1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: Proud Otto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg's Balance of Power. 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: We've got a lot to talk about here with breaking 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 2: news you heard earlier on Bloomberg. The ruling came down 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: on immunity for President Trump. Here the former president can 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: be prosecuted for trying to overturn the twenty twenty election 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: according to a federal appeals court. This is a three 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: judge panel of fifty seven page ruling. This would then, 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: of course, Donald Trump appealing. This goes to a wider 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: appeals court and then likely Supreme Court. The statement from 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: the Trump campaign prosecuting a president for official acts violates 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: the Constitution and threatens the bedrock of our republic. They write, 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 2: President Trump respectfully disagree with the DC Circuit's decision, and 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 2: we'll appeal it in order to safeguard the presidency and 18 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 2: the Constitution. And so the lines are drawn. Let's bring 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 2: in Eric Larson, Bloomberg's legal reporter with us from World 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: Headquarters in New York. Eric, it's good to see you. 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: We didn't know exactly when we would get this ruling, 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 2: but here we have it. What does it mean for 23 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: the timing of this trial? Of course, the Special Council 24 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: Jack Smith wanted to bring this in March, it fell 25 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,199 Speaker 2: off the calendar. What does it mean going forward? 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: Right? Well, as you said, we'd been waiting for this 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: decision from the Appeals Court for a little while. I 28 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 3: think folks were expecting it to come sooner. The judge 29 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 3: in the case canceled the March fourth hearing. This sorry, 30 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 3: trial was supposed to start March fourth, was potentially going 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: to last several months, so it was not a small 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 3: decision for this judge to cancel that date. It hasn't 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: yet been rescheduled. It's likely that that decision was just 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: a result of this Appeals Court decision on immunity taking 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: so long. So we'll see what happens in the lower court. 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: We'll see what Trump does next. He could ask the 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: Supreme Court to review this, or he could also, as 38 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: you mentioned, seek a review from a larger panel of 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 3: Appeals Court justices, is so called en banc review. Of course, 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: those are rarely granted and rarely succeed. But for now, 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: the Court could not have been more clear that it 42 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: disagrees with Trump's arguments, some of which were outlined in 43 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 3: that statement you just read out. This three judge panel, 44 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: two judges appointed by Biden, won by George Herbert Walker Bush, 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: all agreeing that a former president can be charged with 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: crimes related to their conduct in office, and that particularly 47 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: around this attempt to overturn the twenty twenty election. They 48 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: said that that is something that must absolutely be checked 49 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 3: by the courts. If it's true. 50 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: If the court had ruled in the other direction, would 51 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: this trial, would this case be dead? 52 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 3: Well, it would definitely have put it on the back foot. 53 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 3: The special counsel Jack Smith, who brought this case as 54 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: well as the other federal case over Trump's handling of 55 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: classified records in Florida Federal Court, Jack Smith could have 56 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 3: appealed if it had been overturned. So we would have 57 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: either way seen an appeal, I would imagine. But once 58 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 3: this does get to the Supreme Court, whether when a 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: petition is filed to hear this, the Supreme Court could 60 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: either just say no, we're actually not interested we're not 61 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 3: going to hear this, in which case this decision today 62 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: would stand and the trial would go ahead. If they 63 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: do the Supreme Court were to take it up, then 64 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: of course we would potentially have additional arguments at the 65 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: Supreme Court and then another wait for another historic decision, 66 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: which of course could delay this even further. 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: The Supreme Court would have all the time it wanted 68 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 2: to take right. 69 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: That's right, although I would think in a case like this, 70 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be surprised if they expedited it, just given 71 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: the importance of the question here. It's not just any 72 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: criminal case here against a former president. It's a case 73 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: related to an alleged attempt to illegally overturn an election 74 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: and stay in office despite losing. So it's something that 75 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: the court may see to think would need a resolution 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 3: before the next election. 77 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 2: Eric, does this impact the case in Georgia or is 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: that different because it's on the state level. 79 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the ladder there. It doesn't impact the case 80 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: in Georgia, which of course also relates to Trump's alleged 81 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: effort to conspire to overturn the election that filed under 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 3: state law in Georgia racketeering violations. Various defendants in that case, 83 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 3: including Trump, are trying to have that case thrown out. 84 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: No trial has been set yet in that case, notably, 85 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: so it seems to be a bit further out. 86 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: Well, this is really fascinating here, if I'm understanding you correctly, Eric, 87 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: everything is up in the air right now, and Donald 88 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: Trump's attempts to delay, delay, delay as a strategy may 89 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: have actually been strengthened by this ruling. Today. We could 90 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: be in a situation where a trial is underway during 91 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: the presidential the party's nominating convention, or not at all 92 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 2: before the election. Is that right, sure? 93 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: I mean, it's this is all just so unprecedented. It's 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: really unclear what the judge of the trial judge might 95 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: might do here. Obviously there's an interest, the federal interest 96 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 3: in speedy trials and having trials happened sooner rather than later. 97 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 3: That's that's true in all courts. Of course, they're also 98 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: going to weigh against Trump's rights as a candidate as 99 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 3: this continues to push closer and closer to the election. 100 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: But of course, all this whole case probably could have 101 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 3: moved along, you know, faster, it was delayed repeatedly. You 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: know by the defendant in various legal maneuvers, which are 103 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: his right to do. But the delay, the fact that 104 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 3: this might be coming up closer to the election is 105 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: it's not really they claim it's by design. Trump's defense 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 3: is claiming that this is election interference. But I think 107 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 3: that a lot of the timing and the delays are 108 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 3: actually a result of the defense arguments here. 109 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 2: Great to have Eric Larson. I appreciated Eric Bloomberg, legal 110 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: reporter as we add a voice of experience in Nick Ackerman, 111 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: of course, founder of the law Office of Nick Ackerman, 112 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: but also former assistant US attorney, former assistant special Watergate prosecutor. 113 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: Mister Ackerman, It's great to see you, Welcome back. We've 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 2: talked about the virtues of this argument a couple of times, 115 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: but this must really hit close to home with you 116 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: having your experience on the Watergate case. Prosecuting a president 117 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: we see for official acts violates the Constitution and threatens 118 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: the bedrock of our republic. According to Donald Trump's spokesperson, 119 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: what say you. 120 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, he's not being prosecuted for official acts. 121 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 4: He's being prosecuted for criminal acts that he did outside 122 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: of his duties as president of the United States. So 123 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 4: that's the first fallacy with his argument. No one has 124 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 4: ever understood a president to be above the law, that 125 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 4: a president can willing nelly break the law at his pleasure. 126 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 4: That was never the law. We never assumed that in Watergate. 127 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 4: In fact, we assumed just the opposite. And we're investigating 128 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: Richard Nixon for all kinds of violations, including obstruction of 129 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 4: justice and income tax violations. The only reason he was 130 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 4: not prosecuted in the end was because he was pardoned 131 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 4: by President Trump. Other than that, we wouldn't be talking 132 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 4: about this issue today. It would have been done and 133 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 4: completed years ago. 134 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: President Ford. Of course, the pardon, right, Is this something 135 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: that you considered during the Watergate era as a potential argument? 136 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: Are you surprised Richard Nixon didn't make it? 137 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 4: This was never raised during the War Date era. No 138 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 4: one ever had the audacity to say that the president 139 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 4: was immune from obstructing justice and committing crimes. That just 140 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 4: never came across our radar. 141 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: That says a lot. So we have a fifty seven 142 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: page opinion here unanimous three judges. If this indeed goes 143 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: to the wider repellate court, which we expect what happens. 144 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 4: Well, I think what's going to happen is he's probably 145 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 4: going to appeal directly to the Supreme Court in order 146 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 4: to not have this case go back to the district court. 147 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 4: I think the Supreme Court is not going to take it. 148 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 4: They've already got a full plate with this Fourteenth Amendment issue. 149 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 4: I think they would prefer not to be involved in 150 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 4: this particular case. Don't forget, if Donald Trump is convicted 151 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 4: in the DC case, he then will have the right 152 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 4: to appeal the entire conviction to the Supreme Court and 153 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 4: raise this issue at a later point. So I think 154 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: that is more likely what is going to happen. The 155 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 4: real ramifications here are that the case in DC is 156 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 4: going to be put off a little bit yet, probably 157 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 4: not till we'll say April or May. And what's going 158 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 4: to happen instead is that the case criminal case pending 159 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 4: in Manhattan is going to. 160 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 5: Go ahead first. 161 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 4: So I think what we're looking at is that the 162 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 4: first case that Donald Trump is going to have to 163 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 4: defend himself on criminal matters is going to be in 164 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 4: New York County starting the end of March. 165 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 2: This is the Stormy Daniels case. Which is pretty remarkable 166 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: to think that that would be the first to kick 167 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: off here. But I just want to get a thirty 168 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,239 Speaker 2: thousand foot view, say again. 169 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: Not really, no, No, this case is just as important as 170 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 4: any of the others. First of all, just Stormy Daniels. 171 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: What this case has to do with is Donald Trump 172 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 4: defrauding the US voting public in twenty sixteen. What he 173 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 4: did was he engaged in a scheme that involved not 174 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 4: just himself, but David Pecker at the National Inquirer and others, 175 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 4: including his own attorney, to basically keep information relating to 176 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 4: sexual affairs that he had with various women from the 177 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 4: voting public. Don't forget, at the point in time where 178 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 4: he was doing this, there had already been the Access 179 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: Hollywood tape that came out. There were twenty some odd 180 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 4: women that had come out saying that he had abused 181 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 4: them at some point, and this situation, if it had 182 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 4: been released prior to the election, probably would have resulted 183 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 4: in Hillary Clinton being elected. So what you really have 184 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 4: here is Donald Trump having essentially a hoodwink the voters 185 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen by keeping this information from the voting public, 186 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 4: which is what is charged in the Manhattan indictment and 187 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 4: thereby getting himself elected. So this is a pretty significant case, 188 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 4: not to mention the fact that the proof here is 189 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 4: pretty overwhelming. It's not just his former attorney Michael Cohen 190 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 4: who's testifying, but it's also David Decker, who is then 191 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 4: the owner of the National Inquirer, who's also going to testify. 192 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 4: So you've got two main accomplished witnesses. Those are going 193 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 4: to corroborate each other. You've got a tape recording between 194 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: Donald Trump and Michael Cohen where they discuss the payment 195 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: to another one of the women, Karen McDougall, and how 196 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 4: they got the money to her, and the involvement of 197 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: mister Picker. And then you've got a whole bunch of 198 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 4: other witnesses who are going to corroborate various little assa 199 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 4: specks of this whole scheme. So the bottom line is, 200 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 4: I think this is an almost certain conviction. It's a 201 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 4: quick trial, it's no more than three weeks, and he's 202 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: going to be convicted and then go down to DC 203 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 4: for his second conviction. That's what I think is going 204 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: to have. 205 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 2: Well, just that was incredible to listen to Nick Ackerman 206 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: because so many folks, including by the way, many Democrats, 207 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 2: have spent a lot of time trying to question the 208 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: legitimacy of that case in how it reflects on the others. 209 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: We hear about indictment fatigue, that Alvin Bragg bit off 210 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: more than he could chew, that we should have allowed 211 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 2: the special counsel to move forward. You see, all of these, 212 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: it sounds like, is equally important. 213 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 4: Absolutely. The problem is people have not read the indictment. 214 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 4: All you have to do is read the statement effects. 215 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 4: What I just said is pretty much laid out there, 216 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 4: and for some reason, the press, the public they've forgotten it. 217 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 4: They haven't read it. But once you dig into it, 218 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 4: this is a very significant case. In fact, what it 219 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 4: shows at the end of the day is he cheated 220 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 4: his way into the presidency and then after he lost 221 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 4: the election, he tried to cheat his way to stay 222 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 4: in the presidency. That's what these cases are all about. 223 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 4: With respect to the DC case and the Georgia case. Now, 224 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 4: of course, the Florida case for the classified documents is 225 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 4: a completely different situation, where he essentially stole classified information 226 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: and obstructed the government obtaining those documents back. 227 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: Nick I only have a minute. If I'm understanding you correctly, 228 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: and the question I wanted to ask you the broad 229 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: view here. While this made this ruling today may delay 230 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: the start of Jacksmith's trial, in the end, it strengthens 231 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 2: jack Smith's hand. 232 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 4: No question, it absolutely does. It's just going to mean 233 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: that one trial is going to go before another trial, 234 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 4: and you're going to start in March with the Manhattan 235 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 4: DA's office. Then you're going to go to DC. Then 236 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 4: you're going to go to either Florida or Atlanta for 237 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 4: the Hobby reco case. So these are all going to 238 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 4: kind of go in succession. They could have never all 239 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: gone at the same time for this simple reason that 240 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 4: defendant can only be in one courtroom at one time. 241 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: Nick Ackerman, a great pleasure. We appreciate your jumping on 242 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: this story for us with little notice. This broke just 243 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: a couple of hours ago. Former assistant special Watergate prosecutor, 244 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: former Assistant US Attorney Nick Ackerman. 245 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Can 246 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and then 247 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: Roynoo with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen 248 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa, from our flagship New York station. 249 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 250 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: If you're just joining us. Though, it has been quite 251 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: a day in Washington here with breaking news from the 252 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: DC Circuit Court. We were waiting for this in the 253 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: immunity case for Donald Trump. Unanimous ruling three judges on 254 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,479 Speaker 2: the Apeals Court ruling that Donald Trump can can be prosecuted, 255 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: in other words, not immune for trying to overturn the 256 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: twenty twenty election, and Donald Trump, shocker is going to 257 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: appeal it. Prosecuting a president for official acts, says the 258 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: campaign violates the Constitution, threatens the bedrock of our republic. 259 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: President Trump respectively disagrees with the DC Circuit Court's decision 260 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: and will appeal it in order to safeguard the presidency 261 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: and the Constitution. This is where we begin with our panel. 262 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: Glad to say, Rick and Jenie are with us on 263 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: an important day here in Washington history. Bloomberg Politics contributors 264 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: Genie Shanzano and Rick Davis. Genie, your thoughts on Stormy 265 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: Daniels being the first case that we hear, because that 266 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: is likely what's going to happen. Delaying Jack Smith's case 267 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: likely until what appears to be summertime, if not fall. 268 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: What does it mean for the campaign? 269 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think this is more to the 270 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 6: benefit of the campaign than not. 271 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 5: They would rather have cases. 272 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 6: That, if you've been discussing, meant some people at least 273 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 6: feel should not have gone forward. So they'd rather have 274 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 6: these cases. I don't want to describe it at all 275 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 6: as frivolous, because it is not. But in the views 276 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 6: of some people it is a political prosecution and that 277 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 6: is clearly not the case when it comes to Jack 278 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 6: Smith or documents. 279 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 5: So I think that works to their advantage. 280 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 6: But boy, this decision out of the Appellate Court today 281 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 6: a victory for the rule of law. He is going 282 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 6: to appeal it. But I can't imagine a world in 283 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 6: which any Supreme Court, as conservative as they are, says 284 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 6: that any president has absolute immunity. That is a violation 285 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 6: of separation of powers of the likes of which our 286 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 6: democracy has never even imagined. Talk about frivolous. That is 287 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 6: frivolous delay tactic. He may get the delay, but ultimately 288 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 6: he won't get the win on this. 289 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: Well, so there it is rick the impact on the 290 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: Trump campaign near term benefit, long term liability. 291 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm not sure near term benefit. You know, I 292 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 7: think the idea of like raising money off of these. 293 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: I think raising money, can you hear me, Yeah, we 294 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: got you, We're goodhead, Okay. 295 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 7: Raising money off of these court cases? You know, I 296 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 7: don't think it has the power that it once did 297 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 7: early on in the process. I mean, voters in all 298 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 7: the polls that I've seen are sort of accepting this 299 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 7: as a process question now. And the trigger there in 300 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 7: the process is if he's convicted. They don't seem to 301 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 7: be that influenced by the process going on until then. 302 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 7: So the question is when does this case ultimately break 303 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 7: through all these debates, all these barriers, and get get 304 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 7: on the docket so that it can actually be tried. 305 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 7: As you talked about earlier in your program, the amazing 306 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 7: part of a presidential campaign that I don't think anybody 307 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 7: ever contemplated is having a criminal trial ongoing in the 308 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 7: middle of a you know, presidential campaign, you know, with 309 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 7: one of the presidential contestants. So I think it's hard 310 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 7: to say whether or not this is actually going to 311 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 7: order his benefit or not. 312 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: Well, he's going to have a lot of time in court, Genie, 313 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 2: whether he can turn that into good optics or not. 314 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't really imagine it, but I know 315 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 2: that a lot of people have spent time trying to 316 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 2: delegitimize Alvin Bragg's case. But to Rick's point, how corrosive 317 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 2: is it going to be to see Stormy Daniels up 318 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: on the stand, to see David Pecker up on the 319 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: stand telling these stories. 320 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 6: It will be corrosive. And the problem for Donald Trump 321 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 6: here has never been a problem in the primary season. 322 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 6: It is a problem in the general election. So, whether 323 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 6: it's the Stormy Daniels case, Jack Smith, the documents, the 324 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 6: reality is if this is an election which is going 325 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 6: to be fought out in the middle in these six 326 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 6: to seven battleground states, independence moderates are going to have 327 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 6: a very hard time. As the Bloomberg Morning Consul poll 328 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 6: showed voting for somebody who has been convicted of a crime, 329 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 6: I mean, that is a huge, huge problem. You know, 330 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 6: he can spend all he wants, he can raise money, 331 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 6: but we still, hopefully Joe Matthew, live in a world 332 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 6: in which the conviction of a felony by our court 333 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 6: system is seen as something that is not attractive to 334 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 6: people as they look to vote for a president. So 335 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 6: it's not to say that they may love the alternative 336 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 6: and Joe Biden so much. Yeah, but gosh, it's gonna 337 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 6: be hard to choose somebody who's been convicted or in 338 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 6: the midst of such tawdry details. 339 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 5: And so I don't think they move the base. 340 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 6: The base will stay with him, but certainly the independence 341 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 6: and moderates are going to have second thoughts when it 342 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 6: comes to this, all of these trials, not just the 343 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 6: one involving Stormy Daniels. 344 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 2: Rick. I know it's serious when Genie uses my full name, uh, 345 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna have probably I'll get angry tweets for this, 346 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 2: but I have to ask, with a headline like this 347 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 2: and what I'm hearing you both say, did Joe Biden 348 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: just win the election? No? 349 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 7: I mean, he's got a long way to go, and 350 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 7: he's coming from behind in all our targeted states that 351 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 7: we've been pulling at Bloomberg. So it's also predicated on 352 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 7: his success. And part of his success is to have 353 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 7: an ever improving economy that voters actually feel like they're 354 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 7: getting a better economy, and he's still got to prove 355 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 7: that he can do that. 356 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 2: Although I would say that's one of the. 357 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 7: More likely scenarios. But like he's got a major failure 358 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 7: on his hands today. He's supposed to be addressing the 359 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 7: nation an hour ago talking about why he needs border 360 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 7: security legislation to tighten up a border that voters don't 361 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 7: think he's doing a good job with. And if he 362 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 7: isn't able to make the case that he can actually 363 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 7: handle this border over the next four years, forget the 364 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 7: fact that he's had an abject failure over the last 365 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 7: two years, then he's still going to have a problem. 366 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 7: I mean, elections are always about a choice, and it's 367 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 7: between two people as imperfect as they are, you know, 368 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 7: and all the baggage that they both carry. Sooner or later, 369 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 7: the voters are going to have to vote. Right now, 370 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 7: they seem dead even split. 371 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: It's remarkable Rick Davis and Genie Shanzino with crack analysis here. 372 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: This ruling is fresh. 373 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 374 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play 375 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: and then Brounoro with The Bloomberg Business at Listen on 376 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live 377 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: on YouTube. 378 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: We knew the ruling was coming here today. We've been 379 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: discussing our anticipation there, Kaylee. The question was where this 380 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 2: court would come down and where we go from here. 381 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 2: Of course, the campaign is going to appeal this, but 382 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: Jack Smith's premise, his case against the former president is 383 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: still alive. 384 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 8: It is, of course, the decision of this appeals court 385 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 8: today is held for six days until February twelfth. The 386 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 8: former president and his legal team have until that day 387 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 8: to decide whether or not to appeal it to the 388 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 8: Supreme Court. And then if the Supreme Court ultimately decides 389 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 8: to hear it, decides to rule, that's when we may 390 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 8: have a better understanding of the actual timeline when this 391 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 8: may indeed go to trial, because remember it was supposed 392 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 8: to be March fourth, and Judge Chutkin already last week said, okay, 393 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 8: well that's not going to happen because we didn't have 394 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 8: an immunity decision. 395 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: Amazing. So this is where we begin with Michael Zelden, 396 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: I'm glad to say is with us, the former federal prosecutor, 397 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: former special council to Robert Muller while at the DOJ. Michael, 398 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: it's good to see you here. We are we finally 399 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: have a ruling. Nick Ackerman, the former Watergate prosecutor, was 400 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: with us last hour. He suggests this in fact strengthens 401 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: Jack Smith's hand, and we'll only delay the trial into 402 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: summer or fall. 403 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 9: What do you think, Well, it's unknowable. However, I think 404 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 9: that there is a reasonable opportunity here for the Supreme 405 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 9: Court to decline to take cert in this case. You 406 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 9: have Judge Chutkin, the trial judge, is issuing a very 407 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 9: comprehensive ruling. Why the immunity argument that Trump put forth 408 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 9: holds no water This three judge bipartisan appointed panel unanimously 409 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 9: agrees with chuck Kin and says that the former president 410 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 9: is just like any other citizen once he is a 411 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 9: former president. So you have four distinguished jurists saying this 412 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 9: is not a close case. Why the Supreme Court would 413 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 9: feel the need to intervene at all is in my 414 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 9: mind questionable. They are risking always the view that they 415 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 9: are putting their political fingers on scales. This is an 416 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 9: opportunity for them to say, you know what, it's not 417 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 9: a close case. We don't need to take sert, and 418 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 9: this case can go forward to trial. When the trial 419 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 9: judge sets it down. If, however, they say, you know what, 420 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 9: it's a case of first impression and we need to 421 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 9: hear it. Then if you look at the timeline that 422 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 9: took in the appellate court, this could be done by 423 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 9: the end of April, aligned for a trial in mid May, 424 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 9: I think, without any due process implications for the former president. 425 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 8: Okay, but how could the former president and his team 426 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 8: potentially change that timeline, knowing that he has a tendency 427 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 8: to always want to delay. What options does he really 428 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 8: have here to do? 429 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 9: So? Well, this Court of Appeals said they will not 430 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 9: stay this ruling pending his request to the Court of 431 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 9: Appeals in Bank the total Court to hear it. So 432 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 9: that doesn't stay the trial. It will only be stayed 433 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 9: until February twelfth, to allow him the time to seek 434 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 9: consideration by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court says yes. 435 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 9: Then they set it down for briefing sometime later in 436 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 9: the month of February. They said for argument in the 437 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 9: early part or the mid part of March. They issued 438 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 9: the decision within thirty days, as this Court of Appeals did. 439 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 9: Then we're in May, so he really doesn't have a 440 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 9: lot of options. It seems to me unless the Supreme 441 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 9: Court were to take this case, say we're not going 442 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 9: to do it on an expedited basis, and not make 443 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 9: a decision until June, end of June, their normal calendar. 444 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 9: The Ackerman maybe right that we're looking at a fall trial, 445 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 9: but I'd be surprised if we have to wait that long. 446 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: In that world, we could have a scenario in which, well, 447 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: number one, if I guess, if it's late summer, it 448 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: coincides with the Republican convention, that's something to consider the 449 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: president ping ponging back and forth. But if it's fall, 450 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: Michael Zelden, could we be in a situation where the 451 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: trial is underway but not resolved when people vote. 452 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 9: Well, yes, because of early voting, it may well be 453 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 9: that there are people who can vote while this trial 454 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 9: is in full swing. Might mean that people decide to 455 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 9: hold off on early voting until there is a resolution. 456 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 9: But yeah, it's theoretically possible that that could be the case. 457 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 9: And it seems to me that those people who think 458 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 9: that they don't need to hear the outcome of a 459 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 9: criminal trial against the former president decide in the deciding 460 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 9: whether to vote for or against him that's their prerogative, 461 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 9: but it shouldn't define what the DOJ had and should 462 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 9: do in a case like this. 463 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 2: Can you imagine that, Yeah, that would be something. 464 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 8: Indeed it would And I wonder if we can take 465 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 8: you actually inside the opinion, Michael. The three judges on 466 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 8: this panel essentially said, ultimately, this comes down to a 467 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 8: question of checks and balances, and if the argument that 468 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 8: President Trump were making former President Trump were making were true, 469 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 8: that would mean that the judicial system can't check a president, 470 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 8: that the legislative branch can't do it either, even the 471 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 8: executive wouldn't have the power to bring charges. I just 472 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 8: wonder what you make of the actual arguments that the 473 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 8: judges were making here and how bulletproof they would be 474 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 8: when taken to a Supreme Court. A very originalist court 475 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 8: has a conservative supermajority. Three justices were appointed by former 476 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 8: President Trump himself. Are there holes that could be poked here? 477 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 9: I don't think in this separation of powers argument, as 478 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 9: you articulated from the very beginning Marbury versus Madison, which 479 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 9: gave the court's authority to look over the actions of others. 480 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 9: This principle has allowed for judicial review. This notion of 481 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 9: this unitary executive that has carte blanche to do what 482 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 9: the executive wants without judicial review, I think has been 483 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 9: rejected by this court and will continue to be rejected 484 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 9: by this court. The other argument that this will open 485 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 9: up a Pandora's box for future presidents who will now 486 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 9: be afraid to act because of the possibility of criminal 487 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 9: liability once they leave office. This Court has resoundingly said 488 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 9: that is too hypothetical, that is not something that can 489 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 9: factor into this. What we have here as a president 490 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 9: who is under former president who is under indictment, and 491 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 9: what the imperative of our society is that that person 492 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 9: be held criminally accountable and not have that accountability be 493 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 9: delayed for some theoretical hypothetical that Trump tries to pose 494 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 9: tried to pose before the Court of Appeals. So I 495 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 9: think he loses on all of the fundamental arguments that 496 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 9: he made to the Court of Appeals. And I think 497 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 9: it should be pretty cut and drawing for the Supreme 498 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 9: Court to say, you know what, we don't need to 499 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 9: resolve this. This is black letter analysis and get on 500 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 9: with the trial, all right. 501 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 8: Michael Zelden. We always appreciate your insight and expertise on 502 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 8: the many legal matters we are dealing with when it 503 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 8: comes to the former president. Michael Zeldon, of course, the 504 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 8: former federal prosecutor and former special counsel to Robert Mueller, 505 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 8: while at the DOJ. We want to turn now to 506 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 8: the halls of Congress joining us now and please to say, 507 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 8: is Republican Congressman from Georgia, Buddy Carter and Congressman, we 508 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 8: have much to discuss with you when it comes to 509 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 8: a border deal that may not actually reach the House 510 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 8: floor for you to vote up or down on it, 511 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 8: and as well as the impeachment of the Department of 512 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 8: Homeland Security Secretary Alejandra Maiorcis. But first, if we could 513 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 8: begin with you with the conversation we were just having 514 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 8: with Michael Zelden. This idea that former President Trump, despite 515 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 8: his arguments to the contrary, per of this appeals court 516 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 8: in Washington has decided he is not immune from prosecution 517 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 8: as a former president, to the court makes the right 518 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 8: to call here. 519 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 10: Well, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but I have 520 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 10: to tell you I disagree with this and I don't 521 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 10: think it's the right call. However, it's obvious that the 522 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 10: President's going to ask the Supreme Court to UH to 523 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 10: intercede on this and make a decision and from that, 524 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 10: you know, that's why we have three separate branches of government, 525 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 10: that's what the judicial branches to make these kind of decisions. 526 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: Doesn't make you question your recent endorsement though, of the 527 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: former president, Congressman. 528 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 9: No, I'm not at all. 529 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 10: Listen this president, President Trump can do so much better 530 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 10: of a job than President Biden has done. You know, 531 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 10: if you look at the chaos, if you look at 532 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 10: the at the southern border, if you look at the 533 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 10: economy and people are struggling. I know in my district 534 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 10: when I'm going home, those there are the two things 535 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 10: that they're asking me to mind about. They're asking me 536 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 10: about the economy, and they're asking me about that border. 537 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 10: They want to see real change. We're not seeing change 538 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 10: here with the Biden administration. We need President Trump. 539 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 8: But Congressman, let's talk about the southern border, because do 540 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 8: you know not, as a member of the House, have 541 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 8: right now an opportunity to actually do something about it, 542 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 8: to see changes to asylum and parole realized. For changes 543 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 8: that we have seen hard to find in decades. Now 544 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 8: essentially presented to you, and the House says that they 545 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 8: don't want it. Can you help explain that thinking? 546 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 10: Well, first of all, that bill, as you so accurately 547 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 10: have said, is dead on arrival, and there's a good 548 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 10: reason for it. Look, we sent them two hr. Two 549 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 10: is a great bill that addresses the situation. But let's 550 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 10: keep in mind that this president has the authority to 551 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 10: take care of what's going on in the border. 552 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 11: This is something he. 553 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 10: Created, and he is not taking care of it by 554 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 10: executive action. If he were to put back the remain 555 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 10: in Mexico policy, if he were to complete the construction 556 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 10: of the wall, all of these things that he can do, 557 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 10: he can correct this without us having to do anything 558 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 10: here in Congress. Now, Yeah, we like to see some 559 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 10: of these issues resolved that have been ongoing, and that 560 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 10: is something that we're going to be working on, but 561 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 10: not with this current deal. Let me ask you, how 562 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 10: many laws do we have on the book where after 563 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 10: a certain number of people violate that law, then we're 564 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 10: going to start prosecuting people. 565 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 9: That makes no sense whatsoever. 566 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 2: Well, you just said a lot there, Congressman, and I'm 567 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: just I'm sort of curious by this change in politics 568 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: as Mitch McConnell himself put it, since Iowa, because it 569 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 2: does seem that Donald Trump's front runner status now has 570 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: changed the mood music here in Washington, d C. Some 571 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 2: would suggest this bill actually could have passed with Republican 572 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: support if it had happened toward the end of last year. 573 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: But you're going to need Democrats for anything that passes Congress, right. 574 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: I realized you'd like to see the president act. But 575 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: if there's a legislative answer to this, it's going to 576 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: have to involve Democrats, and therefore some level of compromise. 577 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 11: No. 578 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 10: Obviously, with the tight majority that we have in the House, 579 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 10: with the fact that the Senator is under democratic majority, 580 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 10: we have a Democrat in the White House. Yes, it's 581 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 10: going to take bipartisan work. And look, I'm not opposed 582 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 10: to that. I checked my record. You'll see that I've 583 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 10: I've legislated and governed in a bipartisan fashion. I know 584 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 10: how to do that, and I'm willing to do that. However, 585 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 10: this bill that they are sitting over, this border bill, 586 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 10: is not what my constituents want. 587 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 11: It's not what's going to be best for this country. 588 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 8: Can you just help explain though, how not having anything whatsoever, 589 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 8: no changes is better than the current status quo. When 590 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 8: you talk about how for your constituents the border is 591 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 8: so top of mind. Why is just some change, even 592 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 8: if not perfect, the worst alternative to doing. 593 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 10: Nothing because of the other things that it does as well. 594 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 10: And you know, and listen, I would beg to differ 595 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 10: that when you've got to do something well, and you know, 596 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 10: we could cause more harm. And I believe that this 597 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 10: order bill would cause more harm if we were to 598 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 10: enact it, then it would do us good. You know, 599 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 10: I'm a healthcare professional, and as consultant nursing homes, I 600 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 10: was always asked a question asking the question does the 601 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 10: benefit outwey to risk? And in this case, I don't 602 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 10: think the benefit outweighs the risk of all the other 603 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 10: things that this brings in with it. 604 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: To what extent, Congressman is Donald Trump running the House 605 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: right now? This seemed to be a Republican priority until 606 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: he told the speaker that it wasda No. 607 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 10: That doesn't have anything to do with it. I represent 608 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 10: my constituents. I vote according to what my constituents feel 609 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 10: and the way that I'm representing them as I hope 610 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 10: every other member of Congress does so to think that, oh, 611 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 10: this is the heavy hand of Donald Trump, I think 612 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 10: is erroneous. 613 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 8: Well, as we've discussed, Congressman, you may not even have 614 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 8: a chance to vote either way on this package if 615 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 8: it is indeed dead on arrival in the House and 616 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 8: never will make it to the floor. But you may 617 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 8: have a chance today to vote as to whether or 618 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 8: not to impeach the Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Majorcis, your colleague. 619 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 8: Congressman McClintock today said that he is a no vote 620 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 8: on that and his reasoning he put in a memo 621 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 8: today he said, the problem is that they've failed to 622 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 8: identify an impeachable crime that Mayorcis committed. He says this 623 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 8: is a stretch and distortion of the constitution in order 624 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 8: to hold the administration accountable for what he says is 625 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 8: stretching and distorting the law. Congressman, from your perspective, what 626 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 8: high crimes or misdemeanors has the Homeland Security committed? 627 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 10: Look, Majorcis needs to go, and I'm surprised he's lasted 628 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 10: this long. It's bad enough the number of illegal immigrants 629 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 10: who are coming across that border. 630 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 11: But my opinion That's not. 631 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 10: The worst thing. The worst thing is the drugs coming 632 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,320 Speaker 10: across that border, the Fentanil coming across that bard killing 633 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 10: our citizens. Two hundred people every day in this country 634 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 10: dying as a result of Finnyl poisoning. That to me 635 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 10: is the reason why he should be impeached. That, to 636 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 10: me is why I'm going to vote to impeach him. 637 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 10: He should be ashamed and he should resign without us 638 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 10: having to impeach him. 639 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: Is that because of Alejandro Mayorcis though, or Joe Biden, Congressman. 640 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 2: I think that's the question people have. His job is 641 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 2: to carry out the policy of the president. Right. 642 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 10: Well, you know, we're very fortunate in the House to 643 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 10: have a constitutional lawyer as our speaker. 644 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 11: And look, our lawyers. 645 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 10: Have looked over this, and they've studied this, and they 646 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 10: have advised us that our constitution gives the secretary and 647 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 10: this situation authority to make changes here. If he's listening 648 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 10: to Joe Biden, then Joe Biden should go down with him. 649 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 10: But I'm telling you, my Orcus has got to go. 650 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 10: If it's bad enough with the number of illegoimmigrants that 651 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 10: are coming across that border. But the drugs that are 652 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 10: infesting every community in America, killing two hundred people every day. 653 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 10: If we had a plane crashing that killed two hundred people, 654 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 10: we'd stop every airplane that were flying in this country 655 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 10: and we figured out what was going wrong. Yet we 656 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 10: lose two hundred people every day, defend no poisoning, and 657 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 10: we do nothing. Are this administration does nothing? 658 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 2: Well, Congressman, it sounds like you're a no on the border, 659 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 2: you're a yes on impeaching Alejandro Majorcis. Where are you 660 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: on a potential government shutdown in a month? Are you 661 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 2: worried that we're going to have to do this all 662 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 2: over again? 663 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 11: Well, my hope is that we can avoid a shutdown. 664 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 10: And I have voted for the CRS in the past, 665 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 10: and I hope we don't have another short term CR. 666 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 10: I hope this is the situation finally where we can 667 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 10: get this done and pass a budget for the year. 668 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 10: But I will tell you that a shutdown is not 669 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 10: the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that 670 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 10: could happen would be for us to continue with this 671 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 10: outland just spending that has got us thirty four trillion 672 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 10: dollars in debt. You know, we're spending more money right 673 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 10: now in the United States of America. 674 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 5: We're spending money more faster than the speed of light. 675 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 10: We spend two hundred and four one hundred thousand dollars 676 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 10: every second. The speed of light's only one hundred and 677 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 10: eighty six miles per second. 678 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: Buddy Carter, we thank you for the time, sir. The 679 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 2: Congressman from Georgia with us Kaylee. Fascinating to speak with 680 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: someone who's preparing to deliver these votes because the mood 681 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: has changed so many times, it's hard to tell where 682 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:21,919 Speaker 2: they're going. 683 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 7: Here. 684 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Can 685 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: just live weekdays at noon Eastern on Apple car Play 686 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: and Enrod Outo with the Bloomberg Business App. You can 687 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 688 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 689 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 8: We just heard from the President of the United States 690 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 8: on the border deal that he has agreed to with 691 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 8: Senate negotiators. That seems like it may very well be 692 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 8: dead in the Senate, not just dead un arrival in 693 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 8: the House. The President making the case that there are 694 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 8: many strict measures in there. The strictest we have seen 695 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 8: proposed potentially in decades, and yet ultimately because in his words, 696 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 8: former President Trump wants to be able to weaponize this 697 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 8: issue rather than solve it. He does not think that 698 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 8: it will perhaps cross. 699 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 3: The finish line for that reason. 700 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, look, we've talked about sticking points a lot 701 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: when it came to issues like parole and redefining asylum. 702 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 2: These were the things that we weren't supposed to be 703 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 2: able to figure out, and they actually did. You might 704 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: not like the bill, but there are compromises on both 705 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 2: of those, along with enhanced rights to send undocumented immigrants 706 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 2: back to their home countries. So you wonder if it's 707 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 2: as simple as Donald Trump leaning on this, Kayley, because 708 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: this would have been considered a breakthrough it seems like 709 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 2: in any other political world. 710 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 8: Yes, but we know that the political climate can change 711 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 8: very very quickly from one administration to the next, even 712 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 8: one month to the next. 713 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: Because that's really you know Davis who said it was 714 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: Iowa when we were talking about Donald Trump flooring everybody 715 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 2: in Iowa, that was the moment that the mood music changed. 716 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,760 Speaker 8: Yeah, Well, as we talk about how things have changed 717 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 8: to the current administration, the former administration. We want to 718 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 8: bring now someone who formerly served under that administration. Former 719 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 8: Ambassador Chris Lando is with us. He served as the 720 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 8: US Ambassador to Mexico during the Trump administration from twenty 721 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 8: nineteen to twenty twenty one. Ambassador, thank you so much 722 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 8: for joining us today. As we just heard President Biden outlined, 723 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 8: there are many potentially substantive policy changes here. He said 724 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 8: that if this were to actually become law today, the 725 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 8: border would be shut down because there would be enough 726 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 8: crossings happening that it would require that there are changes 727 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 8: here to asylum and parole. Is it not enough? Why 728 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 8: is it not enough? 729 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 11: Thank you, Kaylee and Joe. It's a pleasure to be 730 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,959 Speaker 11: with you and your audience today. I mean, this bill 731 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 11: is a travesty. I have to say that this is 732 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 11: basically the Biden reelection bill. I mean to now after 733 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:55,879 Speaker 11: three months, specifically, specifically the parts that first of all 734 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 11: give the president a lot of discretion in terms of 735 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 11: even this emergon thing. The president can override that emergency 736 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:10,680 Speaker 11: provision it provides. It actually locks in these provisions where 737 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 11: it looks to me like the president can't close the 738 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 11: border unless there is four thousand people a day, which 739 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 11: is one point four million a year. I mean, let's 740 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 11: just take a step back, and the Trump administration, the 741 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 11: border was under control. All these EO executive orders and 742 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 11: regulations that Biden made opened the border and incentivized people 743 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 11: to come here in numbers like we've never seen in 744 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 11: our history. Give me a break. Now in the election year, 745 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 11: after three years and maybe ten to twelve million people 746 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,879 Speaker 11: having come in illegally, now the president says he takes 747 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 11: this seriously. I mean, he has authority. In fact, he 748 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 11: has the obligation to detain people who are in their 749 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 11: country illegally. He hasn't done that. I mean, this this 750 00:40:54,960 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 11: bill is, you know, something that basically codifies Biden's disregard 751 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 11: of the law and actually waters down current immigration law 752 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 11: in a lot of ways. I mean, the president has 753 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 11: the obligation again not to let any of these people in. 754 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 11: It doesn't matter whether it's a thousand a day. It's 755 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 11: like you give a guard the responsibility and the duty 756 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 11: to guard your house and say nobody can come into legal, 757 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 11: legal to my house. The guard then decides to throw 758 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 11: a massive party in the house and invite all kinds 759 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 11: of people in, and then you have pass a bill 760 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 11: saying well, okay, just keep the decibel levels down to 761 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 11: these levels and do this and that. I mean, no, 762 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 11: the President had all the authority he needed to do this. 763 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 11: Asylum reform is a separate kettle of fish that can 764 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,720 Speaker 11: be done in a regulatory capacity by the president saying 765 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 11: if you transit through a third country where you can 766 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 11: get asylum from the danger you claim to face, you 767 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 11: can't claim asylum in the States. I mean, this is 768 00:41:59,440 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 11: all stuff. 769 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 2: So, mister ambassador, sounds to me, I'm sorry to interrupt, 770 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 2: it sounds listening to you like this is an issue 771 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 2: of maybe timing or maybe like there was this was 772 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 2: a big waste of time to begin with. HR two 773 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 2: passed the House. It sounds like that might be a 774 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 2: little bit more in line with what you're looking for, 775 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 2: But we need Democrats to vote on this. So was 776 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,399 Speaker 2: was there never a legislative answer? You're saying this should 777 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 2: be handled by the president through executive order? Am I right? 778 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 9: Yeah? 779 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 11: I think you know. Frankly, a lot of the problem 780 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 11: can be handled by the president or executive order, particularly 781 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 11: shutting down the asylum loophole, because the asylum provisions have 782 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 11: basically swallowed up all of immigration law. Everybody knows this. 783 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 11: I mean that ninety. 784 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 2: Three defined asylum. We didn't think we'd ever see that. 785 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 2: Is that not a good part of this proposal. This 786 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 2: is something that a couple of months ago we were 787 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 2: told would never happen. 788 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 11: You don't need a legislative fixers on. The current asylum 789 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 11: law is actually fine, and it says you have to 790 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 11: have a reasonable fear of persecution based on certain narrow criteria. 791 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 11: It's all the regulatory framework that's been put on top 792 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 11: of that, and the procedures that allow people to come 793 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 11: in here, say some magic words, and then be basically told, okay, 794 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 11: see you in ten years that you're asylum hearing. I mean, 795 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 11: that can't possibly be the way it works, because that's 796 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,359 Speaker 11: a magnet for people to make bogus asylum claims. That's 797 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 11: what we have now. I mean they coming up at 798 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 11: the border and surrendering themselves to make asylum claims. 799 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 8: I'd like to ask you while we have just a 800 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 8: minute or two left with you, mister former ambassador, knowing 801 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 8: that you aren't just the former ambassador to Mexico but 802 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 8: also an attorney. We separately got news related to former 803 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 8: President Trump today from the Appeals Court here in Washington 804 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 8: that he is not, despite his claims to the contrary, 805 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 8: immune from prosecution in the case brought by Jack Smith 806 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 8: as a former president. They say that he is not 807 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 8: now former President Trump. He is citizen Trump and therefore 808 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,920 Speaker 8: will be treated accordingly. What do you make of this ruling. 809 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 11: There's two issues here. The first is whether former presidents 810 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,959 Speaker 11: have any immunity at all for any kinds of action, 811 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 11: for a drone strike they may order, for any kind 812 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 11: of thing. The district court said no, that basically any 813 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 11: president can be put on criminal trial by anybody for 814 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 11: anything that they did during their administration. The appeals court 815 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 11: had a narrow ruling. What they said is that the 816 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 11: specific indictments against President Trump just are not things that 817 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 11: are within the president's purview at all for his official actions. 818 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 11: I think, frankly that seems like a very sketchy decision 819 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 11: for me, that the appeals court is a matter of law, 820 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 11: would say that all of the allegations in the indictments 821 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,360 Speaker 11: are not even plausibly in the president's purview. So I 822 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 11: think this is a very flawed decision from my quick 823 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 11: look at it. It's a fifty seven page opinion that 824 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 11: just came down this morning. Yeah, but it seems to 825 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 11: me a very aggressive opinion limiting presidential immunity. 826 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 2: Mister ambassador, We appreciate your joining us. Thanks for listening 827 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 2: to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe 828 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 2: if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you 829 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and you can find us live every 830 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 2: weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.