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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Bombshelle in the case

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Speaker 1: of a little teen girl on a carnival cruise, her body,

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Speaker 1: we now learn, is found stuffed up under a cabin

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Speaker 1: bed with life vests stuffed on top of her to

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Speaker 1: hide her dead body, and as we go to air

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Speaker 1: a shock, suspect is eyed. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: Eighteen year old Anna Kappner, a brilliant straight A student

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Speaker 2: from Titusville, Florida, embarks on what is meant to be

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Speaker 2: a celebratory cruise, marking the end of her high school journey.

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Speaker 2: This trip is supposed to be a joyful escape, unaware

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Speaker 2: of what is to come.

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Speaker 1: Stunning developments in the case of little Anna, the teen

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Speaker 1: girl cheerleader out of Titusvile, Florida, who goes on a

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Speaker 1: carnival cruise ship with her family. I'm curious there have

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Speaker 1: been different times of death reported from not only the ship,

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Speaker 1: but then what we learn from the medical examiner is

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Speaker 1: very different. Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight

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Speaker 1: out to Robert Crispin, private investigator, former fed not only

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Speaker 1: with Homeland Security, Department of justice, but also with the dea.

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Speaker 1: Robert Crispin is joining us. All location at Port of

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Speaker 1: Miami where the cruise ships depart. Tell me how difficult

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be, Robert Crispin to put this case. It's

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Speaker 1: like Humpty Dumpty. All the king's horses and all the

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Speaker 1: king's men could never put Humpty together again. Why is

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Speaker 1: it so difficult to put a case together when A

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Speaker 1: you had the wrong time of death, and B every

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Speaker 1: passenger on that floating crime scene is he's gone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy, forget about that. Soon as he came back

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Speaker 3: here to the Port of Miami, every single one of

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Speaker 3: those passengers got off and they went to off corners

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Speaker 3: of the world, out of the country, all around the US.

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Speaker 3: The problem I have with all of this is is

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Speaker 3: purported that all these family members stayed in the same room.

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Speaker 3: How is it if you're with your father that you

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Speaker 3: go to sleep as a dad and you don't see

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Speaker 3: your daughter and she's not in the room. That just

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Speaker 3: doesn't sit right with me as an investigator starting to

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Speaker 3: look into this. And then the next morning it's nine o'clock,

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Speaker 3: everyone's eating buffet, and all of a sudden, where's Anna seriously.

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Speaker 3: So as an investigator, the FBI is going to have

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Speaker 3: an issue of trying to figure out who's with Anna,

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Speaker 3: who's the last person with her, who went to her

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Speaker 3: cabin with her, because it was already reported that she

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Speaker 3: went back earlier in the night because she didn't feel good.

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Speaker 1: That's a problem.

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Speaker 3: An FBI has a big task on her hands unless

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Speaker 3: they get a confession of somebody who comes forward, because

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Speaker 3: they've got to start this from the time they put

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Speaker 3: their first step on that ramp to get up into

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Speaker 3: that ship, to get to that crime scene. Because, like

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Speaker 3: we had this discussion before, it's a floating crime scene.

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Speaker 3: If it is a homicide, which this is looking like

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Speaker 3: it probably is. Remember all the evidence that could have

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Speaker 3: been using this Nancy could have been thrown over on

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Speaker 3: the moving crime scene in three.

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Speaker 4: To five thousand feet of water.

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Speaker 3: You're never finding it. You're never finding it.

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Speaker 1: Robert Crispin, let me see Crispin there at the Port

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Speaker 1: of Miami. Crispin, you said it likely is I murder.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, so you think she died of natural causes

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Speaker 1: at age eighteen, but she went under the committed suicide

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Speaker 1: and then cover herself up with a blanket. Of course

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Speaker 1: this is not.

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Speaker 3: She was found under the bed, wrapped in the black,

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Speaker 3: covered by those life jackets.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Spencer Erenfeld joining us known as the

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Speaker 1: cruise ship lawyer. He is representing the family of another

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Speaker 1: woman who dies on a cruise ship a mom. Spencer,

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Speaker 1: let's follow up on what Robert Crispin just reported that

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Speaker 1: this whole family was staying in the same room. Whether

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Speaker 1: the entire extended family was in the same room, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure about that, but I do know this little

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Speaker 1: girl did not have a room to herself. So do

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Speaker 1: you know how small these rooms are? Even the big

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Speaker 1: rooms on a cruise ship are incredibly small.

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Speaker 4: They're super tiny, Nancy. They're kind of like a motel

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Speaker 4: six size room for the most part. If it's a

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Speaker 4: windowless balcony root without a balcony, they're as dark as

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Speaker 4: a coffin in there. And I've had a lot of

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Speaker 4: cases where people have gotten into those rooms and other

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Speaker 4: passengers are not aware of it, or people have left

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Speaker 4: the room and other passengers don't realize it. They're very dark,

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Speaker 4: soundproof rooms. It's not unusual, especially when you're sharing a

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Speaker 4: room with a lot of people, to lose track of.

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Speaker 1: Somebody, Spencer Arnfeld, not to parse words, but you've heard

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Speaker 1: of light switches, right, Are you trying to tell me

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Speaker 1: that they went into their room in the complete dark

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Speaker 1: of night, put on their PJS and the shroud of darkness,

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Speaker 1: couldn't see a thing, managed to change clothes, brush their teeth,

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Speaker 1: get ready for bed, but yet they didn't look over

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Speaker 1: at her bunk. And then in the morning they got

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Speaker 1: ready and complete and total darkness. That did not happen.

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Speaker 4: It sounds incredible, Nancy, but I've had cases where people

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Speaker 4: have been found in other people's beds and that people

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Speaker 4: think people are in the room and they're not in

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Speaker 4: their room. Yeah. I think it's actually possible that these

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Speaker 4: dark coffin white cabins would prevent family men, especially when

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Speaker 4: you're sharing a room with so many people, to keep

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Speaker 4: track of everybody.

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Speaker 1: You know, what, Spencer, do you have children? Are you

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Speaker 1: lucky enough to have time? I do?

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Speaker 4: I do?

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you take your child on a cruise and

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Speaker 1: when you go off to the buffet, you don't take

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Speaker 1: your child with you, or at least look at your child.

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Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying, because it's too dark in

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Speaker 1: the room.

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Speaker 4: I'm saying I've seen this in many cases, Nancy. People

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Speaker 4: have different time schedules and they don't wait around for

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Speaker 4: each other. They may have thought she was out, they

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Speaker 4: may have thought she had already left the room. I'm

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Speaker 4: not defending them, but I'm sure.

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Speaker 1: You're not answering my question. Would you leave your cabin

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Speaker 1: without securing your child on a cruise ship with thousands

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Speaker 1: of people that could be anything. They could have credical histories,

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Speaker 1: they could be on drugs, they could be drunk. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna leave your child alone in the room. No, Why

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Speaker 1: are you saying this.

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Speaker 4: You're preaching to the choir. I'm a hyper sensitive and

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Speaker 4: vigilant because I know the dangers that work on these

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Speaker 4: cruise ships. I wouldn't leave my adult wife alone on

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Speaker 4: a cruise ship, much less my children. But I'm telling

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Speaker 4: you my experience, this happens all the time. I would

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Speaker 4: never do it because I'm.

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Speaker 1: Not buying it. I don't know what experience you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not buying that. The family doesn't say she's

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Speaker 1: not in her bed at night. They don't say she's

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Speaker 1: not in her bed the next morning when they all

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Speaker 1: go off to breakfast, and then a maid has to

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Speaker 1: find her body with life vests stuff down there to

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Speaker 1: hide her. I am not buying it. This is what

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Speaker 1: we think happened. Listen.

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Speaker 5: The kept her family frantically searching for Anna. Last scene

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Speaker 5: feeling unwell at dinner the night before, when a housekeeper

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Speaker 5: makes a horrifying discovery. The maid starts to gather linens

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Speaker 5: for laundry, but notices the sheet missing off the bed.

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Speaker 5: Taking the bed, she notices a pile of life jackets

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Speaker 5: stuffed underneath. Removing the life jackets, she discovers the missing

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Speaker 5: sheet wrapped around Anna's body.

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Speaker 1: To you, Robert Crispin, former homicide detective in Miami, former

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice. It goes on and on now Crispininvestigations

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Robert. So often we see the killer wrap

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Speaker 1: the body up or somehow cover especially the face of

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Speaker 1: the victim. And in this case, the little girl was

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Speaker 1: wrapped in sheets, possibly a blanket. Why have you seen

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Speaker 1: that before?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So it's common knowledge that a lot of perpetrators who

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Speaker 3: commit a homicide. What's the first thing he wants to

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Speaker 3: do right away? Conceal the body and tell such time

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Speaker 3: that he can either dispose of the body in a

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Speaker 3: certain location or transport the body to a different location,

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Speaker 3: i e. We don't know that she could have been

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Speaker 3: thrown off of that ship and something interrupted that homicide.

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Speaker 1: I want to go to doctor Thomas con joining us,

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Speaker 1: the chief Medical Examiner District toom Medical Examiner's office in

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Speaker 1: the state of Florida. Never a lack of business, Dodger Coin,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. We know the last

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Speaker 1: time she was spot on surveillance cameras, and that's going

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Speaker 1: to be when she was having dinner, where she left

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Speaker 1: dinner said she fell ill. According to the family. I've

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Speaker 1: got to find out was that one family member was

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Speaker 1: that multiple members that heard her say that she should

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Speaker 1: have been seen on surveillance going into that room starting there.

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Speaker 1: It was a full twenty four hours before her body

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Speaker 1: was found. It was the next day. How much evidence

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Speaker 1: have we lost because of the delay of her being

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Speaker 1: on a cruise ship in the middle of the Caribbean.

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Speaker 4: Well, hopefully not too much.

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Speaker 6: I mean, the process of decomposition wouldn't have progressed too

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Speaker 6: much in that timeframe where we would still be able

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Speaker 6: to determine the cause of death. We would still have

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Speaker 6: enough ability to grab toxicology or fluids for toxicology testing,

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Speaker 6: so all the evidence should still be present on the

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Speaker 6: body and within the body. Same thing with trying to

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Speaker 6: figure out her actual time of death, right because you know,

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Speaker 6: I'm assuming that eleven seventeen times when her death was pronounced.

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Speaker 6: We don't know exactly when during that night she died,

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Speaker 6: but you know her degree of rigor mortis, meaning how

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Speaker 6: stiffer a body still is, her degree of libra mortis

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Speaker 6: meaning the blood settling in the body, whether it was

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Speaker 6: fixed in place, whether she had a full stomach full

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Speaker 6: of food that never left her stomach.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, let me ask a kind of question right there,

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Speaker 1: Dodger Coin, I want to clear up something you said

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Speaker 1: about rigor. Rigor Morris, of course, is when the body stiffens.

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Speaker 1: But isn't it true after a period of hours, First

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Speaker 1: of all, the person is killed. Then after a period

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Speaker 1: of time you go into rigor. Then after several hours,

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Speaker 1: you come out of rigor and your body is again limp.

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Speaker 1: What do you do if the body has already come

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Speaker 1: out of rigor, Because when you're in rigor, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot easier to tell. Oh, this took two three hours

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Speaker 1: for rigor to set in. But once you're out of rigor,

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Speaker 1: how do you determine the time of death based on

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Speaker 1: the body alone? Forget about surveillance cameras, forget about what

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Speaker 1: the family says, What about the body itself? What can

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Speaker 1: I determine on time of death?

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Speaker 6: Well, we can't actually give you an exact time, but

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Speaker 6: we can give you a range. And so we know

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Speaker 6: that if a person, a normal person under normal circumstances,

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Speaker 6: we'd expect to come out of rigor between eight to

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Speaker 6: twelve hours. And so if a person would suggest that

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Speaker 6: at least maybe perhaps eight to twelve hours has passed

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Speaker 6: from their time of death. Now there are persons who

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Speaker 6: go into rigor almost immediately after death, ross that usually

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Speaker 6: takes we stay about an hour to two hours for

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Speaker 6: you to start seeing full rigor throughout the body from

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Speaker 6: head to toes. But generally a range of about eight

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Speaker 6: to twelve hours we expect the body to be out

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Speaker 6: of rigor. So if you see a body is completely

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Speaker 6: out of rigor, it would suggest that that amount of

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Speaker 6: time has passed since they died. And that's really the

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Speaker 6: only the range we can give you. I mentioned before

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Speaker 6: about food in her stomach. You know if she had

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Speaker 6: left dinner having eaten and she still had food in

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Speaker 6: her stomach, that would suggest that you know, a small

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Speaker 6: amount of time elapsed from when she left the dinner

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Speaker 6: table to when she was killed. Because you know you

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Speaker 6: figure gastric emptying time the amount of time for our

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Speaker 6: food to leave our stomach. You know there's a range

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Speaker 6: of times, but you know we'd expect not longer than

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Speaker 6: you know, an hour to two hours that to occur.

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Speaker 6: So you have some evidence present on the body and

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Speaker 6: within the body that may allow you to give a

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Speaker 6: range of time from when she.

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Speaker 1: Was killed straight out to board certify forensic psychologists over

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Speaker 1: eighteen years experience Alison Paganelli joining us. Alison, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. I've heard Spencer Aaronfel go on

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Speaker 1: and on and on about how dark it is inside

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Speaker 1: a cruise ship cabin. You do know they have lights.

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Speaker 1: You just hit the switch and turn on the light.

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Speaker 1: I find it very difficult to believe the family would

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Speaker 1: come back in that night thinking the daughter had fell ill,

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Speaker 1: and come to her cabin and go to sleep without

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Speaker 1: seeing her, and then get up the next morning and

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Speaker 1: everybody gets ready and Lisa her breakfast and doesn't notice

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Speaker 1: she's not there. None of that makes any sense, Allison.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're parents who would leave their child behind.

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Speaker 7: As far as the lights, which knows that if she

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Speaker 7: went to the room because she didn't feel well, maybe

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Speaker 7: the family used the flashlight app on their phone or

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Speaker 7: something to not disturb her by turning on all the lights.

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Speaker 1: And as far as.

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Speaker 7: The morning not spotting her in there, you know, there's

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Speaker 7: lots of possibilities. I would agree with the commentator who

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Speaker 7: said earlier that they may have thought, you know, she's eighteen,

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Speaker 7: she's up at the fitness center, she's maybe taken a

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Speaker 7: walk something like that, will just meet her at breakfast,

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Speaker 7: or who knows, maybe they had decided ahead of time

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Speaker 7: like y'all can do, or she can do what she

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Speaker 7: would like to do. She's eighteen, but everybody meets together

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Speaker 7: for meals.

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Speaker 1: Good point, Allison. So they all go to breakfast and

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Speaker 1: she's not there. She's not meeting for meals in your

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Speaker 1: hypothetical fairy tale story right that you're putting out there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what it is with Alison Pagan, Alliot,

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Speaker 1: Spencer Arnfield. Do you know where your children are tonight?

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Speaker 1: Spencer do you know where they are right now?

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Speaker 4: I have a general sense of where my kids are.

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Speaker 4: There are adults, and I think that perhaps on a cruise,

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Speaker 4: people lower their guard and they thought that this young

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Speaker 4: lady was an adult, perhaps and they didn't need to

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Speaker 4: be constantly supervising her every move. That is not uncommon

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Speaker 4: in my experience representing people of this age.

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Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Story's investigative reporter. So the

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Speaker 1: maid goes in and discovers the body stuffed under the bed.

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Speaker 1: Could you describe how the maid found the body and

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Speaker 1: what condition.

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Speaker 8: That's right, Nancy, the maid coming to clean the room,

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Speaker 8: coming to remake the bed, is the one who notices

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Speaker 8: this pile of life jackets in the sheet stuffed under

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Speaker 8: the bed, and that's when she discovers Anna's body. Now

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Speaker 8: that's where things get unclear. So we know we have

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Speaker 8: this time of death eleven seventeen am on November seventh.

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Speaker 8: Witnesses say that the maid came in around eleven. That's

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Speaker 8: when security showed up at this cabin and guarded it

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Speaker 8: for the rest of the crews. So that's where there's

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Speaker 8: this big discrepancy.

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Speaker 9: Anna's father, stepmother, and other family members join her for

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Speaker 9: a six day carnival cruise to the Western Caribbean. After

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Speaker 9: their last day at Porting Cosmeo, Mexico, Anna heads back

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Speaker 9: to her room early, telling family members she isn't feeling

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Speaker 9: well during dinner. The next morning, Anna doesn't join her

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Speaker 9: family for breakfast and isn't answering her door. Her family

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Speaker 9: begins a frantic search for the teen on the fourteen

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Speaker 9: deck four thousand passenger ship.

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Speaker 1: At first, I was like, no, this can't be real.

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Speaker 8: I broke down, like I looked through all of our

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Speaker 8: pictures immediately, like I missed heress on, much like I

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Speaker 8: really cried.

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Speaker 1: From Fox thirty five. Now she's dead on a cruise ship.

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Speaker 1: It's a floating crime scene.

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Speaker 4: Either not have all the CCTD or failed to preserve it.

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Speaker 4: The security officers on cruise ships are really nothing more

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Speaker 4: than glorified mall cops.

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Speaker 1: Sydney Sumner, what is happening, Nancy?

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Speaker 8: We've learned through the documents related to this custody disagreement

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Speaker 8: that the SAIDs are eyeing Anna's stepbrother as a suspect

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Speaker 8: in her death. So Anna's dad, Christopher Kepner, just married

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Speaker 8: Seantel Hudson, who is divorced from Thomas Hudson. So Thomas

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Speaker 8: and Chantelle. Chantelle share three children, two of which are

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Speaker 8: still minors. So the older of those two minor children,

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Speaker 8: Anna's stepbrother, is alleged to have taken part in her death.

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Speaker 8: Now the father is trying to get custody of their

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Speaker 8: nine year old daughter and is also trying to figure

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Speaker 8: out what's going on with this son.

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Speaker 1: When you say they allegedly took part in her death,

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Speaker 1: who this.

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Speaker 8: Is Anna's sixteen year old stepbrother, Seantel Hudson's son, Yes.

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Speaker 1: Tayspaser Aaronfield, a veteran tild lawyer joining us note as

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Speaker 1: the cruise ship lawyer. I know that you have read

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Speaker 1: these documents all this. We are as a result of

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Speaker 1: an emergency motion for a continuance for a hearing. Explain

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Speaker 1: what happened, Spencer.

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Speaker 4: My understanding of what's happening is that in the divorce proceeding,

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Speaker 4: certain questions are being asked and one of the parties

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Speaker 4: is saying, look, we just lost her, and I'm in

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Speaker 4: no position to go under oath and have to testify

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Speaker 4: right now. Give me some time, give me a continuance,

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Speaker 4: allow me to grieve, and then I can appear in

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Speaker 4: court to continue my divorce. But this is something that

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Speaker 4: started long before this cruise.

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Speaker 1: Well in the divorce proceeding. Yes, and this is a divorce,

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, Sydney Center. I've studied the

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Speaker 1: filings as have you. This is a divorce between the stepmother,

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Speaker 1: Chantelle Hudson, and her former husband, Thomas Hudson. So it

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Speaker 1: seems as if Chantelle was going to be deposed or

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Speaker 1: asked questions under oath, and she files this emergency motion

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Speaker 1: for a continuous to delay those questions and cites as

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Speaker 1: a reason in paragraph two quote an extremely sensitive severe

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Speaker 1: circumstance has arisen wherein respondence mother will not be able

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Speaker 1: to testify. Currently, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI

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Speaker 1: arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old and

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Speaker 1: A Keptner MS Keptner. The deceased is the daughter of

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Speaker 1: respondence paramore, and that would be the bio dad Chris

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Speaker 1: Kepner and respondent and the minor children were all on

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Speaker 1: the cruise ship together. So bottom line, they're saying they

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Speaker 1: can't testify or it would put their child, which I

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Speaker 1: assume to be the sixteen year old brother in jeopardy.

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Speaker 8: The court documents are between Sean Tell Hudson and her

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Speaker 8: ex husband Thomas Hudson. They share three children together. The

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Speaker 8: oldest is eighteen years old, not a minor anymore, but

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Speaker 8: the sixteen year old and their nine year old daughter

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Speaker 8: are a part of the custody agreement and it appears

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Speaker 8: the filing is related to Chantelle not holding up her

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Speaker 8: end of their co parenting arrangement. So she is asking

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Speaker 8: for more time to respond to these filings because anything

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Speaker 8: she may say in court could harm that sixteen year

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Speaker 8: old in this federal criminal proceeding against them.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, how much direct them? This

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Speaker 1: attention to paragraph three of this emergency motion for continuance,

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Speaker 1: if we could put that up for the viewers. The

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Speaker 1: respondent has been advised through discussions with FBI investigators and

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Speaker 1: her lawyers, Chantelle Hudson, the stepmother, a criminal case may

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Speaker 1: be initiated against one of the minor children of this

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Speaker 1: instant action.

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Speaker 9: Senior year at Temple Christians, Ana paints her parking spot

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Speaker 9: to match your favorite movie Clueless and is ecstatic to

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Speaker 9: be back on the field, cheering for the Lions. Licensed

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Speaker 9: to boat and scoopas she enjoys making tiktoks with her

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Speaker 9: friends and brother. Anna plans on joining the military. In fact,

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Speaker 9: she's waiting on the results of her as VAB testing

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Speaker 9: to determine which jobs will suit her best.

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Speaker 2: And his grandparents gift her a spring cruise has an

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Speaker 2: eighteenth birthday gift. Anna enjoys the experience so much she

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Speaker 2: books a six day trip with stops in Oto Rios, Jamaica,

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Speaker 2: the Grand Caymans, and Cosimel, Mexico.

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Speaker 1: How did the little girl die?

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Speaker 4: Who's she hanging out with on the ship?

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Speaker 1: What time did she die? Who was with her?

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Speaker 10: We're trying to piece together exactly what happened. Lindsay Allison,

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Speaker 10: a passenger staying just down the hall from Anna's room,

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Speaker 10: remembers crew responding to a medical call around eleven am

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Speaker 10: Friday morning.

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Speaker 1: Security never left.

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Speaker 4: They guarded the room very well.

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Speaker 10: She doesn't know what happened. Allison can imagine the terror

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Speaker 10: that ensues when your vacation turns into a floating prison.

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Speaker 4: You're out in the middle of the ocean.

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Speaker 9: You can't go anywhere, you can't get on land, you

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Speaker 9: can't flee.

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Speaker 1: From our friends. At Fox thirteen, seemingly we're learning more

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Speaker 1: from neighbors on the cruise ship than we are from

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Speaker 1: the family. You know, doctor Thomas Coyne. A lot is

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Speaker 1: going to depend on the condition of the body and

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Speaker 1: other words, what will the medical examiner be looking at

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Speaker 1: on an and around her body to determine her true

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Speaker 1: cause of death?

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Speaker 6: Sure? Well, I'm assuming the body was brought in still

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Speaker 6: wrapped in that blanket as evidence, and so should have

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Speaker 6: came into the medical examiner's office and a locked body

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Speaker 6: bag to maintain chan and custody for that evidence. And

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Speaker 6: they would have started literally from working outside inwards. So

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Speaker 6: they would have obtained at that time any swabs that

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Speaker 6: they could have for a bodily fluid, whether it be

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Speaker 6: saliva or other bodily fluids.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 6: They would have h removed alliver clothing if present, but

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Speaker 6: if not, they would have examined her from head to

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Speaker 6: toe look for injury.

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Speaker 4: Uh, they would do.

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Speaker 1: This is not t at windsor castle. Do you think

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Speaker 1: you're sitting with Charles and Camela. Are you talking about

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Speaker 1: sperm or semen?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, I mean any any bodily fluids, right, I

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Speaker 6: mean if a person had person or skin, skin to

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Speaker 6: skin contact, You're gonna have cellular material, You're gonna have

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Speaker 6: potentially semen, if there was sect or other bodily fluids,

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Speaker 6: if there was trauma, and the person causing the trauma

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Speaker 6: themselves may have been hurt or bled upon that person.

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Speaker 6: So bodily fluids is all encompassing. But yes, they would

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Speaker 6: have done a sexual assault examination. They would have looked

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Speaker 6: inside her vagina to see if there was any evidence

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Speaker 6: of semen or other fluid.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 6: Then doing the external and internal examination, they would have

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Speaker 6: looked for all kinds of injury. They would have looked

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Speaker 6: for bruising, They would have looked for evidence of strangulation

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Speaker 6: uh heembrhage in the muscles of the neck, fractures of

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Speaker 6: the thyrewood cartilage or highwaid bone partiti, and the eyes

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Speaker 6: all signs that would allow them to determine if there

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Speaker 6: was a fatal injury present.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Corne, you mentioned the partiki in the eyes, and

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Speaker 1: I assume you bring that up, which is the bursting

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Speaker 1: of the blood vessels in the eye. They are minute

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Speaker 1: typically not seen by the naked human eye. You'd have

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Speaker 1: to put the eyeballs under a microscope to look and

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Speaker 1: what that bursting. That hemorrhage would mean very often, not always,

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Speaker 1: but very often if she was asphyxiated. The pressure from

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Speaker 1: being asphyxiated makes the blood vessels in the eye burst.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be seen in a nasal cavity as well,

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Speaker 1: but specifically in the eyes. Would that burst PARTICKII disappear

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Speaker 1: after say twelve hours, fourteen hours, twenty four hours when

438
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 1: the body gets to the amase office or would that

439
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: still be there?

440
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 6: That would still be there, So all the patika, if

441
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 6: there was partika a president in the eyes, they would

442
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 6: still be there. They would also look within the mouth

443
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 6: as well, because there's no uncommon and got patitiah in

444
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 6: the mucosa of our lips, so underneath our lips, so

445
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 6: those those areas, and you may even see faint tiki

446
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 6: around the eyes, on the skin of the face, depending

447
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 6: upon how hard and how rapid the person was strangled.

448
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: How would you be able to tell the difference between

449
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: a manual or ligature of strangulation versus asphyxiations such as

450
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: being suffocated by a pillow?

451
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 6: Sure well, I mean strangulation. You're gonna have marks of strangulation.

452
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 6: You're gonna have bruises around the neck. If you use

453
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 6: the ligature, you'll have a ligature mark around the neck.

454
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 6: If a person used a pillow, they're gonna have to

455
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 6: press really hard because a person who is being asphyxiated

456
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 6: is generally not willing, so they're gonna be fighting back,

457
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 6: and so they'll probably have abrasions on the face. You

458
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 6: may even see some lacerations inside the lips where the

459
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 6: lips are pressed against the teeth. You may even see

460
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 6: tearing at the frenula of the mouth, you know, that

461
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 6: little part that attaches our lip to our gum line.

462
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 6: That tissue may be torn. And then, of course, if

463
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 6: there is a perpetrator, you may also see injuries on

464
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 6: that person. Because my assumption is a person being strangled

465
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 6: or asphyxiated is going to be fighting back, maybe scratching

466
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 6: their attacker. So you may even actually look at that

467
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 6: person and be checking their hands and their body for

468
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 6: signs of injury.

469
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: Another issue, Doctor Thomas Coin, This murder was obviously not

470
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: well thought out. The manual strangulation versus ligature manual would

471
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: be more spur of the moment. But if a ligature

472
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: was used, we may very well find a ligature either

473
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: still around her neck or right there with her body.

474
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 6: Correct, and then you can compare marks on her neck

475
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 6: because very often when you strangle a person with the ligature,

476
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 6: you leave a patterned abrasion or other patterned injury on

477
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 6: the neck that then you can compare to the potential

478
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 6: object used to produce the strangulation.

479
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: For instance, if it's a rope, then you would see

480
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: rope marks that can be compared to the actual rope.

481
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: Spencer Erinfield joining us. He is the cruise ship lawyer

482
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: and has handled a myriad of cruise related accidents and deaths. Spencer,

483
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about not just evidence from the

484
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: body of this little girl, but digital forensic evidence. You

485
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: have been on a million cruise ships investigating cases. It's

486
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: like being in a Vegas casino for Pete's sake, more

487
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: than NASA. Every square inch is covered like you're walking

488
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: through LaGuardia. For Pete's sake. Everything's covered with surveillance video

489
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: and the keys to the room are digital their key card.

490
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: Nobody's using the old skeleton key anymore, which is valuable

491
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: evidence explained.

492
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: So they have like a black that's connected to the

493
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: doors of these cruise lines that will show you who entered.

494
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 4: Because each passenger has their own card, what time they

495
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 4: entered and what time the door shut, they will also

496
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 4: be able to tell what time the door opened. And

497
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 4: all you have to do, Nancy is sink that with

498
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 4: the high definition CCTV that they have of that hallway,

499
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 4: and you'll be able to time precisely when she entered

500
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 4: the cabin, and when each and every other member of

501
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 4: the family, as well as the cabin steward who apparently

502
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 4: found her entered the cabin. How long did it take

503
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: him once he was in the cabin to exit the cabin.

504
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: All those things are very easily determined by CCTV, assuming

505
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 4: Carnival still has it. And this is why I'm thrilled

506
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 4: that the FBI boarded the ship so quickly, because it

507
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 4: prevented Carnival from getting rid of that CCTV footage that

508
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 4: they often do in many of the cases that I'm

509
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: investigating and prosecuting right now.

510
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: Robert Crispin speaking of the FBI, I am going to

511
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: amen everything Spencer Aaronfeld just said, because you know who

512
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: is the security and the investigators on cruise ships. I

513
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: do not want them investigating a highly technical murder where

514
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: there could be molecular DNA. For Pete's sake, Explain who

515
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: is the security and the criminal investigators on cruise ships.

516
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: Wow, Nancy, that is a wide range of unique individuals,

517
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 3: and a lot of them are from England. A lot

518
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: of them are from Germany because these ships go all

519
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 3: over the place, so they have their people here. But

520
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: some of these people are just every day random people

521
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: who went out and got a security license, passed an

522
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: Internet test on the internet, got their license, and they're

523
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: in charge of thirty five hundred people in international waters

524
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: and don't have a clue how to lockdown a crime scene,

525
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: how to lockdown people related to a crime scene, and

526
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,959
Speaker 3: how to lock down the entire ship if they have to,

527
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: Because everybody on that ship, Nancy, when it got here

528
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: is a suspect in my eyes as an investigator, Get

529
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: off the ship, exit expeditiously.

530
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: I don't think so crime stories with Nancy Grace. So

531
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: I could have a bouncer from a bar in one

532
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: of the islands as the security or the investigator. Sure

533
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: on the cruise ship. It's entirely possibutly, is it.

534
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: Not, Yes, it is absolutely.

535
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: You mentioned three thousand witnesses try nearly six thousand potential

536
00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: witnesses listen.

537
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,239
Speaker 10: The fourteen deck Carnival Horizon sails to the Caribbean from

538
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 10: Galveston and Miami, with space for nearly four thousand passengers

539
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 10: in addition to a fifteen hundred person crew. The ship

540
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 10: features three pools with water slides, a ropes course and skybike,

541
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 10: a basketball court and jogging track, nine holes of mini golf,

542
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 10: adult and children's clubs, a casino, an arcade, an IMAX

543
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 10: movie theater, a spa, three auditoriums, and more bars and

544
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 10: restaurants than you could visit during four to eight day cruises.

545
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: Let me remind everyone, no one has been named an

546
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: official suspect in this case. No one has been named

547
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: a POI person of interest. What we are learning tonight

548
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: is from court filings and comments made by the family.

549
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: That's where we are learning our information tonight. If you

550
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: know or think you know anything about the death of

551
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: this teen girl, Anna dead on a Carnival Cruz call

552
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: seven five four seven zero three two thousand, seven five

553
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: four seven zero three two thousand. We remember an American hero,

554
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: Sergeant Jeffrey Green, Union County Sheriffs, North Carolina, killed in

555
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: the line of duty after ten years serving and protecting,

556
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: leaving behind wife now widow, April American Hero Sergeant Jeffrey Green,

557
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,