1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, it's a hunting collective. This episode seventy five. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: It's a really good one. I'm very excited to bring 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: it to you. Um. We have Sam Longern, the fishing 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: editor mediator, and Miles Nolte, the director of Fishing and 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: also like the director of our new show dost Boat, 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: so you should go check that out. We'll talk about 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: that in a little bit. We're also talking about an 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: evil evil man, William Perry Penley and how we can 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: um see him removed from his current post in the BLM. 10 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: And then in the interview ports in the show, we're 11 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: talking to Brant McDuff, who is a wildlife educator and 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: a public speaker and he often covers the history of taxidermy. 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: There's an interesting conversation. He's a theater major out of 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: New York City. That doesn't often happen on podcasts of 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: this nature. So I'm excited to have you comment on 16 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: our conversation. And he's a good dude. Very different for 17 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: a hunting podcast, um, but I enjoyed him and it 18 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: was a good time. But before we get to that, 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna quickly about Trophy Copper. And Trophy Copper comes 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: from Federal Premium. I'm hopefully you're aware of what trophy 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: copper is, but these copper polymer tip bullets are now 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: offered in two new bullets, fifty five grain two to 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: three RAM and a two grain eight lapool mag Hopefully 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: we'll be shooting those two bullets that entirely different critters, 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: but you should be using them this fall and beyond. 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: That's Trophy Copper from Federal Premium. Go to Federal Premium 27 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: dot com and check that out. Everybody here at the 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Meat either loves trophy Copper. We endorse it along with 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: Mr Patelis and Mr Ronella, So go there, check it 30 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: out Federal Premium dot Com. So, without further ado episode, 31 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an older road, a 32 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: pedal to the medals. I always did what I've told 33 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: until I found out that my brand new close the 34 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: game second hand from the rich kids next door, and 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: I grew up fast. I guess I gw up. I mean, 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: they have a thousand things inside of my head I 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted to 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: a real bad dream of being and like I'm coming 39 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: a part of the scenes. But thank you Jack, Daniels seven. Hey, everybody, 40 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: welcome Episode seventy five The Hunty Collective. I've been O'Brien, 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: this is coming to you as August winds down and 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: we get into the thick of hunting season. I've got 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: some hunts coming up you'll be hearing about later on. 44 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: But before we get to that, we're gonna get to 45 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Miles Nolte. Good morning. What's up? You know, just live 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: with a dream buddy. Yeah, Phil, Phil, we got a 47 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: new tabe, a new podcast table, we got all kind 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: of new microphones. How you feeling about. There's a lot 49 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: more room. I'm a big fan of what's happening in 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: this room right now. Phil, I feel like you're part 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: of the process. You guys can't see this right now, 52 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: but Phil used to be crammed into a corner, literally 53 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: behind a sheet. Now closet, he has a literal seat 54 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: at the table. I know it's earned or unearned as 55 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: yet to be seen, but I'm at the table. His 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: chair is higher than all of ours. To Phil freed 57 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: himself from I kind of feeling he actually is sitting 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: in judgment over the rest of us. From It's true, 59 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: I was saying earlier this is his little kingdom so decorated. Yeah, 60 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: so it's starting to look like a real like somebody 61 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: really thought this out earlier, it was just we had 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: one West siland described it as like Hotel Art. He 63 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: wasn't wrong. Hotel Art is still up. It's still there, 64 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: but it's starting to look like now there's just more 65 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: of it. So it feels kind of homie. Yes, it's true. Um, 66 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: we're all reeling from last week's Phil reading mean comments. 67 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: That was quite a revelation, wasn't Phil. Yeah. I mean 68 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: I personally enjoyed it. And we made a mistake. We 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: didn't have Miles come in with his velvety voice. Well 70 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: we'll rectify that over the time. I gotta say, as 71 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: a as a longtime listener and part time contributor, I 72 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: thought that I thought that ship was really funny. I 73 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: died laughing. I was giggling like a schoolgirl during it. 74 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: When I listened back to him like I was like, 75 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: hey time, I was like, well, that just knows. I 76 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: was having a good time during that. It was good. 77 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: You cannot deal with angry comments in a better fashion 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: than that right there. It was very very great. So 79 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: we'll get to that. But we're gonna make some angry 80 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: comments before we get to that. Um, some of our 81 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: own before angry comments. Last couple of Yeah, two episodes ago, 82 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: I screamed, I might scream again, Phil, So I get 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to make sure you're a little got the fairs on 84 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: the faders this time. Fade that out. We don't want 85 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: we don't want to scare people, blow everybody's car speakers out, 86 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: and we don't want to scare people to work. Um, 87 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna start by talking about a gentleman named William 88 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: Perry Penley. And if you don't know who William Perry 89 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: Penley is, he's the new acting director of the b 90 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: l M, which is the Bureau of Land Management. And 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: before we get into all this, Sam has has the 92 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: longest of all of us, possibly are probably the most 93 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: intense history with conservation. We can all agree with that. 94 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Um from working at b h A for how long? Sam? 95 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: Five years? Five years? Um, so give us just give 96 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: us a quick rundown of the BLM, what it means, 97 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: the public lands, and kind of why the acting director 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: of this branch of our wonderful government might be important. Yeah, 99 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: the the BLM is, you know, a giant portion of 100 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: our public land estate two forty seven million acres out 101 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: of the six hundred and forty six total that we 102 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: possess his American citizens. UM. But it's it's often kind 103 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: of place second or third fiddle, I suppose to some 104 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: of the more prominent public land management agencies, like the 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: National Park Service in the United States four service UM, 106 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: those were founded much earlier, UM, you know, into the 107 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, really codified in UM 108 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: the in Theodore Roosevelt's administration. But the BLM land is 109 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: often looked upon as the land that nobody wanted. It's 110 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: the stuff that homesteaders passed by because it was arid 111 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: or rocky or UM just otherwise difficult to prove up 112 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: what you had to do with your hundred and sixty 113 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: acres under the the Homestead Act Allotment UM. Some of 114 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: it was land that people did want, but it didn't work, 115 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: and so maybe they shouldn't have wanted it. Uh. It 116 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: kind of came together piecemeal over the years, UM through 117 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: a number of acts that UM managed what was done 118 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: on those lands that nobody really owned, you know. That 119 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: was kind of started with like the Mineral Leasing Act 120 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: of nineteen twenty talking about how people could go, you know, 121 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: to set mining claims in areas like that. The Tailor 122 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: Grazing Act of nineteen thirty four, which started to put 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: some constraints on what people did with their cattle and 124 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: sheep and established a system for that and permitting process 125 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: and grazing fees, the same grazing fees that a lot 126 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: of these people like Penley like to rail about. Um, 127 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: but it's BLM land is still the cheapest place to graze, 128 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: graze your livestock in the country on I mean on 129 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: it's like a tiny fraction of what it costs to 130 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: graze on private land or state trust land by and large. 131 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: But the BLM as we know it today was really 132 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: founded in nineteen seventy six under the Federal Land Policy 133 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: and Management Act. UM. A lot of people like to 134 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: call it flipma and that that's that's what really said. 135 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: Flip Yeah, great, it sounds like a rapper rolls off 136 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: the tope. I can see that as a wrapper flip 137 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: must squad, maybe a wrestler. We'll keep that going, continue 138 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: with the we need to think. I think the outro 139 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: you should record is just a freestyle over flip flip 140 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: flip mus squad that could we could do that continue 141 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: That actually might make it more boring now that I 142 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: think about it. You know, it's hard for me to like, 143 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: this is very important information, but I've I've devolved so 144 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: much in my podcast hosting that I just want to 145 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: make jokes during this. That's all I can do anymore. 146 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: That's what it's about your podcasts evolution. But please continue 147 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: with the facts that are pertinent to the Yeah, yeah, 148 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: and I'm almost I'm almost done. It's you know, it's 149 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: the land that nobody wanted. It's often talked about as 150 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: scab land, scrub land, bad lands, all sorts of nit 151 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: pejorative names that you know, make it make it seem like, 152 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: you know, the dogshit that the federal government shouldn't be 153 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: paying for, shouldn't be managing that. It would be so 154 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: much easier and so much more cost efficient, economically, um 155 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: beneficial to sell those areas to private individuals and incorporations. 156 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: But I'd like to point out, and I assume most 157 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: people who are listening to this have at least some 158 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: relation to hunting, that like, that's where most of the 159 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: public land upland bird hunting in the Western United States happens, like, 160 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: if you want to shoot a sharp tail grouse, you're 161 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: doing it on BLM land. Like that's the bottom line. 162 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: Tons of pheasant hunting, tons of the I mean anywhere 163 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: you're talking about stage grouse all BLM and I mean 164 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: I do a ton of muleteer hunting every year on 165 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: BLM ground. Um. I'd like to mention that you know, 166 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: it's it's thought of as as you know that it's 167 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: it's a lot of it's in um, you know, checkerboarded landscapes. 168 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 1: Some of its different, difficult to access. It's it's kind 169 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: of scattered throughout the West, but there are giant port 170 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: parcels of it and some really incredible stuff, including two 171 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: and twenty one codified wilderness areas, and I believe hundreds 172 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: more wilderness study areas that have kind of languished for 173 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: forty years in between there. But there there's incredible l 174 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: hunting on a lot of BLM land that's pronghorn central. 175 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: Like therefore I've killed pronghorn in Wyoming on BLM land. 176 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: Callahan and I were need to cite our rifles in 177 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: the other day in Douglas, Wyoming, I was just like, well, 178 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: there's some BLM land. Let's drive out there. Absolutely it's yeah, 179 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: And and guess who's from Wyoming. Guess who was born there? 180 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: William Berry Penley. I think I think it's difficult to 181 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: overstate the importance of BLM land. Two hunters in the West, 182 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: and that's just that's the thing. If we want to 183 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: there are a lot of ways we can slice this. 184 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of good reasons to talk about 185 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: the benefits of b l M LAMB. But for our 186 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: purposes here, I think we've got to say, as hunters, 187 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: if we lose BLM land, we have lost a massive 188 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: percentage of the land we get to hunt in the 189 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: western part of the US. Next, I'm you're looking at 190 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: your onyx maps and you're hunting public land or not, 191 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: or just just zoom out to a state level, wherever 192 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: you are in the West, or wherever you are in 193 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: the country, and just start looking around at those chunks 194 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: of BLM land. It's all the yellow stuff, all the yellows, 195 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: and it's it's all the yellow stuff that surrounds the 196 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: little portions of blue and green. Yeah. I think before 197 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: we get to Penley, I think we should talk a 198 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: little bit about I've heard a colleague of mine the 199 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: other day talking about the public lands movement in general, 200 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: I think led by b h A UM and and 201 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: also TRCP, but but mostly led by b H A 202 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: and talking about chiding the public lands movement for not 203 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: being a movement of action, for being comparing the public 204 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: lands movement to something a group like r M E 205 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: F or D you what has b h A done 206 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: for habitat? If I compare that to what Army F 207 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: has done for habitat, I can I can honestly say 208 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: ARMF has had a bigger impact. But when this move 209 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: comes up, and one it becomes important is moments like 210 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: right now is when we can be advocates for these 211 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: lands and we can tell our government and the folks 212 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: that run it that this is not okay. And this 213 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: is where the power of the public land is really shined. 214 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Not that it doesn't do those other things, but this 215 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: is where, you know, this is where this movement shines, 216 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: and this is where we can really have an impact 217 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: as voices within this community to say like this is 218 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: not acceptable. And I think if we're going to talk 219 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: about this in specifics, we need to go back a 220 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: couple of months when the three of us sat in 221 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 1: a different room and recorded a separate podcast about the 222 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: passage of a public lands bill. Right, And so, what 223 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: I think we need to recognize with this particular moment 224 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: in this appointment of Pendley is that there has been 225 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: a massive failure on the part of interests who would 226 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: like to sell off public lands to do so through legislation, Like, 227 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: because you and I and the folks who care about 228 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: this stuff clearly told our lawmakers we don't support this, 229 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: and our lawmakers heard that and said, I don't think 230 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: we can support this in legislation. Excuse me either. So 231 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: what what what's the next move? We appoint someone as 232 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: the head of this whole department who wants to find 233 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: ways to circumvent the will of us and keep our 234 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: lawmakers from being held accountable for it, and get there 235 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: in a different manner. And yet yet another podcast that 236 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: Sam was a part of, Steve Ronnella, we were talking 237 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: about public versus private in our community and how like 238 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: those cultures have kind of clashed a bit within the 239 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: hunting community. And we said, there the reason why we're 240 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: so loud about public LANs because it is actively under 241 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: attack this is actively under attack, and this is and 242 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: we'll have laws where we feel real comfortable. And one 243 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: of those main laws this year was was the laws 244 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: I mean l l U double LS. One of those 245 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: main times where we felt comfortable was you know, when 246 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: that public lands package passed. We're very excited about this. 247 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: We feel like the tide is turning, there's not an 248 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: immediate threat, and then something like this happens. Is you 249 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: remember why we're all advocates for this thing. You remember 250 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: why we feel so strongly about public lands. And to 251 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: tie this back to your point where you started. If 252 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: we're going to look to a success of the organizations 253 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: who are fighting for public lands, this is it. It 254 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: may not you may not be able to see it 255 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: in the same way that you can see habitat restoration, 256 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: but this is just as real and just as significant 257 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: to be able to keep all of us informed about 258 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: what's going on in terms of legislation and other actions 259 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: that are threatening our public lands and give us mechanisms 260 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: through which we can show our opposition. Absolutely, and I 261 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: think it's useful for people to look at the conservation 262 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: movement UM and the groups, the different nonprofit in g 263 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: o s within it as somewhat of a portfolio, you know, 264 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: ELK Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited. They all have their 265 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: mission and do great work within that um and are 266 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: very narrowly focused on the on the specific species that's 267 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: on the logo. It's obvious what they're supposed to do 268 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: and that. But I think that's the great value of 269 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: organizations like t R C, P and and b h 270 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: A and others, is their their mission. It's like you 271 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: guys seem to have the animals covered. Animal populations in 272 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: the United States are generally doing fairly well right now, 273 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: at least when we're talking about game, but they those 274 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: organizations arose from concerns about these things like the sage 275 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: brush rebellion um that we're talking about here, disposal BLM 276 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: land and and and that's most needed right now in 277 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: my mind, it's a it's a really critical problem, really 278 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: something that needs to be resoundingly struck down. UM. So 279 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: let's let's get to the situation we're in and we're 280 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: just talking about this, Miles, can you take us quickly 281 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: to or like, how did how did William Perry Penneley 282 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: get to be the acting director of that questions get there. 283 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: He got there through appointment. There was no oversight, there 284 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: has there's no voting mechanism, there's no opportunity for public comment. 285 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: An appointment simply means someone was just stuck there. Yeah, 286 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: and during any other administration that wasn't the Trump administers, 287 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: and this ship would be front page news. Absolutely, they 288 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: shoehorned this dude into the BLM. No congressional appointments. I'd 289 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: like to emphasize acting director because if he had been 290 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: actually appointed, then he would have a Senate confirmation hearing 291 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: in which he would be fried for advocating strongly against 292 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: the the agency he would be leading suing the Department 293 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: of Interior. He's dudes, an anti government, so crazy person. 294 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: But before we before we get into hyperbole, I'm gonna 295 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give a little bit of before Ben starts screaming, 296 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give a little like I'll try and be quick, 297 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: a few historical points from his resume that caused concern 298 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: for me, and I think you know, there there's a 299 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: lot of, like I said, a lot of hyperbole, a 300 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: lot of vitriol on all sides of these issues. Let's 301 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: as much as we can stick to the actual things 302 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: that have happened that caused me to stay up at 303 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: night wondering, am I going to get to hunt my 304 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: favorite lands in ten years? Well, my son, how we're 305 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: gonna do this? You'd be the force of reason. That's 306 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: bad idea, but okay. So for for some context on 307 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: on Penley, he worked for the Department of the Interior 308 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: under Reagan uh and was dismissed from the Department of 309 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: the Interior in the mid eighties. Why was he dismissed 310 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: by the Reagan administration from the Department of the Interior. Well, 311 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: he had a significant hand in the debacle that's known 312 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: as the Powder River Basin coal lease sale. Any of 313 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: us who who have hunted in that area of the 314 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: Powder River Basin is just like this gold mine of habitat. 315 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: It's just an amazing place. But it is also one 316 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: of the epicenters of coal production in this country. And 317 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: I'm not going to step into debate about the benefits 318 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: or drawbacks of coal. That's not what's an issue here. 319 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 1: The way that the lease sale went down under Penley 320 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: was real sketchy, and he has been accused of finding 321 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: ways to undercut the lid beasts. The bid lease prices 322 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: so that the coal companies could get the best price possible, 323 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: therefore taking away the value of our public lands and 324 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: undermining it so that the coal companies could make more money. 325 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: Because of what he did there, he was dismissed from 326 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: Reagan's Department of the Interior. That to me is pretty 327 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: significant and eroads what we would call public trust and 328 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: an individual which should be required for something. Uh. It's 329 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: it's just that that that is the primary one of 330 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 1: the primary reasons from his history if we look at 331 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: things he has actually done that I find to be 332 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: very very problematic. Now let's jump ahead a little bit. 333 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: He continues to be an advocate very publicly opposed to 334 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: federal public lands, now in charge of more than a 335 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: third of them. His Twitter handle is at sage brush Rebel. 336 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: Someone should give some context on that. There. There's a 337 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: there's a great article that I'd like to point people to, 338 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: just to if you have any ounce of you know, 339 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: curiosity in your mind, whether we're making any of this up, 340 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: you should just go to the National Review dot com, 341 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: you know, a large pop publication and searched by his 342 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: name and find the the opinion column he wrote in 343 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: January entitled the federal government should follow the Constitution and 344 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: sell its western lands. He has also is this on 345 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: his sleeve. He's continually this year come out on on 346 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: his Twitter account multiple times saying we need to repeal 347 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: the Antiquities acting. He said the founding fathers intended all 348 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: lands owned by the federal government to be sold. So 349 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: this is you know, we could continue kind of going 350 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: on and on about this. I think the point has 351 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: been made. There are plenty of examples of why this 352 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: particular individual is a problematic choice to lead the BLM. 353 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: If you are, like us, a fan of maintaining access 354 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: to public lands BLM lands, Yes, this is and and 355 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: again he was not we if listen, it's that we 356 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: had less of a leg to stand on. We can 357 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: still disagree, you know, with his his views, his worldview, 358 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: but if he had been appointed by Congress, if he 359 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: had gone through the proper confirmation hearing, then then we 360 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: can at least say that there's less shady materials to 361 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: be covered here. But here then we'd have some of course, 362 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: died officials like who are supposed to supposed to represent us, 363 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: could have the opportunity to prevent this from happening. Just 364 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: happening by FIAT right, and we could we could have 365 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: recourse in the sense that we could tell those officials 366 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: we really disagree with this choice and if you continue 367 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 1: forward with this, we will not vote for you again. 368 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: We do not have that opportunity here. And I'm gonna 369 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw one more piece of evidence out because 370 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: this is one that I think is near and dear 371 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: to my heart. Uh. All the work in two thousand 372 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: fifteen that went toward rehabilitating stage grouse habitat. If you 373 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: guys are not aware of this, you should do a 374 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: little reading. But it's one of the few examples we 375 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: have of industry, hunters and anglers, conservation groups, and even 376 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: environmentalists coming together to work on a problem to keep 377 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: the sage grouse off the endangered species list so that 378 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: we could continue utilizing those lands for development and hunt 379 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: on them and protect the species. Yeah, he called the 380 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: effort to protect sage grouse an imposition of draconian and 381 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: illegal rule. So you're talking about one of the best 382 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: examples we have of different user groups and cohorts coming 383 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: together to try and actually get something done, and he's 384 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: opposed to it. That that to me is just unthinkable. 385 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: And so let's get to he's the acting director. What 386 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: can he do, right? What can he do to affect 387 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: the BLM past his tenure and during his tenure? I mean, 388 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things he can do. One of 389 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: the things that's most concerning that he can do is 390 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: he can hire in a point people that will last 391 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 1: much longer than his tenure. Like, so he can affect 392 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: the future of the BLM by hiring people and bring 393 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: people into the fault that will take positions um within 394 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: that group that can affect it further. And and that 395 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: is maybe the most concerning to me. I mean, what 396 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: else is there in you guys mind that this guy 397 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: can do and probably will do, because he'll do anything 398 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: he can. Is quite obviously that he wears us one. Yeah, 399 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: and I think you know, one of the most important 400 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: things we should be looking at here is that the 401 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: Department of the Interior is undergoing a reorganization still that 402 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: was started under former Secretary Zinky and um, and so 403 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: he'll be overseeing that. He'll he'll be laying the bricks 404 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: of the new building if you if you will, and 405 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: I I mean, I just feel like that's just rife 406 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: with opportunity for sabotage. I think he's going to try 407 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: to make it smaller and less effective. Is it the 408 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: the BLM they're moving. They're moving it out, the headquarters 409 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: of the BLM to Colorado. Uh. And there's a lot 410 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: of people who are really concerned about that. I I 411 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: understand both sides of that. I think the BLM needs 412 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: to be as connected as possible to the local landscapes, 413 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: to the places it manages. I think it is more 414 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: so currently than people give it credit for, because those 415 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: lands are still managed by people who live there jen 416 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: early local people, um and a lot of proud local 417 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: I have tons of friends who work for the BLM, 418 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: and so when people trash talking, I think about them. 419 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: I don't think about the you know, two thousand miles away, 420 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: the the the overlord of these lands, like some people 421 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: like to describe it. And but some people worry that 422 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: by moving the headquarters of the BLM to Colorado, as 423 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: they're currently planning to do, it divorces that from the 424 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: decision making center in Washington and may make it even 425 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: less effective than it currently is, because those officials are 426 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: two thousand miles away from the congressmen who are deciding 427 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: upon their budgets and their directives. Um, So I'm I'm 428 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: a little torn on that. But the fact of the 429 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: matter is the acting director oversees all of this and 430 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: and points and hires people who are doing the dirty 431 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: work and may not be choosing the most boy scout 432 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: of you know, of BLM rangers and um, you know, 433 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: people who really have a dedication to serving the public 434 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: and serving the the idea of multiple use under which 435 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: the BLM in the Forest Service are managed where we 436 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: where we extract resources, but we also recreate and those 437 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: things are balanced equally. And so I'm concerned that that 438 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: industry is going to be given higher degree of attention 439 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 1: in this reorganization than will hunting. Yeah, and I think 440 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: a lot of people think and I'm not sure what 441 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: to think about this. Like I said, like you said, 442 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: I could see it both ways that the move out 443 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: to Colorado is a ploy to kind of drain the 444 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: the BLM of a lot of the employees that are 445 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: based in d C. Yeah, a lot of these people 446 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: aren't going to make that trip. Absolutely, they're not going 447 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: to make that move. It's almost a clean slate for 448 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: him to rehire the entire organization. So there's a lot 449 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: of people that think, Okay, what's the best way on 450 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: to cover of you know, some really logical reasons to 451 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: move it west. What's the best way to kind of 452 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: strip this of what it currently is and remake it 453 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: um and remake it for possibly longer than the current 454 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: administration is in power or holds the office. Not to 455 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: oversimplify things, but if you talk to people who work 456 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: at the BLM field offices, and and to reiterate this point, 457 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: many of the decisions and the actual management of these 458 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: offices of these lands are done by the field offices 459 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: that are right there, mostly in rural parts of the word. 460 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: Go in one. They're gonna tell you where to go hunting. Oh, 461 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: they're they're nice folks. They've got the best maps they do, 462 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: And I love maps. I just have my my truck 463 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: stuff full of BLM and Forest Service maps that I 464 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: pick up for free at those places, and they're they're 465 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: great because your phone does die. But if you go 466 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: talk to those folks and you ask them what they 467 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: need to to better manage those lands, it's not a 468 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: reorganization or a move out west of their headquarters. It's 469 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: more funding that's what thing and a reorganization, and to 470 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: move out west is enormously expensive. And and the BLM 471 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: has been held at funding levels that reflect those like 472 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: from of the late seventies, not even accounting for inflation. 473 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: It's anemic funding. And that's the problem with management, is 474 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: that we can't have enough people on the ground and 475 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: do what we need to do. And and so that's 476 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: and and that's exactly a tactic of Perry Penley and 477 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: this other sage brush rebellion folks, is to starve these 478 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: public land management agencies of money so they can't do 479 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: their jobs and then cry that they're not doing their jobs. 480 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: It's it's hypocritical. And this this this reorganization is going 481 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: to exacerbate that issue. Well, let's let's go a little 482 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: bit further into this, because there's a guy that we 483 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: should all know about. I mean, what we we talked 484 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: about Secretary Interior Ryan Zinki when he was in that post. 485 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: Now we have David Bernhardt. He has been he has outward. 486 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: He said that he opposes land transfer. He said that 487 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: he's been quoted in many many publications saying exactly that thing. 488 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: I watched him on TV give an interview where that 489 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: he repeated that over and over and over again. Now, 490 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: who ordered pen Ley to be to be appointed here 491 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: had to be Bernhard Bernhard. So now there was a 492 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: quote from UM Senator Danes here in Montana saying, like, well, 493 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: who appointed him? It was? It was Bernhard, and so 494 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: it must be okay because Bernhardt is against land transfer. 495 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: It's worth mentioning that Bernhard's previous job was as a 496 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: oil industry lobbyist. And this is pretty fraught in the 497 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: Trump administration. This isn't really about Trump, I don't think. 498 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it marries down to everything. I was feeling 499 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 1: that that Trump's really paying attention to this whole thing. 500 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: Right now, there's a there's there's bigger fish to fry, 501 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: to be To be fair, I was listening to comedians 502 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: saying the other day, like every every conversation leads to Trump. 503 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: Unfortunately this one does. But it's not. I don't I 504 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: don't know that. I think like I think the head 505 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: of the snake is Bernhard in this case, and so 506 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: that and actually, you know what, let's go even further. 507 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: The head of the snake is oil and gas and 508 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: other attractive industry money. Yeah, let's just be straight up 509 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: about where where is this coming from. It's all about 510 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: it's about money, and it's about extractive industry money. And 511 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: if you if you believe that the extractive industries actually 512 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: care about your hunting rights or habitat or wildlife, I 513 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: don't think you've been paying Why Why would they haven't 514 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: been following along? Because it's clear that's that's what's at 515 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: opposition to these lands. I mean, that's what it is. 516 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: It's always been that. Yeah, it's it's been that since 517 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: we've had them correct and so that's not this isn't 518 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: something new. But again, I mean to to circle it back. 519 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: I think it's it's pertinent to say, listen, this has 520 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: been going on. This is just another this this is 521 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: a pretty egreging ample, but another example of you know, 522 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: that faction within our government and without that is going 523 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: to continue to push this. So here's let's let me 524 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: move this a little bit. If I'm if I am 525 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: breaking the fourth wall a little bit, if I am. 526 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: You folks sitting there listening to this wondering, Okay, they've 527 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: been talking about this for quite some time. I get it. 528 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: What do I do? What recourse do do I have? What? 529 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: What could I do about any of this. Do we 530 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: have an answer for that person? You can write to 531 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: your elected officials, that's for sure. You can show up 532 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: at their's public speaking engagements like a lot of people 533 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: did with Senator Steve Danes and hold signs to say 534 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: no land transfers, no Penley. I mean, you can do that. 535 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: You can let your voice be heard in those ways Danes. 536 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: Danes has heard from me several times on this through 537 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: several methods, right and and if I'm going to be 538 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: perfectly honest right now, I have no idea if that 539 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: has any impact. I don't know that Danes or any 540 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: other senator has the ability to change this. However, That's 541 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: about all I got, Like, I don't I don't know 542 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: what else I can do. Senators do have a lot 543 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: of power to change this, and I firmly believe in 544 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: the power of calling them and telling them that. And 545 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: if you you don't feel like calling them, if you 546 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: don't feel like having that conversation, email does work. They 547 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: do respond and try to, you know, often just rationalize 548 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: away their behavior. But um, having been in d C 549 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: and lobby senators their staffers say that that that that 550 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: they they take note, like most Senate can congressional offices 551 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: have whiteboards that they're tallying calls and emails and even 552 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: social media commentary about about these things. And you know, 553 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: while they still may be more beholden to certain special 554 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: interests and in certain you know, wealthy people more so 555 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: than the rank and file voters, it's the rank and 556 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: file voters that continue you to allow them to have 557 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: their their high level jobs, and they when when things 558 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: reach such a like a cacophony, they do bend. And 559 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: we've seen this numbers of times with the public land movement, 560 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: that you can make the noise so unbearable for these 561 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: congressmen that they do take notice and they do take action, 562 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: and the Senate could fix this. So I think I 563 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: think then the message to all of you who care 564 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: about this and who would think you want to do something, 565 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: is to get in touch with make a phone call, 566 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: write an email, do both if you're willing to, and 567 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: and let them know that you are concerned about this 568 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: and you're very concerned about this particular individual being in 569 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: this particular position. I think Sam's right. I mean, when 570 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: you talk to people that are on staff for senators 571 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: or on staff for congressmen and you talk to them 572 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: about you know, or even state legislators. You know, we 573 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: had just Johnson on and she's talked about Wyoming. One eat, 574 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: watching at a state legislature meeting like one email, change 575 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: a vote, like the state legislatures, sitting at the desk, 576 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: the email comes in, she sees him reading it, she 577 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: knows it just came, and he changes his vote during 578 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: a session. And so that that doesn't always happen. That's 579 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: a you know, that's probably a more rare case than 580 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: we would like to believe, given that these are our 581 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: elected officials. But I mean that that constant pressure we 582 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 1: saw it with Jason Schaefitz, and and that constant pressure, 583 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: when applied, will have results. We don't know exactly what 584 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: those results might be from from in this case. I 585 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: can't sit here and say this is the exact path 586 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: to go forward, but I can say apply the f 587 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: and pressure. Now agreed, and I agree that this is 588 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: a little different because there is no vote here. Yeah, 589 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: you can't. Just that's why it's different. And that's that's 590 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: where my cynicism comes in. It's not a referendum, this 591 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: this one, and that's why. But that's why it's so 592 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: damn dastardly that that's I think it's it's done in 593 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: this way, and you have I think one of the 594 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: major victories of the public lands movement has been that 595 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: in this state in other states, you have to get 596 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 1: on the stump for public lands if you want to 597 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: come to the table, like if you want to be 598 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 1: considered Republican or Democrat, you've gotta comment say we're not 599 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: gonna sell these lands. And I'm gonna throw one more 600 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: thing in here, because I think we're it's important to 601 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: mention this. We are hunting show, we're speaking to honey on. 602 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: But I think that we are very very off base 603 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: to assume that this is going to benefit ranchers in 604 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: rural communities to lose these public lands, because the fact 605 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: remains that many, many, many of the folks who graze 606 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: their cattle on public on blm lands are small ranchers, 607 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: and they're able to make their lives, their livelihood work 608 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: because of those subsidized grazing fees. If those go away 609 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: and that land gets sold off to private interests, they're 610 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: not going to use their business. They're not going to 611 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 1: be able to buy that stuff. Absolutely not, and and 612 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: and that's one of the great fallacies here, that is 613 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 1: that that these BLN lands are somehow gonna let go 614 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: day in the local communities, that the ranchers who graze 615 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: there are going to somehow just get them. They're they're 616 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: missing the point pretty broadly there, because these lands are 617 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: going to be sold, you know, in you know, an 618 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: auction like free market style system, and there are a 619 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: lot of people who have a lot more money than 620 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: the cattle rancher who's grazing on that on that land, 621 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: he's not gonna get He's going to lose there. And 622 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: I'd also like to mention that you know, rural communities 623 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: profit enormously off these lands in other ways to like 624 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 1: BLM lands where most like off roading happens. That's that's 625 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: generally a lot more reduced on forest service and park service. 626 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: But there's like that's that's where you go and spend 627 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: brodies and and shoot guns and blow up tanner, right, 628 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: you know, those things are allowed for in in many 629 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: places and written into management plans that there are places 630 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: for people to go plinking on BLM land. It's it's 631 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: like it's like what kids who grew up in the 632 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: woods like me like should we love to love to 633 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: go do that doesn't have anything to do with hunting 634 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: or fishing. It's like destructive and I'm like not trying 635 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: to advocate that, but I know a lot of people 636 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: who don't listen to this are like have a have 637 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: a dirt bike and want to go tear around in 638 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: places sometimes within within the law. And I mean, b amlet, 639 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: that's when we stand to lose places to go do 640 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff too. Yeah, it's broad reaching, and 641 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: I don't like we don't often get directly on the 642 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: stump for things here, and it may seem repetitive the 643 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: public flans things, but we've already gone over why the 644 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: repetition is necessary. You know, we know it's under attack. 645 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: We understand these types of things. But there's if you 646 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: if you google William Perry Penalley look at photos of him, 647 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: it is it is. It's like shocking some of some 648 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: of the different hairstyles and facial hair configuration to this 649 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: man in in some like dies and bleaching. I'm like 650 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: almost certain there's a photo here of him where he 651 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: looks he looks a little bit like he just woke 652 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: up from a seventeen year NAP. I saw somebody else 653 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: online say he looked like a homeless man that has 654 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: been cleaned up for court. I thought that was pretty 655 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: I figured I would give you guys a chance to 656 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: kind of describe his look and in the best in 657 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: your best pros. Well, I'm gonna go ahead and say 658 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: that that handlebar mustache has seen a little bit of 659 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: Grecian formula over the years. Oh yeah, and and uh, 660 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, I I recognize that he's from from Wyoming, 661 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: but if I saw that dude walking down the street, 662 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: I'd I'd be going all hat and no cattle. Yeah, 663 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: he looks like I think he looks like a tire 664 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: changer for a NASCAR team. I think if I'm just 665 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: getting like the prison warden like villains, yeah, showshank redemption 666 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: because that's a what's his name? But you know, just 667 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: that's that's the vibe I'm getting. I don't know why. Yeah, 668 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: you're going failed nineteen seventies porn star who went to 669 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: law school after he washed out the movie Born. That hair, 670 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,959 Speaker 1: the hair the blonde like the dyed blonde hair. He's 671 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: been bleaching it since the seventies. It's clear. So anyway, 672 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: if you want to write into THHC at the meeting 673 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: to Colm with your descriptions of William Perry Panley. Please 674 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: do because I find them to be He also appears 675 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: incapable of smiling. I don't see a smile here. Oh, 676 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: here's one. Is there one? Have you seen this one 677 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: with where he's next to the flag blockers. Yeah, that's 678 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: like he smiles like he's never done it before. Yeah, 679 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: he smiles like what is this that I'm experiencing? Holy ship. 680 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: That's definitely the first time he's taken a selfie. Yeah. 681 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: Somebody on his staff is like, William, you're gonna need 682 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: to start, sir. We see he probably asked somebody if 683 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: they could take a selfie of him. Can you guys 684 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: do a selfie? Oh, here's the one, worry, No, you 685 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: do that yourself. Man, what what now? Can't you just 686 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: do it for me? Yeah? He always kind of looks 687 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: like he just fell down some stairs. He just couldn't 688 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: make it. See. I just get like a disapproving, creepy 689 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: principal look. Yeah. Yeah, like he's just disappointed in you 690 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: all the time for anything you've ever done. Yeah. He's 691 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: a defense lawyer on Law and Orders special he's all 692 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 1: those things. That's William Perry Penley. Everybody, Uh, well, all 693 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: we can tell you is agree or disagree with what 694 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: we've said here there. You know, go look at the facts, 695 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: Go read read his history, read his comments. He's written 696 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 1: two books. I mean, there's plenty out there from this 697 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: man to you know, put his views into the crosshairs 698 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: and and go and and do that research for yourself 699 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: and and find out what this man is all about, 700 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 1: and then what power he has in his current seat, 701 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: and and take action. I would say, if you love 702 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: public lands, and if you ever hunted BLM lands or 703 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: ever wish to hunt those yellow blocks scattered around the west, 704 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: that you better do something here real quick, because he 705 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: can make every day. This man can make changes to UM, 706 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: the BLM, to how it acts, how quickly it acts, 707 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: how slowly it acts, what it does in judicial situations. 708 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: This is a guy that can can affect many, many things. 709 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: And so it's worth standing up and saying we don't 710 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,479 Speaker 1: like that, we're not having that, especially in the way 711 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: that he was appointed UM. So that will leave there 712 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: any any final comments on on this gentleman take ten minutes. 713 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean it's I I just it's not that difficult. 714 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: Write an email, make one phone call if you care 715 00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: about this, And if you don't, you know, that's your 716 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: progative and I'm not gonna judge you for that. But 717 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: if you do care about this, don't just be piste off. 718 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: Take ten minutes. Yeah, and you know, take five minutes 719 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 1: before that. If you don't believe us, like, don't take 720 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: our word for it. Just read anything he's read and 721 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: see if that aligns with your vision of what you 722 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: want the West to look like in the outdoor recreational 723 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: opportunities you would like to have in the future. All Right, 724 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: to end this segment on William Perry Penley, we're gonna get, 725 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: of course, to Brandon McDuff, Sorry brand for getting real 726 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 1: political on you for for to the interview. Um, I'm 727 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: gonna ask Miles and Nulte and his best voice to 728 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: read some quotes from William Perry Penley esquire a man 729 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: about town. Go ahead, Miles. Environmentalists don't believe in human beings. 730 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: The founding Other's intended all lands owned by the federal 731 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: government to be sold. Westerners know that only getting titled 732 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: too much of the land in the West will bring 733 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: real change. My lord. I've said it before and I 734 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: will say it again. Fracking is an energy, economic and 735 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: environmental miracle. William Perry Penney's an enemy pertion of the show. Bye, 736 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day row brand. 737 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,720 Speaker 1: How's it going? Hey, thank you for having me. Yeah, 738 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: welcome to shiny Montana, sunny Montana. You're here at a 739 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: good time. I love it. I got all, I got 740 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: all tan on the I did the red bus tour 741 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 1: at Glacier. Oh, yeah, you're just a real tourist ship, 742 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: you know it. Well done, me and the seven year olds? Yeah, 743 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,839 Speaker 1: would you learn? You learn anything? The glaciers are receiving. Yeah, 744 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: glaciers are receding. It's real pretty. I just wanted to 745 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: sit there and not have to do anything. Yeah, you know, 746 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: because I could. I could have driven through Glacier, but 747 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: I would have had to pay attention to driving. Yeah, 748 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: well that's a good deal. I've never been on a 749 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 1: red bus tour and I would go. Now, some big horn. 750 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: Oh you did any other wildlife? Just some little ground 751 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: squirrels really making a stink. So you went to the spectrum. 752 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: You went ground squirrel too. It's a big horn. Yeah, 753 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: well done. Well listen, I'm yeah, I fancy myself a groundbreaker. 754 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: But we've had an animal rights activist song, we had 755 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: a vegan on everybody like to talk about that. Now 756 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: I'm scared I'm gonna be known for that. But this 757 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: you're a theater major, so I just wanted to lead 758 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: off by a Brooklyn based you know, So I'm gonna 759 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pigeonhole you, right, that's I'm good at that. 760 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: You're a Brooklyn based theater major and maybe you know, 761 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: maybe the first Hunting Podcast guest ever in the history 762 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: of the world to be a theater major. So hopefully 763 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: we'll do some sort of acting at near the end 764 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: to really get your to really get you in. But 765 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: some suggestions. So there's a lot of reasons why I 766 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,919 Speaker 1: thought it would be interesting to sit down and talk. 767 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,879 Speaker 1: But I think before we get into kind of what 768 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: you do, and as we were talking about before, I 769 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: think you where do you come from? And as as 770 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: listeners will find out your story is is really interesting 771 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: where you are today and how you got there. Um, 772 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: this podcast is about finding people's why why you know? 773 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: Why do you? Why are you interested in hunting? While 774 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: you interested in natural history and in your case, tax 775 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,240 Speaker 1: jermy and other things, and collecting that perspective and bringing 776 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: it back in and understanding what that means for all 777 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: hunters and how we can all come to be interested 778 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 1: in something that a lot of people in Brooklyn seems weird, archaic, 779 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: gruesome to to to add some other adjectives to a 780 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: So tell us where you're born and kind of give 781 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: us a little bit of a seed of of your 782 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: early life. So I was born in New York, actually 783 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: on Long Island. Um, but I don't remember much of that. 784 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 1: I grew up in southern Florida, like Palm Beach area, 785 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: and I since I was teeny tiny, I've been crazy 786 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: about animals, just really nuts about animals. And I would 787 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: run around near where we lived and catch snakes and lizards. 788 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: And I used to catch little green annoll lizards and 789 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,319 Speaker 1: I'd hold them up to my ear and then they'll 790 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,399 Speaker 1: bite onto your earlobe and then you can walk around 791 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 1: with fashionable lizard earrings. Um. And yeah, always just preferred 792 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,879 Speaker 1: animals to anything else, and would always have my nose 793 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: in a book about animals or was watching nature shows. Um, 794 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: and any time I had the opportunity to do something outdoorsy, 795 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 1: I did it. I was very lucky that my parents 796 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: sent me to do cool things camps or whatever, you know, 797 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: learned to say or learn to do whatever. My dad's 798 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: a horseback rider, so I've been riding horses since I 799 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 1: was a kid and I love that. And UM, I'm 800 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: a whitewater rafting guide and a kayak instructor. So I've 801 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: always I always wanted to be outside. UM. I always 802 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,320 Speaker 1: loved animals, but I wasn't sure what to do with it. UM. 803 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: When I went to college outside of Chicago, and yeah, 804 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: it was a theater major. Love theater, still do UM, 805 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: and that actually, so I give I've always been a 806 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: tour guide too, and gave tours of the South Carolina Aquarium, 807 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 1: UM and my schools, and now I give tours at 808 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,479 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History, and so the theater 809 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: actually comes in handy quite a bit because I like 810 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: talking to people and projecting in the Africa wing of 811 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 1: the m and H is difficult, UM, but so I 812 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: never was. I Also, I've got a lot of energy, 813 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,799 Speaker 1: and it's tough for me to focus on one thing. 814 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: So you know, when I was a kid, was like, oh, 815 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 1: maybe I want to be a vet or a zoologist 816 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: or anything. And I just could never land on one thing. So, 817 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,320 Speaker 1: you know, today, if it's like you're on my website, 818 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 1: it's like, oh text dremy classes and tours and lectures, 819 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: and I want to be moving around, I want to 820 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: be active, I want to be talking to people. And 821 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: as a kid, I was always very I was always 822 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,600 Speaker 1: very skeptical of hunting. The I loved animals so much. 823 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: The idea that someone would want to kill an animal 824 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: just blew my mind. Yeah, this is what As you're talking, 825 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, that's the question I wanted. Why on earth 826 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 1: or how on Earth in this case did you get 827 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,399 Speaker 1: to this? Okay, I'm getting there. I get there, so 828 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: um yeah, so the idea that someone want to do 829 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: it just kind of really blew my mind. But um, 830 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, I idolized guys like Teddy Roosevelt 831 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:17,200 Speaker 1: and um, you know, all of these sort of old 832 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: timey adventure conservationists, and it was like, wow, I couldn't 833 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: get past the hunting part. But I did really like 834 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: the idea of running around in the woods and going 835 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: on adventures and having my rifle with me and I. 836 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: Uh My dad taught me how to shoot since I 837 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,759 Speaker 1: was young. We used to go sporting clays shooting all 838 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,799 Speaker 1: the time. I love shooting sporting clays, so guns were 839 00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: not a new or scary thing for me. Um. I 840 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,080 Speaker 1: have a nice little twenty eight cage I still do 841 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:51,240 Speaker 1: sporting clays with and um. Uh, so there was always 842 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: sort of this um butting heads going on with me. 843 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,759 Speaker 1: Of of I liked taxidermy. I liked what I saw 844 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:01,680 Speaker 1: in them museums. I liked it when I went to 845 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,279 Speaker 1: a lodge and I saw big moose heads on the 846 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: wall and uh. And I liked nature and I liked animals, 847 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: and I couldn't always jive all of them together. Um, 848 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 1: but I knew there was something about all of it 849 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: that I liked. And yeah, it wasn't until much later. Um. 850 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: It's funny getting into taxidermy first. Uh. But I was 851 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 1: living in New York, and I loved the dioramas at 852 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,480 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History are the absolute best 853 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:44,480 Speaker 1: habitat wildlife dioramas in the entire world. Um and so 854 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,359 Speaker 1: I love talking about them, I love looking at them. 855 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:48,919 Speaker 1: I love the history behind the artists who made them, 856 00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: and um, Carl Aakley Um, who was responsible for the 857 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: Africa Wing and all their stories. And I was working 858 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 1: at a museum. I was also working on a museum 859 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: called the Morbid Anatomy Museum, which is unfortunately no longer 860 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,960 Speaker 1: a physical museum, but they still have a website more 861 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,759 Speaker 1: of an anatomy. And it's about sort of history that 862 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: gets lost through the cracks, things that were very common 863 00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: at one time, but maybe history has swept them under 864 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: the rug, like the way you used to take a 865 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: picture of someone after they died, because maybe you could 866 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,439 Speaker 1: only afford one photograph at the time, and if someone 867 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: died young, that was going to end up being their 868 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: photographs and things like that, or like the history of taxidermy, 869 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 1: and so I got to learn more and more about 870 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: the history. And about ten or eleven years ago I 871 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: took an introductory taxidermy class and after that I was like, oh, 872 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,800 Speaker 1: I can do this. I'm not I'm not squeamish um. 873 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,239 Speaker 1: And I like, and you you were approaching as like 874 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,240 Speaker 1: an art craft, something that would connect you to animals, 875 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 1: not necessarily you can't wait heal a big buck and yeah, 876 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: exactly um and the yeah. So it was sort of 877 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 1: coming at it from a backwards angle of getting into 878 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 1: the taxidermy, the art of it, the history of it, 879 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,840 Speaker 1: and text for me is really a great representation of 880 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: the history of global exploration because you go back to 881 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: this time where you had these cabinets of curiosity, which 882 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:32,239 Speaker 1: was really at a time where people were able to 883 00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,720 Speaker 1: afford to travel the whole world. They would travel somewhere 884 00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: and they wanted to bring back souvenirs or like, look 885 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:39,560 Speaker 1: at this weird thing and bring it back and show 886 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: it to their friends. So tax termy became kind of 887 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,239 Speaker 1: a necessity of like, well, if I want to show 888 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,759 Speaker 1: off this weird animal, I have to figure out how 889 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: to preserve it. So in earnest, that's sort of where 890 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,880 Speaker 1: it started in terms of how accurately can I represent 891 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,359 Speaker 1: this animal? And it took a long time to get 892 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:59,479 Speaker 1: it right, but um uh, it wasn't until much later 893 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 1: that I and I think it's sort of part of 894 00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: the You know, everyone in New York is very conscious 895 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,560 Speaker 1: of going to the farmers market to get their food, 896 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: and um uh, there's a lot of pride in that 897 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: you know of where you get your food and you 898 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:22,040 Speaker 1: know what you spend on meat, um and uh, I think, 899 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, I started reading these articles in the New 900 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,680 Speaker 1: York Times, in the Wall Street Journal and uh Q 901 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: d m A has there field to fork movement, And 902 00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, just looking into that, it really it's not 903 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: hard to see the natural progression of farm to table, 904 00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,400 Speaker 1: uh to field to fork. And if you are really, really, 905 00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,759 Speaker 1: really concerned about where your food comes from, you know, 906 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,960 Speaker 1: why don't you go get it yourself right out of 907 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,880 Speaker 1: the woods? Right? And I remember, it's been a decade 908 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,759 Speaker 1: I've been in hunting media, and remember the first time 909 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,720 Speaker 1: I read like the New York Times headline hipsters or hunters, 910 00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,200 Speaker 1: and they've been recycling that recycling, recycling. I think they'd 911 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: love to go back to that old trope. That's old 912 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: to me now, but it's still relevant. I mean, is 913 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 1: the reason that's being continued written about because there's iterations 914 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: of what I think is is a genuine movement, or 915 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: at least in pockets, could be called the movement. So like, 916 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you're living in a place where not only 917 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: is there you can't walk out to your back forty 918 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,399 Speaker 1: and go scout for white tails. You can't. I mean 919 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: the effort that you have to put into actually doing 920 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: the act of hunting is much more than someone that 921 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: sits here in Bozeman or is this somewhere else, some 922 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,759 Speaker 1: more rural areas. So you have that barrier to entry. 923 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,040 Speaker 1: Your other barried entry is there's no community around you 924 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,839 Speaker 1: supporting you to do it. And then I'm sure that's 925 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: probably even more important than the actual physical going and 926 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,400 Speaker 1: doing it. But somehow you've kind of you knocked all 927 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,719 Speaker 1: these barriers down. So to describe to people what that is, 928 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: because a lot of hunters like me, who my dad 929 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: taught me on thing, I've never known much anything other 930 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: than that activity, it's hard for me to think of 931 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 1: those barriers as real. But they are for you, or 932 00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,919 Speaker 1: were for you. Yeah, So being one of those sort 933 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,919 Speaker 1: of like new hunters. Yeah, especially in New York, it's 934 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 1: real difficult. Um, the even if you are very interested 935 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,920 Speaker 1: and you have put in the amount of time and 936 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,680 Speaker 1: research and work that I have, that does not necessarily 937 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: make it any easier. Um, just getting out of the 938 00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,840 Speaker 1: city is difficult for any purpose. Most people do not 939 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,120 Speaker 1: have cars. I was gonna say a lot of folks 940 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,760 Speaker 1: don't have cars. Yeah, you don't have a car, So 941 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,719 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, well, where am I going, how am 942 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,560 Speaker 1: I getting there? And what am I gonna do? Bring 943 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,680 Speaker 1: a deer back on the train with me? Like what 944 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 1: do I what's the And then of course it's like mentorship, 945 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,480 Speaker 1: like okay, who teaches you how to? You know? Obviously 946 00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,640 Speaker 1: I took my hunter safety course, which incidentally, I'm absolutely 947 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 1: signing up to be an instructor because there's maybe just 948 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 1: a couple of them in the city. And tell me 949 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,439 Speaker 1: where where did you take? In Queens? There are two 950 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:13,480 Speaker 1: places offering classes and one was like a really long, 951 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,799 Speaker 1: one full day and I wanted to do that one 952 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,360 Speaker 1: because it was close to my house and it was 953 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: a one and done day and then I couldn't sign 954 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,360 Speaker 1: up in time and it filled it filled up, uh, 955 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,120 Speaker 1: And so I had to take this one in Queens, 956 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,440 Speaker 1: which took me like it was like three days long 957 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 1: or four days long or something. And it's not really 958 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,959 Speaker 1: about you know this class. I don't know the last 959 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 1: time you took that class. But it's not really about hunting. 960 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,120 Speaker 1: It's just about outdoor safety, gun safety. Um, you gotta 961 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,720 Speaker 1: learn the rules and regulations, and I think that's also 962 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,960 Speaker 1: another thing. So in one of the lectures that I give, 963 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,000 Speaker 1: I give a couple of lectures that I travel around 964 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,480 Speaker 1: with and one of them is about the economic and 965 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,879 Speaker 1: environmental value of hunting in America, specifically in America UM 966 00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: and people. One of the parts of that is, Okay, 967 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,280 Speaker 1: if you're talking to young people, city people about hunting 968 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: and maybe they're interested, there's still a skepticism about guns. So, uh, 969 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:21,760 Speaker 1: even if you're skeptical of guns, you tell someone, Okay, well, 970 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,040 Speaker 1: in order to get a hunting license, you have to 971 00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,399 Speaker 1: take it's something like twenty hours of you know, it's 972 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:33,279 Speaker 1: like ten hours of ten hours of online class and 973 00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 1: then another ten or twelve hours of in person class. 974 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:38,520 Speaker 1: And that's what you have to do to get a 975 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,840 Speaker 1: hunting license. Now, to buy a gun, you don't. You 976 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,839 Speaker 1: don't have to do any of that. But to get 977 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,719 Speaker 1: a hunting license, yes you do. And so I think 978 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,719 Speaker 1: that a little bit of that changes people's minds, like okay, yeah, 979 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: the responsible gun ownership and because that's definitely a part 980 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 1: of it for people. And I think that's also a 981 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,880 Speaker 1: part of the rise in uh, you know, crossbows things 982 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,959 Speaker 1: like that, people who want to air on the side 983 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,719 Speaker 1: of bow so that if they have problems with guns. UM. 984 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:09,200 Speaker 1: I try to steer people away from that because my 985 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:14,080 Speaker 1: concern is, even as a would be hunter, my concern 986 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: is for the animal. So I want what I consider 987 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,000 Speaker 1: to be the most effective method of killing an animal. Yeah, 988 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,920 Speaker 1: I've said that recently on this podcast and and for 989 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: for years that that I look at efficacy is is 990 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: a big part of when I get to the actual 991 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,120 Speaker 1: killing the animal. I'm now thinking about the animal, not 992 00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,600 Speaker 1: thinking anymore about myself and what's fair chase or all 993 00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,560 Speaker 1: those other all those other concepts that we have. But 994 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,040 Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear you say it that way, and 995 00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: I think most people I would think that. And if 996 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,280 Speaker 1: you're a new hunter, you've never seen anything die, taking 997 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,440 Speaker 1: a crossbow out and sticking and sticking a deer in 998 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,400 Speaker 1: the guts is I'm sure would turn you away just 999 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,920 Speaker 1: as quickly as you know some some unsafe action with 1000 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,800 Speaker 1: the firearm. So, I mean there's a lot of elements 1001 00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,520 Speaker 1: to it, you know that. That Again, guys like me 1002 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,240 Speaker 1: who've been hunting my whole life, I rarely have to 1003 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,560 Speaker 1: think about unless I run into a new hunter quote unquote. 1004 00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 1: And so I also was just thinking, as you're talking 1005 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: a reality show about a hunter safety course in Queens 1006 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: would be that it was absolutely Yeah, it was that 1007 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,480 Speaker 1: I felt like recording the whole thing. Um was it 1008 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,720 Speaker 1: mostly just brand like guys like yourself and I'd say maybe, 1009 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,760 Speaker 1: I'd say maybe, I'd say maybe one guy and like myself, 1010 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:33,160 Speaker 1: and then there were a couple younger kids and then 1011 00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: a lot of older people. Um. And from a total 1012 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 1: mix of it was mostly men, but definitely some women, 1013 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:47,000 Speaker 1: um and a couple of younger girls um. But definitely 1014 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:51,000 Speaker 1: a huge range of ethnicity and um, yeah, I'd say 1015 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 1: it was a pretty big age range. Yeah, that's that's interesting. 1016 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,520 Speaker 1: Mean there's some dichotomy there that that's lost on those 1017 00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: of us that that are here in Bozeman, and you 1018 00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,360 Speaker 1: know across the country that there's such a that there 1019 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:04,880 Speaker 1: might be a need for this in the in the 1020 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: inner city, and we I often talk about urbanization being 1021 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,440 Speaker 1: one of the threats to hunting. But you know why 1022 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,760 Speaker 1: I was interested to talk to you. I want to 1023 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,080 Speaker 1: get to the history at tax term, because I think 1024 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:15,920 Speaker 1: that's gonna be if that is interesting in anything, But 1025 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 1: it is thinking about like the environment that you know, 1026 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:21,920 Speaker 1: every time I go to New York City up in 1027 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,280 Speaker 1: there many times, but I just look around like this 1028 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: is so wholly different than than many other places in 1029 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: this world, let alone in this country. The perspectives that 1030 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 1: come out in the world views that come out of 1031 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,880 Speaker 1: living in a place like this or so so varied 1032 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: from from what we see, you know here in Montana, 1033 00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:41,920 Speaker 1: where other places I've lived on daily basis, And so 1034 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: it's interesting to come out of kind of that you know, 1035 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,640 Speaker 1: melting pot and into the hunting world. And you know 1036 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: how you think of it, that's and that's I'm not 1037 00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:56,400 Speaker 1: necessarily thinking I'm gonna with these lectures educational seminars that 1038 00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to turn people into hunters necessary only, but 1039 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: I do want them to walk away with a different perspective. 1040 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: And it's mostly just a knowledge of the system. The 1041 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:12,120 Speaker 1: system in America is so effective, and it's just this 1042 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,960 Speaker 1: perfectly closed circle of where the money comes from and 1043 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:20,240 Speaker 1: where the money goes. And uh, it is really really 1044 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:24,240 Speaker 1: beautiful the way it works. And once I tell people that, 1045 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: it's always a positive response. Um, you describe how you know, 1046 01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,600 Speaker 1: describe those interactions because you you just like you said, 1047 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,840 Speaker 1: travel and you give lectures, amen for for looking at 1048 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 1: the structure of it. We often talk about that here 1049 01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:40,720 Speaker 1: is the structure of it's so beautiful, so long lasting. 1050 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:45,040 Speaker 1: It's a century old some of this stuff, um and 1051 01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,480 Speaker 1: and it still works today within the modern construct of 1052 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,720 Speaker 1: our government, our legislation. I'd say it's the most effective 1053 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:54,640 Speaker 1: system in our government because it's completely closed. Um. Yeah, 1054 01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:00,360 Speaker 1: it's really so, I'd say the most honestly, the the 1055 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: the biggest responses I get are when I'm talking to 1056 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,160 Speaker 1: my friends about this, because they trust me as an 1057 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,720 Speaker 1: animal nut and an animal lover. So um. But I 1058 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,000 Speaker 1: had a friend who was very skeptical of hunt, just 1059 01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: couldn't didn't like the idea of it at all. And 1060 01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: she told me, you know, the horror stories about her 1061 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: dad and um or her family members coming home from 1062 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:29,919 Speaker 1: a white tail hunt and her being upset at the 1063 01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,880 Speaker 1: dead deer hanging in the backyard and them teasing her 1064 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,120 Speaker 1: about like killing Bambi and stuff like that, and it's like, 1065 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:40,600 Speaker 1: that's that's what'll do it, you know, and teasing a 1066 01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,960 Speaker 1: small child about a yeah, right, that'll do it. That'll 1067 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: do it, um i. And because of that, I have 1068 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,680 Speaker 1: a whole section in my lecture, so it towards the 1069 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:52,440 Speaker 1: end it's like, yeah, what about guns? And then I 1070 01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:54,640 Speaker 1: go into that, and what about jerks? And I have 1071 01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,560 Speaker 1: a whole what about jerks? And it's like, yeah, there's 1072 01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,600 Speaker 1: jerks out there, just like there are jerks everywhere. But 1073 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, you can look at how the money has spent, 1074 01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,320 Speaker 1: how the system works, and yeah, the point I always 1075 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:07,479 Speaker 1: make is, whether you're a jerk or not, you still 1076 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,760 Speaker 1: have to pay into the system. You know, if you're 1077 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,080 Speaker 1: just you're going out there to shoot a shoot a 1078 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,280 Speaker 1: buck and take the backstraps and you know, throw the 1079 01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,960 Speaker 1: antlers in a bucket and you're and you go about 1080 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,360 Speaker 1: the entire process of hunting as a jerk or a dick, 1081 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,960 Speaker 1: you still are paying. You're still paying your way. You 1082 01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 1: still are bound by the laws, you know, much like, uh, 1083 01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:31,080 Speaker 1: if there's a camper and that campers littering, that does 1084 01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean that's just a jerk, that's a dick. That's 1085 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,840 Speaker 1: a person that doesn't belong in the greater subset of 1086 01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: like outdoor recreationalists. So it's you know, I'm sure of 1087 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,080 Speaker 1: coming from where you are. That's that's the view. The 1088 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,200 Speaker 1: view is, let's let's focus on the very small number 1089 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,400 Speaker 1: of these individuals that are going hunting that just for 1090 01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:53,640 Speaker 1: lack of a better term or assholes. Yeah, well, because 1091 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,680 Speaker 1: that's what you see in heroes, especially in the media 1092 01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,320 Speaker 1: or anywhere you hear about the jerks, you know. Um 1093 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,160 Speaker 1: so I think, but I think we're at a time 1094 01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:08,320 Speaker 1: where I know you've spoken to the Pace brothers and 1095 01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:14,480 Speaker 1: um the tailor sharp from modern Tyler Sharp from modern Huntsman, 1096 01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,240 Speaker 1: and I'm a I'm a huge fan of that publication 1097 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:22,960 Speaker 1: and what they're doing because that that publication, specifically this 1098 01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:28,360 Speaker 1: most recent issue on conservation, that is what will change minds. 1099 01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:32,000 Speaker 1: It's that type of media that might reach people who 1100 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: don't normally see that kind of stuff. And again it's like, okay, 1101 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,240 Speaker 1: well you've got to get that into someone's hands first. 1102 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,560 Speaker 1: And there's and there's there's pockets in the hunting world 1103 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,000 Speaker 1: that just don't like that. They don't like the reskinning 1104 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:48,080 Speaker 1: of hunting. They don't like approaching it that way. They 1105 01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,080 Speaker 1: feel like that's changing the core of what hind is 1106 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: supposed to be and what the culture of our community is. 1107 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:55,680 Speaker 1: They feel like, you know, there's some insular points within it, 1108 01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,120 Speaker 1: and there's parts of that that I see. But to 1109 01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:00,320 Speaker 1: your point, the reason why I had Tyler on and 1110 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,680 Speaker 1: why I love the pace brothers and why I pursued 1111 01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,280 Speaker 1: these things because I want to see a varied look 1112 01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,280 Speaker 1: at what hunting is. It's so it's different to so 1113 01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:12,200 Speaker 1: many people. Modern huntsman Is is a fine example of someone. 1114 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,760 Speaker 1: This is something like through the prism of which Tyler 1115 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,760 Speaker 1: sees hunting. He's a different dude. He's spent a lot 1116 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:21,040 Speaker 1: of time in Africa. He has a worldly sensibility. He's 1117 01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,360 Speaker 1: not just thinking about the white sail in his back. 1118 01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,439 Speaker 1: He already's thinking about the entire conservation landscape. And there's 1119 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:29,480 Speaker 1: great value in that. Yeah, sure it's not the not 1120 01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,520 Speaker 1: the way hunting has been portrayed and for most of 1121 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,600 Speaker 1: the last two decades. But I think it's it's valuable. 1122 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,840 Speaker 1: It's the good to hear you say that, Like in 1123 01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,800 Speaker 1: the places where hunting just doesn't have the right representation, 1124 01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,760 Speaker 1: that could be a new way to do it, which 1125 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,240 Speaker 1: is is value. I see only value in that. I 1126 01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,480 Speaker 1: don't see any detracting from what we have right well, 1127 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,760 Speaker 1: because I think that so the people that are going 1128 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:56,240 Speaker 1: to continue who already hunt and are going to continue hunting, 1129 01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 1: or the people who come from a family of hunters 1130 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:05,000 Speaker 1: here young father Wren. So there's those people are going 1131 01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:08,240 Speaker 1: to continue hunting and continue hunting in their family already. 1132 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,960 Speaker 1: But if truly the number of hunters is declining, then 1133 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,160 Speaker 1: you need to bring on new people. And the reason 1134 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,080 Speaker 1: the new people don't come on is because they either 1135 01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: have these negative connotations or you know. And then the 1136 01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,200 Speaker 1: more difficult thing is how do you get people who 1137 01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,320 Speaker 1: are willing, um and interested involved in you know, a 1138 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:27,960 Speaker 1: world that you know that kind of stuff is not 1139 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,360 Speaker 1: so easy and it's very expensive. Yeah, did you did 1140 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:33,480 Speaker 1: you run into that? Jumping into hunting like you did? 1141 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: Did you run into any I always say because it's 1142 01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:39,040 Speaker 1: not about me, But I always think of like I 1143 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,720 Speaker 1: want to build a bridge. I want there to be 1144 01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:43,400 Speaker 1: a place where people can come and feel like they're 1145 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:44,880 Speaker 1: They don't have to think a certain way or look 1146 01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: a certain way to be a hunter. They can just be. 1147 01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,120 Speaker 1: They can just pursue it for the reasons that they 1148 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,400 Speaker 1: want to. Sometimes the honey community is not real good 1149 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:54,640 Speaker 1: at like saying come over here, but you gotta think this. 1150 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,680 Speaker 1: If not, we're gonna kick you out. I have I 1151 01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:00,880 Speaker 1: have huge problem with that. So as you kind of 1152 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,160 Speaker 1: jumped into this, I mean you're given lectures you um, 1153 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,080 Speaker 1: there's a lot of parts of your professional life. They're 1154 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 1: inclusion in hunting. If you run into any any points 1155 01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:13,200 Speaker 1: where you're just like, man, this this sucks. You mean 1156 01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,560 Speaker 1: from just from opposition, just from a hunter standpoint, where 1157 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,400 Speaker 1: you just didn't feel you feel like if if you 1158 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:20,400 Speaker 1: you had to be a certain way to fit in 1159 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,920 Speaker 1: or you know. I'm a little conscious of that when 1160 01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm meeting with people who are long time, like old 1161 01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:33,320 Speaker 1: school hunters, um I, and I think it's kind of 1162 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,240 Speaker 1: like you, I'm interested in listening to their viewpoint because 1163 01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,480 Speaker 1: that's very important for me to absorb where all these 1164 01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,240 Speaker 1: other people are coming from, especially when I'm relaying that 1165 01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:48,560 Speaker 1: to a group of you know, would be new hunters 1166 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,160 Speaker 1: or people that I'm trying to convince hunting is good 1167 01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,320 Speaker 1: for the environment. I've been lucky that I haven't I 1168 01:06:55,360 --> 01:07:01,560 Speaker 1: haven't bumped into any negative negative vibes from anyone yet. 1169 01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:07,320 Speaker 1: Um And but but I I haven't put it past anyone. 1170 01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,000 Speaker 1: I've been. I've been looking enough, and I've been in 1171 01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,200 Speaker 1: situations where I can talk to someone long enough that 1172 01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,800 Speaker 1: they can listen to they can listen to everything. I 1173 01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,760 Speaker 1: was at a last the last place I spoke at 1174 01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: was a a Science and Skepticism Uh Nexus Northeast Conference 1175 01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,160 Speaker 1: on Science and Skepticism. That's a brave that's a brave 1176 01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,040 Speaker 1: man to walk into the skepticism department like, hey, here's 1177 01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,120 Speaker 1: what here's my view point. It was It was perfect 1178 01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,400 Speaker 1: because a lot of people have spoken the whole weekend 1179 01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,160 Speaker 1: about the anti anti vax movement, and they're like, Okay, 1180 01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,240 Speaker 1: we're a room full of medical scientists, and what do 1181 01:07:43,240 --> 01:07:47,640 Speaker 1: we do about this anti vaccination movement? We have all 1182 01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:52,440 Speaker 1: of this information and all the numbers and the science 1183 01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,720 Speaker 1: all adds up, and what do we do about people's perception? 1184 01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 1: Why can't you Why is it so difficult to prove 1185 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,200 Speaker 1: things with facts? And so then I come out there 1186 01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:07,080 Speaker 1: and I immediately talk about like it's good to hunt 1187 01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,840 Speaker 1: if you care about the environment, and it kind of 1188 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:15,439 Speaker 1: blew people's minds. And but then you just lay that 1189 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,080 Speaker 1: that same logic on them, like you don't take my 1190 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,040 Speaker 1: word for it. Go look into the system, look at 1191 01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:21,639 Speaker 1: how it works. Look where the money comes from, Look 1192 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,759 Speaker 1: where the money goes um And you know, the government 1193 01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,320 Speaker 1: will get money from somewhere and it might as well 1194 01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:33,200 Speaker 1: be from people who want to keep wild lands wild. 1195 01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:35,280 Speaker 1: And you know, Yeah. We were just talking about that 1196 01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:38,000 Speaker 1: in the last podcast, about how it is a closed loop. 1197 01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:41,280 Speaker 1: To your point, it is you have a constituency that 1198 01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:45,360 Speaker 1: is willingly paying this this exercise tax, willingly paying these 1199 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:48,840 Speaker 1: tag fees and and oftentimes arguing for them to be 1200 01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,280 Speaker 1: The duck stamp is one of the only federal legislations 1201 01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,479 Speaker 1: that that we're arguing raise it. The constitutions are like, great, 1202 01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,080 Speaker 1: we don't care raise it. So you have a willing 1203 01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:00,240 Speaker 1: constituency paying into a system that benefits them been fit's 1204 01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:02,559 Speaker 1: the wild life that they pursue and benefits the place 1205 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:04,720 Speaker 1: at the wild places they'd like to go. This is 1206 01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,000 Speaker 1: like on this on this massive scale, over decades and decades, 1207 01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:11,160 Speaker 1: going back to you know, Pittman Robertson and the Lacy 1208 01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:13,360 Speaker 1: Act and all these things that we're that are eighty 1209 01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,520 Speaker 1: ninety years old that are still to this day effective 1210 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,599 Speaker 1: on a federal and and sometimes on a state level. 1211 01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:22,720 Speaker 1: So I mean, it's it's amazing. That's how every one 1212 01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,360 Speaker 1: of my lectures ends is me telling people to buy 1213 01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,840 Speaker 1: duck stamps. You don't have to be a hunter, you 1214 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,360 Speaker 1: don't have to hunt, just buy a duck stamp, because 1215 01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: that is stamp on your notebook. Yes, exactly, do whatever 1216 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,719 Speaker 1: you want. But it's the most direct money directly goes 1217 01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:39,960 Speaker 1: right there. You don't have to question where does this go? 1218 01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:44,200 Speaker 1: You know, it's like nine point five per like scents 1219 01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:48,000 Speaker 1: some every dollar or something. Yeah. It's also I find myself, 1220 01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:49,559 Speaker 1: you know, thinking a lot the same way you do. 1221 01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,400 Speaker 1: It's like we have this this really good example of 1222 01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,320 Speaker 1: how to manage a resource that we all value. I 1223 01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:58,160 Speaker 1: mean we all hold the same but people in Brooklyn 1224 01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:01,760 Speaker 1: that value animals and want them to to thrive and 1225 01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,880 Speaker 1: live and be there and appreciate them, they think the 1226 01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:06,680 Speaker 1: same way I think. I want them to thrive and 1227 01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,760 Speaker 1: live and be there and I appreciate them. So you know, 1228 01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,400 Speaker 1: we have that in common. And what we also have 1229 01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:14,320 Speaker 1: in common is like one of the best systems of 1230 01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:18,200 Speaker 1: funding for for management and conservation that there is that 1231 01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:20,320 Speaker 1: I know of, that I've ever heard of. So there's 1232 01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:22,000 Speaker 1: that common ground. It's good to see you going out 1233 01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,320 Speaker 1: there and highlight that common ground with folks. And and 1234 01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,479 Speaker 1: I don't imagine you've ever had somebody stand up say 1235 01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:29,400 Speaker 1: I don't agree with that, because it's not pretty infallible 1236 01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,160 Speaker 1: in the way that's set up. That's what it's good 1237 01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:32,720 Speaker 1: to know. But I think we should get to the 1238 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,400 Speaker 1: history of tax m I heard you telling one Ryan 1239 01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,559 Speaker 1: Callahan out there, the guy with the mustache, that one 1240 01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:41,400 Speaker 1: time I would you pick up a pigeon you were 1241 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,760 Speaker 1: in Uh yeah, it was a morning dove of morning dove. 1242 01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,240 Speaker 1: So I think this is probably a good way to 1243 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,120 Speaker 1: illustrate your love for animals and then also how it 1244 01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: spends in tax term. So tell us a story about 1245 01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:53,479 Speaker 1: the time you picked up the morning dove on the 1246 01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:59,280 Speaker 1: street took it home. Um, maybe it was, but yeah, 1247 01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:01,840 Speaker 1: I was I was going to the movies and uh, 1248 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,280 Speaker 1: I was walking to the theater and I walked past this, 1249 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:10,320 Speaker 1: uh pigeon that had flown into a window, and uh, 1250 01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,559 Speaker 1: I always keep a plastic bag with me, so I 1251 01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:15,559 Speaker 1: do the old Cooper Scooper method and just picked him 1252 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: right up off the ground and stuck him in my 1253 01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:19,400 Speaker 1: backpack and then just kept going to the movie theater. 1254 01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,960 Speaker 1: So watched the movie and then had to take the 1255 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,280 Speaker 1: train home at the end, and yeah, the the inside 1256 01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:27,040 Speaker 1: of my freezer is so you went, Nie, you watched 1257 01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:31,840 Speaker 1: the movie with the Dead Yeah, with the Dead burden? Yeah, okay, 1258 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:38,600 Speaker 1: says a lot about I'm concerned but also intrigued. And 1259 01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,440 Speaker 1: so you just you went home and then you Yeah, 1260 01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,439 Speaker 1: he's been in my freezer for a while. I had 1261 01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:46,160 Speaker 1: to do a little bit of a freezer clean out 1262 01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:48,760 Speaker 1: a while ago because I was getting packed in there 1263 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,880 Speaker 1: with roadkill and somebody's got to do it, man. Yeah. Yeah, 1264 01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:55,240 Speaker 1: that's the thing, you know. I live in Brooklyn, so 1265 01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,559 Speaker 1: I don't come across a lot of moose. Um so 1266 01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,519 Speaker 1: a lot weird if Yeah. Yeah, So I tell people 1267 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:02,960 Speaker 1: I'll tax on me anything that will fit in my 1268 01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:06,800 Speaker 1: freezer in Brooklyn. It's good. Hey, Stevenell lived like that 1269 01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,320 Speaker 1: for a long time. It works. It works. So you 1270 01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,160 Speaker 1: give a lecture called the History of tax Remy. We're 1271 01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,120 Speaker 1: not gonna we don't want to blow the whole the 1272 01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:16,240 Speaker 1: whole thing here for everybody. Um, they certainly go to 1273 01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,800 Speaker 1: your website and find out where you are. I'm sure, yeah, Um. 1274 01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,200 Speaker 1: But the history at tax Dmy, I know for my 1275 01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,320 Speaker 1: reason things that I know. It gets. It goes so 1276 01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,040 Speaker 1: many places culturally, and it gets into like anthropology and 1277 01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,040 Speaker 1: zoology and just the history of our relationship with animals. 1278 01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,439 Speaker 1: And as you're speaking about earlier, so when you when 1279 01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:35,599 Speaker 1: you talk about the history at Taccidenty, where do you start? 1280 01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:37,919 Speaker 1: What's the first thing you said? So that Yeah, what 1281 01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,559 Speaker 1: what you just said is a great encapsulation. That's why 1282 01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:44,640 Speaker 1: I like the history of tax Urmy as a history 1283 01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,599 Speaker 1: subject so much because it does cover so many bases. 1284 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,920 Speaker 1: And I love animals, so it's all about animals, but 1285 01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:56,080 Speaker 1: you are also getting so much of global exploration and 1286 01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:58,479 Speaker 1: the history of people's and then think is much the 1287 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,599 Speaker 1: same way, right, I mean, yeah, you learned the history 1288 01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,200 Speaker 1: of hunting. You kind of learned there's these spider webs 1289 01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,320 Speaker 1: and and you know cracks in the foundation that leads 1290 01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,559 Speaker 1: you in these other places about that. So that's cool. 1291 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:14,040 Speaker 1: Um yeah, So I always um, I throw up a 1292 01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:17,479 Speaker 1: slide up there of the ancient Egyptians and immediately say, 1293 01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,879 Speaker 1: we are not talking about them. What the ancient Egyptians 1294 01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:23,320 Speaker 1: did was momification. That is very different from taxes or me. 1295 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:27,479 Speaker 1: But what they did know was how to preserve stuff, 1296 01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,680 Speaker 1: and we have great examples of that. Um. So they 1297 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,920 Speaker 1: understood the importance of drying and really taxed me is 1298 01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:40,479 Speaker 1: about extremely controlled drying. If you can clean something and 1299 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,559 Speaker 1: dry it well enough, it'll last a very long time. 1300 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:48,760 Speaker 1: So the ancient Egyptians understood that. And then so then 1301 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:54,640 Speaker 1: you get into a period from like fifteen hundreds on 1302 01:13:55,000 --> 01:14:00,200 Speaker 1: and you get these cabinets of curiosity where now people 1303 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:02,840 Speaker 1: have enough money that they've got their own ships and 1304 01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,120 Speaker 1: they want to explore the world, and because of that, 1305 01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:08,000 Speaker 1: they want to bring back souvenirs. So it's like, what 1306 01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:09,920 Speaker 1: are you going to bring back? And how can you 1307 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,840 Speaker 1: bring it back if you don't preserve it properly. So 1308 01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:16,000 Speaker 1: most things were not preserved properly. They just looked like 1309 01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,360 Speaker 1: garbage or they fall apart or whatever. But um, they 1310 01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:23,240 Speaker 1: would have these rooms that are really the precursors to 1311 01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:26,680 Speaker 1: the modern day museum. So you had a room in 1312 01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:30,560 Speaker 1: your house, like a very large like a study or 1313 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,240 Speaker 1: a den, but it had all of these artifacts all 1314 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:35,280 Speaker 1: over the walls, of stuff that you had collected on 1315 01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:41,240 Speaker 1: your travels, and um, that sort of turned into our 1316 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:46,599 Speaker 1: modern day museums. And uh, the first, the first museum 1317 01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:52,880 Speaker 1: in America was in Philadelphia, and uh, these early museums, 1318 01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,759 Speaker 1: it was still sort of cabinet of curiosity asque things 1319 01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:02,720 Speaker 1: weren't labeled in catalog didn Uh, they were just kind 1320 01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:04,439 Speaker 1: of stuff thrown up on the walls for you to 1321 01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,520 Speaker 1: look at, and they would have a vague um information 1322 01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,519 Speaker 1: of like where it came from or something like that. 1323 01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:15,080 Speaker 1: But uh, when you had the the the earliest ones 1324 01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:20,240 Speaker 1: that actually practiced Lenaean taxonomy and actually listing things and 1325 01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:24,280 Speaker 1: organizing species, and then you sort of get into these 1326 01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:29,120 Speaker 1: modern day museums that were able to showcase the the 1327 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:31,519 Speaker 1: animals more in tax nomy is getting a little better 1328 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,559 Speaker 1: at this point, is it? Is it safe to say 1329 01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,520 Speaker 1: like at this early stage, like the Museum of Oddities 1330 01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,920 Speaker 1: approaches more where tax nomy sat prior to the more 1331 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,400 Speaker 1: kind of well intellectual precisions. So it was definitely it 1332 01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:46,960 Speaker 1: was a private thing. So if you, um, if you 1333 01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,840 Speaker 1: had the money, then you would have if you were 1334 01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,960 Speaker 1: it was it was a popular Victorian era hobby, not 1335 01:15:55,080 --> 01:16:00,840 Speaker 1: just for hunters but um uh to preserve things and 1336 01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,280 Speaker 1: get better at preserving things. It was sort of this 1337 01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:08,479 Speaker 1: mix of it was really about collecting, so people would 1338 01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:11,400 Speaker 1: be really obsessed with birds and they might try to 1339 01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:16,680 Speaker 1: get every particular species of seabird that lived near where 1340 01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:21,160 Speaker 1: they lived or something, or bird eggs or what have you. Um, 1341 01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:23,280 Speaker 1: But it was a lot of it was about collecting 1342 01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:29,360 Speaker 1: and um sort of showing off your collection. Hunting was 1343 01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:31,960 Speaker 1: a big part of that UM once you had the 1344 01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,080 Speaker 1: money to start traveling and bringing back the animals that 1345 01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:39,040 Speaker 1: you had hunted. UM. There was definitely that element to it, 1346 01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:48,120 Speaker 1: UM preserving, uh, preserving specimens from your own hunts. But 1347 01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:53,479 Speaker 1: there was also the museum aspect really was about showing 1348 01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:57,599 Speaker 1: off animals to people who didn't normally get a chance 1349 01:16:57,640 --> 01:16:59,800 Speaker 1: to see these things. You know, there's no TV, there's 1350 01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:02,000 Speaker 1: no so it was when you went to the museum 1351 01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,240 Speaker 1: and you could see all these different species from all 1352 01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:11,080 Speaker 1: over the globe. UM, there's a this is earlier, UM, 1353 01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:14,280 Speaker 1: earlier in the history of taxes. I mean, one character 1354 01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,599 Speaker 1: who I really like talk about is Martha and Maxwell. 1355 01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:22,920 Speaker 1: She's very cool lady who um she and her husband, Uh, 1356 01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:27,360 Speaker 1: we're moving out to I can't remember. It's Colorado, Colorado 1357 01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:32,519 Speaker 1: and yeah, they called her the Colorado Huntress. And her 1358 01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:34,439 Speaker 1: husband's like, yeah, I want to go pan for gold. 1359 01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:39,200 Speaker 1: And so they get this house and she wants to 1360 01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:41,320 Speaker 1: He's like, you take care of the house. I gotta 1361 01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:43,000 Speaker 1: go pan for gold. And she goes to the house 1362 01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,160 Speaker 1: and there's some guy living in it, and uh, she's like, 1363 01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,240 Speaker 1: you have the house, and so they go back and forth, 1364 01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:51,439 Speaker 1: and she eventually is able to lock him out of 1365 01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:53,719 Speaker 1: the house so she can get back into it, because 1366 01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:55,960 Speaker 1: she's like, this is the house we bought. And she 1367 01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:57,880 Speaker 1: goes inside and there's a bunch of like half finished 1368 01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:01,640 Speaker 1: tax remy projects and she's like whoa uh, and but 1369 01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,200 Speaker 1: she's kind of into it. And then just from those 1370 01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,479 Speaker 1: pieces being in the place, she picked it up and 1371 01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:12,360 Speaker 1: taught herself and finished the pieces and eventually was the 1372 01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:17,760 Speaker 1: representative from the state of Colorado to this huge Philadelphia 1373 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:22,160 Speaker 1: like World exposition where all the states were very proudly 1374 01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,120 Speaker 1: showing off the best of their state, and she represented 1375 01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:27,799 Speaker 1: the entire state of Colorado with just her tax in jermy. 1376 01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:31,559 Speaker 1: That was what Colorado picked to represent. So it's like 1377 01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:36,160 Speaker 1: that was a big deal. Um, what years are So 1378 01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:42,400 Speaker 1: this is like this is eighteen hundreds, let's see early 1379 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:47,559 Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds. Um, I can't I don't have all 1380 01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:49,000 Speaker 1: my notes in front of me, Like I'm not gonna 1381 01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:53,320 Speaker 1: remember I'm always I'm always missing out on dates and data. Um. 1382 01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:59,040 Speaker 1: But but basically two so two guys who we consider 1383 01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:05,120 Speaker 1: kind of the fathers of modern day taxidermy. Oh yeah, 1384 01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:11,120 Speaker 1: she's bad ass. Yeah, she's she's great. They named an 1385 01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,400 Speaker 1: owl after her. She's very cool. Yeah, look her up 1386 01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:20,599 Speaker 1: and Martha and Maxwell, she's a cool lady. And yeah. 1387 01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:24,200 Speaker 1: So like we consider like William T. Hornaday or Carl Alakeley, 1388 01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,840 Speaker 1: these like fathers of modern day taxidermy, and you know, 1389 01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:30,080 Speaker 1: they were just kids when Martha was doing all this stuff. 1390 01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:34,920 Speaker 1: Um now, they were much better at it than she was. 1391 01:19:35,080 --> 01:19:37,759 Speaker 1: But she was completely self taught. And at the time, 1392 01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:40,160 Speaker 1: no one had seen stuff like that. No one had 1393 01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:45,120 Speaker 1: thought to put, yeah, that's her, that's her exposition. So 1394 01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,959 Speaker 1: so so the fact that she had animals in natural 1395 01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:55,680 Speaker 1: poses amongst trees and their natural environment, that was like 1396 01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:57,960 Speaker 1: a new thing. Normally, you would just put a head 1397 01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:00,080 Speaker 1: on a wall, or you just had sort of this 1398 01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,960 Speaker 1: static animal standing in the middle of a room. But 1399 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:09,360 Speaker 1: these were leaping deer, and uh so it was revolutionary. 1400 01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:13,400 Speaker 1: Eighteen seventy six, it says that her there's a stereographic 1401 01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,760 Speaker 1: picture of her Rocky Mountain display, and it just it is. 1402 01:20:15,800 --> 01:20:18,360 Speaker 1: It shows a care as an elk kind of running 1403 01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:21,559 Speaker 1: through a meadow. There's a prong horn, there's a leaping 1404 01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,920 Speaker 1: mule deer that is running away from a mountain. Lion. 1405 01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:28,040 Speaker 1: This is all, you know, like a nature scape surrounding it. So, 1406 01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:30,080 Speaker 1: like you said, I think there's looks like a bear 1407 01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:32,519 Speaker 1: two in there. So it's yeah, it's like an early 1408 01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,360 Speaker 1: wildlife dirama. Now all of those things wouldn't be happening 1409 01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:37,920 Speaker 1: in that space, but you know she wanted to really 1410 01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:42,320 Speaker 1: show it off. Maybe it was just that many many 1411 01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:46,280 Speaker 1: around um, but that's it's really to me. I mean, 1412 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:48,680 Speaker 1: looking at something from eighteen seventy six, you're starting to 1413 01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:52,760 Speaker 1: see what you see today, you know, a real appreciation 1414 01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:56,679 Speaker 1: of the natural interaction of animals and depicting that through 1415 01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:01,639 Speaker 1: through taxidentary. It's pretty cool. Yeah, And I think there's say, uh, 1416 01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:06,320 Speaker 1: people don't really understand what goes into a good taxidermy 1417 01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:10,040 Speaker 1: amount and I think they just see taxidermy as its 1418 01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:14,720 Speaker 1: own separate thing, as opposed to an art form, and 1419 01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:19,479 Speaker 1: it really really people need to respect it as an 1420 01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,439 Speaker 1: art form. I can't tell you how many times I've 1421 01:21:21,479 --> 01:21:23,920 Speaker 1: had to answer the question, and you maybe just being 1422 01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,759 Speaker 1: an expert in taxidermy and living in in the city, 1423 01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:29,240 Speaker 1: how many times people have asked me, is that to 1424 01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,559 Speaker 1: realize is that the real tongue? Is it the real animal? 1425 01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:37,000 Speaker 1: Under there like, and just the the lack of understanding 1426 01:21:37,080 --> 01:21:39,960 Speaker 1: of of those things. And when I would go, you know, 1427 01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,160 Speaker 1: be on a immediate trip or something, I would go 1428 01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,000 Speaker 1: to a real fancy ranch house, never be a bunch 1429 01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:47,880 Speaker 1: of like guests touring the west and out in Colorado, 1430 01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,000 Speaker 1: and they would look at a giant elkin. At first, 1431 01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:53,880 Speaker 1: they would kind of you know, tense up and and 1432 01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:56,280 Speaker 1: take a few steps back and then ask the questions 1433 01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,040 Speaker 1: that it's like, is that was that? Is that the 1434 01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:05,800 Speaker 1: real animal? Is that what's under the hair? Yeah? Yeah, 1435 01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:07,519 Speaker 1: when you look at it, when you look at a 1436 01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,120 Speaker 1: piece like that, and it's almost it's kind of fun 1437 01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,280 Speaker 1: when they can't tell if that's the real nose or 1438 01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:16,160 Speaker 1: the real eyes. From the point exactly, it's kind of 1439 01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:20,120 Speaker 1: the point and if you've really, really, really done your job, 1440 01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:24,680 Speaker 1: then you shouldn't be able to tell much of a difference. Um. 1441 01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:28,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, to understand so those early tech Now now 1442 01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 1: you can buy a form already made form, and you 1443 01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,920 Speaker 1: can to a certain extent, slip the skin right on 1444 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,680 Speaker 1: top of it. Now you do have to make you 1445 01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:39,280 Speaker 1: do have to make adjustments based on the size of 1446 01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:43,360 Speaker 1: your animal. But up after that, exactly make it real pretty. 1447 01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:46,800 Speaker 1: But what's Martha and Maxwell doing exactly? So these are 1448 01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:51,680 Speaker 1: people who had to build their their forms, their mannequins 1449 01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,320 Speaker 1: from scratch, and in order to do that, you must 1450 01:22:55,360 --> 01:23:00,559 Speaker 1: be a sculptor. When uh, when the tag service for 1451 01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:03,599 Speaker 1: the American Museum of Natural History, when they're making all 1452 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:07,840 Speaker 1: of those forms, those are all hand sculpted. If you 1453 01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:13,160 Speaker 1: cannot perfectly sculpt the musculature of a Kodiak beard, it's 1454 01:23:13,200 --> 01:23:16,479 Speaker 1: not gonna it's not gonna when you put that skin 1455 01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:19,519 Speaker 1: back on, it's not gonna look right. Um, it all 1456 01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:23,120 Speaker 1: had to be hand sculpted in or somebody like that 1457 01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:26,920 Speaker 1: living in the middle of uh, seemingly nowhere getting I mean, 1458 01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:29,800 Speaker 1: is it? How are the sculpting? Yeah? So that well, 1459 01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,400 Speaker 1: so the sculptures came a little bit later. What what 1460 01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:37,880 Speaker 1: earlier taxidermists were doing was a form of what's called rapping. 1461 01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:41,479 Speaker 1: And so you might use the skeleton to help you 1462 01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,160 Speaker 1: get an idea of how to build a little armature 1463 01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:46,840 Speaker 1: out of wood or something. And then once you have 1464 01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:51,280 Speaker 1: that really really basic armature on top of that, you 1465 01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:55,240 Speaker 1: start literally wrapping over and over and over again twine 1466 01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:58,639 Speaker 1: or some kind of twine string, and what you're doing 1467 01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:05,240 Speaker 1: is mimicking the muscle strands in your body. So you 1468 01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:08,400 Speaker 1: are one after another, over and over and over again. 1469 01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:12,120 Speaker 1: You are creating the musculature of that animal over this 1470 01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:18,360 Speaker 1: very simple rudimentary uh mannequin, but you have to sculpt 1471 01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:21,599 Speaker 1: it with twine um. And then later on we get 1472 01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:25,920 Speaker 1: more advanced techniques where you use again you use the 1473 01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:30,519 Speaker 1: skeleton to help you build a rudimentary armature, and then 1474 01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:34,800 Speaker 1: after that you are sculpting with clay the all the 1475 01:24:34,880 --> 01:24:38,639 Speaker 1: musculature of the animal. And then after that you make 1476 01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:43,599 Speaker 1: a mold and then that mold is lighter and more 1477 01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:48,519 Speaker 1: stable for the for the long term. But yeah, that's 1478 01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:50,439 Speaker 1: when you get into the sculpture. And now you can 1479 01:24:50,479 --> 01:24:53,160 Speaker 1: still do that if you're real serious about making something 1480 01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,240 Speaker 1: from scratch. But they're also you know, taxidermy catalogs and 1481 01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:59,080 Speaker 1: you can you can get your pre made. In the 1482 01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:02,840 Speaker 1: turn of the center, tanning hides was very common common thing, 1483 01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,160 Speaker 1: so there's no no bury entry there. It's more to 1484 01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:07,160 Speaker 1: the art of the form and how do you how 1485 01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:10,280 Speaker 1: do you create a lifelike version of that tan hide 1486 01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:15,600 Speaker 1: over there? Right? And the it was because taxidermy was 1487 01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:19,360 Speaker 1: so popular in the late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, 1488 01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:23,400 Speaker 1: especially with everybody going on these early safaris to Africa 1489 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:29,360 Speaker 1: and the early nineteen hundreds, Um, there was this huge 1490 01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:33,600 Speaker 1: boom in taxidermy. I mean there were some towns that 1491 01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:38,639 Speaker 1: had eighteen taxidermists in the town. Um, it was massive, 1492 01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:47,679 Speaker 1: and there were Uh an ornithologist at the American Museum 1493 01:25:47,720 --> 01:25:51,559 Speaker 1: of Natural History walked down I believe it was Fifth 1494 01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:54,880 Speaker 1: Avenue in New York once and he counted something like 1495 01:25:56,120 --> 01:26:01,400 Speaker 1: two hundred different species of birds on women's hats in 1496 01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:06,040 Speaker 1: one day. So it was and this was before we 1497 01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:12,080 Speaker 1: had all these protection regulations. So it was part of that, um, 1498 01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:16,280 Speaker 1: the sort of the bad, all the bad that led 1499 01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:19,080 Speaker 1: to the good. So you know, you get like the 1500 01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:23,040 Speaker 1: extinction of the passenger pigeon because you know, no one 1501 01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,400 Speaker 1: knew what there was no bag what's a bag limit, 1502 01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, and there were so many of them. They'd 1503 01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:29,240 Speaker 1: say that you could look up and you wouldn't be 1504 01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:31,599 Speaker 1: able to see the sky. There were so many passenger pigeons, 1505 01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,760 Speaker 1: and so people would just shoot the hell out of 1506 01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,599 Speaker 1: them and then they'd sell them in the market as 1507 01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:42,080 Speaker 1: meat or anything. So and uh, feathers from different wild 1508 01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:46,840 Speaker 1: birds were extremely popular as something that you would put 1509 01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,360 Speaker 1: as part of a hat or an outfit in the 1510 01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:55,200 Speaker 1: Victorian era, and this led to just huge markets for 1511 01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:59,920 Speaker 1: wild animal pelts and feathers. When you kind of the 1512 01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,040 Speaker 1: lead or take away the regulation from the equation, taxidermy 1513 01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:05,960 Speaker 1: becomes a whole different thing, you know, a whole different thing. 1514 01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:08,960 Speaker 1: It's serving a whole different, whole different audience at that point, 1515 01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:12,719 Speaker 1: um and then in stern essentially how connected what's taxi 1516 01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,200 Speaker 1: army too? You know what we'll call kind of the 1517 01:27:16,040 --> 01:27:19,479 Speaker 1: raping and pillaging of of our wildlife resource because because 1518 01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:21,719 Speaker 1: I think of it as I don't know this, hopefully 1519 01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,560 Speaker 1: we can get to it. I think of it as 1520 01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:29,439 Speaker 1: certainly when you know, refrigeration and the railroads starting to 1521 01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:33,439 Speaker 1: poke westward, and then then the urban centers could kind 1522 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,840 Speaker 1: of connect to the western landscapes and even into the 1523 01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:40,719 Speaker 1: Midwestern landscapes and say, hey, we need meat, we need pelts, 1524 01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,639 Speaker 1: we need hides, and now you know, now we can 1525 01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:45,920 Speaker 1: put it in a fridge and put it on a 1526 01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:48,760 Speaker 1: railroad car and send it back. And so that's that 1527 01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:52,919 Speaker 1: connective tissue is really more tangible at that at this juncture, 1528 01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:56,800 Speaker 1: taxi army certainly I'm sure enjoyed a boom from that 1529 01:27:57,400 --> 01:28:01,360 Speaker 1: from those times. Yeah. Um yeah, it's funny that you 1530 01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:05,280 Speaker 1: bring up the the railroads, I mean refrigeration and you 1531 01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:10,840 Speaker 1: know that's how uh So the modern idea of what 1532 01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:15,040 Speaker 1: a of like preserving a person after they die for 1533 01:28:15,160 --> 01:28:18,519 Speaker 1: funeral viewing, like if you're gonna get embalmed. The whole 1534 01:28:18,560 --> 01:28:21,960 Speaker 1: reason for embalming was just during the Civil War people 1535 01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:25,280 Speaker 1: people used to die at home and you would have 1536 01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:27,720 Speaker 1: people in the parlor and they would lay there and 1537 01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:31,120 Speaker 1: you could come and pay respects. And during the Civil 1538 01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:35,160 Speaker 1: War people were dying so far from home, it was 1539 01:28:35,240 --> 01:28:37,679 Speaker 1: like what do we how do we get them back home? 1540 01:28:38,240 --> 01:28:41,640 Speaker 1: And that was sort of the whole invention of embalmbing. 1541 01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:46,280 Speaker 1: You know today it's almost like, oh, yeah, you have 1542 01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:48,680 Speaker 1: someone embalmed and you put them in a casket and 1543 01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:50,960 Speaker 1: that's just what's normal. But it's like, no, there's no 1544 01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:54,160 Speaker 1: cultural history behind. We just needed to get dead bodies 1545 01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:59,640 Speaker 1: from here to there. And um uh But yeah, so 1546 01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,760 Speaker 1: with the animals, I mean, so Carl Lakeley was in 1547 01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:09,479 Speaker 1: Africa and if he was getting elephants for a museum, 1548 01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:12,360 Speaker 1: everything had to be done in the field, and that 1549 01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:14,680 Speaker 1: is I mean that's just great. You're out in the 1550 01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:17,040 Speaker 1: middle of with the sun baking down on you and 1551 01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:19,800 Speaker 1: you have to completely skin and you have I mean 1552 01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:23,080 Speaker 1: it was gutting and skinning elephants and gutting and skilling 1553 01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:26,320 Speaker 1: skinning elephants. Not only that, but once the skin is off, 1554 01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:30,599 Speaker 1: you had to take the most precise measurements of every 1555 01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:32,920 Speaker 1: single part of that body because you would have to 1556 01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:35,120 Speaker 1: replicate it once you got back to the museum. So 1557 01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:39,960 Speaker 1: it's it's all of the all of the gutting and 1558 01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:42,880 Speaker 1: skinning plus all these measurements plus you know, you got it. 1559 01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,280 Speaker 1: Now you gotta get this giant heavy skin bac somewhere 1560 01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:48,439 Speaker 1: and the I mean these guys are doing it just 1561 01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, with a small crew. Um. But yeah, that 1562 01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,200 Speaker 1: all had to be done in the field, preserved to 1563 01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,680 Speaker 1: an extent that they could get it back to New 1564 01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,280 Speaker 1: York and then do everything else in the in the 1565 01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,840 Speaker 1: museum there. Um, you know, the museum doesn't have tax 1566 01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:08,680 Speaker 1: enermists on staff anymore. We pretty much have all the 1567 01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:14,840 Speaker 1: all the taxidermy. Yeah, but they do, Um, they will 1568 01:30:14,920 --> 01:30:17,400 Speaker 1: contract out if if things need to be repaired. Um, 1569 01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:20,400 Speaker 1: there's a guy named George Dante and he's awesome. He 1570 01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:25,679 Speaker 1: has an awesome tax ermist. He he built The National 1571 01:30:25,720 --> 01:30:29,600 Speaker 1: Geographic did a cover story on it once of a 1572 01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:34,719 Speaker 1: it's a fake elephant tusk that was made to put 1573 01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:39,400 Speaker 1: a transporter chip in so that this elephant tusk could 1574 01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,720 Speaker 1: be introduced into the black market ivory trade and we 1575 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:46,840 Speaker 1: could follow its progression through the black market. And he 1576 01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:50,640 Speaker 1: made that. Um and he does the so much of 1577 01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:55,080 Speaker 1: the museum tax ermy and text remy repair. Um uh. 1578 01:30:56,560 --> 01:31:00,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean there's some really phenomenal artist. It's 1579 01:31:00,160 --> 01:31:01,920 Speaker 1: not there. I mean, if you can look up the 1580 01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:06,240 Speaker 1: World Taxidermy Championships, I mean, the stuff that is that 1581 01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:10,760 Speaker 1: comes in and out of that show is unbelieving. There 1582 01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:12,920 Speaker 1: is Yeah, I've never seen that. But I mean I 1583 01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:16,240 Speaker 1: go to Sfari Club International shows and you go there 1584 01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:20,160 Speaker 1: and you just see, you know, animal art, taxidermy and 1585 01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:23,160 Speaker 1: some of these other really big shops that that really 1586 01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,720 Speaker 1: they're not. It's just they're not the way I think 1587 01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:30,400 Speaker 1: if tax ermys like I killed something, remake it. Yeah, 1588 01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:33,040 Speaker 1: there's that. That's not how they're thinking of it. You know. 1589 01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:36,080 Speaker 1: It really is a study in kind of the interaction 1590 01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:38,880 Speaker 1: of animals and the natural world. I mean, it's you know, 1591 01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:41,040 Speaker 1: whether the whether they think about that way or not, 1592 01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:42,800 Speaker 1: that's the way it seems to me. Either way, you 1593 01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:46,000 Speaker 1: have to know your ship. Um. There's a story of 1594 01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:50,439 Speaker 1: at the at the M and h Um, some one 1595 01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:54,400 Speaker 1: of the one of the bird halls was under construction 1596 01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:57,800 Speaker 1: and there's some I can't some guys like, you know, 1597 01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:01,400 Speaker 1: hanging a goose or something from the from the ceiling 1598 01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:05,280 Speaker 1: and two guys walked by and they start laughing and 1599 01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,840 Speaker 1: pointing and they go with the gooses they're flying the 1600 01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:10,400 Speaker 1: wrong way, and you know, you look around, you're like, 1601 01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:12,160 Speaker 1: what you know, what do you mean their flying don't? 1602 01:32:12,240 --> 01:32:14,639 Speaker 1: You're inside a diorama and it's like, oh, okay. Because 1603 01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:16,879 Speaker 1: of where the light is and because of the direction 1604 01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:19,800 Speaker 1: the goose is flying, they could tell what time of 1605 01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:22,160 Speaker 1: year it was and the direction that the goose was going. 1606 01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:23,719 Speaker 1: And they're like, Nope, that's the wrong way, and they'd 1607 01:32:23,720 --> 01:32:26,759 Speaker 1: redo the entire diorama. It's like all these podcast listeners 1608 01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,760 Speaker 1: that are like, hey, here's what you should have done. Damn, Yeah, 1609 01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:32,760 Speaker 1: the geese were flying the wrong way on that podcast. 1610 01:32:34,080 --> 01:32:38,320 Speaker 1: There's always somebody yep, and that's when did you know? 1611 01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:40,640 Speaker 1: I think if you jump forward a tax jeremy now 1612 01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:43,639 Speaker 1: kind of what it is from the listener what listeners 1613 01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:46,640 Speaker 1: to this podcast see it as because it's connected. It's 1614 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:50,120 Speaker 1: connected to hunting in a huge, huge way. Um, they're 1615 01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:55,040 Speaker 1: intertwined and in almost every almost every case, how did 1616 01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:57,639 Speaker 1: we get there? Because we get to a point where 1617 01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,720 Speaker 1: we're very curious and what's out there. We you know, 1618 01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:04,080 Speaker 1: tax jermy and other preservation methods have a lot of 1619 01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:06,840 Speaker 1: value in society. Then you know, we start to get 1620 01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,320 Speaker 1: into the Industrial Revolution, We start to move into a 1621 01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:11,559 Speaker 1: time where we're preserving well places and now we're putting 1622 01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,880 Speaker 1: game regulations on. So what's house taxes are only changing 1623 01:33:14,960 --> 01:33:17,680 Speaker 1: during those those times. Yeah, it's funny that there are 1624 01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:22,759 Speaker 1: two such Um they seem like opposite sides of taxes 1625 01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:25,920 Speaker 1: there mean sort of the museum side, uh and the 1626 01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:29,600 Speaker 1: hunting side. But you know it's a lot of the 1627 01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:35,800 Speaker 1: same people doing the same work. Uh. But the when 1628 01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:38,280 Speaker 1: I like, I have taxed me at home, it's nothing, 1629 01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:43,360 Speaker 1: nothing that I've shot. Um for me, it's like, well, 1630 01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,559 Speaker 1: you know, these animals they die anyway eventually, and it's 1631 01:33:48,640 --> 01:33:51,320 Speaker 1: like I have no problem with preservation. Like if we 1632 01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 1: want to start tax dmain more people to hey find 1633 01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,360 Speaker 1: by me, like, if something's gonna go, might as well 1634 01:33:56,400 --> 01:34:02,880 Speaker 1: preserve it if it's and um uh, but the the 1635 01:34:02,920 --> 01:34:06,400 Speaker 1: text ermists, who you know, depending on where you are, 1636 01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,200 Speaker 1: certainly you're gonna see a lot of similar things in 1637 01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:11,559 Speaker 1: the shop. You know, maybe you're in real whitetail country 1638 01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:16,240 Speaker 1: and that's the majority of ye what's coming in and out. 1639 01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:21,160 Speaker 1: And I think I think there certainly is some misconception 1640 01:34:21,360 --> 01:34:24,280 Speaker 1: about oh, well, you've got all these heads on the wall. 1641 01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:26,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's that the only reason you did it. 1642 01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,760 Speaker 1: And I don't. I don't see how it has to 1643 01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,680 Speaker 1: be a separate thing. I know there are a lot 1644 01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:40,200 Speaker 1: of um, maybe people who won't have an animal taxidermied 1645 01:34:40,760 --> 01:34:43,960 Speaker 1: because maybe they didn't think it's disrespectful to the animal. 1646 01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:47,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't disagree more. I mean, it's a beautiful animal, 1647 01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:48,879 Speaker 1: and if you're going to shoot it for food anyway, 1648 01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:52,760 Speaker 1: why not keep it around? And where where? Let's you 1649 01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:55,080 Speaker 1: should explore that because I mean, it's it's too obvious 1650 01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:58,880 Speaker 1: not to explore, like the idea of I feel that 1651 01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:02,839 Speaker 1: way a little bit. I wouldn't say that I'm opposed 1652 01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:07,560 Speaker 1: to shoulder mounts or opposed to that kind of taxidermy 1653 01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:09,400 Speaker 1: or even full body tax or. I'm not opposed to it. 1654 01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,720 Speaker 1: I think it looks nice in certain places. I don't 1655 01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:14,599 Speaker 1: feature in my home, But I don't know that I'm 1656 01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:16,920 Speaker 1: not doing that because just because of the folks who 1657 01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:18,760 Speaker 1: come in and what their reaction might be, and I'm 1658 01:35:18,760 --> 01:35:21,760 Speaker 1: just not saving myself the trouble and just like rather 1659 01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:23,400 Speaker 1: put a skull on the wall and not have to 1660 01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:27,559 Speaker 1: and not to have people go, oh, trophies, I maybe 1661 01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:29,160 Speaker 1: rather have that. I don't know if that's why I'm 1662 01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:30,800 Speaker 1: doing I haven't really set and thought about it, but 1663 01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:34,599 Speaker 1: I to me somehow, I just I prefer a nice 1664 01:35:34,640 --> 01:35:37,240 Speaker 1: clean skull in the European mount That's just my preference. 1665 01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:41,280 Speaker 1: But that's that's kind of embedded in the hunting culture 1666 01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:44,479 Speaker 1: for us to defend taxidermy, defend why we're doing it. 1667 01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:48,040 Speaker 1: We speak about that all the time. How did that come? 1668 01:35:48,080 --> 01:35:49,840 Speaker 1: How did that come to be? You know? I think 1669 01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:52,800 Speaker 1: that often the word yeah, the word trophies. Certainly, there's 1670 01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:56,599 Speaker 1: so many different ways to unpack trophies, the trophy hunting 1671 01:35:56,680 --> 01:36:00,719 Speaker 1: and a weaponized word. UM so I'm slay of European 1672 01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:03,639 Speaker 1: mounts to um, I like just a little skull cap, 1673 01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:07,360 Speaker 1: but I like it covered in in hair. Um. But 1674 01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:11,600 Speaker 1: and I do have a few full full tax red 1675 01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:18,920 Speaker 1: remy pieces. Um, yeah, I I don't. I don't have 1676 01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:22,200 Speaker 1: a problem with it. I've never seen obviously, I don't 1677 01:36:22,200 --> 01:36:26,519 Speaker 1: have a problem with it. Um. I think it's funny 1678 01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,880 Speaker 1: because in New York there are so many people who 1679 01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:35,599 Speaker 1: I teach an introduction to taxidermy class, and uh so 1680 01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:41,400 Speaker 1: people aren't necessarily opposed to it. I think also it 1681 01:36:41,479 --> 01:36:44,680 Speaker 1: seems weird to me that someone might come in and 1682 01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:47,400 Speaker 1: see a set of antlers and not have a problem 1683 01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:50,320 Speaker 1: with it, but then would have a problem with seeing 1684 01:36:50,320 --> 01:36:52,559 Speaker 1: a full shoulder mount you see that. That's where that's 1685 01:36:52,560 --> 01:36:55,040 Speaker 1: the question I'm asking, Like, I don't, I can't. I 1686 01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:57,960 Speaker 1: understand the trophy thing. I understand that that it could 1687 01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:03,040 Speaker 1: be somehow compared to some kind of egotistical wanting. I 1688 01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:05,240 Speaker 1: get that. I understand that's where we are, But how 1689 01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:08,479 Speaker 1: the fund did we get there? I couldn't answer that question. 1690 01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:11,120 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it is a part of 1691 01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:15,880 Speaker 1: this whole conversation where people they want to think that 1692 01:37:15,960 --> 01:37:18,920 Speaker 1: they are doing that they are on like the most 1693 01:37:19,800 --> 01:37:25,640 Speaker 1: ethical side of whatever it is. But ethics and morality 1694 01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:29,920 Speaker 1: and whatever there the minute you explain I think it's 1695 01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:33,200 Speaker 1: the same thing that the minute you explain that North 1696 01:37:33,240 --> 01:37:38,000 Speaker 1: American model of conservation and how that system works, the 1697 01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:41,880 Speaker 1: fact that you are paying into a system that ultimately 1698 01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:45,519 Speaker 1: does benefit wildlife and wild spaces at the end of 1699 01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:48,840 Speaker 1: the day, then who cares what happens to the head? Yeah, well, 1700 01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:51,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't you want us to not get rid of that? 1701 01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:54,000 Speaker 1: Wouldn't you want us to do something with it? Isn't Yeah, 1702 01:37:54,040 --> 01:37:57,679 Speaker 1: isn't it more interesting to preserve and honor in this 1703 01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:00,160 Speaker 1: way that it's like, well, yeah, this is here forever now, 1704 01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:03,400 Speaker 1: and it's always like I think it just comes down 1705 01:38:03,439 --> 01:38:05,720 Speaker 1: to a measurement and motivation. People want to try to 1706 01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,840 Speaker 1: like they want to determine what's your real motivation, and 1707 01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:12,640 Speaker 1: they feel like if the end result is a man 1708 01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:16,759 Speaker 1: many things but also includes quote unquote trophy on your wall, 1709 01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:19,599 Speaker 1: then that colors your motivation in some way. And when 1710 01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,400 Speaker 1: you're like, listen, I'll be honest. I I just moved 1711 01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:24,120 Speaker 1: into a new house. We built a house inre Montana. 1712 01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:26,920 Speaker 1: I've got way more tax germy than I could ever 1713 01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:29,559 Speaker 1: I'm a lucky man, Like I got more tax dermany 1714 01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:32,599 Speaker 1: at thirty three than I would ever hope to gain 1715 01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:35,280 Speaker 1: in my whole life. And and it's almost annoying, Like 1716 01:38:36,120 --> 01:38:38,040 Speaker 1: it's just like, I love this stuff. It does represent 1717 01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:40,720 Speaker 1: a lot of great memories, but now it's just a thing. 1718 01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:43,960 Speaker 1: It's just a thing now and and I have a 1719 01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:47,040 Speaker 1: connection to it, but it's not I wouldn't if you 1720 01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,080 Speaker 1: eliminated this from the equation, I would keep hunting and 1721 01:38:49,320 --> 01:38:51,960 Speaker 1: enjoy just as much. So it's different than the meat. 1722 01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:54,640 Speaker 1: But I see the art in it. I understand it. 1723 01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:58,200 Speaker 1: I want it there um and I appreciate it. But 1724 01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:00,479 Speaker 1: I for someone to to come to my house and 1725 01:39:00,479 --> 01:39:02,880 Speaker 1: be like, look at that double shoulder mount of two 1726 01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:07,120 Speaker 1: black tail box, you bastard, you know, instead of saying 1727 01:39:07,120 --> 01:39:10,200 Speaker 1: and I've had people do that, you know, and oh yeah, absolutely, 1728 01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:14,559 Speaker 1: Like oh you're proud of yourself. Huh, Like what what 1729 01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:17,280 Speaker 1: you know? You're proud of your deer, real proud of 1730 01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:20,360 Speaker 1: your dear. We wanted to make sure I saw them. 1731 01:39:21,280 --> 01:39:25,720 Speaker 1: Oh but you don't live here. I want to make them. 1732 01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:28,640 Speaker 1: That's my answer is I wanted to make sure that 1733 01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:32,320 Speaker 1: I saw them. And thanks for bringing it up. Let 1734 01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:34,400 Speaker 1: me tell you the story. You know, that that kind 1735 01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,360 Speaker 1: of thing, and so there's some frustration that I don't 1736 01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure we could never kind of get to an 1737 01:39:38,360 --> 01:39:40,120 Speaker 1: answer on that question. But it is a question like 1738 01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,479 Speaker 1: the trophy mentality, the way that kind of has spun 1739 01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:46,439 Speaker 1: up in our culture, as as taking taxary down a 1740 01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:50,599 Speaker 1: couple of notches. Yeah, I think if it's the if, well, 1741 01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:53,040 Speaker 1: first of all, if it opens up a conversation, then 1742 01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm happy for it. Um, if you are someone who 1743 01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:00,760 Speaker 1: can articulate, that's what I was just gonna say. If 1744 01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:03,880 Speaker 1: it opens up one you're like, yeah, man, I like 1745 01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:07,840 Speaker 1: drop times. I hear that a lot. I like a kicker. 1746 01:40:08,120 --> 01:40:12,120 Speaker 1: You know that's not gonna dissuade people, right, So yeah, 1747 01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:17,559 Speaker 1: if you can have a conversation, um, then great. Uh yeah. 1748 01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:20,599 Speaker 1: And I think this that idea has has recently come 1749 01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,840 Speaker 1: into at least an our little company here, come into 1750 01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, favor that that we're talking about this like 1751 01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:31,639 Speaker 1: it's a it's an artifact. Yeah, you know, it will 1752 01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:33,960 Speaker 1: be passed down. It's a physical artifact of something I 1753 01:40:33,960 --> 01:40:36,200 Speaker 1: went and did. And then let's say I get hit 1754 01:40:36,240 --> 01:40:38,880 Speaker 1: by a bus tomorrow and my son decides I'm gonna 1755 01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:41,679 Speaker 1: keep all I'm not gonna chunk all these uh amounts 1756 01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:45,800 Speaker 1: he'll have. He'll learn things about me that maybe he 1757 01:40:45,840 --> 01:40:48,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't have known through those who'll have to ask question, 1758 01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:51,160 Speaker 1: what where do you get that? And then it's just 1759 01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:54,519 Speaker 1: like pathway into some something I did. And so it's 1760 01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:57,400 Speaker 1: an artifact in my life. It's a little more interesting 1761 01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:02,200 Speaker 1: than just a photograph or yea, and yeah, they're beautiful. 1762 01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:04,040 Speaker 1: I mean I was just the last couple of days 1763 01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:06,120 Speaker 1: I've been here in Montana. I was at the Rocky 1764 01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:10,280 Speaker 1: Mountain Elk Foundation and the Wild Sheep Foundation, and man 1765 01:41:10,400 --> 01:41:12,559 Speaker 1: have they got some stuff. And I mean you walk 1766 01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:14,880 Speaker 1: in there here like wow, because these are just like 1767 01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:20,720 Speaker 1: the most insane specimens and uh, you know you don't 1768 01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:24,240 Speaker 1: get that close to them. Other when was the last 1769 01:41:24,280 --> 01:41:27,799 Speaker 1: time you were that? When when were you so close 1770 01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:31,320 Speaker 1: you could touch a you know, a big horn sheep. 1771 01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:34,519 Speaker 1: I always think about that. There's like this weird can 1772 01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:39,519 Speaker 1: actually Yellowstone Park in taxim me, it's like what if 1773 01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:41,920 Speaker 1: Mother nature is like listen, I'm willing to listen. I'm 1774 01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:44,640 Speaker 1: willing to tolerate some stuff. One thing I'm willing to 1775 01:41:44,640 --> 01:41:46,519 Speaker 1: tolerate is if if you guys want to like have 1776 01:41:46,560 --> 01:41:48,519 Speaker 1: an area where you just calm and play like you're 1777 01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:50,479 Speaker 1: in nature and like you can see the animals and 1778 01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:53,280 Speaker 1: you can appreciate them. And but every once in a 1779 01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:55,599 Speaker 1: while a buffalo is gonna kill one of you. Yeah, 1780 01:41:56,360 --> 01:41:59,040 Speaker 1: that's that's that's the penance you must. I would prefer 1781 01:41:59,080 --> 01:42:01,320 Speaker 1: you have a natural history am than this living one. 1782 01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:03,000 Speaker 1: But you can have and I'm gonna let you have it. 1783 01:42:03,160 --> 01:42:04,960 Speaker 1: We're just gonna take out like three of you a year. 1784 01:42:05,680 --> 01:42:08,600 Speaker 1: But that's that's kind of Yellowstone is this vestige of 1785 01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:11,640 Speaker 1: like what it Here's the natural world kind of you know, 1786 01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:14,840 Speaker 1: microwave down to something you can take in from the road, 1787 01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:18,200 Speaker 1: and and it's become like a zoo because of that, 1788 01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:22,519 Speaker 1: Like you can because people are so removed from nature 1789 01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:26,479 Speaker 1: now that they drive through Yellowstone and it becomes like 1790 01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:29,839 Speaker 1: a I don't know, it becomes like lion country, Safario. 1791 01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:32,280 Speaker 1: We were just looking at that little girl that got 1792 01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:36,160 Speaker 1: whacked by the buffalo and just and then reading the 1793 01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:39,920 Speaker 1: listening to the park official saying we stay seventy five 1794 01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,280 Speaker 1: ft away from all these ants. Like seventy five ft 1795 01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:45,639 Speaker 1: away is nothing, it's twenty five yards. I'm not good 1796 01:42:45,640 --> 01:42:49,080 Speaker 1: at math. I think that's twenty five yards something and 1797 01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:52,760 Speaker 1: it's close like a buffalo can cover twenty five yards 1798 01:42:53,760 --> 01:42:56,680 Speaker 1: and no, no problem, as evidenced by a young lady. 1799 01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:00,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's this that like that's just kind of 1800 01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,760 Speaker 1: like a representative of the natural world. People can go 1801 01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:05,040 Speaker 1: and see it, they can enterally pay the y I'm 1802 01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:09,000 Speaker 1: glad it's there. Serves a great purpose, But that's kind 1803 01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:11,240 Speaker 1: of like that that's a step down from the real experience, 1804 01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:13,479 Speaker 1: and then a step down from that is you know, 1805 01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:19,680 Speaker 1: a stationary foaming wrapped in wrapped in. It's still it 1806 01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:23,280 Speaker 1: still has that. It's crazy to see kids at the 1807 01:43:23,400 --> 01:43:28,360 Speaker 1: museum though, because as many really really awesome nature shows 1808 01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:29,800 Speaker 1: that there are now, you know, like of all the 1809 01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:33,360 Speaker 1: planet earths and things like that, and the crazy filming 1810 01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:39,200 Speaker 1: that they're capable of doing, they're awesome. But when you 1811 01:43:39,280 --> 01:43:43,200 Speaker 1: are in the museum and you are right there next 1812 01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:46,719 Speaker 1: to them, you see how big they are, and there's 1813 01:43:46,760 --> 01:43:49,479 Speaker 1: so many things that you see in those dioramas that 1814 01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:52,960 Speaker 1: you can't see on the TV because you're just not 1815 01:43:53,280 --> 01:43:56,639 Speaker 1: your body isn't that close to them. And you still 1816 01:43:56,680 --> 01:44:01,080 Speaker 1: see kids just an absolute wonder at the signs to 1817 01:44:01,160 --> 01:44:04,120 Speaker 1: the look of this animal just well just try and 1818 01:44:04,200 --> 01:44:08,599 Speaker 1: like I've experienced things like hunting moose in British Columbia 1819 01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:11,280 Speaker 1: and having a big bull moose walked ten feet behind 1820 01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:16,280 Speaker 1: me grunting and knocking over trees, and just like it's 1821 01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:18,400 Speaker 1: sometimes crossed my mind. I live on the same earth 1822 01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:24,439 Speaker 1: as this thing. Yeah, and so it's it's there's that 1823 01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:27,240 Speaker 1: amazement in that wonder in those but that's a rare thing. 1824 01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:29,639 Speaker 1: Like there's very few people that have been in that 1825 01:44:29,720 --> 01:44:34,080 Speaker 1: situation or especially regularly. So you you kind of you 1826 01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:35,760 Speaker 1: can look to tax to me as a guide to 1827 01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:37,920 Speaker 1: the natural world. This is like, this is what's out there. 1828 01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,720 Speaker 1: Look how big it is. When my son sees a 1829 01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:43,760 Speaker 1: t rex skeleton that the old the Museum of the 1830 01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:46,320 Speaker 1: Rockies here in town, he doesn't just go, well, yeah, 1831 01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:49,920 Speaker 1: another one of those, Like he now sees that the 1832 01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,959 Speaker 1: toys in his room aren't you know, that's not a dinosaur. 1833 01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:57,000 Speaker 1: That's a dinosaur. So there's a connection there that I like, Yeah, 1834 01:44:57,120 --> 01:44:59,920 Speaker 1: it's it is cool to have those life size representations. 1835 01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:04,120 Speaker 1: As much as the the shows are awesome, and I 1836 01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,320 Speaker 1: mean there's just there's so much information out there, but 1837 01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:08,360 Speaker 1: to see one right in front of you that close 1838 01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:11,640 Speaker 1: it really it does something to people still. Do you 1839 01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:13,800 Speaker 1: have like a piece of taxi ermy that you've seen 1840 01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:18,120 Speaker 1: that just completely has always stuck with the anology than something, 1841 01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:23,040 Speaker 1: whether it's whether it's a it's this timeliness in nature, 1842 01:45:23,120 --> 01:45:27,639 Speaker 1: or just like it's art. I I really am so 1843 01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:31,320 Speaker 1: lucky to be in the American Museum of Natural History 1844 01:45:31,320 --> 01:45:34,679 Speaker 1: as often as I am. That's why because right because 1845 01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:37,800 Speaker 1: I I mean I remember seeing those as a kid 1846 01:45:38,040 --> 01:45:40,280 Speaker 1: and then seeing them as an adult. You just have 1847 01:45:40,320 --> 01:45:42,360 Speaker 1: a greater appreciation for all the work that went in 1848 01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:44,439 Speaker 1: because it's not just the taxes. I mean, the tax 1849 01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:47,920 Speaker 1: for me itself is an unbelievable amount of work and 1850 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:52,120 Speaker 1: it is the best, but so much goes into those dioramas. 1851 01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:55,120 Speaker 1: The background art is also the best background art in 1852 01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:58,519 Speaker 1: the world. And that's its own crazy skill because you 1853 01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:01,840 Speaker 1: have to be dealing with the the depth, the depth 1854 01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:07,000 Speaker 1: perception of someone standing in front of a wolf and 1855 01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:11,120 Speaker 1: then okay, how do you make this this? Uh, how 1856 01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:14,960 Speaker 1: do you create that distance and the sky and how 1857 01:46:14,960 --> 01:46:17,599 Speaker 1: do you make it all look right? And that's very 1858 01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:20,960 Speaker 1: difficult to do. And all of the plants that you 1859 01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:22,840 Speaker 1: see in front of you all at four ground art. 1860 01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:25,800 Speaker 1: Those are every single one of those leaves was handmade 1861 01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:28,599 Speaker 1: by someone, like out of wax from a real I mean, 1862 01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:34,680 Speaker 1: it's crazy. The So there's one uh one downstairs the 1863 01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:38,600 Speaker 1: North American Hall. That's the most recent hall. It was 1864 01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:42,680 Speaker 1: completed in the forties forty five something like that, and um, 1865 01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:47,080 Speaker 1: it was actually renovated relatively recently in h two thousand 1866 01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:50,479 Speaker 1: and twelve because the lights, you know, the lights that 1867 01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:53,200 Speaker 1: used to be used in there, uh, they've bleached out 1868 01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:54,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the fur, so you get a lot 1869 01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:58,160 Speaker 1: of you know, Kodiak bears that are kind of blonde, 1870 01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:01,840 Speaker 1: and so the glass had to come down. You can 1871 01:47:01,840 --> 01:47:03,920 Speaker 1: only enter the dioramas from the front, so the glass 1872 01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:06,080 Speaker 1: has to come down. You have to build something to 1873 01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:09,040 Speaker 1: stand on while you're airbrushing the bears back to their 1874 01:47:09,160 --> 01:47:15,599 Speaker 1: natural brown. Um. But all of those dioramas, they're really really, 1875 01:47:15,640 --> 01:47:21,400 Speaker 1: really unbelievable. There's one diorama of these two moose fighting 1876 01:47:22,080 --> 01:47:27,680 Speaker 1: and it's incredibly um what's the word. There's just so 1877 01:47:27,800 --> 01:47:32,519 Speaker 1: much motion and action in it. And the background art 1878 01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:34,760 Speaker 1: is very cool, but it's a little bit different than 1879 01:47:34,800 --> 01:47:37,320 Speaker 1: the rest of the background art, and it looks slightly 1880 01:47:38,360 --> 01:47:44,160 Speaker 1: impressionistic and so uh, this my favorite still to this day, 1881 01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:49,400 Speaker 1: my favorite wildlife artist. This guy Carl Rung just he um, 1882 01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:55,920 Speaker 1: he was known as like the wildlife Artist, and um, 1883 01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:59,120 Speaker 1: the this donor was like, I really want Carl Runes 1884 01:47:59,200 --> 01:48:01,320 Speaker 1: to do the background art on the Moose on the 1885 01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:04,760 Speaker 1: Moose Um diorama. And they're like, well, if you can 1886 01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:08,439 Speaker 1: get him, be my guest. And so he has this 1887 01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:13,360 Speaker 1: dinner party. Says hey, Carl, look, come come, come do 1888 01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:15,559 Speaker 1: this background art. And Carl's like, I don't know if 1889 01:48:15,600 --> 01:48:18,320 Speaker 1: I you know, that's that's a different thing than what 1890 01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:21,320 Speaker 1: I normally do. That's kind of a tricky, tricky type 1891 01:48:21,320 --> 01:48:22,920 Speaker 1: of art that I'm not used to. He was working 1892 01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:27,519 Speaker 1: working on just you know, canvas, flat canvas. And the 1893 01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:29,320 Speaker 1: guy's like, you know what, I'm gonna have a dinner 1894 01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:32,280 Speaker 1: party out at my estate on Long Island. I'll invite 1895 01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:35,519 Speaker 1: the taxidermist, I'll invite the foreground artist. Just come out, chat, 1896 01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:39,400 Speaker 1: hang out. And so Carl agrees. But he's no dummy. 1897 01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:41,320 Speaker 1: He knows he's going to get like wined and dined 1898 01:48:41,360 --> 01:48:46,320 Speaker 1: and talked to doing this. So throughout the whole night, um, 1899 01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:50,200 Speaker 1: everybody's drinking and having a good time and Carl is 1900 01:48:50,320 --> 01:48:53,880 Speaker 1: pouring his wine into a planter behind him the whole night, 1901 01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:57,679 Speaker 1: so everyone's getting lit. And by the end of the night, 1902 01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:03,639 Speaker 1: he had arranged to be paid to do the one 1903 01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:10,320 Speaker 1: background more money than was paid to the A. M 1904 01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:14,559 Speaker 1: and H staff background artist gets paid in an entire year. 1905 01:49:14,840 --> 01:49:16,880 Speaker 1: It was like three thousands something. It was like more 1906 01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:20,280 Speaker 1: than his entire year salary. Goes to this one guy 1907 01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:25,040 Speaker 1: for one piece of background art and uh. So he's 1908 01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:29,840 Speaker 1: painting the background and eventually they're like, okay, well we 1909 01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:32,160 Speaker 1: gotta do some foreground stuff. And then he's like, great, 1910 01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:34,000 Speaker 1: well it's moose season, so I gotta go hunting. And 1911 01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:36,240 Speaker 1: so he leaves and they're like, great, we'll be in touch, 1912 01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:38,479 Speaker 1: you know, we'll figure out, you know, we'll finish this 1913 01:49:38,600 --> 01:49:40,840 Speaker 1: up later. And then they try to get in touch 1914 01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:43,439 Speaker 1: with him to finish it, and they never hear back 1915 01:49:43,479 --> 01:49:46,960 Speaker 1: from him ever. He's not dead, but he just never 1916 01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:51,120 Speaker 1: responded them ever again. And to this day, nobody knows 1917 01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,880 Speaker 1: if that piece of background art is finished or not. 1918 01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:56,839 Speaker 1: And so some people are like, yeah, it's finished, because 1919 01:49:57,479 --> 01:50:00,400 Speaker 1: uh that's kind of his impressionist style that, you know, 1920 01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,160 Speaker 1: we know what his art looks like. That's that's where 1921 01:50:02,200 --> 01:50:04,320 Speaker 1: it is. And some people are like, I don't know, 1922 01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:07,360 Speaker 1: I don't think it's finished, and they're like, you know, 1923 01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:09,640 Speaker 1: maybe you know his wife did die. Maybe he's just 1924 01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:12,400 Speaker 1: sad and he didn't want to go back, or or 1925 01:50:12,479 --> 01:50:16,160 Speaker 1: maybe you know, he was he was so nervous about 1926 01:50:16,240 --> 01:50:18,760 Speaker 1: his work, not standing up to the other work. That's 1927 01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:20,679 Speaker 1: the that's the art world. That's like the impression painer 1928 01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:22,400 Speaker 1: is like, yes, I did that, so you would have 1929 01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:25,519 Speaker 1: all these questions and explore my splore my purpose, and 1930 01:50:25,760 --> 01:50:30,960 Speaker 1: do this, come on, broath, color in the sky. Let's 1931 01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:33,439 Speaker 1: get let's get moving on. But it's interesting to say, 1932 01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:36,920 Speaker 1: like the impressionist art is interesting to me because that's 1933 01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:41,400 Speaker 1: that's generally the tax nm is not Impressionist. Is the 1934 01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:45,960 Speaker 1: recreation of of something, of some exact thing. That's That's 1935 01:50:46,000 --> 01:50:49,040 Speaker 1: what makes that one particular dioramas stand out to me 1936 01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:53,120 Speaker 1: so much is that the moose are unbelievable and the 1937 01:50:53,880 --> 01:50:57,360 Speaker 1: plants everything, it's an unbelievable diorama. And then the background 1938 01:50:57,520 --> 01:50:59,960 Speaker 1: art is just a little bit it doesn't look all, 1939 01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:03,479 Speaker 1: but it's just a little bit more of this impressionist style, 1940 01:51:04,080 --> 01:51:06,760 Speaker 1: which is so different from the ultra realistic backgrounds of 1941 01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:09,559 Speaker 1: all the others and so all those components kind of that. 1942 01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:12,840 Speaker 1: And I love the kodiacs. They're just so huge. I've 1943 01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:18,920 Speaker 1: seen them in person. Oh boy, oh boy. I'm not Yeah, 1944 01:51:18,960 --> 01:51:20,200 Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of bears. I've had a 1945 01:51:20,200 --> 01:51:22,400 Speaker 1: lot of bear attack victims on the podcast, and it's 1946 01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:24,080 Speaker 1: been a lot of them talking about bear attacks, and 1947 01:51:24,080 --> 01:51:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm just not can't do it. Um if you were to, 1948 01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, closing out here, you know, you've you have 1949 01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:33,600 Speaker 1: a lot of you have a lot of knowledge of 1950 01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:37,160 Speaker 1: the history of of conservation. You know where hunting is today. 1951 01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,800 Speaker 1: You live in this melting bottle places, and you know, 1952 01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:43,320 Speaker 1: there's people listen podcasts all over the country and I 1953 01:51:43,360 --> 01:51:45,920 Speaker 1: hear from all the time. And I think one thing 1954 01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:49,120 Speaker 1: I've learned from this podcast is is you can say 1955 01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:52,200 Speaker 1: one sentence and and a thousand people can take it 1956 01:51:52,240 --> 01:51:54,920 Speaker 1: a different way. You know, some people can be inspired 1957 01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:57,160 Speaker 1: by it and informed by it. Other people can be 1958 01:51:57,200 --> 01:52:00,400 Speaker 1: offended by it. Is the same kind of way. So 1959 01:52:01,840 --> 01:52:05,600 Speaker 1: I think everyone in hunting that does it does it 1960 01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:09,519 Speaker 1: for different reasons with a different perspective, but all of 1961 01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:13,479 Speaker 1: of us, all of them want to articulate it better 1962 01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:15,800 Speaker 1: I haven't run in anybody that's like, I would like 1963 01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:19,000 Speaker 1: to articulate it, like in a in a more base fashion, 1964 01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:22,200 Speaker 1: So like with all with all the things that you 1965 01:52:22,240 --> 01:52:24,080 Speaker 1: do and all the things that you know, like where 1966 01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:26,960 Speaker 1: do you lie on that? How how does somebody in 1967 01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:31,559 Speaker 1: North Carolina that collins bears and white tails, and how 1968 01:52:31,560 --> 01:52:33,880 Speaker 1: does that person communicate with somebody that comes from from 1969 01:52:33,960 --> 01:52:37,679 Speaker 1: Brooklyn that's you know, asking them these questions. Yeah, it's 1970 01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:42,200 Speaker 1: um it is tricky for sure. UM I My number 1971 01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:44,519 Speaker 1: one concern is always for the animals and always for 1972 01:52:44,560 --> 01:52:48,640 Speaker 1: the environment, and I would not be you know, I 1973 01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:51,639 Speaker 1: feel like we've touched on so many things just a 1974 01:52:51,720 --> 01:52:54,040 Speaker 1: tiny bit, like you know, tip of the iceberg of 1975 01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:58,480 Speaker 1: taxidermy and what taxidermy means to world history, and um 1976 01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:02,120 Speaker 1: hunting and this sort of new generation of would be 1977 01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:04,960 Speaker 1: hunters or how to get this? How to get this 1978 01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:09,200 Speaker 1: new generation of would be hunters? And I really think 1979 01:53:09,479 --> 01:53:14,639 Speaker 1: if you if you assume that someone is anti hunting 1980 01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:22,120 Speaker 1: because they are pro animal, okay, but that doesn't you 1981 01:53:22,160 --> 01:53:27,160 Speaker 1: can be both. And this understanding the system in America 1982 01:53:27,240 --> 01:53:33,439 Speaker 1: has been absolutely, without question, the most effective tool in 1983 01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:38,439 Speaker 1: my toolbox. Once if you're able to explain how the 1984 01:53:38,479 --> 01:53:42,160 Speaker 1: system works in America. I have yet to get a 1985 01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:45,320 Speaker 1: negative reaction from that because it's it's honestly, people don't know. 1986 01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:47,519 Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, they may still 1987 01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:53,280 Speaker 1: not um agree with hunting or the idea of killing 1988 01:53:53,280 --> 01:53:57,920 Speaker 1: an animal. They may not understand how someone is able 1989 01:53:57,960 --> 01:54:02,160 Speaker 1: to kill an animal, but if they understand the system, 1990 01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:06,680 Speaker 1: they may not be so actively antagonistic towards it. And 1991 01:54:06,680 --> 01:54:10,200 Speaker 1: then the other question is, um, do they eat meat? 1992 01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:15,000 Speaker 1: And that's a real show stopper. If you eat meat, man, 1993 01:54:15,479 --> 01:54:18,360 Speaker 1: I can tear you to shreds real quick, because your 1994 01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,080 Speaker 1: meat is going to come from one of three places. 1995 01:54:21,120 --> 01:54:25,120 Speaker 1: A factory farm and no one likes that. Um, or 1996 01:54:25,200 --> 01:54:29,320 Speaker 1: your cutesie mom and pop farm where everyone's so proud 1997 01:54:29,360 --> 01:54:31,920 Speaker 1: to buy their meat at the farmer's market, or you 1998 01:54:31,920 --> 01:54:34,640 Speaker 1: can take it right out of the field yourself. Now, 1999 01:54:35,320 --> 01:54:39,080 Speaker 1: most people agree factory farming is bad. Um. Some people 2000 01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:41,520 Speaker 1: don't have a choice because meat is expensive and they 2001 01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:44,560 Speaker 1: want to continue eating meat. And that's a whole different 2002 01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:48,480 Speaker 1: bag of worms. Um. But then if you've got people 2003 01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:55,720 Speaker 1: spending money on your on your nice little farm farm, uh, 2004 01:54:56,040 --> 01:55:02,200 Speaker 1: family farm meat great, h But when you buy that meat. 2005 01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:05,840 Speaker 1: You're still paying the farmer to make more meat. It's 2006 01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:08,960 Speaker 1: a proxy, that's it. That farmers a proxy, and that 2007 01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:13,000 Speaker 1: somebody's killing it and someone's killing it someone. That's that's 2008 01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:15,760 Speaker 1: the thing about And even with I think it's even 2009 01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:19,240 Speaker 1: a more intense concept. When you think about agriculture. You 2010 01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:24,720 Speaker 1: know that you're not killing you're not You could say, well, 2011 01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:27,240 Speaker 1: there's no suffering within this this corner of the cop 2012 01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:30,920 Speaker 1: Oh they're suffering. Yeah, oh, there is suffering. And if 2013 01:55:30,920 --> 01:55:35,760 Speaker 1: you understand ecosystems and habitat, you understand that, and it's totality. Yeah, 2014 01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:39,520 Speaker 1: and if if you're concerned about suffering, I mean, i'd say, 2015 01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:42,840 Speaker 1: I like the idea that if you shoot a deer, 2016 01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:47,560 Speaker 1: the deer doesn't even know you're there. When you've got 2017 01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,280 Speaker 1: a pig that's taken to slaughter, I mean, if it's 2018 01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:53,760 Speaker 1: at a factory farm, that's a real horrific scene and 2019 01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:58,080 Speaker 1: that animal is stressed out and freaked out. And then 2020 01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:00,440 Speaker 1: if you're even on a small farm, you know, those 2021 01:56:00,480 --> 01:56:02,800 Speaker 1: those small farms, they're not allowed to do their own slaughtering. 2022 01:56:02,800 --> 01:56:05,200 Speaker 1: They still have to outsource that, and that's still a 2023 01:56:05,200 --> 01:56:08,800 Speaker 1: stressful thing for the animal. You know. Um, I like 2024 01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:11,480 Speaker 1: that the animal doesn't know what hit them. And when 2025 01:56:11,560 --> 01:56:14,880 Speaker 1: you pay money to bring home venison from the field, 2026 01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:18,200 Speaker 1: you are again paying into that system that keeps the 2027 01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:21,320 Speaker 1: trees there and keeps the forests there. Yeah. I mean 2028 01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:24,720 Speaker 1: that My whole life has just become this talking about 2029 01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:29,120 Speaker 1: and doing and analyzing and feeling some kind of weird 2030 01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, backwards philosopher and thinking about it. But I 2031 01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:36,520 Speaker 1: mean it. The biggest confounding thing for me is that 2032 01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:40,920 Speaker 1: it all makes sense so clearly when you look at it. 2033 01:56:41,000 --> 01:56:42,360 Speaker 1: If it didn't make sense to me, I'd walk away. 2034 01:56:42,360 --> 01:56:44,160 Speaker 1: I don't give a ship about if it didn't make 2035 01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:46,720 Speaker 1: sense but it didn't do something for my life, if 2036 01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:49,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't a good thing for society, I gotta walk 2037 01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:52,320 Speaker 1: away from it and be just fine, you know. But 2038 01:56:52,480 --> 01:56:55,960 Speaker 1: I look at it like, Wow, this is a pretty 2039 01:56:55,960 --> 01:56:59,200 Speaker 1: special thing that we've been doing for you know, millions 2040 01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:02,520 Speaker 1: of years um or over a million years, and and 2041 01:57:03,200 --> 01:57:05,320 Speaker 1: the fact that we're moving away from it, and it's 2042 01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:10,000 Speaker 1: it's become such a weird concept for some people, is 2043 01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:14,080 Speaker 1: is troubling. I I see, I can looking at a 2044 01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:16,240 Speaker 1: big picture. I can see that. But that'll be your 2045 01:57:16,280 --> 01:57:19,560 Speaker 1: most difficult way to to bring it up to new 2046 01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:21,280 Speaker 1: people because they don't care how long it's been going on. 2047 01:57:21,400 --> 01:57:23,760 Speaker 1: Oh that's how I always started. Like, you can never 2048 01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,000 Speaker 1: argue any any time you're trying if it's way, you 2049 01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:27,120 Speaker 1: can't be like, you know, we used to do it 2050 01:57:27,160 --> 01:57:29,800 Speaker 1: this way. Well, boy, we used to do it a 2051 01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:31,880 Speaker 1: lot of and we see a lot of things. There's 2052 01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:34,280 Speaker 1: a few words I like said. Spending my time in Berkeley, 2053 01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:37,440 Speaker 1: I heard a lot about well what about slavery. It's 2054 01:57:37,480 --> 01:57:40,520 Speaker 1: like the easiest thing, the easiest thing to try it out. Yeah, 2055 01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:43,800 Speaker 1: but it's interesting. But so you can is there any 2056 01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:45,760 Speaker 1: way people can they have to come see you? Or 2057 01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:47,560 Speaker 1: can they learn about the history at tax Germany? Or 2058 01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:49,360 Speaker 1: they had to come to New York and take your class. 2059 01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:52,360 Speaker 1: She was like, everybody come that listens to this, get 2060 01:57:52,360 --> 01:57:55,600 Speaker 1: on the plane and go to Brooklyn would be lazy. 2061 01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:59,320 Speaker 1: I'll plug my website. Yeah, it's plug it up Immortal Animals, 2062 01:57:59,640 --> 01:58:03,000 Speaker 1: dot com um and uh so I travel for these lectures. 2063 01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:06,160 Speaker 1: So I travel for the lectures, and uh I travel 2064 01:58:06,200 --> 01:58:10,760 Speaker 1: for the tax dermy classes. So I teach introductory taxidermy 2065 01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:13,360 Speaker 1: to people who want to learn. And it's just we 2066 01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:18,840 Speaker 1: used expired frozen feeder mouse mice. So if you've got like, uh, 2067 01:58:19,200 --> 01:58:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, like people who have pet snakes and lizards, 2068 01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:23,400 Speaker 1: they feed them these little frozen mouse sickles. So we 2069 01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:26,280 Speaker 1: just use those, and um, I have I have at 2070 01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,879 Speaker 1: this point, I have a strict no b y O roadkill. 2071 01:58:29,880 --> 01:58:33,240 Speaker 1: That was my next question. How does that work? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2072 01:58:33,440 --> 01:58:36,560 Speaker 1: so I I provide everything. But yeah, so I travel 2073 01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:39,640 Speaker 1: for lectures and for classes. Um, if you want a 2074 01:58:39,680 --> 01:58:42,200 Speaker 1: tour of the Natural History Museum, then yeah, you gotta 2075 01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:45,520 Speaker 1: come to New York. But man, if you are interested 2076 01:58:45,560 --> 01:58:49,480 Speaker 1: in history or animals or dioramas or whatever, then you 2077 01:58:49,600 --> 01:58:51,040 Speaker 1: got you gotta come to New York at some point 2078 01:58:51,040 --> 01:58:54,840 Speaker 1: because those those dioramas are just unbelievable. Well, i'll tell 2079 01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:56,360 Speaker 1: you what. You know, it's a good podcast. When it's 2080 01:58:56,400 --> 01:58:58,200 Speaker 1: over and it's been a long time even talking and 2081 01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,640 Speaker 1: you feel like we didn't cover much, that's how you 2082 01:59:00,680 --> 01:59:02,800 Speaker 1: know it's a good conversation. So thank you, Brand, I 2083 01:59:02,840 --> 01:59:14,360 Speaker 1: appreciate you. Kemping, I guess that's it. That's all the books. 2084 01:59:15,200 --> 01:59:20,200 Speaker 1: Thanks to Brand McDuff, thanks to Miles Nulty, and thanks 2085 01:59:20,200 --> 01:59:24,760 Speaker 1: to Sam Longern No thanks to William Perry, Penley, and 2086 01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:26,440 Speaker 1: so just to return to that for a minute before 2087 01:59:26,480 --> 01:59:30,320 Speaker 1: we go, we we made some some very you know, 2088 01:59:30,480 --> 01:59:35,120 Speaker 1: serious remarks um in fact filed discussion on it, and 2089 01:59:35,120 --> 01:59:36,720 Speaker 1: then made a little fun of the guy at the end. 2090 01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:41,920 Speaker 1: But this is a very serious topic and something that 2091 01:59:41,960 --> 01:59:45,960 Speaker 1: we should all remain both pragmatic about but passionate about. 2092 01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:48,680 Speaker 1: I feel very strongly about this. The other gentleman in 2093 01:59:48,680 --> 01:59:50,880 Speaker 1: the room with me when we recorded the opening segment 2094 01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:54,800 Speaker 1: felt the same. But again, I think the point of 2095 01:59:54,800 --> 01:59:59,080 Speaker 1: this podcast is to examine people's perspectives and worldviews and 2096 01:59:59,120 --> 02:00:02,920 Speaker 1: then then then move to help them inform what you think, 2097 02:00:03,880 --> 02:00:07,320 Speaker 1: but also inform how you can go and do more research, 2098 02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:11,880 Speaker 1: you know, to better construct your opinions in your worldviews. 2099 02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:16,040 Speaker 1: So I believe strongly in public lands. The gentleman, most 2100 02:00:16,040 --> 02:00:18,320 Speaker 1: of the gentlemen of all of them and ladies that 2101 02:00:18,400 --> 02:00:21,240 Speaker 1: work here at the media to believe in public lands. 2102 02:00:21,280 --> 02:00:24,440 Speaker 1: But that does not mean you should blindly believe what 2103 02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:31,280 Speaker 1: we believe. You should go get the facts, understand the situation, 2104 02:00:31,760 --> 02:00:35,480 Speaker 1: try to separate the bullshit pandering that goes on in 2105 02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:38,560 Speaker 1: politics from the reality of the situation, which can be 2106 02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:41,480 Speaker 1: extremely difficult in this day and age and make the 2107 02:00:41,520 --> 02:00:45,000 Speaker 1: best decision that you can on these these real critical topics. 2108 02:00:45,640 --> 02:00:50,000 Speaker 1: And William Perry Penley, the BLM, the Secretary of the Interior, 2109 02:00:50,040 --> 02:00:53,520 Speaker 1: the Department of the Interior, all of these things affect 2110 02:00:53,640 --> 02:00:57,200 Speaker 1: us directly. Many of the things in the political sphere 2111 02:00:57,280 --> 02:01:01,120 Speaker 1: don't defect affect meat directly in my daily life. If 2112 02:01:01,160 --> 02:01:03,640 Speaker 1: I were to lose the opportunity to hunt on BLM lands, 2113 02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,640 Speaker 1: it would affect me, and I think it would affect 2114 02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:08,960 Speaker 1: all hunters. In fact, I know it would affect all hunters. 2115 02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:13,360 Speaker 1: And that's what this show is about. So please do 2116 02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:16,839 Speaker 1: your research, take action if you feel that it's warranted, 2117 02:01:18,200 --> 02:01:20,360 Speaker 1: but just be educated on these issues because they are 2118 02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:23,200 Speaker 1: very important. And this land can go away, the access 2119 02:01:23,200 --> 02:01:27,240 Speaker 1: to this land can go away, and if if folks 2120 02:01:27,280 --> 02:01:35,240 Speaker 1: like William Perry Penley have their way, we're gonna lose it. 2121 02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:40,480 Speaker 1: We'll lose access to it. So that's it. That's all 2122 02:01:40,520 --> 02:01:43,200 Speaker 1: that I can say anymore. I'm not gonna do any 2123 02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:45,720 Speaker 1: little uh advertising or anything like that. I will say 2124 02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:49,360 Speaker 1: thank you for listening to this podcast episodes. It's not 2125 02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:51,080 Speaker 1: a huge benchmark, but each one of these is a 2126 02:01:51,120 --> 02:01:54,400 Speaker 1: benchmark to me. I'm glad that you all listen. Please 2127 02:01:54,480 --> 02:01:57,160 Speaker 1: right in to tach C at the media dot Com 2128 02:01:57,240 --> 02:02:00,240 Speaker 1: again th h C at the media dot Com. Tell 2129 02:02:00,320 --> 02:02:02,720 Speaker 1: us what you think, tell us what we can do better. 2130 02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:06,360 Speaker 1: Send us your audio clips. Will be running those continually 2131 02:02:07,040 --> 02:02:10,160 Speaker 1: during the fall. And good luck out there. If you're 2132 02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:11,960 Speaker 1: headed out for Antelope or if you're headed out for 2133 02:02:12,000 --> 02:02:15,800 Speaker 1: early season white tail, good luck, enjoy the honey season. 2134 02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:20,520 Speaker 1: It is upon us. See it long because I can't 2135 02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:28,839 Speaker 1: go a week without doing run, oh without run, drinking 2136 02:02:28,920 --> 02:02:50,920 Speaker 1: out and rue wrong, drinking in, don't sit and at 2137 02:02:50,960 --> 02:02:54,440 Speaker 1: the bostle would start the row route being there again. 2138 02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:57,280 Speaker 1: Hold on out, barrosshoes down my