Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here, your
Speaker 2: favorite daily podcast about the studied dissolution of society as
Speaker 2: we know it. I'm your guest host, Molly Conger, joined
Speaker 2: once again by our friend Garrison.
Speaker 1: Hello. Happy to look at the abyss once again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, trying not to ruin your day, too bad today,
Speaker 2: So Garrison, today, I want to talk to you about
Speaker 2: some terrible guys that I know you're already pretty familiar with.
Speaker 2: The Goham Defense League the g d L. The g
Speaker 2: d L, there are sort of a loose network of
Speaker 2: neo Nazi trolls, best known for their anti Semitic flyers,
Speaker 2: headed up by a failed rapper named John Minnedeo who
Speaker 2: calls himself Handsome Truth. Handsome Handsome Truth. So there's this
Speaker 2: sort of core cast of characters in Minnedeo's orbit that
Speaker 2: shows up in person, mostly in Florida and Georgia, but
Speaker 2: the group's real strength is online. They have this d
Speaker 2: centralized network of thousands of followers nationwide who are encouraged
Speaker 2: to download and print the anti Semitic flyers and distribute
Speaker 2: them in their area. It's not a new model, right,
Speaker 2: like the clan has been doing this for decades, and
Speaker 2: National Alliance was big into this in the early aughts.
Speaker 2: But that's what they do right in the news every
Speaker 2: few weeks, you know, your local news wherever it is
Speaker 2: that you live. You know, somebody left these racist flyers
Speaker 2: on everyone's front lawn. And I know you and I
Speaker 2: have talked about doing an episode in the future about
Speaker 2: the sort of counter productive responses to these in person demonstrations,
Speaker 2: the flying and the banner drops. There's a new law
Speaker 2: in Florida and a proposed law in Georgia that are
Speaker 2: sort of allegedly aimed at countering anti Semitism, but are
Speaker 2: going to have some sort of counterproductive knock on effects.
Speaker 2: And I hope we can get to that at a
Speaker 2: later date. But today I want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about a little project some GDL members have going on
Speaker 2: the side called the City Council Death Squad.
Speaker 1: Are they going you around in killing city council members?
Speaker 1: Because that's kind of what it sounds like.
Speaker 2: It does sound like, that's kind of that's the energy here.
Speaker 2: They haven't done that yet, yes, But Garrison, how would
Speaker 2: you feel if I told you a former Juggalo calling
Speaker 2: himself Scotty big Balls trying to trying to destroy the
Speaker 2: thing I love most, which is civic engagement in municipal government.
Speaker 1: I have such complicated feelings of Juggalos.
Speaker 2: Oh god, No, I want to be clear. I'm not
Speaker 2: slandering the Juggalo community here, right, Like mister big Ball's
Speaker 2: got his hatchetman tattoo covered up with a big snake
Speaker 2: holding a gun a couple of years ago, so he's
Speaker 2: no longer God that there's a cool name for their community,
Speaker 2: he's no longer a part of the Juggalo community. I
Speaker 2: don't think the jugglos would buy this kind of behavior.
Speaker 1: Generally, not. They are kind of semi cool.
Speaker 2: No, I'm off for chicken hunting, I don't. I don't
Speaker 2: think they abide. No, I by just by happenstance. You know,
Speaker 2: the ICP is not my cup of tea. No, no, shade,
Speaker 2: it's not my cup of tea. But I did see
Speaker 2: them perform with the Lincoln Memorial a couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: and it was the most polite crowd I've ever experienced
Speaker 2: at a live music event. So it hats off to
Speaker 2: the Juggalos. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now, if you're a city
Speaker 2: council meeting enthusiast like myself. You may already be aware
Speaker 2: of the rash of racist zoom bombings disrupting meetings around
Speaker 2: the country over the last nine months or so. Remote
Speaker 2: participation in meetings became nearly ubiquitous during the pandemic, and
Speaker 2: the opportunity to make a public comment without having to
Speaker 2: devote an entire evening to sitting in an uncomfortable chair
Speaker 2: at city hall has made civic engagement more accessible for
Speaker 2: all kinds of people right, not just because of contagion,
Speaker 2: but remote participation benefits everybody, like parents who are managing
Speaker 2: a bedtime routine by the time the public hearing opens
Speaker 2: at eight pm, or sure don't work in nine to five,
Speaker 2: or people without reliable transportation. So it's been a boon
Speaker 2: for local democracy, but it's also created a unique opportunity
Speaker 2: for people who want to ruin that. So last year,
Speaker 2: Scotty big Balls Mister big Balls, the online pseudonym for
Speaker 2: a self described not ze named Harley Ray Petero Junior,
Speaker 2: started a group he calls the City Council Death Squad.
Speaker 2: The group organizes online to find government meetings, mainly city
Speaker 2: and county council meetings all over the country that allow
Speaker 2: public comment by a zoom. Then it coordinates those members
Speaker 2: to sign up for speaking slots, crowding out actual community
Speaker 2: members who are trying to speak on you know, like
Speaker 2: actual matters of local concern. And when the members of
Speaker 2: the group get through, the calls follow a couple of
Speaker 2: predictable paths. Sometimes the caller just starts screaming slurs. Right,
Speaker 2: It's just as soon as they connect, it's just screaming
Speaker 2: the N word over and over and over and over
Speaker 2: and over again until someone can hit the button to
Speaker 2: cut it off. Sometimes they do what they call the
Speaker 2: slow roll, where they start off trying to sound like
Speaker 2: a real caller. You know, they'll say like, you know,
Speaker 2: I have concerns about zoning in my neighborhood, or I,
Speaker 2: you know, I think we should pay the police more,
Speaker 2: and then it veers abruptly into some kind of bizarre
Speaker 2: anti Semitic conspiracy theory about crime or nine to eleven
Speaker 2: or advocating for public lynchings.
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. They it's like, spend a few
Speaker 1: minutes eating up the city council time and then just
Speaker 1: curtail it with some unhinged ramble.
Speaker 2: Right, and then yell the slurs yes, yes, yes. And
Speaker 2: Another favorite of the group is a call format where
Speaker 2: they pretend to be gay or Jewish themselves and then
Speaker 2: ascribe to themselves various traits associated with bigoted stereotypes of their.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: John Menedeo has participated a few times himself, and he
Speaker 2: loves this one. He pretends to be a gay Jewish
Speaker 2: person named Tammy and then says some pretty outrageous things.
Speaker 2: I bet the callers give themselves inside joke names like
Speaker 2: Rudy Hess or Sadie N word, which, when you say
Speaker 2: it out loud, sounds like say the N word, so
Speaker 2: it's like a Seymour Butts kind of thing. It's like
Speaker 2: Bart calling most tavern except it's Nazis.
Speaker 1: Wow, very very clever, on the cutting edge of comedy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Or they'll name themselves after a mass shooter, like Dylan
Speaker 2: Rue for Andraspravic, or you know, sometimes it's like a
Speaker 2: deep cut, like a more obscure killer whose name might
Speaker 2: not arouse suspicion right off the bat, like Jim Adkisson,
Speaker 2: a man who shot eight people at a Unitarian church
Speaker 2: in Knoxville in two thousand and eight during a children's
Speaker 2: production of the musical Annie, because he was angry about
Speaker 2: the church's liberal teachings. So you know those good jokes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is all like kind of like old like
Speaker 1: old school kind of chan humor. It's it's not even
Speaker 1: that popular anymore because it's kind of just out of vogue.
Speaker 1: You're kind of you're kind of outing yourself as like
Speaker 1: a bit of like a not an actual boomer, but
Speaker 1: like it's become a boomer fied this type of humor.
Speaker 1: It's not really ah, this sort of thing that younger,
Speaker 1: more hip neo Nazis are into. They've they have, they have,
Speaker 1: they have moved on, they have they have other other
Speaker 1: horizons of bad jokes.
Speaker 2: So ruining everybody's good time by shouting a racial slur
Speaker 2: is hardly an innovation. But this particular operation has a
Speaker 2: discernal origin. Point. In May of twenty twenty three, Petero,
Speaker 2: that's mister big Balls, if you've forgotten already, and three
Speaker 2: friends showed up in person to a Sacramento City council
Speaker 2: meeting to show their support for Ryan Massano. If you're
Speaker 2: from the Sacramento area, you'd probably know him. Masano a
Speaker 2: former Proud Boy, with several failed runs for office under
Speaker 2: his belt, already had a long history of being disruptive
Speaker 2: in public meetings. In twenty eighteen, he's removed from chambers
Speaker 2: during a Valejo City Council meeting after saying the city
Speaker 2: was quote infested with homosexuals and refusing to be called
Speaker 2: to order by the mayor. The meeting of the same
Speaker 2: body in twenty twenty two, he was picked up and
Speaker 2: carried out after refusing to end his remarks at the
Speaker 2: end of his time. So in twenty twenty three, he's
Speaker 2: attending every meeting of the Sacramento City Council. This has
Speaker 2: been going on for almost two months. He shows up,
Speaker 2: he gets up, he makes his homophobic, racist, and antisemitic remarks,
Speaker 2: but he's keeping with the rules of the meeting and
Speaker 2: they're letting him make his statements. But people aren't happy
Speaker 2: about it. So activists are shooting to show up to
Speaker 2: the meetings. People are showing up with banners, people are
Speaker 2: booing him. People are showing up to counter this, and
Speaker 2: so he puts out a call for backup. So at
Speaker 2: this at this point that Petero shows up with two
Speaker 2: masked associates and a man named Jeffrey Perine, who, like Massano,
Speaker 2: was a proud boy with a failed school board run
Speaker 2: to his name at that time. In twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: paren had recently been arrested outside the home of a
Speaker 2: youth pastor after publicly calling for others to join him
Speaker 2: in going to the pastor's home during a school board
Speaker 2: meeting that had to be adjourned because of Parene's disruptive behavior.
Speaker 2: So we're seeing a pattern emerging here, right at this point,
Speaker 2: We've got two proud boys who keep getting kicked out
Speaker 2: of meetings and failing to run for school board. These
Speaker 2: are people who are seeing the value in kicking up
Speaker 2: some kind of disturbance at a meeting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was like during a time where school
Speaker 1: board meeting disruptions were very popular. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of far right influencers trying to convince their followers to
Speaker 1: run for school boards. This was kind of a very
Speaker 1: particular cultural moment in like twenty twenty two to twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three.
Speaker 2: So they show up to this meeting to support Massano
Speaker 2: and it doesn't go well. One of the guys throws
Speaker 2: a hitler salute. People react angrily. There's a bit of
Speaker 2: a scuffle, it devolves, and the council ends up going
Speaker 2: into recess and clearing the chambers entirely. Everybody has to leave.
Speaker 2: You just can't be in here too much yelling. Everybody's mad.
Speaker 2: Nobody gets arrested, but everybody has to leave, and the
Speaker 2: council ended up continuing the meeting without the public's presence.
Speaker 2: So I think there was a hearing that night on
Speaker 2: an ordinance involving homelessness that people had showed up to
Speaker 2: speak on and they weren't allowed to do that. Now
Speaker 2: council continues their business, but nobody can be there. And
Speaker 2: Patera's alliance with Massano didn't last. They actually butted heads
Speaker 2: almost immediately over optics. Massano preferred to make his long
Speaker 2: winded speeches that, at least in his mind, were more
Speaker 2: palatable to the listener and might more effectively spread his
Speaker 2: message and potentially red pill the listeners. Who's actually angry
Speaker 2: that Potero's troll forward tactic of just shouting slurs and
Speaker 2: obscenities was actually resulting in avenues for public come being
Speaker 2: closed off. In September of twenty twenty three, he wrote
Speaker 2: either out of ignorance, or deliberate sabotage. The GDL has
Speaker 2: no idea what they're doing. So he was mad, right
Speaker 2: because he was doing this thing where every week he
Speaker 2: was showing up to Megan's comment and because of the
Speaker 2: different strategy of disruption that was getting harder for him. Masano,
Speaker 2: for his part, continues his one man battle against the
Speaker 2: Sacramento City Council. He's still doing that.
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, he's a lone wolf out there in Sacramento.
Speaker 2: But Petero saw the potential and trolling on a larger scale, okay,
Speaker 2: almost immediately, he branched out. Over the next few months,
Speaker 2: it developed into an organized trolling machine, targeting meetings across
Speaker 2: the country, covering at least seventeen states, from Alaska to Maine, Idaho, Wyoming, Georgia, Virginia.
Speaker 2: They're all over the place, often hitting the same city repeatedly,
Speaker 2: and in some cases showing up in person with flyers
Speaker 2: or banners either before or after the zoom bombing. After
Speaker 2: targeting meeting in the city of Walnut Creek, California, the
Speaker 2: group hung a racist banner in the area. Councilor Kevin
Speaker 2: Wilk commented on the banner in the press and The
Speaker 2: following week, the meeting was hit again, with members specifically
Speaker 2: addressing wilk the locality's first Jewish city councilor, asking him
Speaker 2: how he liked it. In a later stream, Petero laughed
Speaker 2: about that personalized follow up, saying that pissed him off,
Speaker 2: so I had to rub it in. After targeting the
Speaker 2: city of Wooster, Massachusetts, the group didn't just flyer. They
Speaker 2: mailed homophobic materials to the homes of several councilors, including
Speaker 2: two nuen the state's first openly non binary elected official.
Speaker 2: And it isn't even just regular city council meetings. Some
Speaker 2: of the targeted meetings are incredibly boring governmental bodies like
Speaker 2: the Morristown, New Jersey Board of Zoning Appeals.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: When Petero posted a clip of their racist calls into
Speaker 2: that meeting, a group member posted the board chairs home
Speaker 2: address and the replies. They've also and this doesn't even
Speaker 2: fit the pattern. I think they just got the bug.
Speaker 2: But they've posted several composition videos of the group disrupting
Speaker 2: AA meetings.
Speaker 1: All right, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think I think they just got into the idea
Speaker 2: of making praying phone calls. So they target addiction support
Speaker 2: groups often geared towards members of the LGBTQ community.
Speaker 1: So okay, all right, yeah, just doing.
Speaker 2: Like homophobic attacks on people who are trying to get sober.
Speaker 1: Huh. They're just like finding any any meeting they can
Speaker 1: and just spamming this thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know that they have other hobbies.
Speaker 1: Yes, this seems like a lot of time between keeping
Speaker 1: up on the zoning board meetings and whatever local AA
Speaker 1: call in there is. It seems seems to be a
Speaker 1: bit uh childish and time consuming, right, I.
Speaker 2: Mean this is it takes a lot of time, and
Speaker 2: Potero is pretty clear about that. You know, he runs
Speaker 2: these online spaces where he's organizing. He's you know, making
Speaker 2: lists of meetings that they should check out. He's complaining
Speaker 2: about how, you know, sometimes you have to wait for
Speaker 2: hours while just doing like regular government stuff. You have
Speaker 2: to just like wait for it to be your turnedy
Speaker 2: all the un word. It's time consuming.
Speaker 1: Do you know what isn't time consuming?
Speaker 2: Spending your harder in cash on the products and services
Speaker 2: that support this show.
Speaker 1: That's right. We make it fast, easy and reliable by
Speaker 1: listening to these products and services. Okay, we are back
Speaker 1: talking about the Goyam Defense League, the GDL. So we
Speaker 1: were just discussing how they were spending a lot of
Speaker 1: time disrupting a lot of meetings with their little call
Speaker 1: in campaign.
Speaker 2: Right, And it's tempting to dismiss this behavior as, oh,
Speaker 2: it's just trolling, right, they're just trolls. Sure, so, like
Speaker 2: this is so juvenile.
Speaker 1: How bad can it be? It's just people calling in, right, But.
Speaker 2: This has real world consequences, and they know that. They
Speaker 2: revel in the reactions to their behavior. They're full aware
Speaker 2: of and celebrate the destruction that it leaves in its wake.
Speaker 2: When the city of Portland suspended virtual public comment, commenters
Speaker 2: in the group called it a big effing win when
Speaker 2: there's other media coverage of cities who have limited or
Speaker 2: even ended public comment altogether. The headlines are posted triumphantly
Speaker 2: in the group, often captured only with loll comments like
Speaker 2: the calls will continue until the Jews leave and shut
Speaker 2: it down for the win and never let them regroup
Speaker 2: arrest no comfort given literal the replies to posts about
Speaker 2: city after city ceding ground to this harassment.
Speaker 1: So it's not just causing little inconveniences, it is actually
Speaker 1: shutting down city's ability to hold public comment and for
Speaker 1: the public to actually speak on issues that are affecting
Speaker 1: them and their city. Right.
Speaker 2: So, there have been meetings that, you know, when this occurs,
Speaker 2: the meeting itself, that particular meeting just ends. Everyone just
Speaker 2: leaves because they can't continue, or you know, the meeting
Speaker 2: does continue, but they stop taking public comment, or they
Speaker 2: change their policies and procedures to limit public comment moving forward.
Speaker 2: So this is having real effects that are you know,
Speaker 2: living on in these cities even after they've moved on.
Speaker 2: Group members suggest using burner phones and fake number generators
Speaker 2: to avoid being caught or blocked. Potero has written online
Speaker 2: that he's been quote banned on multiple devices, but I
Speaker 2: have some tactics to prevent them from stopping me. Potero
Speaker 2: noted on a recent stream that the ADL's estimate of
Speaker 2: over one hundred and thirty disruptions is short changing them,
Speaker 2: insisting they've done at least three times that many, sometimes
Speaker 2: hitting dozens of meetings per week, and they're not just
Speaker 2: doing it right, it's not just the act of doing
Speaker 2: it that is the thrill to them. They then cut
Speaker 2: the clips and then post them online for everyone to enjoy.
Speaker 2: They're cutting promos and making highlight reels of their favorite moments.
Speaker 2: There are compilations grouped by genre of hate. Right, there's
Speaker 2: videos combining all the best moments of homophobia, all the
Speaker 2: best moments of anti semitism. There are these promo videos
Speaker 2: set to that sort of ugly electronic fash wave music
Speaker 2: that they all love so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: The promo videos have titles like this is our meeting
Speaker 2: now or We're jacking your shit.
Speaker 1: So these are being shared on like like bitchew and
Speaker 1: Odyssey and Telegram.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing yeah, they're they're you know, GDL, They're on
Speaker 2: They're on every platform that's opened to people like them, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: and following that GDL model, right, they're they're posting these
Speaker 2: these videos and getting money. They're accepting donations to continue
Speaker 2: doing this. And then on the anniversary of Krystall Knocked,
Speaker 2: they targeted a planning commission in the Crescent City, California,
Speaker 2: entitled the video CCDs goes Crystall Knocked on Crescent City. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's it's just a joke, right, They're not really
Speaker 2: doing Christall Knocked, but they're using the language of this
Speaker 2: sort of genocidal violence.
Speaker 1: And it's like monetized. They're like making money off of it.
Speaker 2: They are making making those donos, as they say it.
Speaker 2: After a recent ADL article about the operation, Patero posted,
Speaker 2: fuck the ADL. We'll give those caseler something to covetch about.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, and his wife Haley reposted that,
Speaker 2: adding you think he's playing. He lives for this. They
Speaker 2: don't work. They really do live for this.
Speaker 1: It does sound like this is like the most important
Speaker 1: thing happening in their life, which is one quite sad.
Speaker 1: That also shows that they have a lot of time
Speaker 1: to dedicate to pulling off stuff like this.
Speaker 3: Time that they should be dedicating to parenting. Honestly, Well,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you want them around their kids. Honestly,
Speaker 3: the more time they spend away from their children is
Speaker 3: probably better.
Speaker 2: God damn. During his zoo bombing in October, an official
Speaker 2: in Saucelito, California voiced support for just cutting off the
Speaker 2: calls over objections from other members of council that this
Speaker 2: could get them sued, saying he would quote take the
Speaker 2: lawsuit if these people can even get organized enough to
Speaker 2: sue us. And while the group has made no progress
Speaker 2: on actually filing any legal action there or anywhere else.
Speaker 2: They haven't forgotten it. Just last week the group expressed
Speaker 2: an interest in seeking some kind of retribution for that comment,
Speaker 2: saying they may need a little visit, and the group
Speaker 2: is raising money to start traveling to meetings in person.
Speaker 2: A fundraiser on the platform of choice for right wing extremists,
Speaker 2: give Send Go, has already raised one thousand dollars in
Speaker 2: donations to fund travel and lodging for the group members
Speaker 2: to travel to city council meetings for in person disruptions
Speaker 2: on their weekly live streams. Viewers can donate directly in
Speaker 2: the stream. On the stream, Potero thanks viewers for donations,
Speaker 2: often in the amount of fourteen dollars and eighty eight cents.
Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they they live for the memes, reminding them
Speaker 2: that every donation goes directly towards funding their IRL activism,
Speaker 2: getting them offline and inter real life traveling around the
Speaker 2: country to engage in racial harassment in person. He also
Speaker 2: says the donations fund a side project called postcard Waffen
Speaker 2: the Nazeeni Way.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.
Speaker 3: Say that one bird time just a little slower postcard waffen.
Speaker 3: They love to add postcard waffen. They love to add
Speaker 3: waffen to right, that's just the German word for weapon.
Speaker 3: So this, this is weaponized mailings, and this is the
Speaker 3: nickname they've given to the work of mailing hateful materials
Speaker 3: directly to the homes of the elected officials who preside
Speaker 3: over the meetings they disrupt. This seems like a sort
Speaker 3: of targeted harassment kind of campaign.
Speaker 1: Sure, target harassment, intimidation. There's some with the other like mentions.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like veiled threats. These types of neo
Speaker 1: Nazis are not averse to actually doing violence on people.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's there's a there's like a a pleasant
Speaker 1: threat implied with these with this, with this sort of
Speaker 1: rhetoric and activity, and.
Speaker 2: Because the decentralized nature of the GDL, and I think
Speaker 2: this is something we can talk about in a later
Speaker 2: episode about kind of what they're up to these days.
Speaker 2: Is they don't have communication with or control over all
Speaker 2: of the people who are consuming this content. So they
Speaker 2: may not plan to follow up with these people in
Speaker 2: a manner that would be criminal, but they're encouraging people
Speaker 2: to think that that's an option and that sure has ramifications. Sure,
Speaker 2: so this isn't just annoying prank calls. It's an organized
Speaker 2: effort to ruin local democracy, to make meetings unproductive and unbearable,
Speaker 2: to intimidate and humiliate local government employees and elected officials,
Speaker 2: to make your city council chambers and intimidating an uncomfortable
Speaker 2: place for you, closing off that avenue for you to
Speaker 2: address and engage with your local government, and to take
Speaker 2: away options for actually engaging with local government by forcing
Speaker 2: cities to limit public comment. And we can't sede that
Speaker 2: ground to.
Speaker 1: Them, ah man, that is I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's just been so many instances with city council meetings
Speaker 1: and various other kind of these big public forms, especially
Speaker 1: school board meetings, where like they are like discussing extremely
Speaker 1: important stuff around like trans people and forming policies that
Speaker 1: impact people. And I know a lot of people do
Speaker 1: actually end up going out to these and talking about
Speaker 1: their experiences and why proposed laws or ordinances would be
Speaker 1: so harmful, and just removing that option, whether or not
Speaker 1: you believe in like the elect oral process, tmoving removing
Speaker 1: that option from people to actually speak on their own
Speaker 1: experiences does have like real, real consequences.
Speaker 2: Even if, even if you're not a big believer in
Speaker 2: it being a meaningful political action to engage with your
Speaker 2: local government. I think we can all agree that it's
Speaker 2: not okay for Nazis to make it unsafe for anyone
Speaker 2: to do that. Yeah, you know, who won't seed ground
Speaker 2: to the Nazis trying to take over your local school board?
Speaker 1: The products and services sets the forth this podcast, I hope.
Speaker 1: So it depends capitalism is uh, is quite strong. But
Speaker 1: we'll see how this develops. Okay, we are back. So
Speaker 1: this is this is kind of depressing, Molly. What what?
Speaker 2: Uh huh? What is to be done?
Speaker 1: What is to be done?
Speaker 2: Garrison? Yeah, So unfortunately a lot of the obvious solutions
Speaker 2: here are bad ones. Right. The response that a lot
Speaker 2: of cities have had is that, well, they're just going
Speaker 2: to eliminate remote public comment altogether. You just can't participate
Speaker 2: remotely anymore, which.
Speaker 1: Hurts people who are like disabled, hurts people who have
Speaker 1: tough things with scheduling parents, people who work at certain hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Like most people can't spend six hours
Speaker 2: sitting at city hall on a Monday night. Most people can't,
Speaker 2: and so having remote participation was really it opened up
Speaker 2: local democracy to people with all kinds of life situations, right,
Speaker 2: And that's what happened here in my own city of Charlottesville.
Speaker 2: CCDs targeted us last October, and in response, the mayor
Speaker 2: eliminated remote participation in all meetings. We didn't get to
Speaker 2: revisit that. That's just how it works now, So they've
Speaker 2: moved on. But now my entire city of over fifty
Speaker 2: thousand people lives with the consequences of that action, and
Speaker 2: we're left with a less accessible local democracy. They'd rather
Speaker 2: prevent anyone from calling in than have to deal with
Speaker 2: deciding whether they can do anything about it when someone
Speaker 2: abuses that process. And there's some really basic steps that
Speaker 2: cities can take right off the bat, like without even
Speaker 2: overthinking it or getting into the legal complications of the
Speaker 2: First Amendment. Cities like Lynwood, Washington responded to their ccdas
Speaker 2: zoom bombing by adding a few basic layers of security
Speaker 2: to their virtual meetings, like requiring commenters to sign up
Speaker 2: the day before, so this group is organized in a
Speaker 2: private telegram chat and so like one person gets into
Speaker 2: a meeting and just drops the link into the chat,
Speaker 2: and so everyone just clicks that link. But if you
Speaker 2: make it so everyone has to have a unique sign
Speaker 2: in link that they signed up for with a real
Speaker 2: email address the day prior, that makes a little bit
Speaker 2: harder to coordinate a dog pile. Sure you know, it
Speaker 2: isn't hard to make a fake or temporary email address
Speaker 2: to sign up to get the link, but if sometimes
Speaker 2: just adding one extra step is discouraging enough that they'll
Speaker 2: pick somebody else this week. But this behavior is escalating,
Speaker 2: right and making it a little bit harder to get
Speaker 2: into the zoom isn't going to solve the problem. It's
Speaker 2: going to keep happening. And you can only make a
Speaker 2: public meeting so secure without actually locking out the public.
Speaker 2: Elected officials are understandably concerned about the legal ramifications of
Speaker 2: dealing with these kinds of calls. With some exceptions, they
Speaker 2: can't prevent someone from speaking based only on the content
Speaker 2: of the speech. I actually found a two thousand and
Speaker 2: six letter. I guess in two thousand and six, the
Speaker 2: La City Council asked their city attorney, I need to
Speaker 2: do a little research on what was going on in
Speaker 2: two thousand and six in La. But the LA City
Speaker 2: council asked the city attorney, can we make a rule
Speaker 2: that people can't say racial slurs in here?
Speaker 1: Which seems like an okay rule, Like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: The answer was no. Legally, you can't limit speech based
Speaker 2: on its content, right, because these are public forums put
Speaker 2: on by the government. I mean, it's what's called a
Speaker 2: designated public forum. But we don't. They can't limit speech
Speaker 2: based on its content, right, But what they can do
Speaker 2: is have rules of decorum. Their city attorney pulled some
Speaker 2: language directly from a Ninth Circuit Court opinion that's in California,
Speaker 2: so it's a federal court of appeals that covers that
Speaker 2: part of California. White versus City of Norwalk, and that
Speaker 2: decision upheld the city ordinance that authorized the legislative body
Speaker 2: to remove individuals who uttered quote personal, impertinent, slanderous, or
Speaker 2: profane remarks if the remarks disrupted, disturbed, or otherwise impeded
Speaker 2: the conduct of the meeting. So it's not just that
Speaker 2: your remarks were nasty, it's that your behavior was disruptive.
Speaker 2: The way that these remarks were delivered was interfering with
Speaker 2: the conduct of the meeting. So the meeting is disrupted
Speaker 2: because council is prevented from accomplishing its business in a
Speaker 2: reasonably efficient manner. The court further wrote, indeed, such conduct
Speaker 2: may interfere with the rights of other speakers, and that's
Speaker 2: what's happening here, right that these disruptions are not only
Speaker 2: not your right, you don't have a right to disrupt
Speaker 2: the meeting, but that behavior also fundamentally infringes on everyone
Speaker 2: else's rights to have the meeting. It keeps the meeting
Speaker 2: from being conducted, and it's interfering with the conduct of
Speaker 2: the government's business. So if they open a public forum,
Speaker 2: anyone can speak in the public forum and cut them
Speaker 2: off because of the content of their speech. But that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean there's no legal way to put limits on
Speaker 2: public comment. If the rule is content neutral and serves
Speaker 2: a legitimate government interest, the government can impose some restrictions
Speaker 2: on your speech, right like requiring a permit for a
Speaker 2: parade is a limit on speech, or saying you can't
Speaker 2: yell in a courtroom is a limit on your speech.
Speaker 2: But it's not a violation of your First Amendment rights
Speaker 2: to say you can't disrupt a trial. But more importantly,
Speaker 2: and the risk of getting too boring right, Like a
Speaker 2: meeting is not a sidewalk there is. This is not
Speaker 2: just any public place where you're speaking. This is a
Speaker 2: meeting where business is being conducted. There's a legitimate and
Speaker 2: compelling government interest in the ability to conduct the meeting,
Speaker 2: and so the rules that they can make in this
Speaker 2: space can vary state by state. Some states do or
Speaker 2: don't allow you to limit speakers to residents, or they
Speaker 2: can or can't limit the topics that are germane. So
Speaker 2: it's going to vary a little bit. But the courts
Speaker 2: have repeatedly upheld, not just in the Norwalk case, the
Speaker 2: ability of a council to adopt a content neutral rule
Speaker 2: and use that rule to cut off or remove speakers
Speaker 2: who are disruptive and honest, I have to say, I
Speaker 2: think any city attorney worthist Sault knows this. This is
Speaker 2: day one stuff. If your whole job, well not your
Speaker 2: whole job, but your job on Monday nights or whenever
Speaker 2: the meeting is is to provide legal advice to a
Speaker 2: city council on how they're conducting their business. You know
Speaker 2: this because disruptive behavior during a meeting isn't some brand
Speaker 2: new phenomenon, but It's kind of remarkable what I watched
Speaker 2: like a hundred clips of this happening, right and over
Speaker 2: and over and over again. You see these city attorneys
Speaker 2: saying like, oh, well, we're powerless here, we're powerless here,
Speaker 2: we don't want to get sued. There's nothing we can do,
Speaker 2: and that's not true and they know that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I've seen people get escorted out of
Speaker 1: chambers for being disruptive in city council meetings before. Like
Speaker 1: they it happens relatively frequently. It's not like an uncommon,
Speaker 1: brand new occurrence.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I've seen that discretion applied appropriately and fascistically, right, Like, absolutely,
Speaker 2: it happens, but over and over and over again in
Speaker 2: these situations, you see these city attorneys the city council saying, like,
Speaker 2: I guess we just have to let them do it.
Speaker 2: A commenter in one of the Sacramento meetings from last
Speaker 2: summer actually pointed out that, you know, she was saying
Speaker 2: to her city council, you had no hesitation removing black
Speaker 2: members of the public from this room when they were
Speaker 2: angry that your cops murdered Stefan Clark. So why are
Speaker 2: you so nervous about infringing on the free speech rights
Speaker 2: of literal Nazis. Like someone who's just in here screaming
Speaker 2: the N word, why is that worthy of more breathing room?
Speaker 2: And something you know, as a resident of the city
Speaker 2: of Charlottesville who watches our local government pretty carefully, something
Speaker 2: we found over and over again here is that if
Speaker 2: fear of litigation is your starting point for making decisions
Speaker 2: on how to govern, you're going to make cowardly, dangerous,
Speaker 2: stupid decisions every time, and you're probably going to get
Speaker 2: sued anyway. So make the choice to protect people. Get
Speaker 2: good legal advice, sure, consult with your city attorney, consult
Speaker 2: the case law. Don't be reckless. But if you're faced
Speaker 2: with the opportunity to make a decision that protects people,
Speaker 2: a decision that serves the public good, a decision that
Speaker 2: aligns with the values you claim to hold, but might
Speaker 2: result in someone filing a lawsuit against you that they're
Speaker 2: not going to win anyway, don't err on the side
Speaker 2: of shielding yourself from nuisance litigation at the expense of
Speaker 2: the public. Don't just look at us in shrug. Your
Speaker 2: hands are not tied here. And if you're not comfortable
Speaker 2: making that kind of decision, get off the diis. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm not a city attorney, but that would be my advice, right,
Speaker 2: And so again, I think the bottom line here is
Speaker 2: that we can't see this ground. The end result here
Speaker 2: can't be well, local government just isn't a place where
Speaker 2: we can safely and meaningfully engage with elected officials on
Speaker 2: the issues that matter. That can't be the answer here.
Speaker 2: Don't wait until this is happening where you live to
Speaker 2: react to this, right like, it could happen here. It
Speaker 2: is happening in a lot of places. You know, if
Speaker 2: you're inclined to do so, you know, show up, engage,
Speaker 2: speak your mind on local issues. Don't wait for your
Speaker 2: city hall to become a battleground to show up to
Speaker 2: counter right wing influence, right like, don't just react to reactionaries.
Speaker 2: Stake out that ground now, that's our space. Right. Make
Speaker 2: it clear that people are engaged and that they insist
Speaker 2: on their right to engage, so that your city council
Speaker 2: can't say, well, people aren't really making public comments anyway,
Speaker 2: we just won't have it. And let make sure that
Speaker 2: they know that you will not accept the death of
Speaker 2: local democracy at the hands of some Weasley paradox of
Speaker 2: tolerance bullshit about letting Nazis dominate our spaces.
Speaker 1: I know there's been other people who've been like talking
Speaker 1: about and pointing out these instances of GDL zoom bombing
Speaker 1: and shutting down these meetings, but there certainly has been
Speaker 1: less discussion of this being a deliberate tactic that GDL
Speaker 1: is doing specifically to actually like shutting down the democratic process,
Speaker 1: like it has been so so focused on just like
Speaker 1: the trolling and the spreading of any Semitic rhetoric, which
Speaker 1: are big problems. But I think there's been a little
Speaker 1: bit less of a focus on actually looking at this
Speaker 1: as a deliberate tactic being employed to remove people's ability
Speaker 1: to engage democratically in the city or school board or
Speaker 1: wherever they live. And I think viewing it as a
Speaker 1: deliberate tactic like that like you've been talking about, but
Speaker 1: both gets like a better look at how these neo
Speaker 1: Nazis are trying to organize. But also it's a more
Speaker 1: holistic approach towards why is this happening, And it can
Speaker 1: allow you to look at this as more of a
Speaker 1: tactical decision less than just kind of random trolling slurs XD,
Speaker 1: which it can be kind of reduced to, which is
Speaker 1: at the very least incomplete way of looking at this phenomenon,
Speaker 1: if not just kind of wholly inaccurate.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to give them too much credit, right, Like,
Speaker 2: they didn't have a brainstorming session where they were thinking
Speaker 2: about ways to contribute to the death of democracy. I
Speaker 2: think that's just sort of a phenomenon that occurred as
Speaker 2: a result of their actions that they then saw and appreciated, right,
Speaker 2: So it's not that they don't understand it, but I
Speaker 2: don't think they intended it from the outset. But at
Speaker 2: this point it's hard to deny that that is something
Speaker 2: they're doing on purpose.
Speaker 1: And that's just been an interesting trend with the GDL specifically,
Speaker 1: especially considering the legislation trying to crack down on political flying,
Speaker 1: which we might talk about at a later date. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been a interesting watching the GDLs as political force
Speaker 1: that yes, is like annoying and bad in the rhetoric
Speaker 1: they spread, but also they've had this interesting ability to
Speaker 1: just either affect legislation or like shut down people's ability
Speaker 1: to engage with politics in their local area in a
Speaker 1: few notable ways.
Speaker 2: So it's important to sort of sit for a minute
Speaker 2: before you react to people like this, Right, Like you
Speaker 2: were talking about that legislation that's going to end up
Speaker 2: infringing on a lot of people's political speech. Right, can't
Speaker 2: just react to the troll. You have to sort of
Speaker 2: think about the context in which this is occurring and
Speaker 2: make a reasonable choice about how to react so you
Speaker 2: don't end up giving them what they want, basically, right,
Speaker 2: because they love the attention. They love the attention. Every
Speaker 2: time they do this, it ends up on the local news.
Speaker 2: People are talking about it, people are repeating their message,
Speaker 2: and you don't need to give them that.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you Molly for putting this together. This has
Speaker 1: been very enlightening, if slightly upsetting, but that is kind
Speaker 1: of it's kind that's kind of the entire bit we do.
Speaker 2: Here, that sort of the show.
Speaker 1: Huh, where can people find your work online?
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter. I will never call
Speaker 2: it x socialist dog mom. And in keeping with the
Speaker 2: spirit of this episode, most of what I use my
Speaker 2: Twitter account for is live tweeting my local city government meetings.
Speaker 2: I've been doing that for god seven years now. So
Speaker 2: this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart.
Speaker 2: I love engaging with municipal government, fantastic. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've attended more city council meetings the last year than
Speaker 1: I have ever before in my life, and it has
Speaker 1: certainly been an experience. A lot of wacky, wacky and
Speaker 1: unusual things happen in city council meetings.
Speaker 2: Thank you Garrison so much for joining me today, and
Speaker 2: hopefully we can bring the listeners something even worse someday soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, stay tuned for more breaking Goiam Defense League
Speaker 1: News fucking dark.
Speaker 2: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening