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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in occult

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Speaker 1: or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust.

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Speaker 4: For trust me.

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Speaker 5: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 6: I've never lived.

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Speaker 3: To you, I've never live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two artists who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I am lo LeBlanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. Today our

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Speaker 2: guest is Minjo, Distinguished Professor of Sociology and Asian American

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Speaker 2: Studies at UCLA, who also grew up during the Cultural

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Speaker 2: Revolution in China. Now, this was a decade of social

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Speaker 2: chaos in the nineteen sixties and seventies in which intellectuals

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Speaker 2: are to anyone perceived as capitalist or representing the old

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Speaker 2: ways was persecuted or murdered in the hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 2: or more. She'll tell us about the backstory leading to

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Speaker 2: this moment and not so distant history, Who Mao Zadong

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Speaker 2: was and what the climate was like when he began

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Speaker 2: to use propaganda to create a cult of personality around

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Speaker 2: himself and the movement to purge through psychological or violent means.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who disagreed with Mao's policies, especially academics and scientists.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us about just how far the fanaticism and

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Speaker 1: propaganda around Chairman Mao went. Who the Red Guards were

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Speaker 1: and how they initially seemed just like a cool subculture

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Speaker 1: of young people when she was a kid, until they

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Speaker 1: began to grow more destructive, and why her father was

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Speaker 1: an immediate target.

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Speaker 2: And next week we will discuss the labor camps that

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Speaker 2: her parents were sent to and what it was like

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Speaker 2: trying to survive when they were away.

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Speaker 7: Act.

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Speaker 2: It's so crazy this time and history is just so insane.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe that more of us didn't know about

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Speaker 2: it prior to the three body problem and also probably

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Speaker 2: still Yeah, I think it's a particular interesting case study

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Speaker 2: because depending on where you are politically, you can kind

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Speaker 2: of read whatever you want into it. You could there

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Speaker 2: are like different takeaways that you can get from it.

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Speaker 2: I've seen it used from people on the right as

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Speaker 2: an example of why like all young people's movements are destructive.

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Speaker 2: That's obviously not true. But there are some like larger

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Speaker 2: principles that we can take away, which we can discuss

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Speaker 2: at the end of the episode. But yeah, in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: it's very important to understand these movements in history that

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Speaker 2: did lead to so much violence.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, very very scary and interesting.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, and to get the first person perspective is always

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Speaker 2: so much better.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, she's cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So before we get into this crazy shit, Megan,

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Speaker 2: what's your culties saying this week?

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Speaker 1: Well, a Rolling Stone article came out this week that

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Speaker 1: I was curious about. It's about the medicalization of mushrooms

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Speaker 1: for mental health and what have you. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of people are accidents meeting what they call God. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're just like trying to uh to you know, like

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Speaker 1: get a little antidepressant. One woman was talking about how

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Speaker 1: she was Mormon. She even asked her bishop if she

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Speaker 1: could take some. She'd never even drink coffee, and immediately

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Speaker 1: she was kind of transported to this different part of

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Speaker 1: her psyche where she was like, oh my gosh, God's

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Speaker 1: not not this like parentified identity in the sky. It's

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Speaker 1: life and blah blah blah blah. She left Mormonism.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: All I can see though, is like somebody's gonna start

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Speaker 1: a cold.

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Speaker 2: There's gonna be so many mushroom colds, like a for sure.

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Speaker 2: What an easy thing to exploit because it is so

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Speaker 2: inherently spiritual for so many people. Yeah, just the way

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Speaker 2: that whatever does your fucking brain, especially if it's in nature.

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Speaker 2: We talked about this just a couple of months ago,

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Speaker 2: how I went out and I was like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: don't believe in God, but if I did, this would

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Speaker 2: be I would believe that I saw God.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it's so.

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Speaker 2: Easy to exploit, so that'll be interesting and I'm probably horrifying.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of messing with the ability to get

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Speaker 1: it medicalized. It's like causing problems because people are like,

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Speaker 1: do you feel better, and they're like, yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: met God and they're like.

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Speaker 7: Well, we can't, Like how do we scientifically? You know,

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Speaker 7: it's just an interesting it's an interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to keep an eye on it, and

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Speaker 1: nobody start a mushroom call.

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Speaker 2: It's not right do mushrooms, yourself with your friends, just

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Speaker 2: for absolutely for a nice time. Interesting, interesting, thank you?

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Speaker 7: What about you? What's your cultiest thing? Well?

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Speaker 2: I got a Google alert today, oh for a YouTube

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Speaker 2: video that says low Lablanc trust Me. By the way,

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Speaker 2: you guys, I feel like I didn't. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I actually talked about the fact that my last

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Speaker 2: song release was called trust Me, and I made a

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Speaker 2: short film you diad called.

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Speaker 6: Trust Me, So please go watch it. It's on my YouTube.

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Speaker 2: It's a short film about literally about indoctrination and my

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Speaker 2: character breaking free from it. And then the music video

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Speaker 2: begins and I'm very proud of it. I shot it

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Speaker 2: in Norway, and you know the song thank You. But

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Speaker 2: this so this video title is in reference to my

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Speaker 2: music video short film, not in reference to this podcast.

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Speaker 2: So it says Lola Blanc trust Me parentheses, it says

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Speaker 2: shocking portrayal of the Luciferian narrative. Description says the song

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Speaker 2: trusts Me by Lola Blanc presents a blatant and blasphemous

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Speaker 2: portrayal of Yahweh as the fictitious gnostic demiurge I don't

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Speaker 2: know this party. In the short film associated with the

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Speaker 2: music video, the goddess has shown as becoming disillusioned with

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Speaker 2: yahweh and learning to in quotations trust herself to essentially

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Speaker 2: in quotations follow her heart as it were. In this installment,

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Speaker 2: I expose this high level esoteric occult video and expose

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Speaker 2: the concept of trust in oneself as being an alias

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Speaker 2: or metaphor for Luciferian illumination and divine ascension. So listening

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Speaker 2: to your own instincts is actually satanic, is what they're saying,

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Speaker 2: And they need to do mushrooms more than the real

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Speaker 2: This is a fourteen minute video, by the way, breaking

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Speaker 2: down why my short film about someone breaking out of

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Speaker 2: an abusive manipulation, Why that's actually satanic?

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, that's one of the coolest things I

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Speaker 1: think I've learned from this podcast is just how much

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Speaker 1: cults want to separate you from your inner gut feelings.

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Speaker 1: So of course they'd be bothered that you're saying not

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Speaker 1: to lose trust in your gut feelings.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, how dare?

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Speaker 2: How dare? I say, listen to yourself, but not always

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Speaker 2: because sometimes our perceptions off, but most of the.

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Speaker 7: Time better help get a therapist involved.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So that's fun.

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Speaker 2: I've seen some conspiracy theories stuff pop up around my

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Speaker 2: music at times, but in very small doses.

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Speaker 6: It'll be interesting to see.

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Speaker 7: If this takes. I mean, all press is good press.

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Speaker 7: Listen we should.

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Speaker 2: There's a comment that says great work as always deep

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Speaker 2: and descriptive.

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Speaker 7: That was me.

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Speaker 1: Actually I'm the commentor on that.

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Speaker 2: Damn it, Megan, thank you actually trying to keep time

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Speaker 2: to get your work in algorithm, the Divine Algorithm.

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Speaker 7: Oh boy.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, so check out my short film guys if you

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Speaker 2: want to see my luciferian work.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: In the meantime, should we talk to Minjo about the

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Speaker 2: cultural Revolution?

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, let's do it.

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Speaker 6: Welcome Professor Minjo to trust me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here in person with

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Speaker 2: us today in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much. I really enjoy your show.

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Speaker 6: Oh thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: So you are here today to talk to us about

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Speaker 2: a topic we have kind of briefly mentioned in some

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Speaker 2: of our intros saying we want to do a lot

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Speaker 2: larger episode on it. And now we finally get to

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Speaker 2: which is the cultural revolution? And your perspective is so

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Speaker 2: unique because not only are you a professor of sociology

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Speaker 2: and Asian American.

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Speaker 6: Studies who has won awards.

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Speaker 2: Might I add you're also here to talk to us

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Speaker 2: about your own childhood, actually growing up in China during

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Speaker 2: the Cultural Revolution and experiencing it firsthand. To start us

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Speaker 2: off for American listeners who, like me a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago, might not have ever heard of the Cultural Revolution,

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Speaker 2: can you give us just like a brief overview of

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Speaker 2: what it was and then we can start getting into

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Speaker 2: some of the details.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, the Cultural Revolution, the full name in Chinese is

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Speaker 8: the Proleteriat Cultural Revolution of China. So it was launched

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Speaker 8: by Mao in May nineteen sixty six, Mazadon, Yeah, by Malston,

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Speaker 8: by Chairman maos Don, And.

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Speaker 2: This was basically the explanation you see online kind of

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Speaker 2: like briefly summarize it is a decade of political and

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Speaker 2: social chaos caused by leader Mao Zadong's attempt to reassert

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Speaker 2: control over the Communist Party.

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Speaker 6: And basically it was this youth movement.

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Speaker 2: Radical youths were kind of pitted against intellectuals, scientists, teachers, artists, landlords,

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Speaker 2: and anyone deemed a class enemy or tied to the

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Speaker 2: West or the sort of former government. So everyone in

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Speaker 2: these categories, was persecuted and many many people were actually

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Speaker 2: murdered because of who they were in pretty horrific ways,

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Speaker 2: which we can talk about later. Most people, I think

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Speaker 2: most at least young American people, probably don't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of context for who Mount Zadong was and like

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Speaker 2: what was going on politically, where he came from, who

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Speaker 2: was he well.

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Speaker 8: Mazadong is the leader of the Chinese Communist Party. The

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Speaker 8: Chinese Communist Party took control over China and established the

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Speaker 8: People's Republic of China in nineteen forty nine, so since

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Speaker 8: forty nine, he also announced the establishment of the People's

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Speaker 8: Republic of China as opposed to the Republic of.

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Speaker 5: China that is Taiwan.

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Speaker 8: So the Communist Party led revolution or civil war so

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Speaker 8: to speak.

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Speaker 5: After World War Two.

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Speaker 8: They pushed the Nationalist Party that is the Jiangai Sack

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Speaker 8: lead party the Republic of China to Taiwan. So right

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Speaker 8: now Taiwan is called the Republic of China that was

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Speaker 8: established in nineteen eleven when the nationalist movement overthrowed the

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Speaker 8: last emperor and then China was represented or was ruled

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Speaker 8: by the Nationalist Party, the Jiangai Sek led party and

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Speaker 8: then over the years, the Nationalist Party, the Komin Dun

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Speaker 8: what they called Vomin Dann Party and the Communist Party

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Speaker 8: were at odds with one another and they fighting in control.

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Speaker 8: So they at the time when Japanese invaded China in

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Speaker 8: the nineteen thirties, they united to fight the Japanese. And

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Speaker 8: then after nineteen forty five when China won because China

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Speaker 8: was aligned, then the two parties were at odd with

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Speaker 8: one another trying to control China again. And then the

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Speaker 8: Chinese Communist Party the CCP one and the Qualmin DWN

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Speaker 8: the KMT lost and then they retreat to Taiwan, and

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Speaker 8: then the CCP won, the Chinese Communist Party one, and

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Speaker 8: then they found the People's Republic of China. So in

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Speaker 8: a way, China now has a history from nineteen forty

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Speaker 8: nine October first, that is the National Day now for

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Speaker 8: China till now right, and Chaman Male has been the leader.

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Speaker 8: He has been the leader before, you know, in the

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Speaker 8: fighting and all that. Of course, leadership was at risk,

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Speaker 8: you know, one time or another, but he maintained his

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Speaker 8: control and leadership. I was too young then, but in

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Speaker 8: the nineteen fifties and sixties, within the party there were

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Speaker 8: also fractions. So Chaman Mau was trying to maintain control,

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Speaker 8: and also he worried that if he doesn't do anything,

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Speaker 8: he might lose control. So he launched the Chinese Cultural Revolution,

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Speaker 8: the Poetaria Cultural Revolution, and he kind of does it

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Speaker 8: in order to purch his adversaries in the party, and

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Speaker 8: he succeeded in doing that, but things get out of

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Speaker 8: control and it become very chaotic. That probably was not

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Speaker 8: what he was originally intended.

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Speaker 5: So the whole.

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Speaker 8: Thing lasted for ten years until nineteen seventy six when

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Speaker 8: the Gang of Four was One of the person was

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Speaker 8: Chienman Mau's wife, Madam Jiang Chin. The Gang of Four

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Speaker 8: like later on, it controls China, Wow Mauzadong and then

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Speaker 8: the Gang of Four, So China is basically controlled by

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Speaker 8: these four people in a political bureau.

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Speaker 2: So I was reading about how he sort of understood

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Speaker 2: this need for there to be a cult of personality

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Speaker 2: around him. So he's like, Okay, I need to like

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Speaker 2: get control back over my party.

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Speaker 6: I need to be the one in control of the country.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna launch a campaign to sort of whip people

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Speaker 2: up and make them make myself this like icon and

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Speaker 2: the symbol to them.

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Speaker 6: How was he marketing himself?

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Speaker 9: What was some of the propaganda, Well, he used propaganda, right,

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Speaker 9: He used the party's propaganda machine very effectively. I think,

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Speaker 9: as it is true for all.

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Speaker 8: Authoritarian regime, they always use the propaganda regime to boost

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Speaker 8: up the image, to boost up the charismatic character of

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Speaker 8: the leader, like Kidler.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 8: So in the nineteen fifties, ever since the funding of

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Speaker 8: the People Republic of China, you see the campaign, the

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Speaker 8: political campaign NonStop. So when you mentioned that l one

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Speaker 8: hundred flowers bloom, that is part of the campaign too.

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Speaker 8: So in the late nineteen fifties, I was too young,

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Speaker 8: so always like reread and reinterpret history. People may interpret differently,

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Speaker 8: but from my own experience and also my father, my

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Speaker 8: father is called the best athlete of the political meats,

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Speaker 8: like they call it in don't in Chinese even don't

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Speaker 8: it's like sports meat, right, So my father is the

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Speaker 8: best athlete. That means he's always the target of this

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Speaker 8: don't this political campaign.

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Speaker 5: And Mao has launched various.

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Speaker 8: National campaign and then some of those national campaign to

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Speaker 8: purch the adversaries. Some of those national campaign get filtered

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Speaker 8: down to the local level. So my father actually is

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Speaker 8: a local cadred in the city. At that time it

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Speaker 8: was a township. Now it's a city of Johnsan. So

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Speaker 8: John San is the hometown of Signet Sen. Sienna Sen

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Speaker 8: is the father of Chinese Revolution. So john Shan is

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Speaker 8: a very well known city. So the father of Chinese Revolution,

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Speaker 8: Sienne Sen. He's the one who led the Chinese Revolution

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Speaker 8: to overthrow the last dynasty, right, the Qing dynasty. So

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Speaker 8: I heard from my father that even in the early

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Speaker 8: nineteen fifties they were campaign because he's local in the

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Speaker 8: south in Canton, and then the People's Liberation Army is

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Speaker 8: coming from the north. Right, so when the northerners come

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Speaker 8: and take control the southern resist, right, the local people,

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Speaker 8: the local countreades or the local leaders would resist. And

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Speaker 8: my father was one of those leaders who resist the

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Speaker 8: northern control and he was put in jail. So that

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Speaker 8: was one campaign to puch the regionalism. The regionalism, what's campaign,

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Speaker 8: But putting.

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Speaker 1: Them under their control looked like what was your dad

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Speaker 1: fighting against?

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Speaker 8: Well, at that time he was working with the mayor.

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Speaker 8: He was like the chief of staff in the mayor's office.

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Speaker 8: And he is also a revolutionary right he's a revolutionary

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Speaker 8: fighting the Japanese, but he wasn't, you know, fighting the

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Speaker 8: Kuomin Dan.

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Speaker 5: They also feel.

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Speaker 8: That they have a part, you know, in the redistribution

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Speaker 8: of power, right, and then all of a sudden, the

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Speaker 8: northern people coming down take control and they speak a

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Speaker 8: different language.

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Speaker 5: So there is a lot of annoyance and.

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Speaker 8: They resist, but I don't think they openly resist it,

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Speaker 8: but there is uneasiness.

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Speaker 5: And then the party feel.

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Speaker 8: There is a threat, so they purge it before you

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Speaker 8: act on it, got you right.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, So there is a sort of anyone who

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Speaker 2: even like vaguely seemed like they could be a threat,

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Speaker 2: those people needed to be purged, and that was the

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Speaker 2: word that was used.

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Speaker 8: Yes, yes, perfect, Yeah, they purched you, and they you know,

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Speaker 8: they tried to demote you, you know, put you into

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Speaker 8: a labor camp. It's not just like during the Cultural

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Speaker 8: Revolution a lot of people were put into the labor camp,

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Speaker 8: but even in the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 5: They did that.

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Speaker 8: They deposed you from your original post. It's not like

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Speaker 8: a prison, but it's like a prison.

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Speaker 5: As a matter of fact.

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Speaker 8: For my father, I remember because he and the mayor

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Speaker 8: in paer working in pair, so they were both put

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Speaker 8: into almost like a jail, but it's not a jail

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Speaker 8: because there is no jail. So he said, it was

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Speaker 8: in a temple. And then every day they are calling

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Speaker 8: to make confessions that they are doing something wrong.

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Speaker 5: Right, so they are calling. And then it sticked with me.

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Speaker 8: And then a young woman she is like a red guard,

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Speaker 8: so she has guns at that time, and then she

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Speaker 8: put her gun on the table and threatened, my father

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Speaker 8: is that if you don't say it, can you believe

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Speaker 8: I can shoot you right here?

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Speaker 5: My father said, yes, I believe you. That thing sticks

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Speaker 5: with me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's terrifying.

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Speaker 8: That's terrifying. So the Red Guard would be like that,

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Speaker 8: he said. She is probably like in her teens, like

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Speaker 8: seventeen or eighteen years old.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I first learned about this, which is embarrassing American. We

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Speaker 2: Americans stuck at understanding other countries histories.

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Speaker 6: Or maybe it's just me, but I think most of

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Speaker 6: my friends the same thing.

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Speaker 9: It was.

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Speaker 2: It was what's the book The Three Body Problem. There's

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Speaker 2: a scene at the beginning of that book, and I

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Speaker 2: assume in the show I haven't seen the show, there's

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Speaker 2: this seen where I'm probably going to get some of

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Speaker 2: the details wrong because it's been a while since I

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Speaker 2: read it. But children, like teenage children turn against their

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Speaker 2: own parent in sort of a public square and the

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Speaker 2: parent ends up getting killed.

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Speaker 8: I've seen a lot of that, and let me finish

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Speaker 8: that story. So that they they were called to make confessions.

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Speaker 8: You know, it's kind of a routine thing. They have

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Speaker 8: to do something right when you are detaining these people.

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Speaker 8: So that evening the mayor committee suicide by you know,

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Speaker 8: strangling himself, I don't know. And then my father, you know,

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Speaker 8: they don't have a bed, right they just sleep on

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Speaker 8: the floor, and my father woke up.

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Speaker 5: To see his dead body, cold body.

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Speaker 8: At that time, my father was not married yet because

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Speaker 8: it's in the early nineteen fifties, but he had five

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Speaker 8: children and the youngest one is still not born. So

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Speaker 8: my father had been very close to family, you know,

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Speaker 8: he feel he had an oubrogation to raise them to

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Speaker 8: do well. But ironically, the oldest child was very active

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Speaker 8: in the RecA movement in nineteen sixty six when he

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Speaker 8: was a teenager.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I want to rewind a little bit because it

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Speaker 2: gets so extreme. I'm so interested in how it got

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Speaker 2: to that point. I'm going to just say a couple

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Speaker 2: things I wrote down about.

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Speaker 6: Some of the pro Mao propaganda.

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Speaker 2: The number of his portraits printed exceeded the population at

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Speaker 2: the time. Every citizen was presented with a book with

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Speaker 2: a selection of quotes of his that was required to

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Speaker 2: be carried everywhere and displayed at all public events, and

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Speaker 2: citizens were expected to read it daily.

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Speaker 6: The mango story is fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: This is just from Wikipedia, but in nineteen sixty eight

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Speaker 2: an article was published saying, in the afternoon of the

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Speaker 2: fifth when the great happy news of Chairman Mao giving

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Speaker 2: mangoes to the capital worker and peasant Mauzadong thought propaganda

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Speaker 2: team reached the sing Wa I don't know how to

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Speaker 2: say that a university campus. People immediately gathered around the

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Speaker 2: gift given by the great Leader Chairman mouth this mango.

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Speaker 2: They cried out enthusiastically and sang with wild abandonment. Tears

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Speaker 2: swelled up in their eyes, and they again and again

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Speaker 2: sincerely wished that our most beloved great Leader lived ten

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Speaker 2: thousand years without bounds. They all made phone calls to

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Speaker 2: their own work units to spread this happy news, and

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Speaker 2: they also organized all kinds of celebratory activities all night

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Speaker 2: long and arrived at the National Leadership Compound despite the rain,

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Speaker 2: to report the good news and to express their loyalty

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Speaker 2: to the Great Leader, Chairman Mao. Replicas of this mango

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Speaker 2: were created. They were sent on a tour. Mangoes appeared

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Speaker 2: in posters everywhere. There was a dentist who saw the

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Speaker 2: mango replica said it was nothing special, and then he

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Speaker 2: was put on trial for malicious slander, found guilty, created

403
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Speaker 2: publicly through the town, and then shot in the head.

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Speaker 2: That is some pretty extreme fervor for this leader.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that took a jump to Yeah, like magical mangoes?

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Speaker 2: Did people love him already because I was reading about

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Speaker 2: how he was very conscious of the fact that he

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Speaker 2: needed to create this culture personality.

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Speaker 6: How does one even do that? How do we should

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Speaker 6: we do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: How do we do that?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 8: It's very irrational and there is very hard to explain

416
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Speaker 8: this kind of craziness. It's crazy. I remember that because

417
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Speaker 8: it's in nineteen sixty eight. I was twelve years old,

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Speaker 8: and the mango gets down to the south right, the

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Speaker 8: mango story. I live in the Sudden border of China,

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Speaker 8: you know, Sutthern boasts so it's very fast. South there

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Speaker 8: is a saying that the suddenness are rebellious because you know,

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Speaker 8: the mountains high, the emperor is far away, right, So

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Speaker 8: it was like that even then, it's very fast getting

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Speaker 8: down through the party's propaganda machine about the mango.

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Speaker 5: So everybody was very.

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Speaker 8: Happy because they are taught they can't think, you know,

427
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Speaker 8: they are taught to think the same way, one way.

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Speaker 5: So it's very hard for people who.

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Speaker 8: Grow up in a democracy to imagine how could that happen,

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Speaker 8: But it happened even today unfortunately, kind of going back

431
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Speaker 8: to that kind of thing that in China now there

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Speaker 8: is one voice, right, one view of one voice. So

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Speaker 8: it was exactly the same as in the nineteen sixties fifties,

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Speaker 8: you know when there is letting the one hundred flowers boom.

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Speaker 5: You know, after that.

436
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Speaker 8: You know it's one voice, fun view, and people dare

437
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Speaker 8: not to say things differently.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so great, let's talk about that.

439
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: So I'm really interested in this because it's from my understanding,

440
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Speaker 2: maw was already in power during this time, right for

441
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Speaker 2: the hundred Flowers movement.

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Speaker 6: This was his sort of initiative.

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Speaker 2: So it was to quote, let one hundred flowers bloom

444
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Speaker 2: in social science and arts and let one hundred viewpoints

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Speaker 2: be expressed in the field of science. So there'd been

446
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 2: this ideological control. But then he's like, actually, there might

447
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 2: be some good ideas out there. I'm going to relax

448
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: this control and let people express themselves. But then people

449
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 2: started expressing themselves against him, right, a little too much?

450
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, So then it's.

451
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 2: Like, oh, wait, no, no, no, I take it back. No no, no, no,

452
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: we need control again.

453
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: One flower blown.

454
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 2: So that was sort of on the heels of that

455
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 2: was so interesting, this sort of experiment with like pluralism,

456
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: many ideas, which seems like it could have been a

457
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: really healthy thing, because every healthy organization, in my view,

458
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: should be subjected to scrutiny and multiple ideas. So but

459
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: then basically this is the beginning of when the crackdown

460
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: starts to happen, and.

461
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 6: This is sort of where it starts to get really dark, right, yeah, okay.

462
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: So that makes sense that after that you see the

463
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: government cracking down. Now like no, actually, alternative points of

464
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: view are not allowed in any way whatsoever.

465
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 6: So now, of course people are.

466
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,239
Speaker 2: Going to start being afraid and silencing themselves if they

467
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,479
Speaker 2: do feel some sort of dissent.

468
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 8: Right, yeah, let me go back to the let one

469
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 8: hundred flowers floom first.

470
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 5: Okay, Yeah, that one is.

471
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 8: It's kind of called the Chinese cultural renaissance. So it's

472
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 8: a welcome sign for the intellectual community. As a matter

473
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 8: of fact, a lot of intellectuals speak up, university professors

474
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 8: and even college students, right, they speak up.

475
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 5: Now.

476
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 8: Prior to that, in the late nineteen thirties and early

477
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 8: nineteen forties, there was you know, in the base in

478
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 8: the Communist Party based in Yen, and there was a

479
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 8: purge too that you know, it's similar. First it let out,

480
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 8: you know, it let loose for a different viewpoint to express,

481
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 8: and all of a sudden there is a clamp down.

482
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 8: So it's kind of history repeat. But you know, people

483
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 8: don't take history.

484
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 5: Four.

485
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 1: Why do they keep thinking people should be allowed to

486
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: express themselves.

487
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, so they feel that, oh, maybe there is

488
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 8: hope because people are hoping.

489
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 5: For the better.

490
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 8: Right, So there is this optimism and this hope. So

491
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 8: a lot of people actually speak up and criticize the

492
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 8: party or the government for the better with good intention.

493
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 8: But then there was this crackdown and there is the

494
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 8: anti writist movement, so the anti writerist campaign in the

495
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 8: late nineteen fifties to purche the intellectual and a lot

496
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,719
Speaker 8: of them are college professors and artists, you know, in

497
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 8: the in the social science and humanities, as well as

498
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 8: college students, and they are in their like nineteen twenties.

499
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 8: Once they are perched, they perch into the countryside and

500
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 8: silence them and they you know, they are in the countryside.

501
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 8: So that is a whole generation of the Chinese smart talent.

502
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 8: They got perched right to silence. And there is a

503
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 8: theory which I agreed, that Mile was scared, so he

504
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 8: launched that revolution. They launched that campaign in order to

505
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 8: identify their adversaries in order to you know, say, oh,

506
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 8: people's submerge and then you you know, when.

507
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 5: People speak up, then they purche.

508
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 6: There you can figure out who it is ya.

509
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: How do you get all these nineteen and twenty year

510
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: olds out.

511
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 5: Now they have at the universities.

512
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 8: Once the party has a call to express your free opinion,

513
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 8: the young people would respond to the call. And also

514
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 8: they feel a sense of conviction and that would connect

515
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 8: to the reight guard too. They feel that that is

516
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 8: the rising right thing to do, and then they do

517
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 8: it without knowing the consequences.

518
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: Did you mean physically, how are they Yeah, physically how

519
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: would they be How did they get all those people.

520
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 7: Purchase the countryside?

521
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 5: Is they're like they just send them.

522
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, they just send them there, gather them up, they

523
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 8: just send them there. Well, before they send them there,

524
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 8: there is the criticism sessions, right, so they have to

525
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 8: go into you know, have daily meetings, go into the

526
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 8: session to face public criticism.

527
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 5: Everybody would criticize.

528
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 6: You just so cold, like everybody would.

529
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 8: Say something, right, Yeah.

530
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: So ostensibly, you know, the way it's often positioned is

531
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: that like, oh, Mauzadoon was a leftist leader and this

532
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: was an anti rightist movement. But if the people that

533
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: they're targeting are intellectuals and artists.

534
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 6: That seems like a different thing.

535
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: What was the logic behind, like the artists and intellectuals

536
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: and professors, Well.

537
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 8: Because they are very expressive, right, they can express their

538
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 8: opinion through art, right through writings, through speeches. So historically

539
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 8: the intellectual group, you know, the lead authoritarian leaders, including

540
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 8: the emperors, they fear that the intellectual class. They fear

541
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 8: that because they can write, you know, they have the

542
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 8: power to influence, right, through their popular art, their writings

543
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 8: and stuff. So they are considered the first to.

544
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: Go always and what were they expressing? What were most

545
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: of them saying this is wrong or this is well?

546
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 8: There are many things. Part of it is because of

547
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 8: the parties. It can policy like they have the comos,

548
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 8: they have the cooperative They feel that that is not

549
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 8: a good way to go, and they kind of, you know,

550
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 8: advocate the idea of kind of opening up the free

551
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 8: market stuff, so that's a no no thing. And then

552
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 8: also they feel that, you know, the party's control is

553
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 8: too overwhelming and they should kind of democratize the structure.

554
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 5: Right, So that's very threatening to maw.

555
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: Right because it is authoritarianism, right, it is this one

556
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: way only do as I say.

557
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 6: It's not just about economic policy.

558
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: It's about this like very high level of control right country.

559
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, So.

560
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about who the Red Guards are

561
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: gods were and how they were organized that they organized them?

562
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 6: So who is sort of orchestrating all of this?

563
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 5: I don't know.

564
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 8: But the records are the youth right who participate in

565
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 8: this movement, and they are mostly high school students, so

566
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 8: all of a sudden it seems like they are self

567
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 8: organizing themselves because there is a core like there is

568
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 8: kind of an example in Beijing, right in Beijing, and

569
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 8: they have the big character poster that is posting and

570
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 8: then mal kind of signed the poster. I don't know

571
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 8: exactly where in chin Huai University or Beijing University, one

572
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 8: of the two. You know, these two are the best

573
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 8: university is the top two university in China evenity today.

574
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 5: So chairman now.

575
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 8: Endorse the big character poster. That is to organize to

576
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 8: purchase the bourgeois influence, you know all that, right, and

577
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 8: then it gets filtered down locally. So every high school,

578
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 8: the young people would kind of organize themselves and start acting.

579
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 8: And in the beginning, now I remember that because as

580
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 8: a child we were too young to participate, right, but

581
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 8: we do kind of admire the big brothers and sisters

582
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 8: in the high school section of your school who could

583
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 8: kind of do whatever. So in the beginning, they are

584
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 8: not disruptive. In the beginning, they organize themselves. They wear

585
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 8: the red band of Red Guard, so that's a symbolism

586
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 8: of something, right, you are somebody. So everybody was looking

587
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 8: at that red.

588
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 7: Like it was kind of cool.

589
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's cool.

590
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 8: It's cool and also there is some sort of power,

591
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 8: like you are in control, you can.

592
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: Do something right. So in the beginning they used different forms.

593
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 8: One is they put up the big character posters everywhere

594
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 8: to criticize things that they don't like, right. And on

595
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 8: the other hand, they would go onto the street organized

596
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 8: and then sing and dance.

597
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 5: Right.

598
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 8: So that's also kind of very inspiring, very.

599
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: Cool for the young people. So we are little kids,

600
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 5: so we kind of it's like going to see a

601
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 5: parade or something.

602
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 8: So it's every street corner you see these like it's

603
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 8: during Christmas time you see people singing Christmas choir and

604
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 8: there is it gathers crowd. So that's in the beginning

605
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 8: they are doing that. And then later on I also

606
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 8: you know, be part of those artists like dancing and

607
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 8: singing group and sing in the street too.

608
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 5: But that was past the fever. That was past the.

609
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 8: Peak, but things still going on at the tail end

610
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 8: of the cultural evolution. But the regard was doing that

611
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 8: in the beginning, so it's kind of store up there.

612
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's so interesting.

613
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 2: So at first it's just like we believe in Mao,

614
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: we follow Mao and we're going to form this community

615
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: and have some authority around this, and like.

616
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 8: We can control about our faith and stuff. And then

617
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 8: they also, you know, go out onto the street to sing,

618
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 8: and then very quickly, I don't remember when this little

619
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 8: red book is circulating the exact day, but then you know,

620
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 8: some of those performances, the street performances, the regards are

621
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 8: already holding their little red book or that was after

622
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 8: and then they are starting what they called the great

623
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 8: networking of the records.

624
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so the.

625
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 8: Regards would go to different places to network with other records,

626
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 8: right to different cities. So some small towns they organize

627
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 8: themselves to go. Under normal circumstances, they never travel across town, right,

628
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 8: because at that time.

629
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 5: You know, transportation is not that wow.

630
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 8: There is no express train or nothing, right, The roads

631
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 8: were bad, and so they hop onto the bus without paying,

632
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 8: and hop onto the train without paying. They just go right.

633
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 8: So all of a sudden it becomes the trend. So

634
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 8: all the trains I think within one or two years

635
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 8: to go, and then some of them would go to Beijing.

636
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 8: Like my cousin's sister who lived with us. You know,

637
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 8: my first cousin, she lived with us, and she was older, right,

638
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 8: she was like at that time, she was six years older,

639
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 8: so she was actually taking the tour, the Great Networking Tour,

640
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 8: and she went to Beijing and to like Ma was

641
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 8: in the tienanment to you know.

642
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 5: To at the Cloud.

643
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 8: So that's where the kind of the charisma was stimulating

644
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 8: and the craziness was stimulating.

645
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 5: And my cousin sister was one of them. I still

646
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 5: remember I said, how come she can go and not me?

647
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 8: But I was too Yeah, and she is not even

648
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 8: the best student in her class.

649
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 5: And she could go.

650
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 7: So you just want you wanted to go so badly.

651
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 8: Everybody was aspired, was kind of inspired, wanted to go,

652
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 8: but things take the turn later.

653
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's so much about that that sounds so cold,

654
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 2: like from like you know, making it into this really appealing,

655
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: exciting community to be a part of. And you know,

656
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: you go see the leader and it's probably when.

657
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 8: You go to different places to network, yeah, to a

658
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 8: big friends to net community.

659
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, to grow your community.

660
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 2: Then of course everyone has to be the same. And

661
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 2: do you hear have you read many stories or familiar

662
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: with many stories about kids maybe in high school at

663
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: that time, who felt like they had to join the

664
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 2: Red Guard because that was the only way for them

665
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 2: to kind of survive and their community.

666
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 5: Well, not that they feel they have to join. They

667
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 5: wanted to join.

668
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 6: They wanted to.

669
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's the right thing to do. It was kind

670
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 8: of that's something that they could do it themselves. Like

671
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 8: because of Chinese culture, you are always obey to the elders,

672
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 8: to the authority, and all of a sudden, you can

673
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 8: decide your faith right, do your own thing without hearing

674
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 8: your teachers, hearing anybody. So they I feel that they

675
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,479
Speaker 8: wanted to do it. When I was a little kid,

676
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 8: I wish I could be older and I could do

677
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 8: it too. And then later on they start to be

678
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 8: disruptive because at that time, you know, all the classes

679
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 8: were close, right, no classes, and then the red guards

680
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 8: are doing their own thing. It lasts for almost a

681
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 8: year like that. So we always go to the high

682
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 8: school to see you know, in Chinese it's called out

683
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 8: to join the crowd, you know, just to feel the atmosphere, right,

684
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 8: So I still remember one time because there was no classes,

685
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 8: and then the chairs and the desk in the classroom,

686
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 8: and all of a sudden, the students would push the

687
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 8: chairs and the death aside.

688
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 5: So we have the.

689
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 8: Two person chair, so when you sit in a classroom,

690
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 8: there are a desk the two person deaths and then

691
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 8: it's not like one person deaths like the US. There

692
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 8: are two person deaths. So the red guys would push

693
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 8: the desk aside to one of the classroom to make

694
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 8: room for meetings, right, for meetings and expressions have you know,

695
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,919
Speaker 8: people sit around there or stand around and then too

696
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 8: and singing and dance too. But then all of a sudden,

697
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,240
Speaker 8: I see that the records start to kind of break

698
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 8: the chairs and the desk, and that's when I feel,

699
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 8: even as a kid, I feel very uneasy when I

700
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 8: see that. And that was before the regards pull the

701
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 8: teachers onto the street or onto a public pace for humiliation.

702
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 8: And that's when I, even as a kid, I stayed behind.

703
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 8: You know, I disapprove it because you are always taught

704
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 8: that your teachers are like your parents, and all of

705
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 8: a sudden you are criticizing your teachers, and I could

706
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 8: not accept that, so I start to have doubts.

707
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 5: Even as a kid, you're.

708
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: Taught to really respect your surroundings too, right, so to

709
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: have like chairs being broken.

710
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 8: And become disrupted, yeah, that would be very and then

711
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 8: the regards would beat up the teachers when they picked

712
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 8: the the teachers for public humiliation or criticism, and the

713
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 8: teachers were.

714
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 5: All very humiliated.

715
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 8: So they wear this tall paper head and the paper

716
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 8: head would have the big characters written on it with

717
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 8: a red cross.

718
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 5: So only the people who are being.

719
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 8: Executed, they're doing that, right, So even the teachers, they

720
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 8: are wearing the paper like the red guards put on

721
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 8: this paper head there. And then the big posters when

722
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 8: they hang in the big posters, they name people, so

723
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 8: name the teachers, named the school masters, named the leaders,

724
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 8: and then in the big in their names like for me,

725
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 8: it's not mean Joe, but Joe min.

726
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 5: And then there is.

727
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 8: A red a big red cross that means you are

728
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 8: the enemy, right, so in the big poster. So that's

729
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 8: in the school everywhere. And then it gets to the

730
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 8: fact is too to other places to It started from

731
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 8: the school, the middle school, the college campus, and then

732
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 8: it gets to you know, all units like the cultural revolution.

733
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 8: In the first two years, it paralyzed the economy and

734
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 8: paralyzed everything, you know, the regular social order. And at

735
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 8: that time, my father is a culturalist, so he's his

736
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 8: target of perch. So we eat in the state dining room, right,

737
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 8: So in the state dining room, so all the government officials.

738
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 8: It's kind of one of the benefits of being a

739
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 8: government official. So you have you can eat in the

740
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 8: subsidized dining room. That is kind of status thing. So

741
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 8: the kids would go to the dining room to eat,

742
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 8: and then in the state dining room. It's a huge

743
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 8: dining room, right, So you see all these posters hanging

744
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 8: on the floor from top to down, and you see

745
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 8: your dad's name, you know, being there.

746
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, very scary.

747
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 8: So all of a sudden, there are the children of enemy,

748
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 8: that's us, and there are also the children of the

749
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 8: right revolutionaries who also work in the government.

750
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 7: Right.

751
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 8: So the children would you know, split into two camps too.

752
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 8: Sometimes my brother would fight with them. Even though my

753
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 8: brother was little, he would come home like all bloody

754
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 8: face because he was beat up.

755
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is wild.

756
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 8: This is but the cultural revolution, when your parents were

757
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 8: sent to detention or the labor camp. We feel kind

758
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 8: of freedom, right because we have no parents and we

759
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 8: have to take care of yourself. But somehow we were

760
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 8: children of the enemy, so we have to protect ourselves.

761
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 8: It's like kind of reform it's not gang, but it's

762
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 8: kind of gang, but we are always beaten up.

763
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, wait, I have more questions about that.

764
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: But before I asked about more specifics about you, was

765
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: there like a turning point that led the Red Guards

766
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: to sort of start becoming more extreme because the purging

767
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: was that was coming from the top, right, the idea

768
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: of purging.

769
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 8: The idea of purging comes from the top, but the

770
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 8: action itself is from the grassroots, right from the Red Guards.

771
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 8: So somehow because the party's propaganda machine, so if something

772
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 8: happened in Beijing or in the capital cities, it gets

773
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 8: influenced down to the very local and also the provincial area.

774
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 8: So I live not far from Guangzhou, another big city,

775
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 8: but I live in a smaller town. The big cities

776
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 8: is even more extreme, more extreme because they are the

777
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 8: one to receive the signal.

778
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 5: Right, all right first, but there is really no like

779
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 5: specific instruction that you should do that.

780
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 8: It's all from the masses, from the crazy craziness.

781
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: Is it kind of like would be really happy if

782
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: you purge those intellectuals and they're like perge perche, okay,

783
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: what is okay? We're going to figure out a way

784
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: to purge them, and then everyone kind of interprets it differently,

785
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 2: like because it does seem like purgement, so many different

786
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 2: things depending on where you were.

787
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 5: You now purging the teachers, it's all.

788
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 8: You know, it's very unified because you know, they you

789
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 8: spin their anger on their teachers. You know, the teachers

790
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 8: hold their grades. You know, like at that time, if

791
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 8: you don't behave you get picked on. Sometimes teachers are

792
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 8: very stern, you know, they you know, they use their ruler.

793
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 8: And then also they they call you up face the

794
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,959
Speaker 8: war to face those.

795
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: So there's already some aggression building up against this authority

796
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: that now it's like.

797
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 8: Okay, so it's very anti authority right at that time, yeah,

798
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 8: built up, but it gets too out of control and

799
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 8: gets to extreme and also gets to so extreme that

800
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 8: right now, looking back, you kind of interpret it as

801
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 8: a certain environments that call up the evilness of human nature.

802
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 5: So there is a lot to that.

803
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 8: So at the same time as the regard purchaed their

804
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 8: teachers and also you know, the factual workers purcha their

805
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 8: you know, the factory CEO leaders, the regards also go

806
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 8: to homes to rake the homes of the wealthy, and

807
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 8: also the homes who has like overseas Chinese connections, because

808
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 8: if you have overseas relatives, then you would be consider

809
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 8: like spies or bourgeois, and your home tend to have

810
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 8: some stuff that are from the West, or from Hong

811
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 8: Kong or from there. Yeah, so the regards actually go

812
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 8: into homes to pull up all these things that can

813
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 8: stay considered, including books, paintings, and furnitures and put it

814
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 8: on the yard and burn it or smash it.

815
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: What would some furniture be that they're like, this is

816
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: not okay furniture.

817
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 8: Well, that the old the classic old furniture that is

818
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 8: redwood furniture.

819
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 6: Anything that sort of evokes like the old ways.

820
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 8: Yes, because there is the mouse approofed slogan of abolished.

821
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 5: The four o's. So the four o's one is the

822
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 5: old idea.

823
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 8: I think the old culture, the old customs and old habits, right,

824
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 8: so those old things. But then anything that they people

825
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 8: think it's all could be talking of wow, push Yeah, it.

826
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: Kind of seems like it would be really just up

827
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: to whoever. It's like, whatever their inclination.

828
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 8: Is that I saw this, it's unbelievable. I saw this,

829
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 8: and I even see that sometimes the ric guys pick

830
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 8: the jewelies because juries is bourgos right, the juries and

831
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 8: smash it. I also see people you know, stole them

832
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 8: under the pocket, but for most of the time they

833
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 8: just throw it in the public. Wow yeah and destroy

834
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 8: them yeah wow.

835
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: All right, y'all, stay tuned for more about men's personal

836
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: experience growing up in the cultural revolution next week. So, uh,

837
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 2: I guess the key takeaways for me, like learning about

838
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: this piece of history, should I just launch into them?

839
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 7: Yeah? Well, will you launch into me? Please? Gonna lunch

840
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 7: it into you. But I can let's reframe.

841
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 6: That generally launch all right, just lunch right.

842
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: I mean, there were so many different factors at play

843
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: here that are there's so many like different intersecting lessons,

844
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: and I feel like, depending on your existing view of

845
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: the world, you can read so many different things into it.

846
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: But for me, my key takeaways here, and first of all,

847
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: we know any movement can become hijacked and can become extreme.

848
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 7: We know this.

849
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: The leadership's uh what the leadership is saying to do,

850
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 2: and the leadership's level of control is maybe the most

851
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 2: important thing in this case. Maozadong's government was encouraging purging

852
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 2: and actively encouraging fanaticism and very intentional propaganda to make

853
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 2: Maozadong be this like god of the people like that.

854
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: Whenever someone is elevated to that level, that is a

855
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: very very dangerous sign. And we will talk more about

856
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: that at the end of next week's episode. And also

857
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: one thing that like, I think it's lost in the

858
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,479
Speaker 2: conversation about like the danger of young people movements, which

859
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: debatable because it depends on the it depends on the

860
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: history of the country, it depends on the context. In America,

861
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: student movements have typically been on the right side of history,

862
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 2: you know, like these things can't be taken out of context.

863
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: But I think one thing that gets lost additionally in

864
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: that conversation is that the people that were being targeted

865
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: in this moment in history are intellectuals, artists, scientists, writers.

866
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 2: It becomes this arbitrary thing that anyone who represents any

867
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 2: differing idea, but in particular people who represent learning and

868
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: education and like having different ideas flourishing, these are the

869
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 2: people that were being targeted in this era.

870
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's an important distinction.

871
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's not just like oversimplifying it to like

872
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 2: the young people did whatever, Like it yes, but also

873
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: like what was actually happening was that Mao Zadong was

874
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 2: the ultimate leader and anyone who dissented in any way

875
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 2: was crushed, and the brief moment in which some differing

876
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: ideas were allowed just led to those people being targeted,

877
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: and then there was no more discent allowed. Obviously, this

878
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: was a unique political movement in that all of these

879
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: sort of different factions of Red Guards went to varying

880
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 2: levels of extreme and became increasingly violent depending on where

881
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: they were, you know. So it is also a fascinating

882
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: and horrific case study into what human beings are really

883
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 2: capable of when they believe that their outgroup is truly

884
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: truly bad and they are truly truly in the right.

885
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: In this case, the ideology happened to be communism, but

886
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 2: we've seen it with virtually every belief system that possibly exists.

887
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 2: So I think burning books is a very very bad sign.

888
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 2: Targeting people in schools and academia, scientists, anyone who's presenting

889
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 2: evidence or offering alternate world views that are evidence based.

890
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: I mean, these are very bad signs. But you know,

891
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 2: it is also very complicated, and we are American and

892
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: our history is very different. So I'm sure there's a

893
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 2: lot that I don't understand as well, but I think

894
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: it's really interesting to learn about and probably useful for

895
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,240
Speaker 2: everyone to know about.

896
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I can't wait to finish our conversation with her

897
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: next week.

898
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 6: Same.

899
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 7: All right, y'all, thank.

900
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: You for spending another week with us, and as always, remember.

901
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 7: To follow your gut, watch out for red flax.

902
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 4: And never ever trust me bye.

903
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

904
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: Steve Delamator, with special thanks to Stacy Para and our

905
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 2: theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

906
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

907
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

908
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

909
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

910
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

911
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

912
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 6: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.

913
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: Sci fi fans, this is your summer.

914
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Speaker 7: Fluto TV.

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