WEBVTT - A Way Forward for Municipal Golf 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.040 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.960 I'm Garrett Morrison, Managing editor at the Frida Egg. Today 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:10.040 we have part two of our deep dive into Frida 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.600 Egg founder Andy Johnson's trip to the Carolinas. Part one 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.360 was all about Kiowa, and this time we focus on 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.040 municipal golf. But first, this episode is brought to you 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.760 by the Fridagg Print Shop. You'll find it in our 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.400 pro shop at proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot com. We 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.960 have a newly redesigned print section, freshly stocked with beautiful 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.320 photography of great golf courses. The latest editions include photos 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.640 of Wildhorse Golf Club in Nebraska and the Ocean Course 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.960 at Kiowa. The light, by the way that Andy got 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.800 at Kiowa is just sensational. So check it out proshop 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.040 dot Thefrida Egg dot com and take a look at 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.840 our prints. You can get them framed, mounted on metal, 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.680 or you can just order the print itself. Great way 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.440 to support what we do. All right, So we've got 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.280 a bit of a hybrid episode for you today. The 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.840 first thirty minutes will actually be a conversation between Andy 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.880 Johnson and Troy Miller. Troy Miller is the architect who 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:11.400 recently did a SETH Rayner inspired renovation of Charleston Municipal 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.000 golf course. It's really cool work, and we also have 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.240 an article in a video about it. You can find 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.040 those on the Friday dot com and on our YouTube page. 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.600 After the interview with Troy Miller, Andy and I will 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.360 come in with some additional thoughts about Charleston muni and 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.080 also about some public courses he saw in Asheville, North Carolina. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:32.800 And this discussion gives us a chance to touch on 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.560 some bigger ideas about municipal golf in general and how 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.760 it might find a way forward in the twenty first century. So, 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.320 without further ado, here's Andy and Troy Miller. I miss 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:46.119 a green, for example, I'm already upset when I find 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:48.240 my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.680 I find my ball in a frid Egg Friday egg 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:53.840 then dreaded Frida egg Frida, egg Frida, egg egg Frida 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:56.120 egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:56.400 of the. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:13.080 Hump course game. Tell us a little bit about your path. 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:15.200 So I grew up here in Charleston, grew up in 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:19.120 the golf industry, My father's a golf professional, and because 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.840 of that I was exposed to some really great architects 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.840 early on in life, most notably Pete Die when we 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.280 were building a the Ocean course. I was nine years 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:29.840 old in nineteen eighty nine when that started, and so 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:31.440 I got to spend a lot of time with Pete, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.520 and then over the course of the next decade growing 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.920 up in Charleston, got to work on renovation projects with 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:41.880 Fazio's group and Nicholas's group, and inevitably ended up landing 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.239 with what was probably Pete's greatest giver of work over 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.000 his career, a Landmark Land Company. Pete did about forty 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.160 golf courses for Landmark through the seventies and eighties, and 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.800 when I came out of grad school at University of Georgia, 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.920 I got picked up by Landmark Land Company as an 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:02.480 in house architect, very similarly the way that that Smitt 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.920 and Curly were back in the seventies and and so 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.880 I was there for about ten years doing mostly international 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:13.520 apes Hill and Barbados in Spain, Arcos gardens, and worked 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.320 in Ireland a bit and Lake Presidential and Maryland and 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.040 so so yeah, I was with Landmark through twenty fifteen, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.320 the crash hit like a lot of real estate companies, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.520 and there's no question that Landmark was a was a 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:31.320 golf centric resort residential developer. And when the crash hit No. Eight, 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.960 it took its toll on Landmark and Jerry Barton, our CEO, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:40.200 passed away in twenty eighteen, and so it was it 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.080 was kind of a closing of a chapter. 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.760 So when the crash happened, obviously everything halts. How did 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.640 you pivot, you know, in your professional life? Yeah, I 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:52.760 mean obviously everything at that to that point had been golf. 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.600 Yes, absolutely so starting out as a golf course architect 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.000 with a with a real estate development company gives you 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:00.400 a lot of opportunities to learn a lot of different 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.680 parts of the business. Because as much as we would 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.800 all as golf purists loves to believe that it's just 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.200 pure golf all the time, there's a lot that goes 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.440 into it and around it. And so what I was 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.960 able to do through two thousand and eight, nine, ten, eleven, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.280 all the way through the mid twenty teens was really 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.600 pick up the development side and understand how to build 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.200 a community and how to build the presence of a 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.240 golf course and how that golf course really grows with 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.159 the amenities that go along with it. And so I 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:35.200 got more into the development side of things, marketing, real estate, construction, 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:39.360 the whole nine yards, and so was really very fortunate 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.400 to be in that position at that time. And the 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.640 thing that's really interesting, I think for a group of 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.160 guys that came out of school in the mid two thousands, 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.359 I always say that I saw the best and the 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.679 worst that my industry will ever be in the first 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.400 five years of my career, which I think is pretty 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.440 valuable because it gives you a certain amount of perspective. 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.159 When things get a little too frothy or when things 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.760 look like they're not very good, you always look back 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.159 at those years and say it's been worse. 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.840 So, yeah, going through that kind of stuff, obviously like 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.600 you've had to develop different skills. Yeah, obviously I imagine 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.600 that you feel like you've developed just as a professional 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.039 more and it probably is going to help you the 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.080 next twenty years. The all the experience that you've gone through. 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.120 Oh sure, absolutely. I think that it really shows the 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.719 importance of market and importance of what you're trying to achieve. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.800 That you know there are courses for horses, and there 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.760 are there are sites for specific golf courses in specific projects. 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.480 And in the mid two thousands, I think the thing 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.680 that I learned the most about how hot the golf 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:42.039 market was in the early two thousands was it was 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.080 just free flowing capital and people were building golf courses 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.000 wherever they could find a spot to do it. And 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:49.920 it was one of those things where there wasn't a 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.599 lot of thought given to is this the right product 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.080 for the right market at the right time. And so 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.320 those are the first three questions I usually asked myself 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.039 before I get involved with the project. Is it the 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.200 right project for the right market at the right time. 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:04.760 Do you have any examples, maybe without naving names, w 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.159 are that where you were like, well, this isn't. 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.960 Gonna work, but we're gonna do it anyway, you. 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.240 Know, I saw it. So I saw a lot of these, 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.400 especially after two thousand and eight, because what happened was 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.640 we actually started to kind of put together a list 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:21.799 of all of these projects that were kind of in limbo. 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.760 We called it the Zombie book. It was the walking Dead. 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.600 All of these projects that had started, some of them 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.120 had been completed, all the way to opening and then 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.919 weren't able to really get over the hump because of 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.599 the recession. And some of them were just wrong timing, 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.080 some of them were just the wrong product. And I 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.120 can think of a few that were on sites that 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.279 had no business being golf courses, where they may have 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.640 spent you know, in the close to eight figure range 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.599 blowing things up and still were nowhere near having a 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.400 site for a golf course. That you just kind of 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.960 sit back and you go, man, what are we doing here? 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.359 And so I think that's there's a lesson to be 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.720 learned there, and taking the path of least resistance when 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.000 it comes to design is always a good thing, but 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:08.400 you have to look at it not just in the 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.080 lay of the land, but also in the market and 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:10.880 where it exists. 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.720 So with the obviously projects, the amount of them, sheer 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.200 amount of them a lot different. How have just the 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:20.560 projects that come across your desk that you get to 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.880 look at or you know, evaluate, how have those changed 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.680 from before the crash to after the crash? 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.280 Yeah, well, I think certainly there is there is a 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.080 much greater emphasis on history today, and you know, I 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.040 think that trying to look in there is such a 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.200 big piece of this renovation restoration world that we're seeing 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.120 so much of these days, and I think that people 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.280 are really looking back at, you know, what has been 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.240 historically successful. I think one of the biggest things that's 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.040 changed from a real estate perspective is the fact that 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:58.400 that that monolithic, big single family lot golf development is 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.400 completely archaic and as a dinosaur, and I don't think 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.240 we'll ever see it again. I might eat my words 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.200 on that, but you know, I think that now trying 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:11.360 to figure out the right way to to try to 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.960 create a market and try to create a project with 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.440 different types of real estate, and I think there's a 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.240 lot of things that probably because of the coming of 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.080 age of millennials and some of their habits and the 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:29.160 way that things are, there's not as much desire to 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:34.319 own the big mansion in the master planned golf course community. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:37.559 You know. I think that's that's something that has changed 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:39.040 significantly with the projects. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:43.000 Talk about creating a market, you mentioned that, like what, 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:48.480 you know, creating a market today versus the old model 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:56.359 of real estate play pure real estate big houses, golf course, yeah, houses. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.280 On it absolutely. You know. I think through the early 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.000 two thousands, there was definitely formula out there. You know, 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.439 you got a name architect, you got an equestrian center, 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.240 you know, you had two or three you checked a 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:11.760 few boxes, and you had a glossy picture and one 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.080 of the good magazines or in a full page spread 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.880 in one of the big national circulations, and then you 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.520 lived off of that for the first couple of years 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.720 of sales and created kind of created that monster that way. 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.480 And often we're targeting different places as second home, depending 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:29.720 on where you were in the country and and their 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:34.319 longtime habits of where people traveled. But today it is 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:39.920 much more about trying to suit the market that exists. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.959 Trying to induce a market these days, I think is 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.839 a much more difficult road to hoe. And while there 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:48.760 have been some great examples of it, and I think 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:53.480 that a lot of the very remote golf destination stuff 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.240 that's happened over the last twenty years is a great 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.280 example of how you create a market and take people 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.280 to places they've never been because of the quality of 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.920 the sites. That's the one opportunity that we're going to 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.360 continue to have is quality of remote sites to go 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.360 create a market. Otherwise, when you're talking about creating markets, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.440 you're really looking at what's there today, what's the player 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.079 looking for, what's the missing piece in any given city 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.200 or any given region that you think, hey, this has 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.839 got an opportunity to survive and succeed. I'd say that's 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.040 a good way of trying to think of think through 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.520 a project on the forty thousand foot level. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.400 I think that kind of lends well into the conversation 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.719 of what you're doing here in Charleston. Obviously a lot 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:42.079 of people have seen pictures, heard a little bit about 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.120 your work at Charleston Muni, but then you also are 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.160 working on some a few other developments. Talk about Charleston 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.800 the golf market before you started. 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.440 Working at Muni. At the Muni and you know. 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.760 What, you kind of saw where the maybe strengths are 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.560 in weaknesses and holes in the market where you're trying 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:00.640 to create a market here. 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.839 Sure, yeah, I think that Charleston and I am completely 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.760 a homer on this because as a born and raised Charlestonian, 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.960 I feel very strongly about Charleston's placing golf and I'd 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:12.920 be remiss if I didn't say that this was the 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.200 birthplace of golf in North America. Back to seventeen thirty 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:17.839 nine really prehistoric golf. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.880 Everybody, everyone seems every every funny. 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:22.480 He's got a claim. I promise you nobody can go 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:24.920 back to seventeen thirty nine. And I really consider that 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.959 prehistoric because it's pre old Tom Morris. And so when 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.840 we talk about Charleston Green and playing golf downtown Charleston 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.559 what is now Colonial Lake in the seventeen hundreds, I 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:40.640 think that's a much that I think that wins. And 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:44.080 so my yeah, But with Charleston today, you know, it's 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.920 interesting growing up around the resort at Kiowa and what 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.040 has happened out there in the influence of Pete and 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.480 the ocean course. You know, we've got this this great 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.080 destination golf course, and we have great Golden age golf 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.120 here at the country Club at Charleston and Yamons Hall. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.520 But then we have a lot of also rans. We 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.000 have a lot of golf here that never really created 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.920 a golf destination out of Charleston. People came to Charleston 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.079 to see the history, to see the city, and they 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.560 play golf while they were here. But we have a 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:17.320 lot of golf courses in the city proper that are 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.120 good enough to play while you're here, but none that 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.080 are really good enough to come play. And so my 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.240 hope is that over the course of the next five 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.080 to ten years, we'll actually elevate the Charleston market, save 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.760 Kiowa and think about Ocean Course as one of those 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:33.600 belt loop kind of places as a place to come 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.840 visit and to play golf and to really have an 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.880 experience of playing two or three golf courses and experience 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.800 some really good golf. 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:41.360 Well. And that's the thing. 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.479 I think there's a tremendous you talk about markets and 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.160 holes in markets. I always have said, is you know, 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:53.840 urban golf For a golfer that is an older golfer 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.400 that has a family or a partner that might not 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:00.000 play golf, the ability to play golf in a city, 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.200 go to cool city. I mean like Charleston, I think 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:07.559 is most well known for its restaurants, it's nightlife, it's 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.680 you know, the things you could do when you come 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.280 to Charleston. It's a great destination city. And if you 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.520 just have you know, golf that people know, hey, I 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.560 could go play here and see something pretty cool, it's 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.520 going to attract people. Because Kiwa is a great place 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.280 and it's very close to Charleston in relation to many 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:26.440 destination courses. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:27.520 But it is a hall. 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.280 To get out there, You're gonna have a long day 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.200 out there, and then by the time it's a full 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:35.400 day event, versus having something that is relatively close to 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.360 the city and able to experience and be back by, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.360 you know, not missing much of the day, you know, 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:42.040 with your family. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.480 Oh yeah, absolutely, I think that's exactly right. And so 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.160 Kyowa that's why I really say Kiwa is a separate thing, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.079 no different than Sea Island, being somewhat out from other 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.760 major metropolitan areas. And so really the idea Charleston Municipal 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.960 was being a nineteen twenty nine golf course being built 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.600 at the same time as Yamen's Hall and the country Club, 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.199 and being able to see if you squint it a 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.000 little bit, you could see some of those classic features 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.240 of a rain or design. And so it really kind 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.439 of fell to the bottom line of saying, let's really 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.320 enhance this and give it an experience that the general 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:19.640 public just doesn't have otherwise when it comes to this 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.280 style of architecture. And so it was something that I 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:25.320 felt like if we did and we did it right, 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.160 and we really enhance the features that you would see 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.240 on a rain or McDonald golf course. It would bring 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.200 people that were visiting the city to experience golf in 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.880 the city. And we're talking five minutes from downtown Charleston, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.040 and so this does really open up that opportunity. And 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.600 what that does even more so is it allows the 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.480 general public of the locals to continue to have a 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.600 municipal golf course that they can be very proud of 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.520 that they can play for a very low rate and 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.600 be subsidized by guest play at a slightly higher rate, 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.800 which is still below market for a public daily fee 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:03.200 in Charleston, and that subsidy should allow the golf course 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:04.480 to stay in the kind of shape it needs to 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.640 stay in and should allow for it to continue to 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:08.600 really get enhanced. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.960 Yeah, with your project, I think obviously so many people 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.000 go to their local muni whether you know so many 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.920 in urban areas, and they dream about the ability to 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:23.800 be able to reimagine the golf course and update it 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.760 and give it, put a little you know, TLC into it. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.160 Talk about the process of going through that and getting 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.520 it through the city. Where did it start, how did 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.080 it come about, and how did it get to where 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:39.960 it is? Today with the finished product. 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:40.280 Sure. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:40.560 Yeah. 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.080 So one of the things that it definitely takes is 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.000 is a lot of passion from the people involved, from 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.480 the people in leadership, And dating back to really twenty fifteen, 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.800 was the first conversation that I had with the mayor 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.080 who basically said, Hey, I want to do something about 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.440 Charleston Muni. And I said, okay, well, let me take 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:01.840 a look at this. And I went at that point 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.880 and started drawing conceptual plans and came back not only 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.480 with a conceptual plan but also a pro forma as 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.280 to why it made sense for the city and how 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.200 it was going to create a return for the city. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.360 And so at that point we came back and decided 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.160 to go ahead and put together a five ZHO one 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.360 C three of the friends of the Muni that would 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.040 be part of that charitable arm that would gain us 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.320 some of that fundraising arm. So the way that the 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.160 project was originally intended was to basically have two thirds 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:28.720 of the money come from the city and a third 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.320 of the money come privately raised, and we've pretty much 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.440 achieved that throughout the course of the last few years. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.440 The funding mechanism took several years because it had to 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.400 go through a bond referendum that was part of another 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:43.120 recreation bond. And then the process itself is heavily scrutinized 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.520 because it's a city project that has to go through 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.520 city capital projects, and so the process is not that 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.600 of a typical private development, and so it does take 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.520 some effort and it takes some time. But I think 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.480 if you get the right people involved, and really it's 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:00.240 about the passion. And there were so many people people 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.080 in Charleston that just loved that place. And my family 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.880 history dates back to the thirties there. My grandfather caddied there, 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.200 My father's first jobbing golf was there in the late sixties, 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.320 his first job as a professional, and so there were 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.480 so many people along the way that just said, we 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.480 care deeply about it, how can we help, how can 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.199 we make this happen. Then it wasn't just monetarily, but 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.720 it was also some political pressure that really got the 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:24.720 project going. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.760 With regards to the pro forma creating, you know, showing 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.639 the value, because this I think this is where so 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.239 many people like, how did you go about presenting the 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:38.199 case that hey, if we do this, you know this 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.119 is going to go from something that loses money for 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.760 the city to something that's going to be something that 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.520 brings in revenue for the city. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.160 Yeah, And the biggest thing there is really looking at 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.639 what is the market rate for a non resident to 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.360 come play golf, and at the top top end of that, 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.560 when it comes to municipal golf courses, you've got place 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.440 like Tory Pines and Bethpage Black And while we're never 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.200 trying to achieve those LIFs level, what it showed us was, hey, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.960 we've got market rate to come play golf as a 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.639 as a visitor to Charleston. We've got a lot of 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.159 room for growth there. And so that was really the 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.560 biggest change in the revenue line of being able to say, hey, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.639 we can go achieve ten thousand rounds. We do sixty 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:19.600 thousand rounds a year on MUNI and so if ten 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.200 thousand of those were out of town play at a 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.760 slightly higher rate, all of a sudden, that's going to 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.280 subsidize this thing, allow us to spend the money we 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.480 need to from a maintenance perspective to keep it up 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.399 and not create any kind of problems in terms of 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.560 accessibility for all of the local residents. 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.280 And I think this is where this project's a little 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.960 bit different than a lot of product. You see munis 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.040 go down this road where they put money into their 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.080 golf course, but oftentimes it's money where they're putting a 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.800 lot of money in, but they aren't getting a drastically 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.639 different product from what they had. How did you play 0:18:55.880 --> 0:19:00.280 the architecture into this? And I imagine, you know, just 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.800 thinking common sensely that had a lot to do to say, 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.360 this is how we attract money. Yes, you know, how 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.360 we attract out of town money is with this right. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.400 Yes, absolutely, I think that the whole idea, and we've 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.800 taught a lot. Charleston is a very historic town and 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.560 we've got a role to play in the history of 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.520 the history of America and the history of golf and 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.960 the history of the Golden Age and Rayner McDonald's style architecture. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.920 What Rainer did in this town, you know, is such 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.560 a great, great example of his work and exactly how 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:31.879 and it's why it fits so well in the low country, 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.200 the ability to really enhance the features of the golf 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.440 course on relatively flat property. And so the idea when 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.359 it was pitched was really about listen, we're a historic town, 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.440 We're a sophisticated town. We deserve a historic, sophisticated golf 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.200 course to call our own. And so when we really 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.119 dug down into it and started talking about the history 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.600 of Rayner and the experience in the low Country, it 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.080 was an easy pitch to get people behind the idea 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.760 of bringing these template holes to the table, really trying 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.760 to create that experience for the public daily fee player. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.240 Yeah, and I think obviously they're getting a drastically different 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:13.000 experience than what they had. Talk about how much of 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.280 the how much new stuff is out there, what are 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:22.040 the biggest, let's say, defining characteristics of beauty today versus 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:22.960 what was Yeah. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.439 Sure, So the greens themselves were all completely rebuilt and 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:31.480 are roughly about fifty percent bigger, fifty to sixty percent 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.440