1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to It Could Happen Here, your 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: favorite daily podcast about the studied dissolution of society as 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: we know it. I'm your guest host, Molly Conger, joined 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: once again by our friend Garrison. 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: Hello. Happy to look at the abyss once again. 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, trying not to ruin your day, too bad today, 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: So Garrison, today, I want to talk to you about 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: some terrible guys that I know you're already pretty familiar with. 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: The Goham Defense League the g d L. The g 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: d L, there are sort of a loose network of 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: neo Nazi trolls, best known for their anti Semitic flyers, 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: headed up by a failed rapper named John Minnedeo who 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: calls himself Handsome Truth. Handsome Handsome Truth. So there's this 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: sort of core cast of characters in Minnedeo's orbit that 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: shows up in person, mostly in Florida and Georgia, but 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: the group's real strength is online. They have this d 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: centralized network of thousands of followers nationwide who are encouraged 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: to download and print the anti Semitic flyers and distribute 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: them in their area. It's not a new model, right, 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: like the clan has been doing this for decades, and 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: National Alliance was big into this in the early aughts. 23 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: But that's what they do right in the news every 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 2: few weeks, you know, your local news wherever it is 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: that you live. You know, somebody left these racist flyers 26 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: on everyone's front lawn. And I know you and I 27 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: have talked about doing an episode in the future about 28 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: the sort of counter productive responses to these in person demonstrations, 29 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: the flying and the banner drops. There's a new law 30 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: in Florida and a proposed law in Georgia that are 31 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: sort of allegedly aimed at countering anti Semitism, but are 32 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 2: going to have some sort of counterproductive knock on effects. 33 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: And I hope we can get to that at a 34 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: later date. But today I want to talk to you 35 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 2: about a little project some GDL members have going on 36 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: the side called the City Council Death Squad. 37 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: Are they going you around in killing city council members? 38 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: Because that's kind of what it sounds like. 39 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: It does sound like, that's kind of that's the energy here. 40 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: They haven't done that yet, yes, But Garrison, how would 41 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: you feel if I told you a former Juggalo calling 42 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: himself Scotty big Balls trying to trying to destroy the 43 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: thing I love most, which is civic engagement in municipal government. 44 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: I have such complicated feelings of Juggalos. 45 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Oh god, No, I want to be clear. I'm not 46 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: slandering the Juggalo community here, right, Like mister big Ball's 47 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: got his hatchetman tattoo covered up with a big snake 48 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: holding a gun a couple of years ago, so he's 49 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: no longer God that there's a cool name for their community, 50 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: he's no longer a part of the Juggalo community. I 51 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: don't think the jugglos would buy this kind of behavior. 52 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: Generally, not. They are kind of semi cool. 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: No, I'm off for chicken hunting, I don't. I don't 54 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: think they abide. No, I by just by happenstance. You know, 55 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 2: the ICP is not my cup of tea. No, no, shade, 56 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: it's not my cup of tea. But I did see 57 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: them perform with the Lincoln Memorial a couple of years ago, 58 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: and it was the most polite crowd I've ever experienced 59 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 2: at a live music event. So it hats off to 60 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: the Juggalos. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now, if you're a city 61 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: council meeting enthusiast like myself. You may already be aware 62 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: of the rash of racist zoom bombings disrupting meetings around 63 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: the country over the last nine months or so. Remote 64 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: participation in meetings became nearly ubiquitous during the pandemic, and 65 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 2: the opportunity to make a public comment without having to 66 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: devote an entire evening to sitting in an uncomfortable chair 67 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: at city hall has made civic engagement more accessible for 68 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: all kinds of people right, not just because of contagion, 69 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: but remote participation benefits everybody, like parents who are managing 70 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 2: a bedtime routine by the time the public hearing opens 71 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: at eight pm, or sure don't work in nine to five, 72 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: or people without reliable transportation. So it's been a boon 73 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: for local democracy, but it's also created a unique opportunity 74 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 2: for people who want to ruin that. So last year, 75 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: Scotty big Balls Mister big Balls, the online pseudonym for 76 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: a self described not ze named Harley Ray Petero Junior, 77 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: started a group he calls the City Council Death Squad. 78 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: The group organizes online to find government meetings, mainly city 79 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: and county council meetings all over the country that allow 80 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: public comment by a zoom. Then it coordinates those members 81 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: to sign up for speaking slots, crowding out actual community 82 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: members who are trying to speak on you know, like 83 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: actual matters of local concern. And when the members of 84 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: the group get through, the calls follow a couple of 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: predictable paths. Sometimes the caller just starts screaming slurs. Right, 86 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 2: It's just as soon as they connect, it's just screaming 87 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 2: the N word over and over and over and over 88 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: and over again until someone can hit the button to 89 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: cut it off. Sometimes they do what they call the 90 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: slow roll, where they start off trying to sound like 91 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: a real caller. You know, they'll say like, you know, 92 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: I have concerns about zoning in my neighborhood, or I, 93 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: you know, I think we should pay the police more, 94 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: and then it veers abruptly into some kind of bizarre 95 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 2: anti Semitic conspiracy theory about crime or nine to eleven 96 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: or advocating for public lynchings. 97 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. They it's like, spend a few 98 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: minutes eating up the city council time and then just 99 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: curtail it with some unhinged ramble. 100 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 2: Right, and then yell the slurs yes, yes, yes. And 101 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: Another favorite of the group is a call format where 102 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: they pretend to be gay or Jewish themselves and then 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: ascribe to themselves various traits associated with bigoted stereotypes of their. 104 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah, yeah yeah. 105 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 2: John Menedeo has participated a few times himself, and he 106 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 2: loves this one. He pretends to be a gay Jewish 107 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: person named Tammy and then says some pretty outrageous things. 108 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: I bet the callers give themselves inside joke names like 109 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: Rudy Hess or Sadie N word, which, when you say 110 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: it out loud, sounds like say the N word, so 111 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: it's like a Seymour Butts kind of thing. It's like 112 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: Bart calling most tavern except it's Nazis. 113 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: Wow, very very clever, on the cutting edge of comedy. Yeah. 114 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: Or they'll name themselves after a mass shooter, like Dylan 115 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: Rue for Andraspravic, or you know, sometimes it's like a 116 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: deep cut, like a more obscure killer whose name might 117 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: not arouse suspicion right off the bat, like Jim Adkisson, 118 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: a man who shot eight people at a Unitarian church 119 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: in Knoxville in two thousand and eight during a children's 120 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 2: production of the musical Annie, because he was angry about 121 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 2: the church's liberal teachings. So you know those good jokes. 122 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is all like kind of like old like 123 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: old school kind of chan humor. It's it's not even 124 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: that popular anymore because it's kind of just out of vogue. 125 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: You're kind of you're kind of outing yourself as like 126 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: a bit of like a not an actual boomer, but 127 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: like it's become a boomer fied this type of humor. 128 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: It's not really ah, this sort of thing that younger, 129 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: more hip neo Nazis are into. They've they have, they have, 130 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: they have moved on, they have they have other other 131 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: horizons of bad jokes. 132 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,559 Speaker 2: So ruining everybody's good time by shouting a racial slur 133 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: is hardly an innovation. But this particular operation has a 134 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: discernal origin. Point. In May of twenty twenty three, Petero, 135 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 2: that's mister big Balls, if you've forgotten already, and three 136 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: friends showed up in person to a Sacramento City council 137 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: meeting to show their support for Ryan Massano. If you're 138 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: from the Sacramento area, you'd probably know him. Masano a 139 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 2: former Proud Boy, with several failed runs for office under 140 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: his belt, already had a long history of being disruptive 141 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: in public meetings. In twenty eighteen, he's removed from chambers 142 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: during a Valejo City Council meeting after saying the city 143 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: was quote infested with homosexuals and refusing to be called 144 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: to order by the mayor. The meeting of the same 145 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: body in twenty twenty two, he was picked up and 146 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: carried out after refusing to end his remarks at the 147 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: end of his time. So in twenty twenty three, he's 148 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: attending every meeting of the Sacramento City Council. This has 149 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: been going on for almost two months. He shows up, 150 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: he gets up, he makes his homophobic, racist, and antisemitic remarks, 151 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: but he's keeping with the rules of the meeting and 152 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: they're letting him make his statements. But people aren't happy 153 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: about it. So activists are shooting to show up to 154 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: the meetings. People are showing up with banners, people are 155 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: booing him. People are showing up to counter this, and 156 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: so he puts out a call for backup. So at 157 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: this at this point that Petero shows up with two 158 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 2: masked associates and a man named Jeffrey Perine, who, like Massano, 159 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: was a proud boy with a failed school board run 160 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: to his name at that time. In twenty twenty three, 161 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: paren had recently been arrested outside the home of a 162 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: youth pastor after publicly calling for others to join him 163 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: in going to the pastor's home during a school board 164 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: meeting that had to be adjourned because of Parene's disruptive behavior. 165 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: So we're seeing a pattern emerging here, right at this point, 166 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: We've got two proud boys who keep getting kicked out 167 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 2: of meetings and failing to run for school board. These 168 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: are people who are seeing the value in kicking up 169 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: some kind of disturbance at a meeting. 170 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this was like during a time where school 171 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: board meeting disruptions were very popular. There was a lot 172 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: of far right influencers trying to convince their followers to 173 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: run for school boards. This was kind of a very 174 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: particular cultural moment in like twenty twenty two to twenty 175 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: twenty three. 176 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: So they show up to this meeting to support Massano 177 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: and it doesn't go well. One of the guys throws 178 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: a hitler salute. People react angrily. There's a bit of 179 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 2: a scuffle, it devolves, and the council ends up going 180 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: into recess and clearing the chambers entirely. Everybody has to leave. 181 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: You just can't be in here too much yelling. Everybody's mad. 182 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: Nobody gets arrested, but everybody has to leave, and the 183 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 2: council ended up continuing the meeting without the public's presence. 184 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: So I think there was a hearing that night on 185 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: an ordinance involving homelessness that people had showed up to 186 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: speak on and they weren't allowed to do that. Now 187 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: council continues their business, but nobody can be there. And 188 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: Patera's alliance with Massano didn't last. They actually butted heads 189 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: almost immediately over optics. Massano preferred to make his long 190 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: winded speeches that, at least in his mind, were more 191 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: palatable to the listener and might more effectively spread his 192 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: message and potentially red pill the listeners. Who's actually angry 193 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: that Potero's troll forward tactic of just shouting slurs and 194 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: obscenities was actually resulting in avenues for public come being 195 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: closed off. In September of twenty twenty three, he wrote 196 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: either out of ignorance, or deliberate sabotage. The GDL has 197 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: no idea what they're doing. So he was mad, right 198 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: because he was doing this thing where every week he 199 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: was showing up to Megan's comment and because of the 200 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: different strategy of disruption that was getting harder for him. Masano, 201 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: for his part, continues his one man battle against the 202 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: Sacramento City Council. He's still doing that. 203 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: Oh, okay, he's a lone wolf out there in Sacramento. 204 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: But Petero saw the potential and trolling on a larger scale, okay, 205 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 2: almost immediately, he branched out. Over the next few months, 206 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: it developed into an organized trolling machine, targeting meetings across 207 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: the country, covering at least seventeen states, from Alaska to Maine, Idaho, Wyoming, Georgia, Virginia. 208 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: They're all over the place, often hitting the same city repeatedly, 209 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: and in some cases showing up in person with flyers 210 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: or banners either before or after the zoom bombing. After 211 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 2: targeting meeting in the city of Walnut Creek, California, the 212 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: group hung a racist banner in the area. Councilor Kevin 213 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: Wilk commented on the banner in the press and The 214 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: following week, the meeting was hit again, with members specifically 215 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: addressing wilk the locality's first Jewish city councilor, asking him 216 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: how he liked it. In a later stream, Petero laughed 217 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: about that personalized follow up, saying that pissed him off, 218 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: so I had to rub it in. After targeting the 219 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 2: city of Wooster, Massachusetts, the group didn't just flyer. They 220 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: mailed homophobic materials to the homes of several councilors, including 221 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: two nuen the state's first openly non binary elected official. 222 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 2: And it isn't even just regular city council meetings. Some 223 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 2: of the targeted meetings are incredibly boring governmental bodies like 224 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: the Morristown, New Jersey Board of Zoning Appeals. 225 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 226 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: When Petero posted a clip of their racist calls into 227 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: that meeting, a group member posted the board chairs home 228 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: address and the replies. They've also and this doesn't even 229 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: fit the pattern. I think they just got the bug. 230 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 2: But they've posted several composition videos of the group disrupting 231 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: AA meetings. 232 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: All right, that's interesting. 233 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: I think I think they just got into the idea 234 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: of making praying phone calls. So they target addiction support 235 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: groups often geared towards members of the LGBTQ community. 236 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: So okay, all right, yeah, just doing. 237 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 2: Like homophobic attacks on people who are trying to get sober. 238 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: Huh. They're just like finding any any meeting they can 239 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: and just spamming this thing. 240 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: I don't know that they have other hobbies. 241 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: Yes, this seems like a lot of time between keeping 242 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: up on the zoning board meetings and whatever local AA 243 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: call in there is. It seems seems to be a 244 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: bit uh childish and time consuming, right, I. 245 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: Mean this is it takes a lot of time, and 246 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: Potero is pretty clear about that. You know, he runs 247 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: these online spaces where he's organizing. He's you know, making 248 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: lists of meetings that they should check out. He's complaining 249 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: about how, you know, sometimes you have to wait for 250 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: hours while just doing like regular government stuff. You have 251 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: to just like wait for it to be your turnedy 252 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: all the un word. It's time consuming. 253 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: Do you know what isn't time consuming? 254 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: Spending your harder in cash on the products and services 255 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: that support this show. 256 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: That's right. We make it fast, easy and reliable by 257 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: listening to these products and services. Okay, we are back 258 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: talking about the Goyam Defense League, the GDL. So we 259 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: were just discussing how they were spending a lot of 260 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: time disrupting a lot of meetings with their little call 261 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: in campaign. 262 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: Right, And it's tempting to dismiss this behavior as, oh, 263 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 2: it's just trolling, right, they're just trolls. Sure, so, like 264 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: this is so juvenile. 265 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: How bad can it be? It's just people calling in, right, But. 266 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: This has real world consequences, and they know that. They 267 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 2: revel in the reactions to their behavior. They're full aware 268 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: of and celebrate the destruction that it leaves in its wake. 269 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: When the city of Portland suspended virtual public comment, commenters 270 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: in the group called it a big effing win when 271 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: there's other media coverage of cities who have limited or 272 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: even ended public comment altogether. The headlines are posted triumphantly 273 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: in the group, often captured only with loll comments like 274 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: the calls will continue until the Jews leave and shut 275 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: it down for the win and never let them regroup 276 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: arrest no comfort given literal the replies to posts about 277 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: city after city ceding ground to this harassment. 278 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: So it's not just causing little inconveniences, it is actually 279 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: shutting down city's ability to hold public comment and for 280 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: the public to actually speak on issues that are affecting 281 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: them and their city. Right. 282 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: So, there have been meetings that, you know, when this occurs, 283 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: the meeting itself, that particular meeting just ends. Everyone just 284 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: leaves because they can't continue, or you know, the meeting 285 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: does continue, but they stop taking public comment, or they 286 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: change their policies and procedures to limit public comment moving forward. 287 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: So this is having real effects that are you know, 288 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: living on in these cities even after they've moved on. 289 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 2: Group members suggest using burner phones and fake number generators 290 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: to avoid being caught or blocked. Potero has written online 291 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: that he's been quote banned on multiple devices, but I 292 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 2: have some tactics to prevent them from stopping me. Potero 293 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 2: noted on a recent stream that the ADL's estimate of 294 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: over one hundred and thirty disruptions is short changing them, 295 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: insisting they've done at least three times that many, sometimes 296 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: hitting dozens of meetings per week, and they're not just 297 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: doing it right, it's not just the act of doing 298 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: it that is the thrill to them. They then cut 299 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: the clips and then post them online for everyone to enjoy. 300 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: They're cutting promos and making highlight reels of their favorite moments. 301 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: There are compilations grouped by genre of hate. Right, there's 302 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: videos combining all the best moments of homophobia, all the 303 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 2: best moments of anti semitism. There are these promo videos 304 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: set to that sort of ugly electronic fash wave music 305 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: that they all love so much. 306 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 307 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: The promo videos have titles like this is our meeting 308 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: now or We're jacking your shit. 309 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: So these are being shared on like like bitchew and 310 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: Odyssey and Telegram. 311 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: I'm guessing yeah, they're they're you know, GDL, They're on 312 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: They're on every platform that's opened to people like them, right, Okay, 313 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: and following that GDL model, right, they're they're posting these 314 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: these videos and getting money. They're accepting donations to continue 315 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: doing this. And then on the anniversary of Krystall Knocked, 316 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: they targeted a planning commission in the Crescent City, California, 317 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: entitled the video CCDs goes Crystall Knocked on Crescent City. Right, 318 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 2: So it's it's just a joke, right, They're not really 319 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: doing Christall Knocked, but they're using the language of this 320 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: sort of genocidal violence. 321 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: And it's like monetized. They're like making money off of it. 322 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: They are making making those donos, as they say it. 323 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: After a recent ADL article about the operation, Patero posted, 324 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: fuck the ADL. We'll give those caseler something to covetch about. 325 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, and his wife Haley reposted that, 326 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: adding you think he's playing. He lives for this. They 327 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: don't work. They really do live for this. 328 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: It does sound like this is like the most important 329 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: thing happening in their life, which is one quite sad. 330 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: That also shows that they have a lot of time 331 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: to dedicate to pulling off stuff like this. 332 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 3: Time that they should be dedicating to parenting. Honestly, Well, 333 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: I don't know if you want them around their kids. Honestly, 334 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: the more time they spend away from their children is 335 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: probably better. 336 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: God damn. During his zoo bombing in October, an official 337 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 2: in Saucelito, California voiced support for just cutting off the 338 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: calls over objections from other members of council that this 339 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 2: could get them sued, saying he would quote take the 340 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: lawsuit if these people can even get organized enough to 341 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 2: sue us. And while the group has made no progress 342 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: on actually filing any legal action there or anywhere else. 343 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: They haven't forgotten it. Just last week the group expressed 344 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 2: an interest in seeking some kind of retribution for that comment, 345 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 2: saying they may need a little visit, and the group 346 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: is raising money to start traveling to meetings in person. 347 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 2: A fundraiser on the platform of choice for right wing extremists, 348 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: give Send Go, has already raised one thousand dollars in 349 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: donations to fund travel and lodging for the group members 350 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 2: to travel to city council meetings for in person disruptions 351 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: on their weekly live streams. Viewers can donate directly in 352 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: the stream. On the stream, Potero thanks viewers for donations, 353 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: often in the amount of fourteen dollars and eighty eight cents. 354 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense. 355 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they they live for the memes, reminding them 356 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: that every donation goes directly towards funding their IRL activism, 357 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: getting them offline and inter real life traveling around the 358 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: country to engage in racial harassment in person. He also 359 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: says the donations fund a side project called postcard Waffen 360 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: the Nazeeni Way. 361 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. 362 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: Say that one bird time just a little slower postcard waffen. 363 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 3: They love to add postcard waffen. They love to add 364 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: waffen to right, that's just the German word for weapon. 365 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: So this, this is weaponized mailings, and this is the 366 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 3: nickname they've given to the work of mailing hateful materials 367 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 3: directly to the homes of the elected officials who preside 368 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 3: over the meetings they disrupt. This seems like a sort 369 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: of targeted harassment kind of campaign. 370 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: Sure, target harassment, intimidation. There's some with the other like mentions. 371 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's like veiled threats. These types of neo 372 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: Nazis are not averse to actually doing violence on people. 373 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's there's a there's like a a pleasant 374 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: threat implied with these with this, with this sort of 375 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: rhetoric and activity, and. 376 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: Because the decentralized nature of the GDL, and I think 377 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 2: this is something we can talk about in a later 378 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: episode about kind of what they're up to these days. 379 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: Is they don't have communication with or control over all 380 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: of the people who are consuming this content. So they 381 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: may not plan to follow up with these people in 382 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: a manner that would be criminal, but they're encouraging people 383 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 2: to think that that's an option and that sure has ramifications. Sure, 384 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: so this isn't just annoying prank calls. It's an organized 385 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: effort to ruin local democracy, to make meetings unproductive and unbearable, 386 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: to intimidate and humiliate local government employees and elected officials, 387 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 2: to make your city council chambers and intimidating an uncomfortable 388 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: place for you, closing off that avenue for you to 389 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: address and engage with your local government, and to take 390 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: away options for actually engaging with local government by forcing 391 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: cities to limit public comment. And we can't sede that 392 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 2: ground to. 393 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: Them, ah man, that is I mean, I don't know. 394 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: There's just been so many instances with city council meetings 395 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: and various other kind of these big public forms, especially 396 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: school board meetings, where like they are like discussing extremely 397 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: important stuff around like trans people and forming policies that 398 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: impact people. And I know a lot of people do 399 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: actually end up going out to these and talking about 400 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: their experiences and why proposed laws or ordinances would be 401 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: so harmful, and just removing that option, whether or not 402 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: you believe in like the elect oral process, tmoving removing 403 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: that option from people to actually speak on their own 404 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: experiences does have like real, real consequences. 405 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: Even if, even if you're not a big believer in 406 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: it being a meaningful political action to engage with your 407 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: local government. I think we can all agree that it's 408 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: not okay for Nazis to make it unsafe for anyone 409 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: to do that. Yeah, you know, who won't seed ground 410 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 2: to the Nazis trying to take over your local school board? 411 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: The products and services sets the forth this podcast, I hope. 412 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: So it depends capitalism is uh, is quite strong. But 413 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: we'll see how this develops. Okay, we are back. So 414 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: this is this is kind of depressing, Molly. What what? 415 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 2: Uh huh? What is to be done? 416 00:21:58,520 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: What is to be done? 417 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: Garrison? Yeah, So unfortunately a lot of the obvious solutions 418 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 2: here are bad ones. Right. The response that a lot 419 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,239 Speaker 2: of cities have had is that, well, they're just going 420 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 2: to eliminate remote public comment altogether. You just can't participate 421 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 2: remotely anymore, which. 422 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: Hurts people who are like disabled, hurts people who have 423 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: tough things with scheduling parents, people who work at certain hours. 424 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Like most people can't spend six hours 425 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 2: sitting at city hall on a Monday night. Most people can't, 426 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: and so having remote participation was really it opened up 427 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: local democracy to people with all kinds of life situations, right, 428 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: And that's what happened here in my own city of Charlottesville. 429 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: CCDs targeted us last October, and in response, the mayor 430 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 2: eliminated remote participation in all meetings. We didn't get to 431 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: revisit that. That's just how it works now, So they've 432 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: moved on. But now my entire city of over fifty 433 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 2: thousand people lives with the consequences of that action, and 434 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 2: we're left with a less accessible local democracy. They'd rather 435 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 2: prevent anyone from calling in than have to deal with 436 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: deciding whether they can do anything about it when someone 437 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 2: abuses that process. And there's some really basic steps that 438 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 2: cities can take right off the bat, like without even 439 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 2: overthinking it or getting into the legal complications of the 440 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 2: First Amendment. Cities like Lynwood, Washington responded to their ccdas 441 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: zoom bombing by adding a few basic layers of security 442 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: to their virtual meetings, like requiring commenters to sign up 443 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: the day before, so this group is organized in a 444 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 2: private telegram chat and so like one person gets into 445 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: a meeting and just drops the link into the chat, 446 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: and so everyone just clicks that link. But if you 447 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: make it so everyone has to have a unique sign 448 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: in link that they signed up for with a real 449 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 2: email address the day prior, that makes a little bit 450 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: harder to coordinate a dog pile. Sure you know, it 451 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: isn't hard to make a fake or temporary email address 452 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: to sign up to get the link, but if sometimes 453 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: just adding one extra step is discouraging enough that they'll 454 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: pick somebody else this week. But this behavior is escalating, 455 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: right and making it a little bit harder to get 456 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: into the zoom isn't going to solve the problem. It's 457 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: going to keep happening. And you can only make a 458 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: public meeting so secure without actually locking out the public. 459 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: Elected officials are understandably concerned about the legal ramifications of 460 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: dealing with these kinds of calls. With some exceptions, they 461 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: can't prevent someone from speaking based only on the content 462 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: of the speech. I actually found a two thousand and 463 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: six letter. I guess in two thousand and six, the 464 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: La City Council asked their city attorney, I need to 465 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 2: do a little research on what was going on in 466 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: two thousand and six in La. But the LA City 467 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: council asked the city attorney, can we make a rule 468 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 2: that people can't say racial slurs in here? 469 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: Which seems like an okay rule, Like, I don't know. 470 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: The answer was no. Legally, you can't limit speech based 471 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: on its content, right, because these are public forums put 472 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: on by the government. I mean, it's what's called a 473 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: designated public forum. But we don't. They can't limit speech 474 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: based on its content, right, But what they can do 475 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: is have rules of decorum. Their city attorney pulled some 476 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: language directly from a Ninth Circuit Court opinion that's in California, 477 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: so it's a federal court of appeals that covers that 478 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: part of California. White versus City of Norwalk, and that 479 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: decision upheld the city ordinance that authorized the legislative body 480 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: to remove individuals who uttered quote personal, impertinent, slanderous, or 481 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: profane remarks if the remarks disrupted, disturbed, or otherwise impeded 482 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: the conduct of the meeting. So it's not just that 483 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 2: your remarks were nasty, it's that your behavior was disruptive. 484 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: The way that these remarks were delivered was interfering with 485 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: the conduct of the meeting. So the meeting is disrupted 486 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: because council is prevented from accomplishing its business in a 487 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: reasonably efficient manner. The court further wrote, indeed, such conduct 488 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: may interfere with the rights of other speakers, and that's 489 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: what's happening here, right that these disruptions are not only 490 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 2: not your right, you don't have a right to disrupt 491 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: the meeting, but that behavior also fundamentally infringes on everyone 492 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: else's rights to have the meeting. It keeps the meeting 493 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: from being conducted, and it's interfering with the conduct of 494 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: the government's business. So if they open a public forum, 495 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,479 Speaker 2: anyone can speak in the public forum and cut them 496 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: off because of the content of their speech. But that 497 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 2: doesn't mean there's no legal way to put limits on 498 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: public comment. If the rule is content neutral and serves 499 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: a legitimate government interest, the government can impose some restrictions 500 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 2: on your speech, right like requiring a permit for a 501 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: parade is a limit on speech, or saying you can't 502 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: yell in a courtroom is a limit on your speech. 503 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: But it's not a violation of your First Amendment rights 504 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: to say you can't disrupt a trial. But more importantly, 505 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: and the risk of getting too boring right, Like a 506 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: meeting is not a sidewalk there is. This is not 507 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 2: just any public place where you're speaking. This is a 508 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 2: meeting where business is being conducted. There's a legitimate and 509 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 2: compelling government interest in the ability to conduct the meeting, 510 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 2: and so the rules that they can make in this 511 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 2: space can vary state by state. Some states do or 512 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: don't allow you to limit speakers to residents, or they 513 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: can or can't limit the topics that are germane. So 514 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: it's going to vary a little bit. But the courts 515 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: have repeatedly upheld, not just in the Norwalk case, the 516 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: ability of a council to adopt a content neutral rule 517 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: and use that rule to cut off or remove speakers 518 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 2: who are disruptive and honest, I have to say, I 519 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: think any city attorney worthist Sault knows this. This is 520 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 2: day one stuff. If your whole job, well not your 521 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: whole job, but your job on Monday nights or whenever 522 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: the meeting is is to provide legal advice to a 523 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: city council on how they're conducting their business. You know 524 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 2: this because disruptive behavior during a meeting isn't some brand 525 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: new phenomenon, but It's kind of remarkable what I watched 526 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: like a hundred clips of this happening, right and over 527 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: and over and over again. You see these city attorneys 528 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 2: saying like, oh, well, we're powerless here, we're powerless here, 529 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 2: we don't want to get sued. There's nothing we can do, 530 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: and that's not true and they know that. 531 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I've seen people get escorted out of 532 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: chambers for being disruptive in city council meetings before. Like 533 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: they it happens relatively frequently. It's not like an uncommon, 534 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: brand new occurrence. 535 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I've seen that discretion applied appropriately and fascistically, right, Like, absolutely, 536 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: it happens, but over and over and over again in 537 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 2: these situations, you see these city attorneys the city council saying, like, 538 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 2: I guess we just have to let them do it. 539 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 2: A commenter in one of the Sacramento meetings from last 540 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: summer actually pointed out that, you know, she was saying 541 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: to her city council, you had no hesitation removing black 542 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: members of the public from this room when they were 543 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: angry that your cops murdered Stefan Clark. So why are 544 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 2: you so nervous about infringing on the free speech rights 545 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: of literal Nazis. Like someone who's just in here screaming 546 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: the N word, why is that worthy of more breathing room? 547 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: And something you know, as a resident of the city 548 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: of Charlottesville who watches our local government pretty carefully, something 549 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: we found over and over again here is that if 550 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: fear of litigation is your starting point for making decisions 551 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: on how to govern, you're going to make cowardly, dangerous, 552 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: stupid decisions every time, and you're probably going to get 553 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: sued anyway. So make the choice to protect people. Get 554 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: good legal advice, sure, consult with your city attorney, consult 555 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: the case law. Don't be reckless. But if you're faced 556 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: with the opportunity to make a decision that protects people, 557 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: a decision that serves the public good, a decision that 558 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: aligns with the values you claim to hold, but might 559 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: result in someone filing a lawsuit against you that they're 560 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 2: not going to win anyway, don't err on the side 561 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: of shielding yourself from nuisance litigation at the expense of 562 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: the public. Don't just look at us in shrug. Your 563 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: hands are not tied here. And if you're not comfortable 564 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: making that kind of decision, get off the diis. I mean, 565 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 2: I'm not a city attorney, but that would be my advice, right, 566 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: And so again, I think the bottom line here is 567 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: that we can't see this ground. The end result here 568 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: can't be well, local government just isn't a place where 569 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 2: we can safely and meaningfully engage with elected officials on 570 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: the issues that matter. That can't be the answer here. 571 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: Don't wait until this is happening where you live to 572 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: react to this, right like, it could happen here. It 573 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: is happening in a lot of places. You know, if 574 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: you're inclined to do so, you know, show up, engage, 575 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 2: speak your mind on local issues. Don't wait for your 576 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: city hall to become a battleground to show up to 577 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: counter right wing influence, right like, don't just react to reactionaries. 578 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: Stake out that ground now, that's our space. Right. Make 579 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: it clear that people are engaged and that they insist 580 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 2: on their right to engage, so that your city council 581 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 2: can't say, well, people aren't really making public comments anyway, 582 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 2: we just won't have it. And let make sure that 583 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: they know that you will not accept the death of 584 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 2: local democracy at the hands of some Weasley paradox of 585 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 2: tolerance bullshit about letting Nazis dominate our spaces. 586 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: I know there's been other people who've been like talking 587 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: about and pointing out these instances of GDL zoom bombing 588 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: and shutting down these meetings, but there certainly has been 589 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: less discussion of this being a deliberate tactic that GDL 590 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: is doing specifically to actually like shutting down the democratic process, 591 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: like it has been so so focused on just like 592 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: the trolling and the spreading of any Semitic rhetoric, which 593 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: are big problems. But I think there's been a little 594 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: bit less of a focus on actually looking at this 595 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: as a deliberate tactic being employed to remove people's ability 596 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: to engage democratically in the city or school board or 597 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: wherever they live. And I think viewing it as a 598 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: deliberate tactic like that like you've been talking about, but 599 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: both gets like a better look at how these neo 600 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: Nazis are trying to organize. But also it's a more 601 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: holistic approach towards why is this happening, And it can 602 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: allow you to look at this as more of a 603 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: tactical decision less than just kind of random trolling slurs XD, 604 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: which it can be kind of reduced to, which is 605 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: at the very least incomplete way of looking at this phenomenon, 606 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: if not just kind of wholly inaccurate. 607 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to give them too much credit, right, Like, 608 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: they didn't have a brainstorming session where they were thinking 609 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 2: about ways to contribute to the death of democracy. I 610 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: think that's just sort of a phenomenon that occurred as 611 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: a result of their actions that they then saw and appreciated, right, 612 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: So it's not that they don't understand it, but I 613 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: don't think they intended it from the outset. But at 614 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 2: this point it's hard to deny that that is something 615 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: they're doing on purpose. 616 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: And that's just been an interesting trend with the GDL specifically, 617 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: especially considering the legislation trying to crack down on political flying, 618 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: which we might talk about at a later date. But yeah, 619 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: it's been a interesting watching the GDLs as political force 620 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: that yes, is like annoying and bad in the rhetoric 621 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: they spread, but also they've had this interesting ability to 622 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: just either affect legislation or like shut down people's ability 623 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: to engage with politics in their local area in a 624 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: few notable ways. 625 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: So it's important to sort of sit for a minute 626 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: before you react to people like this, Right, Like you 627 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: were talking about that legislation that's going to end up 628 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: infringing on a lot of people's political speech. Right, can't 629 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: just react to the troll. You have to sort of 630 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: think about the context in which this is occurring and 631 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: make a reasonable choice about how to react so you 632 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 2: don't end up giving them what they want, basically, right, 633 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: because they love the attention. They love the attention. Every 634 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: time they do this, it ends up on the local news. 635 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: People are talking about it, people are repeating their message, 636 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: and you don't need to give them that. 637 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: Well, thank you Molly for putting this together. This has 638 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: been very enlightening, if slightly upsetting, but that is kind 639 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: of it's kind that's kind of the entire bit we do. 640 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: Here, that sort of the show. 641 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: Huh, where can people find your work online? 642 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter. I will never call 643 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: it x socialist dog mom. And in keeping with the 644 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: spirit of this episode, most of what I use my 645 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 2: Twitter account for is live tweeting my local city government meetings. 646 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 2: I've been doing that for god seven years now. So 647 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 2: this is a subject that's near and dear to my heart. 648 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: I love engaging with municipal government, fantastic. Yeah. 649 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 1: I've attended more city council meetings the last year than 650 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: I have ever before in my life, and it has 651 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: certainly been an experience. A lot of wacky, wacky and 652 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: unusual things happen in city council meetings. 653 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 2: Thank you Garrison so much for joining me today, and 654 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,479 Speaker 2: hopefully we can bring the listeners something even worse someday soon. 655 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, stay tuned for more breaking Goiam Defense League 656 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: News fucking dark. 657 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 2: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 658 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 659 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 660 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 661 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 662 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. 663 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening