1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

2
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,160
Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

3
00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 2: And then, all of a sudden, fourteen year old Jennifer

4
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,840
Speaker 2: Chapple looks out the window and she sees a couple

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,880
Speaker 2: of things streaking across the sky, and then they hear explosions,

6
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 2: and then the plane shudders violently. The people who are

7
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 2: outside looking through the window realize their fighter planes and

8
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,879
Speaker 2: they're bombing the airport. People are screaming and shouting, get out,

9
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 2: get out, get out.

10
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

11
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,199
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

12
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,880
Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

13
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,880
Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

14
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,520
Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

15
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

16
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

17
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,320
Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

18
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is

19
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make, good and bad. It's

20
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:16,839
Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Today,

21
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,000
Speaker 1: I'm talking with author Stephen Davis. He wrote a book

22
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,880
Speaker 1: called Flight one four nine, A Hostage Crisis, a Special

23
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,200
Speaker 1: Secret Forces Unit and the Origins of the Gulf War.

24
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: This is a harrowing story about hundreds of passengers who

25
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 1: are held for up to five months in Kuwait as

26
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,680
Speaker 1: they sit right in the middle of a war. When

27
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,920
Speaker 1: you're saying this is a life story, what does it mean?

28
00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 2: Themes government, lying and manipulation a era of history nineteen

29
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 2: ninety which is little understood by people, but which has

30
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 2: had a profound effect on the lives of everyone in

31
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 2: the world. It's about people behaving badly and well under jeweys,

32
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,559
Speaker 2: the largest hostage taking in modern history, and a tale

33
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,760
Speaker 2: of terrible suffering which has lasted thirty years, where the

34
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,639
Speaker 2: people suffering have not had the public recognition they deserve.

35
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,239
Speaker 1: And just the psychological terrorism felt by people who are hostages,

36
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,639
Speaker 1: which I think we cannot understate in the story.

37
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 2: Yes, this is a large group of people from all

38
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 2: over the world Americans, British, but fifteen other nationalities who

39
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 2: end up as hostages at the mercy of Saddam Hussein

40
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,200
Speaker 2: and suffer terrible things. Even after thirty years of reporting

41
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,799
Speaker 2: this story, I continue to learn startling new information.

42
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: Well let's start with the beginning. It is August first,

43
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,720
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. They are going from London to Kuala Lumpur.

44
00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 2: Is that right, Yes, it's three hundred and eighty five

45
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 2: passengers and crew and they are on a British Airways

46
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,080
Speaker 2: flight one four nine which is sitting at Heathrow. The

47
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,240
Speaker 2: flight is going to Madras and to Kuala Lumpa in

48
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,519
Speaker 2: Malaysia final destination. But crucially there was a refueling stop

49
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 2: planned for Kuwait.

50
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,079
Speaker 1: Let's go back because I want some more details here.

51
00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 1: First of all, for people who don't know anything about Malaysia,

52
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,320
Speaker 1: give me a profile of Kuala Lumpur and why people

53
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: would be drawn There is a business.

54
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 2: Is it a beach, Yes, it's very interesting. Most people

55
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 2: on one for nine who were going to the final

56
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,960
Speaker 2: destination of Malaysia were going on holiday. Malaysia is known

57
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 2: for its very fine beaches and they were looking forward

58
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,680
Speaker 2: to some sun and sand. There were a few others

59
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,760
Speaker 2: who were going there to meet family and on some

60
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 2: of the passengers they were transferring at Kuala Lumpa to

61
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,640
Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand. So it was a place to

62
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 2: link with a flight for Australasia. So demographically the largest

63
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 2: group on board were French and Indian who were going

64
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: to get off at Madras. The Indians to be scattered

65
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,400
Speaker 2: all over the place. The French were going to the

66
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,200
Speaker 2: French Indiana colony, ponder Cherry. There were a large number

67
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,440
Speaker 2: of Americans on board who were coming from London obviously

68
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 2: to Malaysia. Some of them were actually stopping at Kuwait.

69
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,719
Speaker 2: It was their destination because they had jobs there. In Kuwait,

70
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,279
Speaker 2: a lot of expats are employed in banking and oil industries,

71
00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,120
Speaker 2: et cetera. This is August nineteen ninety, so before the

72
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 2: era of mobile phones, when flying was still more of

73
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,159
Speaker 2: a big thing than it is now. Basically a set

74
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 2: of filly, middle class people who were set out from

75
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 2: Heathrow with great optimism and hopes.

76
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,840
Speaker 1: So tell me about this time period you mentioned nineteen ninety.

77
00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 2: Okay, we had crucially a dispute between Iraq and Kuwait, which,

78
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,159
Speaker 2: for those of you who don't know your geography, lies

79
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,599
Speaker 2: just to the south of Iraq. The dispute was over

80
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,400
Speaker 2: an oil field which was half in Iraq and half

81
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 2: in Kuwait. It straddled the board, and Saddam Hussein had

82
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 2: accused the Kuwaits of stealing the his oil, stealing part

83
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,799
Speaker 2: of his revenue, and in speech after speech he threatened

84
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 2: to retaliate by invading. He had fought a brutal war

85
00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 2: against Iran, but to some extent he was a friend

86
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,760
Speaker 2: of the West. He had invited Western politicians like Donald

87
00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 2: Rumsfeld to visit him Baghdad, and the United States saw

88
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 2: him as a bolwick against Iran, which was considered to

89
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,600
Speaker 2: be their greater enemy. In this context, you have a

90
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 2: dictator making threats, and you have the West not really

91
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 2: paying too much attention. And at some stages there's a

92
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 2: crucial meeting. The US ambassador in Iraq, April Glassby meets Saddam.

93
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 2: Now this meeting is disputed what was said and what

94
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 2: the outcome was, but Saddam seems to have come away

95
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,159
Speaker 2: with the impression that the Americans weren't bothered about his

96
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,679
Speaker 2: dispute with Kuwait, and he interpreted that as a green

97
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 2: light that they weren't going to mind or they weren't

98
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 2: going to get in the way if he sent his

99
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 2: men into Kuwait. So that was one of the crucial

100
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:16,640
Speaker 2: moments of the saga. He'd been making these tremendous warlike speeches,

101
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,919
Speaker 2: and in early August nineteen ninety, satellite footage spotted a

102
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 2: huge military force from tanks with the Republican Guard who

103
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,479
Speaker 2: were gathered on the border of Kuwait. And that's the

104
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 2: day that British Airways flight one for nine was due

105
00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 2: to take off from London and fly to Kuwait.

106
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,599
Speaker 1: So this is pivotal in history. This was a direct

107
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: flight to Malaysia, or there was supposed to be a

108
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 1: stop in Kuwait, Is that right?

109
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,039
Speaker 2: Many of the passengers who got on board British Airways

110
00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 2: flight one for nine assumed the first stop was going

111
00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 2: to be Madras, India and the second stop was going

112
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 2: to be Malaysia, and they were somewhat surprised by the

113
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,520
Speaker 2: fact that there was going to be a stop in Kuwait,

114
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,159
Speaker 2: which was strictly fueling stop. The plane fly seven hours

115
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 2: and then it lands in Kuwait and it gets aviation

116
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 2: fuel on board. Many of the passengers who gathered that

117
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 2: day to get on the plane and who had heard

118
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 2: on the news that morning that Iraqi troops were gathered

119
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 2: on the border of Kuwait, or rather shopped to discover

120
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 2: that their first destination was, in fact Kuwait Airport.

121
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 1: I'm assuming shark is an understatement. That must have been

122
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 1: terrifying to realize that you're in a place that seems

123
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 1: to be the epicenter for what could be a huge war,

124
00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 1: and then you land.

125
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,680
Speaker 2: One of the most striking things in the book in

126
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,160
Speaker 2: an interview I did was the BA one full nine

127
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,360
Speaker 2: Chief perser Clive Worthy. He's on the road and he's

128
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 2: driving to Heathrow Airport that morning and he hears a

129
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 2: BBC report and it says there are more than one

130
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 2: hundred thousand troops on the border with Kuwait, and Clive thinks, well,

131
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,720
Speaker 2: obviously we're not going to stop there. And the British

132
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,840
Speaker 2: Airway's crew, by the way, when they got to the

133
00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,600
Speaker 2: airport to assemble, asked for a security briefing, and they

134
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,559
Speaker 2: were expecting the security briefing to come back from BA

135
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: saying yes, it's too dangerous, we're not going to fly.

136
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 2: And Clive said to his crew, you don't worry, guys,

137
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,280
Speaker 2: because I'm pretty sure the message is going to be

138
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 2: we're going to skip Kuwait and we'll go to an

139
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 2: alternative destination, maybe ba Ad. And they were really shocked

140
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 2: and disturbed when the message came back from British Airways. No,

141
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 2: the flight is going ahead is planned?

142
00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,160
Speaker 1: Tell me the Americanized version of what a pursa is.

143
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 2: Clyive Verthy was the chief purser of BA one four nine.

144
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,040
Speaker 2: That meant he was the outside of the cockpit. He

145
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 2: was the senior man on the plane. He was in

146
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 2: charge of organizing all the stewards and stewardesses. He was

147
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,120
Speaker 2: in charge of the boarding arrangements. It's a very senior position.

148
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,160
Speaker 1: So they land in Kuwait and then they're told that

149
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 1: they're going to refuel there and then they're going to

150
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: take off for Madras or Kuala Lumpur or somewhere else.

151
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:53,400
Speaker 1: Is that right?

152
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,719
Speaker 2: Yes, in Kuwait the refueling was next stop Madras, India

153
00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 2: and then finally on to Qualm.

154
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,079
Speaker 1: But what's the next thing that happens.

155
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,000
Speaker 2: So as the plane is sitting on the tarmac at

156
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 2: he Throw airport, it's delayed. And the delay is really

157
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 2: crucial in this story and very controversial. One version is

158
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,280
Speaker 2: that something was wrong with the air conditioning unit. The

159
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,800
Speaker 2: captain of the plane decides to hold the plane on

160
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 2: the ground to fix the air conditioning unit. Now, some

161
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,040
Speaker 2: people believe the whole air conditioning unit thing was a

162
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 2: diversion bogus, and it was merely designed to keep the

163
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 2: plane there for an extra two hours after its departure time.

164
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 2: While they are sat on the ground and all the

165
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 2: passengers are on board, at the very last minute, the

166
00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 2: doors open again and a group of young men get

167
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 2: on board, about nine or ten young men, and they

168
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 2: walk right through the plane to the back, and a

169
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 2: lot of passengers looked at them. Some passengers thought, oh

170
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,160
Speaker 2: are they oil workers? And other passengers looked at them,

171
00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,959
Speaker 2: and they look really fit, kind of determine young men,

172
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 2: and there's something of a presence about them. A couple

173
00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,120
Speaker 2: of the people on the plane, a Frenchman who actually

174
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 2: was a military officer, looked at them and thought their soldiers,

175
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 2: what are they doing here?

176
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: So that must have caused some quiet panic. Nobody is

177
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,439
Speaker 1: expressing any of this just yet. I'm assuming everybody's compliant.

178
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, depending on where you were sitting on the plane,

179
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,960
Speaker 2: you were either very disturbed or not. Somebody shrugged it off.

180
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 2: The strange thing about this saga, given how badly British

181
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 2: airways have behaved throughout and how determined me they've covered

182
00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,600
Speaker 2: up the story since was a lot of people flew

183
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 2: on that flight on the basis that British Airways was

184
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 2: this airline that could be trusted, you know. So many

185
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 2: of the crew said to me, well, we were worried,

186
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 2: but we knew British Airways would never land us in trouble.

187
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 2: This worldwide airline, this symbol of the United Kingdom. We

188
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,600
Speaker 2: weren't going to be in trouble. BA would look after us.

189
00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 2: And so even though some people were disturbed to see

190
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,679
Speaker 2: the men on board, they just thought, Okay, it's all

191
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 2: going to be good.

192
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 1: When does it seem like it's not going to be good.

193
00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 2: So British airwayte flight one point nine lands in Kuwait.

194
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: Some of the passengers get off to stretch their legs.

195
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,959
Speaker 2: Some other passengers stay on board the airline while it's

196
00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 2: being refueled. Of course that would never happen now, but

197
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,439
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety you could sit on board the plane

198
00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 2: while it was taking on board fuel. So they're sitting there.

199
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,040
Speaker 2: Other passengers are walking around the terminal and they noticed

200
00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,600
Speaker 2: a very very odd thing about the terminal. It was deserted,

201
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,440
Speaker 2: and they looked up at the arrival's board and realized

202
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 2: that the only plane that it landed was their plane,

203
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 2: So they're really starting to worry about it at this point.

204
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, fourteen year old Jennifer

205
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 2: Chappell looks out the window and she sees a couple

206
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,840
Speaker 2: of things streaking across the sky, and then they hear explosions,

207
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 2: and then the plane shudders violently. The people who are

208
00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 2: outside looking through the window their fighter planes and they're

209
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,520
Speaker 2: bombing the airport. So on the plane, the plane is shaking.

210
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,320
Speaker 2: It's being were fueled with fifty thousand gallons worth of

211
00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 2: aviation fuel, and the airfield's being bombed. People are screaming

212
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,559
Speaker 2: and shouting, get out, get out, get out. They rush

213
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,680
Speaker 2: out of the plane and onto the gangway and into

214
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,600
Speaker 2: the terminal. In the chaos, there's a lot of stuff

215
00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,920
Speaker 2: left behind, which turns out to be crucial. Later, an

216
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 2: American passenger called jan Bat, who had a lot of

217
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,760
Speaker 2: medical issues, left his medicine on board. Another passenger left

218
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,520
Speaker 2: her diabetic medicine on the plane, and she was lucky

219
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 2: because one of the British Airways crew raced back and

220
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,840
Speaker 2: grabbed it. Meanwhile, in the terminal, they noticed a couple

221
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 2: of other odd things as the airfield was being bombed,

222
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 2: one of which was there were military Kuwaiti guards there,

223
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 2: but they looked at their holsters and the holsters were empty.

224
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,600
Speaker 2: They'd taken their weapons out and been disposed of or

225
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 2: left behind. So here they are with this amazing drama bombing.

226
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,680
Speaker 2: A lot of them thought were in trouble. Here a

227
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,240
Speaker 2: seventeen year old German who I interviewed, so this is

228
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 2: not the holiday I thought I was going to get.

229
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,120
Speaker 2: And shortly afterwards, of course, things get worse when Iraqi

230
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,079
Speaker 2: troops turn up at the airport and round all these

231
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 2: people up and take them to a hotel.

232
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 1: Give me context, Stephen for hostage situations in general. So

233
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,920
Speaker 1: there's the Iranian embassy that has happened already in London, right,

234
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,360
Speaker 1: What are people who are sitting on this plane, the

235
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,920
Speaker 1: average Australian American? Whoever, what is their context for people

236
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,720
Speaker 1: who have been taking hostage up until nineteen ninety.

237
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good point. Some of them thought

238
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,079
Speaker 2: about hostage taking. Some of them thought about the Americans

239
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 2: taken hostage in Iran as the Ayatola took over, and

240
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 2: then they thought, what a terrible ordeal those people suffered,

241
00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 2: and how long it took to get them out, And

242
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 2: as it had happens, and rather disturbingly, the hostages from

243
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,280
Speaker 2: one for nine ended up having a worse time, a

244
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 2: far worse time than any of these previous hostage takings.

245
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 2: And early on it became very apparent how bad things

246
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: were going to be. They were put on buses and

247
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 2: they were taken to the airport hotel, and the passengers

248
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 2: got off, and one of the stewardesses from one four

249
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,560
Speaker 2: nine got back onto the bus to check if anybody

250
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 2: had left belongings on board, bear in mind that very

251
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,440
Speaker 2: few of them had had the chance to grab even

252
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 2: their check in bags in the rush to get off.

253
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 2: She got on the bus, she heard somebody behind her.

254
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 2: She turned around and there was a Rockie soldier with

255
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 2: an AK forty seven and he was grinning at her.

256
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 2: He came forward to grab her. She screamed, but nobody heard,

257
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 2: and a steward who had got off the plane came

258
00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 2: back on, saw what was happening, tried to intervene was

259
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 2: punched to the ground. He got out and screamed at

260
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 2: Iraqi soldiers nearby, come and help her. Can't you see

261
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 2: what's happening. One of them laughed and said he's just

262
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 2: having some fun. And she was taken, of course, in

263
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,400
Speaker 2: greatly distressed off the bus. And that's the moment people

264
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 2: knew they were really in serious trouble. And that particular

265
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 2: incident had a grim aftermath. So Clive Rthie, when he

266
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 2: found out about it, found the senior Iraqi officer and said,

267
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 2: one of your men has committed a rape. And the

268
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 2: officer said okay, and he gave up some orders, and

269
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 2: eventually they brought two men into the hotel and the

270
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,360
Speaker 2: stewardess was there and Clive was there, and he says

271
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,480
Speaker 2: to the stewardess, was it one of them? And the

272
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 2: stewardess says yes him. And the officer gets out his

273
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 2: gun and tries to hand it to the stewardess and says,

274
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 2: do you want to shoot him? Can imagine how disturbed

275
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 2: she is already. And then he turns to Clive and

276
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 2: says do you want to shoot him? In co says no, no, no,

277
00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 2: I don't want to shoot him at you. I want

278
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 2: you to deal with them. And sometime afterwards the guy

279
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 2: was taken away, and shortly afterwards people in the hotel,

280
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 2: heard a shot and it was him being executed. This

281
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 2: is in their first few hours in Kawait, and as

282
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 2: you can see, this was a sign that this was

283
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 2: going to be a very grim ordeal. Indeed, it's important

284
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 2: to note that when the plane landed and the door opened,

285
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 2: there was a Kuwaiti royal on board a VIP and

286
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 2: he was traveling in first class. When the plane landed

287
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 2: in Kuwait and the door opened, Clive was surprised to

288
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 2: be greeted by a uniformed British military officer. And the

289
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 2: military officer said you're late. Well, why are you late?

290
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,560
Speaker 2: And Clive said, oh, we were delayed on the ground,

291
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 2: so bear in mind that they were two hours late.

292
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 2: And the military officer said, I want the blah blah blah,

293
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,400
Speaker 2: and Clive can't quite remember what he said, but Clive

294
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 2: assumed that he wanted the VIP. No, he said, I

295
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 2: want that other group, the group at the back of

296
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 2: the plane. So they were summoned and came through and

297
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 2: got off, and there were men waiting to meet them,

298
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,720
Speaker 2: and then the Smithy Stereos group disappeared and were never

299
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 2: seen by any of the passengers again and alone among

300
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 2: the people on one four nine were never taken hostage.

301
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 1: So what is the conclusion of that that group in

302
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 1: the back.

303
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,879
Speaker 2: Well, the conclusion is they were a secret team who

304
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 2: were sent into Kuwait, and exactly what they were there

305
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 2: for and what they were doing becomes clear later on.

306
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: And that's the secret that both the Americans and the

307
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 2: British governments have spent thirty years trying to suppress.

308
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: So let's go back. How do you even contain a

309
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 1: group of people like that? I guess with enough ak

310
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:36,920
Speaker 1: forty sevens it's not a problem.

311
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bear in mind there were about one hundred thousand

312
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 2: Iraqi troops invaded Kuwait, so there were a lot. They

313
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 2: were a mixture, by the way, highly disciplined, well trained

314
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,040
Speaker 2: Republican guard and conscripts who barely had proper uniforms and

315
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,480
Speaker 2: often were hungry themselves and so stole the hostages food. Initially,

316
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,120
Speaker 2: the Iraqis were shocked to have this plane delivered into

317
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,320
Speaker 2: their hands. They hadn't expected, so they didn't know what

318
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 2: to do with them. And this is a really interesting

319
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,919
Speaker 2: example of news manipulation. And as journalists know, the first

320
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,560
Speaker 2: version of a story is often the one that's believed.

321
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,920
Speaker 2: So I remember being on the news desk of The

322
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 2: Independent on Sunday in London, which i'd helped to launch

323
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 2: in August nineteen ninety. I was quite interested in the

324
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,879
Speaker 2: plane and the word put out by the Foreign Office

325
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 2: was don't worry. Yes, it's a mistake, but all these

326
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 2: people are okay. They're in luxury hotels and they're in

327
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 2: the sunshine, and they're probably drinking cocktails by the pool

328
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,040
Speaker 2: and it's just like an extended little holiday for them.

329
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,879
Speaker 2: In a way, that was partially true because they were

330
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,880
Speaker 2: taken to luxury hotels. Initially, of course, they had been

331
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 2: a rape and it was already clear they were in

332
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 2: a bad way. So Saddam Hussein realized these hostages were

333
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,919
Speaker 2: going to be a great bargaining ship against the West,

334
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 2: so he scattered them at seventy locations all over Iraq

335
00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:57,879
Speaker 2: and Kuwait.

336
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,239
Speaker 1: Makes them impossible to rescue, then, is that ray?

337
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 2: Yes, and also places where he thought the Allies might bomb,

338
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 2: so they became known as human shields. That's where the

339
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 2: word human shields comes from. So they were scattered at

340
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 2: all these locations, and ironically enough, this is when Saddam

341
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: Hussein actually had weapons of mass destruction programs, unlike two

342
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 2: thousand and three in nineteen ninety, he actually had them

343
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,160
Speaker 2: and some people ended up at nuclear weapons and chemical

344
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 2: weapons facilities. So BA one four nine had been delivered

345
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 2: into the hands of Saddam Hussein and he had been

346
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 2: gifted all these hostages.

347
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,360
Speaker 1: Tell me, is this something that comes at the end

348
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 1: where we find out exactly how this happened. If British

349
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,159
Speaker 1: Airways is surprised and the Iraqis are surprised, how do

350
00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 1: you reconcile what happened?

351
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 2: Okay, So first off, the role of British Airways it's

352
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 2: really significant in this. After years of investigating this story,

353
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 2: I found out that the captain of flight one four nine,

354
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 2: Richard Bunyate, was an asset for six British Intelligence and

355
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: I found out and when we launched the book in

356
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 2: August this year, we had a press conference which turned

357
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 2: out to be very controversial and very well covered. For

358
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 2: the whole of the time. British Airways have said the

359
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,120
Speaker 2: following before flight one four nine took off, our man

360
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 2: in Kuwait took advice from the British embassy and the

361
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 2: British embassy said, no, there won't be an invasion and

362
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 2: it's safe to fly, and so we flew. That's this

363
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: story that they've stuck to for thirty years.

364
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,120
Speaker 1: This is British Airways, right.

365
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 2: British Airways. That turns out to be absolutely untrue. A

366
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 2: very brave man called Tony Pace, who had a title

367
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 2: at the embassy but whose actual title was the six

368
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 2: British Intelligence Station chief in Kuwait, came forward to help

369
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 2: me with the book and appeared at the press conference.

370
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: And Pace was the man that British Airways had taken

371
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 2: advice from about whether it was safe to fly.

372
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: Terrible advice.

373
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 2: Ah, but this is the thing, No, he says, that

374
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 2: was not his advice at all. He says what he

375
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 2: told them was, if you have a plane going through

376
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: tomorrow morning, that is at exactly the time that one

377
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: four nine would go through, it'll be caught in the invasion.

378
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 2: So he told them the exact opposite of the phrase

379
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: it's safe to fly. And that was confirmed in a

380
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: statement that the British Foreign Secretary last month or the

381
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 2: month before was forced to make, and a statement from

382
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 2: the ambassador. So here is an airline, British Airways, who

383
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 2: said for thirty years, these people got stuck because we

384
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: were told by the embassy it was safe to fly,

385
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 2: and that turns out not to be true it all,

386
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: and it turns out that the pilot was an MI

387
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: six asset. So my conclusion from that, Lord King, the

388
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 2: chairman of British Airways at the time, was a very

389
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,959
Speaker 2: close friend of Missus Thatcher, the Prime Minister, and it

390
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 2: is clear to me that British Airways allowed the plane

391
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,040
Speaker 2: to land in Kuwait as a favor to the British

392
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 2: government to get this secret group on the ground.

393
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: So to clarify, you've confirmed that MI six assets were

394
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: on the plane, but no one has ever figured out

395
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: what they were actually used for. Won't they be scrutinized

396
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: if there's a commercial airliner landing in Kuwait.

397
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: It's a terrible idea. It's one of the worst ideas

398
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 2: anybody's ever had. I'm afraid it is not uncommon for

399
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: public transport to be used as a cover for secret missions.

400
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: In America, in the UK obviously. Is this all over

401
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:52,919
Speaker 1: the world?

402
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: Oh yes, absolutely. One of my other major investigations as

403
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: a journalist is the sinking of the Fairy Estonia in

404
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 2: the Baltic which is one of the worst shipping disasters

405
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 2: in Europe since the Titanic, and it turns out the

406
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: Estonia was being used as a cover for a smuggling

407
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: operation to get stuff out of Russia, secret stuff and

408
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: get it to Sweden. So unfortunately this is all too common.

409
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: So this group in the back were six, is that right,

410
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: the ones that they were getting out.

411
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 2: So this is an interesting organization. It's designed for the

412
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 2: government to literally be able to deny it. So John Major,

413
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister, was able to say in a statement,

414
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: no serving British military personnel on the plane. There's this

415
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: secret group they used to be called the Increment. These

416
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 2: are soldiers and spies, full time soldiers and spies, special

417
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: forces and intelligence signals Core. But in a sleight of

418
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 2: hand they leave the military and get paid privately for

419
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: a period of time as part of the secret group

420
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: called the Increment, and that provides deny ability. The CIA,

421
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: by the way, have exactly the same sort of operation,

422
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: so that enables a politician to stand up and say,

423
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: no serving British military personnel. Of course they are serving,

424
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: but for the period of time they've gone on this

425
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: secret mission, they've effectively become private contractors.

426
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: But I'm presuming that the British government was not aware

427
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: that the civilians would be taken hostage. Also, did they

428
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: just assume that this would be something that would be safe.

429
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: So the secret team who I've interviewed two of when

430
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 2: they were briefed, they said, when the iraqis invaded, the

431
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: Kuwaiti military will probably hold out for say three to

432
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: five days. That was what the mission planning was based on.

433
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: So if you imagine when one four nine landed, if

434
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: the Kuwaiti military was still fighting and holding out, yeah,

435
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 2: the plane would have taken off and nobody would have

436
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: been in either.

437
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: Wiser they're bigger worries.

438
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 2: Yes. Unfortunately, the Kuwaiti military collapsed like a pack of

439
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: cards and rather than three to five days, Iraqi troops

440
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 2: and special forces reached the airport in three hours. And

441
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: that is because the Kuwaiti royal family took off for

442
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia at the first sign of trouble in a

443
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: long convoy of Mercedes and range rovers, having left no

444
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: instructions for the defense of their country. To be fair,

445
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 2: they did not think when they planned the mission that

446
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: the one four nine people would be trapped on the ground.

447
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: But here's an important thing. They have also said for

448
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: years that they did not know the invasion had started

449
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: until after the plane had landed. Missus Thatcher gave a

450
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: personal statement to the House of Comments. Every single thing

451
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: she said was a lie.

452
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: Tell me about the people and how they've now been

453
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: disseminated to seventy different places. You said some are at

454
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: luxury hotels.

455
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: No, there were at luturally hotels for three days because

456
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: the Iraqis didn't know what to do with them, and

457
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: that allowed the British Foreign Office to spin the story

458
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: that everything was going to be okay. Then they were

459
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: scattered all over Kuwait and Iraq, and the horror stories

460
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: began in a calculation made by the British and a

461
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: report that they then kept secret. Three and a half

462
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: thousand documented war crimes against the human shields, three and

463
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: a half thousand, two thousand against UK citizens and one

464
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: and a half thousand against the citizens of other countries.

465
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: We are talking sexual assaults. We are talking near starvation conditions, torture,

466
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: mock executions. We are talking, for example, at one camp,

467
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: people are woken up in the middle of the night

468
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: and they are driven out into the desert. They're made

469
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: to get out at gunpoint. They're given shovels, they're made

470
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: to dig a trench. They're made to crouch in front

471
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: of the trench while the soldiers line up behind them.

472
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 2: And of course at that stage they've been praying. They

473
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: think they're going to die. There's a click and the

474
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: soldiers fall about laughing. It was just straight psychological torture.

475
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: That's the mark execution.

476
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: Yes, we're talking about as I said, so desperately hungry

477
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 2: captives ribe a guard to get them food, and the

478
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: guard was a conscript. Even the Iraqi conscripts weren't being

479
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: fed properly. So he comes back with the leg of

480
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: a giraffe from the local zoo and they don't want to,

481
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 2: but they eat it because they're desperate. They're literally collapsing

482
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: with hunger. At one stage they took a look at

483
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: a cat and were thinking, shall we kill the cat

484
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: and eat it? And it turns out they didn't have

485
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 2: time because one of the iraqis killed the cat and

486
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: ate it. We're talking about constant fear, you know, fear

487
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: that you'll be bombed by your own sides. At one

488
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: camp Clive Ir they noticed they were digging a deep

489
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: trench and he said to the guard, what are you

490
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: digging And the guard said, oh, that's just a latrine,

491
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: mister Clive, And Clive said, no, we've already got a latrine.

492
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 2: Come on, tell me what it's for. And the guard says, oh,

493
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: it's to burn the rubbish, bury the rubbish, and Clive says, look,

494
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 2: I know that you do that elsewhere. Tell me what

495
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: it's for. And eventually the guy says, look, we have

496
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 2: instructions that the moment the invasion starts where to shoot

497
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: you and bury you in that trench. So for months

498
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: on end, these people lived in the most horrendous conditions,

499
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: very bad psychological and physical conditions, and for many of them,

500
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: by the way, they never ever recovered.

501
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: Remind me of Clive's position, because I know we've talked

502
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 1: about him a lot.

503
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: So Clive was the chief person of BA one four nine,

504
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: and he was famous throughout the fleet as being the calmest,

505
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: most unflappable man. But you know, when I've spoken to

506
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: Clive over the years, like so many of these people,

507
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: even decades later, there'll be a moment where they remember

508
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: something terrible and they'll tear up, or they'll start to shape.

509
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: These hostages suffered lifelong conditions, and you know that's what

510
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: makes me angry. This is a story that everybody should

511
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: know about the terrible things that happened to these people

512
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: and why it happened. But the British and American governments

513
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: for a long time quite successfully have succeeded in keeping

514
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: it a secret.

515
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: Tell me how long this is. So they are spread out,

516
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: they are being tortured by various ways. And you know

517
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: these are people that sound like are from all different

518
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: socioeconomic backgrounds. Are they ranked or any Certain types of

519
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: people treated better than other types of people.

520
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: No, it was entirely random. On rare occasions, you were

521
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: lucky enough to end up with a fairly humane captor.

522
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: One of my strong interviews, a man called Barry Manners

523
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: ended up in a damn in northern Iraq, and his captor,

524
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: an engineer mister Role, defied Sadam's orders and actually treated

525
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: his hostages kindly, invited them to his house, gave them

526
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: cups of tea, got them extra food. The nice aspect

527
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: of that story, by the way, is after Barry got

528
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: out and came back, he went back to Iraq several

529
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: years later tracked down mister Role his captor, and the

530
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: two became fast friends. Mister Rowl and his family now

531
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: live in Sydney, Australia, and Barry and him have been

532
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: friends for all of these years. So this was the

533
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: rare occasion where you were well treated. For the people

534
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: who ended up in camps run by the Batists who

535
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: were Sadam's hardliners. It was just completely grim from beginning

536
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: to end.

537
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: Do people dive? Do we lose any of those three

538
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty five passengers in crewmen?

539
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Strangely enough, none of the passengers and crew died. Then

540
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: many died early. All three people in the cockpit, by

541
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: the way, later died in their fifties. I think the

542
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: stress was too much. But they were held for up

543
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: to five months, unbelievable. He released people randomly. At one

544
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: stage he released the women and children, but some of

545
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: the wives decided to stay with their husbands rather than

546
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: get out, so a lot of very difficult decisions were made.

547
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: But yes, five months, five really grim months of hell,

548
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: and then nobody could really guess half the time, of course,

549
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: what was in Sadam's mind. He was a mercurial figure.

550
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: The Allies were desperately worried. Of course, they were gathering

551
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 2: for the great pushing to Kuwait kick the Iraqis out.

552
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: Desert storm was coming, and they were desperately worried about

553
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: the fate of all the hostages. And then in December,

554
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: Saddam suddenly announced they could all go home. He'd given

555
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 2: away one of his trump cards. Nobody really knows why,

556
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: but let's face it, he was not a normal person.

557
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: He was not And the fact that they came home,

558
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: by the way, before the war started is also crucial

559
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: because they were immediately forgotten about. I know even as

560
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 2: a journalist then, and I'd been following the story. I

561
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: was on the news desk of the Independent on Sunday

562
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: in London. You know, when a war comes, we're all

563
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: geared up for covering the war. That's all that was

564
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: in the headlines. So sadly most of the media forgot

565
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: about these people. It was only after the war finished

566
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: that I started thinking, again, what was that about one

567
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: full nine. I'd had a call from a contact very

568
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: early on saying you should look into this. What people

569
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: are saying about this is not true. And so that's

570
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: when I started investigating. And I'm still working on aspects

571
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: of it thirty one years later. It's taken half my life.

572
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: How do you get someone from six to talk to

573
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: you about something so horrific that the British government was

574
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: responsible for? In the American government, obviously.

575
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: You spend a long time cultivating their trust. Most people

576
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: will not talk in the act of talking. You should

577
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: bear in mind that he breached the Official Secrets Act

578
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: and faced a prison sentence if they pursued it. So

579
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: it was a very courageous act. But he also had

580
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: to ensure that he could trust me to report his

581
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: story properly. And finally, after fifteen months, right up to

582
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: the last minute, I thought the British government might step

583
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: in to stop him, but very courageously he appeared alongside

584
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: me at this press conference and confirmed a lot of

585
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: the story. And so I own a great deal of

586
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: thanks for that.

587
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: And how many people? How many passengers and crew did

588
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: you end up speaking with for your book? Three hundred

589
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: and eighty five total on board.

590
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 2: About half, and I'd still like to speak to the

591
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: other half. Some of the passengers I've interviewed seven or

592
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: eight times, and even up to the publication of the book,

593
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: I was getting new information. And then since the book

594
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: came out, yet more people have approached me who I'd

595
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 2: never heard of before, with other amazing stories which are

596
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: now going to be in hopefully the paperback edition and

597
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: the podcast. So it's been a bit of an epic journey. Yeah,

598
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 2: and I've had to bear in mind the whole time

599
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: that these are victims of trauma, many of them have PTSD,

600
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: and so you have to be careful because you are

601
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: asking them to talk about things which will trigger the

602
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: most appalling memories.

603
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: This is incredible and naive of me to ask this,

604
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: But is there not a class action lawsuit that can

605
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 1: be filed somewhere against someone so that these people get

606
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: some kind of justice.

607
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very good question. The legal treatment subsequently

608
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: of the passengers vary depending on their nationality. In Texas,

609
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: a very good lawyer called Bill Newman, who I've interviewed

610
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 2: on several occasions, mounted a class action lawsuit against British Airways,

611
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: and at one stage I've read the affidavits. The British

612
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: Airways explanations for what happened was so ridiculous that clearly

613
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: they decided that no Texas jury should ever hear this

614
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 2: because it would look very bad for them, so they

615
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: settled that in secret. So Bill's clients got secret settlement.

616
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: Another group of US passengers sued Saddam whose but it

617
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: fell over over jurisdictional and other issues. But in Britain

618
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: passengers sued, And I think this tells you a bit

619
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: about the difference between Britain and the United States in

620
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: terms of individuals being able to sue. That case went

621
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: all the way to the House of Lords and was

622
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: thrown out under a technicality. Basically, the House of Lords said,

623
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: this is covered by the Warsaw Convention, which covers every

624
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: passenger ticket, and so you can't sue. So these people

625
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 2: got nothing. You know, some people I remember telling me,

626
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 2: I said, what did you get from British Airways? And

627
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 2: some of them got a letter of apology and a

628
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: check for five hundred pounds to cover their lost baggage.

629
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt any twinge of concern about your

630
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: safety because of this deep reporting? That is it really

631
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: gets to the heart of what we fear is we

632
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: are in a nefarious government, and I think that your

633
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: story really gets to the heart of that.

634
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I have, indeed only in August just gone and

635
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: when I went over for the press conference of the

636
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 2: day before the press conference, I had lunch with my

637
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: MI six source. My wife Penny said to me, not jokingly,

638
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: in London, don't stand too close to the edge of

639
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: the platform in the London underground.

640
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding.

641
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 2: Over the years, I've been harassed. I've been deliberately sent

642
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: disinformation to throw me off the track. I got sent

643
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: some documents which were reported to be actual documents confirming

644
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 2: the secret mission. I mean, the kind of stuff you

645
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: never see as a journalist, and they looked very real,

646
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: and I showed them to a British Special Forces guy

647
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: and he said, yes, they're will And it turned out

648
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 2: I nearly published them. It turned out that one of

649
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: the dates at the end, which I only noticed at

650
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: the last minute, was wrong, and so I teached disinformation

651
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,479
Speaker 2: and misinformation here at university. This was a classic one

652
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: where they sent the stuff and the hope that I

653
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 2: would publish it and then I would be completely discredited.

654
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,479
Speaker 2: That was the goal. I've been attacked in the House

655
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: of Commons. My sources told me my emails were being read,

656
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: my phone was bagged. I'm a bit used to this

657
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: because I've done other stories about spies and Special Forces,

658
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: other stories about six agents. But yeah, it can be intimidating.

659
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: Also legal threats.

660
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in about the last.

661
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: Ten or thirty years, I've been pursuing this alone. Other

662
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: journalists just gave up on the story a long time ago,

663
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: and I've been doing it in my own time. And yeah,

664
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: you can sometimes think, am I really going to get there?

665
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: Am I really going to get a book published? But

666
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: you know, it made it worthwhile. After the press conference,

667
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: we had all the Human Shields, a lot of them

668
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 2: gathered at the press conference, a lot of my interviewees,

669
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 2: and at the end of it, there was a lot

670
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: of media there. I had this moment where I looked

671
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: at the Human Shields and I thought to myself, have

672
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: I raised their expectations beyond what can be achieved. They

673
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: all now think they're going to get an apology or resolution.

674
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: And I actually went somewhere and sat by myself for

675
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 2: two minutes. I felt, I don't know, a little shaking.

676
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 2: I thought maybe I've done the wrong thing here. And

677
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: then I went up and all of the Human Shields

678
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: were there, and they came over and they hugged me

679
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: and they greeted me. Oh, and we all cried, and

680
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: then I thought, Okay, this is all right now. And

681
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: even though many of them have suffered by the act

682
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 2: of being interviewed, by the act of having to remember things,

683
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: it's fair to say that all of them remain completely

684
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: supportive of the reporting and the idea that I'm helping

685
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: them get to the truth.

686
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure in some way any apology they received from anybody,

687
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: British Airways or British government, American government would seem hollow.

688
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: And the real benefit for them is that because of you, somebody,

689
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: here's their story. It happened. It's real. It's not gaslighting

690
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: that happened thirty years ago. So that's an incredible gift

691
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: you've given them. Stephen.

692
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I think one of the things for them like

693
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: that they've given up hopes. I mean, the British government

694
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: is never going to own up to us, never going

695
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: to apologize, and the American government, which helped in the

696
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: cover up, is never going to do so. Most people

697
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: know now if you were a human shield of the

698
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 2: First Gulf War, you suffered terribly, and that's good for them.

699
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 2: That's good for them to have that knowledge.

700
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Kara Robertson on

701
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden who took an axe.

702
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: There's so much about Lizzie Borden, her church or otherwise

703
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 3: kind of but I'll exist. That just seems so inconsistent

704
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: with the kind of murderous violence. She's someone who was

705
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: sitting there in the courtroom every day, perfectly turned out.

706
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: She has a little special curl she works on a haircurl.

707
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: Is that what it is?

708
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: Uh huh? And you just think, can you really picture

709
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 3: her taking a hatchet?

710
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available for

711
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked

712
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of Tenfold More Wicked.

713
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer

714
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

715
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

716
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: right tenfold War Media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi,

717
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum, Our sound designer is Andrew Epen.

718
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork.

719
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark,

720
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

721
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more wicked and on Twitter at

722
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: tenfold more. And if you know of a historical crime

723
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in

724
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldwar wicked dot com.

725
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

726
00:40:59,160 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: Wicked Words