1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Quality Dytis, But Joseph's gotten more. You know, I run 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: my mouth a lot about science and about being a 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: scientist and how I rely on those methods that have 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 1: been developed over the years through study and practice, and 5 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: I'll stick with that. I'm not going to deviate from 6 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: that at all. But you know, there's this one theme 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: that runs through medical legal death investigation, and it's the 8 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: idea of documenting everything that we see. I tell my 9 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: students at Jacksonville State University without fail, every year I 10 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: teach a medical legal death investigation class for undergraduates twice 11 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: a year, and I tell them, I say, look, you are, 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: in fact going to be the documentarian of things that 13 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: are happening in the world in which you find yourself 14 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: in the world of death. But it's important to understand 15 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: that you're also a historian, because you're documenting the lives 16 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: of individuals that otherwise may not have even been a 17 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: blip on the radar screen of life today. Is one 18 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: such case, a case that reaches back all the way 19 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty seven in Great Britain. It's about a 20 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: little old lady that was found dead on her living 21 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: room floor, or as the Brits like to say, the 22 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: room of her parlor, and she had undergone brutality that 23 00:01:54,240 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: is almost unimaginable. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 24 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: body bags. Dave always have a uh an affinity for 25 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: British names and town names in particular, uh things like 26 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: Gloucester uh and uh the these these different types of 27 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: names of cities uh that you know, we have them 28 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: here in America. But you know, because of the way 29 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: we form our words and these sorts of things we 30 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: don't they don't necessarily come off the same when you 31 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: go back to the mother tongue, if you will. Yeah, 32 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: I know. And and so you see, like one town 33 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: that's gonna uh factor prevalently into into our sorty day 34 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: is a town called Ipswich. And there's actually an Ipswich 35 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: here in America. There might be a couple there, probably 36 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: are in the northeast. Yeah, And it's one of those 37 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: odd words or odd names. It actually sounds the same 38 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: here as it does there. 39 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: But that's how you can tell that leaders of a 40 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: particular county got together and said, we got a bunch 41 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: of people that want to form their own town. 42 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: We got to give it a name. And they start 43 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 3: throwing it. 44 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: By the time last call rolls around, it's like switch, Yeah, 45 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: do you. 46 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: Need a handkerchief? 47 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 3: Can you write it down? A good job, Dave. 48 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Ipswich rapist actually comes into play here, Dave. 49 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: And that's you know, all of these cases like this, 50 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: particularly years ago, there were the press used to like 51 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: to give them names, and I think a lot of 52 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: that slinging the ink if you will, it's very salacious. Yeah, 53 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. You know, we had in 54 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: Atlanta a series of homicides involving elderly ladies that was 55 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: called the City Killer. It's got that ring to it, 56 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: you know. And in this particular case or cases, we 57 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: have the Ipswich rapist, you know right now they're talking 58 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: about and the press loves these. We've got the Lisk, 59 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: the Long Island serial killer, and now we have NISC, 60 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: the New England serial killer. They just love the stuff. 61 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's an economy of word or 62 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: if it's if it's something that they're just trying to 63 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: dangle in from the public to get you coming back 64 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: from more. 65 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: Actually it's it is that it's a way to keep 66 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: people because if you can identify you know, a story 67 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: by an individual or by a location, then people recognize 68 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: what it is and you don't have to explain it 69 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: every time. So yeah, it's it's word economy and marketing. 70 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: You know much better. But in this one, you're talking 71 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: about a murder that took place of a seventy five 72 00:04:55,480 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: year old, tiny woman, and it happened when I was 73 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: a baby, and her town and community and what family 74 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: was left. I mean, they're all dead and gone except 75 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: for one detective and one family member. All these years later, 76 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 2: you're going to tell me that in nineteen sixty seven, 77 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: this crime took place, there was evidence left behind, including 78 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: a fingerprint, a palm print, and DNA, and did not 79 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: get it solved until right now. This is a story 80 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: that is ongoing as we speak. It has just been 81 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: to that point where we now know who the suspect 82 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: is and how long said suspect will be spending in prison. 83 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: But Joe, why why is it possible to it in 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven you had a fingerprint, a palm print, 85 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: and you had other evidence, and no suspect can get wrangled. 86 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: I don't get that. How does something like that happen? 87 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: Well, if somebody it's I always say this, David. You know, 88 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: I have people and look there, I don't think that 89 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: they're an educated I think they're ill educated about certain things. 90 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: They believe that if you have if you have some 91 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: type of scientific marker seen, whether it be a fingerprint, 92 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: a droplet of blood, seminal deposition, or even a tool mark, 93 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: to say, well you've got this bit of data, once 94 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: you go compare it to something and make an arrest. Okay, 95 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: what am I going to compare it to? Because if 96 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: no one is in the database, say, for instance, for fingerprints, 97 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, it's grand. I'm so happy 98 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: for you that you recovered a partial palm print or 99 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: you know, maybe a partial off of a thumb or 100 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: an index finger and that's you did a great job 101 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: at the saying look at this, look at all of 102 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: the detail. We can see, we can classify this, and 103 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: we can identify this manution and all this stuff. But 104 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: if you don't have anything to compare it to. And 105 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: the same principle applies with DNA. You know, you can 106 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: go and collect DNA, but if somebody, for instance, is 107 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: not in the code of database in America, then yeah, 108 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: you've got a great profile and it would be great 109 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: for future reference. But if you've got nobody to compare 110 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: it to, it's as Grandpappy used to say, it ain't 111 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: worth a gunpowder to blow it to hell. 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: It's just it's not. 113 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: It has no value at that particular point time. Now, 114 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's not going to have value in 115 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: the future. Understand me there, And that's the beauty of 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: this Historically. You know, I talked about documenting everything that 117 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: we see and everything that we do. If it had 118 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: not been for the work of those individuals that have 119 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: I don't know by this time, long term, long long, 120 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: long since turned to dust, if you will, if they 121 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: had not documented it back then, we would not have 122 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: an arrest affected as of I think it was July 123 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: the first when you had somebody that was hooked up 124 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: on chargers on this thing. 125 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: The woman's name is Louisa Dunn, seventy five year old, 126 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: small woman. That was the physical description by a neighbor. 127 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: She is so tiny and so fragile and seventy five 128 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: years old in nineteen sixty seven. That means that she 129 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: was born in the eighteen nineties. 130 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, when this is great, Britain was still an empire 131 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: right still ruled India. You know, women, these sorts of things. 132 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, she had lived through two World Wars, she 133 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: had lived through the first man going into space. 134 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and. 135 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: Eric, I think about this now. Her murder was solved 136 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: by technology that today we sometimes take for granted. I 137 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: am as just as bad as everybody else about watching 138 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: SVU on TV and just assuming that once you've got 139 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: DNA boom, you got everything, it's done. You know what, 140 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: do not go to commercial break. We got to get 141 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: another storylined up. We already got this one. But like 142 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: you said, to start with, if it's not in the system, 143 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: if there's not something there, you're talking about going down 144 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: a different pathway. And now we do have genetic genealogy 145 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: and other things which some of us are again some 146 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: of us are not. How you feel about government intrusion 147 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: on your private life and I have There are plenty 148 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: of issues to discuss on a different day in time, 149 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: But the bottom line is the detectives in nineteen sixty 150 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 2: seven did a good job at collecting because what they 151 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: were able to collect that day, Now, what did they 152 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: find Joe at the scene of Louisa Dunn's home when 153 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: she was found because I know that it was a 154 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: neighbor that actually they hadn't seen her that morning, and 155 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: she had a regular routine where they knew they would 156 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: see her every morning, and when they didn't, I'm talking 157 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: about neighbors, neighbors didn't see her. And so again, now 158 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: this is at a time when I don't really recall 159 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. I don't know how people normally live 160 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: their lives then, but I think they were Their heads 161 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 2: were not always tilted down looking at a five and a. 162 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: Half inch screen in their palm of hand. 163 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: Oh lord, no, no, I mean you know you had 164 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: what was that showed that Tim Allen had years ago 165 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: where Home Improvement the talk to the guy over the fence. 166 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: You had a lot of fence fence talking that would 167 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: go on. 168 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: Actually had a radio show called Across the Fence every 169 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: morning at nine am. 170 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: And it's such a it's something that's missing, you know. 171 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: I know that my grandmother, she had a hedgerow at 172 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: her house in the front yard. The back of the 173 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: house was a farm, but she and she had a 174 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: neighbor that lived next door, and they would literally talk 175 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: over the hedge to one another, and it could be 176 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: shouting back and forth while they're feeding their dogs that 177 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: they kept outside and that sort of thing. But you 178 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: kind of you get into a routine, you know, during 179 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: that period of and those people had a routine. I mean, 180 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: it's no different thing than a life that's lived now. 181 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: It's that when somebody turns up and if you know 182 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: somebody is kind of reclusive anyway, uh, maybe you're the 183 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: one person that actually ever sees them, and when they 184 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: don't make an appearance, you know, it actually raises the 185 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: eyebrow a bit. But yeah, and we have to keep 186 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: in mind. Let me and I've done a disservice here 187 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: because we have to understand that where where Louise's homicide 188 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 1: took place was actually on the western side actually the 189 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: south western side of Great Britain, and that that comes 190 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: into play here as far as I'm concerned. In it's 191 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: in the town of Bristol. 192 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: Because it was a poor town. Is that why it 193 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: comes into play? 194 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah it does because we're going to 195 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: get to Ipswich in a bit. But with Bristol, it's 196 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: it's on the southwestern side of the country and it 197 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: is a port town. Enter steely enough. 198 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 3: I was. 199 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: Last September, when I was in Great Britain, I got 200 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: to visit a university Dave where they're doing excavations of 201 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: a graveyard of industrial workers in Bristol that they discovered, 202 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: and some of these people are stacked on top of 203 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: one another, and they've got all of these the skeletons 204 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: that they are pulling out of these graves. There had 205 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: these unique findings relative to the industrial age of Great Britain. 206 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: This is when industry was just getting getting cooking. You've 207 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: got these like huge wear patterns on the bones of 208 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: traumatic arthritis and all these other things, fractures that never 209 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: got repaired. You find evidence of malnourishment, you know, in 210 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: the bones. And I got to see some of these skeletons, 211 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: but those all came out of Bristol. That was a 212 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:54,599 Speaker 1: fascinating visit. 213 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: By the way, kind of gives you a different idea 214 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: of what rest in peace really means. 215 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it really does. Particularly, you know, we do so 216 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: much resting nowadays. You know, we can't we can't really 217 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: comprehend the world that you know, that our forebears lived in. 218 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: When you've got actual evidence of tuberculoyd changes in bone, 219 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: for instance, what does that mean that really wellculosis at 220 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: some point, I mean you can actually see that manifested 221 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: on the bone and yeah, yeah, and it's it's all 222 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: of these little things. And we're going to do an 223 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: entire episode very shortly, my friends on forensic anthropology, and 224 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce a term in there that applies 225 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: to this. But yeah, So Bristol Seaport industrial town. She 226 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: was found, you know, in her home the neighbor. Actually, 227 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, Dave, I think they came in 228 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: through the window. 229 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, she Actually it was the neighbor. And you've taught 230 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: me to look at the finder. I was, and I 231 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 2: actually titled it the Finder, I think because I was wondering, 232 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 2: you know, you've got an unsolved crime, who finds you know, 233 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: who is the finder? And actually she didn't see her 234 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: that morning, and so after a while I was like, yeah, 235 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: go check on her, and so she walked over to 236 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: the house and peeked in the window and saw her Louisa. 237 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: She said that she thought maybe it was a heart attack, 238 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: because Luisa was seventy five years old, and so she 239 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: went to a side window that she was able to 240 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: get open, and she crawled through the window, and of 241 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: course when she got upon the body, she wasn't totally sure. 242 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: She just knew she was dead. 243 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: She grabbed her hand and she actually described it, you know, 244 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: as her hand was cold as ice. 245 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's one thing that never really leaves you. 246 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: There is cold, and we've all experienced it. But when 247 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: the icy fingers of death grip you, it's something that 248 00:14:46,440 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: you will never ever forget. Dave, you had mentioned the neighbor. 249 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: The neighbor's name is actually Vi v Allen. And when 250 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: Via came into miss Dunn's home and discovered that she 251 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: had this this coolness to the touch, if you will, 252 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: you automatically, it's a weird thing that we have. I 253 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a primal thing or whatever it 254 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: is with us humans. It almost makes you, uh, it 255 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: does in certain instances. It will make you retract. You 256 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: know that it'll actually make you. It's it's it's startling, 257 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, when you touch touch a body and it's 258 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: icy cold like that, because if you don't something that's expected. 259 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: I remember I asked you about this one time when 260 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: I was sitting up with the dead at a funeral home. Yeah, 261 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: And they asked me because they'd had too many people, 262 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: more people than expected to came by for an evening visitation, 263 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: and the hair needed to be fixed because the family 264 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: was coming in early for some private time with the body. 265 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: And I had never been alone with the deceased person 266 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: that I knew, and I knew his daughter, and so 267 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: as I'm in there, I didn't, Hey, man, comb the hair. 268 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: Not a big deal until you have to go comb 269 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: the hair by yourself in a funeral home at night, 270 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 2: when you're the only one there, and you're a child 271 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: before and you're a teenager. And yeah, So I ended 272 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: up looking and I saw his chest rising. Icing He's 273 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: wearing a pinstriped suit. I know it's an optical illusion 274 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: because we don't ever actually see anybody breathe. We see 275 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: it constantly, so our mind is conditioned to see that 276 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: chest rise and fall, even though we never pay attention 277 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: to it. Now, this was what was being explained to 278 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: me on the phone, which, by the way, this is 279 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: before cordless phones. Thankfully they had a phone that had 280 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 2: a really long cord. That I was outside. I was 281 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: outside with the door open, and I'm standing there in 282 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: the yard with the little springy thing as far as 283 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: it would go and Steve Brian Brian leef Funerr home 284 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: is Dave. I believe me, I did it myself. The 285 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: man is not a lot, Steve. He's breathing. You have 286 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 2: to be here now because I'm leaving, Dave. Don't leave, 287 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 2: you cannot leave. 288 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to tell you that place right into something. 289 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: I guess this morbid note has always been present in 290 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: my life because even as a kid, I remember asking 291 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: my mother at one point tom when people would dial 292 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: on television, like I used to love things like Gunsmoke. 293 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: I love to watch gun Smoke and shows like High 294 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: Chaparral and you know those old Wild Wild West, you 295 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: know all of those old Western series. And I remember 296 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: asking my mother if they were dead, and she said, no, 297 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: they're acting. And I have a distinct memory. As I 298 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: got older, I would always look at the chest of 299 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: the actor slaying on the ground, and I was fascinated 300 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: by how long they could hold their breath, because if 301 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: it was like a shot where they would hold on 302 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the body, their chests would not rise and fall. I 303 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: did see, however, a couple of times where you could 304 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: see it, and so you know that was an editing problem. 305 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 2: But you know you want to freak yourself out, I've 306 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: got one for you. Watch Deliverance, okay, yeah, right after 307 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: the rape scene, right after ned Baby gets boogered. Yeah, 308 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: look at the guy that's dead. Okay, yeah, his name's 309 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: Bill McKinney, I think, yeah, Bill McKinney. 310 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 311 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: For two minutes, Bill McKinney laid motionless, did not breathe 312 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: kept his eyes open. A mosquito landed on the white 313 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: of his eye, and the man didn't blink. 314 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: They didn't have to cut two minutes. 315 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: Just if you have a chance to watch that movie, 316 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: and most men do not watch that part of the movie. 317 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: If not, we usually leave crying, screaming and throwing up. 318 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: But you know, it's the reason a lot of us 319 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: don't ever want to end up in prison. 320 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 3: You know, it's the reason. And so anyway, so. 321 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: The reasons some of us don't want to take canoe 322 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: trips either. But yeah, but yeah, so you walk, You 323 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: come into a home with an individual that is deceased, 324 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 1: and your frame of reference for them is life. And 325 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: so the first thing that you notice when you place 326 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: your hand on them is this this iciness that they 327 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: have about them. But there were other things that were 328 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: not right. She could tell pretty quickly that that miss 329 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: done had endured some level of trauma. And when she 330 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: rang up ring up the local constabular areas they're called 331 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: over there, they arrived at the scene and what they saw, Dave, 332 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: this is I'm not saying that, you know, in Bristol 333 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: they had not had rape homicides before. That's ridiculous. Of 334 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: course they have. You know, it's a big town. They 335 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: would have seen it. But this, this is something that 336 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: really captured the town, the imagination, the press and everything 337 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: because it was It's not like this is a couple 338 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: who say, say in Britain, a couple of blokes that 339 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: were having at it in a local pub, pummeling each other. 340 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: You're talking about this diminutive, little old lady who's a 341 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: recluse that's found in her home and she's wearing her dress, 342 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: but it's all disheveled and it appears that a scarf 343 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: has actually been used around her neck to choke the 344 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: life out of her. 345 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: Dave, when I was reading over the description of Louisa 346 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: Dunn again a seventy five year old, very small woman, 347 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: and the description that she's lying flat on her back, 348 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: in her living room, cuts around her chin, bruising to 349 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 2: her neck and in her thigh, and hemorrhaging in her eyes. 350 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: What does the cuts, the hemorrhaging that what does that 351 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: tell you? Right off? The bat length flat on her 352 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: back seemed odd to me. I don't know why it did. 353 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 2: I would have thought she would have been in a 354 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: different position, but length flat in her back once. 355 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: The right Well, first off, the level of violence is. 356 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: First off, you're not going to have to use a 357 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of force with her. And you couple that 358 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: with the fact that the older you get, the more 359 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: obviously the more fragile you get, you know, I mean 360 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: a lot of us can reflect now, you know, like 361 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: our grandparents. Did you have notice how easily your grandparents 362 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: bruised and how long they would hold onto a bruise, 363 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: you know, on their arms, and their skin becomes almost 364 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: like parchment paper, you know. I remember that about my grandmother. 365 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: I remember it in a loving way. But you know, 366 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: you can see that the fragility of life, you know, 367 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: and so it doesn't take a lot to inflict injuries 368 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: to the elderly. However, in this particular case, there are 369 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: certain injuries that really stand out. You've got cuts, you've 370 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: got bruises, But one of the interesting manifestations here are 371 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: these injuries on the interior of the thighs. Most of 372 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: the time you're going to have these in a there 373 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: is a difference between raped and forcible rape. Some people 374 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: will be raped and they'll just acquiesce and give in, 375 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and it's horrible to think about they realize what's but 376 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: some people do really fight back. You couple that with 377 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: somebody that's incredibly savage. Even if the person is bending 378 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: to the will of the perpetrator, they'll still want to 379 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: be violent with them. And so you'll see like on 380 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: the inner thighs. I've actually seen contusions day on the 381 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: inner thighs of women that have been raped, where you 382 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: can actually match up finger patterns now fingerprints, but you 383 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: will see the outline of a hand where a hand 384 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: has been placed on the inner thigh and the legs 385 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: forced open. And then you know, things become begin to 386 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: get into focus at that point in time about what 387 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: actually probably happened in this environment. You know, the assailant 388 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: is pressing himself upon her. She probably reacts, you know, 389 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: with some level of violence on her own to try 390 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: to own her own to try to find this guy off, 391 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: and that's not happening. 392 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: What's he going to do? Well. 393 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if perpetrators mail perpetrators carry around lady 394 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: scarves in their pockets. I guess they could, if there's 395 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: some kind of they have some kind of serialized fetish 396 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: with this, But it would seem to me that you're 397 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: using what I would like to refer to as a 398 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: weapon of convenience. If she's got a scarf laying around 399 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 1: the house, this is something that he can actually wrap 400 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: around her throat and use as a ligature. And the 401 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: thing when you get a scarf, and if every everybody 402 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: will just imagine your mind, what I'm not talking about 403 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: like a what do you call it? Like a knit 404 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: scarf like you wear in the winter time. Okay, toboggan, 405 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: not a toboggan, but you know, a woolen scarf. I'm 406 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: talking about like a decorative scarf. They're very delicate most 407 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: of the time, and but as you take them and 408 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: you kind of twist them around, they become more robust, 409 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: and they truly do become a thicker ligature. But they're 410 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 1: not going to lease the say marks behind say, for instance, 411 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: a rope or a wire is going to leave behind, 412 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: but what it will leave behind are these delicate little 413 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: contusions underneath the skin. And scarfs themselves seem very very 414 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: soft and pliable. Some of them are nylon, many of 415 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: them are silk, but did you know even with silk, 416 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: it has an abrasive quality to it, and you can 417 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: see light, little surface abrasions on the skin, and underlying 418 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: those abrasions, you're actually going to see contusions in the 419 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: muscles around the neck. And this can be kind of verified, 420 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: i think, by virtue of the fact that they talk 421 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: about that she had this kind of storm of hemorrhage 422 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: in her eyes, which are of course what they're saying 423 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: in these reports is that what they're describing are actually 424 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: petikia and these particular hemorrhages. And I've had doctors that 425 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: have referred to them as particular storms. And it's because 426 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: they're so there's so many of them that they're almost innumerable, 427 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: because they're so tiny, and they like to refer to 428 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: them as punk tate, almost like a little dot, and 429 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: you can't it's hard to describe. You've never seen them. 430 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: But when you look at the white of the eye 431 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: the sclera, you'll see them there and also on the 432 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: inner lid of the eye as well. It's almost like 433 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,439 Speaker 1: they're matching up, so the little vessels in the lower 434 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: lid of the eye and sometimes the upper lid, and 435 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: then all over the white of the eye. The more 436 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: pressure that's applied, the more these vessels will give way. 437 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: And it's also an indication of life in a perimorum 438 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: state where they're fighting against us so robustly that the 439 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: eyes just become so congested with these things. It would 440 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: have been a very violent death for Louisa. But in 441 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: its wake, in its wake, that perpetrator that committed this 442 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: awful crime left behind physical evidence back in nineteen sixty 443 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: seven that has damned him in twenty twenty five. So 444 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: David nineteen sixty seven, Louisa Dunn is a homicide victim 445 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: in Bristol, Bristol, Britain, and the case is not solved. 446 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: It goes cold, kind of like her body was cold, 447 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: you know, per the description of the finder on that morning. 448 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: We jump all the way forward, I think it's nineteen 449 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: seventy three. Now we're going from one major port city 450 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: in Great Britain, which is on the west coast in 451 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: Bristol all the way to Ipswich, which is on the 452 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: east coast, which almost I'm going to be off of 453 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: my alignment here, which almost lines up. It's actually a 454 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: bit north. Ok, let me get to straight. So it's 455 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: northeast of London if you will. It's not in northeastern England. 456 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: That's way up north like York in that area, but 457 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: it Ipswich lines up closer to like being just south 458 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: of like Amsterdam, if you were to lay a straight 459 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: line cross it. It's north of Dunkirk, which of course 460 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: is in Belgium or France, I can't remember right on 461 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: the border there. And of course it's north of what 462 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: we know is the White Cliffs of Dover, you know, 463 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: where our boys would be coming back in. They knew 464 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,719 Speaker 1: that as they saw the White Cliffs of Dover they 465 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: had made it safely back from a bombing run. So 466 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: it's north of that area. But yet it is a 467 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: major port city. And I find this very interesting, Dave, 468 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: that we've got this homicide that took place back in 469 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven and that's unsolved in one port city, 470 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: and then we've got what turns out to be a 471 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: couple of rapes in a town that is on the 472 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: east coast of England and again a port city Dave. 473 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: Ten years later nineteen seventy seven, two older women seventy seven. 474 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: I don't I was thinking seventy three, but yeah, seventy seven. 475 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: The thing is is that when you go back to 476 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 2: the sixty seven rape and you mentioned the injuries and 477 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 2: the fight in her Yeah, because ten years later when 478 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: two older women, one sixty nine the other seventy four, 479 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 2: I think in Ipswich, when the Ibswitch rapist was labeled, 480 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 2: that's what they called him. Yep, seventy nine and eighty four. 481 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: That's hold the women were that were raped in Ipswich. 482 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: And just so you know, in nineteen sixty seven they 483 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: did fingerprinting and got a fingerprint and a palm print 484 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: out of the house where of the suspect. They've been fingerprinted. 485 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: Everybody in the area they fingerprinted. I think over five 486 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: thousand local men in Bristol. I think about that the 487 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: time it took to fingerprint, analyze and look and trying 488 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 2: to match up. So it was an ongoing project that 489 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: involved multiple, multiple agencies. By nineteen seventy there was one 490 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: person working on it. They'd exhausted everything they could do 491 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: to try to match up the fingerprint or palm print. Now, 492 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 2: ten years after the murder of Louisa Dunn, you have 493 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: a seventy nine and an eighty four or four year 494 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: old woman who are now. 495 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 3: In Ipswich and they are both raped. 496 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: So they do find fingerprints at the scene, and they 497 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: the investigators, they start doing the exact same thing they 498 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: did ten years earlier in Bristol. They start charting everybody. 499 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 2: They start charting fingerprints on every mail they could find 500 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: that had any kind of access to that area at 501 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: the time of those two rapes that were done by 502 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: the press labeled the Ipswich Rapist Show. 503 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, I got to tell you this is an 504 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: interesting thing, a comparative analysis between gathering of suspect data 505 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: when you compare it to the US and Great Britain. 506 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to throw a name out to you that 507 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: sounds rather odd. A guy named Klin and Pitchfork and yeah, 508 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: and Colin Pitchfork was responsible for the rape and murder 509 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: of two young girls in Great Britain. Well, Colin Pitchfork's 510 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: first case where DNA was actually used to convict somebody. 511 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: Oh, wow, every Yeah. 512 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. As a matter of fact, it came off of 513 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: the research that Sir Alec Jeffries was doing. Alec Jefferies 514 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: is considered to be the father of modern DNA forensic 515 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: DNA technology. Okay, and brilliant, brilliant mind. But when Colin 516 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: Pitchfork and I think this was in eighty six committed 517 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, these crimes, I think it was, you know, 518 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: like in nineteen nineteen seventy nine through eighty three or 519 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: something like that. I can't remember the exact dates the 520 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: area where he took these lives and committed these crimes. 521 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: Day they got a block of males in this area 522 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: and compelled them to give DNA samples. Can you imagine 523 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: them doing that in America? And you begin to think 524 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: about doing the fingerprints and compelling somebody to give up 525 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: their fingerprints. It's just a different way of policing. It's 526 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: a different way that they handle things. So this kind 527 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: of harkened back, you know, I'm thinking about this, and 528 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to think about, you know, how our 529 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: our two systems work. You know, and I know a 530 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: lot of people would say, well, if you got nothing 531 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 1: to hide, then you shouldn't you shouldn't fear anything. But yeah, well. 532 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: I guess so. You know that's the same thing, Dave. 533 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: Why won't you let them in the house to look 534 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 2: for that? Because they don't. 535 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 3: Have a right, that's why. 536 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 2: But David, he's got nothing to hide. I don't have 537 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 2: anything to hide, but they have no right to look. 538 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 2: You know, think about it, Mark Firman exists to drop 539 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 2: a bloody glove. 540 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 3: In your hallway, That's all I'm saying. 541 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: So you've got that specter that's out there. But either way, 542 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: with the Ipswich racist and how it applies to Louisa 543 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: Dunn is that they actually developed evidence day based upon 544 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: this partial palm print and fingerprint where they're able to 545 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: tie what they think eventually would be these cases together. 546 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: Dave, Well, I know that they were able to find 547 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 2: Rylan Headley is the guy's name, and Ryland Headley was 548 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: forty five years old when the rapes in Ipswich happened 549 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: in seventy seven, and he was one of the many 550 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: who actually was fingerprinted and he was matched up and 551 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 2: actually it went all the way through. He was guilty 552 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: of the crimes of burglary and rape and was sentenced. 553 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: Now here's the important part to pay attention to on 554 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: what happened to Ryland Headley when he was charged, arrested, charged, 555 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: convicted in the rapes of those two women in Ipswich 556 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven. Now he was sentenced to life 557 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 2: in prison. It was these crimes were considered so heinous 558 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: that this person did not need to be walking the 559 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: face of the earth. Remember, these are elderly women, seventy 560 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: nine and eighty four years old. 561 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: They couldn't. 562 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 2: One of the women actually tried to bite him, tried 563 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 2: to buy but you know why she couldn't. She didn't 564 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 2: have her dentures in. She couldn't leave a mark, that's 565 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 2: how hard she was struggling. And that impacted the judge 566 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 2: at sentencing when he heard this description, because these women 567 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: did not die, but they fought, and so Hedley was 568 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 2: sentenced to life. Well, his attorneys or barristers as they're 569 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: called there, whenever I get a letter from a barrister 570 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 2: that claims they've got some money for me overseas, you know, yeah, 571 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: get those emails about once a month, just send one 572 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: hundred dollars. 573 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 574 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 2: Anyway, so the barrister said, hey, these are rapes. This 575 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: sentence is excessive, and so there was an appeal of 576 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: the sentence of Ryland Headley, and the appeal court. 577 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 3: Actually lent heavily. 578 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 2: And I say this because it's really important to note 579 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 2: that there was a psychiatrist who came in and said, 580 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: he has no record of anything before this. He was 581 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: a good guy, of good character. We've got nothing on 582 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: him now. Granted they only know what he's been convicted 583 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 2: of kids as well, yes, oh yeah, married with children. 584 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 2: Forgot about that, And so you've got a guy of 585 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: good reputation. And they argued in that, and the judge 586 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: sided with the psychiatrist that this was a momentary lapse 587 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 2: in judgment and whatever you want to call it, and 588 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: reduced his sentence to seven years. So the Ipswich rapist 589 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy seven, Ryland Headley, walked out of prison 590 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty. Think about that for just a minute, 591 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan. 592 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that they would cut the sky loose. Yeah, 593 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, I guess hindsight is in fact twenty twenty. 594 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 3: They blamed his wife. They blamed his wife. 595 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: They said that she was not providing the sex that 596 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 2: he needed and he was committing the burglaries to satisfy 597 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: her need for stuff. 598 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 3: It was his wife's fault. 599 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: That's why he stole, burglarized, and raped these old women. 600 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: So she needed stuff and he needed sex. Yeah, so 601 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: he would pray upon the elderly, right, And that's essentially 602 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: excuse I guess, yes, well, seam, it was yeah, no kidding. 603 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: Well because of that though, because of what had occurred, 604 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: the story gets even more interesting as we've developed through 605 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: time and crime science, Dave, you know, databases, national databases 606 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: have been created relative to any kind of biological sample 607 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 1: that might come up. In the US, we have COTIS, 608 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: So codis is you have two categories. You have the 609 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: known offenders, Like if somebody gets hooked up, they're in jail, 610 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: they're hooked up on a rape charge or some kind 611 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: of sexual offense, you're compelled by law to give a 612 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 1: DNA sample and that goes into the database. The other 613 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: category is called the forensic database, which is a list 614 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: of unknowns. Well he he, the perpetrator in this case, 615 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: is compelled. His DNA from the seventy seven cases was 616 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: actually placed into the database that wound up with a 617 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,879 Speaker 1: match on his DNA that I think that they took 618 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: from him in twenty twelve, they went back and got 619 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: this from him. 620 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: Is that correct? 621 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 2: Okay, he got tangled up with law enforcement in twenty twelve. 622 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 2: Now we cannot be told what happened, because whatever he 623 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: was arrested for in twenty twelve, whatever the charge was, 624 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 2: whatever was going on, it was all dropped. And because 625 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 2: they worry about a person's appearance, I guess, so since 626 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 2: there was no adjudication of the case, it was just dropped. 627 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 2: We can't even find out what he was arrested for. 628 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: But it was involved enough that they did arrest him. 629 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,240 Speaker 2: They did the whole fingerprint thing all over again, updated 630 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 2: the records, and got DNA. 631 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that was real. And it was because 632 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: of that that they were able to actually go back 633 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: and if I remember correctly, all the way back with 634 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: the still homicide, would Louise had done they had done 635 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: a rape kit on her back then obviously, because there's 636 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: is obvious signs of sexual assault. Dave, you know, in 637 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: that case, they lost the rape kit. They lost it, 638 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: they lost the samples that were taken. But for over 639 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: fifty years they kept her clothing folded up inside of 640 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: a box away from daylight and kept it stowed. Now, 641 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 1: just imagine this. I don't see how they were able 642 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: to retain the clothing but didn't retain the rape kit 643 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, I don't know. It probably didn't go 644 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: to the same place, probably went by the hospital. 645 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: We lose stuff all the time here, you know, Yeah, 646 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: we do. It's numbing to me them the number of 647 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: important cases that we have, all this information that didn't 648 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: even happen a long time ago. We get lost because oh, 649 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,880 Speaker 2: we don't have the money to store things properly. 650 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: But anyway, Yeah, and we'll spend money on other things, 651 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: but you know, we don't have I don't know. Sometimes 652 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: I think it's an absence of common sense and an 653 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: absence of compassion. These poor women have been assaulted and 654 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: you can't do your due diligence to hold on to 655 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: rape get and secure it. I don't know. 656 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 3: It's a real head scratcher. 657 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: It always has been for me. 658 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 2: It is for me too, And I didn't realize it 659 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: was a problem until I started doing these shows. 660 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, in the last five years, I did. 661 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: Horrible, horrible, absolutely horrible. 662 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 3: Anyway, anyway, there were two interesting times of this too. 663 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 2: Joe two times two thousand and nine and twenty fourteen, 664 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: the case of Luis's case was brought back out. They 665 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: didn't just say in nineteen seventy we've exhausted everything we 666 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: can do. 667 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 3: They didn't do that. It was a cold case, but 668 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 3: they would revisit. 669 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: It, and then in two thousand and nine they actually 670 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 2: brought the case back to the four and looked at it. 671 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: Didn't find anything that's kind of surprising. But it was 672 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 2: in twenty fourteen, two years after the twenty twelve investigation, 673 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 2: that they brought it out again. But that's where you've 674 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 2: got no rape get you don't have the things you need. 675 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 2: So it's looked at multiple occasions, but it wasn't until 676 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 2: the last twelve months that they were able to go 677 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 2: to those clothing. And it was the clothing that provided 678 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 2: the dress. And that's what I got to ask you. 679 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 2: I even wrote it down here because I don't understand 680 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 2: what it means, Joe. What did they actually do, How 681 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 2: did they get how did they get the material out 682 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 2: of the clothing that they could then test. 683 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to mention any names, but the initials 684 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: are Bill Clinton. If you'll think back to the infamous 685 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: blue dress that Lewinsky retained. It's the same principle they 686 00:41:51,560 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: had seminal deposition on Louisa Dunn's clothing. Okay, And the 687 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,359 Speaker 1: way this happens is that most of the time nowadays 688 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: with clothing, you might not be able to see anything 689 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: with a naked eye, or as some people refer to it, 690 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: the unaided eye. What you'll do is use alternative lighting sources, 691 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: which you know you'll be able to see because light 692 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: works on wavelengths, right, and so you can use ultraviolet 693 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: light for instance, where the seminal stain will give off 694 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: a very particular type of luminescence when it's certain light lightweight, 695 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: when certain light lighting is applied to it. Now that 696 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: is merely that is merely a qualitative test. You can't 697 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: say who semen that is or if it contains sperms. 698 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: So all you can say is that this is consistent 699 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: with seminal deposition. So then you have to go in 700 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: and sample those areas and they go into a further 701 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: test on that particular bit of clothing after they've identified 702 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: it with what's called an acid phosphatase test, and when 703 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: man ejaculate contained within the the ejaculate there is a 704 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: certain high amount of an enzyme acid phosphatasee contained in there. 705 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: And when you can identify that, then you know that 706 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 1: you can go deeper with your examination relative to the 707 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: specifics about the identity of the individual. And it's through 708 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: that stain that they were able to claim a biological 709 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: profile after all of these years. Daveable, I know it is. 710 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,959 Speaker 1: It's mind blowing. And of course, because this subject had 711 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: been compelled to be entered into the database, they got 712 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,719 Speaker 1: to hit. They got to hit, they got to hit. 713 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: Once they brought this thing out. Now, I think that 714 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 1: they probably suspected him because one of the things that's 715 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,560 Speaker 1: going to kind of sure this thing up is this 716 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: partial pom print, And these are other compelling bits of evidence. 717 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: Remember you you no longer have any eyewitnesses or secondary 718 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,320 Speaker 1: eye witnesses. You don't have any any of the people 719 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: that were going to appear in court right back in 720 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: the late sixties. Only left one detective. And I think 721 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: that maybe her granddaughter is still alive, but she's she's 722 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: a human being. Her case is still open. And this 723 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: guy has been living his life all of these years. 724 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: Dave has been able to have a family. Hell, he's 725 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,359 Speaker 1: lived in two coastal cities. How about you. I don't 726 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: know about you. I'd love to have the opportunity to 727 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: live in a couple of coastal cities. You know. He 728 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 1: went from the West coast to the East coast, you know, 729 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: living living the life he wanted to live. Well, maybe 730 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: looking for work or doing whatever he did, but he 731 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: was able to freely move about the country. Louis Dunn 732 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: never had that chance. 733 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 2: Granted, she was seventy five years old, Joe, but she 734 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 2: wasn't dead until she came in contact with him. But 735 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 2: I have a question for you because something happened in 736 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,840 Speaker 2: twenty twelve where they actually were trying to get the 737 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 2: palm print from him, and as they're rolling the fingers 738 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 2: or whatever, I guess that was an issue. But they 739 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 2: did have that palm print, you know, that was a 740 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: big deal that they had in the Louisa Doune case. 741 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 2: When they were trying to get the palm print from 742 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 2: Ryland Headley in twenty twelve, he actually declined to give 743 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 2: them the print, saying that his arthritis was so severe 744 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 2: that he couldn't move his wrist that way, that he 745 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 2: couldn't flex it enough to actually provide them with the 746 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 2: exact part of the palm that they needed, yeah, which 747 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,280 Speaker 2: is how he dodged that bullet. 748 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that print that was left behind, just so 749 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: folks know, it starts if you'll find if you'll go 750 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,879 Speaker 1: to the base of your pinky, okay, kind of that 751 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 1: last knuckle there where it conjoins the palm and extends 752 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,160 Speaker 1: that side of your hand, extends all the way down 753 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: to where the palm of your hand connects to your wrist, 754 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: all right, And if you slice that about an echine 755 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: with that's the partial palm print they had on this guy. 756 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: That's how much of the palm. Now you've got a 757 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: lot of identifiers that are contained within there. There's a 758 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: lot of specific classification identifiers, and you've got a lot 759 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: of minutia, which are the little bits that we look for, 760 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,760 Speaker 1: like you hear us talk about things like ending ridges 761 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: and bifurcations and pores and all these other things that 762 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 1: we look for that are specific identifiers in printing itself. 763 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: That was there. So but the big thing here is 764 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,960 Speaker 1: that they were able to go back and compare this 765 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 1: DNA deposition all the way back from nineteen sixty seven 766 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: with this guy that had been compelled to enter it 767 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: into the database at this point in time. And you know, 768 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 1: this is kind of a cautionary tale, I think, and 769 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: it's we're going to see this mark my words right now, 770 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: right down the date and time, because I am telling 771 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: you we're going to see more and more of these cases, 772 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is going to be reliant 773 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: upon what kind of job the investigators did all those 774 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: years ago. And from this old investigator, I want to 775 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: send out a tip of the cap to those constables 776 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: back in nineteen sixty seven in Bristol that didn't give 777 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:58,359 Speaker 1: up and did their job. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 778 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: this is body Back XH