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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Neighbors in fear a beloved

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Speaker 1: couple found the hubby beheaded in the garage. Yes, you

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Speaker 1: heard me, the husband found decapitated in the garage. The

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Speaker 1: wife nobody could find for the longest time, and then

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Speaker 1: she was found by fishermen in the lake, tied to

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Speaker 1: a cement chunk. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in

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Speaker 2: a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple

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Speaker 2: is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,

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Speaker 2: but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,

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Speaker 2: the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at

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Speaker 2: the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front

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Speaker 2: door unlocked. Calling out their names, Nobody replies with.

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Speaker 1: Me in allstar pound to make since we says of

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Speaker 1: what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and

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Speaker 1: I want to go first to a special guest joining

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Speaker 1: us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us. Isn't it

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Speaker 1: odd that the smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right,

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Speaker 1: the flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the

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Speaker 1: door was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then

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Speaker 1: the neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.

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Speaker 3: A lot of suspects, but a lot of people here

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Speaker 3: in this community still do a lot of the doors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I'm very familiar with Putnham County.

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Speaker 1: I was a camp counselor there at a national forest,

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Speaker 1: the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.

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Speaker 1: And this home was on the beautiful Lake Otony. Those

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Speaker 1: are beautiful homes right there on the lake right, this.

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Speaker 3: Very well, this was part of Rentolds at Lake o'cony,

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Speaker 3: so very exclusive neighborhood of very expensive homes.

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death

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Speaker 1: investigator and host of a hit series Body Bags of

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I have been

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Speaker 1: to the scene and a very very extensively walked the area.

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Speaker 1: Not only is the dense forest an issue, but the

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Speaker 1: fact that this is such a high end property a

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Speaker 1: gated community where crime is very, very low. That's the

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Speaker 1: first oddity.

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Speaker 4: In this, you know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this

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Speaker 4: being rentals rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere

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Speaker 4: around South approximate in this area, we're very familiar with

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Speaker 4: this location. You're talking about very high end living, and

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Speaker 4: you have an expectation of safety in these particular parts

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Speaker 4: where you know something this horrible and this is at

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Speaker 4: the top of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases

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Speaker 4: go that we've been covering Loath these many years, you

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Speaker 4: don't expect something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather,

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Speaker 4: I don't know how to say it other than just

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Speaker 4: kind of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful

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Speaker 4: lake Ocone, And you begin to think about points of access.

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Speaker 4: How in the world would somebody be brave enough to

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Speaker 4: go into this location and how did they access this

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Speaker 4: home in this gated community, And it smacks a level

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Speaker 4: of familiarity with the area. To me, It always has,

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Speaker 4: at least, I mean, yeah, hold.

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Speaker 1: On right there, Joe Scott. Everything you're saying is absolutely correct,

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Speaker 1: but I want to hone in on it before I

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Speaker 1: miss a point. You know, I feel like an English teacher,

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Speaker 1: you know how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because

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Speaker 4: I still have to figure that out.

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Speaker 1: But you just gave me so much information and everybody

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Speaker 1: on the panel, do I have to remind you we're

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Speaker 1: not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if

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Speaker 1: you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been

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Speaker 1: working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to

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Speaker 1: fly over to Oregon and I want you to find

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Speaker 1: Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,

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Speaker 1: I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,

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Speaker 1: We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So

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Speaker 1: where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going

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Speaker 1: to get in unless I climb over a fence? And

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Speaker 1: do I have access to get in? And then you

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Speaker 1: go back through all these windy roads. How are you

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Speaker 1: going to find the place? How are you going to

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Speaker 1: find the victims? How are you going to dispose of

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Speaker 1: the wife with nobody seeing or hearing a thing? And

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Speaker 1: I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: as you know. So when you refer to quote high

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Speaker 1: end living, what exactly do you mean by that?

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Speaker 3: Let me just say this. We've got a link that

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Speaker 3: spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by

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Speaker 3: water is infinitesible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about

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Speaker 3: where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,

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Speaker 3: you can go on the website of the Puttnam County

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Speaker 3: Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly We won't click.

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Speaker 1: But that would. And you're right, you're totally right about

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Speaker 1: all of what you just said, Sheriff. But that takes

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Speaker 1: me to someone with a boat, Okay, that means money.

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Speaker 1: Somebody with a boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my

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Speaker 1: suspect pool. Somebody that would take a boat to their home, docket,

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Speaker 1: commit the murders, and then take the wife's body tied

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Speaker 1: to a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who

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Speaker 1: would approach this by boat. And as far as the

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Speaker 1: tax assessment, you're right again share sales, But that tells

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Speaker 1: me a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with

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Speaker 1: the computer, somebody would think, hey, if I go to

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Speaker 1: the tax assessor's website, I can find this guy that's

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Speaker 1: very targeted. So Scott, when you refer to high end living,

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Speaker 1: what's that.

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Speaker 4: Well, you think you have access to all of these

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Speaker 4: amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high

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Speaker 4: end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rental plantation, this

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Speaker 4: is not something just somebody off the street can walk

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Speaker 4: in and afford to do. And that tells you a

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Speaker 4: lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life

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Speaker 4: that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure

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Speaker 4: location where they could live out their golden years in

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Speaker 4: this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one

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Speaker 4: more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's

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Speaker 4: key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had

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Speaker 4: access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,

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Speaker 4: we have to think about, well, how familiar are they

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Speaker 4: with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat

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Speaker 4: to get into this location and you begin to think

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Speaker 4: about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your

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Speaker 4: way through this environment, and the placement of the remains

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Speaker 4: is certainly key here as well.

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Speaker 1: So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining

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Speaker 1: me Crime online dot com investigat every porter, the cheapest

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Speaker 1: house you can get and when you your Joe Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan referring to high end living his words, not mine.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get my head wrapped around that because

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Speaker 1: we thought we were living high end when we finally

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Speaker 1: got a washer and a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer.

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Speaker 1: That was the big time for us, and we would

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Speaker 1: all just go look at it. We were not allowed

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Speaker 1: to touch it, of course, until we want to kind

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Speaker 1: of use it. But that said, did you know, Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt that the cheapest place, the cheapest house you can

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Speaker 1: get at this RENTLDS plantation on this lake is in

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Speaker 1: the over five hundred thousand dollars approaching six hundred thousand.

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Speaker 1: That's the cheapest.

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing, beautiful place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I

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Speaker 1: have discussed many many times off camera, I don't care

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Speaker 1: if the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they

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Speaker 1: got a PhD or they dropped out in third grade,

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Speaker 1: don't care. My point is the level of crime in

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Speaker 1: this gated community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the

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Speaker 1: lake front is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered,

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Speaker 1: much less beheaded in this area. That's where I'm headed,

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt.

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Speaker 2: Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,

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Speaker 2: nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in

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Speaker 2: this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the limit of the level of crime here is very,

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Speaker 2: very low. But again, remember here we have two people

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Speaker 2: dead in the most heinous way you can imagine, and

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Speaker 2: yet there wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery

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Speaker 2: going on and they surprised the burglars and it blew up.

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Speaker 2: There was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside

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Speaker 2: the house that they were killed inside the house.

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Speaker 1: Who would be had the dad and tie this grandma

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Speaker 1: to a cement chunk and throw her to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the lake. Who this is not your ordinary barbral

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor forensics. So we're looking at an

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Speaker 1: entirely different suspect pool.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has

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Speaker 4: that has a certain level of planning. You know, this

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Speaker 4: is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one

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Speaker 4: person says something it makes somebody angry and they just

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Speaker 4: fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,

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Speaker 4: so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes

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Speaker 4: tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout

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Speaker 4: this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,

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Speaker 4: access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could

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Speaker 4: you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware

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Speaker 4: of where to deposit a body and to do it

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Speaker 4: in a stealthy manner?

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What

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Speaker 1: can we learn?

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Speaker 2: Listen, The same neighbor decides to look in the garage

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Speaker 2: to see if the Drmoan's car is there. It's there.

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Speaker 2: In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on

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Speaker 2: the garage floor, decapitated.

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Speaker 1: So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To

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Speaker 1: doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic

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Speaker 1: psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's

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Speaker 1: no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would go

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Speaker 1: to the effort. I'm not just killing this beloved couple,

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Speaker 1: not just killing them, but decapitating the father and tying

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Speaker 1: the mom to a cement chunk and throwing her in

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Speaker 1: the water. Why.

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Speaker 5: I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The

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Speaker 5: Dermoins offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know

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Speaker 5: what they did, or they might not even know who

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Speaker 5: this perpetrator actually was. But this person felt offended by

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Speaker 5: what was going on. And I think he was offended.

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Speaker 5: I say he because more likely he is the offender,

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Speaker 5: is that he But I think he was offended by

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Speaker 5: mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably

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Speaker 5: targeted because of whatever it was that that.

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Speaker 4: He was doing.

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Speaker 5: I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot

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Speaker 5: to watch what the offender was going to do to

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Speaker 5: missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort

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Speaker 5: of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of

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Speaker 5: anger that is associated with this that I'm not even

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Speaker 5: sure this family even knew existed or even knew that

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Speaker 5: this person existed before it all happened.

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Speaker 1: Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff

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Speaker 1: they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Delatre,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that he's wrong. I said, let's

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Speaker 1: follow it through to its logical conclusion. Someone angry with

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Speaker 1: mister dermotd angry about what, angry about what he was doing?

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Speaker 1: What was he doing?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his

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Speaker 3: assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was

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Speaker 3: quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull

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Speaker 3: with something like a hammer. I don't know if it

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Speaker 3: was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.

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Speaker 3: And there's some evidence that we have that I don't

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Speaker 3: want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was

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Speaker 3: present when that occurred. We do not believe she was

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Speaker 3: killed at the house, and we believe he was shot

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Speaker 3: only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.

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Speaker 3: So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed

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Speaker 3: toward them. We've never thought otherwise, and it's but through

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Speaker 3: you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of

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Speaker 3: technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But

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Speaker 3: we just simply have not been able to find that

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Speaker 3: individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.

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Speaker 2: Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars

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Speaker 2: in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and

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Speaker 2: a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top

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Speaker 2: of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.

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Speaker 2: Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's

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Speaker 2: a faint red trail smeared from the door all the

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Speaker 2: way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably

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Speaker 2: to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His

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Speaker 2: hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on

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Speaker 2: the left index. Finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairtangle within

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Speaker 2: Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and

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Speaker 2: their attacker.

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Speaker 1: Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, do you hear all that that's a

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Speaker 1: lot of forensic evidence to wade through it?

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Speaker 4: Certainly is, and you begin to think about the dynamics

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Speaker 4: of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on Missus Dermot,

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Speaker 4: which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint when you

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Speaker 4: talk about what type of weapon this individual showed up

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Speaker 4: with or perhaps access from the home in order to

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Speaker 4: commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,

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Speaker 4: very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have

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Speaker 4: this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.

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Speaker 4: It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity

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Speaker 4: of these two individuals is there as the attack is

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Speaker 4: going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what

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Speaker 4: would be what would be the end game here relative

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Speaker 4: to one of these individuals who have been married for

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Speaker 4: years and years and years Nancy for the perp to

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Speaker 4: have terrorized them in front of one another. And so

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Speaker 4: that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual

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Speaker 4: that is that they're looking for the perp has against

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Speaker 4: these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the fact that Russell had

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Speaker 1: his wife's hair intertwined in his fingers.

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Speaker 4: I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is

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Speaker 4: this something that had occurred as a result of hair

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Speaker 4: being pulled from her head by him? You have to

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Speaker 4: consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,

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Speaker 4: if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes, you know,

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Speaker 4: we slough hair, and many times if you have this

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Speaker 4: tackiness on the surface of the of the hand and

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Speaker 4: you're in proximity to loose hair, that can transfer onto

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Speaker 4: the hand. So I'd have to know about the placement

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Speaker 4: of the hair. I'd like to know what his fingernails

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Speaker 4: look like if they and I'm sure that they probably did.

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Speaker 4: The State Medical Examiner's office did nail trimmings and scrapings

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Speaker 4: on both of these. Well, probably not dermin, that wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have offered much information, but certainly mister Dermot because he

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Speaker 4: was found in a dry environment.

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott

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Speaker 1: Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.

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Speaker 1: Looking at these two in their youth so in love,

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Speaker 1: remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair

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Speaker 1: of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,

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Speaker 1: how did that happen? Same thing here, we've got to

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Speaker 1: find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was

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Speaker 1: it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his

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Speaker 1: wedding band? Was it stuck in blood that had dried?

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Speaker 1: Did it come from her head? In other words, was

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Speaker 1: the root attached, the nucleus still attached to the hair.

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Speaker 1: Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the

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Speaker 1: floor and he got a hair on his hands. We

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Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.

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Speaker 1: Would you agree, yes.

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Speaker 4: I would the dynamic that you're thinking about relative to

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Speaker 4: two bodies, after when you have a multiple homicide, for instance,

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Speaker 4: what's the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And

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Speaker 4: let's just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where

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Speaker 4: you have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of

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Speaker 4: one another at least for a period of time. Any

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Speaker 4: number of things can transfer from one body to the other.

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Speaker 4: And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this

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Speaker 4: and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,

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Speaker 4: you know, those points of contact along the way, both

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Speaker 4: inside the house, in the garage and this mysterious vessel

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Speaker 4: that we might be talking about as well as here,

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Speaker 4: because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've

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Speaker 4: got a floating crime. I'm seen as well, you really do.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.

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Speaker 1: What about the hair? I've heard the description that it

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Speaker 1: was intertwined in his fingers. Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: We believe, and I believe what happened is mister Durman

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Speaker 3: reached out to block the blow against his wife's head

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Speaker 3: when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and

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Speaker 3: also it was a compound fracture and the finger and

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Speaker 3: that's where the hair was. So I think that he

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Speaker 3: was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife

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Speaker 3: and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is to me.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an

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Speaker 1: esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief de

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Speaker 1: development Officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at

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Speaker 1: DNA solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I

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Speaker 1: say she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,

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Speaker 1: an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Medlman, thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. This has got to be

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Speaker 1: a scientist like you, a dream, a cornucopia of DNA evidence.

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Speaker 6: Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so

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Speaker 6: much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to

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Speaker 6: the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and

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Speaker 6: overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there

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Speaker 6: is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's

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Speaker 6: part of what makes this crime scene where you have

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Speaker 6: to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test

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Speaker 6: to try to figure out who might have committed this

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Speaker 6: crime and if it was only one person that committed

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Speaker 6: this crime or multiple.

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Speaker 2: Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot

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Speaker 2: without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,

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Speaker 2: was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.

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Speaker 2: Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere in his

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Speaker 2: body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to

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Speaker 2: be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping

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Speaker 2: out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to

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Speaker 2: be as much blood in the towels as would be

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Speaker 2: expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his

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Speaker 2: body is found?

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Speaker 1: Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills i' ed to Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,

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Speaker 1: where were they killed and what was the purpose of

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Speaker 1: bringing them back to their own home?

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Speaker 3: Well that's the million dollar and that if I probably

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Speaker 3: knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back back

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Speaker 3: here today. But we don't believe obviously that she was

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Speaker 3: killed there, and while on earth they would have brought

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Speaker 3: his body back. I do not know. He was certainly

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Speaker 3: deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this was

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Speaker 3: more of a preventive for decop flu and things like

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Speaker 3: that leaking out from under the garage and door. I

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Speaker 3: think that actual blood.

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining us, explain how a medical examiner can

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Speaker 1: determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or

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Speaker 1: if that was the cause of the cause of death

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Speaker 1: or decapitated post mortem, it was a.

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Speaker 4: Post mortem decapitation or any severance of any appendance of

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Speaker 4: the body. If it's in the post mortem state, you're

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Speaker 4: not going to have what we refer to as this

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Speaker 4: little focal, which means very specific areas of hemorrhage into

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Speaker 4: the soft tissue. And what that means is that as

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Speaker 4: the body is being traumatized in life, the blood will

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Speaker 4: actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where the trauma

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Speaker 4: has occurred. When we're doing an examination of a body

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Speaker 4: and we see, for instance, something as horrific as this,

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Speaker 4: we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,

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Speaker 4: what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of

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Speaker 4: circumferentially around the area where this has taken place. You're

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Speaker 4: going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent

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Speaker 4: that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time

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Speaker 4: that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.

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Speaker 1: And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he

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Speaker 1: was killed. The theory is that there were at least

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Speaker 1: two perpetrators.

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Speaker 2: Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence

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Speaker 2: points to at least two people being involved in the

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Speaker 2: murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he

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Speaker 2: believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet

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Speaker 2: unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have

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Speaker 2: been personal, not something that happened during the commission of

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Speaker 2: another crime such as a burglary, as nothing appears to

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Speaker 2: have been stolen.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff, why are you convinced or at least two perpetrators

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Speaker 1: that murder these two?

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Speaker 3: Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two

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Speaker 3: bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by

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Speaker 3: boat five miles down the lake. And I just find

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Speaker 3: it almost impossible that one person could have picked up

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Speaker 3: bodies and things like that and moved them around from

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Speaker 3: one location to another much less six miles down the

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Speaker 3: lake than tied the bag with the box and and

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Speaker 3: all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.

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Speaker 3: It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us development officer at off Ram

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Speaker 1: Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really

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Speaker 1: working miracles. Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on

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Speaker 1: how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.

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Speaker 1: What would you tell them?

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Speaker 6: I would definitely look at everything that was just like

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Speaker 6: Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the

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Speaker 6: body that may not have been overcome by all the

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Speaker 6: blood and all of the other fluids that were at

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Speaker 6: the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated that was

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Speaker 6: found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA

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Speaker 6: that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch

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Speaker 6: DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or

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Speaker 6: the robe or anything that was around that victim to

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Speaker 6: stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try

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Speaker 6: to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of

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Speaker 6: the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like

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Speaker 6: skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have

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Speaker 6: touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,

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Speaker 6: the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her

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Speaker 6: fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom

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Speaker 6: of a lake. I still think that DNA could be

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Speaker 6: pulled from something like that. We have identified people that

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Speaker 6: have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the

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Speaker 6: bottom of a lake for decades bottom of sewage tanks,

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Speaker 6: so we have figured out ways to overcome water and

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00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 6: degradation that comes, contamination that comes with being in water

434
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 6: for a very long time. So I would still look

435
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 6: at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was

436
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 6: discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by

437
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 6: the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body

438
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 6: that could be found that would be more perpetrator.

439
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: That would be my suggestion.

440
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: There is no evidence to suggest either of the Dermoms

441
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence

442
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff

443
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle

444
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: out of US eighty day that's left on the kitchen table.

445
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot was found

446
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 2: laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his boxers and

447
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is found in

448
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.

449
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,

450
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: that tells you about what time of the day do

451
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: you think these two were murdered?

452
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: Well, again, we don't really know because of talking to

453
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would

454
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 3: get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything

455
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 3: to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,

456
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was

457
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do

458
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: know that a man was seen or somebody was seen

459
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 3: in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,

460
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 3: so we actually think, because of all of that together

461
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 3: that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.

462
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still

463
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was

464
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,

465
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology. Doctor

466
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: Delatory number one, I need to know the date of

467
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: the USA today crossroord puzzle. And it's just striking me

468
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: that this was in the morning, which makes this even

469
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: more of an aberration, an oddity.

470
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that

471
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 5: anything is going on in their daily lives that made

472
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 5: them afraid of whatever it is that's going on. Even

473
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 5: if there was an individual in their yard. It certainly

474
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 5: doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,

475
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 5: So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,

476
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 5: the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind

477
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 5: of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen,

478
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: so they weren't prepared. This is not so much a

479
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 5: blitz attack, because there's nothing to suggest in the home

480
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 5: that you know, all of a sudden there was some

481
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 5: kind of fight, But there is something in which they

482
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 5: were unprepared and they just kind of it was just unexpected,

483
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 5: and instead of using force, the individual probably use some

484
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 5: kind of coercive technique, whether it was a gun or

485
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 5: a weapon or something like that. But there was more coercion,

486
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 5: more verbal threats more than there was physical threats.

487
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: Just Scott Morgan joining US Professor forensics. It's not all

488
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.

489
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.

490
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?

491
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 1: Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table?

492
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker,

493
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes

494
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.

495
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky

496
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to

497
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: the end. They were dead by that time. What else

498
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: would you look for? Joe Scott well.

499
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 4: Sheriff Sales has done the right thing by going to

500
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: speak with the family, something we do in investigations to

501
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 4: just try to get a take a temperature of what

502
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: their daily routine looks like. And you have to try

503
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: to understand that and are there any moments in tom

504
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 4: that deviate from that norm those normal behaviors moving forward?

505
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 4: I think that also one of the things. And if

506
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: we believe that there may have been more than one

507
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 4: individual involved in this, I think that it would be

508
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 4: very important to try to examine any kind of available

509
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 4: digital evidence that might be available from back during that

510
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 4: time period, as far as phone records, anything that came

511
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: off of any of the towers back then. I don't

512
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 4: know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly something that's intriguing.

513
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: If you've got one person in the yard, perhaps are

514
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: they communicating with someone else that could facilitate bringing a

515
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 4: boat around, because that's that's the rub, isn't it. You know,

516
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: how do you get a boat into a location where

517
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 4: you're running the risk in broad daylight of people being

518
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 4: seen at their dock or their mooring location there? How

519
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 4: does this work? So there has to be communication involved

520
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: in this. I think that's that's certainly something to look at.

521
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: And of course you know the age on question dot

522
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: miss on dilatory. You really think too or more people

523
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: could keep this quiet. No way they had to tell

524
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, a wife, a co conspirator. There was a

525
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: reason for this murder. Somebody has to know why, and

526
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: that leads you to who.

527
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 5: Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by

528
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 5: whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he

529
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 5: was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,

530
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 5: this could have been this could have been anybody.

531
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that

532
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do

533
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he

534
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account

535
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: or his saving his account. I mean, we did that

536
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: cause someone to go into a fury, But would they

537
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: go through the effort of driving up in a boat

538
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: and decapitating him over a pin number.

539
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 4: No, No, absolutely not.

540
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 5: This is why I'm saying that this is about something

541
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 5: that was going on within the individual that was specifically

542
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 5: targeting Russell Dermott or else none of this other stuff

543
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 5: would need to have happened. I mean that these two

544
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 5: individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're dumped

545
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 5: in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful. This

546
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 5: was planned from the beginning that this was how things

547
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 5: were going to play out, and everything is probably geared

548
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target of

549
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 5: whatever this thing was, given the nature of how his

550
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 5: wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily wasn't.

551
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 1: In the last days a break in the case.

552
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,719
Speaker 2: Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved

553
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: couple in a gated community on Lake of Cocony goes

554
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces

555
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell

556
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.

557
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to

558
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says

559
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: he believes the DNA is from the person who committed

560
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: the murder, or at least somebody who is a party

561
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: to the crime.

562
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double homicide of Russell

563
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: and Shirley Dermott rocks their gaety community.

564
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,

565
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: Russell Durman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the

566
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: garage where his body was found. The shriff says the

567
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that

568
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: was not found in the Drman's.

569
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred

570
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: there in the home as well. Where were they killed?

571
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to

572
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.

573
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to

574
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: the sheriff. Sheriff Howard sells where did you discover where

575
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: was the new DNA?

576
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: We initially took all of our physical evidence out to

577
00:34:53,719 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 3: authoram Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Some further

578
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: work that needed to be done, and they have referred

579
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 3: me to Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they

580
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 3: have found DNA that they are still working on trying

581
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: to isolate that we at least know both Author and

582
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 3: Sarnson found DNA that does not belong to Shirley or

583
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 3: Russell Derman and Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there,

584
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: trying to narrow that down en up where we can

585
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 3: get it into codis. So I reached out to them. Initially,

586
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 3: the State Lab said there was no DNA. I'm not

587
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: being critical of them. I don't know the technology at

588
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: the time, other than the Dermots themselves. But after learning

589
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 3: of the good work of Authorm and sarren Son and

590
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 3: consulting with the FBI, that's where I decide to take stuff.

591
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: So we're optimistic that that's going to eventually turn up

592
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 3: something here, hopefully pretty soon.

593
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,

594
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: tell me about the discovery of the new well, it's

595
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: not really new DNA, it's newly discovered DNA. Where was

596
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: it and how did you find it?

597
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 6: It was on the clothing, and I guess how we

598
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 6: found it is the sheriff sent the evidence here to

599
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 6: see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could

600
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 6: be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected

601
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 6: at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy

602
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 6: for this type of technology, and that means that any

603
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 6: DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS

604
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 6: first and see if there is a hit and codis

605
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 6: or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt

606
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 6: and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.

607
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 6: If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can

608
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 6: be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.

609
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 6: If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a

610
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 6: profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers

611
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 6: rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented

612
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 6: for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity

613
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 6: of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic

614
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 6: lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get

615
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 6: them uploaded. That is what's happening now. And if there

616
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 6: is a hit, that case can be solved that way.

617
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 6: If there is no hit, then we can take over

618
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 6: the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles

619
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 6: that will help us infer the identity of the person

620
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 6: that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say

621
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 6: it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left

622
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 6: DNA on their body at the crime scene during that

623
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 6: time period.

624
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,

625
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,720
Speaker 1: question Dodger, Crystal middleman joining us, Dodger Middleman, when I say,

626
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 1: how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?

627
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: What do you put it under a microscope? Do you

628
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: treat it in some way? How do you see what

629
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,240
Speaker 1: other scientists could not see?

630
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 6: Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,

631
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 6: but maybe we took a section of that clothing that

632
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,720
Speaker 6: was different and sections that had been tested in the past.

633
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 6: How forensic testing works is you section different areas of

634
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 6: a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at

635
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 6: the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all

636
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 6: of those cuttings. And sometimes you're lucky and you actually

637
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 6: find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of

638
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 6: the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding

639
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 6: to in this case.

640
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you

641
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists

642
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the

643
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: key to not just a double murder, but the double

644
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at

645
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 1: missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a

646
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.

647
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 1: These perps have got to be found and your work

648
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: may make that happen. If you know, or you even

649
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,

650
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: please call seven zero six four eight five eight five

651
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 1: five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five

652
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: five seven. Now we've got up that there is a

653
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a

654
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:58,720
Speaker 1: commitment for Metropolitan Life insurance for thirty grand Let's hope

655
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars

656
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to

657
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and

658
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just

659
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line

660
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William

661
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.

662
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our

663
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman

664
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,

665
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: still on the case there in Putnam County. Nancy Grace

666
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend.