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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards. Our guests for this week,

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Speaker 2: Molly Hunger Molly, Welcome to the Poor gam.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm excited. I'm excited, Molly. What do you know

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Speaker 3: about kent Hoven? When you first brought ken Hooven, I

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Speaker 3: had him mixed up with a different creation as with

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Speaker 3: the same initials. I was thinking of ken Ham. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 2: Weird that they have the same initials.

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Speaker 3: So I have been to ken Ham's Creation Museum. We

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Speaker 3: are animatronic dinosaurs, but I have not been the kent

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Speaker 3: Hoven's dinosaur Land.

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Speaker 2: It's really weird now that you bring it up. I

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Speaker 2: mentioned hamm in here because he's like ham is the

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Speaker 2: good creationist park, right like if you've seen in terms

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Speaker 2: of like they put some money into that thing, Like

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Speaker 2: if you've been there, you've like if if you've seen

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Speaker 2: photos and stuff of like online, it's the one with

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Speaker 2: like you see like the diet there's like a stegosaurus

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Speaker 2: with a fucking saddle on it and stuff, and it's like, oh, Robert.

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Speaker 3: I will have to send you the picture of me

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Speaker 3: riding the trice Arato.

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Speaker 2: That's like a decent quality model, right Like at least

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Speaker 2: in the photos. It looks like they put some money

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Speaker 2: into that point.

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Speaker 3: I learned a lot about how humanity used to coexist

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Speaker 3: with the dinosaurs.

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Speaker 2: That's great, Molly, we'll be talking about that today. Kent

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Speaker 2: Hovend is like not even the Kirkland brand version of

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Speaker 2: that guy. He's the dollar General ken Ham right.

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Speaker 3: Signature.

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Speaker 2: You're right, he's he's the dollar General uh like brand

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Speaker 2: of that guy. Because he also has a dinosaur amusement park.

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Speaker 2: But it's dog shit and it killed a kid. So

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Speaker 2: we're gonna have fun with this guy, Mollie. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: have fun with this guy. So our subject to this

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Speaker 2: week is doctor Kent Hovind a real doctor.

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Speaker 3: It's never a real doctor on this show, mall.

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Speaker 2: Third of the time. Maybe it's a real doctor. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He is a Christian educator with a passion for debating evolutionists.

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Speaker 2: He believes that evolution is a religion and arguing that

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Speaker 2: there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark. He also runs, as

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Speaker 2: I said, a dinosaur slash Bible themed park that doubles

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Speaker 2: a compound for what is kind of a cult, a

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Speaker 2: lower case see cult. I will say, as cult leaders go.

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Speaker 3: He's not good at it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he doesn't really want that much control because he

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to exercise as much of it as a

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Speaker 2: lot of them. But it's still pretty bad.

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean, if there's no automatic rifles or child marriage,

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Speaker 3: is it really a compound? Molly.

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Speaker 2: I will say there's probably automatic rifles because it is

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Speaker 2: an Arkansas, but as for the rest of it, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. He did get a kid killed there, so

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say it's very good. Hey, everyone, Robert

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Speaker 2: here from the future, and I fucked up. I wrote

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Speaker 2: this both ways. The reality is that Kentovend now today

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Speaker 2: lives in Alabama, not Arkansas. I don't know why I

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Speaker 2: said Arkansas so much, other than I was very hungover

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Speaker 2: from a variety of gas station drugs when we recorded

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Speaker 2: this episode, so you can chalk that one up to

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Speaker 2: me being gas station sober these days. Again, Kent Hoven

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Speaker 2: lives in Alabama now, not Arkansas. I might argue that

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Speaker 2: some of this is the fault of people in both

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Speaker 2: Alabama and Arkansas from being two different states when we

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Speaker 2: all know they should be the same state, but that's

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Speaker 2: rather beside the point. Kent E. Hovend was born on

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Speaker 2: January fifteenth, nineteen fifty three. I think he was born

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Speaker 2: in Pensacola, Florida, but I don't feel great about my Yeah,

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Speaker 2: not a good start.

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Speaker 3: He may not have been.

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Speaker 2: This may just be like bad AI summaries of stuff,

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Speaker 2: although I found it in places that are not AI generated.

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Speaker 2: But he seems to have immediately moved to East Peoria, Illinois,

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Speaker 2: and spent most of his childhood there. He's there until

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Speaker 2: he's like a young man. So I don't know if

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Speaker 2: he was actually born in Illinois because I haven't really

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Speaker 2: found a good direct source on that, but probably born

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Speaker 2: in Florida, moved immediately to Illinois. I've come across basically

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Speaker 2: nothing solid about his childhood or his parents, except for

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Speaker 2: the fact that on numerous occasions he has said that

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Speaker 2: he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior on February ninth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. So he's about sixteen. Yeah, yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: We talk about this on the show occasionally, but it

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Speaker 2: bears reemphasizing that, like in our cultural memory, sixty nine

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Speaker 2: is like the summer of love, hippies and weed and

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Speaker 2: anti war protests and all that good stuff. That's a

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Speaker 2: pretty reductive picture of what's going on because right alongside

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Speaker 2: all of that stuff, the civil rights movement in Woodstock,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, there's the birth of a subculture known as

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Speaker 2: Jesus People. Right, That's also a thing that's happening here.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge surgeon like really unhinged Christian evangelism. Right,

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Speaker 2: some of this is a reaction to the bad side

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Speaker 2: of the hippie years.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: You've got with free love comes a lot of people

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Speaker 2: getting STDs. You have a lot of people overdosing on drugs.

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Speaker 2: You have swarms of young people who don't really have

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Speaker 2: any money crowding into San Francisco and winding up basically

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Speaker 2: living on the street. And a lot of these people

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Speaker 2: get like disillusioned and desperate. And one of the first

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Speaker 2: of them to get disillusioned is a guy named Ted Wise.

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Speaker 2: Wise was a saale maker who had a bad LSD

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Speaker 2: trip in nineteen sixty five and heard the voice of God.

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Speaker 2: That'll get you, Yeah, that'll get you. I I you know,

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Speaker 2: as a kid when I did drugs. You know, now,

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Speaker 2: I'm straight edge except for you know, the stuff you

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Speaker 2: can buy in gas stations. But as a kid, when

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Speaker 2: I started doing drugs, I had this like evangelical belief

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Speaker 2: that a lot of young people get that, Like, man,

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Speaker 2: if we could just put this shit in the water

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Speaker 2: supply and fix everything, that is not how drugs work.

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Speaker 2: I was very wrong to nineteen year.

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Speaker 3: Old were you in the CIA, Robert, Yes, yes, briefly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what everyone says. No, it turns out drugs

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Speaker 2: can lead you in very bad directions, and that's what

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Speaker 2: happens with Wise. He starts working with a bunch of

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Speaker 2: pastors in the Bay Area to take in runaway hippie

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Speaker 2: kids and turn them into evangelists. This thing that kind

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Speaker 2: of becomes the Jesus movement starts in northern California, but

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Speaker 2: soon there's coffee houses and soup kitchens, churches and farms

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Speaker 2: with communal living spaces, all real bent on Jesus all

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Speaker 2: over the country. Now, Kent doesn't graduate high school until

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, which puts him at the old end

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Speaker 2: of the Jesus People generation, and the evidence we have

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Speaker 2: suggests he was always more in the conservative end of

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Speaker 2: the Christian spectrum than some of the Eastern mysticism inspired

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Speaker 2: Jesus People, because, like you get a lot of in

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Speaker 2: some of the Christianity that comes out of the Jesus

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Speaker 2: People movement. You get a little bit of like, we've

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Speaker 2: thrown a little bit of Buddhism in here. We stuck

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Speaker 2: a couple of Yo him pisses in here. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: still hippies, you know, we are still smoking pot, right,

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Speaker 2: But the cultural weight of that swing towards evangelical Christianity

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Speaker 2: is definitely an influence on Ham. The preachers he's drawn to, though,

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Speaker 2: are men like Jack Hiles. Hiles is an obscure figure

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Speaker 2: to most Americans, but starting in the late nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 2: Hyles is kind of the He kind of invents megachurches.

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Speaker 2: That's who That's who Hiles is. He calls his church

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Speaker 2: the Independent Baptist Church, and he it's crowned a super

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Speaker 2: church by time in nineteen seventy five. Because he it's

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Speaker 2: not just a place where people will go on Sundays.

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Speaker 2: He builds a Bible college there, unaccredited obviously, he builds

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Speaker 2: what becomes one of the largest Sunday schools in the country.

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Speaker 2: So there's all these like ancillary buildings and programs attached

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Speaker 2: to the bigger chure, and so thousands of people become

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Speaker 2: members and it's this is kind of like the first

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Speaker 2: precursor to what becomes the megachurch, right, this is like

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Speaker 2: the Austrolopithecus of megachurches. Cool, So, yeah, that's Hiles's the's

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Speaker 2: that's who Kent is going to be kind of like

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Speaker 2: obsessed with as a kid.

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Speaker 1: And like a very triggering last name. For some reason,

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Speaker 1: I feel like.

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Speaker 2: He should be British with that last ye, right, he

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Speaker 2: should be played by the guy who played Niles in Frasier.

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Speaker 1: Does it feels like it feels like there'd be a

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Speaker 1: villain in some movie with that name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so played by christ He is kind of a villain,

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Speaker 2: and Christian Slater might be able to handle this role.

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Speaker 2: He can handle most things. He's a great actor. But

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Speaker 2: Hiles is a fundamentalist. He taught that people could not

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Speaker 2: be born again unless they were brought to Christ using

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Speaker 2: the King James Bible, which is that's a big thing

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Speaker 2: for I don't know, like a fifth of Christians in

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Speaker 2: the country today that like the King James Bible specifically

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Speaker 2: is the Word of God and all of the other

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Speaker 2: older or newer you know, translations and whatnot are wrong

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Speaker 2: in some way. You just have God came back to

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Speaker 2: do to drop like a mixtape, a remix of his

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Speaker 2: old hits, and this is the only thing you're allowed

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Speaker 2: to listen to now.

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Speaker 3: I love this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Hovind also admired a guy named Bob Jones, Sr. Who

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna guess you've heard of, Oh.

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Speaker 3: I've heard of Jones University. Absolutely, yeah, Well this is

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Speaker 3: a fine institution.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the great college one of the great

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Speaker 2: learning centers in our nation.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've always said, can you really be learning

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Speaker 3: if you're not wearing pantyhose? No?

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Speaker 2: No, And Bob Jones Senior would say absolutely not. He

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Speaker 2: was an American evangelist, one of the first Christian radio stars,

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Speaker 2: and as you said, he founded Bob Jones University. He

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Speaker 2: was also a segregationist and one of the people who

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Speaker 2: felt like having a Catholic in the White House was

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Speaker 2: going to doom this nation to papist domination.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: He's one of those guys who would like rant about

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Speaker 2: the papists taking control of the government and me in

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Speaker 2: every word, oh what a different time. I almost have

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Speaker 2: trouble getting in the head of someone who is like

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Speaker 2: specifically scared that the Catholics are going to take over

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Speaker 2: this country, like we have one in there now and

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Speaker 2: he's like barely holding on.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's only because the power of the pope has waned. Robert.

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Speaker 3: If you had a more powerful pope, I think would

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Speaker 3: be would be really in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we need the pope needs a thousand blood sacrifices

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Speaker 2: to get his power level back up to where he

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Speaker 2: can he can cast Mammon out of the temples that

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Speaker 2: we've built in Capitol Hill. I think that's right, mammon. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's the God of money. So Kin's personal pastor was

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Speaker 2: Lauren Dawson, whose gospel tape ministry was a groundbreaking Christian business,

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Speaker 2: sending more than ten thousand taped sermons ten thousand individual

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Speaker 2: tape sermons out to anyone who wanted to buy them.

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Speaker 2: This is like before the Internet. This is if you

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Speaker 2: want to spread your shit in an Internet like way.

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Speaker 2: This is kind of how a lot of shit spread

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Speaker 2: mimetically throughout the kind of what becomes the Christian right.

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Speaker 2: And Kent is going to devour every one of these

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Speaker 2: tapes he can get his hands on as a young man,

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Speaker 2: and this is where he learns the secrets of public

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Speaker 2: speaking and preaching. As a business. In fact, if I

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Speaker 2: had to draw together the similarities between the different guys

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Speaker 2: Kent admired as a boy, it would be that they

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Speaker 2: all succeeded in turning their faith into an industry or

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Speaker 2: industries instead of just a church.

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Speaker 3: Right, he's.

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Speaker 2: Right, money changing in the temple Jesus favorite thing.

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Speaker 3: We all know. He's huge into stuff. The Word of

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Speaker 3: God is for sale.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Why wouldn't it be. He didn't come back

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Speaker 2: to rewrite the King James Bible for you to not

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Speaker 2: make a buck.

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Speaker 3: Off of it, you know.

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Speaker 2: So these guys are Kent's guiding light, and he saw

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Speaker 2: this like decides his future is in Christianity, not specifically

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Speaker 2: as a belief system or a way of life, because

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Speaker 2: he does not live a particularly Christian life, but as

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Speaker 2: a way to make a living. Specifically, he decides he's

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Speaker 2: going to make a living in Christian education. Here's what

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Speaker 2: he writes about his development past this point in twenty

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Speaker 2: twelve on a website called Creation Today, one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite news sources. Molly his keen interest in math and

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Speaker 2: science throughout his high school career prompted his enrollment at

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Speaker 2: Illinois Central College as a science major after two years

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Speaker 2: of undergraduate work there and feeling God calling him to

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Speaker 2: full time Christian service, he completed his Bachelor of Religious

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Speaker 2: Education degree at Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan, in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four. For fifteen years, Hovan taught high school

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Speaker 2: math and science, during which time he completed his master's

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Speaker 2: degree in education. While researching and writing his doctoral dissertation

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Speaker 2: on the subject of creation versus Evolution, he saw the

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Speaker 2: tremendous need for exposing evolution as a dangerous religious worldview

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Speaker 2: and for arming Christians with scientific evidence that there are

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Speaker 2: no contradictions between true science and the Bible. In response

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Speaker 2: to these needs, shortly after finishing his PhD in religious education,

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Speaker 2: he began a full time ministry.

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Speaker 3: Now, so he's teaching high school science. Not at all, Molly,

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Speaker 3: all of that's lies. Every word I read almost was

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Speaker 3: a lie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no.

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Speaker 2: No again. Seventy percent of the time. If I introduced

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Speaker 2: someone on their show as a doctor, they are not

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Speaker 2: in fact a doctor. And yeah, basically everything he put.

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Speaker 2: He may have done two years of college trying to

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Speaker 2: get a science degree, but he didn't get a science degree,

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Speaker 2: which is about as impressive as the two years I

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Speaker 2: spent considering getting a history degree, right, Like.

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Speaker 3: You didn't get it.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter really, But let's start with the most

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Speaker 2: basic claim up there, right, that he taught high school

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Speaker 2: math and science for fifteen years. This seems like it

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Speaker 2: would probably be true. People usually don't lie about being

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Speaker 2: a high school math and science teachers. And like, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of teachers in the country, right. Teaching is

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Speaker 2: not an easy job, obviously, but it's not impossible for

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Speaker 2: cranks and weirdos to get teaching degrees.

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Speaker 3: Right, it happens. I've had a couple of them time

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Speaker 3: times and places where you don't even need a teaching degree. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: well that's exactly where Kent comes in. Right.

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Speaker 2: He does do some teaching, but it's not what you

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Speaker 2: or I would call high school math and science teaching.

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Speaker 2: The reality is that he gets teaching gigs at three

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Speaker 2: private Christian schools, none of which you're accredited, all of

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Speaker 2: which you're run out of churches, and one of them

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Speaker 2: is run out of a church that he founded. There

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Speaker 2: is no public record of him having a teaching career

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Speaker 2: or evidence that he ever taught at something the government

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Speaker 2: recognizes as a school, so there's no nothing behind that. Really,

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Speaker 2: he may have lectured about dinosaurs to some kids for

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Speaker 2: fifteen years, but we can't prove it.

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Speaker 3: The real science class is the friends we made along

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Speaker 3: the way.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Molly, that's right. So Kent worked as a

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Speaker 2: pastor and a not really a teacher teacher from nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy five until around nineteen eighty eight. While he was

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Speaker 2: still in school. In nineteen seventy three, he married his

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Speaker 2: first wife, Joe. And I need to put emphasis on

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Speaker 2: the word first there, because for a man who believes

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Speaker 2: divorce is a sin, Kent Hoven does a lot of

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Speaker 2: getting divorced.

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Speaker 3: Not yet though.

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Speaker 2: He and Joe are going to have three kids from

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven to nineteen seventy nine, which is too

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Speaker 2: fast to have three kids us. That's quite a rate,

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Speaker 2: poor Joe. Yeah. But in that time he started one

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Speaker 2: private Baptist school and he worked as an assistant pastor

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Speaker 2: at two others. In nineteen eighty nine, dismayed by the

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Speaker 2: growth of scientific rational thought in popular culture, he moved

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Speaker 2: to Pensacola and created a new ministry, Creation Science Evangelism.

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Speaker 2: The goal with this ministry was to promote creationism, and

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Speaker 2: he begins traveling around the world delivering lectures about how

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Speaker 2: to argue with evolutionists. He also sold merch, most of

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Speaker 2: it dinosaur themed, and this becomes a surprisingly successful business ultimately.

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Speaker 2: But it's a slow start at first, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to cover what happens next. But first, Mollie, you know

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Speaker 2: what didn't get a slow start.

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Speaker 3: Away? Is it these products and services?

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Speaker 2: It's these excellent products and services that support our podcast

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Speaker 2: and or program. Ah, we're back, and Mollie, you were

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Speaker 2: just telling me that some other iHeart hosts have been

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Speaker 2: getting sent allergy medicine which I could sorely use right now.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what drug it is?

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Speaker 3: Is that I'm being honest with you. I skip the ads,

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Speaker 3: but I have the tail end of a couple of them.

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Speaker 3: Some of our colleagues.

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Speaker 1: No, they're not giving us money yet, don't shill for that.

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Speaker 3: I know. I want to know what it is. I

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Speaker 3: want them to give us. Colleges are getting allergy pills

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Speaker 3: for free?

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Speaker 2: Is it the stuff with methan? It because I missed

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Speaker 2: that ship that was good, that was the stuff that worked.

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Speaker 2: Everybody bullshit, I don't think.

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Speaker 3: I don't think out of a tin treats allergies. Literally,

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Speaker 3: that was.

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Speaker 1: The best allergy medicine. And then and then you they

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Speaker 1: put them behind the pharmacy and.

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Speaker 2: Because they're plusted people doing shaken bags, it's bullshit, Like,

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Speaker 2: what's the harm a little bit of picher?

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Speaker 1: Come on, that's the best I could ever breathe, to

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Speaker 1: be honest. And then all of a sudden they were gone,

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Speaker 1: and or you would go and buy them and you'd

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Speaker 1: buy a box and those were not the right bills.

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Speaker 3: Yeah a time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's we need to have like, if

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Speaker 2: we're going to have all of these guns be legal,

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Speaker 2: we need to have a standard where if you can't

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Speaker 2: prove something is scarier than an AR fifteen, it has

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Speaker 2: to be legal, right, Like shake and bake biker meth,

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Speaker 2: like that's not nearly as dangerous as guns. Let's let

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Speaker 2: let it. Let people buy it over the counter.

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Speaker 3: Come on, enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, come on, guys. We probably still have seat belts,

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Speaker 2: but maybe we get rid of air bags for those

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Speaker 2: weird air bag fundamentalists. I feel like that's a voting block.

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Speaker 2: We might be able to conquer that kind of guy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Molly, that's absolutely there's about a million of

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Speaker 2: those guys in the country, and if we get them

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Speaker 2: on our side, we can legal lies the good allergy medicine.

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Speaker 3: Again.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, back to Kent, hovind So. Kent starts his new

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Speaker 2: ministry in between earning his master's degree in Christian education

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight and his PhD in Christian education

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety one. Now I know what you're asking, Mollie,

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Speaker 2: because you asked this earlier. Are those real degrees? Don't worry,

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Speaker 2: We're getting to it. So for the first years of

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Speaker 2: his career, though, he lectures dozens of times at schools

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Speaker 2: and Sunday schools and churches and Bible colleges. He says

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Speaker 2: he lectures at public schools. It's Arkansas and Florida, so

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Speaker 2: there's a good chance he's not lying. And his focus

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Speaker 2: is in laying tactics out for arguing against evolution.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: He's particularly obsessed with public debates and arming his audiences

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Speaker 2: with this arsenal of gotcha lines that they can use

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Speaker 2: to win public confrontations, and a lot of it has

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Speaker 2: to do with like setting the terms of the debate

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Speaker 2: in a way where you're not really arguing about evolution

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Speaker 2: or like trying to lead people into these logic traps.

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Speaker 2: He thinks he's built. But here's an example of the

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Speaker 2: kind of shit he's doing.

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Speaker 4: Just you're gonna say, and where did God come from?

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Speaker 4: I don't know, but you said twenty billion years ago

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Speaker 4: there was a big bang, and you don't know where

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Speaker 4: the dirt came from. So basically, I believe in the

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Speaker 4: beginning God and you believe in the beginning dirt. Don't

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Speaker 4: tell me my theory is religious and yours is science.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, sir, they're both religious. The news media tries

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Speaker 4: to make it look like it is religion versus science.

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Speaker 4: I did a debate in El Paso, Texas here recently,

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Speaker 4: and the media wrote an article they said religious and

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Speaker 4: scientifically to urge debate evolution. What is the unspoken message

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Speaker 4: in that title?

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Speaker 3: What are they trying to imply?

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Speaker 4: Can you catch that? They're trying to imply that evolution

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Speaker 4: is part of science, aren't they? No, evolution is a religion.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like he's about to start rapping. It does

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Speaker 3: sound like he's about to drop a bar. Really, I

390
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Speaker 3: could feel it coming.

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Speaker 2: No, he doesn't have that Ben Shapiro level of versatility.

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Speaker 3: He's the bench of Bureau of Dinosaurs.

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Speaker 1: He is, he is. The background music is such a choice.

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Speaker 3: It's fascinating stuff. But like he's he's like why did

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Speaker 3: he do that? Singer?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you see what he's doing there though, right, he's

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Speaker 2: like number one, he's starting this is he's not starting

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Speaker 2: by talking about evolution, like he's he's literally immediately taking

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Speaker 2: the rails off of the debate because evolution has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with the Big Bang, right, Like he starts

401
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Speaker 2: by talking about the formation of the universe, and there's

402
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Speaker 2: actually always going to be a degree of unknown, right,

403
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Speaker 2: like we're never going to get perfect. Now I would

404
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Speaker 2: disagree with him. There's actually quite a bit because of

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Speaker 2: the way that like looking at shit in space works,

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Speaker 2: there's quite a bit that we can observe about the

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Speaker 2: early days of the universe that we simply cannot observe

408
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Speaker 2: about like his beliefs about a god. But that has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with evolution, which is like again like

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Speaker 2: mutations and changes in time over species, you know, aggregating

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Speaker 2: over the course of incredibly long periods of time, right,

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Speaker 2: Like that has nothing to do with like the Big Bang,

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Speaker 2: and it's separate things.

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Speaker 3: But like at the end of the day, like, I'm

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Speaker 3: not an astrophysicist. I cannot tell you how dirt accreted

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Speaker 3: in the emptiness of space to form Earth because that's

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Speaker 3: not my business. That's not my business. But I can

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Speaker 3: tell you that a child never wrote a dinosaur. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I can't tell you a child never wrote a dinosaur.

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Speaker 2: And I can tell you that just like you know,

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Speaker 2: when we get into like the the arcana of astrophysics, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of that's over my head. Will we

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Speaker 2: get into the basics of evolutionary theory, all of that

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Speaker 2: makes complete sense. I understand that quite well, Like, because

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Speaker 2: you can see there's variance in just.

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Speaker 3: Like the people.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you've had a bunch of different dogs

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Speaker 2: and cats, there's variants in them. And some of the

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Speaker 2: different variants that occurs naturally as animals breed are going

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Speaker 2: to be more adaptive to their environment than others, and

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Speaker 2: over time that will change the species, and that will

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Speaker 2: lead to like the splitting into different species. Right, you

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Speaker 2: can see it on a micro scale in your own

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Speaker 2: life if you have animals, and you can understand how,

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Speaker 2: over the course of billions of years, it would lead

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Speaker 2: to much more drastic changes than you see in like

437
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 2: a few generations of goats.

438
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 3: Are Yeah, but who invented dirt, Robert, But who invented dirt? Gotcha?

439
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 3: I got you. I find it very frustrating. Yeah.

440
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,239
Speaker 2: Anyway, I want to play one more clip to you

441
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 2: of Kent before we move on. And this isn't him

442
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 2: talking about evolution, but I came across it in my research,

443
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 2: and I do think it sets up some things about

444
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 2: the kind of man he is.

445
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 3: This clip is called Kentoven goes Bananas. It sure is. Molly,

446
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: I was about six years old.

447
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 4: I was raised in East Peoria, Illinois.

448
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 3: By the way, I know, I'm in Tennessee. But are

449
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 3: there any more Yankees in the crowd? Any Yankees out there? Five?

450
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 4: Six, seven?

451
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: Okay?

452
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 3: How many Southerners do we have?

453
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 4: Ooh?

454
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 3: Well, just remember who won?

455
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: If you would, I know what over you.

456
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 3: I couldn't help that.

457
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 4: But I did move to Florida as soon as I

458
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 4: got smart enough to figure out you know this.

459
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 3: Again, So I just I needed to play that little bit.

460
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 2: About to sell rising again to let people know that

461
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 2: he's down with the Confederacy, that he didn't all wasn't always,

462
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: but now he knows they.

463
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 3: Were remembering who won. But it's not over. But it's

464
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 3: not over. It's such a weird splitting.

465
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: I enjoy his five six seven hand motions.

466
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that's those are like workmanlike public speaking,

467
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 2: you know, tech tactics.

468
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 3: He's not bad at he's good at it. Actually you

469
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 3: have to give him. Yeah.

470
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: So one of the nice things about Kent, about writing

471
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 2: about Kent, and also one of the frustrating things, is

472
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: that he started reaching for prominence as a creationist debate

473
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 2: bro effectively in the nineties.

474
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: Right.

475
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 2: And if you if you remember the Internet of like

476
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 2: particularly the mid to late nineties early two thousands, a

477
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: huge thing on the Internet back then was inner atheists,

478
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: and this community sometimes called the skeptic community. It's split

479
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: in a number of directions. In the modern era, some

480
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 2: of these people have gone in very heartbreaking directions.

481
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: Right.

482
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: We can talk about Richard Dawkins being like, now I'm

483
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,120
Speaker 2: a cultural Christian because I hate Islam so much. Right,

484
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: But there was this there was this kind of not

485
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 2: even brief, like a decade period where like there was

486
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: an army of everyone from like forum trolls to like

487
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: guys like Dawkins who were just committed, like like pitbulls,

488
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 2: to like hanging on and like latching onto arguments with

489
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 2: Christians over creationism.

490
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 3: Right, I'm going to get.

491
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: One or both kinds of pitbull people angry at me

492
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 2: for that comment. Look, I've been attacked by.

493
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: Either way. Bill Maher is gonna becoming for me.

494
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's another one of these guys. Right, And because

495
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: because he was so prominent during this period of time,

496
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: there was like a whole information ecosystem dedicated to attacking Kentoven.

497
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 2: There were entire websites that are just picking apart his

498
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: whole life and backstory with surgical precision because he pissed

499
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: off just some of these these maniac internet atheists who

500
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: I love, I have very fond memories of, but who

501
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 2: like clearly were the kind of damaged where they would

502
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: spend seventy hours a week writing about Kent Hovind. You know,

503
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: like it's the thing we don't really have that anymore

504
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: on the Internet, Like Kiwi Farms.

505
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 3: We have Kiwi Farm, but I feel like these people

506
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 3: have the same sort of mental derange the Kiwi Farms user, but.

507
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: They're not, you know, it's it's much more ethical because

508
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 2: they're never going after harmless people like kitimately a bad

509
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: guys the.

510
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 3: Same level of fixation, but targeted in a good direction.

511
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: Yes, and targeted much more narrowly. Right, we just can't

512
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: focus the way we used to, Mollie.

513
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: So it's just information overload. Yeah.

514
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 2: One of the most detailed sites to pick apart Kent's

515
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: life was kenthovend dot com, run by John Steer. Today

516
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 2: the website is most accessible through the wayback machine, and

517
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: if you want an idea of its age, there was

518
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: a running tally at the top of every page counting

519
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: up the total cost of the Iraq War. So it's

520
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: like again, like just for a snapshot of the time.

521
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 3: This was written a beautiful time capsule.

522
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

523
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's magical stuff. It really brought me back to

524
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: my teenage years. So on that website, one of the

525
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: there's like a Q and a portion and one of

526
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: the questions is is doctor Hoven a real doctor? And

527
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: Steer writes yes and no. So it turns out Hovend

528
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: did get a religious based PhD from Patriot University, which

529
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 2: then changed its name to Patriot Bible University. They throw

530
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: a Bible in there, Molly, how does that not work better,

531
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: it's worse. It's better because it makes the acronym PBu

532
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: instead of PU. Right, Like, that's just not great for

533
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 2: they should have thought about that, but I don't know.

534
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: Despite that questionable name, PBu has been authorized by the

535
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 2: Colorado Commission of Higher Education as a seminary or Bible college,

536
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: which means it can grant religeigeous degrees, but only religious degrees.

537
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be entirely fair to say these aren't real

538
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: in the legal sense. But also Kent is going to

539
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: spend decades identifying himself as a PhD in education and

540
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: authoring scientific papers and calling himself a doctor, both to

541
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: insinuate that his PhD has something to do with science

542
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 2: or evolution. It does not, Steer writs quote. Patriot University

543
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: also claims to be accredited by an unrecognized American Accrediting

544
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: Association of Theological Institutions, which operates from the same po

545
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: box as a as Christian Bible College. Both AAATI and

546
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: CBC are run by Cecil Johnson, and CBC is only

547
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: accredited by you guessed at AAATI. This blatant conflict of

548
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: interest could be a litmus test for the quality of AAATI.

549
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: So I decided to look into this AATI, this accrediting

550
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: organization that accredits the organization that runs.

551
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 3: It, right, and it's just a diploma mill. Right.

552
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: For years, it would offer you if you wanted to

553
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: start your own Bible school, they would accredit your Bible

554
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: school for one hundred dollars plus seventy five bucks a year.

555
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: But the federal government does not recognize AAATI accreditation.

556
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: Right, didn't unders Bravik run a similar scam for years?

557
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: Oh god, he might, Yeah, I think he did. I

558
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: don't have much enough recollection of that to want.

559
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: To get into it. But we'd make fake diplomas, so yeah,

560
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: I mean, good company, good company. We need to get

561
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: into the fake diploma business, Molly. I'm getting a doctorate

562
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 3: right now.

563
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: I think I could offer degrees, and I feel like

564
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: we should just try for medical degrees. Like, let's just

565
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: see if we can get people putting out pills. You know,

566
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: I think it's worth a shot. So if we'll debate

567
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: this in private, Molly, Molly's on my side, though I

568
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: can tell she thinks this is a.

569
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: Good speaking of idea.

570
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: Mollie, would you like to see Patriot Bible University? Because

571
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: it started as a Bible college in Dallas, Texas, but

572
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 2: it moved to Colorado and it is currently based in

573
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: what appears to be a double wide trailer. No, it's

574
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 2: it's beautiful where they have parking. Year My college didn't

575
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: have nearly this good parking situation.

576
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: This is like the front office, like where's the where's

577
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 3: the rest? This is a man's house, Molly.

578
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: This isn't even a front office, is uh? And having

579
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 2: lived in trailers, I can say this isn't a particularly

580
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: nice one. Where does the students go, Yeah, they don't, Mollie.

581
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: They send their money and in letters and they get

582
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: degrees in the mail.

583
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 3: It's just a guy with a xerox machine. It's a

584
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: guy with a Xerox MASSIONEID. Yeah, solid, So I could

585
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 3: be I could be a doctor. You could be a doctor.

586
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: It costs about nineteen hundred dollars, or at least it

587
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: did twenty years ago. I'm not sure now a steal.

588
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: It's a good price. So Patriot Bible University teaches youngerth

589
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: creationism and charges monthly, which Wikipedia notes makes it unlike

590
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: most universities.

591
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: They're on the deca semester system.

592
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is Unlike most real schools.

593
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 3: Students can be predo decamesters.

594
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: Students can prepay for degrees, and in two thousand and

595
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: two they offered a buy three, get one free credit deal,

596
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: which definitely sounds okay.

597
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 3: I found a copy.

598
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: Of their internal magazine from two thousand and two, and

599
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: this is a little off topic, but they have a

600
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: whole page dedicated to suggested church signs. I want to

601
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: go through some of these, moll you want to.

602
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: Just read through these?

603
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 2: Oh?

604
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: I love that because you see these. You know, you

605
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: guys aren't in the South, but yeah, when you drive drive,

606
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: you drive a rural road, you know, through the country South,

607
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: and you gotta wonder, like, are they getting these from

608
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,239
Speaker 3: a magazine? And I guess the answer is yes, some

609
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: of them. Yes, let's pop.

610
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: Let's let's popcorn. Read.

611
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 3: I'll go.

612
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: I'll go first. God answers email Jesus at.

613
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: The best vitamin for a Christian is B one? What

614
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 3: does that even mean? Like vitamin B one? Like B two,

615
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 3: B twelve? Yeah? But what is what is the put?

616
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: Oh?

617
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: Like, the best vitamin for is to be is to

618
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: be one Christian. That's not a good pun to.

619
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: Be one with Christ strawberty.

620
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, is B one even one of the B vitamins.

621
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 2: I don't know if it is. I've never heard of it.

622
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: I think I think this is just a bad joke.

623
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: Yes, there is a vitamin there that's good.

624
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 2: That shows how much we know about vitamins. Here's another one, tithe.

625
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: If you love Jesus, anyone can honk, which seems kind

626
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: of desperate. You don't even have to love Jesus.

627
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: Wow.

628
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I know they're saying, tie if you love Jesus

629
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: because honking is too easy, like you, if you're just honking. Yeah,

630
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: give us money, fuck you, give us money.

631
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: A clear conscience makes a soft hello.

632
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: Mm there you go, prevent truth decay. Brush up on

633
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: your Bible.

634
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are people who are brushing their teeth

635
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: with their Bibles that read this magazine. Christians keep the faith,

636
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: but not from others, and don't don't keep let everybody

637
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: into Christianity. And what part of thou shalt not? Don't

638
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: you understand you didn't yell.

639
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: Thou shalt not. It's in all caps.

640
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: It isn't all caps. It isn't all caps. These aren't

641
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: even good like I've seen. Of course they're not good.

642
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: I've seen a lot of these, and these ones aren't

643
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 3: even funny.

644
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: No, these are terrible. And it's filled with letters from

645
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: like students and graduates, this magazine and like inspirational little

646
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: essays on how if you want to be a good writer,

647
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 2: the best book to read is the Bible, which is

648
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: a professional writer. I have not found the Bible particularly helpful,

649
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: not saying it's not useful. It's a it's an incredibly

650
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: important historic document. I have gained value from reading the

651
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: Bible as historic document, but I didn't get value in

652
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: like learning how to write from it. Right you'll, yeah, yeah,

653
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: there's also a lot of bullshit like Leviticus you can

654
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: mostly cut, Like if I'm editing that thing, I'm chomping

655
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: down like half of those chapters.

656
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: Right, well, you know that what is it?

657
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 4: Like? What is it?

658
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: What is it from? I think it's from Proverbs about

659
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 3: like you know, the the idiot returns to his folly

660
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: like a dog returns to its vomit.

661
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: You know, that's that's not that that's not that's a

662
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: good line, Like you wouldn't keep some of gold? Like

663
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: if I'm I might, I might do what Thomas Jefferson

664
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: did and like do my own version of the Bible,

665
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: and we're just gonna cold open on Jesus fucking up

666
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: those money lenders in the Temple and then like freeze

667
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: frame and Jesus is like looks that look to looks

668
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: to camera and goes wondering we could make we can

669
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: make a solid nineties movie Jeremy Piven plays Jesus Christ.

670
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: Uh oh, yeah, probably shouldn't cast Jeremy Piven in anything anymore,

671
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: but I watched PCU recently, so anyway, I find this

672
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: kind of stuff fascinating. As a young, angry atheist, magazines

673
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: like this kind of terrified me. But now it all

674
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: seems so quaint compared to a lot of what's gone

675
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: mainstream on the right. So I don't know, I don't

676
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: know where I land there. The essay that closes out

677
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: the issue is titled Age of Reasoning question Mark, and

678
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: it features a lengthy complaint that today's kids all know

679
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: about Snoop Dogg but not the Constitution.

680
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: Then it is I'm always saying this.

681
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: I will say I got a given credit. I learned

682
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: something maybe from this, And because it ends with an

683
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: insane story that I hadn't heard before, The story is

684
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: told of Franklin Roosevelt, who often endured long receiving lines

685
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: at the White House. He complained that no one really

686
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: paid attention to what was said. One day, during a reception,

687
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: he decided to try an experiment. To each person who

688
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: passed down the line and shook his hand, he murmured,

689
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: I murdered my grandmother this morning. The guests responded with

690
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: raises like marvelous, keep up the good work. We're proud

691
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: of you. God bless you, sir. It was not till

692
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: the end of the line, while greeting the ambassador from

693
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: Bolivia that his words were actually heard.

694
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 3: Nonplus.

695
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: The ambassador leaned over and whispered, I'm sure she had

696
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: it coming. Now that's a fun plead story.

697
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 3: That's true. Please tell me that's true.

698
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: Unclear, Molly, because I had the same reaction as you

699
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: when I read that, I was like, well, I want

700
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: that to be true.

701
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: That would make me like FBR so much more.

702
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 2: But I googled around. Snopes has looked into the matter,

703
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: and the answer is it's like a maybe, it's kind

704
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: of right on the line right. It seems to have

705
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: originated this story in a nineteen fifty three book titled

706
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: The Complete Spelled in a Weird Way Practical Joker by

707
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: h Allen Smith, who was a journalist and a comedy writer.

708
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: And like, it's unclear if this is just bullshit or

709
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: a thing he actually heard or witnessed. It may have

710
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: just been a story that went around.

711
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

712
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: My guess is this is probably not literally true, but

713
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: we can choose to believe this.

714
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, this could be our episode about faith, right, Yeah,

715
00:34:58,440 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: and I have faith.

716
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: So back to Kent Hoven, his first PhD. He's going

717
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: to get three more and all of them are equally bullshit.

718
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: Did require him to produce a doctoral dissertation? Yes, these

719
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: are an important part of real life PhD programs. And

720
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: a key aspect of like writing a thesis, right, is

721
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: that to get your doctorate you have to publish original

722
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: work that expands, to some extent the frontier of human knowledge,

723
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: or at least attempts to write. And it is something

724
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 2: that is reviewed by a committee of relevant experts. They

725
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 2: have to eventually sign off on it, and it is

726
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: published somewhere that everyone can read it. Right, This is

727
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: this is the basics of like how that's supposed to work?

728
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, now let's see it.

729
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: Because Patriot Bible University isn't a real school, no one

730
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 2: could actually find a copy of his dissertation for a

731
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: long time.

732
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 3: Eventially double wide.

733
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: Actually it was somewhere in that double wide And eventually

734
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: there's now a copy. It's got posted on like WikiLeaks.

735
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: Eventually it's an agree to which the internet was out

736
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: for this guy, loaded for bore.

737
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: Wiki leaks came. Oh, it's so funny.

738
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: But eventually, like an actual scientist reviews this thing and

739
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: points out a number of things that make this not

740
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: a real dissertation or thesis a when a real thesis

741
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: is reviewed by a committee of three to five people

742
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 2: with relevant expertise. Kent was only reviewed by doctor Wayne Knight,

743
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: who runs Patriot Bible University, and sounds like a Batman character, like, yeah,

744
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: that's a guy from the Batman cartoon.

745
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: Don't tell me that man sence academic. He sounds like

746
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 3: a guest on the fourth hour of Info Wars.

747
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: There's actually there's there's a substantially higher than zero chance

748
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 2: that doctor Wayne Knight has been on it, but Wars

749
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: I didn't think to look into that. Honestly, now that

750
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: I think about it, that's almost certain. Yeah, So, since

751
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: Kent is going to make his career badly defending creationism,

752
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: it behooves us to look at the kind of claims

753
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: he made in what is ostensibly the springboard of his

754
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: academic career. One academic who reviewed his thesis noted, even

755
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: the undergraduate honors thesis at my institution require the signatures

756
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 2: of two faculty members. This fellow goes on to note

757
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: that misspellings are rampant in cite several examples, including Canaan,

758
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: which a Bible doctor really ought to be able to spell,

759
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: and Shinto he meant shinto. Other criticisms include the fact

760
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: that the thesis does not have a title. It has

761
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: one illustration, which was a is a diagram of the

762
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: electromagnetic spectrum, literally cut out of an actual science textbook

763
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: and taped badly inside the thesis. The reviewer notes it

764
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: does not fit the page, and so what did he

765
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 2: prove that evolution is a religion and creationism is great? Well, actually,

766
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: we'll talk a little bit about his academic assault on

767
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: the theory of molly and maybe convince you to give

768
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: up your life of sin for the cleansing peace of

769
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: Bible believing Christianity.

770
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 3: But first I'm diving right into that baptismal font we

771
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 3: come back from this break.

772
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, my only Bible and my only baptism is in

773
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: the cool running rivers of commerce that supports this podcast.

774
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. Kent is going to build, you know,

775
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: his career attacking evolutions. Let's look at how he attacks it.

776
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: In this thesis quote, Hovid begins with a non standard

777
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: definition of evolution that with time, things left to themselves

778
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: can improve, and a ramble about thermodynamics. For the first time,

779
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: evolution is described as a religion. Hang on to your hats.

780
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: He then proceeds to a long pair of inaccurate definitions

781
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: of microevolution and macro evolution. He finishes this section with

782
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: a second misstatement about evolution by pinning the idea of

783
00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: evolution equals progress on the evolutionists. Now there's a lot.

784
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: That's wrong there.

785
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: I mean, for one thing, evolution is not things improving

786
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: over the time when left to themselves. It's again like

787
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: random changes, some of which are going to prove adaptive,

788
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: some of which won't. And that leads to like change

789
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 2: in differentiation in species over long periods of time. Right,

790
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: it's not inherently improving. Things don't always get better. Species

791
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 2: don't always get better because of this like that. That's

792
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: not what anyone's arguing for when they're talking about No,

793
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: of course not now. Despite what guys like Hoven say,

794
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: the theory of evolution is simple and hard to argue

795
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 2: with because it's such a reasonable thing. Hovend has to

796
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: come Like the Catholic Church hasn't had an issue with

797
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 2: it and longer than any of us has been alive.

798
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: Right, and it doesn't preclude the existence of a creator God.

799
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: You could just say, no, God invented evolution. Done.

800
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: There's plenty of perfectly fine, like fucking YouTube arguments you

801
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: can make for evolution being integrated with a belief in God.

802
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: I don't care how convinced saying you as an individual

803
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: find them. They're all more convincing than what Kint is saying.

804
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 3: Right, you can still believe in your God without being silly.

805
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pope does, and he believes in a lot

806
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: of silly shit.

807
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we have a woke pope now, we do,

808
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: we do hu woke huge problem, a real issue.

809
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 2: So Hovend has to come up because evolution is such

810
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 2: an inherently reasonable concept. Hoven has to come up with

811
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 2: his own straw man definitions of evolution to argue against,

812
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: and they're always a little bit different. Later in his career,

813
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: he's going to offer a two hundred and fifty thousand

814
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: dollars prize to anyone who can promise empirically his word

815
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: that evolution is real. And here's how he defines it

816
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: for the purpose of this argument. When I use the

817
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: word evolution, I am not referring to the minor variations

818
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 2: found in all of various all of the various life

819
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: forms microevolution. I am referring to the general theory of evolution,

820
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: which believes that these five major events took place without God.

821
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 2: Number one, time, space and matter came into existence by themselves.

822
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: Number two and it's and stars formed from space dust.

823
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: Number three, Matter created life by itself. Number four, early

824
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: life forms learned to reproduce themselves. Number five major changes

825
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: between these diverse life forms And like, that's not evolution, man,

826
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: you're wrapping a bunch of different things into like all together.

827
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 2: Like the theory. Darwin's theory of evolution did not involve

828
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: the Big Bang.

829
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: No, that's a way later. It's way late. He was just.

830
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 2: Looking at some fucking, uh fuckingches, yeah, finches and shit,

831
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: and going like, oh, it looks like species differentiate over time.

832
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: He tasted a bunch of different birds.

833
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he ate every animal that he could and worked

834
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 2: out a basic theory. So far, what we've got here

835
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 2: is with Kent is a local pastor and teacher who's

836
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: built a nice business for himself lecturing at churches and

837
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: Bible schools about creationism. Now that's not a good thing,

838
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: but on its own, that's not noteworthy enough to make

839
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: him a subject of this episode. Right, there is something

840
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: that makes Kent special, which is that he is one of,

841
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 2: if not maybe the first of these kinds of guys

842
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: to realize that the internet is about to be a

843
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: huge deal and how to use the Internet in order

844
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,760
Speaker 2: to make a shitload of money for himself and build

845
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 2: a following.

846
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 3: Right he is.

847
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if he's the first of this kind

848
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: of guy, but he's the first I'm aware of that

849
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 2: really starts this with a website called doctor Dino. He

850
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: makes me the mid nineties, Yeah, and he starts selling

851
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: and collecting and whatnot a whole archive of creationist media

852
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: all over the United States.

853
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 3: Oh, is that dinos we're breathing fire? It sure is, Molly,

854
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 3: wait a second for that one. I don't care.

855
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: His main business is himself. But he basically sees, if

856
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: I film these presentations I've been giving it churches and

857
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: edit them into videos and sell those videos or let

858
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: people you know, eventually stream them online, that will expand

859
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: my audience. And there's ways to get money out of

860
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 2: those people. Right, I'm gonna pinish a clip from one

861
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: of his Yeah, he pivots to video. He does it first. Right,

862
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: here's one of his doctor Dino videos.

863
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 4: Now, this one is called a parasofis had a weird

864
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 4: bump on the back of his head. Some people think

865
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,959
Speaker 4: the parasol office was able to breathe fire. Who thinks

866
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 4: that because that bump on his head was hollow and

867
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 4: it's connected to his sinuses. I don't know about that,

868
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 4: but interesting theory.

869
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: It is not.

870
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: I like the parasol office. But there's one thing about

871
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 4: him I do not like so and I'm going to

872
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 4: tell you about that in just a minute.

873
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: Okay, The whole speech is like that, he like introduced

874
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 2: a dinosaur, usually get things wrong about it, and then

875
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: be like, I like this guy except for one thing

876
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: about him, and then he'll move on to the next dinosaur.

877
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 3: He didn't accept the Jesus as his Lord and savior.

878
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: That is kind of where we're going here. But I

879
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 2: do want to let you know, folks, there are not

880
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 2: fire breathing No, no one thinks there were dinosaurs that

881
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: breathed fire. That's not a thing that science believes. That's

882
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: not a thing anyone has ever suggested, except for mediac phoven.

883
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

884
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: I think this is part of like you get some

885
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: of these weird creationist guys trying to where like both

886
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: dinosaurs and myths about dragons together. Maybe that's where that

887
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: comes out of. But anyway, here's how that whole speech

888
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 2: thing culminates, right when he finally explains what he doesn't

889
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: the one thing he doesn't like about all of these

890
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 2: great dinosaurs.

891
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: The one thing about all the dinosaurs I do not like.

892
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 4: I don't like the way every time you pick up

893
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 4: a book about dinosaurs, you open up to the first

894
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 4: page and guess what it says, tillions of years ago

895
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: dinosaurs lived on the earth.

896
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 3: Man, that is not true.

897
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 4: What you have to do, you have to get a

898
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 4: little buzzer in your brain and whenever somebody tells you

899
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 4: something that's not true, he say.

900
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: Man, not true, I'm gonna have to go. Man, I

901
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: can't hear, because that's not fair to the dinosaur. I

902
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: like this dinosaur, except I don't like this one thing

903
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: about him.

904
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: The dinosaurs never said, They never concept of age, as

905
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: far as we're aware, didn't write that book.

906
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: Just wondering. Do you think that the costume department on

907
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: Friends based Ross Guelers like work clothes off of Kent?

908
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they're both dinosaur scientists.

909
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: Well, and I also I refuse to consume anything either

910
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 2: of them make outside of their wheelhouse. Right, Ross is

911
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 2: not allowed to be Ross from Friends. I'm very angry.

912
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 2: I watched I watched some insane television show. I think

913
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: it was about like climate change and ship it's on

914
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: I think it might have been Netflix. And Ross from

915
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 2: Friends is in a couple episodes because it like veers from.

916
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: I've never seen him in anything but Friends. Does he

917
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: still work?

918
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: He was?

919
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: Yes?

920
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: Apparently, yes he was, he was. He was. He played

921
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: Robert Kardashian in the o J series.

922
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: There's the It's this, It's this show that sounds like

923
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: a fever dream. It starts with like like climate conferences

924
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 2: about like the impending disaster, and then like you know,

925
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: the disaster really gets going in earnest and suddenly everything

926
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: pivots to being I thought it was going to go

927
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: like be hardcore like Zionist, but actually the point it

928
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 2: seems to be making is that the real Jewish homeland

929
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: is Miami, and there's like a synagogue they're trying to

930
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: save in southern Florida from flooding, and Ross from Friends

931
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: as to bribe congressman to do it.

932
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 3: It gets arrested.

933
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: Is it called Little Death?

934
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: No, no, no, It's one of the weirdest shows I've

935
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 2: ever seen.

936
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 3: I don't think that's real.

937
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: It felt like a fever dream. And then the entire

938
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: show changes after the Ross.

939
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: From Friends port called Little Death.

940
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 2: It is definitely not called Little Death. Then it's called Extrapolations.

941
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: Oh then what else Sissy ben in it's not on

942
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: his IMDb.

943
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 3: I think he might have funded the fucker. It's weird.

944
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: He's weird in it.

945
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: A few years back it, Yeah, I got it.

946
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 3: It is an off putting show. I found it off.

947
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 1: Oh my god, John Snow is in it.

948
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 2: John Snow is in fact in it. Yeah, a lot

949
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: of guys are in it. Edward Norton's a big part

950
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: in it.

951
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I'll do this all my own time. Sorry.

952
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 3: I was like, what a cast.

953
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: It's a baffling show, Like, are you a guy who

954
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: will always be known as playing one guy on a

955
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: TV show? We'll cast you in this.

956
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 2: We'll cast you. Edward Norton is more than that, not

957
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: much more.

958
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: He's Fight Club.

959
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: He's in the only movie about the shitty town in Oklahoma.

960
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 2: I grew up in Leaves of Grass.

961
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 3: Good movie. It's also got one of the guys from

962
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 3: Deadwood in it. Check it out.

963
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: He plays himself and his twin brother. Anyway, So Kent,

964
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: oh dinosaur, Yeah, we're talking about dinosaur.

965
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: We got ross from Brinded.

966
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: We got ross from Friended. You can't stop when you

967
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: get when you get a little dose of vitamin R.

968
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: So anyway, As a public speaker, Kent has a whole

969
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: host of lions. He's got locked and loaded to get

970
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: an audience's attention, and one of his favorite lines is

971
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 2: one drop of water will cover the whole world if

972
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: you spread it real thin. Kent states this as if

973
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 2: it's a scientific fact.

974
00:47:57,719 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 3: Don't worry.

975
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 2: I found a again, because there's a lot of guys

976
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: who are obsessed with Kent. I found a crazy person

977
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: who seems to know math, who did a breakdown and

978
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 2: calculates that this Kent is off by roughly a factor

979
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 2: of one trillion here, which sounds right. I can't check

980
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: that math.

981
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 3: I don't know how to spread atoms. I don't know

982
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: how big those are.

983
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, it does seem like that would have to

984
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 2: be off by about a trillion or so. Honestly, that

985
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 2: might be low.

986
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: Guess if you're talking if you're talking about like baptismal water,

987
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: I think it's more of a metaphor.

988
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's But he also there's nothing that's

989
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 2: a metaphor for Kent. You can't have metaphors.

990
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:32,919
Speaker 3: In Kent's world.

991
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: Everything has to be literally true, otherwise his entire conception

992
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: of reality collapses. Kent also claims that birds are not

993
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: descended from dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are also big, cold blooded lizards

994
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: that live in Eden, which we know they're not. The

995
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: reality is that dinosaurs really have very little to do

996
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 2: with modern reptiles. But Kent has to deny the sweep

997
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: of time necessary to allow birds to come about. So

998
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: he claims, for example, that the Triceratops is just a

999
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 2: Jackson's chameleon that got extra big because there was more

1000
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: oxygen back then. Like if you were to hook at

1001
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 2: Jackson's chameleon up to an O two tag, you could

1002
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 2: get to be huge.

1003
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: Why are we doing that? There is some some scientific

1004
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 3: credence to the idea that, like the amount of oxygen

1005
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: in the atmosphere. Sex used to be bigger because they

1006
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: break through pores in their skins, so they could be

1007
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 3: larger because of the different amount of But they're the

1008
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 3: same insects, you know, And it's like.

1009
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 5: You can't just if you just like you can't just

1010
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 5: make a common big oxygen I'm gonna I'm gonna put

1011
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 5: a pet chameleon inside of a hyperbaric chamber and I'm

1012
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 5: gonna grow.

1013
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to one.

1014
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: Like. Look, if it worked that way, I would be

1015
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: psyched that the creationists were right, because then we'd have

1016
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 2: Triceratopsis to ride and that would be worth it. I'll

1017
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: lead a lot of crow to write a tri Serratos.

1018
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 3: Only inside your special oxygen chamber.

1019
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would have probably have to keep the chamber.

1020
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 2: We just make the world a hyperbaric chamber. Perfect.

1021
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: This guy is just Christian science Alex Jones. It's very weird. Yeah, yeah,

1022
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 1: he's a little worse than does he start selling products.

1023
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: He's already selling products he's got.

1024
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 3: I'm interested in the.

1025
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: Merch videos and t shirts and toys, and obviously, like

1026
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: a lot of creationists, one of the things that helps

1027
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: stitch Kent's beliefs together is the existence of cryptids.

1028
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 3: Right.

1029
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: If the Lockness Monster exists, right, it means that dinosaurs

1030
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: didn't die out all that long.

1031
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 3: Ago, exactly right.

1032
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Now, I know what a lot of you

1033
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: are asking at this point. Kent is clearly a ridiculous asshole.

1034
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: But is he really noteworthy? And I assure you he is.

1035
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about his his real evil shit

1036
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: in part two, but I want to start by laying

1037
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,320
Speaker 2: out how much fucking money he makes doing this grift.

1038
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 2: In two thousand and three alone, Kent earned more than

1039
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 2: one point six million dollars in doctor Dino merchandise sales.

1040
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: From nineteen ninety five to nineteen ninety seven, his income

1041
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: tax bill alone was more than half a million dollars.

1042
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: And we know that because Kent was a tax protester

1043
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 2: and refused to pay his taxes for about thirty years.

1044
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, of course he's a tax protester. I

1045
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 3: feel like, if you're truly only committed to God, is

1046
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 3: that like its own kind of sovereign citizen.

1047
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: He is a sovereign citizen, Molly, That's where this is headed.

1048
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 2: But yes, also he's his own kind of Christian sovereign

1049
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: citizen too. He does both. So in two thousand and one,

1050
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: he creates his first Bible based theme park, dinosauran venture

1051
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 2: land tagline where dinosaurs and the Bible meet. I've heard

1052
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: these described as being built in his backyard in Pensacola,

1053
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 2: but his backyard is like seven acres, so it's not

1054
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 2: like tiny. The park has an indoor science center filled

1055
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: with illustrated versions of the arguments Kent makes in his lectures.

1056
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: There's also an outdoor space with what can crudely be

1057
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: described as rides. One I've heard of is the jump Asaurus,

1058
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 2: which is just a trampoline next to a basketball hoop.

1059
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: Kids have a minute to make all the baskets they can,

1060
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: which will teach them that they have to be coordinated

1061
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 2: in order to spread God's message.

1062
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 3: No that's not said skid, that's nonsense.

1063
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: That's not all right. That's a trampoline next to a

1064
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: basketball court.

1065
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 5: This is.

1066
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 3: No I mean, look, I'm all for.

1067
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: Children risking their lives in dangerous games, but also, you know,

1068
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: they should be more fun than that. So for a

1069
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 2: while in the early aughts, some skeptic publications did a

1070
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: decent business making fun of Dinosaur Action Land. But what

1071
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 2: actually brought Kent down wasn't being wrong about everything, because

1072
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 2: that never hurts people's career. It was tax fraud. To

1073
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 2: describe what happened, and again, folks, this is a constant

1074
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 2: lesson in crime. Do whatever unethical shit you can get

1075
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,879
Speaker 2: away with most evil things in the United States as

1076
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: long as you pay your taxes like just and the

1077
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: irs is not picky. You know, they don't care if

1078
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: you're a drug dealer. Just pay your taxes and you

1079
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: will avoid the easiest way to destroy your life as

1080
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: a person who is breaking the law.

1081
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 3: Because they'll get you in the end.

1082
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: They always say will, they will. They're actually know what

1083
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 2: they're doing. To describe what happened, next, I want to

1084
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 2: read a quote from a book by Professor Samuel Brunson

1085
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: called God and the IRS, which is about the difficulty

1086
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 2: the IRS has dealing with the religious right. It actually

1087
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 2: sounds very interesting. It's like seventy dollars for the kindle

1088
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: edition because it's a textbook, so I have not read

1089
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 2: the whole thing, but I found excerpts that yeah, because

1090
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: there's just a portion of it that deals specifically with Kent.

1091
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 3: Quote.

1092
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 2: Though creationism was Hoven's professional passion, it was far from

1093
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: his only interest. Hovind was also deeply dedicated to not

1094
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 2: paying taxes. Hovind was as dedicated a tax protester as

1095
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: in it he did not file a single federal tax

1096
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 2: return between nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety six. The

1097
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 2: IRS noticed and demanded that Hoven provide them with certain

1098
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 2: financial records. He refused. In fact, in his attempts to

1099
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 2: impede the IRS's investigation, Hovind went so far as to

1100
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 2: file a lawsuit against the IRS, demanding that the court

1101
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 2: order the IRS and it's a by court order, demanding

1102
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: that the court order the IRS and its agents stopped

1103
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 2: contacting and harassing him, and that it ordered the IRS

1104
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 2: to stay off his property. So, you know, taxes are complicated,

1105
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 2: but the IRS is a simple organization. They just want

1106
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 2: their money, and they've spent enough time as the bugbear

1107
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: of the Republican Party that they are leery of having

1108
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: public fights with religious conservative tax protesters, so they don't

1109
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: go hard after again. He stops paying his taxes in

1110
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: eighty nine, and they don't really come for him until

1111
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, you know. And there's back and

1112
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: forths going on before then, in like the late nineties

1113
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 2: and early two thousands, but they don't really go for

1114
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 2: Bore until he makes it very clear that there is

1115
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: no other way for them to resolve this, right.

1116
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 3: I mean, he he could have just all this time

1117
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 3: but just been doing his taxes, but like doing them

1118
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 3: wrong and paying like ten dollars would have been fine,

1119
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 3: and they wouldn't and they wouldn't have wanted to come

1120
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 3: after a church. But if you go out in public

1121
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: and you say I don't have to pay my taxes

1122
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: because God said so.

1123
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 2: Right, right, And the big mistake he makes series Kent

1124
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: stakes the I r S's hesitation to go immediately nuclear

1125
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: on him as an actual victory. And so during this

1126
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 2: kind of awkward period where he's fighting back and forth

1127
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 2: with them, but they're not really coming after him, he

1128
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 2: decides he's like hacked the system, and he starts lecturing

1129
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: and selling book and video guides to not paying taxes.

1130
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 3: Oh, they love those times when you do that. That's

1131
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,720
Speaker 3: the easy way to make free. There's this whole industry

1132
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 3: of guys who will like sell you their system for like, oh,

1133
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 3: if you just do this one secret loophole. Yeah, it's

1134
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 3: not real, it's not real. I think the.

1135
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 2: Easiest way to make a lot of money doing unethical

1136
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: things would be to like become that kind of guy,

1137
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 2: but pay your taxes scrupulously, like run a business on

1138
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: how people can avoid taxes.

1139
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 3: But actually it's still funny to sell that shit.

1140
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well that's what that's what's

1141
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 2: going to happen to kin. So some of his new

1142
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 2: beliefs come to be based on the arguments of what

1143
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: are called sovereign citizens.

1144
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1145
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 2: I think there's a decent level of like at this point,

1146
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: kind of background osmosis information the average person has about

1147
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: sovereign citizens. But in brief, sovereign citizens are people who

1148
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 2: believe that the arcana of tax law and constitutional law

1149
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 2: is a magic spell to make the government go away.

1150
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,280
Speaker 2: Right if you figure out the right way to cite

1151
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: legal precedent, then you can make the federal government not

1152
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 2: in charge of you, you know, which it doesn't really work.

1153
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 2: Sometimes the law can be like magic, but it never

1154
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: makes you not a subject of the state because it

1155
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 2: has a lot of guns. Ultimately, I've only ever.

1156
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 3: Seen it in person once, but I was sitting through

1157
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 3: docket call and this woman had some sort of like

1158
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 3: relatively minor traffic ticket that really got blown out of

1159
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 3: proportion because she refused to produce a driver's license. And so,

1160
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 3: you know, she comes up before the judge and she says, well,

1161
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 3: I do not contract with the Department of Motor Vehicles,

1162
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 3: and she just like every time the judge asked her

1163
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,439
Speaker 3: a question or tried to get her to see something,

1164
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 3: she just kept saying, I do not contract with the

1165
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: Department of Vehicles. And it's like the judges like, it

1166
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter if you do. No one really cares.

1167
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: Lady, I don't contract with the fucking us with the

1168
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: Department of Homeland Security. But that's not going to stop

1169
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 2: him from coming after me if I do certain things,

1170
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: you know, like you don't have to contract with the

1171
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 2: ATF to have to obey the rules They put in place.

1172
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 3: I do not contract with the Internal Revenue Service.

1173
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't care. They've got a lot of guns. Ultimately,

1174
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: it does come down to that.

1175
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: I kind of love that she was like, that's my line.

1176
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, gotcha.

1177
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: I mean she got that from a guy like Kent, right,

1178
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 2: because absolutely kin gets Obviously I don't know who he

1179
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: gets brought into sovereign citizen. It's kind of like a

1180
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 2: decentralized cult ideology. But he starts spreading it too, like

1181
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: after he gets into it. Right, And here's a quote

1182
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 2: from one of the videos he puts out during this

1183
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: period of time that gives you an idea of how

1184
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: these people talk. I do not have or use a

1185
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: social Security number. Actually, no real person has a Social

1186
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: Security number. Notice on your Social Security card that your

1187
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 2: name is spelled with all capital letters. This designates the

1188
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: straw man business trust or corporation, not a person. Right,

1189
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 2: so you can you can sue or imprison the all

1190
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 2: caps straw man that my card is for. But that's

1191
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 2: not really me. So I don't have to go to

1192
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: prison for all of these crimes. Again, man, even if

1193
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 2: you were right, which you're not, this is nonsense, Like,

1194
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,080
Speaker 2: there's not actually legal president is there. Even if there was,

1195
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 2: they all still have the guns. That's the like, as

1196
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: an anarchist, I also don't believe in the legitimacy of

1197
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: the state, but I recognize that they have more guns

1198
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 2: than me, you know, like ultimately, yeah, I'm going to

1199
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: try not to get them too angry at me because

1200
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to get shot. I don't want to

1201
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 2: get a ruby ridge on my ass or something, you know,

1202
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 2: like the all.

1203
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 3: Caps and the all lowercase version of you neither wise bulletproof. Yeah.

1204
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: The one where I agree with them is that like, yeah,

1205
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: I mean the government is a big mafia, right, and

1206
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: I don't think it's very good. But you know, I

1207
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 2: recognize the reality that they don't care. If I can

1208
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: quote certain things like there's no magic spell to make

1209
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 2: them go away.

1210
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 3: Pocket constitution, Yeah.

1211
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, your pocket Constitution's not going to save you on

1212
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 2: this stuff. In nineteen ninety eight, Kent filed a document

1213
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 2: with his local Clerk of Court where he claimed to

1214
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 2: be a sovereign citizen, not a citizen of the corporate

1215
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 2: government he believed was legally in control.

1216
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 3: So not real. The notary was like, I mean, I'll

1217
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 3: stamp it.

1218
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 2: But quote this, in Hoven's eyes, severed all ties between

1219
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: Kent Hovend and all caps Kent Hoven. In two thousand

1220
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: and one, nevertheless, he signed Kent Ehovend above a Kin

1221
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 2: Ehoven cap all caps signature light. So you're not even

1222
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: consistent about your nonsense.

1223
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:44,959
Speaker 3: Kent gotta file a new form.

1224
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: Kent declared he and his wife immune to all previously

1225
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 2: incurred debts, including the money they owed to the irs,

1226
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 2: by revoking their power of attorney with the Clerk of Courts.

1227
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: They argued that Social Security was a Ponzi scheme which

1228
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 2: covered up the factor of the US government, or in

1229
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 2: their eyes, the government that ran corporation or whatever that

1230
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 2: ran the US government was bankrupt. They referred to themselves

1231
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: as natural citizens of America, which is sovereign citizen language

1232
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 2: that basically means I am a citizen of the literal land,

1233
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 2: not this fake thing masquerading as a government. Now, that's

1234
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: all pretty standard sob sit ideology. What's interesting to me is,

1235
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 2: in all the years after he filed this paperwork, he

1236
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: starts to mold his ideology and begins packaging it in

1237
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 2: new ways to audiences full of Christians who are just

1238
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 2: sure that can't legally be required to pay taxes for

1239
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 2: other people to use the roads right. Kent's method of

1240
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 2: justifying this was novel and a lot easier to sell

1241
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 2: to a wide audience than the kind of arcane sovereign

1242
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 2: citizen mythology that he buys into. Here's Professor Bronson again.

1243
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 2: He ultimately rests his belief that he owes no taxes,

1244
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 2: at least to the extent anything besides bald greed underlies

1245
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: that belief. On his status as a Christian and a minister.

1246
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 2: He believes that something about being a religious believer makes

1247
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: him different from the vast majority of his fellow citizens.

1248
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,600
Speaker 2: This difference, he believes, is it self sufficient to excuse

1249
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 2: him from paying taxes. That is, in Hoven's mind, there

1250
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: is something about the economics of religious practice that materially

1251
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: alters the secular assumptions that underlie the tax law. Hoven's

1252
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: understanding of the difference that frees him from the clutches

1253
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 2: of the taxation that his fellow citizens face comprises two parts,

1254
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: one descriptive and one normative. Descriptively, he argues that he

1255
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 2: is a minister, and as a minister, everything he owns

1256
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 2: belongs to God. Normatively, he argues that he should not

1257
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 2: be subject to earthly taxation on money he earns doing

1258
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: God's work. True, and this is there's still a lot

1259
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 2: of people who will argue this in different ways, and

1260
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 2: they get away with that actually a lot of the time, right,

1261
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 2: Like churches do a lot of shit, they shouldn't be

1262
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: aga if he.

1263
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 3: Just hired an accountant, If he hire real accountant and

1264
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 3: did a little paperwork, half of that could be true.

1265
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: He could get away with a lot of his tax

1266
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: burden and the iris wouldn't be willing to fight him

1267
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 2: on it.

1268
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 3: But he just refused to do the paperwork.

1269
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: I think the professor gets it right. He's just too greedy, right,

1270
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 2: Like he's not. He's a smarter man would recogniz that. Like, well,

1271
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 2: I'm a greedy asshole, but my greed has a limit,

1272
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 2: and like I don't want to. I know the government

1273
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 2: can only be pushed so far.

1274
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 3: Right, Like Jim Baker at least pretended to pay some taxes.

1275
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 2: He still did go to prison, by the way, where Kids'

1276
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 2: story's at it, But Molly, that's all gonna come in

1277
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: part two. Do you have anything to plug here? At

1278
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: the end of part one.

1279
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 3: Oh, gosh, I don't really, I don't really have anything

1280
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 3: to plug. I'm on the internet.

1281
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 2: It sucks on there, Molly's on the internet. We're raising

1282
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: funds again here behind the Bastards for the Portland Diaper Bank,

1283
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 2: which provides diapers for free to people who do not

1284
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 2: have enough money but have babies. You can go to

1285
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 2: go fund me Portland Diaper Bank, behind the Bastards Portland

1286
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 2: Diaper Bank. Go fund me and you will find the

1287
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: new GoFundMe for that and you can donate money to

1288
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 2: it and help out some people who don't have enough

1289
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: money for diapers, which is a good thing.

1290
01:02:54,200 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 3: Diapers cost a fortune. Surprisingly are just crazy for babies. Babyhower. Yeah,

1291
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 3: like how are they getting away with this? I don't know,

1292
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think big diaper, big diaper.

1293
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really. That's the new military industrial complex.

1294
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 2: After Vietnam. They turned all of that body bag material

1295
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 2: into diapers and they're just making more money than ever.

1296
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 3: That's my and we had.

1297
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media have a couple of new shows that

1298
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 1: you should check out. The first is Offline, hosted by

1299
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: ed Zitron. Once or twice a week. They show about

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Speaker 1: the tech industry and tech world and all things happening there.

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Speaker 1: It is wonderful. And we also have a new new

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Speaker 1: weekly show hosted by Jamie Loftus called Sixteenth Minute of Fame.

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Speaker 1: It's all about the Internet's main characters and what happened

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01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: to them after they went viral. So check that out

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01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: and everything else for cool Zone at cool Zone Media. Molly,

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01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: you're at Socialist dog Mom on Twitter at Craig and

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Speaker 1: that's me. Did I forget anything else? Starboard? Did we

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Speaker 1: do all the things?

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Speaker 3: Nope?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Yes, great bye, Go ride a dinosaur.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

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Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.