WEBVTT - Will Trump Election Challenges Matter? 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grassoe from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.959 The Trump campaign has launched a legal onslaught over vote 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.440 counts in battleground states, filing at least six lawsuits since 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.799 election day to challenge the ballot counts whose suits have 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:19.680 already been dismissed, and the question is whether any of 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.680 the cases has a real chance to effect the final count. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:27.159 On Friday, Republican National Committee Chair Rona McDaniels said the 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.960 RNC has deployed legal teams to Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.320 citing concerns about so far unproven claims of voter fraud. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.000 We will fight every regularity to the very last, because 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.120 every voter deserves their vote to be counted, and they 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:48.120 deserve to know whether or not these irregularities mean fraud, 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.360 and we have to figure this out. But Philadelphia Mayor 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.560 Jim Kenney said the president's team has not produced any 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.200 evidence to back up his claims of fraud. I think 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.800 what the president needs to do is Frankie put his 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.440 big boy pants on. He needs to acknowledge the fact 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.720 that he lost, and he needs to congratulate the winner, 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.319 just as Jimmy Carter did, just as George H. W. 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.120 Bush did, and frankly, just as Al Gore did, and 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.440 stop this and let us move forward as a country. 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.240 My guest is election law expert Richard Brofald, professor at 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.759 Columbia Law School. Rich let's look at some of these cases. 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.760 Starting with Michigan, the Trump campaign tried to stop the 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.880 count and it claimed it hadn't been given meaningful access 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.119 to the counting locations to observe the process. A judge 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:37.400 already rejected that is that claim then dead. I think 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.319 unless the campaign can provide evidence that shows that access 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.080 was not provided, it is always a challenge to overturn 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.840 the decision of the judge who was on the scene. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.559 And unless they can actually provide evidence that they were 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.720 somehow not given the access of the law entitles them too, 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.040 and that that might have affected the count and that 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.640 the result in the particular places which would have affected 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.040 the overall accounts, I think it's it's a very high 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.040 hurdle for them to overcome. And another lawsuit that was 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.760 dismissed was in Georgia, and there they claim that a 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:16.400 Republican pole observer in Chatham County witness laid ballots being 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.919 illegally added to a stack of on time absentee ballots. 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.200 The judge just threw that out, saying there's no evidence. 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:30.560 So that's also over right, and it's extremely unlikely, between 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.880 very unlikely and almost nearly impossible, never say never for 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.519 a higher level court to overturn a child judge or 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.280 a district court. Judges of assessment of the evidence of 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.079 the judge said there's no evidence. That almost surely means 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.000 there's no evidence that any higher court would be interested in. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.680 In Nevada, the lawsuit alleges that ten thousand votes were 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.680 illegally cast by people who no longer reside in the state. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.120 If people no longer reside in the state, are they 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.679 still allowed to vote if intend to come back. I 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.560 guess that depends on what you mean by reside. In 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.000 other words, if somebody has temporarily moved because for example, 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.480 they want to go to their vacation home which is 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.200 in a lower COVID area, there's still residents of the state. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.600 So I mean they have to first show that there 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:17.440 are people who fall into any category of having movement, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.320 and I've got to show that the person has actually 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:24.280 relocated as opposed to staying temporarily somewhere else. People it's 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.840 a big deal to give up residency if they still 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.560 maintain an address, if they're paying their utility bills, and 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.680 then they haven't less the state. I wonder how they 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.240 even came up with that number, Like what kind of 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.080 research or what would have shown that? Right? I mean, 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.480 I mean, that's the question. They've been bringing a lot 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.760 of lawsuits without much evidence, or maybe without any evidence. 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.360 They've been They've been hurling a lot of accusations, but 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.240 so far the courts who have been hearing these cases 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:53.160 have been pretty unreceptive because they don't see any evidence. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.480 So I think they actually would have to come up 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.960 with some specific people and show that those people are 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.480 no longer there, and I haven't heard that yet. The 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.440 cases that are getting the most attention are those in 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.120 Pennsylvania for a couple of reasons, the importance of Pennsylvania 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.280 as a swing state and the fact that the U. S. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.560 Supreme Court already decided in a fourd or four decision 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.719 to leave in place the Pennsylvania Supreme Court's decision allowing 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:23.040 ballots received three days after election day but postmarked by 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.840 election day to be counted. State officials have told counties 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.520 to separate out those late arriving ballots, but some of 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.200 the conservative justice has left the door open to reconsidering 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.800 the question after the election. The Trump campaign is also 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.920 suing in Pennsylvania with an access argument, again saying their 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:46.000 representatives were being denied reasonable access to monitor the counting 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.720 of votes. In Philadelphia, the vote counting is live streaming, 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.080 So what kind of transparency are they looking for? Once again, 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.320 you can make a statement, but then you actually have 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.640 to say not only what you're looking for, but what 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.680 you're legally entitled to. But they are entitled. Each state 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.360 has has its own laws that say who is supposed 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.280 to be present when both are accounted. Typically, and I 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.040 think this is the case in Pennsylvania, there should be 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.599 representatives of both parties. My understanding is that that has 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.599 been the case. Trump campaign one am very minor victory 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.320 when they were allowed to get a little bit closer 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.160 to the action while still maintaining six feet of kind 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.400 of COVID required public health distance. So they didn't win 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.840 a minor victory there in terms of how close they 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.040 can get to watch the both counting. But I don't 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:33.520 think any court has said that there's been any situation 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.039 in which there wasn't the required bipartisan observation of the 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.840 whole accounting. So again, it's it's one thing to say 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.000 there needs to be more transparency. Is something else to 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.160 say the law requires the following and they haven't given 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.000 it to us, and that I have not heard. I've 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.920 been talking to Columbia Law School professor Richard Revault. Do 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.000 you think the Pennsylvania's Supreme Court went outside the bounds 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.120 of its authority in granting that three days tension? That 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.640 turns a lot on what their authority is, to be honest, 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.080 and that's actually, in some ways the issue that is 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:08.560 lurking beneath the surface of the Supreme Court. If it's 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.279 an issue the Supreme Court wants to take on. I 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.280 don't think the Pennsylvania Supreme Court went beyond its authority 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.520 as the highest court in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.800 charge of interpreting the statutes of the state in light 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.440 of the state constitution, and the state constitution has a 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.040 strong protection of the right to vote. So I don't 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.960 think there is much doubt that in terms that they 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.640 were within their balance of looking at their statutes in 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.800 light of the state constitution and in the light of 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:38.440 the situation the COVID created postal Service create the lays 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.440 created situation. The question that's been asked by a number 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.760 of the justices and is being pressed by Republicans in 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.560 the Trump campaign is were they actually allowed to look 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.400 at their state constitution or they were they required to 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.320 look only at the text of the state statute. Texas 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:57.200 state statute does set a specific deadline by which ballots 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.640 must be received the Pennsylvania Court when other than that, 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.599 the problem is, the argument is being made that they're 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.919 not that. Under the US Constitution, the state legislature is 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.520 the body that sets the rules for the selection of 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.680 presidential electors, and they set a specific deadline for the 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.000 receipt of S and T ballots, and so therefore, as 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:21.840 a matter of US constitutional law, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:26.480 couldn't use its state constitution to you know, extend that deadline. 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.440 That's the question that would go to the Supreme Court 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.560 if the case goes to the Supreme Court. My understanding 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:38.080 and is that uh Biden is winning Pennsylvania without actually 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.200 having to look at those later on ballots. Uh as 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.440 you know, you may recall when the Supreme Court declined 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:48.160 to intervene in Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania a trainey general in 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.440 the secretary that comwell right after that said we are 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.920 going to keep any later arriving ballots separate so that 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.200 if the Supreme Court does intervene, that we can we 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.720 can count these these question ballots separately. And if there's 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:04.880 you know, and so it won't affect the ballot that 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.960 did come in on time. And so, um, it's not 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:10.760 one reason the Supreme Court might not take the case. 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.720 But we don't know is it might not make a difference. 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.240 The Trump campaign is asking for a recount in Wisconsin 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:23.040 and possibly in Georgia. In most states are recounts triggered 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.720 automatically when there's a certain margin between the two candidates. 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.640 Most states have an automatic recount rule, and sometimes it's 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:32.720 one percent and sometimes it's a half of a percent. 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.840 But certainly, right, certainly the numbers in Georgia are so 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.840 close that uh, it would pass any rule for an 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:45.079 automatic recount. So who pays for the recounts? Well, again, 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.480 there are different states have different rules on this, and 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.240 it actually turns on how close it is. So that 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:52.319 if it's if it's very close, and I think the 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.439 state pays for it. If it's if it's uh, if 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.679 the results are wider than a certain margin, and I 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.800 think the party asking for the recount pays for it. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.160 As far as my research has taken me, there's never 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:06.559 been a recount that resulted in more than a couple 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.400 of hundred votes either way. Typically there is the numbers 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.880 changed very narrowly. And as I recalled, there was a 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.160 recount in Wisconsin four years ago when Trump won by 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.360 about twenty votes, and the recount resulted in giving him 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.080 a hundred and thirty votes. More So, right now, the 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.200 margin between Trump and Biden, it was conceivable that the 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.960 numbers will move a little bit. But um, in the 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.160 vast majority of recounts, the results don't change, especially with 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.120 a margin as big as twenty thousands. Even in the 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:41.640 bushbeg Gol litigation in Florida twenty years ago, I think 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.720 um the margin. I think Bush's margin went from something 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:50.360 like votes to something like uh votes uh five hundred 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.920 something votes. The numbers changed, but they changed by a 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.400 few hundred um, even when they were six million votes cast. 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.920 So would you character is all the lawsuits as nuisance 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:07.600 lawsuits or something more than a nuisance lawsuit. I think 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.120 they are legally, I think they're nuisance lawsuits. I think 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.640 their purposes less about the law and more about public 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:19.880 relations and about kind of maintaining um, the posture that 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.720 there's something wrong here. So far, all of them have 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.760 either been dismissed or the one victory that I'm aware 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:28.160 of was on a very very minor point that will 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.800 have no effect on the income. But I think it's 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.960 all about on a project of trying to cast doubt 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.760 on the legitimacy of the election by filing as many 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.960 lawsuits as they can as they can and maybe also 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.040 delay I mean the law. If they can delay the account, 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.920 they can maintain this UH, the the the illusion that 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:52.360 there's something wrong here and keep the turmoil going UM 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.240 and maybe in the hope that something happens. But so far, UM, 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.439 there is UH. The lawsuits have been pretty much baseless 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.600 and on inciated UH. And the one time I think 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.920 they went a victory was on a fairly minor point. Now, 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:11.520 speaking of casting doubt, what's your reaction to President Trump's 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:18.120 statement on Thursday night that there were illegal ballots and 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.240 the election was being stolen, and can you lend any 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.880 credence to his claims, you know there since he presented 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.680 no evidence, I think the answer is no. I mean, 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.400 there have been um no evidence of a stunt, want 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.960 to say, any illegal votes, but there's only been no 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.680 evidence of any illegal any illegal votes that come even 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.080 remotely close to affecting the outcome in any state. I mean, 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:42.920 I don't want to say that there was never any 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.280 illegal votes cast on either side, but they have never 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.680 um the camp, the Trump campaign has not come forward 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.920 evidence of any number of illegal votes sufficient to affect 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.800 the outcome in any state. CNN is reporting that Trump 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.439 has told people he has no plans to in seed 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.920 even if his path to victory appears to be blocked. 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:09.800 Is there any requirement or necessity for a president to concede. No, 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.000 it's just a matter of courtesy and kind of the 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.040 dignity of the system about a loser concedes. But no, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.520 he doesn't have to concede if he loses. Eventually, the 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.480 each state will certify its results of the election, and 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.400 the certified and the results a result in the the 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.119 selection of a set of electors UH and on December 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.679 those electors will vote UM, and on January six, those 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.760 electors votes to be officially counted in Congress. And there's 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.320 not much he can do. There's nothing he can do 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:47.480 about that. We've been talking about how you know, it's 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.000 been taking a longer time for the states to count 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.160 with all the mail in voting. But tell us about 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.360 December eight than this safe Harvard deadline, and when we 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.800 can stop being concerned about stay sending in different ballots 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:07.240 of electors. Right so under UM, Under there's something called 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.880 the Electoral Count Act, which Congress passed in the late 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:15.040 nineteenth century to deal with disputed elections. UM. Congress has 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:19.920 promised that if a state completes all of completes its 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.520 count and and declares a result, and does so under 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.679 laws that existed before election day, if the state does 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.760 all that by six days before its electors are scheduled 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.400 to meet, the Congress has promised it will honor that result. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.439 So UM, all the electors are scheduled to meet on 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.440 December fourteen. That's the day Congress has set for the 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.880 meeting of the Electoral College. So uh, six days before 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.840 that is is December eight, And that's become known as 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:53.760 the say harbor day. Um, if by December eight a 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:58.360 state has resolved all the disputes that maybe maybe with 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.800 respect to who on the presidential election of that state, 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:07.439 and has declared you a certified winner, um, then the 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.600 Congress has promised to honor that result. So finally, just 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.679 give me your thoughts about the election and the allegations 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.600 of fraud. Has the integrity of the system, has the 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.200 confidence in the system been damaged? Those are two different questions. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.080 I think actually the integrity the system has been maintained 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:32.720 through the incredible work of state and county elections commissioners 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:35.960 who have really been under incredible amounts of stress through 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.880 this whole process. That the shift to massive amounts of 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.720 mail in balance is unprecedented, The attacks on the system 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.120 are unprecedented. You know, the challenge to find poll workers 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.560 and to run safe and sanitary polling stations is unprecedented. 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.520 So I think, actually it's a rickety system. We need 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.120 a better system. But in fact I think we are 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.720 seeing that the system works. The elections offices rose incredibly 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.600 to the challenge. But has the legitimacy of the system 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.560 been under my for sure, this relentless trumpeat of criticisms 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:13.200 by the President and his allies. This consummates insistence that 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.800 there's fraud. Surely many movies Americans have been persuaded that 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.640 there's something wrong here, and that's the terrible thing. Thanks 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.760 for being on the Bloomberg Law Show. Rich that's Richard Brofald, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:28.600 a professor, Columbia Law School. The Trump campaign has filed 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.880 lawsuits in the battleground states of Georgia, Nevada, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.200 and said it will seek a recount in Wisconsin. On 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.040 Thursday night, President Trump once again alleged wide scale voter 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.680 fraud and has stolen election without proof, and he promised 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:48.760 continued legal action. If you count the legal votes, I 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:53.200 easily win. If you count the illegal votes, they can 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.680 try to steal the election from us. Trump's lawsuits have 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.080 had very limited sick says so far, none of alter 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.120 the race is trajectory, and none of the remaining suits 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.400 appear to be game changers. They're mainly focused on some 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.720 aspects of the processing of mail in ballots, but not 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.560 on enough ballots to alter the outcome of the race. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.040 Joining me as election law expert, Justin Levitt, a professor 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:23.040 at Loyola Law School. How would you characterize these lawsuits 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:27.000 by the Trump campaign? I would say some of them 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.360 look like they might have merit. The facts are a 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.400 little bit hard to get your head around. Some of 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.040 them look like they don't really have any merit at all. 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.520 But all of them appeared to be over really minor 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:42.480 procedural things like standing a bit closer when you can 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.200 observe the count order, having you know, extra access to 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.760 video feed that they didn't have before, or something like that. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.080 Nothing that seems too far in any way meaningfully infuence 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.920 the integrity of the count or in any way indicates 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:01.160 any sort of capacity to meaningfully change the results. So then, 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:05.359 what's the strategy? You can look behind the lawsuits. What's 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.199 the strategy of the Trump campaign here? It's hard to know. 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.880 Part of it may be instinct. If a doctor would 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.160 strike Donald Trump on the knee with a rubber mallet, 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:18.240 he'd probably file a lawsuit. That's the auto response. Part 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.520 of it may be that the President had tweeted we're 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.679 going to litigate, and a bunch of people are now 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.840 scrambling to make better reality. That wouldn't be the first 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.240 time that a tweet or a promise at a rally 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.760 turned into some fairly chroxotic action. It might be that 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.640 this is a mechanism to keep raising money. That would 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.600 not be the first time that litigation, postal and litigation, 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.840 even if it had no reasonable shot at winning, were 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.840 used as a fundraising device. And it might be just 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.520 a contribution to the messaging of the day, an attempt 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.680 to cast down on the legitim to the elections because 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.320 there are all these lawsuits quote unquote, I want to 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.080 say mostly observers who are looking at this don't think 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.680 the lawsuits amount to much. But for the public he 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.960 can say we filed suit in X number of places, 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.320 and perhaps that further is the argument that he's attempting 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.920 to make to deal with the lane to see election itself. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.480 I don't think it's working, and I'm not quite sure 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.119 what he pursued the endgame today. I can't think of 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.360 any other reason other than those because the lawsuits, as is, 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.200 not only don't they stand a chance of changing reself, 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.119 they're not designed for that. So is there any problem 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.320 in some of the lawsuits seeming to have a contradictory 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:33.199 strategy where you're trying to stop the vote count in 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.960 some of them, and you're trying to get a recount 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.240 in other states. Is there a contradictory strategy that makes 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:45.960 a difference. The court certainly don't like inconsistent claims. Now, 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:49.080 it might well be that in one state the allegation 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:51.480 is that the count should stop ps there has to 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.840 be a why behind that. You can't just march an 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.479 important say stop the count. There's gotta be a reason, 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.359 And there has been absolutely no reason to think that 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.040 any of the should stop so far. State law requires 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:07.520 that the ballots that arrives validly from valid voters be counted. 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.960 So I want to be abundantly clear. Just wandering in 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.879 the court saying stop the count isn't a thing, and 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.399 it's certainly not a thing the courts will listen to 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:20.480 or have listened to. It might be that the facts, 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.160 the different facts, facts different than what we have now, 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.439 could theoretically lead to different actions in different states. The 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.360 courts don't look at strategies, They look at what they 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.800 had in front of them. That said, it is difficult 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.439 to discern what the strategy might be, and courts do 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.520 care about saying inconsistent things in their own case or 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.000 in similarly situated cases, and I haven't seen anything other 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:49.359 than opportunism that amount to any sort of rationale about 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.800 why different votes need to be counted in some places 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.320 and not in others. And by the way, I don't 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.520 think the courts are listening to the tweets. Arch of 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.800 the Press two pr that the Trump is trying to generate. 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.280 Courts thus far this year has acted like courts. I 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.480 haven't always agreed with them. Sometimes I think they get 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.400 the law right. Sometimes I think they get a lot wrong. 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.719 Sometimes I have a different impression of the facts than 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.160 they may have. But the courts have been remarkably consistent 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.399 the entire year at waving off claims that are no 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:25.199 more than wild gesticulation, all caps, exclamation points. Judges have 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.359 been acting like judges. That's what we expect. But I 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.560 think we should also expect that to continue. And so 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.840 until there's a lawsuits that actually shows real facts that 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.640 entitles the Trump campaign is some different outcome. I frankly 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.920 don't think that the lawsuits are going to yield much. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.520 I want to talk about the some of the lawsuits 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.159 and the allegations because there are several lawsuits in some 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.080 sites that are complaining about as you mentioned, you know, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.760 the process for ballot observers or the way that ballot 0:20:55.800 --> 0:21:00.399 observers are getting to observe the counting. Do they go 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.560 very far after the count? I mean, can they come 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.919 back and say, after the count is in and the 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.240 state has been declared, well, we didn't get to watch this, 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.560 so these don't count. No. The short version is you 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.399 have to actually have evidence that the law was broken, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.600 that there was a statutory or constitutionalization that balance were 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.200 not counted that should have been, or that that we're 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.200 counted that should not have been. And simply I didn't 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.000 get to stand close enough. Isn't anything that actually jeopardizes 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.120 the integrity of the any of the balance. And that's 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.240 part of why I say some of these cases on 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.160 their own merits are probably worthwhile. If they've been excluded 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.240 from a particular location that they have a right to 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.520 be in, then a court maywell grant they're right to 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:50.960 be in that location. But the simple fact that there's 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.240 been a minor procedural slip up and who's allowed to 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.520 observe from where? And I want to be clear, I'm 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.560 not sure in all of the cases that have been filed, 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:00.439 because there has been slip ups. Some of the youth 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.600 have been actually contested where the campaign has come in 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.200 and said we're not allowed in the next place, and 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.000 the city has said, you've been in next place for 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.160 a couple of days, of course you're allowed there. It's fine. 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.560 So I don't want to I don't want to assume 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:16.080 the conclusion that just because they're saying it's been included, 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:20.199 that's actually true. But even if it were true, that 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.639 doesn't actually impute the intevity the ballots themselves, and so 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.400 that is not in fact going to be accepted by court. 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.360 It's a reason to stop the count, change the results, 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:34.560 or throughout any single ballots. In Georgia, they claim that 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.880 a Republican pole observer in Chatham County witness late ballots 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:44.240 being illegally added to a stack of on time absentee ballots. 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:49.560 Would that they said may have and in those wiggle 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:55.399 roads is a lot of um meaning. So it is 0:22:55.440 --> 0:23:00.800 true that late ballots, ballots that arrived after the period 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:06.080 designated by state law should not be counted um. It's 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.280 also true that a handful of those who's not going 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:13.800 to either change or incune the results as a whole um, 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:20.719