WEBVTT - House Republicans Move to Impeach Deputy AG Rosenstein

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg dot com, Slash podcast. Met against Deputy Attorney General

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<v Speaker 1>Rod Rosenstein. Speaking on Fox News, House Freedom Caucus member

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Meadows explained the actions for us, it's all about transparency,

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<v Speaker 1>so of the American people can judge for themselves, and

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, they may be able to ignore Congress,

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<v Speaker 1>but they can't ignore the American people joining us. As

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Kramer, a former federal prosecutor and managing director at

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<v Speaker 1>the Berkeley Research Group, Jeff a lot of drama, but

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<v Speaker 1>not much evidence of any traction. Paul Ryan says he's

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<v Speaker 1>not supporting it, and Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said it's

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<v Speaker 1>more likely Rosenstein will end up in the NBA playing

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<v Speaker 1>basketball than being impeach So why file articles and impeachment? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a good line in the basketball. It's basically for

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<v Speaker 1>it is for drama, and it got a news cycle

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<v Speaker 1>for a day and that was it. You know, it

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<v Speaker 1>allows some people to pop off and express their dissatisfaction

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<v Speaker 1>um with the deputy Attorney general. Um. But it's it

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<v Speaker 1>was absurd to think it was gonna go anywhere. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure they thought so as well. So what do you

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<v Speaker 1>think is rosen Stein's future here? Does he does he stay?

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<v Speaker 1>Does he eventually leave? What do you think? You know?

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<v Speaker 1>The rosen fins is a career prosecutor, so he certainly

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<v Speaker 1>has you know, d o j uh running through his blood.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think he's gonna leave anytime soon, certainly not

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<v Speaker 1>before the Mueller investigation is done. I mean, he he

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<v Speaker 1>knows that if he were to leave, someone could be

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<v Speaker 1>appointed who would then stopped in his track. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think he has a sense of duty that he needs

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<v Speaker 1>to stick it out, and he's gonna be a punching

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<v Speaker 1>bag and he knows that. But he's got to wait,

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<v Speaker 1>I think until the Mueller investigation, not necessarily all the trials,

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<v Speaker 1>but certainly the crux of the investigation has done. You

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<v Speaker 1>just spoke about the Mueller investigation. Let's talk about that

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. There was a New York Times article

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<v Speaker 1>this morning that talked about how Mueller's investigators are really

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<v Speaker 1>seriously looking at some of the president's tweets tell us

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<v Speaker 1>about how those tweets might play a part in the investigation. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's been banted around, not by Mueller, but

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<v Speaker 1>just by you know, various individuals that that could prove

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<v Speaker 1>to be fodder. And not surprisingly, Mueller is looking at it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it gives you a glimpse into what the person

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, if this was an average individual, you

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<v Speaker 1>do the same thing. What is he or she said?

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<v Speaker 1>That could add some color to what they were thinking,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's what obstruction comes down to, is their intent.

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<v Speaker 1>And you look at someone's intent, you look at what

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<v Speaker 1>their actions are. And part of this president's actions are

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<v Speaker 1>his tweets trying to influence, if not the investigation, then

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<v Speaker 1>public perception. But he was certainly trying to influence as

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<v Speaker 1>best he could uh the investigation. You could argue that

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<v Speaker 1>that has obstruction not two problems. One, it's not great evidence,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's it's a part of the mosaic if you

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<v Speaker 1>will too. Which is a bigger problem is even if

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<v Speaker 1>he did commit obstruction, even if you could prove it,

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller has been clear that he's going to abide by

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<v Speaker 1>d o J policy. It's not the law, it's policy

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<v Speaker 1>that a sitting president cannot be indicted. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>it best you're going to get an argument laid out

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<v Speaker 1>in a report to Congress. What about the collusion piece

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<v Speaker 1>of it? Though, yeah, I mean I don't know. The

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<v Speaker 1>president says no collusion over and so far, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's no leaks that suggests that that's where Mueller, that

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller's got anything on that true. But this investigation, and

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<v Speaker 1>we've seen it, uh, surprised us in the sense that

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<v Speaker 1>we just wake up and there's an indictment. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I dare say that nine percent of the population has

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<v Speaker 1>never heard Bob Muller talk. They don't even know his voice.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like, and that's appropriate because he's just putting his

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<v Speaker 1>head down and doing his work. Is up press release,

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<v Speaker 1>there's no news conferences, et cetera. So he's certainly looking

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<v Speaker 1>at the collusion. That's a hard argument to make. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>We certainly see some individuals in the Trump orbit, and

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<v Speaker 1>some of them have been indicted, who were interacting with

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<v Speaker 1>Russian government officials and perhaps agents of the Russian government,

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<v Speaker 1>and we saw a recent indictment just now. Um. But

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<v Speaker 1>proving that Trump or someone very close to included. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know it's called a conspiracy because collusion itself is

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a crime. Um, it's conspiras a conspiracy to

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<v Speaker 1>take uh anything of aid from a foreign government, that's

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<v Speaker 1>the crime. It's gonna be hard to tag that to

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<v Speaker 1>the White House itself. So now I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>we'll see Muther even observing at the Maniford trial, but

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<v Speaker 1>that's supposed to start next week. How important is a

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<v Speaker 1>conviction of Manifort to the Special Council's investigation as a whole.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's are important. It's the first first volley,

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<v Speaker 1>and you want to win that trial because as you

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<v Speaker 1>move forward in the investigation. Part of this that's true

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<v Speaker 1>with any prosecutorial office. When you're bringing people in, is

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<v Speaker 1>you're trying to flip them, you're trying to turn them. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>how you flip them, how you turn them is the fear,

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<v Speaker 1>the specter that if they get indicted and tried, they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to jail. And that specter becomes more prominent if

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<v Speaker 1>you've already cut a scalp, if you were um and

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<v Speaker 1>this one is I don't want to say it's a

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's it's an easy case because all cases

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<v Speaker 1>are difficult once you get to trial. But it's a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty solid case with documents, money trail, no taxes paid,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've got several witnesses who are going to give

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<v Speaker 1>some color to the trial itself. Certainly, Mr Gates, it's

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<v Speaker 1>not a long trial. You know, this thing may take

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<v Speaker 1>three weeks. I doubt will see Mr manafor trial or

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<v Speaker 1>to actually testify. And I think at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>this trial there'll be a conviction. Uh, and that's an

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<v Speaker 1>important one for the special prosecutor to get. Well, it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be a little bit of a picture of

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<v Speaker 1>life styles of the rich and famous, five exhibits, including

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<v Speaker 1>including pictures of his palatial houses and expensive clothes. Now

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<v Speaker 1>the judge is trying to lay down all kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>ground rules so that the jury won't be exposed to

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<v Speaker 1>the politics of the case. Is it possible to shield

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<v Speaker 1>jurors from that? You know, it's it's hard. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not going to be sequestered, so they're gonna go home,

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<v Speaker 1>they're gonna be told not to read anything about uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, politics or this trial. Certainly, that basically leaves

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<v Speaker 1>the sports section availbum the potential jurors. You can't turn

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<v Speaker 1>on the TV. That's too risky. But like I say,

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<v Speaker 1>this is not a four months trial, so they just

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<v Speaker 1>need to keep their heads down for for a few weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the Virginia District is known to pick a

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<v Speaker 1>quick jury. This is gonna be a little trickier because

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<v Speaker 1>given where it's located, either they or someone close to

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<v Speaker 1>them probably works or worked in the past tense for

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<v Speaker 1>the government, and chances are, like everyone else in this country,

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<v Speaker 1>they have pre solid views politically speaking. Uh, maybe a

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<v Speaker 1>little tricky to pick a jury, but once they do,

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<v Speaker 1>in my experience, jurors are pretty good about listening to

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<v Speaker 1>those kind of instructions. The trick here is to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure you get a fair jury and not someone who

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<v Speaker 1>wants to get on this panel just to get their

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen minutes of faith and maybe prove a point. Just

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<v Speaker 1>about thirty seconds here, what do you think man of

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<v Speaker 1>forts defense is going to be just trying to knock

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<v Speaker 1>holes in the prosecution's case. It's a hard defense, it

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<v Speaker 1>really is. And that's what it comes down to. You're

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<v Speaker 1>looking for one juror just to hang this thing up,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know Gates has some baggage on him, as

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<v Speaker 1>any flipper does. But you can't cross examine a document.

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<v Speaker 1>It is what it is. Either paid the taxes or

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't. Either set up the shell companies or he didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a very hard defense, uh, to to muster, and

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<v Speaker 1>you're just gonna throw everything against the wall and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>get lucky. Always great to have you on, Jeff. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff Kramer. He's managed and directed the Berkeley Research. Of course, America, lawyers,

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<v Speaker 1>intern porners, and other professionals are volunteering some of their

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<v Speaker 1>free time to help an organization called Lawyers for Good Government,

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<v Speaker 1>which its founder, executive director and only employee, Tracy fight

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<v Speaker 1>Love says, is a progressive non partis an organization. I

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<v Speaker 1>think the reason we're seeing the wave of activity that

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<v Speaker 1>we're seeing now, and the reasons so many people joined

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<v Speaker 1>Lawyers for Government, and the reasons so many people are

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<v Speaker 1>participating in these other movements is because they believe as

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<v Speaker 1>I do, in the idea of America, in the dream

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<v Speaker 1>of America, and what we can accomplish when we stand

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<v Speaker 1>up for those ideals together joining us as Nick Lieber,

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<v Speaker 1>a reporter for Bloomberg News who has written about this group. Nick,

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<v Speaker 1>It's not unusual for lawyers to do pro bono work,

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<v Speaker 1>but this kind of a setup and network is different

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<v Speaker 1>from the usual pro bono work. Explain how it works. Sure, So,

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<v Speaker 1>they are one point three four million lawyers in the

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<v Speaker 1>US and many of them work for themselves and work

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<v Speaker 1>for small firms that don't have pro bono councils that

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and this group is a way for those

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers who don't have access to pro bono councils to

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<v Speaker 1>volunteer and to find opportunities where they feel like they

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<v Speaker 1>can do some good. So it's a it's a group

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<v Speaker 1>that helps train these lawyers and helps place them in

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<v Speaker 1>volunteer opportunities, and that can be anything from um environmental

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<v Speaker 1>protection to preventing voter suppression to helping immigrants cheek asylums.

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<v Speaker 1>Are there any volunteer lawyers for Trump? Um? There there

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<v Speaker 1>are probably volunteer lawyers for Trump the causes that this

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<v Speaker 1>group Lawyers for Government does UM, I would doubt there

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<v Speaker 1>are too many lawyers within it who support UM many

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<v Speaker 1>of Trump's policies that have to do with immigration or

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<v Speaker 1>environmental protection or voter suppression. Nick I was noticing in

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<v Speaker 1>your article that a lot of the lawyers who are

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<v Speaker 1>volunteering don't have experience in these practice areas, so what

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<v Speaker 1>do they do to train them? So the the organization itself,

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<v Speaker 1>Lawyers for Good Government, will do some training, and the

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<v Speaker 1>organizations in which they volunteer, so say a legal services

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<v Speaker 1>group UM on the border, will will train them as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So there are there are different opportunities to get trained

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<v Speaker 1>depending on what you elect to volunteer and do. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and of course it's competitive, there are a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people who want to volunteer and UM. The

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<v Speaker 1>in the detention centers there is limited space, limited limited

0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.360
<v Speaker 1>visiting space where you can meet with clients. UM. So

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<v Speaker 1>you you sort of um have to have to find

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<v Speaker 1>time space training and then be able to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Make any sense of how much time some of these

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<v Speaker 1>lawyers are spending away from their day jobs, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's generally about a week if you're if you're on

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<v Speaker 1>the ground in a in a detention center. UM. That's

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<v Speaker 1>generally how it works. But then people are also UM.

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<v Speaker 1>During the first iteration of the of the Muslim band

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<v Speaker 1>the travel ban, people were spending weeks away from their

0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.600
<v Speaker 1>offices UM. And I think it depends. I think there

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<v Speaker 1>are also people volunteering UM remotely and helping prepare briefs,

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<v Speaker 1>and that could mean you spend you know, six hours

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<v Speaker 1>at night after after you finished your work at your practice,

0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.800
<v Speaker 1>or four hour US at night after you finish your practice. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it. I think it varies, but generally it's

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<v Speaker 1>about a week if you go to to volunteer at

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<v Speaker 1>a legal services group UM and you're and you're in

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<v Speaker 1>a detention center. So I thought you mentioned that they

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<v Speaker 1>volunteered remotely, which I thought was really interesting. But the

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<v Speaker 1>coordination it must take to get all these disparate elements

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<v Speaker 1>together and even to get translators involved. So tell us

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<v Speaker 1>about how she's managing all this. Well, I think I

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<v Speaker 1>think you know right right when she she started the

0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:41.160
<v Speaker 1>group UM, there was an incredible outpouring of people who

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to be involved. And I think what she's been

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<v Speaker 1>spending a lot of time doing is exactly that is

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<v Speaker 1>figuring out. Okay, let's make sure we have an interpreter

0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 1>who can be on the ground at Boston Air at Logan.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's make sure we have someone who has spent a

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<v Speaker 1>decade doing immigration law who can go to Texas it's

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<v Speaker 1>figuring out who has certain skills and who can get

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<v Speaker 1>from point A to point B at a certain time.

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<v Speaker 1>And a lot of that is people volunteering their time

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<v Speaker 1>to create spreadsheets that they then used to say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm available this, this person is available at this time.

0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:24.560
<v Speaker 1>They have these skills and they can do this, and

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.240
<v Speaker 1>they're willing to come on these dates and then and

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<v Speaker 1>then the sort of magic of them making coordinating all

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.480
<v Speaker 1>that and making it happen. But it's, you know, it's

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 1>it's hard work. Only less in a minute here, Nick,

0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.559
<v Speaker 1>But what other professionals besides lawyers and translators do does

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.160
<v Speaker 1>she have? I think that they're also looking for psychiatrists

0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:51.560
<v Speaker 1>who can help do evaluations of parents and children that

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:56.840
<v Speaker 1>they can use in in their asylum requests. Who can

0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about the stress and and more hardcore UM realities

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:09.720
<v Speaker 1>that asylum seekrets have faced and can document that in reports.

0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:16.920
<v Speaker 1>UM interpreters, yes, UM, and people who are willing, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>to give rides to asylum seekers when they're going, say,

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<v Speaker 1>leaving a detention center and then trying to reconnect that

0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.520
<v Speaker 1>ended there, Nick, It sounds really comprehensive and as was

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<v Speaker 1>your story. Thanks so much. That's Nick's Lieber, a reporter

0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.359
<v Speaker 1>for Bloomberg News. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast.

0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:42.720
<v Speaker 1>and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.160
<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg. Yeah,