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: a wild rager. I just love seeing the country so 49 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: invested in this story. And I do think it's because 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: we've gotten so used to people not stepping in, and 51 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: it's just so nice to see heroes like this. I 52 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: really hope it spurs more people to take action when 53 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: they see something bad being done, be a hero step in. 54 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: Coming up next, an interview with Naomi Shaeffer Riley. Join 55 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: us after the break. Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz 56 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today is Naomi Riley, Senior 57 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the Independent Women's Forum. 58 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: Her latest book is called No Way to Treat a Child. 59 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: How the foster care system, family courts, and racial activists 60 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: are wrecking Young Lives. The book is sold anywhere you 61 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: buy your books. Check it out. Hi, Naomi, So nice 62 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: to have you on. 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: Hey, Carol, thanks for having me. 64 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: You know, I see you as like this very sunny 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: person and I know you cover you know, some really 66 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: dark topics. Like whenever I see you, you know, you're 67 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: very smiling and we're always like I'm always happy to 68 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: see you. I don't know, I don't know if the 69 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: feeling is a mutual, but I always see you and 70 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: like you're like, you know, this like little ray of sunshine, 71 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: but you really do get into some deep dark stuff. 72 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: How do you manage that? 73 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: So probably the first thing that I did that was 74 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: kind of really down this rabbit hole was a book 75 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: I wrote about American Indians a few years ago, and 76 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 2: I traveled to a lot of reservations, like really depressed 77 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: areas and just shocking things about child abuse and violence. 78 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: And I have to say it was like very disconcerting 79 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: to just sort of come back to my nice New 80 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: York suburb and like go to pta meetings and like 81 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: pretend that the problems that we have or anywhere close 82 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: to these. But you know, I think, like, you know, 83 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 2: I don't you know, for bedtime reading, like I read 84 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: very you know, silly, cheesy beach novels, like I can't 85 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: do this stuff after a certain hour of the day. 86 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: But it's hard sometimes, like I think it really is depressing. 87 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: What did you find most interesting about writing your last book? 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: Is there anything surprising in it that you didn't expect 89 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: to find? 90 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: So, I mean the child welfare stuff I actually got 91 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 2: into because I wrote this book about American Indians, they 92 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: have some of the worst outcomes in the country in 93 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: terms of child abuse and neglect. I think what I 94 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: was most surprised by and what led me to write 95 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: this book, No Way to Treat a Child, was that 96 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 2: our child welfare system really isn't oriented around the needs 97 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: of children. It's really oriented around the needs and desires 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: of adults. And maybe that's not surprising because obviously adults 99 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 2: are much better at talking and explaining themselves than children are. 100 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: But we have this whole system and systems in each 101 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: one of the states, and it seems like what we've 102 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: decided is that, you know, we care much more about 103 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 2: kind of you know, if parents are addicted to drugs 104 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 2: or have severe mental illness, like, we care much more about, 105 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 2: you know, rehabilitating them, even at the cost of kind 106 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 2: of leaving children in some fairly dangerous situations. So I 107 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: think that was that was just shocking to me, Like 108 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: as an ordinary citizen who didn't really think a lot 109 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 2: about the child welfare system before this, I thought, well, 110 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: you know, these are people who you know care most 111 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 2: about kids and are centering needs of kids, and they're not. 112 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: Interesting because yeah, I think I definitely think like, oh, 113 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: they're doing their best, and you know, I'm sure I yes, 114 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: I would absolutely think that they're centering the needs of kids, 115 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: Like what else is. 116 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: The point of their work. 117 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: It's also, you know, I find myself saying the title 118 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: of your book before this one, be the parent whenever 119 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: somebody's like, you know, how do I get my kids 120 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: to not be on their phone so much? And I'm like, 121 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: be the parent, parent and say no. And I you know, 122 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times like people will be like, you know, 123 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: it's like heroin addiction these phones, I'm like, it's really not. 124 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: It's really not like heroin addiction because heroin you sell 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: everything you own to get the drug, and hear you 126 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: just cancel their phone and that's the end of that. 127 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: So not not exactly like Heroin Addiction. 128 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, but be the Parent. 129 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: I thought was a really clear, great title for a 130 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: book and really what parents should be aiming for. You're 131 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: not their friend, you're not their buddy. Yes, you can 132 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: have a friendly relationship, but be the parent. Yeah. 133 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: And I do compare it to other things in the book, 134 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: not Heroin actually, but things like cake. Like I tell parents, 135 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: you know, your kids would really like to eat chocolate 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: cake for breakfast every morning, like, and if you let them, 137 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: well you know, I mean, let's say you let them 138 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: like once every couple of weeks, they're going to badger 139 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: you endlessly to do it every single day. And so 140 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: you have to ask yourself, like, what am I doing 141 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: differently here, Like I'm giving in on the technology all 142 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: the time, or enough that my kids think it's reasonable 143 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: for them to badger me. And so the question is like, well, 144 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: maybe if I treated this like chocolate cake and we 145 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: never have it for breakfast, nobody ever expects that you're 146 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: going to have a phone constantly. So I think it's 147 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: just getting parents to kind of they are the parent 148 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: in many contexts and just sort of getting them to 149 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: apply it a little bit more in other context especially technology. 150 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like here's parents say so often like 151 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: butt all their friends do it or all their friends 152 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: have it like I, and I just is mind boggling 153 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: to me, because I you know, obviously, I think our 154 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: generation we were raised with the idea of like, well, 155 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you 156 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: jump off a bridge? 157 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: But now the Brooklyn Bridge, particularly. 158 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: The parents making that argument on their own, like not 159 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: even like the kid being like all my friends have it, 160 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: but the parent saying I don't want my kids to 161 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: be different from their friends. Look, Mike, kids are fourteen, eleven, 162 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: and eight, and they my older well, they all have 163 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: iPads that they play like games, but just not very often. 164 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean we you know, we curtail it, but social 165 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: media and stuff, like my older daughter has it in 166 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: very limited quantities, and my sons don't have it at all. 167 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: And I don't care what your friends have. I don't 168 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: care if your friends are eight years old and on TikTok. 169 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: That's not happening in our house. And it's weird that 170 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: other parents find that difficult to say. 171 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think you're right that a lot of parents 172 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: are even preempting their kids saying, you know, all my 173 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: friends have it like our generation is so determined that 174 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: our kids should never have to experience like being left 175 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: out or being hurt or anything like that, that we're 176 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 2: just going so far out of our way to even 177 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: make sure that that possibility is never there. And I think, yeah, 178 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: I mean it's just as part of growing up. Sometimes 179 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: you have things that other people have and don't have, 180 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: and sometimes they have things you don't have, and understanding 181 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: that like families are different, and you know, these are 182 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: all important lessons that I think or just failing to 183 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: pass on. 184 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's to the parents in particular, which is 185 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: what the weird part for me is. Yeah, I you know, 186 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: what would you think, Well, what would you say is 187 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: kind of the challenge of parenting today? Or is there 188 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: an overarching theme that you find in your work? 189 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: So I think I sort of actually have to divide 190 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: America into kind of two different I think kids in 191 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: America have kind of two different kinds of kids with 192 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: two very different kinds of problems. So the stuff when 193 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,719 Speaker 2: I write about child welfare, I'm really writing about a 194 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: group of kids who don't have parents, who are not parents, 195 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: who are helicoptering or anything like that. They are out 196 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: to lunch, they're you know, experiencing drug abuse or mental illness, 197 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: or they're just you know, not paying attention to parenting 198 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: in any way. And then there are a group of 199 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: parent kids into America who are clearly overparented and helicopter 200 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 2: parented and are prevented from you know, stunted in a 201 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 2: way that they don't grow up. The first group of 202 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: kids are growing up much too fast, and they you know, 203 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 2: eight year olds who have to behave like adults because 204 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: they're facing all of the pressures and the horrors of 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: adulthood early. And the other group of kids are sort 206 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: of infantilized. And so I think it's in that way, 207 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: it's kind of like hard to find a common theme 208 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 2: here because you know, obviously we all want some happy medium, 209 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: but these two groups of kids are facing really different challenges. 210 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: What would you. 211 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: Say is our largest cultural problem overall, not specifically relating 212 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: to children, Like, is there is there something societally that 213 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: you feel is our biggest issue. So increasingly I've come 214 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: to the view, I mean, let's take this or I mean, 215 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: a lot of people I think that I very much respect, 216 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: would say, like the breakdown of the family and I 217 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: think that's definitely true, probably just because of my work 218 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: and my perspective these days, I actually think it's drugs, 219 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: Like I think, you know, one hundred thousand overdoses a year, 220 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: Like we are increasingly seeing cases of like not only 221 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: rising prenatal exposure, but you know, children dying pediatric. 222 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: Poisonings of exposure to fentanyl. I just think it is 223 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: destroying relationships, destroying family relationships, certainly destroying just people's ability 224 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: to work, to operate, to find a purpose in life. 225 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: And I just I don't think we're taking it seriously enough. 226 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: And if anything, I think our culture has just become 227 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: far too accepting of this. I mean, it's some of 228 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: it is the legalization efforts, but some of it is 229 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 2: it's all just a big joke and it's really not 230 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 2: Is it solvable? 231 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: Do you think there's anything we can do? Is there 232 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: policy changes that can be made, or is it really 233 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: just cultural? 234 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: There are definitely policy changes that should be made. I mean, 235 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 2: I think, you know, obviously, I spent some time in Portland, 236 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: Oregon last summer, and it was apocalyptic, I mean just 237 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 2: seeing people there. And the reason I went by the 238 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: way is that there are kids living in homeless encampments there. 239 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: So it's not just you know, adults who or like, 240 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: I'm making my own choices and I do whatever I want. 241 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: Just you know, people urinating, defecating on sidewalks, like not 242 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: being able to enforce any you know, any kind of 243 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: basic civility. You know on the streets. You know, people 244 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: just overdosing left and right and by the way, like 245 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: you know, there are empty shelter beds everywhere, and you 246 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 2: know courts that were sort of drug courts that were 247 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 2: supposed to sort of be non punitive avenues for people 248 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: to get help. Those have closed down too, because once 249 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: you sort of take away any kind of accountability, if 250 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: you can't arrest people or can't you know, do anything 251 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: to sort of force them into treatment, a drug addict 252 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: very rarely sort of says, ah, yes, I realized I 253 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: have this problem. I am going to hold myself accountable 254 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: and I am going to march myself into a rehab facility, 255 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: and I am going to state that just doesn't happen enough. 256 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 2: And so I think we need to reinsert accountability into this. 257 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: And also I think, you know, culturally, we need to 258 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: have some some different ideas about destruction that drugs are doing. 259 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: Is there something unique to Portland that makes that? Is 260 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: it policy? Is it? 261 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: Oh? Definitely, definitely policy, like made it absolutely you know, 262 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 2: kind of the horror show that it is now. I mean, 263 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: I think a lot of the people who voted for 264 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: Measure one ten, which you know, sort of did most 265 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 2: of the legalization there. And by the way, you know, 266 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: everything was legalized, you know, cocaine, heroin, whatever, it wasn't 267 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: just pot, you know, I think a lot of the 268 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 2: people who voted for that, you know, really sort of 269 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: took in this idea that you know, we want to 270 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: be non punitive and we don't want to like, you know, 271 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: just put these people in prison for having you know, 272 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: a little bit of cocaine on them. And the result was, 273 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, we can't do anything. We can't we can't 274 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: even help them because you have to push people to 275 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: get help and they're not doing that anymore. 276 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's depressing. I just feel like giving up our 277 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, the cities in America, and I'm guilty of 278 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: it because I think of things like, oh, you know, Portland, 279 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: like they did it to themselves, Like I'm not going 280 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: to go visit I'm you know who cares about them. 281 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: But it's depressing that we do write off these American 282 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: cities because they've messed up so badly and they've done 283 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: such damage to themselves that we kind of don't see 284 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: a way out for them anymore. I don't know what 285 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: these cities can do to turn it around. I don't 286 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: think that they have the will to turn it around. 287 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I often worry about New York. Obviously, 288 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: that's my kind of my only priority city wise. I 289 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: want New York to turn itself around. But places like Portland, 290 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: I just think like that's it for them. Do you 291 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: feel that way? 292 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: I think because I have hope for. 293 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: New York, you know, I want. I feel like I 294 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: feel like New York can do it still. I feel 295 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: like New York could still find its path back to sanity. 296 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: We were there not that long ago. 297 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: I think the problem is it doesn't Yeah, it does 298 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: doesn't take very long to descend into a really bad 299 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: place with these cities, and it takes a long time 300 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: to pull them back up. And so you know, twenty 301 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 2: years ago, lots of people wanted to go to Portland 302 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: and it was a great place and you know, sure 303 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: and had its problems. It was a little crazy, but 304 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: it wasn't a place where you would as I you know, 305 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: found when I was there, Like I literally opened the 306 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: door to my hotel and there's a naked man, you know, 307 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: in a wheelchair riding by, Like, and you didn't want 308 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: to that, right, you know? Like what happened to get 309 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: us to that point? It didn't take that long for 310 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: the city to go that far down, but it is 311 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: going to take a long time. And part of the 312 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: problem is, of course, there are lots of people living 313 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 2: there who are like, I can't take this anymore. Then 314 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: you have the exodus of the same people, and you 315 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: know who was left to push for the changes that 316 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: you want. 317 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really the issue. I think in so many 318 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: of these places that people are saying I've had enough 319 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: and they're getting out, and who's there to fix it? 320 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: It's not anybody who wants It's really hard. 321 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, so how many books have you written? I'm 322 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure this out today? I am on because 323 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: quite a few. 324 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: You're on seven or eight? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I. 325 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: Do love it is it. I've written one, as you know, 326 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: and I don't know that I'm ever going to do another. One. 327 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 1: I find them so difficult. 328 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: I really love the research part and for all the 329 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: just about all the books I've written, I've done traveling. 330 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 2: I've you know, gotten to interview all sorts of interesting people, 331 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 2: and I've seen fascinating things, and I I love writing 332 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: sort of the short pieces along the way during my research. 333 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: You know, sitting down in a morning to like write 334 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: a seven thousand word chapter like definitely is not my 335 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: favorite thing. So and it's an easy part. 336 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: That's like what I when I've come to realize that's 337 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: the easy part of writing a book. Like the writing 338 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 3: part is like is like is the fun part, which 339 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 3: seems like crazy at the time, But you know, the 340 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 3: editing and the touring and all of that, I just 341 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: don't know. 342 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: I find probably the hardest part is just the organizing, 343 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: like figuring out what is the organizing principle of the book. 344 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 2: Once I sort of have that down, I feel like 345 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 2: it becomes much easier. But sitting down with just enormous 346 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 2: amounts of you know, of transcripts and recordings and recollections 347 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: and notes, it's just really hard to sort of figure out, 348 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: you know, where's this book going to start and where 349 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: is it going to end, and so that's yeah, what 350 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: I find the most taxing and the part where I 351 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: really feel like I need just you know, hours on 352 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: end to devote to this. Like I can't just sit down, 353 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: you know, I could sit down and write an op 354 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: ed in an hour, but you know, sitting down and 355 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: thinking about organizing a book is like, Okay, I need 356 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: to find a five hour chunk of time to start 357 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: thinking about this. 358 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you've made it? Yeah? 359 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: I have a great life. I mean, I you know, 360 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 2: I get to write about all sorts of different topics 361 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: that interest me, and I've gone from topic to topic, 362 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 2: you know, I've managed to publish, you know, in lots 363 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: of papers and magazines that I really like. I've worked 364 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: with some amazing editors. I have you know, gotten philanthropic 365 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: support for the work that I've done, you know, and 366 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 2: I have a job that allows me to you know, 367 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: be home with my kids a lot too. So it's yeah, 368 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: absolutely awesome. 369 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: I had your husband on this show, Jason Riley, he's 370 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: heard journal. Yeah. Do you guys disagree on things? Is 371 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: there a political strife ever in the Riley household? 372 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: Oh, we definitely disagree on things, But I wouldn't say 373 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 2: it's like it's a sort of ideological disagreement. I mean, 374 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: I think there are sort of you know, particular issues, 375 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: like you know, we'll sit around talking about articles in 376 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: the paper, things like that, and yeah, I mean, you know, 377 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: talk about kind of the upsides and downsides of doing things. 378 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: I think a lot of the most you know, interesting 379 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: disagreements people have are sometimes you know, when they're starting 380 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: from kind of the same set of principles, and it's, 381 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: you know, something I found when I was in college. 382 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: I worked for a conservative paper, but the paper actually 383 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: included social conservatives, libertarians kind of like more traditional Republicans, 384 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: and you know, just listening to people sort of have 385 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: these interesting disagreements where they didn't start from kind of 386 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: different planets, I thought were some of the most productive 387 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 2: discussions that I heard. 388 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: I love that, and I feel like we do it 389 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 1: a lot less on the right now. It's very personality driven. 390 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: I don't even know what a lot of people believe anymore. 391 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: I just know who they don't like and who they 392 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: don't talk to, and the factions. 393 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I think we need to sort 394 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: of ask ourselves, like, you know, if do we have 395 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 2: the same first principles. I mean, maybe people on the 396 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: right don't have the same first principles anymore, and that's 397 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: a that's a concern too. But you know, let's say 398 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: you start from the perspective of limited government. You know, 399 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: what does that mean for your opinion about any number 400 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: of issues? Like you know, do you do you what 401 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: does that even mean for your you know, for your 402 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: position on on marriage or abortion or you know, any 403 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: number of other things, right, you know, And for me, 404 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: I'm kind of always in this interesting position writing about 405 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: child welfare because I think, you know, for the most part, 406 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 2: a lot of conservatives start from the perspective of the 407 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: government is going to screw this up, and so you know, 408 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 2: but then I sort of say to people, well, you know, 409 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: in an ideal world, child welfare is acting much more 410 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: like law enforcement, which most conservatives think that we need 411 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: in some form or another. And so, yes, you're right, like, ideally, 412 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 2: you know, the government is not intervening in the day 413 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 2: to day workings of families. But you know, when when 414 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 2: children are being abused or severely neglected, someone has to 415 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: do something. And so how do you best, you know, 416 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: make that work? I mean, one of the earliest questions 417 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: that I asked about child welfare when I just started 418 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: thinking about it when I was much younger, was what 419 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 2: is the what is the broken windows theory of child welfare? 420 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 2: Because I want to understand, like we take it for granted, 421 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 2: like you know, law enforcement, police, that's a bureaucracy too, 422 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: Like how can we make this work better? Because it 423 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 2: has to be there. 424 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 425 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So you have a 426 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: project coming up with a AEI to help this along, right, 427 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about it? Yeah? 428 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: So I do a bunch of different things at AI, 429 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: do you know, events with people I do you know, 430 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 2: I have a working group there that's devoted to child welfare. 431 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: And on May second, we are going to be launching 432 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: a project on child maltreatment fatalities. So around two thousand 433 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: children each year and maybe many more are dying because 434 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: of the abuse or neglect at the hands of their caregivers. 435 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: So that's you know, if you're counting more than the 436 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: number of kids who are drowning every year, more than 437 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: the number of kids who are you know, caught in 438 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: you know, mass school shootings or any of these other 439 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: things that seem to be at the top of the 440 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: media priorities. And one thing that I think people really 441 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 2: don't understand is that the vast majority of those cases, 442 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: the families are already known to child welfare or to 443 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: law enforcement. Like we had a chance to do something, 444 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 2: and often we made some pretty poor decisions. But the 445 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 2: project itself is really devoted to counting these kids and 446 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: giving names and faces to these children who are often 447 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: forgotten about, and really trying to force states to be 448 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: more transparent about what is happening in these cases, you know, 449 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: and eventually try to understand the policies that have led 450 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: to some of these I think bad decisions on the 451 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 2: part of child welfare agencies. 452 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: Does the database have a name is does it have 453 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: any Yes? 454 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: Yes, Well it's going to be at a website called 455 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 2: Livescutshort dot org, and so the database will be housed 456 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 2: within that. 457 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: Wow, it sounds like a really major project. It's interesting, 458 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: of course that there's you know, no such thing on 459 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: the government side already, which would have been you know, 460 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: the obvious thing, I think, to catalog and to count 461 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: all these kids so they don't get lost. 462 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: So there is like I should say that. You know, 463 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: some some states count they count in all different ways. 464 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: They often count in ways that are a little bit lazy, 465 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: like they're not you know, uh, they're not taking account 466 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: of you know, they're they're classifying things that as accidents 467 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 2: that any reasonable person would say, we're not fully accidents. 468 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: States are doing it differently, and so the federal government, 469 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: you know, doesn't have a unified way of counting. And 470 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: and I just I think we're we're we seem to 471 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: be seriously undercounting. So there is some you know, government 472 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: attempt at this. I just don't think it's very good, 473 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 2: and I think people will be surprised at how bad 474 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: it is. 475 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: Wow. Well, I look forward to seeing it. I'm sure 476 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: it's going to do good because I think that something 477 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: something like that seems like an obvious thing that you know, 478 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: is necessary and I could see it, you know, leading 479 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: to good places for you. 480 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 2: Yes. 481 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: So, and here with your best tip for my listeners 482 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: on how they can be like sunny Naomi, but you know, 483 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: doing the serious work at the same time, a tip 484 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: on how to best. 485 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: Improve their lives. So I tell my kids this is 486 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: my my my Okay, thanks Philosophy. So I often get 487 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: angry emails or emails that make me angry, or you know, 488 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 2: people who come up to me, but especially like a 489 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 2: lot of you get a lot of hate mail because 490 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: of who I am or just you know, comments or 491 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: things like that. And you know, sometimes it's because of 492 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 2: something I've written or because of something I said. Sometimes 493 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 2: it's just you know, typical sort of interpersonal conflicts that 494 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: you have with friends, extended family, whatever. And I started 495 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: quite a number of years ago deciding that I can 496 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 2: either write like my five paragraph angry response responding to 497 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: every single point here, or I can write back okay, 498 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: and I must drive them bananas. 499 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: It does. 500 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: It absolutely does, and that's sort of an added benefit 501 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: for me that it drives them a little bit bananas. 502 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 2: But it sort of allows me to kind of put 503 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: a little on things and not waste a lot of 504 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: time having these back and forth with people who clearly, 505 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: you know, need to have the last word, and you know, 506 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: we'll just you know, I've taken it means I've taken 507 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: in what you've said, you know, and in many cases 508 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: I have, and I'm willing to sort of leave it there. 509 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: So anyway, that's my advice. 510 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: I love that Okay, thanks, yeah, thanks so much for 511 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: coming on. Naomi. Check out her many books on sale 512 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: wherever you buy your book. The last one is called 513 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: No Way to Treat a Child and we're looking forward 514 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: to seeing your project at AEI. Thanks so much for 515 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: coming on. Thank you, thanks so much for joining us 516 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: on The Carol Marcowitz Show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.