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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking solutions from money anxiety with financial therapist

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Brian Podvin.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's more to money than just figuring out

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Speaker 2: the financial nuts and bolts right. Money has an emotional

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Speaker 2: and psychological component to it as well, which is at

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Speaker 2: the core of what our guest today focuses on. We're

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Speaker 2: happy to be joined by Lindsay Brian Podvin, who happens

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Speaker 2: to be the first financial therapist in the state of Michigan.

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Speaker 2: She is a social worker turned financial therapist, and she's

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Speaker 2: also the author of the book The Financial Anxiety Solution,

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Speaker 2: which is a workbook to help folks to stop stressing

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Speaker 2: about money by applying therapy techniques to your relationship with money.

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Speaker 2: So we're excited to talk about the thoughts and the

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Speaker 2: feelings behind money and how you can improve your financial

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Speaker 2: well being today, Lindsay, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 2: us on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm so so happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Lindsay, We're glad to have you and yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a really fun, interesting conversation because Matt

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Speaker 1: and I we touch on this stuff sometimes on the show,

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Speaker 1: but We're no expert. You are, so we want to

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Speaker 1: pick your brain. But the first question we ask everyone

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Speaker 1: who comes on the show is what do you like

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Speaker 1: to sporge on? Matt and I we sporge on craft beer,

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Speaker 1: and so we want to know, while you're saving the

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Speaker 1: investing for the future, what's your craft beer equivalent.

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Speaker 3: My splurges vary. So my partner and I do fun

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Speaker 3: money at the beginning of every month, So I usually

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Speaker 3: save up a little bit and then we'll go get

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Speaker 3: a facial or a massage every other month, but it

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Speaker 3: isn't always a spa day. This month, I spent my

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Speaker 3: fun money and a little bit of last month's fun

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Speaker 3: money because I saved up to buy a nice, shiny

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Speaker 3: new nos ring that you had the opportunity to see

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Speaker 3: before we hit record.

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Speaker 2: So sorry, I did not compliment to the news.

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Speaker 3: And it's some nice new bling, so I'm really excited

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: I like that you you rotate it too, you're and

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Speaker 1: that you put it in your budget, but then you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever I want with it. The world is

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Speaker 1: kind of your.

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Speaker 3: Oyster exactly, yes, exactly, And that's how I kind of

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Speaker 3: scratch that itch to be a little bit spontaneous without

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Speaker 3: blowing the spending plan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, make room for that item or experience or service,

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Speaker 2: whatever that might be. But yeah, I really like the

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Speaker 2: fact that you're keeping things fresh. But lindsay, let's talk

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Speaker 2: about financial therapy because it, honestly, it feels like there's

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Speaker 2: a massive need for money and for therapy to intersect.

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Speaker 2: It seems like so many folks have just a horrendous

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Speaker 2: history with money that affects them, you know, to this day.

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Speaker 2: But this is still an incredibly tiny field. What is

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Speaker 2: it that caused you to get into the space.

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Speaker 3: What caused me to get into the space was my

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Speaker 3: own lived experience, which I think happens with a lot

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Speaker 3: of people who go into therapy. So I really went

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Speaker 3: into therapy because I have a personal and a strong

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Speaker 3: family history of mental illness, and so I knew I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do something in this space of depression and

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Speaker 3: anxiety work. And as I got into that work, I

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Speaker 3: got my first paycheck post grad school, and I was

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Speaker 3: making less than I was making as a waitress, And

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Speaker 3: the amount of financial shame and guilt and embarrassment that

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Speaker 3: I experienced was really really impactful. I come from financial privilege,

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Speaker 3: and I graduated without student loans, and even without student loans,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't like I was sitting on, you know, just

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Speaker 3: a pile of cash, and so when you're living paycheck

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Speaker 3: to paycheck, it became really tight. You know. I don't

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Speaker 3: have to explain to you or your listeners how hard

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Speaker 3: it can be. But what I found really interesting interesting

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Speaker 3: is probably not the right word at the time, but

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Speaker 3: interesting in retrospect, was how when I was so stressed financially,

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Speaker 3: how negatively it impacted my mental health. I have a

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Speaker 3: history of depression and anxiety that was really really well

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Speaker 3: managed up until that point, and my symptoms really came

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Speaker 3: roaring back when I was earning so little money, and

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Speaker 3: I did what I could. I read all the personal

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Speaker 3: finance books and basically they were all telling me, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's your fault. You just got to buck up and

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Speaker 3: work harder and save more. And I just felt like

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Speaker 3: there had to be something more to it. This was

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Speaker 3: also pre uber indoor dash days, so I couldn't just

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Speaker 3: like go out at night inside hustle, and because my

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Speaker 3: mental health wasn't great, I couldn't actually pick up waitressing

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Speaker 3: on the weekends because a part of my symptoms of

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Speaker 3: depression and anxiety was that I developed in Szombia. So

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Speaker 3: when you're not sleeping, your mental health isn't great. And

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Speaker 3: then also for me, it really showed up as physically,

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Speaker 3: like when you're not sleeping, your immune system takes a

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Speaker 3: huge nose dive. Right, So it was just this spiral

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Speaker 3: of one thing on top of another on top of another.

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Speaker 3: And I stayed at that job for a good amount

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Speaker 3: of time. And when I negotiated a raise, as I

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Speaker 3: was taught to do in all those books that I read,

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Speaker 3: I was told, you know, we can't give you a raise,

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Speaker 3: and in fact, you should be grateful that you have

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Speaker 3: a job. And you know, I don't say it to

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Speaker 3: be like, oh poor me. I think this is a

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Speaker 3: lived experience for many people, particularly for those who go

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Speaker 3: into helping or healing professions nurses, social workers, teachers. But

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Speaker 3: I realized like I couldn't stay there, even though I

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Speaker 3: loved the work that I was doing. I really had

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Speaker 3: to practice financial self care and mental health care. And

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Speaker 3: so when I went to find a better paying job,

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Speaker 3: and within probably a month, my symptoms started to quiet down.

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Speaker 3: I started to be able to sleep again. The treatment

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Speaker 3: that I was under before started to work again, and

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Speaker 3: it was this light bulb moment of as a social

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Speaker 3: worker when I was sitting across from a client who

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Speaker 3: was struggling with depression or anxiety. If they told me

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Speaker 3: they were struggling with money, my job was to tell them, Hey,

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Speaker 3: here's an eight hundred number you can call and they

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Speaker 3: will make sure that your heat doesn't turn off. Right.

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Speaker 3: I live in Michigan, so that's kind of important this

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Speaker 3: time of year, right exactly. But they were there were

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Speaker 3: short term solutions, and it also felt like I was

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Speaker 3: just telling them what to do, whereas in other mental

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Speaker 3: health care treatment you're really making sure that they're onboard

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Speaker 3: and that they are part of the process and that

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Speaker 3: the things that we're going to do are going to

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Speaker 3: work for them. So it just felt like this missed connection,

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Speaker 3: if you will, and that I was helping people with

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Speaker 3: depression and anxiety they had money stressors. I didn't want

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Speaker 3: to become a financial planner. I didn't want to go

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Speaker 3: in the advising room. I wanted to stay in my

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Speaker 3: lane of mental health care. But I wanted to be

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Speaker 3: more well rounded and more balanced when helping my clients

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Speaker 3: with their money concerns. And having my lived experience of

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Speaker 3: seeing how much more beneficial my own mental health care

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Speaker 3: regimen was when I actually had enough funds coming in

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Speaker 3: to practice self care in the way that I needed to.

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Speaker 3: So I found the Financial Therapy Association and the Center

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Speaker 3: for Financial Social Work, got certificates in both of those programs,

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Speaker 3: and fast forward, here we are today, and this is

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Speaker 3: what I do full time practice financial therapy.

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Speaker 2: I love it.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned before we started that there's what like

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Speaker 1: something only like forty financial therapists maybe across the nation.

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Speaker 1: So this is not some sort of vibrant, booming industry

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Speaker 1: Like you are kind of a trailblazer really in this regard.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious to a lot of difficult topics get

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Speaker 1: broached to the traditional therapy session. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of things to get brought up. But why is money

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Speaker 1: such a neglected topic so much of the time in

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Speaker 1: traditional therapy even though we know that money causes and

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Speaker 1: poor money usage and not having enough money causes so

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Speaker 1: many problems really that we face. It seems like we

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Speaker 1: the more we ignore it, the worse our collective money

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Speaker 1: issues become.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's a

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Speaker 3: tricky question to answer because so many of us have

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Speaker 3: so little access to financial literacy but also the holistic

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Speaker 3: view of financial well being. When I was in grad school,

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Speaker 3: I didn't get any training on money, and across the

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Speaker 3: nation right now, only a handful of grad schools who

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Speaker 3: incorporate finances into their training for mental health care providers.

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Speaker 3: So I think there's just a huge gap in the training.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why exactly we don't address it. It

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Speaker 3: blows my mind because, as you said, there are really

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Speaker 3: difficult things that we talk about in therapy, and to me,

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Speaker 3: every single person we sit across from, either virtually or physically,

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Speaker 3: is going to have a relationship with money. So it

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Speaker 3: just feels like a huge, huge miss. And that said,

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Speaker 3: I'm not all Debbie Downer. I do think a lot

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Speaker 3: of schools are making some progress and incorporating financial wellness,

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Speaker 3: financial literacy training, and financial psychology into their programs. And

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Speaker 3: my hope is that, you know, in another few years,

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Speaker 3: I will no longer be just on the front end

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Speaker 3: of things. I hope that there will be more colleagues

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Speaker 3: around that I can refer to. You know, there's a

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Speaker 3: huge need for people to have this type of care sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean you're talking about your training, let's

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Speaker 2: talk about what exactly you do as a financial therapist.

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Speaker 2: Are you looking at budgets and spreadsheets, you know, like,

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Speaker 2: are you talking about retirement account contribution limits or are

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Speaker 2: you mostly sticking to the thoughts and the feelings side

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Speaker 2: of things as you're talking with your clients.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, mostly hang out in the thoughts and feeling space.

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Speaker 3: But in order to get certified in financial therapy and

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Speaker 3: financial social work, we did have to do some of

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Speaker 3: the basic building blocks of financial education. And what I

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Speaker 3: usually think about is if it kind of stays in

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Speaker 3: the realm of education versus advising, I'm comfy being there.

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Speaker 3: But the second we get into which is better this

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Speaker 3: or that, that's really outside my realm. I'm obviously never

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Speaker 3: touching anything with stock advising, investment advice. I really stay

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Speaker 3: in the place of what's getting in the way of

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Speaker 3: doing the things that you want to do. What are

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Speaker 3: some things that we collectively can work together towards moving

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Speaker 3: the needle towards the things that matter to you. And

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Speaker 3: I'm also really comfortable saying, hey, that's outside of my scope.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely a CFP or hit up your works HR

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Speaker 3: rep and see if somebody else can talk to you

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Speaker 3: there about different retirement elections. So I'm also pretty comfortable

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Speaker 3: in my wheelhouse and referring when things are outside of

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Speaker 3: my wheelhouse.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, And so when you're kind of starting out

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Speaker 1: with a new client, my guess is a lot of

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Speaker 1: issues that people have today with money in adulthood stem

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Speaker 1: from things that happen in childhood. I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: mean looking at my own career trajectory. So you talked

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Speaker 1: about your lived experience and how it kind of pushed

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Speaker 1: you in this direction. My lived experience of my parents

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Speaker 1: not handling money terribly well pushed me in a direction

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Speaker 1: at a really impressionable age. And look what I do

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Speaker 1: now for a living. So I don't know, how often

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Speaker 1: are you going back to kind of things that happen

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Speaker 1: in childhood to really kind of decipher how that's impacting

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Speaker 1: what's happening today.

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Speaker 3: Such a good question, and I'm always going back to childhood.

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Speaker 3: We know that you both have kids, so you know

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Speaker 3: when your kiddos are young, their little brains are sponges

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Speaker 3: and they are soaking up everything around them. And we

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Speaker 3: were little at one point too, and what research shows

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Speaker 3: us is that by the time we're about seven or

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Speaker 3: eight years old, we more or less have decided what

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Speaker 3: we think about money. And so when you go back

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Speaker 3: to what was going on in those early elementary years

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Speaker 3: or those early childhood years, it makes perfect sense why

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Speaker 3: so many of us when we hit eighteen, twenty one,

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Speaker 3: twenty five or whatever, our version of becoming financial adults.

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Speaker 3: Is why we make so many choices that might not

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Speaker 3: make perfect sense, because if you think about your inner

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Speaker 3: seven or eight year old self driving those financial decisions,

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Speaker 3: it helps to provide some context and some meaning to

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Speaker 3: why we do what we do. And for those listening

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Speaker 3: who are like, well, my parents or caregivers never talked

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Speaker 3: about money, that is just as impactful as having grown

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Speaker 3: up in a household where you heard your parents are

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Speaker 3: caregivers arguing about money all the time. Right, we soak

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Speaker 3: things up, even if they aren't explicitly said. We soak

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Speaker 3: things up by the way that things feel when we're

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Speaker 3: in the checkout line at a grocery store or when

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Speaker 3: holiday cards arrive in the mail. Right, we soak up

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Speaker 3: the emotion in the room. And so when I'm working

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Speaker 3: with my clients, we often go back to that, and

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Speaker 3: then we're also thinking about the first meaning the first

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Speaker 3: time you got a paycheck, the first time you got

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Speaker 3: a job, the first time you got a credit card,

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Speaker 3: because those first also tend to leave a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a bigger, stickier impression, And so we also want

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Speaker 3: to think through what did it feel like the first

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Speaker 3: time you got a paycheck and when you saw how

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Speaker 3: much went out for taxes, and when you saw how

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Speaker 3: much went to Social Security, and then when you went to,

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Speaker 3: you know, go pay your first cell phone bill. Right,

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Speaker 3: all of those different things impact why we do what

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Speaker 3: we do now.

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Speaker 2: Makes a ton of sense. And Lindsey I mentioned the

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Speaker 2: book that you wrote on financial anxiety. How can someone

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Speaker 2: know if they are experiencing financial anxiety because we all

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Speaker 2: deal with sort of like the day to day stresses

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Speaker 2: of oh I wish I had some more money on

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Speaker 2: to do the things I want to do. But how

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Speaker 2: does someone know if they're dealing with actual financial stress

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Speaker 2: as opposed to you know, maybe just a small lesson

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Speaker 2: for them to learn that, oh, maybe they need to

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Speaker 2: go in a different direction with their career. Oh maybe

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Speaker 2: I need to cut back a little bit all my expenses.

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Speaker 2: I feel like there's a kind of a fine line

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Speaker 2: between the two.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're exactly right in that we all experience anxiety,

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Speaker 3: and we all experience financial anxiety. It's a healthy response

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Speaker 3: to any sort of stressor. And so when I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about financial anxiety, I'm talking about literally the physical sensations

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Speaker 3: that mimic what traditional anxiety feels like, because it's going

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Speaker 3: to feel the exact same in your body, so sweaty palms,

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Speaker 3: tight throat, racing heart, notts in your stomach, all of

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Speaker 3: those things that can kind of come along with anxiety.

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Speaker 3: And then when we think about the thoughts that come

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Speaker 3: up with financial anxiety, it's being worried, nervous, or on edge,

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Speaker 3: often ruminating on thoughts for longer than the amount of

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Speaker 3: time that the stressor exists, or kind of questioning yourself

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Speaker 3: or having money on your mind all the time, and

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Speaker 3: then those behaviors sometimes being impulsive, like oh, I just

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna pay all my bills right now without sitting

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Speaker 3: down and looking through everything, and then realizing that you

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Speaker 3: frontloaded and paid a bunch of bills, but you didn't

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Speaker 3: consider that your rent was due, and now you're short

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Speaker 3: on your rent. So to back up financial anxiety is

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Speaker 3: a normal short term response to a financial stressor where

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Speaker 3: it becomes problematic is if that financial anxiety is impacting

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Speaker 3: your ability to manage your money or engage with others

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Speaker 3: around finances. So, for example, if I wanted to make

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Speaker 3: sure that my paycheck actually went through, I might refresh

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Speaker 3: my banking app on the day that I'm supposed to

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Speaker 3: get that paycheck, and I might be a little bit

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Speaker 3: anxious while it's refreshing, and then when I see that

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Speaker 3: money hit my account and I go, who Okay, cool,

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Speaker 3: my boss paid my bills or paid my paycheck. Were

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Speaker 3: all set. But if throughout the day, I'm continually checking

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Speaker 3: in on that bank account just to make sure that

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Speaker 3: what I saw was really there, then that might be

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Speaker 3: a queue that we're tipping into more financial anxiety territory

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Speaker 3: that could use a little bit of help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've identified a number of like false or

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Speaker 1: temporary solutions that we often turn to when we're dealing

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Speaker 1: with financial anxiety. Can you walk through some of those

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Speaker 1: and maybe explain how they can be like short term

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Speaker 1: fixes really and they're not actually tackling the root or

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Speaker 1: the problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So a lot of us tend to fall into

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Speaker 3: one of two things when we're dealing with chronic financial anxiety.

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Speaker 3: We either tend toward perfectionism, and the way that that

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Speaker 3: looks in the financial space is consuming a lot of content,

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Speaker 3: or we tend towards procrastination, which we're all familiar with,

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Speaker 3: which is just putting off dealing with our money stuff.

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Speaker 3: And so when we think about perfectionism, you might go, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'd actually choose that one when it comes to money,

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Speaker 3: But I often see perfectionism and procrastination being tied together,

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Speaker 3: where people are scared to start something until they know

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Speaker 3: how to do it exactly right, right right. So we

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Speaker 3: all know those people.

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Speaker 1: Who are it just sounds better when you call it

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Speaker 1: perfectionism from doing the thing, yeah, A perfecting your plans.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we might have the set up a session.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. It's it's really interesting because of the two. You're

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Speaker 3: bull spot on that we tend to reward perfectionism a

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Speaker 3: lot more than we reward procrastination. So for somebody who's like,

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited to start investing this year, but what

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Speaker 3: they end up doing is checking out books and listening

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Speaker 3: to podcasts and maybe hiring financial advisors, but not actually

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Speaker 3: following through because they want to do it just right.

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Speaker 3: We know the long term negative consequences of being out

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Speaker 3: of the market for an additional year, right, So the

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Speaker 3: short term is I'm going to learn everything, so I

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Speaker 3: do this right, which sounds like okay ish, but the

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Speaker 3: long term isn't that great. And then with the procrastination.

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Speaker 3: None of us really like feeling uncomfortable, So it's a

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Speaker 3: great way to put off feeling uncomfortable if dealing with

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Speaker 3: money makes you feel awkward or uncomfortable. So just going

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to do it, not a big deal,

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Speaker 3: But then over time it can become a bit problematic.

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Speaker 2: You're just yeah, you're saying not today, and maybe never

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Speaker 2: is what actually ends up happening. Well, I mean one

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Speaker 2: of the other things. I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 2: think that just by making more money, right, like having

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Speaker 2: more cash in hand than a lot of times, that

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Speaker 2: that can that might be able to solve their problems.

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Speaker 1: But that's just got that inheritance financial anxiety.

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Speaker 3: But that's not the case, right, It's not the case.

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Speaker 3: It is true. I think we're all in agreement that

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Speaker 3: having more money generally does help to provide that additional

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Speaker 3: sense of security, and if we don't know how to

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Speaker 3: manage it in a way that feels good for us

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Speaker 3: and is actually sustainable. We've all heard those horror stories

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Speaker 3: of somebody who gets an inheritance or wins the lotto

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Speaker 3: or gets a huge settlement who goes through it in

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Speaker 3: a year, And it's oftentimes not that they're like, yes,

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Speaker 3: I want to spend all this money and have nothing

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Speaker 3: left to show for it. But it can sometimes be

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Speaker 3: this self sabotaged behavior of money makes me anxious, and

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Speaker 3: so a great thing to do is just to not

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Speaker 3: have it. And it's never that cut and dry. I

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Speaker 3: have this money. Money makes me uncomfortable, so I'm going

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Speaker 3: to spend it all. It's much more subtle over time

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Speaker 3: that can be really harmful when we're dealing with if

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Speaker 3: I have more money, everything will be better.

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 1: So, well, how can we dial down money anxiety when

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Speaker 1: it surfaces that maybe is for someone who is consistently

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Speaker 1: dealing with it, like some people might need to see

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Speaker 1: a professional and that would be helpful. Yeah, but what

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Speaker 1: are some skills that maybe we can develop on our

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Speaker 1: own too that can help us handle anxiety a little

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Speaker 1: bit differently and just kind of cope better as individuals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for the perfectionist, I often like to think about

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Speaker 3: what is your good enough in order for you to

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Speaker 3: take action? So going back to this example of investing

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Speaker 3: for retirement, how much is good enough for you to

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Speaker 3: know to start investing sooner than later? And maybe you're like, uh,

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Speaker 3: I need to feel like seventy five percent good with

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Speaker 3: the information that I have in order to start investing.

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Speaker 3: But if you wait until you get to that one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent, it's going to be really really challenging. Same

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Speaker 3: thing if you're working towards beefing up an emergency fund.

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Speaker 3: Instead of saying, if you're a perfectionist, okay, I know

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Speaker 3: I need six to nine months. Maybe you start with

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Speaker 3: that four hundred and one dollars, right, and then you're

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Speaker 3: a dollar more than most Americans have saved. And what

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Speaker 3: we are doing there is we're breaking down these goals

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Speaker 3: into smaller, more tangible steps, and we know that that

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Speaker 3: helps with this positive feedback loop. If I can save

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Speaker 3: four hundred and one dollars, I can probably save another

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Speaker 3: four hundred and one dollars, or I have the capacity

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Speaker 3: to save more money, and we can start to kind

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Speaker 3: of build on that and then what that also does

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Speaker 3: is it tells that financial anxiety that kicks up and says, hey,

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Speaker 3: you don't know what you're doing with money, you better

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Speaker 3: just quit. Actually, I have an idea of what I'm

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Speaker 3: doing with money, and I know how to follow through

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Speaker 3: on it. So it helps to kind of build that muscle,

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Speaker 3: if you will, of financial self esteem. And then on

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Speaker 3: the other hand, with procrastination, oftentimes, I'm a huge, huge

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Speaker 3: fan of adding in deadlines to help with procrastination. So

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Speaker 3: a great example of this is, you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: going to just sit down and watch one Netflix show

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Speaker 3: and then you know, instead of twenty minutes going by,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, two and a half hours have

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Speaker 3: gone by. We want to give ourselves a little timer.

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Speaker 3: So actually setting that timer for twenty minutes, So if

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Speaker 3: you're super stressed looking at you, we're recording this around

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Speaker 3: tax season, if you're super stressed gathering all your documents

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Speaker 3: and uploading them for your accountant, maybe you can say,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to watch a show, set a timer for

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Speaker 3: twenty minutes, and then after that twenty minutes, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to organize my paperwork for forty five minutes, and again,

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Speaker 3: set a timer, and there's something about that time limited element,

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Speaker 3: and we can dial that amount of time down too.

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Speaker 3: But just saying I'm just going to work on this

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Speaker 3: for twenty minutes, I'm just going to work on this

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Speaker 3: for forty minutes, it seems so much more doable than

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Speaker 3: I'm going to get everything together that I need in

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Speaker 3: order to do this task. So having some outside param

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Speaker 3: or as we call in the therapy where some scaffolding

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Speaker 3: can be really helpful. And I'm also a huge fan

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Speaker 3: of body doubling, both for perfectionism and for procrastination, so

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Speaker 3: that means literally doing one of these tasks with a

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Speaker 3: friend with your partner. I'm a huge fan of focus

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Speaker 3: mate that pairs you with somebody else and you can

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Speaker 3: work on different tasks for twenty five, fifty or seventy

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Speaker 3: five minutes. And no I'm not sponsored by them, but

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Speaker 3: it partners you up with them in the zoom room

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Speaker 3: and you basically say, hey, for the next fifty minutes,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to work on organizing my tax paperwork, and

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Speaker 3: the person on the other side says, cool, I'm working

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Speaker 3: on an outline for my book, and you put your

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Speaker 3: heads down and get to work. So those are some tips.

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Speaker 2: What was the name of that site again.

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Speaker 3: It's called focus mate M eighteen focus Mate.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Body doubling not what it sounds like

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Speaker 2: on the surface.

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Speaker 3: No, I know, I know, I know. Or stun doubling right, Ye,

436
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 3: you're not quite as exciting. No, top gun action.

437
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 2: This is so good. Yeah. And whether it's breaking these

438
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: things down into smaller steps or like we were talking

439
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 2: about earlier, it's sometimes we think that making more money,

440
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 2: that that's the solution. But we're going to talk with

441
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 2: you some more and we're gonna specifically talk about just

442
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,479
Speaker 2: ways to improve our overall our general financial wellness. But

443
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 2: oftentimes it's not done in the way that you might think.

444
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: We will get to all of that right after this.

445
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 2: All right, we're back.

446
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 1: We're still talking about solutions for money anxiety with experts

447
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: and financial therapists Lindsay, Brian Podvin and and Lindsay Matt

448
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: and I. We talk a lot about the lack of

449
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 1: financial knowledge that Americans have. You know, you talked about

450
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 1: that a little bit. Most of us didn't learn much

451
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: from our parents, or we learned bad habits when it

452
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 1: comes to how we handle money from our parents. We

453
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: didn't learn anything in high school. You know, that's becoming

454
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: starting to become more of a thing. Fortunately is financial

455
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: literary class. Literacy classes in high school. But I agree

456
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: with you. But you say that financial literacy isn't enough

457
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: and that knowledge doesn't equal transformation. What do you mean

458
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: by that? And what else is necessary?

459
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 3: We all know to talk about something not money related,

460
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 3: what we should be doing to get quote unquote good sleep. Right,

461
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: most of us know we shouldn't be watching TV right

462
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 3: before bed. We shouldn't be drinking a bunch of coffee.

463
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: We should put on some pgs and not be scrolling

464
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: on our phones and getting all activated. But the reality

465
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 3: is most of us still hop into our beds with

466
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 3: our phone in our hands and scroll away until our

467
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 3: eyelids get heavy and we fall asleep. We know that

468
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 3: that's not great for us. So having somebody else say, hey,

469
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: don't forget, you're not supposed to have blue light exposure,

470
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to have coffee before bed, isn't going

471
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: to make a big difference because that's knowledge. So when

472
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: we're talking about something like sleep hygiene, like going to

473
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: bed and getting good, regular quality sleep, having more information

474
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily lead to transformation. Similarly, financial literacy is great.

475
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 3: We do need that information, and information alone is not

476
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: enough to incite behavior change. Right, So, plenty of people know, oh,

477
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: I should be spending less money than I earn every month,

478
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: I should be starting a retirement fund, I should potentially

479
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 3: open up a five point twenty nine for my kiddo.

480
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: A lot of people are really good at regurgitating the

481
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: things that they think they're supposed to be doing, but

482
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 3: not a lot of us are very good at actually

483
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 3: following through. And so when we take that next step

484
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 3: from information into transformation, in my mind, this is where

485
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 3: we get into the world of financial wellness, which is

486
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: the ability to not just understand the financial concepts, financial knowledge,

487
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: financial literacy, but to actually learn how to make them

488
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: mean something to you so that you can sustain them

489
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: for the long term. So, to me, financial wellness is

490
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: understanding what's going on financially, but also creating a financial

491
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 3: plan that is sustainable for you, aligned with your values,

492
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 3: and making sure that it's not spiking your anxiety through

493
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: the roof when you're engaging with your money.

494
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: Okay, then let's talk about practical things that we should do.

495
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: What stuff should we take if we're looking to improve

496
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: our overall financial wellness.

497
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where it's going to be a little tricky,

498
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: because I know, let me just preface that most of

499
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: us know like the handful of things we should be

500
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 3: doing with our money in terms of having an emergency fund,

501
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: paying down high interest debt, making sure that we have

502
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: a spending plan that works for us, and thinking forward

503
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 3: to some of those big picture goals, be it buying

504
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: a new car or saving for retirement. However, what we

505
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 3: know is that do this than this, than this does

506
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: not actually work for all of us. So even though

507
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: let's take the debt snowball versus the debt avalanche, even

508
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 3: though we know the debt avalanche works better from a

509
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 3: financial perspective, we know that the debt snowball tends to

510
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: work better from a psychological perspective because it tends to

511
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: build momentum. So I like to keep that in mind

512
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: when I'm working with my clients. If they have a

513
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 3: ton of credit card debt and all so don't have

514
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 3: an emergency fund, A lot of us would be like, oh,

515
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 3: you need an emergency fund. But if my client is saying,

516
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 3: when I fall asleep thinking about that high credit card debt.

517
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 3: It stresses me out, I get poor sleep, I'm worried

518
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 3: about it all day. Then we may focus on the

519
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,719
Speaker 3: credit card debt first. So for me, this is about

520
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: tailoring things to work for the person rather than tailoring

521
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: things to work for the what's right on paper financially,

522
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: And this can be really hard right to go, Oh well,

523
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 3: everybody in the personal finance space says that this is

524
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: step one, but I really am just struggling with step

525
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 3: five here. I need to put my energy towards step five.

526
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 3: Then me, as a financial therapist, I'm going to say

527
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: I'd rather have you do step five than no steps

528
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 3: at all. So that's kind of the way that I

529
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 3: look at it. So financial wellness gets to be defined

530
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: differently in terms of what people need to do. Usually

531
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 3: I'm trying to figure out what their emotional relationship with

532
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: money is in case that's getting in the way. So,

533
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 3: for example, if financial anxiety is getting in the way

534
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: of them looking at money, or if they have financial trauma,

535
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: do we have to process that before they can engage

536
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: with their money. And usually what I'm doing is literally

537
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 3: asking them how different financial interactions make them feel. So

538
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: it could be how does it feel when you log

539
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 3: into your credit card account and go to pay down

540
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 3: a lot of debt versus how does it feel to

541
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 3: send in your taxes versus what does it feel like

542
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 3: to make a student loan payment? And what we're starting

543
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: to do is figure out what are the patterns related

544
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: to each of these things, and how are they helpful

545
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 3: or harmful? And what can we do if they are

546
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 3: harmful to dial them down enough so we can take

547
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: meaningful action towards change.

548
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: So the way you're talking about that, it kind of

549
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: makes me think of personality types because maybe maybe like

550
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: an engineer really important, Yeah, the debt avalanche, You know,

551
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: they might be thinking so analytically that that's the best

552
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: way for them to go about tackling their debt. But

553
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: for someone who's a little more of a free spirit,

554
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: they might need that psychological boost right that the snowball

555
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: method provides. So do you think that like knowing your

556
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: personality type is like a part of kind of figuring

557
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: out your money story and then a part of attacking

558
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: and getting better with personal finances. Like you have like

559
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: a financial archetype quiz on your site, which I thought

560
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: was really interesting, And so, yeah, talk to us about

561
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 1: the importance of knowing your money personality.

562
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, your financial archetype definitely helps to provide some insight

563
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: as to why we do what we do. And the

564
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: financial archetype is a modification of the money scripts that

565
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 3: was developed by a group of financial therapy researchers. But

566
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: coming I spent four and a half years in psychiatric research,

567
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: so I always keep my eyes and my ears open

568
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 3: when I find data like this. And it's not that

569
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: there's anything inherently wrong with that particular data set, It's

570
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 3: just that that data set wasn't particularly diverse or representative

571
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: of the US population. So for me, I kind of

572
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 3: took it with a grain of salt. And as a

573
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 3: social worker, we are trained to see people from their

574
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: strengths first rather than to say what's wrong with this person?

575
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: So I took some of that information, plus the information

576
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 3: that I was seeing in my clients, to go, what

577
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: are some of the strengths that each of these people

578
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: brings into their relationship with money. And so for some

579
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 3: people who may be more of your blissfully ignorant type,

580
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: they don't want to look at money, they don't want

581
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 3: to think about money. A lot of us would be like, ah,

582
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: that's bad. You have to look at your money, you

583
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: have to think about money. But what we often find

584
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: is that those are the people who tend to be

585
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: more likely to go into helping and healing field. So

586
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 3: we don't necessarily want to diminish that part of why

587
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: they do what they do, but instead we want to

588
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: think about how can we potentially dial down the need

589
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: to give so much of their time and their energy

590
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: without compensation. For example, teachers tend to be the ones

591
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 3: who are like also volunteering for PTA meetings and also

592
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: setting up the school dances. So maybe thinking, you know what,

593
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: you're compensated in the way that you are, and maybe

594
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: that's enough and you can say no or you can

595
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: give back in a different way. So just thinking a

596
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: little bit more holistically a about the whole person when

597
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: we're thinking about our relationship with money.

598
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, your personality is incredibly important. Your

599
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: emotions are also really important because on one hand, I

600
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: feel like they can lead us to unhealthy behaviors, right

601
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: like if oh yeah, like erratic spending for instance, Like

602
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: that's the negative side of things. But you also talk

603
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: about how like you do not want us to take

604
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: emotions completely out of the equation. Going back to that

605
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: personality archetype, I fill that out and I am the

606
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: money admirer, which which.

607
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: I got toomstake prepper myself.

608
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're on that side of the spectrum. But

609
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: one of the strengths that was listened out there was

610
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: just the ability to be objective. Yeah, it comes to

611
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: some of your money decisions. So yeah, I guess how

612
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: do you find that balance between being objective and not

613
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: letting your emotions run the show? But at the same time,

614
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: you know, writing them, you want to attend to your

615
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: emotions a little bit, and there are certain strengths and

616
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: certain abilities that you can sort of glean and harvest

617
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: from your emotions as well. I'd love to hear you

618
00:30:59,280 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: talk about.

619
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 3: That absolutely so because I specialized in anxiety, I'm going

620
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: to use that as an example quite a bit. But

621
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: when somebody's saying, like, oh my gosh, I'm just so

622
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 3: anxious that I'll never be able to retire, I often

623
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: ask them, well, what is it that's underneath that anxiety?

624
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: What is that anxiety trying to tell you? Because oftentimes

625
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: that emotion is trying to signal to us that something's

626
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: worth looking at. And with that client, let's say they're

627
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 3: so worried about retirement. Once we dig under that, they

628
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 3: might say, you know, my parent worked their entire life.

629
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: They never took a sick day. They kept saying like, oh,

630
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: that's for me in retirement. And once they were retired,

631
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: we hear these stories sadly all the time. They became

632
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 3: very ill and weren't able to do the things that

633
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: they wanted to do. So then we go, oh, okay,

634
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 3: so some of this anxiety about retiring is potentially related

635
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 3: to this fact that you had a parent who was

636
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 3: not well enough to really enjoy their retirement. So maybe

637
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: then we go, okay, how can we make sure that

638
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 3: you're enjoying your life now and saving up for your

639
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: future so you don't feel like you're in that anxious spiral.

640
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 3: So usually if somebody's experiencing something, oh, I feel so

641
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: guilty about the shopping spreed that I went on. Okay, well,

642
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: what's that guilt trying to tell you? And what are

643
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: some of the things that you were purchasing and what

644
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: was going on in the moment you went on that

645
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: shopping spreed that you were potentially trying to soothe with shopping.

646
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: So we can use those emotions as little clues about

647
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 3: why we do what we do. And so when it

648
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: comes to taking action in alignment with emotions that are

649
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 3: neutral or positive, we also want to bring those into

650
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: the fold. So if you're working on paying down credit

651
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: card debt, instead of just telling yourself like, I'm so

652
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 3: stupid for getting into credit card debt in the first place,

653
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 3: maybe we say, you know what, I put an extra

654
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: hundred dollars toward that credit card payment. That feels really good,

655
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: and I'm really proud of that movement. So just some

656
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 3: of those kind of loving reframes towards ourself can also

657
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: be hopeful.

658
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: Okay, loving reframes is that how we get rid of shame?

659
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: Because I love it, Matt and I feel the same way.

660
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: We want to take shame out of personal finance. There's

661
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: a lot of everybody's made mistakes in the past, and

662
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: you're right, there are a lot of people in the

663
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: personal finance space who their initial go to if you

664
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: tell them about the mistakes you've made is to be like, yeah,

665
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: you're an idiot, how could you do that? And we

666
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: all know people like that who instead of empowering and

667
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: helping and pushing people in the right direction. They're just

668
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, really kind of making them feel worse about

669
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: the decision or the mistake they made. So how can

670
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: we as individuals kind of tamp down the shame we

671
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: feel so that we can make more progress, because often

672
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: that shame is kind of like hovering over us and

673
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: it actually prevents us from making the progress we want

674
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: to make.

675
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Joel, I appreciate you bringing this piece up. So

676
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 3: first I just want to do a quick differentiation between

677
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: guilt and shame because oftentimes we use those words interchangeably,

678
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 3: but they're different. And then when it comes to money shame,

679
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: you'll see why it's important. So guilt is an external

680
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: fear I did something bad, I made a mistake, where

681
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: a shame is where we internalize that guilt. I am bad,

682
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: I am the mistake. And so when it comes to money,

683
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 3: we hear that financial shame show up as I'm bad

684
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 3: with money, or I'll just never get it, or money

685
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 3: isn't for people like me, and those types of statements

686
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: start to then make it seem like it's about a

687
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 3: personal character flaw versus If we do guilt and we

688
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: kind of push it out away from us, and we say, hey,

689
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 3: I never had the opportunity to learn about money. That's

690
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: something I have the capacity to do. What are the

691
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: things that I can do to start taking ownership of it?

692
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 3: That really can be super helpful in making that difference.

693
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 3: So when it comes to money shame, we know that

694
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: shame isn't a great motivator for change. Telling somebody either

695
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: bad or wrong or dumb isn't us a great way

696
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 3: to help people change. But we know that having a

697
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: few things can help. So I'll lean on Prenee Brown,

698
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: who's a social work research sure that a lot of

699
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: us know out of Texas, and she has kind of

700
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: these four things that she says help with shame. And

701
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: I think that we can take these things and apply

702
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: them to our finances. So one is just literally saying

703
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: out loud what it is, what's going on and what

704
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 3: you're feeling, So naming that sensation. I'm embarrassed that I

705
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: didn't pay my rent on time, or I'm frustrated that

706
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: the negotiation for my raise didn't go very well, so

707
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: naming it. The other thing that's super helpful in dialing

708
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: down shame is external social support or validation. So that's

709
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 3: where online communities can be really helpful. Support groups can

710
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: be helpful. Talking to friends, talking to family, and just

711
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: having somebody say yeah, I've been there, or oh, that

712
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 3: must be really hard can help dial down shame. Education

713
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: is the other thing that can help dial down shame,

714
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: which is super interesting when it comes to financial stuff,

715
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: because as I mentioned earlier, we don't want to get

716
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: to that spiral where all we're doing is learning without implay.

717
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: So I would add on an asterisk of like education

718
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: to the point of good enough. And then the last

719
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: thing that can help with shame is making meaning of

720
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: the mistake. And again we want to use the word

721
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: mistake instead of I am bad with money. We want

722
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 3: to say, oh, I made a mistake with money and

723
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 3: making meaning of that mistake. Oh, you know what, I

724
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 3: didn't pay my rent on time because groceries are bananas

725
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 3: expensive right now or eggs expensive right now? Say yeah, exactly,

726
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: and you know it's a bummer, but things just happened

727
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 3: too much. And what did I learn? I learned that

728
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 3: potentially I need to check in on the foods I'm

729
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,479
Speaker 3: actually eating and not overshop and contribute to food waste

730
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 3: in my household, and that may help me move the

731
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 3: needle so that I can pay rent on time next time.

732
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 3: So those are the four things that can help with shame.

733
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not who you are, but it is about

734
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: what you did right, whether whether it's something you did

735
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: once or whether this is a habit that you maybe

736
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 2: keep going back to. And one of the things you mentioned,

737
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: I guess the second one you mentioned there those forms

738
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: of external support, I mean essentially us community, right, Like,

739
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,959
Speaker 2: this is about finding your people, and you talk about

740
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: this when it comes to just general overall financial wellness.

741
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 2: How to money Facebook group, that's a place that we're

742
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: really fond of. But why is a community of like

743
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: minded folks so helpful for individuals? And you know, how

744
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: do you suggest for folks to find their own tribe

745
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: if they're looking for maybe something beyond an online group.

746
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: How would you recommend for folks to go about that?

747
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 3: So, to answer your first question, community is important because

748
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 3: humans are social beings. Even for the introverts among us,

749
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 3: we know that having community support matters. One of the

750
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: things that we know as humans we need for survival

751
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: is to feel like we belong. So having community of

752
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: people who share either similar demographics or psychographics or goals

753
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 3: with us can help support us as we navigate through

754
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 3: the inevitable mistakes that we will make in relationship to

755
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 3: our money. And in terms of finding communities, I do

756
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: love online communities, but I so agree that it is

757
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: helpful to take things off of the Internet. And I've

758
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 3: had a front row seat to see a lot of

759
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: different ways that people can do that given my line

760
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: of work. So some ways that some of my folks

761
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: have taken the community thing and really put it into

762
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 3: real life is a money book club. So in my community,

763
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 3: there's a local money book club meet up where each

764
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,959
Speaker 3: month they read a different money book and they chat

765
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: about it and they talk about what they liked, what

766
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 3: they didn't. I've had other folks who have an investing club,

767
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 3: and this is not over going in and buying crypto

768
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 3: and trading crypto. They more or less like kind of

769
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: play with investing. So they're invested in like your standard

770
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: no load index funds, but what they'll do is kind

771
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 3: of follow a stock for a month and see what happens,

772
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: just to kind of scratch that curiosity and be a

773
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: bit more engaged in the market. And then other kind

774
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: of Muny any adjacent ones to take offline are all

775
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 3: of your no buy Facebook groups if you can take

776
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 3: them on the offline, take on swap meets offline. A

777
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: lot of my friends have kiddos, and as you guys know,

778
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: with kiddos, they tend to grow like crazy. So I've

779
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: seen friends of mine who will be like, Okay, I've

780
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: got a bunch of one year old clothes. Let's all

781
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: go over to our friend who just had a newborn,

782
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: bring them those clothes over there, and kind of just

783
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: provide some space for that new family while talking about yes, clothes,

784
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: but also kind of providing some financial minded support in

785
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: that way.

786
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. I love it, and I do think

787
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: that the way that we can find community online is

788
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: really incredible. And for someone who wants to find their

789
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: tribe to help them with money questions they have or

790
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: with encouragement, finding people online is one part of the puzzle,

791
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: but it can't be the whole thing. And I think

792
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: you have to find people locally where you are who

793
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: share some of those yeah, similar goals and desires as well.

794
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: So we've got a few more questions we want to

795
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: get to with you. We want to talk about self care,

796
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: and we want to talk about relationships like relationship dynamics

797
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: and money and how we can make those better. We'll

798
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: get to those questions right after this.

799
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: All right, we are back from the break and again

800
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: we're talking with financial therapist Lindsay Brian Podvin talking about

801
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: financial wellness. We're talking about money anxiety, and Lindsay, let's

802
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 2: talk about self care for a second here, because you know,

803
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: we think that self care it's important, right, but it's

804
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: also gone off the rails a little bit. You recently

805
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 2: made a video about financial self care and how it

806
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: is that someone can go about doing some of that

807
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: on the cheap. Can you share a few of your favorites?

808
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I again I get this front row seat

809
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: to see different ways people practice financial self care. So

810
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: for me, I really think about financial self care is

811
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: the ways that you can take care of yourself physically, till,

812
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 3: emotionally and spiritually that may intersect with your finances, right,

813
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: And we know that oftentimes to practice financial self care

814
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 3: it might cost a little bit of money or a

815
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 3: little bit of time, So we want to make sure

816
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: we carve out that time. So the video you're referring to,

817
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 3: I did thirty seven different ways that you can practice

818
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: financial self care. And the reason that I shared that

819
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: was that it's not always you know, journaling under the

820
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: moon with candlelight all of your money manifestations, though it

821
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: can be, but it can also be. I automated a

822
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: savings account goal to have a little bit of money

823
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 3: move for my checking into a high savings account every

824
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 3: single month, so when the holidays were all around, I

825
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 3: have money available, and that's practicing financial self care for

826
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 3: me because I love gift giving and I also don't

827
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: like to be stressed around the holidays, right, So that

828
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: could be an example of financial self care. So there

829
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: are a bunch of different ways that you can practice

830
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 3: that I shared at the top of this episode that

831
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 3: for me, practicing literal self care is a part of

832
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 3: my financial self care. If I go get a massage

833
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: or a facial or buy new jewelry, as long as

834
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: it's a part of that little fun money bucket, I

835
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: feel like that helps me to kind of check that

836
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 3: box off. And recently, you know, now that I'm in

837
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: my mid to late thirties, how old am I? What

838
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 3: is time? After the pandemic, I'm like, I don't know

839
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: my partner and I, even though we're super comfy with

840
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: our money, we have instituted meeting with a financial planner

841
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: once a year just to kind of double check our

842
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: teas are crossed and our eyes are dotted and we're

843
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 3: on the right tracks of Sometimes having that little external

844
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 3: eyes on advice can be.

845
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 2: Helpful, very cool. Yeah, I think it's important to reframe

846
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: it in that way, right, Like these are just oftentimes

847
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 2: you hear self care and you think of splurging, and

848
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: you think of the wasting money. Yeah, but what we're

849
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 2: talking about here are habits, and you talked about this too,

850
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: just how these are things that are repeatable, These are

851
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: healthy behaviors that will ultimately lead to in this case,

852
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 2: financial success. Yes, well, let's.

853
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: Talk about relationships too, because I'm sure as a financial

854
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: therapist you never get people coming in and talking about

855
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: how they aren't able to communicate with their partner about money. Right,

856
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: that's nobody's ever sent that to you.

857
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 3: Right, I don't know what you're talking about.

858
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, but of course we know from the stats

859
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: that fighting about money is one of the leading causes

860
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: of separation of the force of issues in a relationship.

861
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, what are you telling people? What tips do

862
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: you have for how couples can talk about money more effectively.

863
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 3: So the flip side of couples who argue about money separate,

864
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: which is true, is that couples who talk about money

865
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 3: regularly report being happier than those that don't. So I

866
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: usually invite my clients into that frame of reference because

867
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 3: if they have associated talking about money with fighting about money,

868
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: of course it's going to be difficult. So I have

869
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: a few guidelines that I like to share with couples

870
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: who are trying to be more effective in communicating about

871
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 3: money and aligning their financial goals with one another. So

872
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: one is making sure you have carved out time to

873
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: have your money date, which means no drive buys. And

874
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 3: what I mean drive by, I mean no walking out

875
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: the door and being like, hey, honey, by the way,

876
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: I maxed out the credit card, talk to you tonight,

877
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: Like that is not a good way to effectively communicate

878
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 3: with your partner that you want to talk about the

879
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 3: credit card. Instead, it would be like when you're sitting

880
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: down to dinner saying, Hey, this Sunday, after we go

881
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 3: for our hike, I want to sit down and look

882
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: at our finances specifically, I'm really curious with how high

883
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: our credit card bill has gotten. So giving them a

884
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 3: heads up to understand what you want to talk about,

885
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: making it neutral. Instead of saying you wrecked up the

886
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 3: credit card, I want to talk about what you did

887
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: to overspend. You're saying, what can we do? I want

888
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 3: us to look at this together. You're giving them some

889
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 3: time to emotionally and mentally prepare for it. You're carving

890
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 3: out that time in space, and then during that time

891
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: where you're talking about that specific thing, acknowledge your part. Hey,

892
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 3: you know, I realized recently I've been grabbing for the

893
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 3: credit card more frequently than the debit card too. I

894
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: own my stuff. But also being cognizant of when is

895
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 3: it time to slow down that money conversation versus when

896
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 3: is it time to stop altogether? Meaning knowing your orange

897
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: and your red flags. For me, if I'm talking, if

898
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 3: I'm having a money date with my partner, orange flags

899
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: for me is that I'm getting a little snappy, a

900
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: little bit short with my answers. That's a cue that

901
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, I'm hitting that orange flag.

902
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 3: I need five, And that could literally be I'm going

903
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: to go grab a glass of water. I'm going to

904
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: let the dog out, whatever it may be. But a

905
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 3: red flag is going to be when you're too heated

906
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 3: to continue in that conversation without causing harm. So for me,

907
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 3: that's when I completely shut down. That's when my short

908
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: answers have gone to non existent. I know I've hit

909
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: red flag territory and we have to hit pause and

910
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 3: come back at a different time. Notice how I say

911
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 3: hit pause and don't ever come back. I'm saying hit pause.

912
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: I'm not saying stop forever. So saying you know what,

913
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 3: I'm maxed out today. I'm really glad we're having this conversation,

914
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 3: but I'm feeling myself really kind of heightened emotionally right now.

915
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 3: Let's let's put a pin in it. We can come

916
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 3: back to it tomorrow, or we can come back to

917
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 3: it next week, whatever it may be. So those are

918
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 3: a few things. Is making sure that you're carving out

919
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 3: the time to talk about it, owning your part in it,

920
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: acknowledging your orange and red flags. And one thing about

921
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 3: having money dates is if you have them at a

922
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: regular cadence, you don't have to feel like you have

923
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 3: to do everything all at once, so you can say, look,

924
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: I just want to talk about taxes next time, or

925
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 3: I just want to talk about our five twenty nine

926
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 3: savings planner, I want to talk about where we're going

927
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 3: on vacation next year. So making sure that you're thinking

928
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: through those things. And I don't know if that was

929
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 3: you joeler Matt, Who's like, hmm ok, vacation okay. But

930
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: the other thing is thinking about talking about money as

931
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 3: a way to strengthen your relationship. So maybe talking about

932
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: taxes isn't like super fun and exciting, but maybe you

933
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 3: get the mmm when we're talking about vacations. And so

934
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 3: when we think about what would it be like to

935
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 3: be on that vacation, what are the things that we

936
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 3: want to do, What are the values that are important

937
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: to us that we will have met when we take

938
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 3: that trip, that also helps to add meaning to that

939
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 3: specific financial goal.

940
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: I feel like so much of what you're talking about

941
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: here too, So many the way you use you the

942
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: ways you framed it are about being a team, yeah,

943
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: and not pinning everything on one person, but also like

944
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about it as like you guys against something

945
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: else fighting to achieve something, as opposed to like you

946
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: and me against each other, and so much of that

947
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: framing I think is going to have a massive impact

948
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: on Yeah, the amount you're able to accomplish as a team.

949
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, such a good point, because that's the thing.

950
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 3: I think. We come into these money conversations thinking I'm

951
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 3: right and you're wrong or whatever versus. The goal is

952
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 3: to make sure that we have enough money to do

953
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 3: the things that we want to do, so we can

954
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: practice financial self care and have a healthy relationship with money,

955
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: because money is that tool that affords us the ability

956
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: to do the other things that we want to do.

957
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: So if we're on the same team, if we're collaborating

958
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 3: towards that goal, then it is like encouraging one another

959
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 3: and cheering each other on and being duo, like a

960
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 3: duo as you work towards this goal. So it's so

961
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 3: so important to make sure you're talking about it and

962
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: you're you're on the same page.

963
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think finding some balance in those conversations

964
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: as well too. I mean, you know you mentioned vacation,

965
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: you're mentioning taxes. If if all you do is talk

966
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 2: about the taxes side of things, right, if you're only

967
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: talking about your debt and how underwater y'all are. If

968
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: you're only talking about your credit card statements and how

969
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: they're just like five six, seven, eight pages long, now,

970
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: that's going to be difficult to get the get your

971
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: partner excited. On the contrary, if you're only talking about

972
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: the things that you want to achieve, I guess all

973
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 2: the fun things. I think there can be a lack

974
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 2: of where the rubber meets the road when it comes

975
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 2: to those conversations and it's like, well that's that sounds

976
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: great and all, but how do we actually get there?

977
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: It takes that combination of both, and that's what you're

978
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: talking about here. So last question, you know, again, the

979
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 2: financial therapy industry, it seems like it's still in its

980
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: infancy and we talk through a lot of tips. You've

981
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: given a lot of great information here where folks can

982
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 2: kind of take that information and just enact it within

983
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: their own lives. But how can folks find an actual

984
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 2: financial therapist if that's what they're looking for.

985
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 3: So a great way to find a financial therapist is

986
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 3: obviously you can type in financial therapists plus my state.

987
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 3: You know, Google will do it's magic there. The Financial

988
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: Therapy Association has a directory of financial therapists. But the

989
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: asterisk I will include here is that anybody can be

990
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 3: a member of the Financial Therapy Association, So some people

991
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 3: are financial planners who don't necessarily have a certificate in

992
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 3: financial therapy. But at least you're narrowing in on the

993
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 3: types of people who are interested in practicing holistic financial planning.

994
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 3: So you know, as I said, hopefully more and more

995
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 3: people will be on that directory as time goes on,

996
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 3: But for now, you can turn to Google, you can

997
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 3: turn to the Financial Therapy Association directory to try and

998
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 3: find somebody, and a lot of financial planners do have

999
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: that holistic view, so you can can read through some

1000
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 3: of those bios and see if there might be somebody

1001
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 3: who kind of fits the bill.

1002
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Lindsey, this has been such an awesome conversation. Thank

1003
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners

1004
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: find out more about you and what you're up to.

1005
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 3: My business is called Mind Money Balance. My website, podcast, YouTube,

1006
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 3: Instagram are all of the same names, so you can

1007
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 3: come chat with me in any of those places, And

1008
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 3: as Joel and Matt mentioned, my quiz is free. It's

1009
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 3: Mindmneybalance dot com, slash quiz if you want to learn

1010
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 3: more about your financial archetype.

1011
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, we will make sure to point folks

1012
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: to all of those different links. Lindsay, thank you for

1013
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: joining us today.

1014
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: Thank you all right, Matt, what a great conversation. And

1015
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, you and I we try not to just

1016
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: talk about the nuts and bolts of money. I'll just

1017
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 1: be over here making the weird noises as you do. Yeah,

1018
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: it does get weird sometimes, but you know, you and

1019
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: I were often talking about nuts and bolts. We try

1020
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: to incorporate other elements. We try to talk about psychology

1021
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: and motivation, and we try to make sure that we're

1022
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: running the full game. But this is a place where

1023
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,959
Speaker 1: we're really out of our depths, and so I'm glad

1024
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: we were able to bring Lindsay on to discuss some

1025
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: of the finer points of dealing with financial anxiety and

1026
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 1: handling money better from an emotional standpoint. What what was

1027
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: your big takeaway from this conversation.

1028
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, since tomorrow is Valentine's Day, Happy v Day

1029
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: to everyone out there, I'm going to focus on I

1030
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: guess maybe the relationals. Like towards the end of the conversation,

1031
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: they were talking about relationships, and specifically she was talking

1032
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: about money dates and the way that you make those

1033
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: successful is that you carve out the time on your

1034
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: calendar to make sure that that is something that is

1035
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: going to happen. I look back on my life and

1036
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 2: the most some of the most successful things that I've

1037
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 2: ever been able to accomplish is because I scheduled it,

1038
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: like literally, because it was on the calendar. Whether it

1039
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 2: was something that was somewhat passive and more automated aka

1040
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 2: repeat every week, or whether it was just looking ahead

1041
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: and saying, hey, let's talk about this once this date

1042
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 2: rolls around. And so it just takes being intentional. And

1043
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 2: I like what she said, what Lindsay was saying about,

1044
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: like money conversations can't buy this can't be this drive

1045
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: by thing. It can't be this thing where you're just like, oh, hey,

1046
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: by the way, we're over our limit on our twenty

1047
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: thousand dollars card. Let's talk about that. Sometime it takes

1048
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: being intentional, getting a date on the calendar, allowing the

1049
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 2: other partner to have some time to process, oh, hey,

1050
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: we are going to talk about money, not to get

1051
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: anxious about it, but for them to realize oh okay, cool,

1052
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: Let's let's make sure we've got the right information, the

1053
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: right data, glass of wine, maybe crack open a nice beer,

1054
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 2: that kind of thing to make it fun as well.

1055
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're a single person and if it's

1056
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: on your calendar, it's more likely to happen. And if

1057
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,760
Speaker 1: you are a couple and it's on your shared calendar,

1058
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: is way more likely to But if you're just hey,

1059
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: maybe this weekend sometime, let's let's get around to it,

1060
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: probably not gonna happen because there's other steff that's going

1061
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: to take the place. So I like setting it in

1062
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: stone somewhere on your calendar.

1063
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: I think that's being intentional.

1064
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 3: Man.

1065
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so I think about you that. My

1066
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: big takeaway was when she said what is your good enough?

1067
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: And I was like, dang, that's good. Yeah, that's really

1068
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: because I think there's so many times in life where

1069
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: we say like, yeah, I want to do that, and

1070
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: this happens a lot, I would say, with people who

1071
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: want to invest in real estate and they are saying,

1072
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: but I gotta know every single this and or butt,

1073
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: and until I get to that point like there's no

1074
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: way I can jump into this and at some point

1075
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: you have to say, all right, I've done my due diligence.

1076
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: You have to do your due diligence, right, you have

1077
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 1: to read a book, you have to kind of know

1078
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: what you're doing. You have to crunch numbers. But at

1079
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: some point, like they're a certain.

1080
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: Point, you got to put an offer in on the

1081
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: house and you just got to own that second property.

1082
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, at some point you have to do it.

1083
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: And so I think you got to figure out what

1084
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: you're good enough is. You can learn all of the

1085
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: many hundreds of reasons why in investing in index funds

1086
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: inside of your foree K is a good thing for

1087
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: your financial future. But you could also learn just a

1088
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 1: few things and say that's good enough. That's good enough.

1089
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: I know enough to at least get started, and you

1090
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: can always go back and learn more on the back end,

1091
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 1: which I think is good. It's kind of fun to

1092
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: now that you're started, get even deeper. Yeah, but you

1093
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: got to get started.

1094
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 2: Once you got some of that skin in the game,

1095
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 2: it becomes way more real and there's just lessons that

1096
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 2: you learn from having skin in the game, right from

1097
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 2: having started and opened that roth I ray, from having

1098
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 2: initiating that transaction, all of those things that you learn

1099
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: along the way. Yeah, that's when she was talking about

1100
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 2: how essentially like perfectionism, it's the flip side of procrastination. Yeah,

1101
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: and that one stung a little.

1102
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: Bit because that's totally my totally my Linda, you just

1103
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:19,719
Speaker 1: like open your guts, appeared into your soul.

1104
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: Right. Then maybe she'll she'll caught me that first session

1105
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 2: that she mentioned calling you out publicly. I'm totally fine

1106
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 2: with it. I would not have mentioned it if I wasn't.

1107
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: But let's go ahead and get to the beer that

1108
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was a

1109
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 2: Mexican logger. This was by High Cotton Brewing. What were

1110
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: your thoughts on this one? But my first thought was

1111
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: you forgot to bring the lime, dude. Okay, so that's

1112
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: on you. Hey, if you need lime with your beer

1113
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 2: to enjoy it, you you're drinking the wrong beer.

1114
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 1: But it's a Mexican logger. That's the only beer you're

1115
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: supposed to put a lit right, well supposedly, Yeah, if

1116
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: you're into that. Well, So this one was like really

1117
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: really crisp. I thought it was, Yeah, just like that's

1118
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: the old that's the best adject if I have to

1119
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: describe this one. It definitely tastes it like a Mexican lager,

1120
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: but maybe a slightly finer craft beer or version of

1121
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: a Mexican lagger. And so, yeah, I did not need

1122
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: a lime, but I would be interested to see what

1123
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: it takes it like with one. Yeah, I had that snap.

1124
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: It like makes me think of like a just.

1125
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: A fresh head of iceberg lettuce and you're just like crunch, Yeah, yeah,

1126
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: exactly for me, Like I feel like it almost had

1127
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: like some white wine qualities to it, And some Mexican

1128
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 2: lagers don't typically have all a ton of depth, but

1129
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: this one, I don't know. It was crisp, but simultaneously

1130
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: it kind of had what i'll oftentimes, So is it

1131
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 2: is it Pinogriggio? Is that that's a that's a type

1132
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: of white one the wrong guy? Yeah, No, it is

1133
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: a type of wine. I do know that. That's so

1134
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: that's the kind that sometimes is described as like smelling

1135
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: or even tasting like a new garden hose or like

1136
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: a fresh cane of tennis balls. This beer, I felt like,

1137
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: this beer totally also have that, And it's not a

1138
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 2: negative thing, just the flavors. It's not like when we

1139
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 2: say barnyard funk with a Sason. It's like some people

1140
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: will be like gross, no, no, no, it's actually yeah, it's

1141
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 2: kind of a weird description, but it's also a way

1142
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: to kind of describe what you're tasting. I like the funk, yeah, personally, absolutely.

1143
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: But this was a fantastic beer. I'm glad this was

1144
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 2: one that you were able to pick up for us. Mate.

1145
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: Actually, this was my brother in law and sister in

1146
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: law they got to today. Yeah, so thanks to Ben

1147
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,399
Speaker 1: and Rachel for grabbing this per long.

1148
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: Because they're up there in Memphis, which is where this

1149
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: beer is brewed. Yeah, thank you both Ben and Rachel

1150
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 2: for donating this one to the show. But Joel, that's

1151
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: going to be it for this episode. We'll make sure

1152
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 2: to link to us some of the different resources that

1153
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: Lindsay shared there at the end of our conversation. You

1154
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 2: can find those up on our website at howdomoney dot com.

1155
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 2: Maybe take that financial archetype quiz and let us know

1156
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: it was interesting and it was accurate. Yeah, yeah, it

1157
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: really was. It's funny. Oftentimes you read those and you're like,

1158
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 2: how how did they know? But Yeah, it's a lot

1159
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 2: of fun, but that's going to be it for this

1160
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 2: episode until next time. Best Friends Out, best Friends Out

1161
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: the the