Speaker 1: And the path really to success, in my opinion, is
Speaker 1: to be able to align those Okay, what am I
Speaker 1: feeling and then to reflect intellectually. Is that the right
Speaker 1: thing if I'm going to Hey everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
Speaker 1: Thanks to each and every single one of you that
Speaker 1: come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now.
Speaker 1: I know you're here because you love learning about new insights, ideas,
Speaker 1: principles that can transform your life, things that you can
Speaker 1: put into practice, Ideas that you can actually take into
Speaker 1: your life, apply them and see changes in transformation happen.
Speaker 1: Today's guest is one of the few guests who's been
Speaker 1: on not just once, not just twice, but a third time.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's more than three guests out of
Speaker 1: our entire library that have been on as many times
Speaker 1: as today's guest, and I couldn't be more excited to
Speaker 1: talk to him. The first time I spoke to him.
Speaker 1: We're speaking about his book Principles, an incredible book. If
Speaker 1: you haven't read it, highly recommend that you get it.
Speaker 1: Next time we spoke, we spoke about a second book,
Speaker 1: Changing World Order, and the third one this interview we're
Speaker 1: talking about his new journal called My Principles. I've been
Speaker 1: flicking through this over the past few days since I've
Speaker 1: had it, and it has given me so much self
Speaker 1: awareness that I already believe I have, but the opportunity
Speaker 1: to reflect on it again and again consistently makes a
Speaker 1: huge difference. Of course, I'm talking about the one and
Speaker 1: only Ray Daria. Ray. Thank you for being here, Thank
Speaker 1: you for doing this pleasure all of these times. I
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, it's a joy to see you. After
Speaker 1: three years. We did one digital into it, maybe even two.
Speaker 1: I think we did in the middle of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: Maybe this is your fourth time. Actually, maybe I'm completely wrong,
Speaker 1: but either way, I'm just always grateful to be in
Speaker 1: your presence. I learned so much from you. I remember.
Speaker 1: I want to share this because the first time I
Speaker 1: met you, i'd heard so much about you, and you know,
Speaker 1: your reputation precedes you and you have this, you know,
Speaker 1: huge brand beyond just I'm not talking about brand in
Speaker 1: terms of social media. I think in the business world,
Speaker 1: and I had no idea what you were going to
Speaker 1: be like, and I was I was nervous. I was.
Speaker 1: It was three years ago, but that was early in
Speaker 1: my career of doing this, and I was thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: I was like, what's he going to be like? I
Speaker 1: have no idea, like, you know, how should I behave
Speaker 1: around it? And then you came in and you were
Speaker 1: the most charming, disarming individual that i'd met. You're so
Speaker 1: comfortable to be around. I was telling my whole team that,
Speaker 1: I was like you you forget everything in your presence.
Speaker 1: You make everyone feel very comfortable, very respected, very very wanted,
Speaker 1: and very valued. And I think that's a huge gift.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to say that because I probably have
Speaker 1: not told you that, but yes, two years ago, its
Speaker 1: very nervous. Well, there are times where there's u and
Speaker 1: a spree of core that there are similar values that
Speaker 1: you're going after similar things, and you can also play
Speaker 1: jazz together. It's almost like when we're right now, it's
Speaker 1: almost like we can be playing together. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: and we have that, so I have the same respect
Speaker 1: and we could, so let's go play some jazz. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. I was going to ask you, do
Speaker 1: you the first time you ever felt fear meeting someone,
Speaker 1: because I know you talk a lot about the truth
Speaker 1: and fearlessness, but Yeah, was there ever a time when
Speaker 1: you remember meeting a mentor a business person, a person
Speaker 1: in your world where you felt a sense of fear
Speaker 1: and how you dealt with that. My reactions tend to
Speaker 1: be more alike excitement. There's a nervous excitement. Yes, nervous
Speaker 1: excitement is probably the right way. Yeah, yes, because I'm
Speaker 1: walking in and I'm thinking okay, wow, okay. But it's
Speaker 1: a little bit like life, you know, the question at
Speaker 1: certain moments is that excitement For some people? It's excitement.
Speaker 1: For some people it's fear. And it's not just at
Speaker 1: those moments of meeting somebody like that. It happens a
Speaker 1: lot in life, you know. It's almost ambiguity, a taste
Speaker 1: for adventure. I think I'm more of the taste for adventure,
Speaker 1: So I will nervously go in, maybe with some palpitations
Speaker 1: and feeling more excitement at it, Like I feel excited
Speaker 1: about this. I think that's a great refinement. I would
Speaker 1: say I feel the same way. It's a nervous excitement.
Speaker 1: That's something special you have. You have this ability to
Speaker 1: be really clear about words, read really clear about emotions
Speaker 1: when you read your work, when you're in your work,
Speaker 1: was clarity something that you always found easy or how
Speaker 1: did you develop that ability to be so clear about
Speaker 1: the language you use even just what you did now
Speaker 1: it was like I used a word and actually I
Speaker 1: feel this, And I'm like, yeah, actually I feel that too,
Speaker 1: So tell me where that refinement came. I honestly don't know.
Speaker 1: I have a lousy rope memory. That means, I mean
Speaker 1: really rope memory means like, if it doesn't have a
Speaker 1: reason for being what it is, like a phone number
Speaker 1: or name or anything like that, like I'm terrible, and
Speaker 1: if it and in school terrible, you know, memorize this man.
Speaker 1: But if it's within a context and there's a story
Speaker 1: orhere there's something, I have a superb memory of how
Speaker 1: that transpires. Well, I think I was born that way,
Speaker 1: and so by being born that way, I'm wondering does
Speaker 1: that enter into this particular question. And then I think
Speaker 1: my job requires me to be thinking in terms of
Speaker 1: fact sort of clarity. But I really don't know. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean it's fascinating for us to at least learn
Speaker 1: that and perceive that in you. But it seems like
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of reverse engineering as well to
Speaker 1: create the principles in the first place, like observing success,
Speaker 1: observing failure, observing wins. It seems like there's been no
Speaker 1: you're putting your finger on it. You know. What I
Speaker 1: did is I got into habit at a very early
Speaker 1: age that whenever I would make a decision, I would
Speaker 1: pause and reflect, particularly if it was a painful decision
Speaker 1: or a painful moment, I pause and reflect. I have
Speaker 1: a principal pain plus reflection equals progress. And then I
Speaker 1: would write down my reflections. That's why the journal. I
Speaker 1: would literally use a journal. This journal, by the way,
Speaker 1: is connected to an app that facilitates that. But and
Speaker 1: that's what I want to pass along. And I think
Speaker 1: that that helped my clarity because at that moment of
Speaker 1: stepping back, when there is greater clarity, when there's calmness
Speaker 1: after the storm maybe or the excitement of the adventure,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, that you're reflecting on that reflection, writing
Speaker 1: it down and thinking about it and thinking, am I clear?
Speaker 1: I think helps my I know helps my clarity a lot. Wow.
Speaker 1: I remember a few years ago when you went to something,
Speaker 1: you know, extremely tragic. I emailed you just just a
Speaker 1: note of love and support, and you quoted that back
Speaker 1: to me then in an email, and I was just
Speaker 1: blown away by that, because I have quoted pain plus
Speaker 1: reflection equals progress by you a million times. I think
Speaker 1: I repeat that in every keynote I give because I
Speaker 1: think it's such a powerful it's such a powerful principle
Speaker 1: because as soon as you remove the word reflection, progress
Speaker 1: disappears and all you're left with is pain. And when
Speaker 1: you repeated that back to me in that moment, I thought, Wow,
Speaker 1: Like to remember that principle in this moment requires so
Speaker 1: much just so much depth. And I was truly blown
Speaker 1: away by that because it's one thing writing it, and
Speaker 1: it's another thing living in the incident that you're referring
Speaker 1: to is the worst thing that could ever have happened
Speaker 1: to me. I would have rather died than have it happened.
Speaker 1: Was the loss of my son. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: meditation helps a lot, right, So meditation and reflection, because
Speaker 1: whenever there's pain, there's a reality. It tells you something
Speaker 1: about reality, and it tells you something about how to
Speaker 1: deal with reality. The reflections. Yeah, life is life. It
Speaker 1: comes at you. It is reality. You can't change it, Okay,
Speaker 1: you can influence it. Based on your reactions. But you
Speaker 1: have to deal with it and have to deal with
Speaker 1: it in a calm way. So meditation helps you be calm.
Speaker 1: It helps you see the clarity and then move beyond
Speaker 1: that to deal with the circumstance as well. I think,
Speaker 1: how did you come to accept that? I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people struggle with accepting that life's going to
Speaker 1: come at you, it's going to do what it wants.
Speaker 1: I think we have a desire for control. And when
Speaker 1: someone looks at someone as successful as you, they would
Speaker 1: infer that, oh, Ray probably is good at controlling things.
Speaker 1: He's probably good at making things happen. What is that
Speaker 1: balance or what have you discovered about the idea of
Speaker 1: like control and acceptance? Like where where do you live
Speaker 1: in between that space? Well? I think you know keeps
Speaker 1: coming back the serenity prayer. God, give me the serenity
Speaker 1: to accept that which I can't control, and give me
Speaker 1: the power to control that which I can, and the
Speaker 1: wisdom to tell the difference. And I think that that
Speaker 1: really guides it. You know, what is your best and
Speaker 1: so it is the combination of acceptance but also the
Speaker 1: desire to influence, right, and so yeah, and if you're
Speaker 1: going to influence, you have to have that equanimity, you know,
Speaker 1: like a ninja. You know there are things coming at
Speaker 1: you and you can't be hijacked by your emotions and
Speaker 1: the smartness of your move will determine the outcomes. And
Speaker 1: how do you learn that? Because it produces better results
Speaker 1: and the other one produces bad results. And it's like,
Speaker 1: do you learn anything, It's the same way you learn
Speaker 1: don't put your hand on a hot stove. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I love that because I think we live in the
Speaker 1: world right now where it's like is it this way
Speaker 1: or that way? It's always is either or, and you're saying, well, no,
Speaker 1: it's both. Right. We need both acceptance and control. We
Speaker 1: need both desires, and I think often we get lost thinking, right,
Speaker 1: it's one or the other, you can only choose one.
Speaker 1: And in all either of those cases, it's reality. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're dealing with reality, so to go above it. It
Speaker 1: is so important you know, here I am in this situation,
Speaker 1: and what do I do? What resources can I use?
Speaker 1: Who might I speak with for help? All of that
Speaker 1: helps you navigate because you still have to do with
Speaker 1: the reality. Yes, absolutely absolutely. When when did you we're
Speaker 1: doing much my principle as the journal, and I know,
Speaker 1: like you said, there's an app attached to it. And
Speaker 1: for anyone who's wondering why this journal is different, there's
Speaker 1: so many reasons why it's different. A because it has
Speaker 1: better prompts than most journals I've seen. But it also
Speaker 1: has this QR code that kind of you can scan
Speaker 1: on every page. And so whether it's doing the assessment
Speaker 1: or whether in this case it's what's a case study
Speaker 1: of this principle in action, it's it's an interactive journal, right,
Speaker 1: which is very different. I think we have lots of
Speaker 1: journals where we write with a pendant, you're jotting down
Speaker 1: your thoughts. But here, if you can see, there's you
Speaker 1: exercises included as well. When did you I'm intrigued, when
Speaker 1: did your personal journaling practice start ray? Or about twenty
Speaker 1: five years ago? But I want to say that by
Speaker 1: being it gives you sort of an option. Do I
Speaker 1: want to have what I'm doing saved online so then
Speaker 1: I can play around with it? In other words, I
Speaker 1: got the data. So now once I've got the data
Speaker 1: online rather than on piece of paper, you can do
Speaker 1: things with it. But sometimes that piece of paper. But
Speaker 1: I started about I guess about twenty five, maybe thirty
Speaker 1: years ago. I can't tell you. I started. When I
Speaker 1: started build my company, it was a point of having
Speaker 1: sixty seven people. I remember it because every holiday season
Speaker 1: I would you know, I started my company from nothing,
Speaker 1: so I had two people, four people. Well, okay, we
Speaker 1: got up to sixty seven. I remember it was sixty
Speaker 1: seven because it was holiday season, and every holiday I
Speaker 1: would shop for their individual gifts and I'd write each
Speaker 1: individual law notes. And that was then long enough take
Speaker 1: took me long enough to realize that I really need
Speaker 1: to communicate better with them. I also journaled because I
Speaker 1: needed to write down my decision rules for the markets
Speaker 1: so that I could go back test them. So it's
Speaker 1: a very great power if you can know what your
Speaker 1: criteria would be and then say how would they have
Speaker 1: worked in the past, how would they have worked in
Speaker 1: this country or that country, Because then you're not just
Speaker 1: making decisions, you have perspective on making the decisions. So
Speaker 1: those two things together got me into journaling. I wanted
Speaker 1: the world, my world, my people I worked with. We
Speaker 1: went up to fifteen hundred people. How do you communicate
Speaker 1: in a really good way? And it wasn't just journaling,
Speaker 1: but then also I would combine the journaling with videos
Speaker 1: of cases. My culture was to have meaningful work and
Speaker 1: meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency. So what
Speaker 1: we would do is video everything or tape everything for
Speaker 1: everybody to see so that way they could see it.
Speaker 1: And so by taking the principles and putting them together
Speaker 1: with the situations, it was fabulous exposure. So everybody was
Speaker 1: always informed and they were going through like this reality
Speaker 1: TV type experience and that, and then they would give
Speaker 1: answers as they were going through the experience because that
Speaker 1: way they would have that experience, but imagine a reality
Speaker 1: TV experience, but it's your reality around you, and then
Speaker 1: you're making these this input and then that input would
Speaker 1: be able to know what people would think. So we
Speaker 1: found all that experience really well. So we took the journals,
Speaker 1: the journaling of the principles I did, and put that
Speaker 1: together with the videos. And that's that's on this app
Speaker 1: Principles in Action. It's called Principles in Action and it's
Speaker 1: rated four point nine. People love it. But that journaling experience,
Speaker 1: that reflecting and reflecting together and communicating together helps the people,
Speaker 1: bring people together, and it also helps people understand because
Speaker 1: too much stuff is stuck up here. Oh wow, I
Speaker 1: mean just hearing that. There's so many levels of journaling there.
Speaker 1: There's the journaling of, like you're saying, you're writing down
Speaker 1: your principles of the gifts and working with people. Then
Speaker 1: there's the journaling of even videoing everything. I mean, that's journaling, right,
Speaker 1: you're documenting it. It's recorded, it's there to reflect upon.
Speaker 1: The most brilliant part about that, though, is that I
Speaker 1: think today people have started to think journaling just means
Speaker 1: writing down your feelings or writing down your thoughts. We're
Speaker 1: just yeah, this is no no. I mean I think
Speaker 1: it's good to write down your feelings, of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of bringing them forward to look up to and
Speaker 1: to look at them. Is that that's a good exercise.
Speaker 1: Religion is not is a way of life as an
Speaker 1: approach to life. I don't mean the god part of religion.
Speaker 1: I mean just how do you how do you approach life?
Speaker 1: And you get to make that decision, and so it's
Speaker 1: really when you're in a situation, what are you going
Speaker 1: to do in that situation and why? And of course
Speaker 1: it starts with your deeper needs, whatever they may be.
Speaker 1: What do I want out of life? Who do I
Speaker 1: want to be with? What are the directions? Okay, and
Speaker 1: then it comes down to the particulars, and the particulars
Speaker 1: can be aspirational. I'm seventy three years old. I know
Speaker 1: that at this particular part in life, I want to
Speaker 1: pass along the things that are valuable for me. It
Speaker 1: could be on how do you fire a person? How
Speaker 1: how do you treat that person? It could be what
Speaker 1: is your relationship life? And so those are the principles.
Speaker 1: It's not just it's not journaling feelings and so that
Speaker 1: I found that very very valuable. But I'm in a
Speaker 1: new phase of my life in which what I'm going
Speaker 1: to do is get the best principles from everyone. I've
Speaker 1: been passing along my principles and so on, and it's
Speaker 1: been people find it helpful. What a joy it is,
Speaker 1: as you must experience when people say, oh my god,
Speaker 1: you've changed my life. But other people can do it.
Speaker 1: You're doing it. And I say to so many people
Speaker 1: who are really very very successful, people who have never
Speaker 1: written down their principles, that they're going to die with them.
Speaker 1: And if they instead write them down and make them clear.
Speaker 1: Then they're teaching other people because there's a life arc, right.
Speaker 1: We have experiences that things of decisions we make that
Speaker 1: make us successful, okay, including how to deal with pain,
Speaker 1: and so if we write those things down, we can
Speaker 1: help other people. And I think, like, I probably won't
Speaker 1: be around to speak to my grandchildren in the way
Speaker 1: that I would like to then, but they will have
Speaker 1: those principles. And so now my aspiration is to get
Speaker 1: the best principles from wherever they come from. So this
Speaker 1: journal will be accompanied by an ability for people to
Speaker 1: submit their principles, and I'm doing that also with the
Speaker 1: most successful, impactful people in the world. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: going to regrabbing your principles and that'll be put online
Speaker 1: so that people can vote up what are the best principles.
Speaker 1: They could either go to Jay Chetti's principles or they
Speaker 1: can say, all through that vote and what's the best
Speaker 1: principle for the thing I'm dealing with? So that way
Speaker 1: they can look and they say, I am dealing with
Speaker 1: this situation, push the bus, and then what are the
Speaker 1: best principles for that situation wherever they come from, and
Speaker 1: then they could choose their principles and that's I think
Speaker 1: foundational for life. Yeah, that's fantastic, and I know that's
Speaker 1: what you're focusing with this is like you want people
Speaker 1: to come up with their own Yeah, and that's going
Speaker 1: to mean being exposed to a lot of different ideas,
Speaker 1: a lot of different insights to find what they can
Speaker 1: hold on to and then develop themselves. Did you always think?
Speaker 1: You've always said that to me since I've met you,
Speaker 1: And obviously that's been the journey that you're on right now,
Speaker 1: that this phase in your life is giving back and
Speaker 1: sharing the principles you've learned. Have you always had a
Speaker 1: vision for different stages of your life? And I don't
Speaker 1: mean a five year, ten year plan. I mean more
Speaker 1: of like, this is the world I'm walking into? Like,
Speaker 1: is that how you that day? I don't know how
Speaker 1: many years ago I started to realize the arc of life, right.
Speaker 1: There's actually an exercise in the book on the arc
Speaker 1: and life, the arc in life, Yeah, and these are
Speaker 1: all the different things that happened to you at that stage.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a script. And by going down this script,
Speaker 1: one could see where one is and one could see
Speaker 1: the things that are going to come at them. I
Speaker 1: started to realize that in a big picture pit I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it was twenty five thirty years ago,
Speaker 1: I can't say. But then I began to research it
Speaker 1: and understand it a lot greater, and then I began
Speaker 1: to feel it. You feel it again. When you can
Speaker 1: connect intellectually what's happening with subliminally and emotionally what's happening
Speaker 1: to you, you gain perspective and so this, like this phase,
Speaker 1: it's not just an intellectual thing. I don't know. Maybe
Speaker 1: nature has programmed us in our minds to have these
Speaker 1: needs and feelings at certain age. So I know that now,
Speaker 1: like the greatest joy that I can have is to
Speaker 1: help people be successful without me. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: what my time arising is. And I know that my
Speaker 1: greatest joy is not any longer in being successful myself.
Speaker 1: That that was great aid, and it is fine and
Speaker 1: so on, but I don't need more of that, And
Speaker 1: I really my greatest joy is in helping other people.
Speaker 1: And I can't say whether that is a instinctual, how
Speaker 1: much it's instinctual, how much it's cerebral by seeing that
Speaker 1: stage in life, but it's apparent. Yeah, no, absolutely, And
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Speaker 1: Christmas holiday is just around the corner, so I'm super
Speaker 1: excited to spend it with my family. My wife's a
Speaker 1: classic overpacker. Sometimes for a weekend trip she really packs
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff just in case she needs somebody.
Speaker 1: That's why I love using a suitcase from Away because
Speaker 1: it fits everything we need perfectly this holiday season. Gift
Speaker 1: away at awaytravel dot Com forward slash j that's Awaytravel
Speaker 1: dot Com forward slash j. I remember last year, my
Speaker 1: wife and I were doing a charity event to raise
Speaker 1: funds for COVID nineteen in India because we read a
Speaker 1: statistic that one person was dying every five minutes of
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. And I reach out to you, and you
Speaker 1: just gave such a wonderfully generous donation, and so in
Speaker 1: so many ways you're helping and supporting, and it's been
Speaker 1: so beautiful to see you're doing something. We were talking
Speaker 1: about this just before we started filming, but this idea
Speaker 1: of like coaching and mentorship, right what you're saying is
Speaker 1: you're trying to preserve this coaching and mentorship for your
Speaker 1: grand creds, great grandkids, everyone else's grandkids and great grandkids
Speaker 1: as well that will have access to this. And journaling
Speaker 1: is someone that we see so many greats did as well.
Speaker 1: It's a practice that has stood the test of time.
Speaker 1: There are two schools of thought Some entrepreneurs believe that
Speaker 1: mentors and coaches are a huge integral part of their life.
Speaker 1: I know that I've had spiritual mentors, financial mentors, career mentors,
Speaker 1: other mentors in every area of my life. I see
Speaker 1: you as a mentor. On the other end, there are
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs who believe they're self made. That you don't need mentors,
Speaker 1: you don't need coaches, you don't need to listen to
Speaker 1: anyone's advice. Where do you sit on that and how
Speaker 1: do you help young people navigate that today? Because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people are stuck trying to figure
Speaker 1: out or they're not doing either properly. As well, the
Speaker 1: second group is stupid. But just be clear. Okay, that
Speaker 1: was very radiclear. I just want to be clear. They
Speaker 1: may confuse the fact that they may have good instincts,
Speaker 1: they have to make their own decisions. They can be
Speaker 1: independent thinkers that might do controversial things in order to
Speaker 1: be successful. That all is true, Okay, that all is true,
Speaker 1: But the perspectives gained, the learning, the wisdom that is gained,
Speaker 1: the open mindedness, the power of stress testing your ideas.
Speaker 1: I say that I think everybody to be successful should
Speaker 1: be assertive and open minded at the same time people ask, well,
Speaker 1: what does that merely mean? It means you have to believe,
Speaker 1: you have to understand, and then at the same time
Speaker 1: you have to doubt and pull out and get the
Speaker 1: questions so that you stress tested and you're learning. And
Speaker 1: so there's a great power in getting the other perspectives,
Speaker 1: you know. A triangulation for me is the key to success.
Speaker 1: One of the keys to success. Triangulation, I mean, get
Speaker 1: the three smartest people that you know who will care
Speaker 1: about you but will disagree with you, will stress test you,
Speaker 1: and have those conversations, and I like to have them
Speaker 1: disagree with each other. Yeah, so I'll bring them into
Speaker 1: a room and we'll have a conversation and then okay,
Speaker 1: do the back and forth you want to learn about anything,
Speaker 1: Like I have big initiatives and where I don't know anything,
Speaker 1: and I have found that if I follow that approach
Speaker 1: by getting the best experts, and I do that, I
Speaker 1: can go into things with the guidance. So it's so
Speaker 1: obviously stupid, all right think or so obviously beneficial to
Speaker 1: be able to draw up on the best thinking and
Speaker 1: then not to just blindly believe. So when I say
Speaker 1: it be assertive and open minded at the same time.
Speaker 1: Don't just follow, Okay, do the back and forth. Here
Speaker 1: are the disagreements, and then resolve the disagreements. It's an
Speaker 1: extremely powerful approach. Yeah. No, there's this amazing study I
Speaker 1: read a few years ago in MT where they said
Speaker 1: that they did a study. MT did a study on
Speaker 1: the most innovative people inside an organization, and they showed
Speaker 1: two graphs to people and they said, who do you
Speaker 1: think is more innovative? And in graph number one it
Speaker 1: was where one person is connected to lots of different
Speaker 1: people like this, and then graph two was people connected
Speaker 1: to people and then the people they knew were connected
Speaker 1: to each other, And they asked, who do you think
Speaker 1: is more innovative, and most people said the second. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's because people don't have to read
Speaker 1: graphs or whether people really thought it was, but the
Speaker 1: answer was that if you know people who all know
Speaker 1: each other, chances are you're going to be less innovative
Speaker 1: and less effective because you live in an echo chamber.
Speaker 1: But if you know people who don't know each other,
Speaker 1: who have more random ideas disagreements, are less likely to
Speaker 1: affirm each other's beliefs. Which is what you're saying, you're
Speaker 1: actually going to get to a better answer. So they
Speaker 1: were saying that if you know people from different backgrounds,
Speaker 1: different walks of life, different expertise, therefore they will naturally
Speaker 1: be debate, you get healthier answers. So I think that
Speaker 1: study always stands out to me. And this is a problem.
Speaker 1: The biggest problem of our society now. The biggest problem
Speaker 1: of our society now is individuals who are highly opinionated,
Speaker 1: who will not exchange open mindedly the different opinions about
Speaker 1: things and are in their echo chambers, whether it's on
Speaker 1: the particular media that they're connected to and so on,
Speaker 1: who are then having conflicts with each other. This is
Speaker 1: a threat to our society. Yeah, and let's talk about it.
Speaker 1: I think that's such a fascinating topic and idea because
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more if I had to
Speaker 1: say for myself, I feel like I think maybe it
Speaker 1: was from you know, working. I love both my parents,
Speaker 1: but I was mediating their marriage since I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and so I was very good at being on both sides.
Speaker 1: I love them both individually, and I would always like
Speaker 1: I'd know I could listen to my mom and I
Speaker 1: could hear her side and I could empathize with her,
Speaker 1: and I do the same with my dad, and I'd
Speaker 1: be there for both of them, and it became a
Speaker 1: natural thing that I was able to do. I think
Speaker 1: because of that, when I reflect on, I think that's
Speaker 1: how I gained that skill. So I've always found it
Speaker 1: very natural to be able to understand different sides, to
Speaker 1: really empathize and connect with different people and see that
Speaker 1: there's truth and challenges in both. But I think that's
Speaker 1: hard to do because I think today we feel ideology
Speaker 1: is our safety, right, and ideology is what makes us
Speaker 1: feel secure and who we are, and so right, that's
Speaker 1: a serious mistake, right, So yeah, let's let's get into that.
Speaker 1: How do we let go of that in recognizing that
Speaker 1: actually knowledge and knowing is far more a safety than
Speaker 1: holding onto one ideology. I think it's simple. The fear
Speaker 1: of making bad mistakes or being wrong should be a
Speaker 1: motivator to take in these different perspectives and then weigh things. Okay,
Speaker 1: an ideology, though let's say it's a political ideology. I
Speaker 1: want my children to be educated in a certain way.
Speaker 1: That's a very particular important ideology still means that there
Speaker 1: are choices that you have, and then the question is
Speaker 1: have you made those choices in the best way? And
Speaker 1: then after you've made those choices, what are you going
Speaker 1: to do about it? Should you move from one place
Speaker 1: to another? Should what schools do you pick? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know those kinds of things. Life is just a
Speaker 1: matter of those particular choices. And there are win win relationships,
Speaker 1: and there are lose lose relationships, and win win relationships
Speaker 1: are a lot better than lose lose relationships. So knowing
Speaker 1: the approach to that, live and let live. I can
Speaker 1: make my choices, I can move here, I can do this.
Speaker 1: Or the mutual respect that you have for it's okay,
Speaker 1: you can have your point of view. To be less
Speaker 1: judgmental is better. I mean it's better for everybody. Is
Speaker 1: somebody doing you harm? That's a whole different thing. But
Speaker 1: all of that I think is very very important. The
Speaker 1: art of thoughtful disagreement is the basis of a very
Speaker 1: innovative and also harmonious society. If you want to have
Speaker 1: an innovative, harmonious society, you have to have the art
Speaker 1: of thoughtful disagreement. And the mediator is a very important
Speaker 1: role so that you played because, like I wrote in
Speaker 1: my other book Principles, one of the handy things is
Speaker 1: if you're having a disagreement, one of you might be wrong,
Speaker 1: and how do you know and how do you get
Speaker 1: past that? And so the classic thing is to find
Speaker 1: to agree on somebody who you mutually agree will be
Speaker 1: a fair judge and a fair mediator. And if you
Speaker 1: mutually agree on that person, then you bring them. Then
Speaker 1: they can get you, they can help you along. And
Speaker 1: the exercise of going above it and saying, Okay, here's
Speaker 1: this disagreement, and how do we deal with disagreement and
Speaker 1: each other related to the disagreement, that is a good
Speaker 1: perspective to have. And so I think that as we
Speaker 1: look at all those things, I think that it's so
Speaker 1: clear that approaches like that are and perspectives like that
Speaker 1: are very very helpful. Yeah, and I love how you
Speaker 1: cool and art because I remember when I was at
Speaker 1: in my high school, I was part of my debating
Speaker 1: team at school, and I first got into it because
Speaker 1: I found public speaking natural and I enjoyed it. And
Speaker 1: you know, I guess as a young man, I thought
Speaker 1: it was fun to argue with people and defeat them,
Speaker 1: and things like that, and I'd go up there and
Speaker 1: I know how to pick apart someone's argument, and I'd
Speaker 1: know how to bend it and twist it. And then
Speaker 1: I remember one of our teachers or coaches. He sat
Speaker 1: me down and he said, Jay, do you think you're
Speaker 1: good at this? And I hadn't had a young person's
Speaker 1: ego like you. I was were fifteen, sixteen years old,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, I'm really great at this.
Speaker 1: And he said, well, actually, you you are just winning
Speaker 1: because you get it arguing. But he goes, you don't
Speaker 1: actually know how to debate. And I said, what do
Speaker 1: you mean and he said, well, he said, you're debating
Speaker 1: based on why your point is better. But he goes,
Speaker 1: you don't know the other person's point well enough. And
Speaker 1: so he said, the only way you become a great
Speaker 1: debater is if you also deeply study the opposing argument.
Speaker 1: He goes, you can't just win on the merit of
Speaker 1: your argument. You have to actually understand where that person's
Speaker 1: coming from. It changed my whole view. Yeah, so I'll
Speaker 1: take that an one please, please, Oh, I'd love for
Speaker 1: you to. Yeah. The one step further is not to
Speaker 1: win your point of view. The one step further is
Speaker 1: to get a truth. The real winner is somebody who
Speaker 1: learns something. Okay, so I'm talking about in life. Maybe
Speaker 1: on the stage you say, ah, you won the debate
Speaker 1: because you ended up with the position you started with yes,
Speaker 1: and you wont it. We give you the most points.
Speaker 1: But the real winner in life is to try to
Speaker 1: find what the best path is. And the one who
Speaker 1: comes out of it, who has improved their understanding and
Speaker 1: makes a step forward, is the real winner. So losing
Speaker 1: the debate in many cases can make you a better winner.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more, and I think,
Speaker 1: I think that's the challenge. I remember, there's there's a
Speaker 1: famous phrase. I don't know where it comes from, but
Speaker 1: there's three sides to every story. One's yours, one's mind,
Speaker 1: and then the truth. Right like there's but we've so
Speaker 1: off feel that our side is the truth. I know.
Speaker 1: It's such a terror. We've been raised that way. You know.
Speaker 1: The educational system means, okay, you take a test. I
Speaker 1: came up with the right answer I want, Okay. It
Speaker 1: doesn't take you through the journey of saying I'm now
Speaker 1: having experience and I was wrong, And how do I
Speaker 1: go above that. That's what one of the big reasons
Speaker 1: why people often who are very successful in school are
Speaker 1: not very successful in life. Yeah it's so true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so true. And I hope that this podcast at
Speaker 1: least reminds people that any argument you have this week,
Speaker 1: this doesn't just apply with a debate in the workplace
Speaker 1: or a disagreement at home with your friends and your family,
Speaker 1: wherever you are. If you can take a moment to
Speaker 1: reflect on finding the truth, as you rightly said, and
Speaker 1: a bad experience can become a good experience. In other words,
Speaker 1: if you approach it as a fight, it's going to
Speaker 1: produce a lot of anxiety. If you approach it as
Speaker 1: a curiosity and a game almost that you're playing with
Speaker 1: each other, okay, to try to get at truth, Okay,
Speaker 1: then that could be really a wonderful experience. But somehow
Speaker 1: we feel that admitting a mistake or admitting we were
Speaker 1: wrong or discovering the truth makes us weak and makes
Speaker 1: us bad. Education system bad, you know, because it just
Speaker 1: looks at that particular answer, and it doesn't look at
Speaker 1: the sequence of discovering truth. And that's that's a that's
Speaker 1: a problem. It's a it's a problem. But I found
Speaker 1: in people that it's not a problem that they can't
Speaker 1: get over. Um, I've found that we have this culture
Speaker 1: in which that's the culture, right, it becomes obvious if
Speaker 1: you're not doing it. Yes, And when you have in
Speaker 1: an environment like that, then people's behaviors changed pretty quickly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say, and I don't know how many months
Speaker 1: it'll vary, but maybe eighteen months or side that they
Speaker 1: would be curious, what are they what might they be missing?
Speaker 1: And they understand that it almost is so silly to
Speaker 1: be a blocker of ideas and to be antagonistic when
Speaker 1: there's a different point of view, it's really stupid to
Speaker 1: do that. And when they start to see themselves doing
Speaker 1: that and asking why are they doing that? That reflection
Speaker 1: and then changing behavior then produces change behavior that produces rewards,
Speaker 1: better decisions and better relationships. When you have better decisions
Speaker 1: and better relationships, you have a better life. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it does take time. And you said eighteen months there.
Speaker 1: I think I was talking to my team before we
Speaker 1: kicked off, and I was just saying that I feel
Speaker 1: like we finally in my company have a culture where
Speaker 1: everyone is so self reflective and self focused on what
Speaker 1: they can improve and how they can be better. That
Speaker 1: it makes it easier to have conversations where there's disagreement
Speaker 1: and debate and a difference of opinion because everyone is
Speaker 1: reflecting on themselves. They're not coming into something going no,
Speaker 1: my idea is the best and we're getting it wrong.
Speaker 1: But I think that takes a certain kind of person
Speaker 1: and human who who has that ability to do that
Speaker 1: while not losing their self esteem? Yes, but that that
Speaker 1: can be trained. Okay, here's the way it works. There
Speaker 1: is an intellectual, analytical part of our brains, logical and
Speaker 1: so on, and then there's this subliminal which means we
Speaker 1: don't even know what it's thinking, emotional part of our
Speaker 1: brains that is operating. That if you speak with somebody
Speaker 1: and you have you put them in the position of
Speaker 1: saying would you like this or would you not like it?
Speaker 1: And you they start to experience the two users I
Speaker 1: call it. Then they start to see that they may
Speaker 1: not make they may make a different choice. For example,
Speaker 1: if I say, Jay, I have these thoughts about what
Speaker 1: you're not doing, well, would you lie me to discuss
Speaker 1: it with you? Or would you not like me to
Speaker 1: discuss it with you, or I think you have I
Speaker 1: don't know. It could be even a fatal flaw. By
Speaker 1: the way, fatal flaws are not fatal because you may
Speaker 1: not be able to change yourself, but you can work
Speaker 1: with people who are strong where you're weak to be
Speaker 1: able to be successful. Yes, but when you ask that
Speaker 1: and those things that they find a barrier, it's quite
Speaker 1: often the case that intellectually they understand it. Yes, Obviously
Speaker 1: it's desirable for you to tell me maybe things I
Speaker 1: don't want to hear, Okay, but I know that of course.
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to know that you're hearing
Speaker 1: those things, and secondly, maybe they're true. And so that
Speaker 1: exercise of speaking where the intellectual and the subliminal are
Speaker 1: at odds and they see that it's at odds, and
Speaker 1: then they've begin to pursue a way of being, is
Speaker 1: a training process that can help them to say I
Speaker 1: want that. Yes. Yes, It's almost like the debate that
Speaker 1: we're seeing externally is actually debate going on internally between
Speaker 1: them already. Yes, if that is it. Yes. The biggest
Speaker 1: debates we have is that debate the emotionalists with the
Speaker 1: intellectual us and the path really to success, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is to be able to align those Okay, what am
Speaker 1: I feeling, and then to reflect intellectually is that the
Speaker 1: right thing? If I'm going to I don't know, punch
Speaker 1: the person, or if I'm going to maybe eat what
Speaker 1: I shouldn't eat or something, And then intellectually I can
Speaker 1: have the reconciliation between that emotional and that intellectual to
Speaker 1: make the decision and I get alignment. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I find meditation helps a lot, I can get alignment,
Speaker 1: and then I can take that view that I have
Speaker 1: and then triangular aid it with others. The probability of
Speaker 1: me making a much better decision has increased immensely, And
Speaker 1: it's an all success in life is is making the
Speaker 1: better decisions. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you It's it's really interesting
Speaker 1: the path that we've gone down. And I love it
Speaker 1: when you said jazz, It's like, it's definitely been like
Speaker 1: that because we've gone down a completely different direction, which
Speaker 1: which I love. But you you said something he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is one of the biggest challenges in
Speaker 1: society today. What are some of the challenges you see
Speaker 1: in society that we should be addressing at the core
Speaker 1: Because This isn't just going into like the current events,
Speaker 1: it's really looking at root challenges that we Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been in global macro investor for about over fifty years,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I learned in my
Speaker 1: life is that many of the things that surprised me
Speaker 1: just hadn't happened to me before, but they happened many
Speaker 1: times in history. So by studying history I could then
Speaker 1: do well. So, for example, studying the Great Depression allowed
Speaker 1: me to do very well in the two thousand and
Speaker 1: eight financial crisis. What's happening now is allowing me to
Speaker 1: do very well when others are having problems because of
Speaker 1: things that are happening past the three big things, and
Speaker 1: there are a couple more too, But the three big
Speaker 1: things that are happening to us is first the financial
Speaker 1: that's happening at a macro level, which is the creation
Speaker 1: of a lot of debt and the printing of a
Speaker 1: lot of money to pay for that debt so you
Speaker 1: don't pay it back with hard dollars and so on.
Speaker 1: That's putting a lot of money out there, and that's
Speaker 1: producing the stagflation that we have, and the magnitudes of
Speaker 1: that are unprecedented. You have to go back to the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties to see something like that. And so the
Speaker 1: value of money and what you do with money and
Speaker 1: its economic impact affects everybody. The second big influence is
Speaker 1: the amount of internal conflict that is existing because of
Speaker 1: larger large wealth gaps, the largest wealth gaps since the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, the largest values gaps. And then this intransigent
Speaker 1: win at all cost type of mentality which is reflected
Speaker 1: in populism. In other words, a populist is a political
Speaker 1: representative who says I will fight for you and win
Speaker 1: at all cost, and that means not compromising. And that
Speaker 1: win at all cost is why you see the January
Speaker 1: sixth incidents and things like that. We may be in
Speaker 1: a position where neither side in the next presidential election
Speaker 1: accepts losing in the next presidential election. That conflict produces
Speaker 1: the most irreconcilable differences and people who are in that mindset,
Speaker 1: and that is what causes civil wars. Types of civil wars.
Speaker 1: You can easily imagine that the central government might give
Speaker 1: directions to the local government or people and they say,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to follow that law. You might see
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, you may not find that. And that's
Speaker 1: a world problem right now. So that second problem is
Speaker 1: a problem. It's particularly a problem when you have the
Speaker 1: first problem, because the first problem produces financial problems, which
Speaker 1: produces stress and antagonism and says, this wealth gap or
Speaker 1: whatever values gap, I'm going to fight for. You have
Speaker 1: the second that's dangerous. And the third is the rise
Speaker 1: of powers. Of the United States is no longer the
Speaker 1: dominant power. In other words, if you look at the
Speaker 1: percentage share of world GDP or military superiority in those
Speaker 1: types of things, and so you have these rising powers
Speaker 1: and the United States, and so you have bigger powers
Speaker 1: in bigger conflicts. We see it obviously with Russia today,
Speaker 1: but we see it with China and so on, and
Speaker 1: so the whole geographic world order is changing. All of
Speaker 1: these things make for greater conflict, right The financial conflict,
Speaker 1: the financial pain. How do I deal with inflation? Where
Speaker 1: should I keep my money? It's not the same, How
Speaker 1: do I deal with that? Together with the internal conflict?
Speaker 1: And that external conflict produces a very stressful and risky
Speaker 1: period for the world. We are in a risky period
Speaker 1: in the world. And so that those are from the
Speaker 1: macro their perspective. The biggest influences I studied. When I
Speaker 1: studied this, I studied the last five hundred years of
Speaker 1: history and to see the arcs, because the arcs typically
Speaker 1: take one hundred or one hundred and fifty years to
Speaker 1: have an arc, a big cycle, and so I needed
Speaker 1: to study the five hundred years and I put it
Speaker 1: out in a book, Changing World Order, and there's also
Speaker 1: a video free video online. Twenty four million people see that.
Speaker 1: It's easy to see because I wanted to convey the message,
Speaker 1: and you see those arcs repeating overtime for certain reasons.
Speaker 1: I think it's very important that people understand those arcs.
Speaker 1: And then again with the equanimity and the other things
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, approach that set of circumstances. So
Speaker 1: that's the mix of circumstances that I would say creates
Speaker 1: the environment that we're in. And the key to any
Speaker 1: environment is to know how to navigate it well. So
Speaker 1: in that book, I wrote different principles of how do
Speaker 1: you deal with that kind of an environment. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that environment. There's nothing sure in what I'm saying, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: but it does come back to some basics and those
Speaker 1: basics means are how are people with each other? How
Speaker 1: am I going to be with you? Can we have
Speaker 1: thoughtful disagreement, Can we have compromised Can we have a
Speaker 1: country in which we are more together that more and
Speaker 1: fight and to understand how that choice together figuring it
Speaker 1: out is going to be a whole lot better than
Speaker 1: fighting with each other. Yeah, And I think that's the
Speaker 1: challenge we're seeing, is this massive disparity between the challenge
Speaker 1: getting more and more extreme and our skills still being
Speaker 1: at the same level. Like that ability to have that
Speaker 1: conversation or that debate or that disagreement, the skill level
Speaker 1: we have is so low, that's right. And you see
Speaker 1: by studying the French Revolution, in the Chinese Revolution, the
Speaker 1: Russian Revolution, all of these Cuban revolutions and so on,
Speaker 1: when it starts to intensify, you get past the point
Speaker 1: of listening to each other, and then you go into
Speaker 1: the fighting mode, and that's a cycle. So like in
Speaker 1: the French Revolution, there were many in the middle who
Speaker 1: said this system is not working and for both sides,
Speaker 1: and there should be a reformation in making move But
Speaker 1: if you were in the middle, you were guillotined or
Speaker 1: anyone in the middle. You have to pick a side
Speaker 1: and fight. And that's the nature of that dynamic. It's
Speaker 1: all within us because if you take any measure of
Speaker 1: living standards, the world, the world has more wealth and
Speaker 1: it ever has. It can greater longevity because there's greater science.
Speaker 1: So what we have and totality, the world has more
Speaker 1: than it has ever had. Right, So our opportunity is
Speaker 1: great if we could just work it out right. But
Speaker 1: we can destroy each other. We can hurt each other
Speaker 1: very badly because of human nature. And it's the same
Speaker 1: human nature that existed through time. There are lessons just
Speaker 1: don't do this. Yeah, I mean when you say that,
Speaker 1: I start thinking of when you're studying history and you're
Speaker 1: studying those five hundred years And I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you this in a second, but there's an example that
Speaker 1: came to my mind. I was thinking about, like, where
Speaker 1: did someone get it right or where is their progress
Speaker 1: as well in history? And I recently got to visit
Speaker 1: Rwanda and I would never thought I would have visited,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't part of my plans. I went because
Speaker 1: one of my friends opened up a conservation center for
Speaker 1: the environment and for gorillas, and it's beautiful space out there.
Speaker 1: So I went there and we got to trek with
Speaker 1: the gorillas every day and walk with them, and it's
Speaker 1: it's a really beautiful thing because you're walking with them
Speaker 1: in the wild. They're not you know, kept in a
Speaker 1: zoo or anywhere like that. They're in their home and
Speaker 1: you get to go and observe them in their home.
Speaker 1: But but more importantly, I went to the memorial, the
Speaker 1: genocide memorial museum there and the genocide was just twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, and you learn about the two tribes that
Speaker 1: you know completely. I think one million people died in
Speaker 1: the genocide out of the ten million population that the
Speaker 1: country has. So it's huge, right like, And what I
Speaker 1: was blown away by was I met with some of
Speaker 1: the survivors and I sat with them because I was
Speaker 1: just curious and intrigued because everyone there now is let
Speaker 1: go of the names of the tribes. They've let go of,
Speaker 1: you know, the heritage almost from their parents. Most of
Speaker 1: these people's parents would have killed each other. Like it's
Speaker 1: a it's a very like violent environment, but there's such
Speaker 1: a healing, there's such a forgiveness, there's such a path
Speaker 1: to letting go down. Of course, there's other challenges that
Speaker 1: are going on in the country and the poverty, etc.
Speaker 1: But the leadership has spearheaded this journey towards collective conscience
Speaker 1: and like bringing people together and recognizing that we're more
Speaker 1: alike than we are different. And I was just astounded
Speaker 1: at how a country twenty years ago in that much
Speaker 1: turmoil is rising from that. Did you find any examples
Speaker 1: in history where people did have positive mediation. Well, what
Speaker 1: you're describing is the typical cycle. So I'm just going
Speaker 1: to make clear the typical cycle is. The typical cycle
Speaker 1: is that you have a war, a civil war or
Speaker 1: an international war, that you have a fight for power,
Speaker 1: and then you have a horrendous experience, Okay, and then
Speaker 1: out of that comes a new water, comes a new system.
Speaker 1: Somebody is dominant. Spanish war is brothers fighting each other
Speaker 1: and so on, how horrendous experience, and then some force
Speaker 1: gains the power wins and it becomes such a horrendous experience.
Speaker 1: The French Civil War, all of these civil wars, they
Speaker 1: become such a horrendous experience that nobody wants it again,
Speaker 1: and so the pendulum swings so that you then don't
Speaker 1: have a war. So for example, my father and that
Speaker 1: generation fought in a war. Okay, in the beginning parts
Speaker 1: of these wars, they're into the war, you know, they're
Speaker 1: brave and they're going to go there. And then the
Speaker 1: war is so horrendous and it goes on so long,
Speaker 1: and by the way, it's a great equalizer. They destroy wealth,
Speaker 1: so wealth equality then becomes greater, and they go into
Speaker 1: that environment and then it just it ends. And then
Speaker 1: when it ends, there's so much hurting and so much
Speaker 1: not wanting war that you come to a period of
Speaker 1: peace and prosperity. And the cycle goes for peace and prosperity,
Speaker 1: and then a new generation comes along, okay, who has
Speaker 1: not experienced the war, and then comes into that and says,
Speaker 1: we will fight and so on, like our generation has
Speaker 1: not experienced those things. And yet they're intransigent in terms
Speaker 1: of those fights, and they so many people could say, hell, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm going to fight, and then you go through that cycle.
Speaker 1: So that's how the cycle normally works. How do we
Speaker 1: then make sure that people understand the ramifications and consequences.
Speaker 1: I think that's when I put out the book, because
Speaker 1: I want people to worry about this. I have a principle.
Speaker 1: If you worry, you don't have to worry, and if
Speaker 1: you don't worry, you need to worry. Okay. If you worry,
Speaker 1: then you will take care not to do the thing
Speaker 1: you're worrying about. If you don't worry about it, you're
Speaker 1: probably going to do it. Okay. So when I look
Speaker 1: at the set of circumstances, I believe that we as
Speaker 1: a society are at a juncture. We recognize it this
Speaker 1: conflict or can we have win win relationships? Can we compromise,
Speaker 1: can we have this together? Can we work well together?
Speaker 1: Or not? Okay, we're at that. I think by seeing
Speaker 1: those alternatives and having a middle, you know, I pray
Speaker 1: for a strong middle. I pray for avoiding the extremes
Speaker 1: and the fighting between those extremes. And maybe if that's
Speaker 1: the case, then we will get it. And it's hard
Speaker 1: when the system has been set up for the extremes, right,
Speaker 1: Like it's difficult when I think it's more human nature
Speaker 1: than the system. Like, Okay, we've had this democratic system
Speaker 1: over through a period, but we have one civil war
Speaker 1: and we've had others. How are we going to be?
Speaker 1: Democracy worked very very well for a lot of times
Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, and I don't have to
Speaker 1: recount them. But at the same time, the history of
Speaker 1: democracy and cycles, Plato in his book The Republic tells
Speaker 1: about these cycles over and over again. And the real
Speaker 1: risk to democracy is anarchy because you can't have strong
Speaker 1: leadership because everybody's fighting over everything, and it produces a chaos,
Speaker 1: and that chaos becomes intolerable, and everybody wants to fight,
Speaker 1: and then you have the fight. So I think it's
Speaker 1: more human nature than a system. Yeah, human nature just
Speaker 1: goes in that direction regardless. It's also like people who
Speaker 1: went who didn't have anything and are broken or in
Speaker 1: the worst possible positions, and a society like that, and
Speaker 1: then they come out and then they work well together,
Speaker 1: they make things, and then they can become decadent. The
Speaker 1: society can become decadent. I think our society is decadent now.
Speaker 1: I think it's got a problem in that the lower
Speaker 1: levels of society intimate contact through my wife, particularly who
Speaker 1: is helping the what it's called disengage in disconnected population
Speaker 1: of high school students in Connecticut. Those are students who
Speaker 1: disconnected means they're no longer in school, out they don't
Speaker 1: know where they are and engage means that they have
Speaker 1: an absentee rate of greater than twenty five percent. They're
Speaker 1: failing classes. Twenty two percent of the high school students
Speaker 1: in Connecticut are one of those one out of five.
Speaker 1: Education isn't working, they're living in poverty. We have created
Speaker 1: a self reinforcing cycle that children have. We didn't create
Speaker 1: an acceptable bottom. You create a situation where children gone
Speaker 1: in gangs, and children can't walk to school safely. Shootings
Speaker 1: regularly in Hartford, Connecticut, Ridgeport, Connecticut just right up the
Speaker 1: road from US. Okay, exists pockets throughout this and an
Speaker 1: equal opportunity. We do not have equal opportunity. And to
Speaker 1: simultaneously have a situation in which we are not taking
Speaker 1: care of the basics, but we are really over you know,
Speaker 1: doing the luxuries is creating a set of circumstances. That's
Speaker 1: a problem, I think, And so I think that's how
Speaker 1: man is with each other. So it's a cycle. If
Speaker 1: you get spoiled like this is the thing I worry about.
Speaker 1: You know, our family doesn't make sure our family doesn't
Speaker 1: get spoiled and the kids don't get spoiled because what
Speaker 1: happens is then they're not strong. That's a cycle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like three generations, the classic three generation cycle.
Speaker 1: You know, somebody works hard and they make it, they
Speaker 1: have those sound values. Then what happens is then they
Speaker 1: inherited it, and then they are in a position where
Speaker 1: you know, they don't have the same and they're spoiled.
Speaker 1: And there they say, I don't have to work as hard,
Speaker 1: I'm living off of what I've got, and why don't
Speaker 1: I enjoy life and so on, and then while people
Speaker 1: around them maybe are suffering, And you know, but I
Speaker 1: see it. I live in British Connecticut. It's Bridgeport, Connecticut.
Speaker 1: People just don't have contact. They don't see it. And
Speaker 1: so there are these cycles that happen, many of them.
Speaker 1: They coincide the cycle that I'm talking about about attitude,
Speaker 1: about protecting and how do we make a good society.
Speaker 1: For the most thing, let's say the basic idea that
Speaker 1: we should strive for equal opportunity. Yes, I mean that's
Speaker 1: a fundamental thing, equal opportunity, right, but that doesn't become
Speaker 1: the banner that either is pursuing. So these cycles of conflict,
Speaker 1: wealth gaps, and all of those things exist. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: seems like to me when I hear that, it perpetuates
Speaker 1: and the cycle continues because it seems that not enough
Speaker 1: people have experienced exactly right, the cycle lasts longer than
Speaker 1: a lifetime, so you're only going to experience that piece
Speaker 1: of the cycle in your lifetime. Right, Wars, depressions, Okay,
Speaker 1: they happened throughout history. Are we not going to go
Speaker 1: into a war again? Are we not going to have
Speaker 1: another depression? That's of course, at some point, we're going
Speaker 1: to have those things. Okay, But we were lucky. Nineteen
Speaker 1: forty five was the end of the last war. We
Speaker 1: began a new era. We had the cycle in which
Speaker 1: things got better and better and there was equality better equality.
Speaker 1: I know the world I was born into. I was lucky.
Speaker 1: I was born in nineteen forty nine. I had two
Speaker 1: parents who could take care of me. I went to
Speaker 1: a public school, and I came out to a world
Speaker 1: which for me was a world of equal opportunity. Okay.
Speaker 1: You when you have those types of things and then
Speaker 1: things evolve and we're in a very different part of
Speaker 1: the cycle now. They amount the printing of money, the
Speaker 1: internal conflict, the external conflict, those types of things. We're
Speaker 1: in a different environment now and we have to recognize
Speaker 1: that and why we never experienced it. Yeah, if we
Speaker 1: experienced it and had that terror for it or the
Speaker 1: choice of what could be the joy of the alternative,
Speaker 1: we would be in a different position. Yeah, it also
Speaker 1: sounds like we haven't experienced that, but we also haven't
Speaker 1: experienced what it feels like to live in a culture
Speaker 1: of higher values. Right, So like when you were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier and I'm going a bit more micro, but
Speaker 1: to take it macro again, when you said, and you know,
Speaker 1: we create an organization, whereas about meaningful work, meaningful relationships,
Speaker 1: you know, radical transparency. If you've never worked in a
Speaker 1: culture like that, you don't know the value of it,
Speaker 1: and therefore you naturally have a culture of disagreement, arguments, disconnection.
Speaker 1: And so it's almost like, how do we get to
Speaker 1: a point where everyone does like, you'll always go and
Speaker 1: I'm going very micro here, but you'll always go for
Speaker 1: the junk food unless you've had healthy tasty food. Right,
Speaker 1: it's just natural because we've been programmed to look for sugars, carbs, fats,
Speaker 1: you'll go for that unless you've had healthy, tasty food accessible. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so on a macro level. The challenge again comes
Speaker 1: that if you have junk values and you have healthy values,
Speaker 1: you naturally go for the junk values because that's what
Speaker 1: served you. And so it's like, how do you give
Speaker 1: people at scale an experience of how living with equal
Speaker 1: opportunity or other healthy values is actually better for everyone? Right? Like,
Speaker 1: it's how do we do that? Is that? Is that possible?
Speaker 1: That the goal? I think it's the same as good parenting,
Speaker 1: good mentoring, and the good work that you're doing. Right
Speaker 1: there are people on this broadcast and you're helping a
Speaker 1: lot of people, and I'm trying in my way to
Speaker 1: do the same. And then it's up here, comes in here,
Speaker 1: and then it has to be that visceral experience it
Speaker 1: so that you start to experience the rewards of it,
Speaker 1: so that you're afraid of not doing it right. Habit Okay,
Speaker 1: I talked about eighteen months. Okay, you can change the
Speaker 1: behavior in eighteen months, by and large, behavioral change is
Speaker 1: like an eighteen month thing. If you take somebody alcohol
Speaker 1: it's anonymous, or if you take other things, can you
Speaker 1: develop the subliminal que that you're working off of to
Speaker 1: produce a reaction that becomes instinctual, So you do it.
Speaker 1: That is the path and wherever it comes from, whether
Speaker 1: it's coming from this, that whatever we're doing, and then
Speaker 1: action that's taken to change one's habit and then experience
Speaker 1: the rewards of it that you know, that's the psychle
Speaker 1: I'm just you scientifically right, psychologically, scientifically, that's what it is.
Speaker 1: It's not a philosophical answer, it's just the way it is. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but that's what it is. It's it's building a new culture,
Speaker 1: and the culture starts with each individual building it within themselves. Right,
Speaker 1: And so you're making another good point. It's those things
Speaker 1: that I just said in a reinforcing environment in which
Speaker 1: others share those things, and then it makes it the
Speaker 1: better because that group reinforcing it, which is a culture,
Speaker 1: it has a great great power over what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: Culture is destiny. Culture's destiny. Well, what are some of
Speaker 1: the things that you think, after all these years, after
Speaker 1: all this study, after all this research, have become healthy
Speaker 1: things to aspire for. I think to be a human
Speaker 1: means to aspire, like we're always seeking, aspiring, wanting something.
Speaker 1: What do you think of healthy things or how can
Speaker 1: people discover because I think we all, you know, everyone
Speaker 1: could go down the path and think, Okay, there was
Speaker 1: a time it's what you said, like there was a
Speaker 1: time when all I wanted was money or success, and
Speaker 1: then often when people get that, they go, well, that
Speaker 1: was good, but that wasn't it. Is the goal to
Speaker 1: just seek and aspire for what you feel at the time,
Speaker 1: and then change it when you get that because you've
Speaker 1: realized that wasn't it. Or are there certain healthy characteristics
Speaker 1: or values that you think people can aspire for. I
Speaker 1: do agree on the journey and the evolutionary process of
Speaker 1: In other words, you go after something, you experience it,
Speaker 1: you learn, and you evolve, and so I believe it's
Speaker 1: an evolutionary process. Okay, so I think it is evolve
Speaker 1: well and contribute to evolution. If I was to say,
Speaker 1: for me, what my aspiration is is evolve well and
Speaker 1: contribute to evolution to yourself. That's why to know yourself
Speaker 1: means know your nature. I put out a free test
Speaker 1: for everyone wants. It's called Principles You. Yes, it's the
Speaker 1: universally and just determined like the most effective tests, Principles You.
Speaker 1: It's free online. You can go online and understand yourself,
Speaker 1: and it helps you understand other types of people. So
Speaker 1: knowing one's nature and then finding the path for that
Speaker 1: nature is a very important thing. And number three, I
Speaker 1: would say is meaningful work and meaningful relationships. For most people,
Speaker 1: if you have something you're into and it's a passion
Speaker 1: and you have wonderful relationships, it's from almost all people
Speaker 1: wonderfully rewarding. So I would say it's you know those
Speaker 1: those three things, right, there's a beautiful answer this. It's
Speaker 1: always such a joy and pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 1: I always learned so much, and you set the tone
Speaker 1: when you said jazz. You gave us full permission to
Speaker 1: just go off peace and really co create. And I
Speaker 1: love where we got to. I you know, when we
Speaker 1: spoke last week and we were saying what should we
Speaker 1: talk about? And I never thought it would go in
Speaker 1: this direction. But I'm so satisfied by this meaningful conversation
Speaker 1: because I think we went somewhere we didn't plan to,
Speaker 1: and that always feels like a better end than what
Speaker 1: you did plan to as well. Well, this was like
Speaker 1: playing good jazz. But this isn't the end, no, please,
Speaker 1: Like I'm what I'm telling you is that I'm coming
Speaker 1: back at you man, right, Oh, okay, So I am
Speaker 1: going to you asked me a lot of questions, okay,
Speaker 1: But what I'm going to do is I'm coming at
Speaker 1: you for your principles. Okay. I want you articulated, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you those things because i want
Speaker 1: that to be put out, okay, and distributed, and i
Speaker 1: want people to vote them up for the best situation.
Speaker 1: How do you deal with a divorce, a death in
Speaker 1: the family, whatever. I'm going to give you a bunch
Speaker 1: of those types of questions. What's your formula for success? Okay?
Speaker 1: So imagine now there's Jay Chetty's and there's other people
Speaker 1: there that they can vote those things up to get
Speaker 1: whatever they think is the best, which is essentially creating
Speaker 1: the principles for themselves or almost the way of life,
Speaker 1: the religion for themselves that they think is going to
Speaker 1: be best. So I think that's a paramount importance. I
Speaker 1: can't wait for that. I'm so excited. I'm so excited
Speaker 1: to contribute, more excited to use it. Sounds like a
Speaker 1: fantastic resource. Are you doing. You're developing that right now? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the goal is that it will be every area
Speaker 1: of life, every business, family, that's right. I want anybody
Speaker 1: on anything that's on the principles. Right, you just push
Speaker 1: the button, you say I need help with I've got
Speaker 1: a I don't know, an add four year old. Yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: push the button. What's the best principle? Okay, that's what
Speaker 1: I'd like to do. So tell me in terms of
Speaker 1: the journey of life? What are you going after and why?
Speaker 1: How do you look at your journey of life? What
Speaker 1: are you going after? Why? And that's you? And then
Speaker 1: what do you think other people should do for their
Speaker 1: journey of life? Because they may go after different things.
Speaker 1: So give me the more general answer that may not
Speaker 1: be just yours. So there's a few steps to this.
Speaker 1: The first thing I'd say is a general is that
Speaker 1: there are four really important decisions that I believe we
Speaker 1: have to make in life. And the first principle is
Speaker 1: how do I feel about myself? I think that's a
Speaker 1: really important decision and choice we get to make every day.
Speaker 1: Is who am I? And how do I feel about
Speaker 1: who I am and who I want to be? How
Speaker 1: do I feel about myself? Now, when we get there,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to a principle that's going to help. Please,
Speaker 1: I'm going to pull pull it out of you. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: so what do you do do you then, as you're
Speaker 1: making these choices, say, I'm experiencing this and therefore I
Speaker 1: feel better, and then therefore that helps guide me on
Speaker 1: what I should do. Yeah. So I think with that one,
Speaker 1: I think we're very aligned on the aspect of nature.
Speaker 1: I think we're very aligned on that. It's why I
Speaker 1: love the principles you assessment, like the idea of knowing
Speaker 1: that there is a wiring in the way that we've
Speaker 1: been created and evolved that allows us to be effective.
Speaker 1: And so for me, I have a short formula for that,
Speaker 1: and it's passion plus strengths plus service. So I believe
Speaker 1: that your passion is what makes you happy, and when
Speaker 1: you use your passion in the service of others, it
Speaker 1: makes other people happy. And so when you add your
Speaker 1: passion to your strengths and you add it to service
Speaker 1: or contribution, it equals what it equals purpose Okay, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So people have to have a purpose, okay, and that
Speaker 1: equals the passion plus the strengths, right plus contribution or
Speaker 1: service the ability to use that in the service Okay,
Speaker 1: there we go. There's a formula there, right, there's a principle. Yes, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the general. That's the general. Like, that's the first
Speaker 1: that's only the first decision, and that's the formula for
Speaker 1: the first decision. Overarching, overarching. Yeah. Like that For me
Speaker 1: has been my dedication is to help people figure out
Speaker 1: their purpose because I believe that if we have people
Speaker 1: of purpose, there'll be better people. There'll be better partners,
Speaker 1: there'll be better parents, they'll be better professionals. Because I
Speaker 1: think what's missing in the world is a feeling of
Speaker 1: individual and collective value. I see, and then they know
Speaker 1: that they're getting it because of how they feel about themselves. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think when you yeah, when you have purpose, you whatever.
Speaker 1: What's fascinating about purpose is I think one of the
Speaker 1: and this is probably quite a nuance, but one of
Speaker 1: the signs of a lack of purpose is that we
Speaker 1: envy everyone. We want to be like everyone. We look
Speaker 1: at what someone doesn't. I wish I could do that.
Speaker 1: I wish I could do that. When one finds a
Speaker 1: sense of purpose, one can actually appreciate someone else for
Speaker 1: what they do really well, because you realize that's their
Speaker 1: nature and that's what they were born to do. And
Speaker 1: this is mine and this is what I was born
Speaker 1: to do. And so there's a lack of envy I
Speaker 1: think is a great indicator to a sense of purpose.
Speaker 1: Like I love what you do. I admire what you do.
Speaker 1: I could never do what you did over all these years,
Speaker 1: not because I'm insignificant or invaluable. I'm not smart. It's
Speaker 1: just because my sparts are different and I'm meant to
Speaker 1: be following a different part. And we so agree knowing
Speaker 1: what your nature is and getting that feedback. And by
Speaker 1: the way, and we both like principles you as a
Speaker 1: way as a step toward or towards that. What about
Speaker 1: the life are Yes? The second most important decision applies
Speaker 1: to the first is what do I do for money?
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the that's the same and
Speaker 1: that applies to what we said it so that that
Speaker 1: applies to the two things. Those first two things are
Speaker 1: solved by the equation we just discussed, Like what do
Speaker 1: I do for money? That's an important decision we have
Speaker 1: to make in life. Everyone needs to make money, everyone
Speaker 1: needs to pay bills. So that's already there. The third
Speaker 1: most important decision we make in life. I don't want
Speaker 1: to skip over. Can we drill into that or should
Speaker 1: we go to the next No, son, we can drill
Speaker 1: into that, I think, yeah, we can drill into that absolutely.
Speaker 1: How do you approach that question? I think that's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Some parts of it apply to the nature aspect,
Speaker 1: and I think the part that is missed mostly in that.
Speaker 1: And I love the author of Flow who talked about
Speaker 1: the beautiful synergy between our challenge and our skills. So
Speaker 1: he said that we experienced flow when our challenge meets
Speaker 1: our skills. When our skills are high and our challenge
Speaker 1: is low, we feel bored, we feel disconnected, we feel disengaged.
Speaker 1: But when our challeng lenges high and our skills are low,
Speaker 1: we feel depressed, we feel lost, we feel confused. And
Speaker 1: so if we want to feel experience flow in life,
Speaker 1: we have to find where our skills meet our challenge.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's where how what we do for money?
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest mistakes we make is
Speaker 1: today people are only focusing on passion and not building
Speaker 1: their skills and their strengths. And so to me, when
Speaker 1: you're figuring out what you want to do, for money.
Speaker 1: You have to figure out what skill am I willing
Speaker 1: to get really good at? What am I genuinely willing
Speaker 1: to discipline myself to become phenomenal at right? And if
Speaker 1: I can do that, then that's a good thing you're saying,
Speaker 1: and which I agree with them, as we covered know
Speaker 1: your nature and discover it along the way. But also
Speaker 1: for me, it's if I can make my work and
Speaker 1: passion the same thing and not forget about the money part, yes,
Speaker 1: then I am going to probably be successful because I'll
Speaker 1: be happy. I'll also be good at what I'm doing, yes,
Speaker 1: And the money part is an important part that you
Speaker 1: can't forget about, absolutely absolutely. I think. Another principle ideally
Speaker 1: is to be self sufficient plus. What I mean by
Speaker 1: self sufficient plus is that you're not dependent on the
Speaker 1: money coming from anybody else if you can right that,
Speaker 1: because you then have if it doesn't come from anyone else.
Speaker 1: In that way, first, you're raising yourself to the level
Speaker 1: to be self sufficient, and I don't really care whether
Speaker 1: that's at a high level of income or a low
Speaker 1: level of income. The important thing is that you are
Speaker 1: happy that you pursue goals, and that happiness and that
Speaker 1: particular thing. But if you're self sufficient plus, it means
Speaker 1: you're free, you're self sufficient, and it means also that
Speaker 1: you can help others if you because you've got some plus.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about where that's one of mine?
Speaker 1: What about yours? In terms of that measurement about money?
Speaker 1: How do you approach money? What is the right amount
Speaker 1: of money? Yeah, I would say that we're very aligned.
Speaker 1: I think the right amount of money is what's right
Speaker 1: for you and what you're creating. But I love the
Speaker 1: self sufficient plus. Because I had this conversation, I had
Speaker 1: to really rewire my relationship with money as I grew older,
Speaker 1: because I was kind of trained to believe that I
Speaker 1: always needed just enough. I always grew up with just enough.
Speaker 1: I saw zero in my bank I started working when
Speaker 1: I was fourteen and saw zero in my bank account
Speaker 1: for many, many years, and that was fine. It was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I had just enough. I paid for that thing. Okay,
Speaker 1: if I have zero, that's good. Like I lived like
Speaker 1: that from fourteen to twenty one, and when I went
Speaker 1: back into the world of work, I just realized how
Speaker 1: that was not the way to live. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: I lived that way because I had luxuries or it
Speaker 1: was just what I had. It wasn't that I was
Speaker 1: wasting money. It was just that I never knew how
Speaker 1: to make it, keep it, save it, invest it. And
Speaker 1: so when I rewired my relationship with money, I love
Speaker 1: self sufficiency plus because to me, I also realized that
Speaker 1: being able to contribute, being able to give back, being
Speaker 1: able to haws on was such a healthy part of it.
Speaker 1: But so often we're trained that simplicity is having enough
Speaker 1: for yourself, but having enough should include being able to
Speaker 1: also give whatever that may be. The same experience happened
Speaker 1: to me, And we're talking about the life arc like
Speaker 1: for me up until I guess it was probably it
Speaker 1: was certainly my early twenties. I was exactly like you, like,
Speaker 1: I like to do the things I like to do.
Speaker 1: If I've got enough money to do them, I'm having
Speaker 1: a blast. I don't need any more than that. Yes,
Speaker 1: And then I got to a point where I started
Speaker 1: to calculate how many weeks I could live if not
Speaker 1: a dollar came in. Okay, if I could live, Can
Speaker 1: I live a month? Can I live twelve months? I
Speaker 1: would calculate if I'm spending it this and I have this,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to live have enough freedom of that
Speaker 1: worry that I could have that amount. And I got
Speaker 1: to the point where it was about three years. If
Speaker 1: I could have three years, then I knew, like I'm downtime,
Speaker 1: and that gives me enough wiggle room. And so I
Speaker 1: started to realize that if I took the amount of
Speaker 1: money I had by the rate at which I spend it,
Speaker 1: and I calculated how long it would last, that that
Speaker 1: gave me that kind of perspective and that and that
Speaker 1: and then I have a family. Yeah, and then as
Speaker 1: I start to think of the family, that number changes.
Speaker 1: And of course what like you say, everybody then is
Speaker 1: an investor, correct, because everybody's how has that has to
Speaker 1: put it somewhere. I got to know about it, but
Speaker 1: I had the same experience. I think that experience is
Speaker 1: part of the life arc. Yes, you know and earlier
Speaker 1: part of your life reassuring to hear that it's normal.
Speaker 1: Then you get to a certain other part of your life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing for me, and the
Speaker 1: measure that I give people is that, let's say, when
Speaker 1: you start your work life. Hopefully it isn't this case,
Speaker 1: but I think for the majority of people. It will
Speaker 1: be when you first start your career, one hundred percent
Speaker 1: of your time at work is potentially doing something you
Speaker 1: don't love. And I think it's good for you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good for you. It's important. It's builds resilience and
Speaker 1: builds character. It's great. But I think success and happiness
Speaker 1: to me is that as life goes on, that percentage
Speaker 1: starts to get lower and low. I think it is.
Speaker 1: I think it's just that you do things for me anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that I do things that I don't love because
Speaker 1: I get things that I love more. Yes, I couldn't
Speaker 1: agree more. I say that along my life today when
Speaker 1: everyone's like, oh, yeah, you must love your life, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I do plenty of things that I don't
Speaker 1: love to do in order to make time and space
Speaker 1: to do what I love to do and do more
Speaker 1: of I fully agree. But I think that percentage needs
Speaker 1: to shift because you don't want one hundred percent of
Speaker 1: your time at work to be doing something you don't love.
Speaker 1: Another principle I would say, and I want to get
Speaker 1: your thoughts, I'm gonna pull out. Your principle is own
Speaker 1: it and don't be the victim. What I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: that person who describes you know, this terrible thing and
Speaker 1: also tends to blame others. I didn't this thing happened,
Speaker 1: and that thing happened is probably not looking at it
Speaker 1: as what do I do in this chest lit game
Speaker 1: of life that is now having these things come at me?
Speaker 1: Where if you own it and you say, listen, this
Speaker 1: is your game, this is your life, and these things
Speaker 1: come at you and now it's your move, and you've
Speaker 1: got to make those moves, right, So you're thinking, not
Speaker 1: woe is me, but you're thinking, Okay, now I've got
Speaker 1: to do that. Yes, I think that's an important approach
Speaker 1: to life. What do you think of and what it's
Speaker 1: or your version of something like that. Feel free to
Speaker 1: totally disagree. No, no, I wish. I mean I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking I wish I disagree with you. I don't because
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of similarities. I've always got it.
Speaker 1: Changed the situation, change yourself, and it's like I think
Speaker 1: a lot of us, those are two choices. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the time we put a lot
Speaker 1: of energy into changing a situation, and to me, that's
Speaker 1: a lot of the time that's out of our control.
Speaker 1: What we were discussing, like, I can't decide the weather today.
Speaker 1: I can't decide whether someone's going to like me because
Speaker 1: of how I behave with them. I can't change someone's
Speaker 1: complete energy or or towards me. I can't always change
Speaker 1: the situation, but I can change how I view it.
Speaker 1: I can change myself. And Wayne Diet had a beautiful
Speaker 1: statement where he said that when we change the way
Speaker 1: we look at things, the things we look at change.
Speaker 1: And I think that's always been very important to me,
Speaker 1: is that if I can't change the situation, how can
Speaker 1: I look at it differently? How can I change the
Speaker 1: lens through which I'm perceiving this? So I hear that
Speaker 1: connected to the thing that you said earlier about whether
Speaker 1: you're feeling good for yourself. Yeah, And it brings up
Speaker 1: another is don't worry so much about the approval of others. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great one. I mean, that's that's a huge one.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's at the core of so much of this.
Speaker 1: It's I talk about in my book Think like a Monk.
Speaker 1: I talk about the four seas for the four types
Speaker 1: of people you'll meet in your life. And the problem
Speaker 1: is we're trying to find one person to do all
Speaker 1: the four of them. So some people in your life
Speaker 1: are going to have character. You go to them because
Speaker 1: you know they have high character. That's why you trust them.
Speaker 1: They may not always be around, they may not always
Speaker 1: be available, they may not be you know, they may
Speaker 1: not be next to you every day, but you go
Speaker 1: to them because you know, if you want to make
Speaker 1: a decision with high integrity, that person is a person
Speaker 1: of high character. Then you have someone in your life
Speaker 1: who's consistently there. You have someone who's always been your friend.
Speaker 1: They've always been around. They don't necessarily give the best
Speaker 1: advice to the worst advice, but they're consistent, they're they're
Speaker 1: they're with you. They will go through the trenches with you,
Speaker 1: and they're consistent. They don't always have the best next
Speaker 1: move or the best idea or insight, but they have
Speaker 1: value in the fact that they're loyal, they're consistent, but
Speaker 1: that is their value. And knowing that. The third is care.
Speaker 1: Someone who cares about you. Always give the idea of
Speaker 1: my mother, Like if I called my mom right now,
Speaker 1: it's like Mom, I with Ray. I just intervieed Ray Dalio.
Speaker 1: I learned she would just be like, have you eaten today?
Speaker 1: Like that's what my mom would ask me, she said,
Speaker 1: what did you have for breakfast? And be like, Mom,
Speaker 1: like I just smoked to Ray and she'd be like,
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, what did you have for breakfast? What
Speaker 1: are you hanging for lunch? Right, that's it's someone who
Speaker 1: cares for me. I'm not necessarily going to go to
Speaker 1: my mom to ask her for advice for my podcast,
Speaker 1: but I know she's the person that cares for me,
Speaker 1: like I know she will be there for me no
Speaker 1: matter what. And the final one is competence. There are
Speaker 1: people in our life who are high competence. They may
Speaker 1: not care about us, they may not have high character,
Speaker 1: but they're very competent in what they do, and I
Speaker 1: may take advice from them in that So to me
Speaker 1: knowing who to get approval of in different areas. If
Speaker 1: I try and get career approval from my mom, she
Speaker 1: may never give it to me because she's not happy
Speaker 1: for me to be on a plane and she's not
Speaker 1: happy for me to be running around and missing meals.
Speaker 1: She doesn't approve of that. At the same time, I
Speaker 1: don't need my spiritual teacher. For example, I go to
Speaker 1: him because he's a high character. But if I asked
Speaker 1: him for business advice, he'd say to me, well, this
Speaker 1: is my integrity principle. But he's not necessarily going to
Speaker 1: give me in advice. So I think becoming very clear
Speaker 1: about who I went to approval for what became very useful.
Speaker 1: You see, Um, these are coming out nice and quickly.
Speaker 1: It's like playing jazz, you know. Yes, there's something that
Speaker 1: happens really quickly, and it happens, but very important to
Speaker 1: slow that down because I'm going to be able to
Speaker 1: take this Okay, Yes, I have no no, this is
Speaker 1: playing jazz. Okay, I'm saying then to convert it to
Speaker 1: principles so that somebody can look it up. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: is going to be This is why it's so great
Speaker 1: because I can take what you've done and we can
Speaker 1: put it there and then somebody says, when I go
Speaker 1: for that moment, how do I push the button and
Speaker 1: get the answer. Yeah, right, it's gonna be okay. That
Speaker 1: that's this is this is an important thing. It's going
Speaker 1: to be fantastic, right, So I want to just keep
Speaker 1: pulling these things from you, right, Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to do more and and you know
Speaker 1: I won't. We won't go into depth on these decisions
Speaker 1: three and decision four. The third most important as we
Speaker 1: make in life is who do we give our love
Speaker 1: to and who do we receive love from? And it's
Speaker 1: a huge decision, the most maybe the most maybe the
Speaker 1: one of the most important, one of the most important decisions,
Speaker 1: the most important decision. I just just that I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to me. No, I want to hear from you. I
Speaker 1: was just at my one my son's weddings, and I
Speaker 1: was just describing what it is and the piece that
Speaker 1: I have, and I was making the point, which I
Speaker 1: truly believe, is who you pick as your life partner,
Speaker 1: the person you wake up with in the morning, and
Speaker 1: who was in that life partner is the most important
Speaker 1: decision you can make. Probably it's it's certainly right up there.
Speaker 1: So you're touching on that. So I didn't mean to no, no,
Speaker 1: I want to I mean no, hearing about your sons,
Speaker 1: I fully agree. That's what I hear you say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's exactly that. And I think for me, I
Speaker 1: broke that down from from research, from coaches, from working
Speaker 1: with clients in that space who have been married for
Speaker 1: a lot longer than I have, and of course it
Speaker 1: would be wonderful to get your feedback, and wonderful Jim,
Speaker 1: who's both of our book agents as well, who's had
Speaker 1: a very long marriage himself, And so I'm always stress
Speaker 1: testing my ideas with Jim. I'm saying, Jim, what do
Speaker 1: you think of this? But I came with three things.
Speaker 1: The first thing is this is the obvious one. It's
Speaker 1: like liking someone's personality. You have to like them, they
Speaker 1: have to like it. That's obvious. We know that there's
Speaker 1: a sense of compatibility more than just chemistry. I think
Speaker 1: people often I was liking recently an analogy of like
Speaker 1: chemistry is like a spark, Like you like a match.
Speaker 1: There's like the spark, you hit, the sound, you see
Speaker 1: the fire, but then the flame is going to burn out.
Speaker 1: The match is gonna last like this long. But if
Speaker 1: you use that match to burn a candle, that candle
Speaker 1: is going to give sent forever. It's gonna last, It's
Speaker 1: gonna burn and be beautiful for so many people to experience.
Speaker 1: So that's that compatibility piece. The second piece, which I
Speaker 1: think is rare, is like a deep awareness and respect
Speaker 1: for each other's values. So I think if you really
Speaker 1: love someone, they don't necessarily have the exact same values.
Speaker 1: I don't think they have. They have similar versions, but
Speaker 1: they're never exactly the same. And I think respecting and
Speaker 1: being aware and encouraging the other person towards their values
Speaker 1: is really healthy. So I always give the example of
Speaker 1: me and my wife. My wife her first value is family,
Speaker 1: that's her number one value, and my number one value
Speaker 1: is purpose. They're very different and they can be conflicting often.
Speaker 1: I want to be on a plane when we have
Speaker 1: a family event. I'm at an event when we're doing this.
Speaker 1: But we found a way of respecting each other's values
Speaker 1: and then showing each other that we respect it, but
Speaker 1: we're not forcing each other to have the same value
Speaker 1: because we're different people. And then the third and final
Speaker 1: one I found is a dedication to helping that person
Speaker 1: get to their goals, for them to reach their potential.
Speaker 1: That I love you so much that I'm going to
Speaker 1: help you get to your goal. Not my projection of
Speaker 1: who you should be or who I wish for you
Speaker 1: to be, but who you want to be. I'm going
Speaker 1: to help you because I think that's the greatest act
Speaker 1: of love is that if you really love someone, you
Speaker 1: want to see them become the best version. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: very excited about taking these and them in the writing
Speaker 1: and pushing the buttons. So everybody, I'm excited. And they're
Speaker 1: only my new book, Eight Rules of Love, so that
Speaker 1: comes out next year, Eight Rules of Love. Okay, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: And have you taken the test of five types of
Speaker 1: love that I have? Yes, yes, very good. It's a
Speaker 1: great test. Yeah, it was so interesting to see if
Speaker 1: we did it at family you know, yes, my son's
Speaker 1: daughter in laws. And what are yours? I'm interested? What
Speaker 1: are your love languages? I want? Well, i'm acts of
Speaker 1: love okay, acts of service, yeah, I am not the compliments, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: no words of affirmations right right, yeah, don't give me
Speaker 1: the words. Good to know. And it's so interesting because, um,
Speaker 1: I see it all the time in our relationship. Yes,
Speaker 1: so being able to articulate that, yes, I forgot what
Speaker 1: the ones are. There's there's words of affirmation, such a gift,
Speaker 1: touch and time and time qualities yeah, quality time that's
Speaker 1: important too. But I see it when we did the
Speaker 1: little test, and we did it, we could see where
Speaker 1: sometimes it was going like that, Yes, yeah, oh yeah, completely,
Speaker 1: it could be totally opposite. Yeah. In other words, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm giving you something, yeah, and you're not appreciating it
Speaker 1: because you're looking for the other type exactly. And it's
Speaker 1: so handy to do, and these personality profile tests are
Speaker 1: valuable in finding out our nature and operating that way.
Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to your book. No, thank you.
Speaker 1: I think what you're doing in extragal principles and putting
Speaker 1: them in one place, I think that's really special because, yeah,
Speaker 1: if I went through my first book and now my
Speaker 1: second book, there's so many principles in there, but like
Speaker 1: you said, you know you have to flick pages to
Speaker 1: find them. To be able to just search into an
Speaker 1: engine is a brilliant I created a what I call
Speaker 1: a coach and it's in this there's principles for action.
Speaker 1: And the way it works is because I was thinking,
Speaker 1: what do I need an answer to and then it
Speaker 1: gets you to the right prince. Yeah. Yeah, because if
Speaker 1: you have a book of principles, you don't have that access.
Speaker 1: So the app is needed to be able to say, okay,
Speaker 1: here I am, I'm in this situation poem button get
Speaker 1: the right ones because you'll never find them, You'll never
Speaker 1: raise that book again. Yeah, why not use it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Absolutely much quicker and easily accessible. And I think the
Speaker 1: fourth one to finish it off, to finish of my
Speaker 1: piece at least, was the fourth most important decision in
Speaker 1: the world is that we make in our lives is
Speaker 1: how do we serve the world? How do we how
Speaker 1: do we help the world. And it's interesting to hear
Speaker 1: you because those four decisions that I talked about, they
Speaker 1: moved through the four stages of life as defined by
Speaker 1: the Vaders, which is what I studied as a monk.
Speaker 1: And so the four stages which I've reconfigured into my
Speaker 1: language a love yourself, love, heal from pain, and then
Speaker 1: love the world. And I feel like that's the journey
Speaker 1: that we're being encouraged to go on in life. Is
Speaker 1: we first have to learn to love ourselves. Second, we
Speaker 1: learn to love others, wives, kids, families. Third, we have
Speaker 1: to actually heal from the pain of love, because sometimes
Speaker 1: love can you know, there's a few thorns along the way,
Speaker 1: there's a few challenges, and I feel sometimes we hold
Speaker 1: onto that bitterness, and when you cure that bitterness, you
Speaker 1: actually get the ability to love everyone. Love everyone you
Speaker 1: meet and love the world. So the fourth stage is
Speaker 1: how do we learn to serve the world, how do
Speaker 1: we contribute to the world, which you're demonstrating at this
Speaker 1: stage in your life where you're like, I want to
Speaker 1: give back, I want to I want to help. And
Speaker 1: so that's the fourth one, and it's so wise. I
Speaker 1: think that I didn't really appreciate in the middle part
Speaker 1: of my life the power of love. I think that
Speaker 1: there's accomplishment and your focus in accomplishment. Yeah, and sometimes
Speaker 1: that has conflict, and you do the conflict, but you
Speaker 1: don't realize how enjoyable love is, how enjoyable giving love
Speaker 1: is and receiving love is, or being in a loving community,
Speaker 1: which is also one of the reasons that the environment
Speaker 1: that I perceive now is so repugnant to me because
Speaker 1: it has so much the opposite of love. It has
Speaker 1: so much hate, it has so much anger, it has
Speaker 1: so much fighting in it that's so destructive, that's so toxic.
Speaker 1: So that love and a society that it has that Oh,
Speaker 1: it is true that the greatest joy you get is
Speaker 1: that experience of helping others and them and the connections
Speaker 1: and all of that, and it produces an environment that
Speaker 1: you want to be in. Absolutely absolutely, and I think
Speaker 1: that for those who are listening and love feels ethereal
Speaker 1: or elusive, I think as a basic for me, love
Speaker 1: is like safety plus understanding. Right. If someone feels safe
Speaker 1: and someone feels understood, that is the beginning of love.
Speaker 1: It isn't love in itself, but people need to feel
Speaker 1: a sense like I feel safe with you and I
Speaker 1: feel understood by you. You know, that's the beginnings of
Speaker 1: that feeling. And in a workplace, safety and understanding are
Speaker 1: very core aspects that could easily be implemented, and even
Speaker 1: in a relationship. My view of what love is is
Speaker 1: that I feel what you feel so that it brings
Speaker 1: me happiness. Yeah, because you have a relationship that ah,
Speaker 1: you're well, yes, you're happy. Yes, and that brings me happiness. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Feeling other people's pain,
Speaker 1: feeling other people's love, like being able to have that
Speaker 1: ability it hurts me, yeah, if it brings me joy,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, that is love. That is really beautiful
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think that's what It's so crazy. We've
Speaker 1: talked about so many different topics that are and it's
Speaker 1: amazing how how love is that one unifying force that
Speaker 1: we're all seeking for. But it's almost like there's just
Speaker 1: so many We've created so many barriers to love because
Speaker 1: we think love makes us weaker to some degree. We
Speaker 1: feel that feeling someone else's pain or feeling someone else's
Speaker 1: joy somehow takes it away from us, and think, like
Speaker 1: a monk, I call it. I say that there are
Speaker 1: unlimited seats in the theater of happiness, But we're living
Speaker 1: in a world that has made us believe there are
Speaker 1: a finite number of seats. Because now, if you want
Speaker 1: to go see a big sports game, there are a
Speaker 1: finite number of seats. There are a finite number of
Speaker 1: VIP tickets, and so that mindset has made us believe
Speaker 1: that even in the theater of happiness, there are a
Speaker 1: finite number of seats. But be reassured that your name
Speaker 1: is on a seat and you can claim it and
Speaker 1: no one else can have that seat. It's there waiting
Speaker 1: for you. And well, for me, love works in that
Speaker 1: it reinforces my well being and it reinforces my joy
Speaker 1: because it's part of that evolutionary process because I also
Speaker 1: get what your happiness is, and that's the sense because
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Psychologists in terms of what has produced happiness,
Speaker 1: they show that past a certain basic level of income
Speaker 1: or money, there's not a correlation between happiness and money. Yes,
Speaker 1: the highest is community across societies. If you have a
Speaker 1: sense of community, Yeah, you have a higher level of happiness,
Speaker 1: You live longer, all of those things. That is love,
Speaker 1: that is connectivity. I think that's a real power. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like saying like it's not about the journey,
Speaker 1: it's not about the destination, it's about community, Like that's
Speaker 1: the key thing. Meaningful work and meaningful relationships is a
Speaker 1: powerful combination. Yeah, well I could do this with so
Speaker 1: could I mean we can literally, I'm so glad you
Speaker 1: did this jazz right, Yeah, this is beautiful. I'm sorry
Speaker 1: happy that you flifted back on me. I got to
Speaker 1: share some things that I haven't really talked about in
Speaker 1: that way yet aspect more. Yes, I'm going to organize it.
Speaker 1: I want to help thee. Yeah, I'm more that we
Speaker 1: put those principles in a good way. I think that
Speaker 1: is such a genius idea. Honestly, I'm all in any
Speaker 1: any help and supple I can give to formatting, sharing, amplifying.
Speaker 1: I'm in great, it sounds incredible. Great, honestly, the world
Speaker 1: will be a better place. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1: What is it called? This is the app This is
Speaker 1: on the apple, This is separate to the end. Well,
Speaker 1: this is going to be built out on the appect.
Speaker 1: We have the means by which we can collect them.
Speaker 1: Now we haven't built the voting them up yet, so
Speaker 1: there's going to be a connected to this. Yeah. All
Speaker 1: people will input their principles and we're going to have
Speaker 1: all of these things and they can go on and
Speaker 1: they say Jay's principles. Yeah, that'll exist. That's so cool. Um,
Speaker 1: and take a clip of this tape and put it
Speaker 1: on or whatever it is so that people can see it.
Speaker 1: But the voting up was building, so that has to
Speaker 1: be built. That's brilliant. And we have a tool called
Speaker 1: the coach that will help to get them to the
Speaker 1: right principles. But that's got to be built up more.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, we figure out the coach as well.
Speaker 1: There will be some synergies. There's oh, okay, i'll show
Speaker 1: you the show me that. Yeah, because we have the
Speaker 1: first version exactly, and I love your feedback and you're
Speaker 1: talking about how to do that incredible. Yeah, it's cool,
Speaker 1: amazing everyone who's been listening and watching, I hope you've
Speaker 1: enjoyed the jazz. I can't play any instruments anymore. I
Speaker 1: don't know if Ray still plays that. My dad was
Speaker 1: a jazz music really and I can't play. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: learned the piano and the drum ket now I can't
Speaker 1: play either. But either way, I hope you enjoyed the music.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to sit down with Ray to have
Speaker 1: this free flowing conversation. These are my favorite conversations where
Speaker 1: I literally feel like we're just co creating, collaborating, inventing together.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend that you grab a copy of the
Speaker 1: journal My Principles. It's out right now. We've referred to
Speaker 1: a lot of different things, books, and apps in the conversation.
Speaker 1: We'll put them all in the show notes so you
Speaker 1: have access to each of them. We have interviews with
Speaker 1: Ray on Principles, You Changing World Order and Principles as
Speaker 1: well on the show, so if you want to go
Speaker 1: back and reference those, please feel free. A big thank
Speaker 1: you to Ray for being so generous with your time.
Speaker 1: I think we've been together for a couple of hours.
Speaker 1: I'm so thank you Jay. This is fun to play.
Speaker 1: J Ryan Day