1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth. Well, we get 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today, 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: we're talking China with Gordon Chang. He is the author 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: of multiple books on China. But with majority's removal and 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Iran's leadership and military decimated in Operation Epic Fury, how 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: does this. 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: All impact China. 8 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: I know that China uses countries like Venezuela and Iran 9 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: as proxies, so what's the impact on China. 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: Also, Iran and Venezuela. 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Have both been armed with Chinese radar and aarrat defense 12 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: systems that have proven essentially useless against the United States 13 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: and Israeli attacks. So does that make China more likely 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: or less likely to try to take Taiwan? Also, China 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: has been dependent on crude from Venezuela and Iran at 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: discounted prices because of the sanctions. How does that impact 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: China's economy. We're going to dig into all this, you know, 18 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: taking on sort of a different angle to the Venezuela 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: and Iran situations from the prism of China. Stay tuned 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: for Gordon Chang. Well, Gordon, it's always great to have 21 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: you on the show. Appreciate you making time for us, 22 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: so thank you so much. 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Lisa, I really appreciate it. 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. 25 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: So we've seen a lot of development throughout the old 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: President Trump's been very active. We've seen it since we've 27 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: last had you on the show. President Trump has captured 28 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: Maduro in Venezuela and we've also gone to war in 29 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: Iran as well. When you look at those actions, how 30 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: much of that is to counter China welco us through 31 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: the China angle to those two specific actions. 32 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 3: Both Venezuela and Iran were Chinese proxies. I'm sure that 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: the Venezuelans and the Iranians student view it that way, 34 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: but the Chinese certainly did. And both of those regimes 35 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: were able to maintain themselves because of Beijing. So, for instance, 36 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: when you look at Iran, China was taking about ninety 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 3: percent of Iran's exports of crude oil eighty seven point 38 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: two percent last year. But also China was giving diplomatic support, 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 3: propaganda support to Tehran, weapons support. When you look at 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: the Iranian drones, they've got computer chips in them. Those 41 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: computer chips are probably Chinese made or were sent into 42 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 3: Iran through Chinese intermediaries. In other words, China was buying 43 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: those on the black market and sending them to the Iranians. 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: Iran's nuclear weapons program is largely a Chinese program, and 45 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: Iran's terrorist proxies, Hamas and the Huthi militia all have 46 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: large quantities of Chinese weapons. You put that all together 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: and it's clear that c. Jimping was using Iran to 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: disrupt the world. And you can make the same argument 49 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 3: with Venezuela because the support there was also extensive. The 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 3: Chavez and the Maduro regimes were in place because Beijing 51 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: was supporting them with money and of course with weapons 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 3: and diplomatic and began to support. 53 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: And so what is China get out of that? 54 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: Tell Us expand upon a little bit more about how 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: China uses these proxies and why China uses them. 56 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 3: I think that Siegimping, who revers Mao Zadung, the founder 57 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 3: of the People's Republic, took two pages out of Mao's 58 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: peasant movement playbook. One of them was Mao prevailed in 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: the Chinese Civil War in nineteen forty nine by quote 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: encircling the cities from the countryside, a famous phrase now 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: in Communist Party, Lingo and basically Sijiping was using Iran 62 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: and Venezuela to surround the United States, which they considered 63 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 3: to be the city. The other page from Mao's playbook 64 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: was the promotion of chaos, and clearly Iran was creating 65 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: chaos in the Middle East. Venezuela was eating chaos at 66 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: our southern border. If you remember during the Biden administration, 67 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 3: those caravans that were traveling up through Central America and 68 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 3: Mexico into the United States. A lot of part of 69 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: that was not organic, that was organized by Venezuela with 70 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 3: Venezuelan money and subtle support. So clearly we have Caracas 71 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: and Tron being used by Beijing. So that's why I 72 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: think that you can call those two regimes proxies of China, 73 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: or at least you could now no longer. 74 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: You know, you had mentioned that Iran and its proxies 75 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: have been dependent on Chinese software, Chinese weaponry. You know, 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: you look at just how easy it seems to be 77 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: to decimate Auran in short order, as well as its 78 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: proxies with the United States and Israel. What message does 79 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: it'send China that the outside of the drones has had 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: a really easy time sort of decapitating Iran's military. 81 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: There are a number of messages there. One of them, 82 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: of course, is the superb performance of the US military. 83 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: But more important, it tells the Chinese that the United 84 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: States is willing to use force to achieve its goals, 85 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 3: and those goals also help peace and order in the world. 86 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 3: So I think it has an important message for siegent Ping. 87 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 3: I mean, he looks at the United States and even 88 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: certainly Biden and even Trump. Up through last year, CG 89 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: Ping looked at American presidents as things to be pushed around. 90 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: He pushed around Biden, He even pushed around Trump last year. 91 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that the Chinese view of the 92 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 3: United States is right, but they thought the United States 93 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 3: was in terminal decline, and that made China very very aggressive. 94 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: You come to January three of this year, your President 95 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 3: Trump extracts Maduro and his wife from Caracas, and I 96 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 3: think the Chinese then start to look at the United 97 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 3: States and President Trump in a very different light. And 98 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: I think they're worried right now about our president. That's 99 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 3: a good thing, because when the Chinese are worried about US, 100 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 3: it means they are cautious, and when they're cautious, they 101 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 3: tend not to do things that are adverse to our 102 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 3: interests or the interests of the international community writ large. 103 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: You know, do you think there's any part because I've 104 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: been kind of thinking through this question on my head, 105 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: which you kind of just answered it in terms of 106 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 1: does this all make China less likely or more likely 107 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: to try to take Taiwan? Because, on the one hand, 108 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: in the United States is bogged down right now, right 109 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: from a manpower perspective, as well as you know, going 110 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: through our stockpiles both in being involved in what's going 111 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: on in Ukraine and Europe, as well as you know 112 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: Venezuela now and then are on potentially Cuba. You know, 113 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: So does China look at that and say, hey, look 114 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: they're distracted. Now is the time? Or you know what 115 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean, Like, I guess kind of what what do 116 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: you think the thought processed in China is right now? 117 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: That's a critical question, and I think they look at 118 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 3: it from a number of different perspectives. First of all, 119 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: they do look at the United States as being tied 120 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: down around the world, and you know, in a theoretical sense, 121 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 3: I do believe that they see that this is an 122 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: opportunity to, for instance, take Taiwan, but it almost doesn't matter. 123 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 3: And the reason is that the Chinese military right now 124 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: is not capable of starting hostilities by invading the main 125 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 3: island of Taiwan. So whatever the Chinese think about us, 126 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 3: they know that they are not ready. The Chinese military 127 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: has been decimated with Siejimping's purges. So, for instance, on 128 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: January twenty fourth, the Ministry of National Defense announced the 129 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: investigation of two generals. One of them was General John 130 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: Yao Chao, who is then the number one uniformed officer 131 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 3: in the Chinese military, the first vice chairman of the 132 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: Communist Party's Central Military Commission. The Central Military Commission of 133 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: the Party controls the Chinese military, and right now, because 134 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: of the purges, this seven member group only has two 135 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: sitting members that Si Jianping himself, who of course is 136 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: not a military officer, and a political commissar. There are 137 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: no operational officers left on the Chinese Central Military Commission, 138 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: so the chain of command has been severed. It's been 139 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: severed for the first time in the history of the 140 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 3: People's Republic. And there are a lot of other reasons 141 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: why I believe that the Chinese are not ready to 142 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: take Taiwan. 143 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: Now. 144 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: This is not to say that the Chinese military won't 145 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: start a war. I mean they could easily blunder into 146 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: a war, and I think the chance of that is 147 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 3: extremely high for a number of reasons. But in terms 148 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: of the Chinese waking up one day and saying we're 149 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: invading the main island to Taiwan, that's just not likely 150 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 3: for at least some time. And by the way, the 151 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 3: people in Taiwan and the government in Taiwan are cheering 152 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: on the United States in Iran because they know what's 153 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 3: at stake and they realize that a successful American outcome 154 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: in Iran means that they in Taiwan are a lot safer. 155 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: Got to take a quick commercial break. 156 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: More. On the other side, you mentioned there are a 157 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: number of reasons they might blunder into trying to take Taiwan. 158 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: What would those be? 159 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: Cijmping, I think believes that a high degree of tension 160 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 3: is in his personal interest now and that's why we 161 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 3: have been seeing belligerent Chinese conduct from an arc from 162 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 3: India to South Korea in the north. And I think 163 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: that Cgmping believes that this high degree of tension helps him, 164 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 3: not because if it starts a war, he doesn't think 165 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: it's going to rally the Chinese people. The Chinese people 166 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: right now do not want war. But I think that 167 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: he believes that a high degree of tension is in 168 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: his interest because it will prevent other senior Communist Party 169 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 3: figures from challenging or deposing him. You got to think 170 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: about his mentality, and this goes back to the time 171 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 3: that he took power in twenty twelve, when he became 172 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 3: the Communist Party's General Secretary, in other words, the ruler 173 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: of China. He inherited a consensual political system where no 174 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: supreme Chinese leader got either too much credit or too 175 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: much blame, because every decision of consequence was shared across 176 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: the top of the political system, in other words, across 177 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: the polup Buro Standing Committee and sometimes even across the 178 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 3: wider polup Bureau itself. But Sigimping, who grabbed power from 179 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 3: everybody else, ended up with total accountability. Now this is 180 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 3: great if you're cgmping in twenty seventeen, where everything is 181 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: going Chinese way, China's way, and you're getting all the 182 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 3: credit for it. But it's not so great. In twenty 183 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 3: twenty six, when things are definitely not going your way, 184 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: Sigmping is being blamed for policies and correctly being blamed 185 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: because his policies are accelerating China's problems. The other thing, Lisa, 186 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: is that in twenty twelve, when he became General Secretary, 187 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: he inherited a system where if you got drummed out 188 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 3: of the leadership, you got a nice house. But Sigemping 189 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: raised the cost of losing political struggles by jailing his opponents, 190 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: stripping them of their assets, and going hard after their families. 191 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 3: So Sigimping's mentality is, look, I'm being blamed for everything, 192 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: and I could lose everything. I think that he can 193 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 3: just decide to roll the dice, which means China cannot 194 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 3: de escalate, it cannot act constructively if one of these 195 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: incidents that China's provoking goes wrong. That's why I think 196 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: China can blunder into a war. 197 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: What do you think the probability is that this happens 198 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: during the Trump administration, so we're. 199 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: Talking about two years. I think it's a little bit 200 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 3: better than fifty to fifty. I think President Trump can 201 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 3: stare down Siegemping, but it's going to be a very 202 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 3: close run thing. So I'm really very worried about what 203 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 3: Siegimping might do. You know, you get a desperate China 204 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: who knows what these guys are going to do. And 205 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 3: you got to remember that China right now can't solve 206 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 3: its own problems. It has an economy which is failing, 207 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: and the only realistic way for China to save its 208 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 3: economy is to export more, which means they need the 209 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 3: United States to keep barriers down. They need the rest 210 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 3: of the world to do that. So Sigemping has placed 211 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: his fate in the hands of President Trump and other 212 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 3: leaders around the world. This is not a good situation 213 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: for China right now, and I think that that makes 214 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: Sigimping very insecure. 215 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: How strong is China's military because what we're saying with 216 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: Iran at least, and we saw this during the Twelve 217 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: Day War, and then you know now that Iran is 218 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: sort of a paper tiger. 219 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: Is China. 220 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's we only will know once we see them 221 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 3: in action. I think they're not nearly as good as 222 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 3: people say. I think that if you're talking about the 223 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: first week of a war. They probably pretty good. They've 224 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: got all sorts of plans, they're just executing them. But 225 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 3: when they get counterpunched, and that inevitably happens, then I 226 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: think that they don't do very well. And the reason 227 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: is that this is a communist military. Communist militaries have 228 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 3: two reporting lines, a military reporting line and a political 229 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 3: reporting line. Remember the only other member on the Central 230 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: Military Commission, he's a political commissar. He's really powerful because he, 231 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 3: you know, the political reporting line runs through him. Two 232 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: lines of communication and authority in a military just doesn't 233 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: work at all, and it doesn't work in any organization 234 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: for that matter. So for that reason alone, I think 235 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: that China is less capable than it appears with its weapons. 236 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 3: It's got some really good weapons, some weapons that we 237 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 3: don't have, and that's our fault. But the question is 238 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: can China use them effectively? Because tactics are as important 239 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 3: as weapons, as we've seen in Iran, for instance. So 240 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: when you put all that, and one other thing is 241 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 3: that a lot of the weapons are not nearly as 242 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: good as advertised, as we've heard from Bloomberg and other reporting, 243 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 3: you put all that together, I actually think that China's 244 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: military is really good in intimidating others to back down, 245 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: but when it comes to a fight, I just don't 246 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: think that they're up to it. Remember their rumors are 247 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: that General John Yashaut, the guy who was the guy 248 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: who's an investigation was announced on the twenty fourth of January. 249 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: He was telling CJM. Pin, We're not ready to go 250 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: to war. And I think that General Jong, who was 251 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 3: one of the few senior officers who had any wartime experience, 252 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 3: and his wartime experience goes back to nineteen seventy nine 253 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: when China invaded Vietnam in that failed attempt to punish 254 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 3: the Vietnamese. General John was right. The Chinese military is 255 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: not ready to go to war. 256 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: You mentioned China's economy struggling. 257 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: You know, China has been somewhat dependent on discounted crude 258 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: from Venezuela and Iran, So how has that impacted China 259 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: financially On the energy front, this is. 260 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: Not going to be a good story for China, and 261 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: we saw that in the first days after the US 262 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: attack on Iran that gasoline spiked eleven point zero percent, 263 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: and diesel, which is more important for the Chinese economy, 264 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 3: shored a thirteen point five percent, and those numbers are 265 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 3: only going to go up. Now. China will cap prices, 266 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: but it really has only two avenues of significance. One 267 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 3: of them is tapping its strategic petroleum reserve, which we 268 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 3: don't know exactly how much is in it, but some 269 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: people say nine hundred million barrels, some people say one 270 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: point two billion barrels. At most, it's one hundred and 271 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: forty days of cover of imports. The other thing they 272 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: can do is buy from Russia, but the Russians are 273 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: going to jack up the price, and that means, go 274 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: to your point, China's not going to get discounted crude anymore, 275 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 3: and they're going to have to pay in hard currency, 276 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 3: which they don't like doing. They'd rather pay in the REMMB, 277 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 3: their own currency. I mean, this is not a mortal shock, 278 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: but considering everything else that's going on, it really hurts 279 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: China at a crucial time. 280 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: You know, what is the likelihood we've seen and are on, 281 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, mass protests break out across the nation. We've 282 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: seen protests recently in Cuba when as electricity was down 283 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: and also economic hardship felt in both countries. What's the 284 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: likelihood of Chinese protests could they go anywhere? You know, 285 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: how do you see that potentially unfolding? 286 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: China runs the most sophisticated set of and coercive set 287 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: of social controls outside of North Korea. The North Koreans 288 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: are really good at this. The Chinese are second best, 289 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: and so they were able to control the Chinese people 290 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 3: almost all the time. But we have seen periods where 291 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 3: the Chinese people explode. The last time we saw this 292 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 3: was October twenty twenty two, when the workers at an 293 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 3: iPhone factory and Jung Joe in central China just got 294 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 3: sick and tired of the COVID controls. They exploded. They 295 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: scrambled over the fences, They left people around the plant 296 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: at great risks of themselves helped the workers flee as 297 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 3: they scrambled, you know, across fields and down roads. This 298 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 3: was fascinating because it triggered other protests throughout China, just 299 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 3: on COVID controls, on everything else. So in Shanghai in 300 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 3: the following month, people were in the streets chanting down 301 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: with siege and being down with the Communist Party, which 302 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 3: means the sentiment was revolutionary. But these protests continued in 303 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: China until about January of twenty twenty three when they 304 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 3: sort of petered out. But we saw just all segments 305 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 3: of society just express their extreme displeasure at the party. 306 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: Party was able to put this back into the box. 307 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 3: But this tells us that the Chinese people are folliable. 308 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 3: And this is something that we know because in many 309 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 3: traffic accidents in China they end up in fistfights because 310 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: there's just so much repressed anger in society. So yes, 311 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 3: China is able to control people for long periods of 312 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 3: time until it can't and then you know, we don't 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 3: know where this is going. But we've got to remember 314 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 3: the Chinese people right now are very unhappy. It gloomy. 315 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: The one thing that works in the regime's favor is 316 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 3: that they are so depressed and when people don't have help, 317 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 3: they generally don't protest, but they are getting desperate and 318 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: that is a factor on that sparks protest and they 319 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: are angry and the regime could lose its grip. 320 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: Also, Apple restricted some air drop features in China during 321 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: those anti government protests in twenty twenty two, which they 322 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: were using to help circumvent the government or China What Chinese. 323 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: You know, people were walk us through for the controls 324 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: that China has a large part of that is AI driven, 325 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: correct kind. 326 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 3: Of increasingly, so they've got for through. 327 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: Their way, you know, their their means of control. 328 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 3: They're not at last count, which was last year or so, 329 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: like seven hundred million surveillance cameras. They use one point 330 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 3: I forget three points one point three stikes whatever, cell 331 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 3: phones for surveillance. They have social credit system. You know, 332 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: we've got credit, We've got credit reports on every American, 333 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 3: but their credit reports are not just credit, they are 334 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 3: political social behavior. So they've got they're putting together their 335 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 3: nationwide social credit system. The Communist Party has what they 336 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 3: call the neighborhood grannies, you know, generally older people who 337 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 3: watch people coming in and out of their little communities. 338 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: So it is a and the Communist Party itself is 339 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 3: more than one hundred million people. So it is a 340 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 3: total surveillance society, and it is AI technology driven. They 341 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 3: are very good at that, they are pioneering it. The 342 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: only country that comes closer surveillance is North Korea, which 343 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 3: uses different types of surveillance mechanisms than China. Less technology driven, 344 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: more person people driven But the point is this is 345 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 3: the total control society, and we should stop talking about 346 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: China as authoritarian, as a lot of people say, it's 347 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 3: at least semi totalitarian. Lisa and I think even total 348 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: to and would not be inappropriate for describing the Chinese 349 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: state these days. 350 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: Quick breaks stay with us. 351 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: If you like what you're hearing, please share in social 352 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: media or send it to your family and friends. You know, 353 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: as we move toward AI and a more technologically driven 354 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: society or you know, like centralized baking and things like that, 355 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: how concerned are you that, like we could follow in 356 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: those footsteps in terms of giving me the government ability 357 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: to track us and control us. 358 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: Well, the US government has marvelous, they would say, the 359 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 3: ability to surveil us, and we stee not only in 360 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 3: the United States, but you know Britain where all these 361 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 3: surveillance cameras we find all these criminals. Like the guy 362 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: who killed the United Healthcare CEO. He's found in Altoona, Pennsylvania, 363 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 3: because the guy got just tracked as he fled New 364 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 3: York City. So yeah, it is in our society. The 365 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: difference though, between America and China is that our government 366 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: is democratically elected that means if people don't want the surveillance, 367 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 3: they can stop it. Now government has sort of a 368 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 3: momentum of its own, but we can stop it if 369 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 3: we decide that that's what we want. Now the American 370 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: people have you know, there's been a lot of discussion 371 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: in our society about the proper surveillance and it's not 372 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 3: as intrusive as China is because we are a democratic society. 373 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 3: But yeah, I worry about that and it is something 374 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 3: that is a discussion we are going to continue to have, 375 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: especially as technology gives the government more and more means 376 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 3: to control. This is now coming down to this idea 377 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: of a central bank digital currency, which is one of 378 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 3: the means that China is now starting to employ to 379 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 3: control the Chinese people. That is something that we're going 380 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 3: to have to confront. Unfortunately we don't have it now. 381 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 3: But this is basically a surveillance issue. 382 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: And before we go, is there anything I've missed in 383 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: my questioning to you that you want to convey to 384 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: the audience. 385 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 3: I think that this is a crucial time. C Gmpin 386 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: always talks about going to war. It's a constant theme 387 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 3: that he has and one of his favorite phrases is 388 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 3: dare to fight. We Americans tend to think we're at peace, 389 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 3: and because of that, although we are a far stronger 390 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 3: society than China, we can lose our country because we're 391 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 3: not understanding the situation we're in. This is a crucial 392 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 3: time and we need the President of the United States 393 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: to talk to the American people in realistic tones about 394 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: how dangerous the world is right now. Remember, we just 395 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 3: found the second of China's biological weapons facilities on American soil. 396 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 3: That was on January thirty one when Las Vegas Swat 397 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 3: and federal agents descended upon that home in Las Vegas 398 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: and found over a thousand vials of a reddish substance 399 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 3: or substances that was making people deathly well. This is 400 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 3: after December twenty twenty two where authorities in California found 401 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 3: that the secret Chinese biological weapons lab that had more 402 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 3: almost one thousand mice that have been genetically engineered to 403 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 3: spread disease and at least twenty pathogens, some of them 404 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: for deadly diseases like ebola. So the Chinese are really 405 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 3: moving on our society and we're not protecting ourselves. So 406 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: we need to start thinking about the world in much 407 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 3: more realistic tones, because if we don't, then we will 408 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 3: be unprepared for what very well could happen. 409 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: Not much of that's because of open borders under Biden. 410 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: We know a lot of Chinese nationals made their way 411 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: to the United States during those four years. 412 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: Yes, there are Chinese agents, operatives, and soldiers in our country, 413 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: and there's more. They were there before Biden, but there 414 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: are more of them because of the open border. If 415 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 3: you go back to the early the first after Biden 416 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 3: was elected the Chinese there was an unprecedented surge of 417 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 3: Chinese migrants in our country, but most of them were 418 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 3: family groups, in other words, people who were desperate to 419 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 3: live in a free society. Towards the end of the 420 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: Biden era, US Border patrol noticed that there was a 421 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 3: stark change in the composition of Chinese migrants that towards 422 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 3: the end, about two thirds and at some border crossings 423 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 3: eighty five percent of the Chinese migrants were single males 424 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 3: of military age, traveling without family members, some pretending not 425 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 3: to speak English. Border patrol knew that some of them 426 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 3: had links to the Chinese military, and many of these 427 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 3: guys were coming across in packs of four to fifteen, 428 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: and some of these packs of Chinese males, they were 429 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 3: actually decked out in an identical kit. So yeah, we've 430 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,239 Speaker 3: got to be really concerned that they're now more of 431 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 3: them here. And it's not just the Chinese, it's the Iranians. 432 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 3: Remember that September eleventh, twenty twenty three deal that Biden 433 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 3: had with Iran. Well, part of that deal, he gave 434 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 3: five Iranian operatives clemency, which was in exchange for releasing Americans. 435 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 3: But and so I can sort of accept that, But 436 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 3: what I can't accept is that he gave three of 437 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 3: those five Iranian operatives, he released them into the United 438 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: States at a time when Irani other Iranian operatives were 439 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: trying to kill President Trump, trying to kill Mike Pompeio, 440 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 3: former Secretary of State, and we're trying to kill other 441 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: Trump senior officials. So we know these guys are here, 442 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: and unfortunately ICE and federal authorities have just been overwhelmed. 443 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: So we got to get these guys out of our 444 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 3: country because they are here to kill us. 445 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think if they're you know, doing 446 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: these biolabs with all these dangerous pathogens, that's the objective, 447 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: Gordon Chang. Always interesting to hear your perspective. Oay, scary 448 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: but important warnings for us to heed. And I hope 449 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: that the Trump administration and our government, I hope they're 450 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: paying attention. 451 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 2: So Gordon Chang, thank you so much for your time. 452 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 3: Sir, well, thank you, Lisa, and stay safe. 453 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for joining the show. 454 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, 455 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: but you can listen throughout the week. I also want 456 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: to thank my producer, John Casside for putting the show together. 457 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 2: Until next time.