WEBVTT - Clay Travis dives deep with Jason Whitlock 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis, play talks 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:09.840 with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business. 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:19.799 Now here's Clay Travis. Welcome into my new long form 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:25.000 interview podcast called Wins and Losses. I am utterly intrigued 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:27.680 by the degree to which a lot of times in 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:31.040 this country today we focus only on the end product, 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.839 how did somebody end up being successful? We only focus 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.199 on the success. We don't focus on the journey. Uh. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:41.280 To steal a line from Nick Saban, the process is 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.400 often more important than the result. And I don't feel 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.440 like we spend much time on the process, on the 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.120 journey between wins and losses, and also on how frequently 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.880 wins are also accompanied by losses. Very often we only 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.000 end with the result. And I feel like in a 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.760 social media age where we've got Instagram and we've got 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:03.200 cure rated Twitter feeds and Facebook feeds, where people only 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.720 show the good things in life, I feel like the 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.240 struggles in life are oftentimes and much more entertaining and 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.000 much more illuminating and trying to give us a sense 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.520 of how we ended up where we did. And So 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:18.119 today's guest, A guy's a good friend of mine and uh, 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.360 I am utterly fascinated to hear his full story here 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.080 Jason Whitlock. You can find him on Twitter at whitlock 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.920 Jason Jason. I feel like we start these episodes with 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:30.880 people who maybe a lot of people know who you are, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.240 maybe they don't. I feel like a huge percentage will. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.360 But for those who are listening to this right now 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.480 and don't have any idea, what do you do now? Uh? 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.000 And what's your day to day existence? As part of 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:45.000 that job? What I do now is I host a 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.280 television show on Fox Sports one called Speak for Yourself. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.600 It's a ninety minutes show airs every day and live 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.240 at noon Pacific three Eastern. I do it in conjunction 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.320 with Marcelis Wiley. Uh. You know, we try to have 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:08.000 the most authentic, most non PC conversation that you can 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.160 have in sports. We try to keep our viewers ahead 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:15.440 of the conversation with big ideas and the analysis of 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:18.160 sports in the sports world that you won't get any 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:24.960 place else. Uh. And so you know, my day UH 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.000 typically starts around four am. That's what I wake up 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.880 and start preparing for the show. We have a conference 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.240 call at six am where we started laying out the 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.200 ideas for the show. Between six and nine, I started 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.200 writing my scripts or the monologues I do on the show. 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.200 Try to get to work about nine am, meet with 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.560 you know, the producers on on the team, and then 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.040 we do the show at noon and it's over at 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.680 one thirty, and just start my day all over again. 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.000 All right. I'm gonna circle back around to this because 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.400 I do find the production of television and all the 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.120 work that goes into it fascinating myself, and I think 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.840 a lot of our listeners will as well. So eventually 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.280 we will get back to how you ended up doing 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.880 what you do. But before that, I want to go 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:15.600 back in time. So where were you born. I was 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:21.800 born in Indianapolis, Indiana. Uh. Just a good old Midwest kid. Uh. 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.320 And brothers and sisters. What kind of you know when 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.960 you were a kid, what kind of lifestyle did you 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:31.720 would you say you had started out? You know, my 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.520 parents and me and my brother My parents got divorced. 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:37.640 I'm the baby of the family. My brothers three years 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.720 older than me. Parents got divorced when I was about 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:49.200 five or six years old, and my dad remarried and I, uh, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.360 you know, me and my brother stayed with my mom, 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:56.720 but I became close to my dad's second family. And 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.640 I have a step sister who I'm very very close to. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.480 Don't consider a step sister, just a sister, Yealanda. And 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.920 I also have a stepbrother from that relationship, not as 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:09.440 close to him, but you know, a lot of affinity, 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.480 but just not as close to him. But so, you know, 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.760 I basically consider you know, me, my brother, my sister. Uh. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.400 My dad has since passed away, my mom still alive. 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:27.240 But U you know, when my parents got divorced, you know, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.279 me and my mom and my brother lived in you know, 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.680 in a little bit small apartment in the hood. Uh. 0:04:34.720 --> 0:04:39.119 My mother eventually took a second job and and moved 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:42.360 us into a working class neighborhood. And that's why I 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.400 mostly grew up until my mother moved. Her job got 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.600 transferred to Kansas City, and she moved to Kansas City, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.120 and my senior high school, I moved in with my dad. Alright, 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.440 So when you were a kid growing up, what kind 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:07.440 of student were you in school? Uh? Underachieving one. Yeah, 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.200 I was more of a social animal. I was more 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:16.400 of the class clown, popular guy uh that you know, 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:22.760 flirted with a B minus average C plus average in school. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:26.760 I just it's one of my regrets in life, not 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:29.880 taking school as seriously as I should have. What did 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.400 your mom and do You said your mom moved. What 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:33.360 did your mom and dad do for a living when 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.919 you were growing up? My mother was a factory worker 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.599 for Western Electric that they made phones. Uh. You know, 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.080 she was high school educated for a factory worker. My 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:50.560 dad did not finish high school. Uh. Joined the military, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:55.039 got drafted into the army. Uh. Did that for two years, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:06:01.160 then came home, started working for the Chrysler UH automotive company, 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.120 and eventually stopped working there and started his own business, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.560 a small bar business in the Inner City. Uh. And 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:15.560 so my dad was a small business person throughout most 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:20.839 of my life and relatively successful. Ran into some problems 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.120 with the I R s that you know when when 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:28.320 So when I moved in with him my senior high school, Uh, 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.320 he was on his ass. The I R S had 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.760 taken his business and everything from him. Uh. And so 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.560 that was not the best time. But he eventually got 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.400 another bar later in life, and you know, the last 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.719 five years of his life. You know, it was a 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:47.279 successful small businessman in the Inner city, you said inner city. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:49.800 So how much interaction, if at all, did you have 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:53.640 with people of other races. Was your upbringing almost exclusively 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.120 surrounded in a black neighborhood, black schools or were you 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:00.520 schools in Indianapolis? What was your situa ation like as 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.359 a kid, you know, as a small kid, Yeah, it 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.240 was all black. When my mother moved us out to 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:13.560 a working class suburb, the school was predominantly white. And 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:19.440 then in eighth grade, uh, black kids from basically my 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.520 old neighborhood got bust out to my high school. And 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.480 so I would say by the time, you know, in 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:31.040 eighth grade, I think we were probably around thirty black 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.320 my my junior high in high school. When did you 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:40.920 start playing sports? Oh? I think fourth grade? Fourth grade? 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.040 I started playing football organized football. I mean I played 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.760 sports my entire life, so as I could hold a basketball, baseball, 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.480 or football, but I didn't play or I played organized 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.000 football in fourth grade and immediately started playing with the 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:58.160 fifth and sixth graders. I played a league up because 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.240 I was I was honestly, I was just too big 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.720 and too good for kids my eye, so automatically, almost 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.840 when you started playing football, you were good at it. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.480 I mean relative to other kids your age. Yeah, I 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.000 in in fourth grade, I was probably as good as 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:19.680 any fourth grader could possibly be. I think I peaked 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.120 as an athlete, to be honest with you, in eighth grade, 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:26.600 you are dominating grader. Yeah, five star. I was as 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.800 good as anybody. And then it was just all downhill 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.800 from there and ended up just you know, being a 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.520 mid major college football player. Why do you think you 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.400 went downhill that you've gotten fully? Like, are you the 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.880 eighth grader with the mustache? Like you were dominant because 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.560 you didn't have a mustache. But you know, I was 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:47.200 six ft two hundred and two hundred thirty pounds in 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.520 eighth grade, ran on the four by one hundred relay team, 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.320 played middle linebacker and some running back, and just played everywhere. Uh, 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.520 and then I just never got any taller. And uh, 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:07.840 I just I and not back then, and you know 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.760 yet I'm fifty two. Back then, I didn't I didn't 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:16.200 realize all the extra things you had to do, particularly 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.240 if you weren't going to be six ft four six 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.800 ft three. I didn't realize all that. And I worked 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:23.880 very hard. I was a captain of my high school team. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.439 But I didn't work nearly hard enough, it wasn't nearly 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:31.120 discible enough, and so eventually I think more than my 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.560 biggest grads, Like, damn, if I had corrected my diet 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.640 when I was younger, I could have maxed out as 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.320 an athlete. So did you expect then your eighth grade, 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.120 your dominant Did you think, oh, I'm gonna play in 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.360 the NFL, like there's no doubt in your mind? Were 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.320 you thinking that at the time. I wouldn't say there 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.400 was no doubt in my mind, but I definitely thought 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.600 I was an NFL player. And I used to practice 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.880 my Hall of Fame speech as a kid. I used 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.280 to tell it to my mom. I was, you know, 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:00.360 I'm t I was obsessed with football. I used to 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.960 record the Pro Bowl on audio. You had those little 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:09.520 tape recorders or whatever. I would tape recorded and then 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.880 listen to it back. I would take people's Hall of 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.800 Fame speeches and listen to it back and practice, you know, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.719 because I think back then, they just show you the highlights, 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.079 like Howard Cosell on Monday Night Football or whatever, show 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.440 you the highlights of people's Hall of Fame speeches. And 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.320 I was obsessed with football. And fault. Yeah, I'm as 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.840 good as anybody, and I'm gonna go to the University 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.079 of Michigan or I'm the Purdue or wherever, and I'm 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:39.120 gonna be this dominant NFL football player. And so you 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.400 go into high school, your captain and your high school team. 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.480 You had some really talented guys on that high school team, right, Yeah, 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.960 I had. We had some really you know. Obviously Jeff 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.320 George was the quarterback of my team, and he went 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.800 on to be a Number One draft pick. But you know, 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.400 I played with a lot of Division one players and 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.720 we were the first, uh to win a state championship 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.440 in my high school. And my high school has since 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:08.079 gone on to become like a really national powerhouse. Every 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.760 year we're pretty much nastally ranked and some years will 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:17.640 have as many as eight Division one players on our team. UH. 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.640 But we were the first. I we were the alpha. 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.000 We kind of got the ball rolling on turning my 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.280 high school into a football powerhouse. And that high school Indianapolis, 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:27.719 what's the name of it for people out there, like 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.520 Warren Central High School, the Warren Central Warriors, the home 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.440 David Bell four star recruise headed to produe this year 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.360 how undefeated state champions and I know you're still you 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.720 feel really connected to your high school. I mean you 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.760 watch and pay attention to their games when you can still, right, Yeah, 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.800 I watched games online. I went back for the state 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:52.320 championship game. I'm connected to a lot of the kids 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.520 back there at the high school. You know, the high school. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:02.480 The football team now is you know, overwhelmingly black, and 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.680 it's It's funny. When I was growing up, it was 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.600 conslidered a working class neighborhood, when now my high school 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.600 is kind of on it's just the hood and you 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:18.720 know it's it's a black powerhouse athletically, uh, in football 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:23.000 and basketball. And yeah, I stay in touch with those kids, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.320 try to help him as best that I can. Uh. 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.640 You know, it's like the kid Darnell Smith that works 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.880 on my television show now does our social media segment. 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.319 He's a kid that grew up in my neighborhood, played 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.040 football at my high school and played football ball stage 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.920 just like me. That you know. I've tracked Darnell ever 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720 since high school. So this is, uh, this is fascinating. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.480 So you said your your mom moved to Kansas City. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.720 You're living with your dad in a one bedroom apartment 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.640 when you're a senior in high school. Yeah, what at 0:12:55.679 --> 0:13:01.720 that point in time were your dreams or aspirations? Oh man, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.440 that's interesting of you know, because by that this is 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.880 my senior year of high school, I've kind of figured out, well, damn, 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.200 I'm not going to be this bush or not knocking 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:16.760 on your door, begging you, not knocking on my door, 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.680 not knocking on tru I'm tested about it at this time, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.640 but it's it's becoming a reality to me that Okay, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.760 you're not gonna be a pro football player. You're a 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.800 shade over six ft and you're an offensive lineman. You're 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.199 gonna go play offensive guard somewhere in the Mid American Conference. Uh. 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:38.679 And so I didn't know a lot about college. I 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:45.520 don't say this to embarrass my family, but my legitimate 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:50.240 impression of college at that time was the movie Animal House, 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.480 and I just thought, well, hell, I'm about to go 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:55.720 off to college and have the greatest time in my life. 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.280 I'll study something, I don't know what, I'll study to something, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.720 I'll play a little football, and then I'll get on 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.600 with the rest of my life. And so my original 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:11.560 major in college was accounting. And that's because I had 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.040 overheard my dad say, when you know, when his bar 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.520 business going well, that you know, I got to pay 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:21.840 my accountant X number of dollars for blah blah blah. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.920 And so I said, oh, I'll be an accountant. Uh. 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.520 I went off to college and then I got in 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.200 the math class at Ball State and I was like, 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.240 I won't be an accountant. How long did that did 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:41.000 that revelation take? Uh? Literally, it took one math class 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:45.680 at Ball State for me to say and then for 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.480 it really be like, well, hold on, my dad's account 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.760 was so great, while the hell of the r s 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.320 have us living in a one bedroom apartment in the hood. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.960 But it just I just figured out, like, man, this 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.480 account sol that's not for me. That doesn't fit my personality. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.840 I got way too much of a personality to be 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.400 an accountant. And so one of my best friends from 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:12.680 high school, uh was also I think two years ahead 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.520 of me at Ball State, and he was a journalism 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.720 major at Ball State. And he said to me and 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.800 goes like, dude, man, you read the newspaper every day, 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.400 you love sports, you should be a sportswriter. Switch your 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:33.280 major to journalism. Guy's named Sean for brush and I 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:38.360 immediately switched my major to journalism. And so at eighteen 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.200 and a half, nineteen years old, I was like, oh, man, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:43.640 I know exactly what I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.480 Mike Royko. Mike Royko was a columnist in Chicago that 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.800 at one Peep with Surprises. I started reading him. Uh, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.760 probably when I was in fourth or fifth grade, And 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.040 so as soon as I switched my major journalism, and 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.720 I was like, Oh, I'm to be the sportswriting version 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.720 of Mike Royko. Now I was also a newspaper reader. 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.760 And for a lot of people out there, that's gonna 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.680 be like, who are younger? They're gonna be like, oh 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.680 my god, you know sports Pacer. Sports newspaper writing is 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.760 so outdated in many ways. But even now I get 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.920 the New York Times in the Wall Street Journal delivered 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.680 to my house. I enjoy reading both every day. How 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.640 did you come to start reading the newspaper in fourth 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.000 or fifth grade? What connected you to it? Uh? The 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:33.320 Indiana Pacers. H It was. I was a huge Pacer fan. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.920 My dad took me and my brother the Pacer games. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.520 That was our way of bonding and My dad is 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.040 a huge newspaper reader, and so the only way I 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.680 could follow the Pacers was in the inn Appa Star, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.840 in in Appa's News, and so that's what I did. 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.000 You know, they're particularly they play those late night West 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.840 Coast games or whatever, and you wake up the next 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.400 morning and read about it in the paper to trying 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:02.440 to get up to speed. But it was my love 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.280 of the paces that made me read the local newspaper. 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.520 And again for people out there listening, this is how 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:09.720 I got into the newspaper too. I was a huge 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:13.480 Cincinnati Reds fan, and they would oftentimes play on those 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.359 West Coast games against the Dodgers, the Giants, whatever. It 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.360 was too late for a young kid to watch, and 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.640 so I would get up in the morning and devour 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.919 the devour the box score, right like what happened? Who 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.280 got hits? I was a huge Eric Davis fan. Uh 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:29.359 you know, he was trying to get forty forty home 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.159 runs still forty bases in the same season, and I 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.520 was obsessed with it. So so that was how I 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:38.040 really kind of got into reading newspapers, was seeing my 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:40.640 dad read the sports section and wanting to actually see 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.960 the box scores. So you're you're reading then, and I 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.960 mean it's kind of a window to the world as 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:51.240 you expand beyond the sports page sometimes, right, Yeah, I 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:56.720 accidentally probably read a different section of the paper, uh, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:01.480 and stumbled across Mike Royko and so he syndicated all 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.040 over the countries based in Chicago. And my mother again, 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.919 because I love to read about the Pacers and a 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:09.760 lot of times back in those days and they pay 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.879 all play on the West Coast, the morning paper didn't 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.560 have the story and it would be the afternoon paper 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.880 that would have the story of the nights before game. 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.959 So my mother started getting the afternoon paper because she 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.280 I was obsessed with the Pacers and reading. And so 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.520 in the Indianapolis News, they used to run Mike roy 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:36.000 Coast columns in the A section of their paper like 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.879 three times a week. I don't know what made me 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.960 open up the A section, the non sports section part 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.639 of the paper, but but I did. Right across some 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:52.040 column he wrote that I think upset me. I think 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.479 I've disagreed with But I just started looking for this 0:18:55.600 --> 0:19:02.280 guy's work because he was fast, senating, he was entertaining. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.720 Its hell, he wasn't pc Uh, he really stuck it 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:12.359 to politicians, uh and so, and he just had this 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.560 common sense view. And so half the time I fault, man, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.280 it's the greatest thing I've ever read. The other half 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:20.680 I kind of disagreed with and thought, man, I can't 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.639 believe micro ray Coo said this. But the dude just 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:29.199 struck me as honest and authentic and real. And he 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.040 reminded me to be honest. And I didn't know this 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.320 at the time, but later I found I was true. 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.880 He reminded me of the kind of people that hung 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:41.000 out of my dad's bar in the inner city. And 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:45.880 it's funny because Mike Royko some you know, middle aged 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.280 white dude. But I come to find out later in life, like, oh, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.720 Mike roykos family owned a bar in a in a 0:19:54.800 --> 0:20:01.920 Polish neighborhood, working class neighborhood, and uh, he just like me. 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.199 He used to sit on his dad's bar stool and 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.240 just talk to the working class mail man, factory workers 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:13.720 or whatever. And so it started to make sense like, oh, 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:17.080 you know, even though there's thirty years different problems between 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.920 me and Mike Royko, our perspective was kind of the same. 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:27.199 We both grew up sitting in our dad's bar, talking 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:31.320 to working class people, me talking to working class black people, 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.480 him talking to working class white people. But a lot 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.639 of our perspective and just authenticity came from the same place. 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:41.840 How much time do you spending your dad's bar and 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:49.040 starting at what ages? Uh? I mean, we me and 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.760 my brother as just little kids, because my dad had 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.960 a bar called Jimmy's Jay Bar j that was pretty nice. 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:00.919 My dad built it, him and his brother and a 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.200 couple other guys. They built it by hand themselves, and 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.080 so that's what on weekends when my dad would come 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:12.160 get us, we would, as little kids, go help them 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.679 build the bar, and you know by help me, go 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.120 get me there, go get me that, you know, turn 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.560 that music down. Whatever. It was just a way of 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:22.960 hanging around with my dad and being around him and 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:28.520 so uh once it was built. Uh, during the daytime, 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:34.359 any weekend we were with my dad. Uh, you know, 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.120 we hung out at his bar. Uh and sometimes even 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.240 at night, but he put us back in his office 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.239 at night and we wouldn't get to actually hang out, 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.160 you know, at night. But during the day we said, 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:51.119 right on the bar stool and all day from you know, 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:53.280 he'd get there at eleven and would open a noon 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:59.040 and we might leave at six o'clock. Uh and and 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:03.600 so that was a lot of my weekend as a kid. Uh. 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:09.480 You know, I idolized my dad. My dad was spectacularly dressed, 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:13.560 good looking, Billy Dee Williams knockoff. He was kind of 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.960 my idol and you know, hanging out at his bar 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.080 was one of the greatest things that I got to 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.520 do as a kid. How many hours would your dad 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:30.520 work a week? Uh? You know, in the bar business, 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.080 if you're not there counting the money, trust me, somebody 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:38.119 else is taken it. So he would get there at 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.119 eleven and he would get home about three thirty a 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.520 m uh And again, I want to keep it all 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.399 the way. Really, a lot of that was business, but 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:50.879 a lot of that, again was my dad was a 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:55.440 good looking Billy Dee Williams ladies man, and he enjoyed 0:22:56.320 --> 0:23:00.560 on on the bar. He loved it. And so but 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.000 but yeah, my dad worked six days a week, uh 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.240 at his bar for every day that, you know, except 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.000 you know, get he win a couple of years where 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.400 he was really on his ass, except for those two 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:15.640 years where he didn't on a bar. But again, at 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:17.920 that time. He then he worked for someone else that 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:22.199 was that did on a bar. But my dad, as 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:23.880 far as long as I know, it worked six days 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.040 a week and he pretty much worked from eleven am 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.199 till close. So in some way, growing up with somebody 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.080 like your dad who had an entrepreneurial spirit and also 0:23:32.240 --> 0:23:34.280 worked hard, I mean that's a work ethic that you 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:36.200 kind of pick up on, right. I mean you said 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.280 now with starting off the interview, you work a lot 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:41.680 of hours too at what you do. Yeah. I think 0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:45.199 that that's both my parents. You know. My mother was 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:49.280 again was a factory worker. Took a second job to 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:53.000 get me and my brother, uh up out of the hood. 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:58.040 I don't really remember either one of my parents ever 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:04.000 missing work. Uh, you know, and it's working and you know, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.960 taking care of yourself. Providing for yourself was a big 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.399 part of both of their identities. You know. After my 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:15.879 parents got divorced, my mother was determined, uh, she was 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:22.840 never going to be dependent upon anybody ever again. Remarry No, Uh, 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.840 she did not remarry, and partially just out of her 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:30.040 fears independence and she didn't want to make any compromised 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:34.399 decisions about her son. My dad was irate with my 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.359 This is after they divorced. She was irate with my 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:42.520 mother about moving us out to uh this working class, 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:49.159 uh predominantly white neighborhood and school system. My mom my 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:54.159 dad was you know, very very pro black lived, like 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:58.200 living in all black environments, like working in all black environments. 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.959 He thought my mother made a us mistake moving us 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:06.560 out to Warren Central High School. But my mother's was like, look, man, 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:09.560 I'm not gonna have my kids. Me and my kids 0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:12.159 are gonna live in some neighborhood where we don't feel safe, 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.760 and so I gotta feel safe. I'm divorced. I don't 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:20.200 want my kids in this neighborhood by themselves while I'm 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:23.280 out working. And I mean, look, it turned out to 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:28.160 be a spectacular decision, and my father apologized for later 0:25:28.200 --> 0:25:31.280 in life because that was one of their biggest disagreements 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:34.959 in divorce where me and my brother lived. Uh, and 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:37.960 you know, it turned into a spectaculars and particularly my 0:25:38.040 --> 0:25:40.920 father got more comfortable once they started busting in. The 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:46.360 school was more even racially. But uh, you know that 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:52.879 both of my parents fiercely independent, fiercely hard working, UH 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:57.160 just didn't want to ask anybody for anything. I grew 0:25:57.240 --> 0:25:59.640 up in Indianapolis, move out to the new school. Did 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:01.880 you ravel very much as a kid? Did you get 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:03.520 did you get to go anywhere on vacation? Do you 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:06.960 remember anything where you were exposed to other than maybe 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:10.560 the newspaper, television obviously different parts of the country outside 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:16.639 of the Midwest. Outside of the Midwest. Not a great deal, 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:23.160 but we did. My mother again a hustler to the end. Uh. 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:27.320 She took me and my brother to Disney World, probably 0:26:27.440 --> 0:26:31.320 when I was in second or third grade. Uh. She 0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:34.359 saved up a bunch of money the first time I 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:37.479 ever flew. But we flew down to Disney World in 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:41.840 Florida and Orlando, Florida for a vacation. Probably spent five 0:26:41.960 --> 0:26:46.520 days at disney World. Uh, most amazing experience. I remember. 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:49.879 I was so afraid to fly. My grandmother gave me 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:53.600 a Bible to hold in my lap uh as we 0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:56.679 flew down to Florida, and I retrolled onto that Bible 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:58.720 because I was scared to death to fly and I 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:03.120 thought we were gonna crash. Uh. That's the biggest vacation 0:27:03.200 --> 0:27:06.480 I can remember. But I can also remember, Uh, my 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:12.520 mother was friends with a guy that had a limousine service. 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:19.159 And he loaned my mother one of his limousines, and 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:25.399 my mother piled up her kids, her sister's kids, and 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:28.720 her sister, and I said also maybe, yeah, I think 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:32.720 maybe her brother's kids as well. We all hopped in 0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:36.440 this limousine, probably fifteen of us, and drove the four 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:40.320 hours to St. Louis and stay with the Six Flags, 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:43.919 uh for like two days a theme park there, and 0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:48.720 I can remember we all went to some fancy steak restaurant. Uh. 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:53.480 So those are the two big vacations that I can 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.560 remember growing up. But that was about it. Other than that, 0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:00.720 I don't remember leaving Iniapolus too much. Mom drove the 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:06.119 limo herself. Yes, that's awesome. Now, when you're at Disney World, 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.000 you haven't been outside of Indianapolis very much. You suddenly 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.720 walk into the happiest place on Earth. You said, you 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.680 remember it still well to this day. Did it seem 0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:16.760 like such a culture shock? You're on that airplane, you 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.040 got the Bible, You're afraid you're gonna crash. You land 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:21.920 in Orlando, Florida had to seem like a crazy place 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:25.280 compared to in general, you know, Indianapolis, Indiana, just the 0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:28.239 colors and the vibrancy and everything else associated with it. 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:30.960 I mean that had to be still an eye opening experience, right. 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:35.560 It was, But I don't know if I had experienced 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:38.480 it in that way as an eye open I just 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:42.760 experienced it like this is incredible. I get to get 0:28:42.800 --> 0:28:47.440 on rides every day. At night, my mother would give 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:49.720 me and my brother five dollars a piece and we 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.520 go to a game room because we stayed at the 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:55.760 actual theme park and they had some game room, and 0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:59.920 we take those five dollars twenty quarters and that right 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:05.080 for twenty quarters and just go to that game room 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.320 and have fun every night. We got to go swimming 0:29:07.440 --> 0:29:11.680 every day. I just remember thinking it was the funnest 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.680 four or five days I've ever had my life. And 0:29:14.760 --> 0:29:19.280 it you know, here I am Versuly forty five, forty 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:21.760 six years later, and I can still remember. Be sure 0:29:21.800 --> 0:29:23.960 to catch live editions if I would kicked the coverage 0:29:24.000 --> 0:29:26.880 with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three 0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:30.600 am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio. 0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:34.680 I this is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Here's 0:29:34.720 --> 0:29:39.240 more from his conversation with Jason Whitlock. Okay, so we 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.200 circled around there. But I want to go back to you. 0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:46.760 At you at Ball State. You walk onto that campus 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:49.160 in Muncy, Indiana, you start off as an accountant, you 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:52.880 decide you're gonna be a journalism major instead on the 0:29:52.880 --> 0:29:56.400 football field. Were you a disinterested athlete? Were you? They're 0:29:56.560 --> 0:29:59.720 almost aware, Hey, I want to get an education. Now? 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:02.600 What was your thought process at nineteen years old at 0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:06.880 Ball State? As I said, my Ball process was, I'm 0:30:06.920 --> 0:30:10.120 about to have the Animal House movie experience. And so 0:30:11.240 --> 0:30:15.320 I just remember the first weekend there to be quite 0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:18.800 just getting drunk as hell long and Little King's beers 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:25.040 and thinking that, Wow, this is amazing. Uh. And I 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:30.760 remember not being nearly as committed to football as I 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:37.200 should be. Uh. I came with just the absolute wrong attitude. 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:40.000 My high school football team was a powerhouse. We were 0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:44.440 nationally ranked and in some ways we had better facilities 0:30:44.480 --> 0:30:47.600 than even Ball State. And I came with an attitude 0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:50.280 that I was better than this place. I should have 0:30:50.360 --> 0:30:55.080 been in some Big ten school. And my attitude was 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:58.200 just all wrong. I came in out of shape and 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:02.160 just had a terrible fresh spend year, but had the 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:06.440 time of my life on campus. Uh. Got a one 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:10.360 point oh my first semester in college because I barely 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:14.560 attended classes because I was quite frankly, just hungover and 0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:21.120 disinterested in the whole thing. And just my freshman year 0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:24.000 was just kind of a blur. I was in constant 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:28.720 trouble with the football coaches and scrambling to try to 0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:33.720 make up for a horrible, horribly bad first semester of 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:38.640 academics of ball State. But I was just making friends 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:43.000 and just having the time of my life. When does 0:31:43.040 --> 0:31:45.160 that start to shift? Did you ever commit yourself to 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:47.480 football at all? Or was it just kind of a 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:52.440 one ft in process throughout UH Me and the offensive 0:31:52.480 --> 0:32:00.560 line coach at that time started a very hateful relationship. 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:04.160 I couldn't stand the guy. And keep in mind, and 0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:08.040 this is what I was there. I was probably their 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:12.200 top recruit coming in. They had high expectations for me. 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:17.120 Great kid captured this nationally ranked football team, and I 0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.680 was a major disappointment. And so for two years, ME 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:23.440 and the offensive line coach just went to war. He 0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:27.960 left took another job someplace else, and so in my 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.320 third year as a Red Church sophomore, I got a 0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:33.280 new offensive line coach, and I just took on a 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:39.040 whole new attitude. Now, trust before this guy left. I 0:32:39.080 --> 0:32:43.160 tried to quit the football team my second year and 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.840 I called my parents. I called my mom first and 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:49.520 and told her I was going to quit, and she 0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:52.520 said she was living in Kansas City. She said, well, 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:54.320 good luck with your dad, because you're sure as hell 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.760 can't come here if you quit that football scholarship. I 0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:00.720 called my dad and looked, there, you know, I can 0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:03.280 come work for you at your bar, and he goes, man, 0:33:03.320 --> 0:33:05.320 you take you. I asked the kids the city, because 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.240 you can't come here if you quit that football scholarship. 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:12.240 And so that was kind of my wake up moment. 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:16.880 And shortly after trying to quit and my parents not 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:21.480 allowing it, UH, the offensive line coach left and I 0:33:21.520 --> 0:33:23.720 got a new offensive line coach, a guy that name 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.880 of Lawrence Cooley, and my whole attitude and approach changed, 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:32.080 and sure enough, a guy that was playing in front 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.680 of me he quit the team, and the next thing 0:33:34.720 --> 0:33:38.440 you know, I was in the playing rotation and the 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:42.480 next year I was a full time starter, and you know, 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:45.200 football kind of took off for me for two years. 0:33:45.920 --> 0:33:48.880 Having said that, I played my fourth year with a 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:53.840 torn a c l UH. That was misdiagnosed by the doctors. 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:57.640 Was just stretched blah blah blah. Uh, and so I 0:33:57.840 --> 0:34:02.040 ended up my fifth year not playing. One of the 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.400 one of my other biggest regrets of life was not 0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:09.839 playing my fifth year of college because I was just 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.080 I was just tapped out on football and I shouldn't 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:17.719 have been, and I wanted to focus on journalism and 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:20.640 preparing for the rest of my life. It's a decision 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:23.520 I regret, but it's a decision and paid major dividends 0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:27.040 for me. My fifth year school, I was an actual student. 0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:34.680 I started writing for the school newspaper. My grades skyrocketed. Uh. 0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:38.759 It's the It's the only real preparation I did for 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:43.040 my career was working for the school newspaper. Because again, 0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:47.720 back in those days, all the journalists they'd start taking 0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:53.200 internships as freshman, sophomores, and juniors, and really they would 0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:56.480 have worked for the school newspaper for three and four years. 0:34:56.880 --> 0:34:59.279 I'm so glad I had that fifth year school where 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:03.640 I could do the at and and start get my 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:07.000 journalism career on track and get it started. But I 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:11.520 really regret not playing that fifth year of football. Uh, 0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:16.040 because once I got away from football, I realized exactly 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:18.600 how much I loved it and missed it. And but 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:21.719 but it worked out for me career wise. I don't 0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:24.040 I think if I had played football my fifth year 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.560 in college, I'm not sure I would have made it 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:30.279 as a journalist. What if your mom or dad had 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:35.000 allowed you to quit football, what would you be doing now? Oh? 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:39.960 I probably would have went back to Indianapolis and started 0:35:39.960 --> 0:35:44.319 working for my dad in the bar business. And I 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:50.360 probably would own my dad's bar, the Masterpiece Lounge, and 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.719 in the inner city of Indianapolis. And my dad, you know, 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.640 my dad's passed on and so I I'd probably still 0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.319 be running a Masterpiece Lounge, all right, So you have that. 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:02.360 Uh And and by the way, do you think that 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:03.960 would have been a happy life? Do you think you 0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:06.359 would have had regrets? I mean, what, that's a big 0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:09.640 difference between having your own television show as you do 0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:14.920 now on national television and and running a bar in Indianapolis. 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:16.840 But do you think you would be sitting at the 0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:19.600 bar like questioning your decision making or do you think 0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:21.680 you would have ended up happy as a bar owner too? 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:28.280 That that's a that's that's tough. But my dad would 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:35.200 probably say, I would be miserable because he would say, like, oh, 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:39.759 he that I wasn't really built to run his bar, 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.919 and and and because and I really was. My bad 0:36:44.080 --> 0:36:46.759 is one of the toughest human beings I know. And 0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:49.719 so I'm gonna say a couple of things that some 0:36:49.920 --> 0:36:56.200 of your listeners probably won't understand. But if you know 0:36:56.280 --> 0:36:59.360 anything about the inner city, and you know anything about 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:03.120 the kind of bar are my dad ran, you had 0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:05.480 to be tough. People had to be afraid of you, 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.759 and in order to survive or they were in the 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.040 inner city where my dad's bar, people are gonna take 0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:16.759 advantage of you if you were not willing to pull 0:37:16.760 --> 0:37:21.360 out your thirty eight Revolver with the intent of using 0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.520 it if someone got out of hand. And my dad 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:31.960 was that kind of tough and unafraid. I've never I 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:35.239 my dad carried his third a revolver every day that 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:38.440 I knew it, I wouldn't want. I don't think I 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:43.600 was built to be that person to carry a gun 0:37:43.880 --> 0:37:47.440 every day and know that, you know, things could get 0:37:47.440 --> 0:37:49.520 out of hand. And again, I don't want to paint 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:52.680 the Masteries Lounge to something where something happened all the time, 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:56.319 because it didn't the bars open three hundred days a 0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:59.480 year or three hundred days of a year. You know, 0:37:59.760 --> 0:38:02.680 some thing may happen once or twice a year, but 0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:06.200 you always gotta be prepared for those one or two times. 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:12.680 And I'll never forget the my when my dad passed away, 0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:15.800 I threw a big party at the Masterpiece Loue. It 0:38:15.880 --> 0:38:19.239 was the last day that the Witlocks owned and operated 0:38:19.239 --> 0:38:22.200 the Masterpiece Louge. It was all illegal. I'm sure if 0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:25.080 the government's listening, we probably get sued. Because my dad 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:27.640 was dead, we didn't have the liquor lis. But anyway, 0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:30.560 we threw this big party, uh for all. And I 0:38:30.560 --> 0:38:33.600 can remember when I closed up, when we closed up 0:38:33.640 --> 0:38:37.719 the bar at three am, in the back behind my 0:38:37.800 --> 0:38:41.799 dad's bar, right outside in the back, there were like 0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:46.640 three guys just beating the dog shit out of somebody. 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:52.120 We just as I'm about to lock up in the back, 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:55.799 I'm just looking at these three guys beat the ship 0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:59.839 out of this dude. And I can remember a lock 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:06.040 up the place and saying myself, yeah, I couldn't deal 0:39:06.080 --> 0:39:09.200 with this. This is not the life that I was 0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:14.920 built for. Um. And so you know what, I've been happy, 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:23.680 probably not what I found some contentment, probably, but I 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:27.319 don't think running the Masterpiece Lounge was what I was 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:31.080 meant to do in this life. You graduate from Ball State, 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:35.719 it's you got that journalism degree. How did you get 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:40.239 your first job and what did it pay? I got 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:44.400 my first job basically from begging every newspaper in the 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:48.240 country to even consider hiring me. How, as I said, 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:52.600 sending out letters like to the newspapers letters, yeah there were, 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:56.960 I don't there was no email in and so you're 0:39:57.000 --> 0:40:00.000 writing letters to damn me, every newspaper in the country, 0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:04.759 reece your resume. Here's examples of my clips. And basically 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:09.319 everybody told me you're not qualified, and they were absolutely right. 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:14.640 I had spent one year working for the school newspaper. 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:19.080 All of my peers at the newspaper had spent three 0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:22.960 or four years. They had done internships with major newspapers 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:26.120 or local newspapers. I hadn't done any of those things, 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:30.960 and so I just kept writing newspapers. And finally the 0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:35.640 Bloomington Herald Times in Bloomington, Indiana looked at my resume 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:38.600 and said, oh man, this guy's a former college football 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:41.799 player and all that, and and the blooms In Here 0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:46.719 Old Times. Their writers remembered me from high school because 0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:49.440 I was such a dominant high school player. The bloom 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:53.200 Canerild Times ran the most prestigious all state team, the 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:56.400 Bloomin Herold Top thirty three, and I had been named 0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:00.000 to that and again we were this nasty ran team 0:41:00.040 --> 0:41:01.759 was a couple of sports like, oh man, that's at 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:05.520 Jason Black and blah blah blah. I wonder we should 0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:07.840 take a flyer on him. And so they offered me 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:11.719 a part time job at five dollars and twenty five 0:41:11.760 --> 0:41:15.160 cent an hour for twenty thirty hours worth of work 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.640 a week. So you moved to Bloomington, Indiana. Yeah, and 0:41:19.840 --> 0:41:24.000 for twenty or thirty hours a week? Where do you live? 0:41:25.320 --> 0:41:30.880 I lived in a one room efficiency, probably two miles 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:33.439 from the office, but you know it's blooming because where 0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:36.440 Indian University is, And so I just lived like a 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:40.879 very poor college student, uh, in a one room efficiency 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:43.760 that you know, it was equipped with roaches and everything. 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:46.600 I shared it with a few roaches or whatever. But yeah, 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:50.799 that's down the street from the newspaper in a one 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:54.880 room efficiency. And you do that for how long? I 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:59.120 did it for eleven months, and uh, the you know, 0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:04.160 they were right in terms of my qualifications for a 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:08.719 full time job. Uh, but they were also right that 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:14.879 I had a work ethic that was going to help 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:19.280 me improve rather quickly. And so Bob Hammel, Bobby Knight's 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:23.560 best friend, was the sports editor at the time, and 0:42:23.840 --> 0:42:26.680 I basically just one. I lived in one room efficiency, 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:28.960 so I just lived at the office. I chewed up 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:31.879 at the office at eight in the morning, and i'd 0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:35.520 leave at midnight, and you know, i'd go out and 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:38.239 do my assignments, and they would mark it all up 0:42:38.280 --> 0:42:41.239 and heavily at it and try try to teach me, 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:44.759 you know, to catch up with everybody else. And I 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:48.200 did a lot of work on my own. And uh 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:50.799 so they I did a great job there. I had 0:42:50.800 --> 0:42:55.799 a great work ethic, I had dramatic improvement. Uh. They 0:42:55.840 --> 0:42:58.759 all loved me, but there was no room for me 0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:01.400 to be a full time or triter there. And so 0:43:01.440 --> 0:43:04.440 I the whole time I'm there, I'm writing other newspapers, 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.040 continuing to beg for a full time job or ask 0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:11.279 for a bang. It's not the right word. And eventually 0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:18.200 the Charlotte Observer, because because of I wrote this very 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:23.440 impressive autobiography about myself. They asked me to write a 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:26.319 story about myself and I did, and that made the 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:31.839 Charlotte Observer take a chance on me and offer me 0:43:32.000 --> 0:43:35.400 a chance to try out for two weeks for a 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:38.399 full time job at the Charlotte Observer. So you've never 0:43:38.440 --> 0:43:41.279 been to Charlotte. Before you get into a car, you 0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:43.520 get onto an airplane, how do you get to Charlotte 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:47.520 and what did you think when you arrived in that city. 0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:51.280 I flew to Charlotte because it's a two week trial 0:43:51.920 --> 0:43:54.000 and it's the first time they've ever done a trial. 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:56.880 But they said that this autobiore if I wrote was 0:43:56.920 --> 0:44:01.400 so impressive, and they put me in a little hotel 0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:05.719 like a Red ruffin for for two weeks, and I 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.719 worked at the Charlotte Observer and they had with a 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:14.360 bureau and Rockhill, South Carolina covering high school sports. And 0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:17.279 I did a try out there for two weeks and 0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:19.239 at the end of the trial, they offered me a 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:22.439 full time job at four hundred three dollars a week. 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:25.080 Four hundred and three dollars a week. So when you 0:44:25.160 --> 0:44:28.320 tell your parents about you know, your job status, what's 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:31.160 dad and Mom's response when you say you're moving to Charlotte, 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:34.040 because that's a lot different than you. They're ecstatic. They 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:36.640 were proud of you. Oh yeah, this is it's the 0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:39.839 Charlotte Observer. Back then, you know, the Charotte Reserver had 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:43.520 a great reputation. And when you're making five dollars and 0:44:43.880 --> 0:44:46.560 five cents an hour and your parents are still sending 0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:49.960 your little spirit change, you know, four hundred three dollars 0:44:50.000 --> 0:44:55.359 a week, and and what that sounded like a ship 0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.160 ton of money to me and them. All right, so 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.279 you do that? How long do you what? What kind 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:03.920 of work did you do at the Charlotte Observer. I 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:09.160 covered high school sports and little league sports. And then 0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:15.480 because I was a hustler, I recognized that, you know, 0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.839 I can cover these high school sports, and that's one thing. 0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:21.040 But if I really want to move ahead, I got 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:25.000 to find the niche here that's not being covered there 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:27.680 will get me some attention. Because when you worked in 0:45:27.719 --> 0:45:32.080 one of those bureaus, they had their own little section 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.120 of the paper, like called the rock Hill Observer or 0:45:36.120 --> 0:45:39.440 something of the York Observers called a local news section 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.799 that's a supplement to the regular paper. Yes, and the 0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:45.840 only way to get any attention was to get into 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:51.960 the regular newspaper. So what I did is I got there. 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:54.720 I was like, well, hold on, man, at this time, 0:45:55.080 --> 0:46:01.680 rap music is becoming a big deal in American politics. 0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:07.560 And it's like Sister Soldier at that time got into 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:11.399 it where Bill Clinton was talking about her. And then 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:15.280 at that time, all black kids, including myself, we're wearing 0:46:15.280 --> 0:46:19.120 those Malcolm X hats with the X on the hat. 0:46:19.640 --> 0:46:26.359 And so I started pitching stories to the main newspaper about, hey, man, 0:46:26.400 --> 0:46:29.319 you should let me write a piece about what does 0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:32.520 it mean to wear these X hats? Two kids even 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:35.840 recognize the significance of the do they know? Is it 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:38.600 just a fad or do they really know? And they 0:46:38.640 --> 0:46:43.680 I started pitching basically black ideas to the Charlotte Observer. 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:46.640 They didn't have anybody to execute them, or no one 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:49.920 even thought this way, and so I did a story 0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:54.920 about kids wearing Malcolm X hats. The singing group Jodice 0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:59.400 was from Charlotte, North Carolina, and they became a big 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:02.960 deal when I was there. They didn't have anybody to 0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.759 write about. Jody See this R and B group. I 0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:08.600 wrote a story about. I got Jody See on the phone, 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:12.000 interviewed and wrote a story about him. UH wrote a 0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:17.120 story about sister soldier Uh Luke, the rapper Luke became 0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:21.239 a big deal. He did a concert in UH in 0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:24.040 North Carolina. I went and interviewed him, wrote a story 0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:29.799 about him. I just started just pitching the main newspaper 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:33.000 these ideas that no one else would think of. And 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:36.719 it got me a lot of attention. And it it, 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:41.080 you know, made me a young star at the Charlotte Observer, 0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:47.359 and that got me a job in ann Arbor, Michigan, UH, 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:50.160 covering the Fab five for the ann Arbor News. And 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:53.240 so I was only in Charlotte for like fourteen months. 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:57.759 Did the news find you or did you find them? 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:02.520 The ann Arbor News contact at me. They they had 0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:07.560 some editor there I think named ed Petti kevit Uh 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:10.640 that had heard about me and the things that I 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:15.879 was doing in Charlotte, and so they reached out to me. 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.120 And so you did you immediately know yes, I want 0:48:21.160 --> 0:48:24.719 this job? Did you see the Fab five coming? Uh? What? How? 0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:26.719 How did you make the decision to move from because 0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:30.799 I'm assuming Charlotte's a young, rapidly growing city. You've obviously 0:48:30.880 --> 0:48:34.600 got the voice or the ear of of editors there. 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:37.640 You're writing interesting stories that no one else is writing. 0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:40.080 Was that a difficult decision? How did you make the 0:48:40.120 --> 0:48:43.360 decision to go to ann Arbor? It's very easy decision 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:48.279 because and I don't want to exaggerate this, but this 0:48:48.320 --> 0:48:53.680 is just facts. No young person ever came to Charlotte 0:48:54.320 --> 0:48:58.799 and did what I did in fourteen months, and I 0:48:58.800 --> 0:49:01.960 would say hidden months. And it was like, holy cow, 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:07.120 this guy's amazing because I came there not a great writer, 0:49:07.800 --> 0:49:11.480 but they had an editor there and an editing system 0:49:11.800 --> 0:49:16.440 that taught me and really accelerated my writing ability. Guy 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:18.560 named Bill O'Connor. Got to give him credit. He was 0:49:18.600 --> 0:49:22.080 a hard ass, but he's great editor. My writing accelerated 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:25.880 really quickly. I did all these interesting stories. I crushed it. 0:49:26.760 --> 0:49:30.560 And so after a year of just crushing it, I 0:49:30.560 --> 0:49:34.320 think they offered me a thirty dollar a week raise. 0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:38.200 And I remember what I said. It at me. I go, man, 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:43.080 you're crazy after what I just did, You're gonna give 0:49:43.080 --> 0:49:47.160 me a thirty dollar a week raise? And and I 0:49:47.239 --> 0:49:49.480 remember they were so upset. They were telling what a 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:52.880 percentage raised this was, and that I was crazy for 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:58.600 my reaction, and uh, and then like two months later, 0:49:58.640 --> 0:50:02.319 the ann Arbor News offered me the job that they 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:06.399 did and it was for thirty five thousand dollars a year, 0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:10.480 which was I think I was making twenty five thousand 0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:14.720 dollars in Charlotte. And when the ant Arvor News offered 0:50:14.719 --> 0:50:16.439 me that job and it was covering the Fat Five, 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:19.520 I was still covering My main job was still covering 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:22.040 high school sports. When I was in Charlotte. I had 0:50:22.080 --> 0:50:24.479 done all this other work, but there was no real 0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:27.000 promotion and it was just and I can't remember. There 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:29.120 was a guy and this guy can't stand because I 0:50:29.160 --> 0:50:32.120 tell this story all the time. Rich Apple was the 0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:36.080 editor of the Charlotte Observer at the time, and he 0:50:36.840 --> 0:50:39.359 remember he hunted me down in the main news room 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:42.440 to tell me what a gigantic mistake I was making 0:50:42.960 --> 0:50:46.000 leaving for the ann Harbor News. And I remember just 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:51.319 laughing and leaving. But dude, it was covering the Fat Five, 0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:55.040 the Fat Five. This I covered them their sophomore years, 0:50:55.080 --> 0:50:59.919 so they were already this huge, storious freshman and then 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:01.560 this like bamn, and I get to go to and 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:04.600 up and covered these guys. This is my rocket ship 0:51:04.640 --> 0:51:06.759 to the moon. All right, let me hit here, because 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:09.000 I do think this is instructive. We're talking to Jason Wentlock. 0:51:09.000 --> 0:51:12.480 Appreciate everybody listening. I think this is instructive for a 0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:16.719 lot of people, because I always say this, Looking for 0:51:16.800 --> 0:51:19.719 other jobs if you're happy is an interesting decision, but 0:51:19.920 --> 0:51:23.840 finding out how your current job values you is often 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:27.879 instructive in terms of where you can go going forward. Right, 0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:29.600 And I've been through this situation. I think a lot 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:31.600 of people who are listening to us have as well. 0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:36.120 That raise that they offered you was indicative that they 0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.600 may be thought your ceiling was not as high as 0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:41.399 you thought it was, right, And so finding out how 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:44.360 you're valued by your employer, even if you don't like 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:48.319 the dollar figure, is oftentimes very helpful in allowing you 0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:50.080 to make decisions about what to do and where to 0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:52.719 go forward. Right. I mean, because that is I think 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.640 something that everybody in their life, at some point in time, 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:57.880 you will think you're worth a lot more money than 0:51:57.920 --> 0:52:00.160 you're offered, and you'll have a choice, do I can 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:02.880 up and take less, or do I potentially go elsewhere. 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.839 My advice a lot of times is when somebody undervalues you, 0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:08.879 that's a sign of where they think you can go. 0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:12.200 Sometimes it's not a bad move to then start looking around, 0:52:12.200 --> 0:52:15.160 because going back to you, if the Charlotte Observer had 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:18.359 doubled your salary, you probably would have stated Charlotte right, 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:26.600 probably and probably, but maybe not, because again, me and 0:52:26.640 --> 0:52:31.040 the Charlotte Observer had a couple of little just disagreements 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:36.239 because here they come in with the thirty dollar raise 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:39.560 and I get it in newspaper and based on percentage, 0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:42.279 this is an amazing blah blah blah. But to me, 0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:46.880 the way I interpreted was, y'all won't come off this 0:52:47.160 --> 0:52:52.200 narrative that you're doing me a favor. It doesn't matter 0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:56.719 what work I put in. And because again they made me. 0:52:57.120 --> 0:53:00.000 Never in the history of the newspaper had they made 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.960 someone come in and do a two week trial, and 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:05.960 so that that was already and so I have no problem. 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:08.239 I'll come in. I got no problem, and I knock 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:10.919 it out of the park during those two weeks when 0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:13.719 they sent me down to offer me the full time job. 0:53:13.880 --> 0:53:15.960 I'm not gonna say the lady's name because she's not 0:53:16.040 --> 0:53:18.600 a bad person and I'm not saying this to embarrassing, 0:53:19.120 --> 0:53:23.200 but she tries, she tells me in that meeting. You're 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:28.120 an Affirmative Action higher and you know, we really feel 0:53:28.160 --> 0:53:31.680 good about what we're doing here, and and and literally 0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:34.719 I'm not making this stuff. I go, hey, hey, hey, 0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:37.839 I'm not all affirmative Action higher. I just did a 0:53:37.840 --> 0:53:41.759 two week trial where I just showed you what I 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:44.920 can do. So either you're hiring me because I just 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:47.960 showed you what I could do, but you're not hiring 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:50.680 me because you're doing me a favor and you're meeting 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:55.320 some affirmative action quota. And she got all taken aback, 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:58.560 no one. And here I was, this four year old 0:53:59.160 --> 0:54:02.080 in need of a for talk job, talking to her 0:54:02.200 --> 0:54:06.200 this way, and and she got taken aback and and 0:54:06.200 --> 0:54:09.680 and pushed back, and I pushed back even stronger. I 0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:12.120 was like, don't give me no job out of a favor. 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:14.680 I just came in here and kicked ask for two weeks. 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:19.279 She basically just we agreed to disagree. She gave me 0:54:19.320 --> 0:54:26.239 the job, and that's what motivated me. I was like, Oh, 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:30.000 they think they're doing me a favor. I'm gonna come 0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:34.040 in here and destroy this place and destroy it with 0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:36.920 my work ethic, not in a bad way, not called 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:40.280 see anybody problems. But they put it after my first 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:44.960 year there, they put it in my written evaluation, Jason 0:54:45.080 --> 0:54:49.000 works too much. He needs to do other things besides work. 0:54:49.560 --> 0:54:53.160 But I was so instant that they thought they were 0:54:53.200 --> 0:54:56.799 doing me a favor. I was like, I'm gonna destroy everybody, 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.600 and that's what I did. And no one can deny 0:55:00.680 --> 0:55:04.600 it because they've never seen anybody come in one year 0:55:05.320 --> 0:55:07.879 that inexperience and do the kind of work get all 0:55:07.880 --> 0:55:10.440 the a one stories they had people working in the 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:14.520 main knit newsroom that might get one story on the 0:55:14.560 --> 0:55:17.399 front page of the Charlotte Observer a year. I did 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:20.920 it like five times in a six month period on 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:25.759 my as a side job. And so when they come 0:55:25.800 --> 0:55:29.040 with the thirty dollar raise after I just put on 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:34.240 Michael Jordan's displayed for a year, I'm even further piss 0:55:34.239 --> 0:55:36.960 because I'm like, Oh, they won't come off this original 0:55:37.080 --> 0:55:41.040 narrative that they're doing me a favor, and they have 0:55:41.160 --> 0:55:44.440 some little glass ceiling that they have for me, and 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:46.080 so I was like, Oh, I can't wait to get 0:55:46.120 --> 0:55:49.319 up out of here. I'm gonna show these people. You 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:52.400 go to the news, a smaller newspaper, right, but you 0:55:52.560 --> 0:55:55.120 think because of what the Fab five has meant to 0:55:55.200 --> 0:55:58.279 the culture and the stories of sports in year one, 0:55:58.840 --> 0:56:02.280 that that's an incredible story to step into for year two. 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:06.760 So you walk in to cover Michigan in the middle 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:11.160 of the Fab five era, and you walk in and 0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:14.400 how many beat writers are covering the University of Michigan 0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:20.040 at the time. Um, I would say day to day 0:56:20.040 --> 0:56:23.160 five or six. You know, you certainly have the Detroit 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:28.160 Free Press and let Detroit News News, the ad Arbor News, 0:56:28.440 --> 0:56:32.759 and a couple of the other little surrounding newspapers. I 0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:34.960 would say, covered up on a day to day basis. 0:56:35.000 --> 0:56:36.800 Are you the only black guy who's covering him on 0:56:36.800 --> 0:56:42.440 a day to day basis? Uh? Yes, be sure to 0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:44.680 catch live editions if I would kicked the coverage with 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:48.320 Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern, three am Pacific, 0:56:48.640 --> 0:56:52.120 Clay Travis dives deep with Jason Whitlock on the Wins 0:56:52.200 --> 0:56:56.400 and Losses podcast. So, and you're also young in addition 0:56:56.440 --> 0:57:00.000 to being black. You're like two years old at this point. 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:02.839 So you're not that much older than Chris Webber, than 0:57:02.920 --> 0:57:06.799 Juwan Howard, than Jalen Rose, all those guys, right, You 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:10.880 not at all. So, just from a youth and also 0:57:10.920 --> 0:57:13.640 from a culture perspective, you probably connect better with those 0:57:13.640 --> 0:57:15.680 guys than most of the people who are covering them. 0:57:15.760 --> 0:57:19.640 That'd be fair to say, no question. I certainly the 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:24.800 advantage I had is I could hear things others couldn't, 0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:28.160 you know, in term, there was no slang they could use, 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:31.560 any coded language they could use that I couldn't pick 0:57:31.680 --> 0:57:35.680 up on. There was no body language that I couldn't read. 0:57:36.360 --> 0:57:42.240 And so yeah, I could read those kids. I felt 0:57:42.480 --> 0:57:49.200 better than my competition. What was your relationship like with them? Uh? 0:57:49.240 --> 0:57:53.040 Pretty good? Uh, you know, because it was more of 0:57:53.080 --> 0:57:57.880 a sparring relationship because I certainly have my point of view, 0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:03.000 and uh, you know, not all of it did they 0:58:03.040 --> 0:58:05.200 agree with. Because I remember I wrote a colin It 0:58:05.320 --> 0:58:08.480 was very popular there. The Malcolm X movie I think, 0:58:08.520 --> 0:58:11.040 came out during that time when I was there, and 0:58:11.080 --> 0:58:13.440 I wrote a column what would Malcolm X think about 0:58:13.440 --> 0:58:19.960 the Fab five? And it wasn't probably the most positive 0:58:20.240 --> 0:58:25.200 thing you could write. Uh, But those guys didn't mind 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:28.880 sparring with me. They were young and had their own 0:58:28.920 --> 0:58:34.680 thoughts and so, uh, you know. Jalen Rose and uh 0:58:34.840 --> 0:58:37.760 was certainly a guy that's not afraid to speak his 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:41.880 opinion or whatever. But I gotta I remember what I 0:58:41.920 --> 0:58:44.560 got along pretty well, because I can remember. I wrote 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:47.920 a story where I went and played video games at 0:58:47.960 --> 0:58:51.560 Chris Webber's apartment. I went and played video games with 0:58:51.640 --> 0:58:54.760 him and his apartment uh in ann Arbor, and wrote 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:59.640 a first person story about that of Juwan Howard and 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:02.040 I out along pretty well. He had a friend named 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:07.160 Juice that I was very tight with. Uh. Probably Ray 0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:10.280 Jackson as the guy got along with the best. Jimmy 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:15.880 King was pretty distant. Uh. But it was a good experience. 0:59:15.920 --> 0:59:19.040 But you know, even more than that, or even in 0:59:19.080 --> 0:59:23.800 addition to that, my football coach at Ball State was 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:29.680 a long time Bosham Beckler assistant coach, and so my 0:59:29.760 --> 0:59:34.520 whole Ball State's entire football program when I played there 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:39.040 was based off the Michigan football program, and so that 0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:43.120 gave me tremendous insight also into my coverage of the 0:59:43.200 --> 0:59:48.160 University of Michigan football team, and so I just I 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:52.640 went gangbusters in a and Harbor covering the fat Fire 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:56.480 basketball and the University of Michigan football. I had so 0:59:56.560 --> 1:00:01.160 much interesting insight and so many interesting things to say 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:03.520 that you know because they are where they start letting 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:08.000 me occasionally write a column and opinion piece in addition 1:00:08.360 --> 1:00:13.440 to covering the teams, and my column there quickly became 1:00:14.360 --> 1:00:17.640 you know, must read and the biggest thing going in 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:21.000 that area. What video games you play with Chris Webber? 1:00:21.040 --> 1:00:28.960 Do you remember man I meane I techn Mobol. I 1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:31.520 don't think it was. It may have been tech Mobile, 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:34.080 I I don't remember. I really don't. Do you have 1:00:34.080 --> 1:00:40.640 any kind of relationship with those guys now? No, it's weird. 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:47.240 I think Chris Webber and I had some disconnect, probably 1:00:47.280 --> 1:00:50.200 because I didn't like the way he handled that Ed 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:55.160 Martin situation that got him in trouble. And uh, I 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:57.440 think I wrote some when he was in the NBA 1:00:57.880 --> 1:01:01.600 during his NBA career. I I wrote some things critical. 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:05.040 But it's like we follow each other over Twitter. But 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:10.320 I don't communicate with Chris. I do communicate with Jalen Rose. 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:15.360 I think we have the mutual respected affinity for each other. 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:20.040 We're both very close to Isaiah Thomas Um and I'm 1:01:20.040 --> 1:01:24.200 a I'm a fan of Jalen's media career. I've supported 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:30.760 his school to his Detroit Leadership Academy in Detroit. Uh. 1:01:30.840 --> 1:01:35.400 And when I've seen Juwan back during when the when 1:01:35.440 --> 1:01:37.720 he was playing with the Heat, and so was Lebron James. 1:01:38.400 --> 1:01:41.560 We're very cool. His friend Juice passed away and I 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:44.040 remember talking to him about that, but I can't say 1:01:44.080 --> 1:01:47.240 I'm particularly close to any Hum. How many hours a 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:49.520 day would you say you were working when you were 1:01:49.520 --> 1:01:56.160 covering the beat for Michigan and Harbor. Uh. That was 1:01:57.400 --> 1:02:04.480 very intense, and so I would say fourteen hours a 1:02:04.560 --> 1:02:10.720 day because that was so intense and so competitive. Uh. 1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:13.720 They the Detroit News had a guy named Jim Spatiford 1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:18.920 that covered the team, who was very good, and for 1:02:18.960 --> 1:02:23.600 some reason, Greg I can't remember Greg's last name, UH 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:28.200 covered for the Detroit Free Press. Uh. Greg ended up 1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:30.640 being a columnist down in Florida for somebody. I can't 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:35.320 remember Greg's last Greg Stolda. Uh. Those guys very good, 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:40.400 very experienced, twenty years older than me, but they were 1:02:40.640 --> 1:02:44.400 very good, had connections which matter in the beat now. 1:02:44.440 --> 1:02:46.120 In those days. Two, for people out there who may 1:02:46.120 --> 1:02:48.919 not be aware, you would wake up every morning, look 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:51.880 the newspapers of your competitors as well as your own, 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:53.560 and be like man, I hope I didn't get scooped 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:56.000 because the internet doesn't exist, right, and you don't necessarily 1:02:56.040 --> 1:02:59.720 know what those guys are writing. Yeah, you got those 1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:02.320 new papers delivered to your home, or you r into 1:03:02.320 --> 1:03:05.760 the mailbox first thing every morning to make sure you 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:08.120 didn't get your brains beat in the day before. Yeah. 1:03:08.160 --> 1:03:09.680 Do you remember a time when one of those guys 1:03:09.680 --> 1:03:11.520 had a story and you were like, odd day, I 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:14.080 can't believe that. You know, it had to happen right 1:03:14.080 --> 1:03:17.600 over a couple of years. Yeah, listen, the biggest one. 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:20.520 I remember that, and I remember not sleeping for like 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:26.760 twenty four hours. Or Jalen Rose got bleusted at a 1:03:26.800 --> 1:03:31.880 crack house and I think Grigg Stoder broke that story 1:03:32.520 --> 1:03:35.160 and I had to chase that story for the next 1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:40.640 twenty four hours. Uh, yeah, that's that's one I remember 1:03:40.760 --> 1:03:44.680 very distinctly. So you're there two years, I think, right, 1:03:44.760 --> 1:03:47.840 So you're there and you said you sometimes got to 1:03:47.880 --> 1:03:52.560 write opinion columns. Did you recognize that your opinion columns 1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:57.479 were a strength of yours, like you're obviously the goal 1:03:57.520 --> 1:03:59.560 at that point in time for people who aren't familiar 1:03:59.600 --> 1:04:02.560 with the the newspaper kind of pecking order. The beat 1:04:02.600 --> 1:04:05.080 writers all want to be in the opinion business, right, 1:04:05.120 --> 1:04:07.000 and you have to work your way up too deep 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:09.640 all but a lot of them, a lot of them do, uh, 1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:11.560 And you have to work your way up typically to 1:04:11.680 --> 1:04:14.680 the opinion business. There's a seniority scale things like that. 1:04:15.040 --> 1:04:17.720 Was that a goal and aspiration of yours pretty concretely 1:04:17.720 --> 1:04:20.240 at that point in time? Yea. As soon as I 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:23.120 switched my major to journalism of ball State again, I 1:04:23.160 --> 1:04:25.280 wanted to be the micro roy Co of sports, and 1:04:25.320 --> 1:04:28.720 so that meant having a column and writing opinion pieces. 1:04:29.080 --> 1:04:32.680 And yes, as soon as the first column I wrote 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:37.880 in Aunt Harbor was uh, Elvis Grback had gotten heard 1:04:37.880 --> 1:04:41.840 at quarterback at Michigan and he had been replaced by 1:04:41.920 --> 1:04:45.840 Todd Collins, who played very well. And I wrote a 1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:50.440 column saying that Todd Collins should remain michigan starting quarterback. 1:04:51.280 --> 1:04:56.240 And as you got to remember the time, as mundane 1:04:56.280 --> 1:05:02.440 as that opinion sounds today, that's sounded like the hottest take, 1:05:03.040 --> 1:05:05.880 the most daring thing you could ever write in the 1:05:05.920 --> 1:05:09.360 history of newspapers. For someone to write that Todd Collins 1:05:09.520 --> 1:05:12.600 should replace Elvis go Back as the full top starter 1:05:12.680 --> 1:05:16.840 in Michigan, that was a really big deal. And that 1:05:17.880 --> 1:05:20.640 made the people in Ann Harbor have a big appetite 1:05:20.640 --> 1:05:25.320 for my column, and my column actually became like the steroid, 1:05:25.400 --> 1:05:30.160 the great equalizer. That's what made me competitive with the 1:05:30.160 --> 1:05:33.560 other beat writers is that one they didn't have the 1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:39.000 opportunity to write opinions, and two my opinions were really 1:05:39.080 --> 1:05:43.040 provocative and different than Mitch. Album was the king of 1:05:43.080 --> 1:05:46.640 colin writing, not just in Michigan but across the country 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:51.120 at that time. And Mitch didn't really delve into opinions. 1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:57.720 He wrote very flowery game stories that tried to evoke 1:05:57.760 --> 1:06:02.400 emotion or tried to reset the scene of what transpired. 1:06:02.760 --> 1:06:07.080 There was nobody really writing strong opinions and that market 1:06:07.120 --> 1:06:11.720 at that time, and that, um, you know, put med 1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:14.600 on equal footing with guys with far more experience in me. 1:06:14.920 --> 1:06:17.840 I should asked this question earlier. Do you remember the 1:06:17.880 --> 1:06:21.320 first time somebody came up to you and recognized you 1:06:21.440 --> 1:06:28.240 for something you wrote? Uh, that wouldn't have known you before, right, 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:30.680 I mean, obviously in the newspaper office they can say, hey, 1:06:30.720 --> 1:06:33.320 that's a great piece of work or whatever. But at 1:06:33.360 --> 1:06:35.800 what point do you remember or at what point did 1:06:35.840 --> 1:06:38.520 it begin to occur where people might come up to 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:40.560 you and say, hey, I read what you wrote and 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:42.360 have an opinion on it one way or the other. 1:06:45.760 --> 1:06:50.280 I I don't the strongest memory I have of that 1:06:50.480 --> 1:06:53.320 isn't a direct answer to your question. When I was 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:56.920 in Charlotte, I wrote one opinion piece and it was 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:00.600 mc hammer was coming to town and he was the 1:07:00.600 --> 1:07:03.400 biggest deal in rap music at that time, and I 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:06.080 wrote as I wrote a column saying mc hammer was 1:07:06.120 --> 1:07:09.120 a terrible rapper and started talking about all the rappers 1:07:09.120 --> 1:07:12.880 who were better than him, and the local radio station 1:07:12.920 --> 1:07:16.680 in Charlotte nearly had a heart attack and called me 1:07:16.720 --> 1:07:18.960 and had me on to interview me about the piece. 1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:21.800 And they just thought that I was a shiny Martian 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:23.800 from out of town. I can't believe this guy wrote 1:07:23.800 --> 1:07:27.919 this blah blah blah, And so that I remember that 1:07:28.080 --> 1:07:30.520 more so than anyone ever stopping me on the street 1:07:30.520 --> 1:07:33.080 and saying anything. What was the reaction that the first 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:35.080 time you really went on the interview for an opinion 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:37.040 piece that you had given the m C. That's actually 1:07:37.040 --> 1:07:39.160 really interesting. MC hammer is a bad rapper, which, by 1:07:39.160 --> 1:07:43.040 the way, you were correct. I don't think people right 1:07:43.040 --> 1:07:44.920 now are like, hey, who were the greatest rappers of 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:46.880 all time. I don't think there's ever been anybody who's like, 1:07:46.920 --> 1:07:51.400 I think it's mc hammer. It's just amazing that. Again, 1:07:51.480 --> 1:07:55.400 in newspapers back during that time, they had no one 1:07:55.600 --> 1:07:59.640 to write that, and that created such an opportunity for me, 1:08:00.680 --> 1:08:03.200 because rap was this really big gun. They had no 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.360 one on staff who could even remotely cover it. And 1:08:06.360 --> 1:08:08.080 so I can remember that just the reaction at the 1:08:08.120 --> 1:08:12.480 newspaper and people calling in the newspaper upset or like, man, 1:08:12.680 --> 1:08:14.720 I can't believe this guy wrote this, and then for 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:17.040 the radio station to call me an interview with me. 1:08:17.600 --> 1:08:20.600 It was. It was an amazing time to be a 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:24.400 black journalist with balls back then. All right, so we're 1:08:24.400 --> 1:08:26.679 gonna circle back around to this, but the Elvis Grback 1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:28.640 versus I think it was Todd Collins. I can't even 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:31.840 remember that that debate. After you write that column, you 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:36.160 walk into the Michigan Football Complex the next time after 1:08:36.280 --> 1:08:39.960 you've done it, could you feel the attention being different 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:42.080 than for other things that you had written before that, 1:08:42.840 --> 1:08:47.920 No question, I was radioactive, and it's like, again, people 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:50.840 didn't do that at that time. I mean, that was 1:08:50.880 --> 1:08:53.600 just like people who don't understand this is still a 1:08:53.600 --> 1:08:57.000 big deal. But like, you don't question in the hometown 1:08:57.200 --> 1:09:02.080 of the newspaper that aggressive very often, you know, sometimes 1:09:02.080 --> 1:09:05.240 you say like the beat writer has golden handcuffs, like yes, 1:09:05.280 --> 1:09:07.400 you're there, but you can't really go that far because 1:09:07.400 --> 1:09:09.320 you've got to show up every day and ask questions 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:11.720 and and your job is in some way predicated on 1:09:11.800 --> 1:09:17.439 access right, no question. But I've never been an access 1:09:17.479 --> 1:09:20.600 to journalist, even even though I would create something and 1:09:20.640 --> 1:09:24.080 again I went to Chris Webber's apartment Man Harbor and 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:29.240 had the ultimate access. But I've just never been that guy. 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:32.320 And and that's from it goes all the way back 1:09:32.400 --> 1:09:36.960 to my days as a kid Readeem Apple Star. I 1:09:37.040 --> 1:09:39.599 used to always be upset with the writers because I 1:09:39.680 --> 1:09:42.519 was like, Oh, these guys are writing these stories for 1:09:42.560 --> 1:09:45.639 the coaches and the players. They're not writing them for me, 1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:48.920 the reader. And that was one of the things that 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:51.280 when so as I switched my major to journalism, other 1:09:51.280 --> 1:09:53.639 than thinking about Mike Royko, was I was like, Oh, 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:56.680 I'm always going to write for the reader. Screw the 1:09:56.800 --> 1:10:02.320 athletes and screw the coaches. And so you know, I 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:05.080 can't remember all the things that I wrote that but 1:10:05.600 --> 1:10:09.120 Steve Fisher, the head coach of the Michigan basketball team. 1:10:09.320 --> 1:10:13.639 This dude couldn't stand the sight of me mad, So, 1:10:14.160 --> 1:10:18.960 I mean, he tried to manipulate everybody to dislike me 1:10:19.080 --> 1:10:22.599 and be afraid of me. Investment. So just imagine Steve 1:10:22.680 --> 1:10:27.880 Fisher whitlock is it Chris Webber's house playing video games? 1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:32.960 And I hate this guy, But those guys had to 1:10:33.000 --> 1:10:35.400 also trust you to bring you into the house and 1:10:35.439 --> 1:10:37.280 let you play video games with him, right, I mean 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:39.240 on some level, at least back in that time, in 1:10:40.400 --> 1:10:42.840 or whatever year that was, Chris Webber is not having 1:10:42.840 --> 1:10:44.760 a lot of other reporters. I bet over to play 1:10:44.840 --> 1:10:48.879 video games at his place. Yeah, No, he definitely trusted 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:51.800 me and definitely moved that. I didn't care that his 1:10:52.040 --> 1:10:57.000 he lived in this plush apartment, right, and I certainly 1:10:57.080 --> 1:10:59.439 wasn't there to write about how plush his apartment was 1:10:59.560 --> 1:11:04.519 or whatever. Uh, but yeah, there was a look, man, kids, 1:11:05.840 --> 1:11:10.679 young people are attracted to rebellion, and I was very 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:15.120 rebellious and I upset, you know, the teachers and the 1:11:15.640 --> 1:11:18.400 head coach, and so that's going to end up making 1:11:18.439 --> 1:11:22.080 me more attractive to the acts to the athlete. There's 1:11:22.120 --> 1:11:24.040 no doubt about that. All right, So you're at You're 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:27.599 at Michigan for two years, you're having success and your goal, 1:11:27.640 --> 1:11:30.439 as you said, since Mike Royko's columns, you decided when 1:11:30.439 --> 1:11:32.720 you were in college you wanted to do for for 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:36.360 sports what he did for sort of politics, general interest 1:11:36.360 --> 1:11:38.360 in the city of Chicago. I think it was right 1:11:38.439 --> 1:11:42.240 at the time. Um so how do you end up 1:11:42.320 --> 1:11:46.360 getting that first column? This job, the work that I 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:49.400 did in Ann Harbor and they reach out to you. 1:11:49.400 --> 1:11:51.800 You start getting requests from other people who are seeing 1:11:51.840 --> 1:11:54.559 your clippings. At that point in time, the Internet doesn't exist, 1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:57.400 so you get picked up in other newspapers. Your name 1:11:57.479 --> 1:11:59.640 kind of starts to grow a little bit circulate in 1:11:59.680 --> 1:12:02.360 journal is m circles, and you start to get inquiries 1:12:02.400 --> 1:12:07.880 from other newspapers. Not I can't look two years is 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:13.439 particularly back in that era, that's not a long time 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:19.479 on the radar. Yeah, And so I did do a 1:12:19.640 --> 1:12:21.800 lot of great work that got a lot of attention. 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:26.519 And again it's like, uh, Dick Bital would reference my 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:30.479 work while broadcasting a Michigan basketball game. All that kind 1:12:30.520 --> 1:12:33.640 of stuff is big in terms of raising your profile. 1:12:34.240 --> 1:12:38.200 But someone and you can't remember. My mother lived in 1:12:38.320 --> 1:12:43.960 Kansas City for a time being and someone, a friend 1:12:44.000 --> 1:12:47.080 in the newspaper business, said, hey, man, I heard they 1:12:47.120 --> 1:12:51.320 have a columnist opening in Kansas City. You should apply 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:56.240 for it. And again, because my mother had lived there 1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:58.840 for ten years, I was familiar with Kansas City. I 1:12:58.960 --> 1:13:02.519 applied for the comments job and sending my clips and 1:13:02.640 --> 1:13:09.080 a letter explaining and sure enough, you know the sports 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:13.000 are the knsee started dale By. He was looking for 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:17.160 a columnist who would come in and shake things up 1:13:17.840 --> 1:13:21.760 and kind of duplicate what I had done in ann Arbor. 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:24.760 Just come in and be an outspoken voice and a 1:13:24.760 --> 1:13:30.000 guy that was fearless. Uh. And so I probably sent 1:13:30.120 --> 1:13:33.400 him the letter and heard from him a week later. 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:36.920 They probably flew me out for an interview a week 1:13:36.960 --> 1:13:41.639 after that, and probably a week after that they offered 1:13:41.680 --> 1:13:45.680 me the job. How did you get the offer? I 1:13:45.840 --> 1:13:52.559 was at my dad's bar, the Masterpiece louds and uh, 1:13:52.880 --> 1:13:58.720 how that I'm trying. I must have picked up a 1:13:58.840 --> 1:14:04.040 voicemail off my home phone because I called dale Because 1:14:04.439 --> 1:14:09.559 I called dale By back from the Masterpiece lounge, and 1:14:09.840 --> 1:14:15.000 he offered me the job sixty five thousand dollars a year, 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:19.479 and I can remember shouting to my father's daddy, he 1:14:19.680 --> 1:14:21.439 just home for me a job at the Kansas City 1:14:21.479 --> 1:14:28.320 Start and it was I because I'm an asshole like this, 1:14:28.360 --> 1:14:30.120 and this is one of the most exciting days of 1:14:30.160 --> 1:14:32.720 my life because I'm just I am who I am. 1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:35.759 I remember I told dale By Man, I'm not paying 1:14:35.800 --> 1:14:40.600 me enough, but I'm gonna take this job anyway. And 1:14:40.840 --> 1:14:43.280 so you come back out tell your dad and he 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:48.600 says what we We have a celebratory drink at the 1:14:48.680 --> 1:14:54.200 Masterpiece Loungs and we just we just think I've died 1:14:54.240 --> 1:14:56.800 and gone to heaven. You know, his son is gonna 1:14:56.840 --> 1:14:59.240 be a columnist here you are. My dad's a big 1:14:59.280 --> 1:15:02.160 newspaper read Yeah, so I'm gonna be a columnist at 1:15:02.560 --> 1:15:06.360 seven years old. He's gonna make sixty five thousand dollars 1:15:06.880 --> 1:15:10.600 just doing will never ask me for another dime. I'm happy. 1:15:11.160 --> 1:15:15.840 So at this point in your life, your rise is 1:15:15.920 --> 1:15:19.200 like meteoric, right, because you have gone, in the space 1:15:19.280 --> 1:15:23.519 of roughly four or five years, from part time work 1:15:23.680 --> 1:15:28.960 at the Bloomington, Indiana newspaper to now becoming a columnist 1:15:29.080 --> 1:15:32.920 at a major newspaper in Kansas City. I mean that's 1:15:33.000 --> 1:15:34.720 unheard of. I mean, that is that media. I mean 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:37.280 for people out there who might not understand that rise, 1:15:38.000 --> 1:15:40.840 how would you classify it? How would you quantify it? 1:15:40.960 --> 1:15:43.280 Because the newspaper business is so much different now, A 1:15:43.280 --> 1:15:45.120 ton of people who are listening to us right now 1:15:45.520 --> 1:15:50.200 might not really understand that trajectory. Clay. In May of 1:15:50.439 --> 1:15:55.320 n I graduated from Ball State and I am legitimately 1:15:55.640 --> 1:15:59.800 unqualified for full time work in the newspaper business. For 1:16:00.200 --> 1:16:06.200 years later, I'm a highly qualified columnist for the Kansas 1:16:06.240 --> 1:16:11.759 City Start. It's you know, it's an unbelievable so many 1:16:11.800 --> 1:16:17.920 people Bob Hammel, Bill O'Connor, uh dale By, you know, 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:23.000 so many people to think who took a chance on me? 1:16:23.080 --> 1:16:27.559 And I worked really hard? Uh? Why am I thinking 1:16:27.600 --> 1:16:32.240 of Jeff Larkam, the ed pet of cabs. People took 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:35.320 a chance on me in Ann Harbor, and it's it's incredible. 1:16:35.320 --> 1:16:39.000 In four years again, I put a lot of work 1:16:39.040 --> 1:16:41.639 in and I didn't I don't think I did anything 1:16:41.720 --> 1:16:46.519 for four years other than work. Uh, but you know 1:16:46.640 --> 1:16:53.799 it paid off. And so from May nine to September. Uh, 1:16:53.960 --> 1:16:57.000 that's a hell of a run. And you know, I 1:16:57.040 --> 1:17:00.720 get to Kansas City in It's like I'm going to 1:17:00.760 --> 1:17:04.240 get to live out my dream of being the microy 1:17:04.320 --> 1:17:08.680 Cole Sports A year in is I mean, did you 1:17:08.720 --> 1:17:12.960 think that's like that's like unbelievable money. I thought I 1:17:13.000 --> 1:17:18.200 was under paid, just like I told Bill By so Uh. 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:23.200 I again, I came there supremely confident. And it's because 1:17:23.880 --> 1:17:26.759 the two years of what I had done in ann Arbor, 1:17:28.000 --> 1:17:30.240 I really know. I just said, Oh, if I just 1:17:30.280 --> 1:17:33.240 do this all over again, I'm going the results are 1:17:33.240 --> 1:17:39.799 going to be incredible and and literally I think so. Yeah. September, 1:17:41.080 --> 1:17:45.559 in April of nine, they called me in at the 1:17:45.640 --> 1:17:50.559 Kansas City Star and said, hey, man, we've made a mistake. Uh, 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:53.320 we want to pay you a hundred thousand dollars and 1:17:53.360 --> 1:17:55.559 we're gonna pay you a hundred twenty five thousand dollars 1:17:55.600 --> 1:17:58.400 in next year and a hundred and fifty year after that, 1:17:59.200 --> 1:18:01.800 and that I didn't ask for it. I didn't know 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:03.479 they're want to do it. They just brought me into 1:18:03.560 --> 1:18:08.720 the office. But from September until April nine, I just 1:18:08.920 --> 1:18:13.560 I questioned. I mean, I just I just I questioned. 1:18:13.600 --> 1:18:18.000 I set that city on absolute fire, writing about primarily 1:18:18.040 --> 1:18:25.559 the Kansas City Chiefs, the Chiefs, the Royals, the Kansas City, Kent, 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:31.240 University of Kansas basketball and football, uh, Kansas State, and 1:18:31.280 --> 1:18:34.559 the University of Missouri. So by set it on fire 1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:36.880 for people out there who don't understand, like you're writing 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:40.280 calling how many days a week that time four or 1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:46.000 five a week and and I mean it's I'm like, 1:18:46.360 --> 1:18:50.679 it's it's like a machine man every day. I'm again, 1:18:50.720 --> 1:18:54.400 you gotta understand how sleepy that market was and just 1:18:54.439 --> 1:18:58.479 how sleepy the newspaper business was for the most part. 1:18:59.240 --> 1:19:04.720 And it just they just hadn't seen anything like that. 1:19:05.040 --> 1:19:15.040 And uh, it was funny stuff, serious stuff, uh, football 1:19:15.160 --> 1:19:20.960 questioning things. Uh it was you know, it's funny. People 1:19:21.080 --> 1:19:23.679 sit up and and say, oh man, you're really hard 1:19:23.720 --> 1:19:28.280 on the Brian James And I just amaged Carl Peterson, 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:33.040 the general manager of the Cannessee Chiefs. He has to 1:19:33.080 --> 1:19:37.479 be laughing. He's like, because I was so hard on 1:19:37.520 --> 1:19:43.599 this dude and and crushed him just repeatedly. And now 1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:46.759 I would also praise him when good things happen. But 1:19:47.479 --> 1:19:50.040 it's like I laughed at people to think like I'm 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:53.760 hard and critical of Lebron James. They should go ask 1:19:53.800 --> 1:19:58.920 Carl Peterson, Marty Shot and Hiro what I did to them, 1:19:58.040 --> 1:20:02.639 and it's but and again not in in my view, 1:20:02.760 --> 1:20:05.559 an unfair way, not in a malicious way. I had 1:20:05.600 --> 1:20:10.080 respect for those guys, and they were really good at 1:20:10.080 --> 1:20:12.840 what they were doing. But like everybody, you know, they 1:20:12.880 --> 1:20:17.800 make mistakes and I was there to pound. So you 1:20:17.880 --> 1:20:21.439 are driving, I'm assuming almost entirely at this point in time, 1:20:21.520 --> 1:20:24.920 the conversation among sports fans through your column in the 1:20:25.000 --> 1:20:28.800 Kansas City Star, what is your what? What is your 1:20:28.800 --> 1:20:30.840 approval rating in the city at that time, because a 1:20:30.880 --> 1:20:34.320 lot of times columns, you know, fifty degree disagree. That's 1:20:34.400 --> 1:20:38.400 literally the job, it's to be strongly opinionated. Were people 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:41.719 favorable in reacting to you in the city of Kansas City? 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:44.320 What did other people think of you? What was your 1:20:44.320 --> 1:20:50.400 existence like in that city at that time? It was awesome? Uh, look, 1:20:50.479 --> 1:20:53.080 I can't There were a lot of people that had 1:20:53.200 --> 1:20:58.200 strong negative reactions to my opinion, but there were just 1:20:58.400 --> 1:21:02.439 as many people that absolutely loved it. And even the 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:07.400 people that disagreed with me, I think just enjoyed the process, like, 1:21:08.080 --> 1:21:12.800 holy cow, what's we're not gonna say tomorrow morning? And 1:21:13.640 --> 1:21:16.160 it became an event to go get the newspaper to 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:18.880 see what you were gonna be talking about at work 1:21:18.920 --> 1:21:24.080 the next day. And particularly like the Chiefs games really 1:21:24.200 --> 1:21:28.280 didn't end until the next morning until you had read 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:33.240 my column on them. And uh you know, I was 1:21:33.680 --> 1:21:38.040 hugely popular in Kansas City. Uh you know. We started 1:21:38.080 --> 1:21:43.280 having events two for me to meet readers the interact 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:47.000 with me. Uh you know, me and the Star started 1:21:47.000 --> 1:21:49.879 putting them on where you could win a lunch with Whitlock, 1:21:49.920 --> 1:21:52.960 where I would take thirty forty readers at a time 1:21:52.960 --> 1:21:56.880 out to lunch and just converse with him. Uh you know, 1:21:57.320 --> 1:22:00.240 I was, for lack of a better describe, was a 1:22:00.360 --> 1:22:03.479 rock star in Kansas City. And you know, yes, we're 1:22:03.479 --> 1:22:07.200 there people there that you know couldn't stand me, absolutely, 1:22:07.200 --> 1:22:12.400 particularly if you were someone in power who didn't want 1:22:12.439 --> 1:22:15.840 to be questioned. Yeah, you didn't like me. But if 1:22:16.000 --> 1:22:18.479 you know, a lot of people there, the mayor Manuel 1:22:18.560 --> 1:22:23.479 Cleaver there was awesome to me. Uh mentord me while 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:27.439 I was there. Ali Gates the Barbecue Barn, mentord me 1:22:27.560 --> 1:22:33.320 while I was there. Uh Buck O'Neill, the Negro Luis 1:22:33.400 --> 1:22:37.040 baseball star mentord me while I was there. And we 1:22:37.120 --> 1:22:41.720 had a new Mayor Kay Barnes, very good friend of mine. Everybody. 1:22:41.800 --> 1:22:43.680 I used to throw a Christmas party every year. I 1:22:43.720 --> 1:22:47.000 bring my mother in and we cooked for everybody. And 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:50.720 it started out it was in this condo I had, 1:22:50.880 --> 1:22:54.000 and it started out it was like people. By the 1:22:54.160 --> 1:22:58.799 end of it, fifteen years later, it was six hundred 1:22:58.840 --> 1:23:03.720 people at at the eighteenth and Vine Jazz District, at 1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:07.040 some restaurant where I'm feed and drinking. Six hundred people 1:23:07.320 --> 1:23:11.479 at Christmas. It was you know, it was a great time. 1:23:11.520 --> 1:23:14.800 I loved my time in Kansas City. So are you 1:23:14.880 --> 1:23:17.360 going to basically every game? You're going to all the 1:23:17.439 --> 1:23:20.040 Royals games yourself? You're a columnist, Now are you writing 1:23:20.040 --> 1:23:23.759 those columns inside of the inside of the press box? 1:23:23.920 --> 1:23:28.320 Primarily I'm going to every Chiefs game. I'm going to 1:23:29.960 --> 1:23:34.840 twenty Royals games a year. Look, I'm just gonna not 1:23:34.960 --> 1:23:38.479 the most passionate Royals fan or baseball fan. I'm sorry. 1:23:38.920 --> 1:23:42.639 And then too, and you would have to have been 1:23:42.680 --> 1:23:47.080 in Kansas City at this time. I was too rough 1:23:47.600 --> 1:23:50.719 for the Kansas City Royals at that time in terms 1:23:50.800 --> 1:23:54.160 of the Kandascy Royals. For about the first ten years 1:23:54.200 --> 1:23:59.400 I was there. Euen Kaufman had passed away and a 1:23:59.560 --> 1:24:03.880 trust fun was running the Kansas City Royals. Didn't have 1:24:03.960 --> 1:24:09.439 a lot of money, and my criticism. You almost had 1:24:09.479 --> 1:24:12.679 to treat the Royals like a charity, and they couldn't 1:24:12.760 --> 1:24:19.160 handle my level of criticism. And so I stood back 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:23.000 and didn't do as much with the Royals as I 1:24:23.000 --> 1:24:27.360 could have. And then after about two years uh me 1:24:27.439 --> 1:24:30.760 being in Kansas City, I think in nine seven or so, 1:24:31.560 --> 1:24:36.280 the Star hired Joe poz Nancy as another columnist, huge 1:24:36.400 --> 1:24:42.120 baseball fan and expert, and I kind of let him 1:24:42.280 --> 1:24:46.519 be the Royals guy. Uh and I would again. But 1:24:46.760 --> 1:24:49.680 my last three or four years in Kansas City, I 1:24:49.840 --> 1:24:55.160 probably went to ten Royals games a year. Uh. But 1:24:56.600 --> 1:24:59.519 you know that I just I stayed. You just couldn't 1:24:59.520 --> 1:25:02.880 be as former world that they were treated like some 1:25:03.000 --> 1:25:07.400 little charity organization. If you said anything too serious, everybody 1:25:07.400 --> 1:25:10.360 go winding and crying to the editor and there's up there. 1:25:10.600 --> 1:25:16.560 But so so what I went to all the Chief's games, 1:25:17.000 --> 1:25:21.120 all the big Kansas basketball games, any of the colleges 1:25:21.200 --> 1:25:23.439 they played. I went to a college football game pretty 1:25:23.520 --> 1:25:28.000 much every weekend. Uh. You know that you went to 1:25:28.040 --> 1:25:33.400 the Chief's practices you know everything face to face. I'm 1:25:33.400 --> 1:25:35.360 curious on the process of writing. You get to go 1:25:35.400 --> 1:25:37.639 on the road, you're everywhere else. Did you have a pager? 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:40.320 Did you have a beeper? Like? There aren't cell phones 1:25:40.439 --> 1:25:42.200 for the early part of your career, How did you 1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:48.760 get in touch with people? Oh? I think and we 1:25:48.880 --> 1:25:51.240 may have to hop on the internet, but I think 1:25:52.200 --> 1:25:58.800 by ninety four, I do think cell phones are out 1:25:58.880 --> 1:26:02.920 there and available. But when you're covering the the Fab five, 1:26:03.000 --> 1:26:04.679 did they have cell phones? I'm trying to I didn't 1:26:04.680 --> 1:26:08.200 get my first cell phone at all, not the Fab five, 1:26:08.280 --> 1:26:13.000 But I do think by the time I'm in Kansas City, Yeah, 1:26:13.080 --> 1:26:16.599 I do think I'm having a cell phone. And you're 1:26:16.600 --> 1:26:19.760 communicating a lot over cell phone, all right, so, uh 1:26:19.800 --> 1:26:23.240 the Internet doesn't still exist. Then. All of this so 1:26:23.280 --> 1:26:25.519 far has been about the impact that you can have 1:26:25.720 --> 1:26:28.919 as a part of the written word, other than the 1:26:29.040 --> 1:26:33.880 MC hammer on the radio rap rap discussion. When did 1:26:33.960 --> 1:26:37.280 you start breaking in with radio? And do you remember 1:26:37.320 --> 1:26:42.280 the first time you did it consistently? And what about TV? Well, 1:26:42.320 --> 1:26:47.320 as soon as I got to Kansas City, Uh, you 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:50.559 know we had sports talk radio there. Yeah. We had 1:26:50.600 --> 1:26:56.360 some old guy, uh named Don Fortune, who was, you know, 1:26:56.680 --> 1:27:01.520 fit the sleepy town uh as much as the newspaper 1:27:01.560 --> 1:27:05.080 did at that time. And so Don Fortune had an 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:10.120 instant reaction to me, an instant negative reaction to me. 1:27:10.680 --> 1:27:15.000 And he did the daily sports talk radio show, three 1:27:15.000 --> 1:27:20.559 hour talk show drive time in the afternoon. And it 1:27:20.680 --> 1:27:25.000 was probably the third column I'd written in Kansas cy 1:27:25.040 --> 1:27:28.320 second or third column I'd written in Kansas City, and 1:27:29.560 --> 1:27:36.040 it was it was am a comedic column about mocking 1:27:36.680 --> 1:27:42.400 Kansas and Kandas State football were playing in a ESPN 1:27:42.439 --> 1:27:45.519 football game that was gonna be televised on ESPN and 1:27:45.960 --> 1:27:49.240 Kanada State may have been ranked twenty three four in 1:27:49.240 --> 1:27:55.479 the country or whatever, and this is in this is 1:27:55.680 --> 1:28:00.799 right win Bill Snyder in Kanda State football are really 1:28:00.880 --> 1:28:03.600 starting to elevate their quarterbacks some kid I think the 1:28:03.680 --> 1:28:07.240 named Chad May at the time. And so I wrote 1:28:07.240 --> 1:28:11.640 a piece, uh talking about kind of sarcastically saying what 1:28:11.760 --> 1:28:15.760 a big deal this game is that? Uh, you know, 1:28:16.960 --> 1:28:19.799 Kanada State fans are gonna put on their best clothes 1:28:19.880 --> 1:28:24.400 tonight and you know, belt buckles, little be twelve ins. 1:28:24.760 --> 1:28:28.120 It was just something just mocking them as country and 1:28:28.200 --> 1:28:31.519 hill billy and you know, Kansas is kind of the 1:28:31.560 --> 1:28:35.479 elitied school, and it was mocking them as elite and 1:28:35.960 --> 1:28:39.080 the I'm not doing it justice. It was a hysterical piece. 1:28:40.000 --> 1:28:44.280 Don Fortune acted like it was the worst thing in 1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:47.440 the world. And how dare The Kansas City Star published 1:28:47.439 --> 1:28:50.240 this and he called me to have me on his 1:28:50.680 --> 1:28:53.320 no no, no, I was driving to the game. I 1:28:53.439 --> 1:28:55.880 take it back, and I'm listening to this guy on 1:28:56.080 --> 1:28:58.200 radio blast me and I can't believe the Star and 1:28:58.280 --> 1:29:01.519 published this, and so I called into the guy's radio 1:29:01.600 --> 1:29:05.880 show as he's land basting me, and we had a 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:16.720 big on air argument. Uh uh yeah. And so that 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:21.440 started a rivalry between me and the Don Fortune guy. 1:29:21.760 --> 1:29:26.519 And then that started some young people and younger people 1:29:26.560 --> 1:29:29.320 in Kansas City to say, man, we need a competing 1:29:30.280 --> 1:29:35.320 radio station to this Don Fortune. And a guy named 1:29:35.400 --> 1:29:39.680 Chad Bolger and Kevin Keatsman, I would say, within a 1:29:39.760 --> 1:29:47.160 year or two launched some little small signal competition to 1:29:47.240 --> 1:29:51.320 this Don Fortune fifth I think it's called a m 1:29:52.360 --> 1:29:56.080 and they started doing an afternoon show to compete against 1:29:56.160 --> 1:29:59.600 Don Fortune, and that I think the next move was 1:29:59.680 --> 1:30:03.000 high me to do a morning show on that station, 1:30:03.400 --> 1:30:07.960 and so we ended up building this fifteen ten into 1:30:08.000 --> 1:30:12.440 a competition for this Don Fortune who worked for Intercom, 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:16.920 the national syndicate Intercom Radio that's all over the country. 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:20.640 We started competing against them, and then that turned into 1:30:20.840 --> 1:30:24.600 another station that they acquired, and Kansas City ended up 1:30:24.640 --> 1:30:29.400 being a city that had two competing radio stations, and 1:30:29.439 --> 1:30:33.679 I think eventually they fired the Don Fortune and basically 1:30:33.840 --> 1:30:37.759 and then hired me to go over and compete against 1:30:37.760 --> 1:30:43.920 the station that I had helped create. Uh so, yeah, 1:30:44.000 --> 1:30:46.400 I was a part of the launch of sports talk 1:30:46.520 --> 1:30:50.519 radio in Kansas City. Hopped in it with both feet. 1:30:51.000 --> 1:30:54.439 Continue to write my column do the Radio Deal? How 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:56.599 how many hours were you on a day on radio? 1:30:56.640 --> 1:30:58.320 When you started? You said you were on in the morning. 1:30:58.320 --> 1:31:02.280 Were you on every day? Yeah, Monday through Friday. It 1:31:02.400 --> 1:31:05.880 was a three hour radio show, six to nine to 1:31:06.000 --> 1:31:10.160 ten or six six to nine him. Were you hosting 1:31:10.200 --> 1:31:14.360 it by yourself? Initially started off doing it with a 1:31:14.400 --> 1:31:18.360 guy named Chad Boger, the guy who helped lost the station, 1:31:18.880 --> 1:31:22.240 and then eventually it turned into Jason Whitlocks neighborhood and 1:31:22.240 --> 1:31:25.639 I hosted it myself. Fox Sports Radio has the best 1:31:25.640 --> 1:31:28.479 sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our 1:31:28.520 --> 1:31:32.000 shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:35.160 I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live. 1:31:35.520 --> 1:31:39.040 The Wins and Losses podcast with Clay Travis continues with 1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:42.599 special guest Jason Whitlock. Al Right, so you've never done 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:45.640 any radio you know that that I'm aware of, at 1:31:45.720 --> 1:31:49.040 least other than being a guest. How much different was 1:31:49.120 --> 1:31:52.360 doing radio? Did it help your column? Hurt it? What 1:31:52.400 --> 1:31:58.200 did you find as you expanded into a new medium? Uh? 1:31:58.479 --> 1:32:02.400 Help her? Hurt my cow them? I think to be 1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:05.400 a thousand for said artists. The only thing I could 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:09.080 say is that it would hurt my column because again, 1:32:09.120 --> 1:32:11.880 at six to nine in the morning when I started out, 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:16.000 and I'm still going to sporting events that ended night 1:32:16.080 --> 1:32:21.160 and waking up and so it's just a lot of work. Uh. 1:32:21.200 --> 1:32:26.400 But it did help elevate my profile. People freaking love 1:32:27.240 --> 1:32:30.040 reading my column in the morning and then tune it 1:32:30.040 --> 1:32:33.519 in my radio station the radio show to tell me 1:32:33.560 --> 1:32:36.280 what they thought of my column. And so I think 1:32:36.360 --> 1:32:42.440 it overall helped me and you know, the Jason Whitlock brand, overall, 1:32:43.160 --> 1:32:48.000 I think it was good for that. Uh. But you know, 1:32:48.040 --> 1:32:51.240 and again I did talk radio in Kansas City. I 1:32:51.280 --> 1:32:56.880 think for eight years, and I eventually got out because 1:32:57.280 --> 1:33:00.680 I and I moved to afternoons with was better for 1:33:00.760 --> 1:33:05.920 my life. But I eventually decided that it hurts my 1:33:06.040 --> 1:33:09.559 number one passion and that was sports writing, and I 1:33:09.640 --> 1:33:13.519 felt like if I doubted back and just focus more. 1:33:13.600 --> 1:33:16.200 And you gotta remember, by this time, I think I'm 1:33:16.200 --> 1:33:19.760 writing a column for ESPN dot com, I'm appearing on 1:33:19.800 --> 1:33:26.679 the Sports Reporters, and I just think that local radio, Uh, 1:33:26.720 --> 1:33:28.640 for the amount of money they were paying me, they 1:33:28.640 --> 1:33:32.000 were paying me relatively well. But I just felt like 1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:35.519 if I focused on the writing, I would eventually make 1:33:35.560 --> 1:33:39.280 back up the money. So again, the rise continues to 1:33:39.280 --> 1:33:43.040 be pretty pretty astounding. Um, when did you go on 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:45.200 television for the first time? So you're good at right? 1:33:45.280 --> 1:33:47.759 First of all, let me just say this. It's rare 1:33:47.880 --> 1:33:51.160 that people who are good at writing are also good 1:33:51.200 --> 1:33:54.639 at radio. And it's rarer still that people who are 1:33:54.720 --> 1:33:57.920 good at writing and good at radio are also good 1:33:57.960 --> 1:34:01.000 at TV. You're good at all three, but you don't 1:34:01.000 --> 1:34:03.240 really know if you're any good at TV until you 1:34:03.280 --> 1:34:06.360 get to do it. When did you start to do television? 1:34:06.439 --> 1:34:10.519 How did you get your first opportunity? I think my 1:34:10.560 --> 1:34:14.160 first opportunity came right there locally in Kansas City. I 1:34:14.320 --> 1:34:19.360 can't remember the year, but the ABC affiliate had me 1:34:19.520 --> 1:34:26.559 come on and do sixty ninety second commentaries. Uh, in 1:34:26.640 --> 1:34:30.920 their sportscast. Why did you write it and then tape it? Like? 1:34:30.960 --> 1:34:34.920 Did you get that? Howe written? I would write it, 1:34:35.240 --> 1:34:38.639 then we tape it, then it would air later that day. 1:34:39.000 --> 1:34:43.719 Did it once a week, Uh, And wasn't very good 1:34:43.760 --> 1:34:48.120 at it, just to be quite honest. Starting out, I couldn't. 1:34:49.080 --> 1:34:53.000 I couldn't master it. But again it was a training ground. 1:34:53.080 --> 1:34:56.759 So I probably did it for a year the station, 1:34:56.880 --> 1:35:01.120 and then I became a bit inconsistent because again I 1:35:01.160 --> 1:35:03.600 was doing radio at the time. I was doing my 1:35:03.800 --> 1:35:07.080 Kndasee Star. I was doing this writing for ESPN dot com, 1:35:07.120 --> 1:35:10.599 and I was appearing on the Sports Reporters, and my 1:35:10.760 --> 1:35:14.760 delivery of it for the local station became inconsistent and 1:35:14.800 --> 1:35:19.160 we just decided to end it. But it did doing that. 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:23.480 I did that probably for about ten months, right before 1:35:24.240 --> 1:35:27.879 I started appearing on the Sports reporters in two thousands. 1:35:28.120 --> 1:35:32.639 How did you get the invite to do the sports reporters? Uh? 1:35:32.960 --> 1:35:38.280 Jeremy Schap, Dick Shap's son, was a fan of my 1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:43.679 column in Kansas City and told his dad that, hey, 1:35:43.720 --> 1:35:46.560 you guys should have Jason Whitlock on the sports reporters 1:35:47.720 --> 1:35:54.120 UH and so that, and you know, Mike Luprica. I 1:35:54.160 --> 1:35:58.120 think if I didn't say this, will will be upset 1:35:58.160 --> 1:36:00.639 because he likes to take credit. He like to say 1:36:00.880 --> 1:36:05.160 he was the person that UH invited me to come 1:36:05.160 --> 1:36:07.160 on to sports reporters. And I'm sure he had something 1:36:07.160 --> 1:36:10.679 to do and he had to approve everything UH into 1:36:10.920 --> 1:36:13.720 in some capacity because he had that kind of relationship 1:36:13.760 --> 1:36:18.639 with the producer Joe Valerio. But it was Jeremy Shapp 1:36:18.680 --> 1:36:21.160 telling his dad that I would be a good fit 1:36:21.200 --> 1:36:24.040 on the sports reporters for people who aren't familiar. And 1:36:24.080 --> 1:36:25.759 I think there will be a lot of people listening 1:36:25.920 --> 1:36:29.080 right now with the sports reporters. What was it? Why 1:36:29.160 --> 1:36:33.559 was that significant? Well, the sports reporters at that time, 1:36:34.800 --> 1:36:42.680 UH was the premier thing a sportswriter could do. It 1:36:43.360 --> 1:36:46.800 Only the best of the very best got to be 1:36:46.840 --> 1:36:49.920 on the sports reporters at that time. There there weren't 1:36:49.920 --> 1:36:53.479 all these There was no part in the interruption, There 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:58.040 was no first take, there was no undisputed there was nothing. 1:36:58.080 --> 1:37:02.720 There was the Sports Reporters and Mike Luprica was on it, 1:37:02.920 --> 1:37:08.000 Bob Ryan was on that, Mitch Album was on it. Uh, 1:37:08.320 --> 1:37:13.040 you had Tony corn Hiser, Mike Wilbon. It was the 1:37:13.120 --> 1:37:17.719 place for the premier sports journalists in America to talk 1:37:17.800 --> 1:37:21.640 on TV about sports. If you got invited onto the 1:37:21.680 --> 1:37:25.280 Sports Reporters, that was that was a signal like, oh 1:37:25.360 --> 1:37:27.320 my god, this guy is one of the best sports 1:37:27.320 --> 1:37:31.799 writers in the country. And for me in nineteen ninety 1:37:31.960 --> 1:37:34.719 or in two thousand, I think I'm thirty years old 1:37:34.760 --> 1:37:39.000 at the time, or uh is everyone around thirty two, 1:37:39.040 --> 1:37:42.360 thirty three years old at the time, And to get 1:37:42.400 --> 1:37:46.280 invited to particularly be from in the city, because everybody 1:37:46.320 --> 1:37:50.400 on that show was from the East Coast basically except 1:37:50.400 --> 1:37:53.160 for Mitch Album, who was at the Detroit Free Press. 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:56.040 And so for them to get someone from the Midwest 1:37:56.080 --> 1:37:59.680 to come on that show, uh that was a Mitch album. 1:37:59.680 --> 1:38:07.200 It was just a very big deal. Uh Yeah, I was. 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:12.400 You know, when I started out, I was good. Five 1:38:12.479 --> 1:38:17.040 years later I was great. I was. To be honest, 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:19.560 I was actually too good. And that's what got me 1:38:19.600 --> 1:38:23.720 a cross ways with uh Mike Lupaca and basically got 1:38:23.760 --> 1:38:26.719 me run off the show. It's you know, Mike Luprica 1:38:26.960 --> 1:38:29.200 is the star of that show, or was the star 1:38:29.280 --> 1:38:34.599 of that show, and you know he Mike disagreed with 1:38:34.640 --> 1:38:39.840 my narrative on steroids, and because you know, they wanted 1:38:39.880 --> 1:38:44.439 to demonize Barry. Mike wanted to demonize Barry Bonds as 1:38:44.479 --> 1:38:47.200 if he was the only athlete in the world on 1:38:47.360 --> 1:38:50.160 steroids and if we just routed him out, you know. 1:38:50.320 --> 1:38:52.600 And my narrative was like, no, no, no, no, you 1:38:52.600 --> 1:38:56.800 guys are missed freeding this. If there's money involved, all 1:38:56.840 --> 1:39:00.920 these guys will use steroids. Then it ain't just very 1:39:01.000 --> 1:39:06.479 violnes it's pervasive. And as things started playing out as 1:39:07.160 --> 1:39:12.559 what was the cyclist landing Donovan, No, no, that Lansam 1:39:12.640 --> 1:39:17.120 from the other guys before him, the side before Lance 1:39:17.200 --> 1:39:20.320 Armstrong got busted, there was another guy that got busted. 1:39:20.680 --> 1:39:24.240 I don't even remember that guy. Yeah, even if I'm gonna, 1:39:24.280 --> 1:39:26.000 I'm gonna look it up at as we talked, but 1:39:27.280 --> 1:39:30.160 he got busted. Then it just started becoming all these 1:39:30.200 --> 1:39:33.240 different athletes and other sports and it became crystal clear 1:39:33.320 --> 1:39:39.040 like my narrative was right. That irritated Lupaca and uh, 1:39:39.280 --> 1:39:45.320 we had a big confrontation on my final episode of 1:39:45.320 --> 1:39:49.200 of of the Sports Reporters and this is on air 1:39:49.240 --> 1:39:52.759 your confrontation, and Joe Valerio told me to go f myself. 1:39:53.560 --> 1:39:57.599 Was it on air, the conversation, the blow up, Yes, 1:39:58.120 --> 1:40:02.480 oh yeah, it was everything. It was. It was steroid 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:11.920 related and Mike said something about, well, it's all just 1:40:12.040 --> 1:40:15.800 the w W E or whatever, and then and I 1:40:15.840 --> 1:40:18.840 was like, hey, man, I said something about, you know, 1:40:19.000 --> 1:40:24.280 the E and ESPN stands for entertainment and so at 1:40:24.320 --> 1:40:27.080 the end of the day, that's all this is. It's 1:40:27.360 --> 1:40:30.800 and again it's it's my narrative hasn't changed. And you know, 1:40:30.840 --> 1:40:33.880 I keep saying on speak for yourself, it's all just 1:40:33.920 --> 1:40:38.040 a television show, and I go, that's what money has 1:40:38.120 --> 1:40:41.840 done to all of these sports, and you're applying all 1:40:41.880 --> 1:40:46.320 of this integrity and all this other thing. It's just 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:51.840 a television show. But yeah, we had a pretty It 1:40:51.960 --> 1:40:56.080 was a great conversation, to be honest, and it was 1:40:56.160 --> 1:41:00.960 fascinating TV. And I remember the Pete, Jim Cohen and 1:41:01.000 --> 1:41:03.600 other people with ESPN like man, that was one of 1:41:03.600 --> 1:41:07.080 the greatest moments on The Sports Reporters. That was great TV. 1:41:07.680 --> 1:41:09.880 And I was like, oh, I agree with you, I go, 1:41:09.960 --> 1:41:13.160 but that ain't the way Mike Lubrica and Joe Valerio 1:41:13.280 --> 1:41:18.439 see it. They're done with me. And you know I 1:41:18.520 --> 1:41:21.920 was right again, it just at that time it did 1:41:22.000 --> 1:41:26.439 not pay to uh disagree with Mike Lubrica on TV, 1:41:26.600 --> 1:41:28.640 so they tell you to go fund yourself. Do you 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:33.240 have any relationship with them at all? Now? No? Uh, 1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:37.280 since that conversation thirteen or fifteen or whatever it was 1:41:37.400 --> 1:41:41.920 years ago, you guys basically just ended your relationship. Yes, 1:41:42.320 --> 1:41:45.120 I've I've certainly. You know, I reached out to Joe 1:41:45.160 --> 1:41:49.160 Valerio at the time and he was all upset and 1:41:49.200 --> 1:41:52.599 never you know, hadn't spoken to me since, and uh, 1:41:52.760 --> 1:41:57.320 Lubrica made it quite clear that you know, I was disloyal. 1:41:57.439 --> 1:42:00.360 And look, I don't want a bad Mountain Mike lub 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:04.559 because everybody knows what Mike is and what he's been 1:42:05.160 --> 1:42:07.519 and but but I do want to just be facts. 1:42:07.640 --> 1:42:10.120 I mean, there were times on that show. Anybody that's 1:42:10.120 --> 1:42:13.000 been on there could tell you, like, if Mike had 1:42:13.040 --> 1:42:16.639 a segment where he didn't look the best, he would 1:42:16.680 --> 1:42:20.040 just make you redo the segment because the show was taped. 1:42:21.560 --> 1:42:26.200 So I just didn't read all the bad signals in 1:42:26.320 --> 1:42:31.080 terms of and again I was deferential with Mike and 1:42:31.120 --> 1:42:34.479 all these guys that are older than me to a point, 1:42:35.400 --> 1:42:37.800 but I was not going to a being in my 1:42:37.960 --> 1:42:41.000 opinion that hey, look we're making a mistake trying to 1:42:41.000 --> 1:42:45.320 single Barry Bonds out here. This steroid thing goes well 1:42:45.400 --> 1:42:47.960 beyond Barry Bonds. And I just wouldn't back off that point. 1:42:48.000 --> 1:42:50.360 Mike wanted me to. He wanted that to be the 1:42:50.400 --> 1:42:53.040 point of view of the show. And you know that 1:42:53.120 --> 1:42:55.439 cost me my spot on the Sports Reporters And that 1:42:55.439 --> 1:42:59.880 would have been what what year, roughly two thousand five 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:02.600 over six And that show was once a week on 1:43:02.640 --> 1:43:05.480 a Sunday. Is that right? Once a week on a Sundays. 1:43:05.840 --> 1:43:09.120 And then so it gets uh, you're off television then, 1:43:09.400 --> 1:43:11.880 and you're off radio, I'm assuming by this point too. 1:43:12.360 --> 1:43:14.960 So you just plug yourself back in full time to 1:43:15.080 --> 1:43:20.479 the newspaper writing business in the newspaper. Uh. At that time, 1:43:20.520 --> 1:43:25.360 I'm still doing ESPN dot com. But shortly after my 1:43:25.479 --> 1:43:29.519 blow up with Mike and and those guys is when 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:34.280 I did the interview with the Big lead that ended 1:43:34.439 --> 1:43:38.640 my initial relationship with ESPN dot com. I'm writing for 1:43:38.720 --> 1:43:44.120 page two and how did you page two? A guy 1:43:44.200 --> 1:43:48.320 named Meal Scarborough was the editor of ESPN dot com 1:43:48.360 --> 1:43:53.160 at that time, and he hired me, uh to write 1:43:53.200 --> 1:43:57.960 for page two. I would say in N. I can't 1:43:58.000 --> 1:44:00.680 remember the exact day, but that's a huge collection of 1:44:00.800 --> 1:44:02.800 talent they have at the time, right because they got 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:06.080 Hunter S. Thompson, They've got to I mean they had 1:44:06.080 --> 1:44:11.800 a wiley. Yeah. That was that was And that was 1:44:12.000 --> 1:44:17.519 me recognizing that the Internet was going to be a factor. 1:44:17.840 --> 1:44:20.800 Do you remember a time when you recognize suddenly, wait 1:44:20.840 --> 1:44:23.400 a minute, the Internet is gonna matter? Was there, Aha, 1:44:23.560 --> 1:44:30.280 crystal ball moment for you? Not really, I just knew 1:44:31.479 --> 1:44:34.759 that I saw very all men, this pays two things. 1:44:35.760 --> 1:44:39.080 It's kind of cool and if you want to be 1:44:39.120 --> 1:44:43.240 a player, you need to be in that lane. And 1:44:43.960 --> 1:44:46.400 look at the freedom and the ability to talk about 1:44:46.520 --> 1:44:52.760 national issues and blah blah blah. And and already by 1:44:52.840 --> 1:44:59.360 newspaper by then was already doing what newspapers do that 1:44:59.520 --> 1:45:03.160 they just start fighting creativity and just want to be 1:45:03.240 --> 1:45:06.760 safer and safer and safer. And so I could already 1:45:07.000 --> 1:45:10.280 feel at my newspaper they had already I used to 1:45:10.360 --> 1:45:15.880 write these hilarious Sunday NFL Picks columns. It was just 1:45:15.960 --> 1:45:20.799 me making sarcastic jokes and did making a game prediction 1:45:20.920 --> 1:45:23.960 or whatever. And my newspaper took that away from me. 1:45:24.600 --> 1:45:26.200 And so I was like, Oh, if I'm gonna be 1:45:26.200 --> 1:45:29.559 creative and funny, I gotta find a venue for that. 1:45:30.000 --> 1:45:32.800 And that was page two. And so I just wanted 1:45:32.800 --> 1:45:36.200 to be over there just because I could get another 1:45:36.240 --> 1:45:39.799 side of my personality out. And so then you write 1:45:40.200 --> 1:45:42.439 do an interview with the big lead and I remember 1:45:42.479 --> 1:45:45.960 this vaguely. What did you say in that interview that 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:51.519 was so controversial? I said that Mike Lubrica was a 1:45:51.520 --> 1:45:55.920 mean spirit of mean spirited busybody. And I said that 1:45:56.640 --> 1:46:01.240 Scoop Jackson was bo jangling for dollars or whatever. I 1:46:01.320 --> 1:46:07.200 was critical of Scoop Jackson, who was writing columns for 1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:13.200 ESPN at that time, and they, for lack of a 1:46:13.240 --> 1:46:15.880 better describe, they just worked very well written, they worked 1:46:16.600 --> 1:46:20.120 up to standards or whatever. And he was writing some 1:46:20.160 --> 1:46:27.479 provocative things about race that uh weren't very well thought 1:46:27.520 --> 1:46:29.800 out and it irritated me and I thought it was 1:46:30.600 --> 1:46:36.240 but need the ESPN and and uh, you know, did 1:46:36.240 --> 1:46:38.160 you know? What did you know? What the funt that 1:46:38.520 --> 1:46:40.719 it was? That an email interview? How did you write 1:46:40.720 --> 1:46:43.280 the like to get your It was an email interview 1:46:44.400 --> 1:46:47.559 was going to be provocative at the time, without question, 1:46:47.600 --> 1:46:49.720 and I knew that it was gonna cost me my 1:46:50.400 --> 1:46:54.000 opportunity to write an ESPN at the time. So you 1:46:54.439 --> 1:47:00.719 at that, Yeah, at that time, I was book ahead 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:03.880 done what he had done to me at the Sports Reporters, 1:47:05.040 --> 1:47:13.400 and ESPN was leaning into the Scoop Jackson deal and 1:47:14.520 --> 1:47:24.080 I was irritated. And there's some really talented qualified uh 1:47:24.120 --> 1:47:27.320 African American journalists that they could have been leaning into 1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:32.280 and uh I was irritated and said what I said 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:35.040 in the interview, and you know it is what it is. 1:47:35.200 --> 1:47:39.800 Was that the first so your your career from I 1:47:39.840 --> 1:47:43.720 think it was when you start working at the at 1:47:43.760 --> 1:47:47.600 the or nineteen nine nine, sorry the Bloomington News to 1:47:48.000 --> 1:47:50.320 all the way up to that interview with the Big Lead. 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:52.960 Is basically like if you were charting it, it's like 1:47:53.000 --> 1:47:55.960 a stock. You just keep rising, right, everything is going 1:47:56.040 --> 1:47:58.400 really well. Was that the first time? The concept of 1:47:58.439 --> 1:48:00.640 this interview is wins in Law says, You've had a 1:48:00.640 --> 1:48:03.519 lot of wins at that point. Obviously, didn't necessarily have 1:48:03.560 --> 1:48:06.080 a lot in your athletic career at Ball State, but 1:48:06.120 --> 1:48:09.599 I mean in terms of your professional career, it's all wins. 1:48:09.720 --> 1:48:13.479 Was that the first time you really hit aggressive, you know, 1:48:13.520 --> 1:48:18.360 a situation where you could be described as losing a battle. Yeah, 1:48:18.439 --> 1:48:24.640 I certainly lost that battle. Uh, But I'll say that 1:48:24.760 --> 1:48:27.040 it was a battle that I was willing to lose 1:48:28.960 --> 1:48:34.360 because I thought I really just wanted to lean back 1:48:34.439 --> 1:48:38.400 into being a journalist in two thousand and six, two 1:48:38.400 --> 1:48:43.400 thousand seven, and I felt that I was a bit 1:48:43.560 --> 1:48:48.679 stymied at e scre uh and there were other things 1:48:48.720 --> 1:48:51.719 going on politically at ESPN. And when I say politics, 1:48:51.760 --> 1:48:57.880 I don't mean politics, just office politics that we're going 1:48:58.000 --> 1:49:02.040 on that we're limiting me. Uh Neil Scarborough, who had 1:49:02.160 --> 1:49:05.440 hired me, there had been one out of his position. 1:49:05.560 --> 1:49:08.680 And so uh Neil is now by the way at 1:49:08.760 --> 1:49:11.280 Fox right for people who do and you work with 1:49:11.360 --> 1:49:13.880 him and see him on a regular basis at Fox, Yes, 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:16.479 he had been one out of his position, and so 1:49:17.200 --> 1:49:21.360 there was nobody getting credit for my success. Therefore there 1:49:21.439 --> 1:49:26.040 was no one interested my success. And which is another good, 1:49:26.080 --> 1:49:29.759 by the way, business lesson for everybody out there listening. Yeah, 1:49:29.880 --> 1:49:33.920 and so I needed to take this l and I 1:49:34.000 --> 1:49:41.040 needed to uh find a different avenue to express my 1:49:41.120 --> 1:49:44.400 creative activity and work with people that would get credit 1:49:44.479 --> 1:49:49.679 for my success. And so I had a dispute with 1:49:51.160 --> 1:49:57.280 ESPN about the worth of my column to page two 1:49:59.240 --> 1:50:02.040 because I was getting paid much at the time, I 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:05.240 was doing it for the access to the platform. And 1:50:06.240 --> 1:50:10.040 so I just I made those decisions, did that of 1:50:10.120 --> 1:50:13.320 here with the big League, knowing that okay, things here 1:50:13.320 --> 1:50:18.519 with the espater over for now. And and I kneel 1:50:18.880 --> 1:50:22.320 at that time had gone over to a O. L 1:50:22.439 --> 1:50:26.440 Sports at that time, and I knew that he understood 1:50:26.479 --> 1:50:29.040 the value of my column because when he saw the clicks, 1:50:29.080 --> 1:50:32.439 he saw the engagement rate and all that other stuff. 1:50:32.880 --> 1:50:37.320 And so I would imagine, I don't remember exactly, but 1:50:37.439 --> 1:50:40.040 he I think he paid me about ten times more 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:43.880 for my column than he SCN did uh at A O. 1:50:44.040 --> 1:50:49.960 L Sports And uh and so and this had that 1:50:50.080 --> 1:50:52.280 happened around two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, 1:50:52.320 --> 1:50:55.240 because it was while I was with A O. L Sports, 1:50:55.680 --> 1:50:57.760 I wrote a column in the Kansas City Start with 1:50:57.840 --> 1:51:03.080 that don I miss Rutgers basketball thing happened and that's probably, 1:51:04.280 --> 1:51:07.519 uh the highlight of the peak of my writing career 1:51:07.520 --> 1:51:11.799 as a journalists. Uh you know that that column. Oprah 1:51:11.800 --> 1:51:15.880 Winfried liked that column where I talked about how uh 1:51:16.040 --> 1:51:19.559 black people needed to be more concerned with what we 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:22.240 thought about each other, more so than don Imus, the 1:51:22.280 --> 1:51:24.559 guy that we don't really care about or know much about. 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:28.519 Oprah like the column had me on her show talking 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:32.559 about that issue for two days, and that column and 1:51:32.640 --> 1:51:35.680 some other ones were packaged together and I want to 1:51:36.400 --> 1:51:41.040 National Journalism Award for Commentary from Scripts Howard that was. 1:51:41.360 --> 1:51:43.960 That was in two thousand seven, and so that was 1:51:44.080 --> 1:51:48.640 the peak of my journalism career. All came within the 1:51:48.760 --> 1:51:52.519 year of me leaving ESP. I don't know if you 1:51:52.560 --> 1:51:55.040 remember this. We didn't know each other at that time, 1:51:55.560 --> 1:51:57.920 but I read that column. If you have, I don't 1:51:57.920 --> 1:51:59.920 even remember what your email address was. I think it 1:52:00.040 --> 1:52:02.000 is an A O L dot com email addressed back 1:52:02.040 --> 1:52:06.000 in the day, but I wrote you an email if 1:52:06.040 --> 1:52:08.759 you still have access to any of your archives before 1:52:08.800 --> 1:52:10.439 we had ever met, saying that I thought it was 1:52:10.479 --> 1:52:13.320 one of the best sports columns I'd ever read. And 1:52:13.320 --> 1:52:15.120 and I think I also said hey, and I enjoy 1:52:15.200 --> 1:52:16.880 I think you were guest hosting every now and then 1:52:16.880 --> 1:52:19.600 for p t I at that time. Yea, and I 1:52:19.640 --> 1:52:21.800 wrote saying I enjoyed when you set in for Krnheiser 1:52:21.880 --> 1:52:24.640 and Wilbon. And you wrote back and said thanks, but 1:52:24.720 --> 1:52:27.240 you probably don't even remember that. But that is before 1:52:27.280 --> 1:52:29.760 we ever had met. I had read that column and 1:52:29.760 --> 1:52:31.880 I'd said, wow, this is a really well done, well 1:52:31.960 --> 1:52:35.920 thought out column. So that's in two thousand seven. So, uh, 1:52:36.200 --> 1:52:38.639 you have now been writing for a long time as 1:52:38.680 --> 1:52:43.120 a daily columnist since and and I think this is 1:52:43.160 --> 1:52:45.800 interesting for people out there listening. At some point you 1:52:45.840 --> 1:52:47.599 kind of hinted at this. You want to get and 1:52:47.640 --> 1:52:51.120 be able to expand your writing universe. It's great to 1:52:51.240 --> 1:52:53.920 be in this same thing for doing local sports talk radio, 1:52:54.720 --> 1:52:56.920 but after a while you feel like you've said everything 1:52:57.000 --> 1:52:59.800 about a local sports market, or at least I did, 1:53:00.160 --> 1:53:02.200 like you can only talk and I didn't local radio 1:53:02.240 --> 1:53:06.080 in Nashville. Eventually you get tired, I think of talking 1:53:06.080 --> 1:53:08.000 about who a certain team is going to take in 1:53:08.000 --> 1:53:10.280 the NFL Draft, which you do for two months on 1:53:10.320 --> 1:53:12.720 the radio, right, I mean, that's just kind of the 1:53:12.800 --> 1:53:15.840 natural outgrowth. So did you feel as if you know 1:53:15.920 --> 1:53:18.080 what I'm ready for a change. How did you come 1:53:18.120 --> 1:53:23.400 to leave Kansas City? No, I did not. I am 1:53:23.439 --> 1:53:31.920 a I love newspapers, yeah, and love feel like newspapers 1:53:32.960 --> 1:53:37.040 back then, and particularly in the nineties two thousand's during 1:53:37.080 --> 1:53:43.280 that time, I felt like it was patriotic to work 1:53:43.320 --> 1:53:47.160 for a newspaper, and I thought it was a contribution 1:53:47.280 --> 1:53:51.320 to the good of the country. And so I and again, 1:53:51.400 --> 1:53:54.400 I wanted to be Mike Royko, who was the voice 1:53:54.400 --> 1:53:57.840 of Chicago for thirty years, and that's what I wanted 1:53:57.840 --> 1:54:01.360 to be in Kansas City. What it ended up happening 1:54:01.800 --> 1:54:05.160 over the next three years from two thousand seven to 1:54:05.240 --> 1:54:10.880 two thousand and ten, is that newspapers just started swinging 1:54:10.920 --> 1:54:17.559 in a direction that didn't feel like what I got 1:54:17.600 --> 1:54:22.720 in it for. And you know, newspapers and particularly the 1:54:22.760 --> 1:54:27.800 Star at that time, we're so concerned about these awards 1:54:27.840 --> 1:54:31.439 and these annual A. P. S. C. Awards and all 1:54:31.479 --> 1:54:38.800 this other stuff, and just didn't seem prepared to transition 1:54:39.440 --> 1:54:41.960 into this new world that we're living in where the 1:54:41.960 --> 1:54:45.760 Internet is king. And I suggested a bunch of ideas 1:54:46.560 --> 1:54:49.120 uh to the Kansas City Star about how we could 1:54:49.120 --> 1:54:51.720 pivot and what we could do on the Internet, and 1:54:51.800 --> 1:54:55.800 they just weren't interested in them, and that made me 1:54:57.200 --> 1:55:01.000 reached the conclusion that there was no future for me 1:55:01.080 --> 1:55:03.480 in newspapers. And that was again. That was a two 1:55:03.600 --> 1:55:07.240 or three year process that ended in two thousand and 1:55:07.320 --> 1:55:11.440 ten when I left the Kansas City Star moved here 1:55:11.440 --> 1:55:14.920 to Los Angeles to work full time for Fox Sports 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:17.560 dot Com. What'd your mom say when you left Kansas City? 1:55:21.240 --> 1:55:27.000 I think she was disappointed and concerned. I think, you know, 1:55:28.000 --> 1:55:30.000 and keep in mind, by this she had moved back 1:55:30.040 --> 1:55:33.560 to Indianapolis. Wasn't in Kansas City when I was during 1:55:33.600 --> 1:55:37.320 my career, she was back in but she still she 1:55:37.320 --> 1:55:40.360 would come out for events like yeah, for like when 1:55:40.360 --> 1:55:41.960 you had the parties at the end of the year 1:55:42.000 --> 1:55:46.080 and things like that. She loved my life in Kansas City. 1:55:47.000 --> 1:55:52.440 Concerned about me moving to Los Angeles, but uh, you 1:55:52.480 --> 1:55:56.840 know understood, You know that that she understood. I think 1:55:56.840 --> 1:55:59.240 she was concerned. Though. What was the reaction when you 1:55:59.240 --> 1:56:06.120 told him you were leave in the Kansas City Star? Uh? Uh, Well. 1:56:06.280 --> 1:56:12.400 I did a three hour radio television simulcast called The Explanation, 1:56:12.600 --> 1:56:19.040 Explaining My decisions James of you, Yes, explaining my decision 1:56:19.080 --> 1:56:25.440 to leave and Uh, the reaction was, you know, pretty controversial, 1:56:25.480 --> 1:56:28.760 while because of that three hour explanation was pretty controversial. 1:56:28.920 --> 1:56:36.080 While but you know, I think I think the candidacy 1:56:36.200 --> 1:56:39.480 star was ready for me to go in in terms 1:56:39.520 --> 1:56:44.520 of I don't think my point of view at that 1:56:44.600 --> 1:56:49.640 time fit where newspapers were headed. My point of view 1:56:49.760 --> 1:56:57.600 is very independent and outspoken, and American newspapers aren't very 1:56:57.640 --> 1:57:02.280 independent thinking anymore. And I just I just didn't sit. 1:57:02.800 --> 1:57:05.400 Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the coverage 1:57:05.400 --> 1:57:08.600 with Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern three am 1:57:08.640 --> 1:57:12.040 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio. 1:57:12.560 --> 1:57:16.320 This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Here's more 1:57:16.440 --> 1:57:20.080 from his conversation with Jason Whitlock. Al Right, so I 1:57:20.120 --> 1:57:22.800 want to ask you this question. We focused almost entirely 1:57:22.920 --> 1:57:28.120 on your professional life so far. You've never been married. 1:57:29.240 --> 1:57:32.360 Did you date, did you have serious girlfriends? Did you 1:57:32.400 --> 1:57:35.440 ever get engaged? Did you ever think like, hey, I'm 1:57:35.480 --> 1:57:38.960 ready for a domestic life or were you so committed 1:57:39.000 --> 1:57:42.240 to work and obviously you are working almost full time 1:57:42.280 --> 1:57:44.440 for many of these jobs that you just didn't never 1:57:44.480 --> 1:57:47.360 have any time for that. What was your life like 1:57:47.640 --> 1:57:49.800 in the limited amounts of time that you were not 1:57:49.880 --> 1:57:59.560 spending working. I certainly dated. Uh, I was briefly engaged 1:57:59.720 --> 1:58:10.680 in Kansas City. Uh maybe two weeks? Two weeks did 1:58:07.400 --> 1:58:14.960 get the whole? Uh? Did she call it off? Or 1:58:14.960 --> 1:58:17.440 did you call it off? No? I called it off. 1:58:17.640 --> 1:58:21.400 It was it was a horrible decision. Somebody my family 1:58:21.440 --> 1:58:24.240 and friends liked a lot more than I did, and 1:58:24.760 --> 1:58:27.400 I got talked into it more than I wanted to 1:58:27.400 --> 1:58:35.160 do it. Uh it you know, me and the woman 1:58:35.320 --> 1:58:41.320 probably dated backup forth for ten years. Was a long time, 1:58:43.120 --> 1:58:48.600 and so but you know, it was a bad relationship. 1:58:48.640 --> 1:58:55.120 I should you know, I made some awful decisions relationship 1:58:55.200 --> 1:59:00.480 wise that have haunted me. Uh you know, and because 1:59:00.600 --> 1:59:03.360 who knows. I doubt you'll ever hear this, but who knows? 1:59:03.440 --> 1:59:12.080 But I I missed out on the two women I 1:59:12.080 --> 1:59:16.240 should have married because I was you know, on again 1:59:16.240 --> 1:59:20.040 off her a game relationship with this particular person and 1:59:20.440 --> 1:59:25.840 could never get all in on the two women that 1:59:26.200 --> 1:59:31.520 uh I met in Kansas City that I probably one 1:59:31.560 --> 1:59:34.960 of them I definitely should have married, uh and the 1:59:35.040 --> 1:59:38.440 other one I think I should have but uh, it 1:59:38.600 --> 1:59:42.920 just in Kansas City. Yeah, I certainly had a long 1:59:43.040 --> 1:59:49.920 term relationship that uh wasn't wasn't the healthiest. It's fun, uh, 1:59:50.520 --> 1:59:53.520 but wasn't the healthiest and just wasn't the right fit 1:59:53.640 --> 2:00:01.160 for me. Mom pressure you to get married, she used to, Uh, 2:00:01.280 --> 2:00:07.280 but you know doesn't now. Uh, it's it doesn't now. 2:00:07.720 --> 2:00:10.680 I it's kind I did not realize you're gonna ask 2:00:10.680 --> 2:00:16.400 me to as you and so literally I just had 2:00:16.440 --> 2:00:22.560 a five year relationship just just end over the past week. Uh. 2:00:22.640 --> 2:00:25.920 And so you're you're you're you're catching me at a 2:00:25.960 --> 2:00:29.520 at a at a different time. But my philosophy on 2:00:29.680 --> 2:00:36.400 relationships has it I don't I think been the healthiest. 2:00:36.440 --> 2:00:40.600 I think if I really did an analysis on why 2:00:40.720 --> 2:00:47.600 I didn't consummate or didn't go full steam on the 2:00:47.640 --> 2:00:51.520 two relationships that probably would have ended in marriage. Is 2:00:51.640 --> 2:01:00.240 just I'm so committed to this career that, uh, I 2:01:00.280 --> 2:01:04.480 don't know if I I don't know if I'm the 2:01:04.560 --> 2:01:11.040 best relationship partner, um for for someone who's right for me. 2:01:12.400 --> 2:01:16.960 And so uh it's something to get you catch me 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:18.640 on a weekend. What I've been doing a lot of 2:01:18.680 --> 2:01:22.879 introspection and a lot of uh trying to figure out 2:01:23.280 --> 2:01:26.280 why I keep doing the same things over and over again, 2:01:26.920 --> 2:01:29.800 and how I'm not gonna do it again. And there 2:01:29.840 --> 2:01:33.120 are better decisions I want to make. So I just 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:38.800 my career has been and and an obstacle for me 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:43.800 relationship wise and my decision making, because I mean, when 2:01:43.800 --> 2:01:45.640 you think you said you wanted to be Mike Royko, 2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:48.280 you've done it. Did you ever think I want to 2:01:48.320 --> 2:01:50.160 get married and have kids? Do you still think at 2:01:50.200 --> 2:01:51.920 some point I'd like to get married and have kids. 2:01:53.080 --> 2:01:59.520 I certainly thought I would have kids by this time. Uh. 2:02:00.320 --> 2:02:06.040 I certainly wanted to have kids, but I think at 2:02:06.120 --> 2:02:08.680 my age now, I'm not sure if that would be 2:02:08.800 --> 2:02:15.920 right for the kids. Uh. And so yeah, I would say, 2:02:16.760 --> 2:02:22.120 you know, if this podcast as wins and lawsuits in 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:25.000 order for me to win career wise, I think I 2:02:25.080 --> 2:02:30.280 have sacrificing things personally. And you know, I wish that 2:02:30.400 --> 2:02:33.680 I had better balance, and I've been trying to have 2:02:33.880 --> 2:02:40.640 better balance unsuccessfully, uh for the last few years. All right, 2:02:40.720 --> 2:02:44.280 let's go, Um to l A. You moved to l A. 2:02:44.360 --> 2:02:47.400 You start writing at Fox sports dot Com two thousand, 2:02:48.920 --> 2:02:53.560 two thousand ten. Sorry, how did that go? It went 2:02:53.720 --> 2:02:58.800 very well? Um. I work with a guy, uh, Steve 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:03.960 Miller and Ed Brunnle and two thousand and ten and 2:03:05.560 --> 2:03:10.640 they let me just run wild. David Hill was in 2:03:10.720 --> 2:03:15.560 charge of Fox at the time, and Uh, if you 2:03:15.560 --> 2:03:19.160 know anything about David Hill, he loves to push the envelope. 2:03:19.920 --> 2:03:23.520 And so I was on Fox Sports dot Com pushing 2:03:23.560 --> 2:03:27.360 the envelope in every direction it could be pushed. Uh, 2:03:27.400 --> 2:03:32.120 and it was phenomenal. I you know, I think if 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:35.240 you look from two thousand and ten to two thousand thirteen, 2:03:36.880 --> 2:03:40.000 I think I did my best work as a sports columnist. 2:03:41.040 --> 2:03:45.200 Uh it was you know. And again, the stuff I 2:03:45.240 --> 2:03:50.600 did in Kansas City, I think was phenomenal. And you know, 2:03:50.680 --> 2:03:53.160 it was good enough to win me national awards and 2:03:53.680 --> 2:03:57.400 give me on Oprah Winfrey. But in terms of getting 2:03:57.520 --> 2:04:03.640 my full personality on the play, you know, Steve Miller 2:04:03.720 --> 2:04:06.320 and Ed Bottle and the people running Fox Sports at 2:04:06.520 --> 2:04:10.640 dot com at that time, they got the best of 2:04:10.640 --> 2:04:15.960 me for three years. Then ESPN Fox is getting ready 2:04:16.000 --> 2:04:19.840 to launch a new uh, a new network FS one 2:04:19.960 --> 2:04:24.360 Fox Sports one. ESPN and John Skipper decide We're not 2:04:24.400 --> 2:04:26.920 going to allow Fox to get good talent. We're going 2:04:27.000 --> 2:04:30.920 to compete for everybody. And they decide, even though you 2:04:31.080 --> 2:04:34.200 kind of left in not the best terms for me 2:04:34.440 --> 2:04:37.480 ESPN based on that big lead interview. How does that 2:04:37.520 --> 2:04:41.360 process work that they end up bringing you back? Yeah, 2:04:41.760 --> 2:04:47.480 John Skipper wanted to launch The Undefeated or or we 2:04:47.480 --> 2:04:49.320 didn't know it was The Undefeated at that time, but 2:04:49.480 --> 2:04:53.640 wanted to do a vanity website for African American generalists. 2:04:54.440 --> 2:04:59.880 And I think he accurately said, well, I think the 2:05:00.520 --> 2:05:04.200 Black Sports Journal was going to do it, and he 2:05:04.320 --> 2:05:08.800 identified me to do it. Uh, And then I think 2:05:09.080 --> 2:05:12.160 and so he offered me the job in two thousand 2:05:12.120 --> 2:05:16.920 and thirteen. And again, if you understand FS one is 2:05:16.960 --> 2:05:22.600 starting their television network, they don't have at that time 2:05:22.880 --> 2:05:26.440 a full vision for me and what I would do 2:05:26.640 --> 2:05:30.080 at that time. And John Skipper at that time had 2:05:30.080 --> 2:05:32.240 a full vision of what he wanted me to do 2:05:32.360 --> 2:05:36.600 and accomplished and it it played to my strength at 2:05:36.600 --> 2:05:40.000 the time, which is sports writing and writing and starting 2:05:40.000 --> 2:05:43.839 that website. And so I moved back over to ESPN 2:05:44.520 --> 2:05:49.200 to help them formulate and launch, uh, The Undefeated, not 2:05:49.440 --> 2:05:54.080 knowing that I was stepping into a political ship. Store 2:05:54.240 --> 2:05:58.680 all right, So this is like up to that point, Um, 2:05:58.720 --> 2:06:02.600 I think maybe you sent the Jeremy Lynn tweet at 2:06:02.680 --> 2:06:04.920 some point while you were was that When did that happen? 2:06:05.560 --> 2:06:08.520 That was? That? Was that Fox? When I was at 2:06:08.520 --> 2:06:12.920 Fox sports dot Com probably in two thousand nine or 2:06:13.480 --> 2:06:16.320 I'm sorry, two thousand eleven, twelve, somewhere around there. Is 2:06:16.360 --> 2:06:18.960 that up to that point the most controversial thing you 2:06:19.040 --> 2:06:23.360 had found yourself in the middle of. No, the don 2:06:23.400 --> 2:06:26.480 Imus thing was the most constiut But you didn't you didn't. 2:06:26.520 --> 2:06:28.839 You didn't cause the don You just had an opinion 2:06:28.880 --> 2:06:31.080 on the don iMOS thing. Yeah, but it was a 2:06:31.200 --> 2:06:37.160 very controversial opinion that literally, if you really look at 2:06:37.200 --> 2:06:43.280 my ski at my career, uh, that don Imus column 2:06:43.360 --> 2:06:45.440 is the one that marked me as a target of 2:06:45.520 --> 2:06:48.480 the left. But in two thousand seven and they, you know, 2:06:48.840 --> 2:06:50.840 come back came back to haught me in two thousand 2:06:50.880 --> 2:06:54.080 and thirteen. But yeah, the Jeremy Lynn thing was controversial 2:06:54.120 --> 2:06:56.520 and certainly a mistake on my part. All Right, So 2:06:56.600 --> 2:06:58.360 I want to circle back around to the Oprah thing, 2:06:58.520 --> 2:07:01.520 Like you go on Oprah. Oprah and now has become 2:07:01.640 --> 2:07:06.480 super woke, right, but she is a you know, at 2:07:06.480 --> 2:07:09.560 the absolute apex of her powers at the time that 2:07:09.640 --> 2:07:12.920 she has you on to talk about the don Imus controversy, 2:07:13.000 --> 2:07:16.320 and she was in agreeance right with very much of 2:07:16.360 --> 2:07:19.560 the tone of your column. If I remember correctly, then 2:07:19.640 --> 2:07:22.800 am I am I thinking about that wrong? Yeah? Oprah 2:07:22.920 --> 2:07:26.080 basically had me on to represent and again this is 2:07:26.120 --> 2:07:28.560 not what she told me, but it was clear by 2:07:28.600 --> 2:07:31.320 what she did she had me wanted to represent her 2:07:31.360 --> 2:07:34.680 point of view. Again, it's it's one of those the 2:07:34.480 --> 2:07:39.880 Oprah in her spot, she let off signals for years 2:07:39.880 --> 2:07:43.360 that that was her point of view, but to argue 2:07:43.400 --> 2:07:47.960 it in full, in detail, she couldn't do it and 2:07:48.080 --> 2:07:52.040 keep her job and to stay non polarizing, and so 2:07:53.040 --> 2:07:56.720 uh with that Imus thinging hit, it was like, Okay, Whitlock, 2:07:56.800 --> 2:07:59.280 we're representing my point of view and he'll argue my 2:07:59.280 --> 2:08:03.320 my side of it. And I probably I contend she 2:08:03.400 --> 2:08:07.040 still feels the same way. I don't think she's changed 2:08:07.080 --> 2:08:11.760 on that. I do think corporate America and you know, 2:08:11.840 --> 2:08:16.760 what they're willing to support has possibly made Oprah appear 2:08:17.520 --> 2:08:20.320 more woke than what she asked what she actually is. 2:08:20.440 --> 2:08:22.000 Let me say this too, because I bet there's some 2:08:22.040 --> 2:08:24.360 people out there who are listening to us that are young, 2:08:24.560 --> 2:08:28.120 because I forget how old we've become now, who don't 2:08:28.120 --> 2:08:30.520 know anything about the don Imus controversy. So I just 2:08:30.520 --> 2:08:32.960 pulled up on Wikipedia and I'm reading off of this. 2:08:33.480 --> 2:08:36.720 On April four, two thousand seven, during a discussion about 2:08:36.760 --> 2:08:39.840 the n C Double A Women's basketball Championship, I must 2:08:39.920 --> 2:08:44.960 characterize the Rutgers University women's basketball team players as quote 2:08:45.360 --> 2:08:49.280 rough girls commenting on their tattoos. Again, this is Wikipedia 2:08:49.280 --> 2:08:53.600 that I'm reading from. His executive producer responded by referring 2:08:53.600 --> 2:08:58.080 to them as quote hardcore hose. The discussion continued with 2:08:58.240 --> 2:09:02.520 I must describing the women as nappy headed hose. Uh. 2:09:02.560 --> 2:09:07.240 And so that was an immediate outrage, right like um 2:09:07.360 --> 2:09:10.320 and and so that just kind of blew up into 2:09:10.480 --> 2:09:13.280 a massive for people out there who eleven years, twelve 2:09:13.360 --> 2:09:16.640 years after this maybe weren't aware of that story or 2:09:16.640 --> 2:09:19.680 don't even really remember that much about Imus. This turned 2:09:19.680 --> 2:09:25.160 into a huge cultural flashpoint. Yes, and my opinion was 2:09:26.080 --> 2:09:29.320 that he, look, din Imus is an idiot. What he 2:09:29.400 --> 2:09:34.600 said is stupid, but he has no relevance or traction 2:09:35.360 --> 2:09:39.880 in our community, the African Americans community. Most people will 2:09:39.920 --> 2:09:44.920 need to explain to them who died Imus is. And 2:09:44.960 --> 2:09:47.840 I was like, what we need to be concerned about 2:09:47.920 --> 2:09:51.000 is how we feel about each other. And I go. 2:09:51.280 --> 2:09:54.600 You can turn on any rap song and here far 2:09:54.720 --> 2:09:59.200 worse said about African American women than anything don Imus 2:09:59.240 --> 2:10:02.520 just said. That was my opinion, man, is still my 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:10.000 opinion now, and that was a very controversial view that 2:10:10.440 --> 2:10:13.760 in my view, Oprah agreed with and had me on 2:10:13.800 --> 2:10:16.800 the show to talk about. But you think that opinion, 2:10:16.920 --> 2:10:19.960 which is again the Jeremy Lynn thing, you made a joke. 2:10:20.000 --> 2:10:22.800 It's on Twitter like and you know that can blow up, 2:10:22.800 --> 2:10:26.720 as these Twitter controversies do, but you think that it 2:10:26.800 --> 2:10:30.200 was more than don Imus opinion that really kind of 2:10:30.240 --> 2:10:33.280 put you in the for lack of a better term, 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:37.560 like in the purview or the target range of left 2:10:37.600 --> 2:10:40.760 wing people in America question and put me in the 2:10:40.760 --> 2:10:46.080 crosshairs of the left wing because I'm someone if you 2:10:46.280 --> 2:10:50.120 look at the national journalism wars I've wanted, if you 2:10:50.240 --> 2:10:55.640 look at again being on the sports reporters out of 2:10:55.640 --> 2:11:01.640 the Midwest and what that conveys at that time, the Clay, 2:11:01.680 --> 2:11:04.400 It's a very short list if there are any any 2:11:04.480 --> 2:11:09.160 sports writers who were ever on the Oprah Winfrey show. 2:11:09.800 --> 2:11:12.920 Maybe Mitch Album promoting one of his Tusie with Marie 2:11:13.040 --> 2:11:19.160 type books. But Oprah Winfrey during her Heyday didn't have 2:11:19.240 --> 2:11:24.040 sportswriters on her show, and so I was being raised 2:11:24.320 --> 2:11:29.280 to a level of importance and had a message that 2:11:29.440 --> 2:11:33.920 the left just doesn't want black people to hear, and 2:11:33.960 --> 2:11:37.200 so something had to be done about it and done 2:11:37.200 --> 2:11:39.680 about me. And so I want to go back to 2:11:39.720 --> 2:11:41.080 Oprah for a minute, because I do think that a 2:11:41.120 --> 2:11:43.760 lot of people are gonna be curious on this. Going 2:11:43.800 --> 2:11:46.560 on Oprah at the time that you went on Oprah 2:11:47.320 --> 2:11:51.320 was like being crowned by you know, like the king 2:11:51.480 --> 2:11:54.000 or Queen of England, right, like being night and you 2:11:54.080 --> 2:11:56.280 were you. I mean, that was like bestowing up on 2:11:56.400 --> 2:12:00.080 you the ultimate and cultural relevance. And you had a 2:12:00.160 --> 2:12:03.000 really good performance on Oprah, right, It wasn't like you 2:12:03.040 --> 2:12:06.200 were Tom Cruise climbing on the couch like losing your mind. 2:12:06.280 --> 2:12:08.960 Like you made a cogent case. It was well received 2:12:09.480 --> 2:12:13.160 and like you said, your profile skyrocketed as a result 2:12:13.200 --> 2:12:16.400 of that. Were you aware of how big that was 2:12:16.440 --> 2:12:19.720 gonna be when you were doing it and and what 2:12:19.800 --> 2:12:22.000 was it like to come out of that Oprah interview 2:12:22.280 --> 2:12:26.000 and suddenly have basically at the time, every woman on 2:12:26.040 --> 2:12:28.760 the planet was watching Oprah Winfrey, right, Like I mean, 2:12:28.800 --> 2:12:32.280 you it was impossible to have almost more of a 2:12:32.280 --> 2:12:37.120 cultural impact on a talk show. Yeah, I knew it 2:12:37.200 --> 2:12:45.360 was a big deal. I was naive about, uh, the ramifications. 2:12:46.280 --> 2:12:49.800 I knew it was a big deal. I was very 2:12:49.960 --> 2:12:55.000 naive about the level of animus that would be directed 2:12:55.040 --> 2:12:58.960 by way out of just pure envy, spite, and fear. 2:13:00.600 --> 2:13:03.440 So you come out, So you go to ESPN. It's 2:13:03.440 --> 2:13:06.840 two thousand thirteen. Now you're developing a new website that's 2:13:06.880 --> 2:13:11.160 going to be called The Undefeated, and this it is 2:13:11.320 --> 2:13:15.880 very fascinating. Now you definitely became a target of the 2:13:15.920 --> 2:13:19.640 website dead Spin, which it seems to me decided that 2:13:19.720 --> 2:13:22.240 they wanted to destroy you. I don't, I don't. I 2:13:22.240 --> 2:13:24.520 don't think that that's an exaggeration. I mean, I think 2:13:24.880 --> 2:13:28.600 much like later hul Cogan would file a lawsuit against 2:13:28.720 --> 2:13:31.680 Gawker over you know, the publication of their of the 2:13:31.720 --> 2:13:34.520 tape involving Hulk Cogan, it seems to me that the 2:13:34.560 --> 2:13:37.280 people running dead Spin at the time decided, I want 2:13:37.320 --> 2:13:42.280 to destroy Jason Whitlock. I think that was a conscious decision. Yeah, 2:13:42.560 --> 2:13:48.720 I think that, Uh, they were paid to do just that. Yes, 2:13:49.360 --> 2:13:52.200 so you are the subject now, I don't know how 2:13:52.200 --> 2:13:55.040 many different articles they started to write at dead Spin 2:13:55.160 --> 2:13:57.880 and this for people now who again, it's twenty nineteen 2:13:57.880 --> 2:13:59.480 and we're doing this. You may be listening to this 2:13:59.560 --> 2:14:02.280 in twenty twenty five for all I know, because the 2:14:02.320 --> 2:14:05.320 goal with this Wins and Losses podcast is that people 2:14:05.360 --> 2:14:08.280 can listen to this for years and and glean whatever 2:14:08.360 --> 2:14:11.760 lessons or interesting stories might come from it. Dead Spend 2:14:11.760 --> 2:14:15.000 at the time was a very powerful website. Right. This 2:14:15.080 --> 2:14:18.560 is in the wake of their Leni Kakua uh you know, 2:14:18.600 --> 2:14:21.960 sort of coup want probably the biggest uh story by 2:14:22.000 --> 2:14:25.840 far that they ever did. Um. They are a cultural force, 2:14:26.120 --> 2:14:30.040 certainly in the world of sports media, and they trained 2:14:30.320 --> 2:14:34.080 their train their attention onto you as you were going 2:14:34.120 --> 2:14:39.680 through the process of developing this new website for ESPN. Yes, 2:14:40.000 --> 2:14:46.520 they took uh a writer, the Greg Howard guy, who, 2:14:46.520 --> 2:14:49.680 by the way, he has disappeared. Where is Greg Howard? Now? 2:14:49.720 --> 2:14:55.720 Do we know? No, we don't know. Un't. But you 2:14:55.760 --> 2:14:57.360 were at the process, for people who don't know, on 2:14:57.440 --> 2:15:00.240 the Undefeated, you were in the process of recruiting a 2:15:00.320 --> 2:15:02.920 lot of writers to be on this new website. It 2:15:03.000 --> 2:15:05.920 was gonna be similar somewhat to Bill Simmons the Ringer, right, 2:15:06.040 --> 2:15:07.560 I mean, or whatever it was called at the time, 2:15:08.120 --> 2:15:11.640 Grant Lyn Yeah. Um. And so you're out there recruiting, 2:15:11.680 --> 2:15:14.040 trying to find people that you think have the ability 2:15:14.080 --> 2:15:16.840 to write at a high level, uh for this uh, 2:15:16.880 --> 2:15:21.160 this particular website, the The Undefeated, and as part of that, 2:15:21.240 --> 2:15:23.480 you come into contact, obviously with a lot of guys. 2:15:23.480 --> 2:15:26.200 Because I want to say this for people out there listening. 2:15:26.360 --> 2:15:28.280 There's a lot of people who put on a big 2:15:28.320 --> 2:15:32.840 show about trying to provide opportunities to young people. And 2:15:32.880 --> 2:15:34.800 you kind of hinted at it a little bit talking 2:15:34.840 --> 2:15:38.560 about your relationship with kids from your high school and 2:15:38.720 --> 2:15:41.919 kids from your college at Ball State, but you actually 2:15:42.000 --> 2:15:45.120 walk the walk like you have surrounded your show now 2:15:45.720 --> 2:15:48.800 uh sports speak for yourself with a lot of young, 2:15:48.960 --> 2:15:52.440 smart kids who, let's be honest, probably would not have 2:15:52.520 --> 2:15:55.720 the opportunity to work on a show like yours without 2:15:55.760 --> 2:15:58.120 your advocating for them. Right. So, there are a lot 2:15:58.120 --> 2:16:00.480 of people who talk the talk in the world and 2:16:00.520 --> 2:16:03.560 don't actually follow through it. You have lifted up a 2:16:03.600 --> 2:16:06.000 lot of people over your career and continue to do 2:16:06.080 --> 2:16:09.360 it right now who maybe wouldn't have gotten opportunities without 2:16:09.360 --> 2:16:15.000 your advocacy absolutely, uh. And you also, by the way, 2:16:15.080 --> 2:16:17.320 let me say this, you don't get attention for it 2:16:17.760 --> 2:16:20.080 in the same way that other people who do less 2:16:20.320 --> 2:16:22.560 do I and you don't have to to preach for 2:16:22.640 --> 2:16:26.400 yourself here. But for people out there listening, Uh, this 2:16:26.480 --> 2:16:29.320 is not a great secret internally in the world. But 2:16:29.360 --> 2:16:31.200 there are a lot of people who are the wocust 2:16:31.240 --> 2:16:33.840 on Twitter that don't do a lot of work for 2:16:33.879 --> 2:16:37.400 people who might be able to benefit by their quote 2:16:37.480 --> 2:16:40.360 unquote wokenus right, And that's just I mean again, there's 2:16:40.400 --> 2:16:42.600 a lot of people who talk one way and walk another. 2:16:42.720 --> 2:16:46.320 So you actually follow through on the ability to try 2:16:46.320 --> 2:16:48.320 to lift other people up. Probably and you can speak 2:16:48.400 --> 2:16:50.720 this better than I can, because you feel like there 2:16:50.760 --> 2:16:52.440 weren't a lot of people to lift you up when 2:16:52.440 --> 2:16:57.360 you were necessarily twenty three years old in this industry. Well, 2:16:57.760 --> 2:17:02.039 I'm gonna be honest, there were people who lifted me 2:17:02.200 --> 2:17:06.120 up and who supported me, including you know, Ralph Wilde 2:17:06.120 --> 2:17:10.240 was a good friend of mine. And that is probably 2:17:10.280 --> 2:17:15.600 one of the reasons why I bend over backwards, uh, 2:17:15.920 --> 2:17:20.560 trying to help others and and so it's just part 2:17:20.600 --> 2:17:26.680 of my core life philosophy that you know, if you 2:17:27.040 --> 2:17:31.200 if you create a platform or you have success, that 2:17:31.600 --> 2:17:35.760 it's incumbent upon you too. You know, use your power 2:17:35.800 --> 2:17:40.880 in your platform to provide the opportunities for others, uh, 2:17:41.080 --> 2:17:45.279 to elevate themselves and to take advantage of the opportunities 2:17:45.280 --> 2:17:48.760 provided them. And so again, Darnie L. Smith, the kid 2:17:48.800 --> 2:17:52.360 from my high school, uh, you know, has a role 2:17:52.400 --> 2:17:54.840 on my show, and that we got a kid named 2:17:55.120 --> 2:17:58.160 Jay Hawk. I know him as Jay Hawk Mark. His 2:17:58.240 --> 2:18:01.560 real name is Mark Donald's, but I call him jay 2:18:01.560 --> 2:18:04.360 Hawk Mark because when I was in Kansas City and 2:18:04.400 --> 2:18:07.119 had my own radio show, there was a thirteen year 2:18:07.120 --> 2:18:09.520 old kid named Jay Hawk Mark that used to call 2:18:09.640 --> 2:18:13.520 my radio show every day and some little black kid 2:18:13.160 --> 2:18:18.199 and you know, idolized me. Well, now he's seven years old, 2:18:18.400 --> 2:18:21.240 and you know he works for my show out here 2:18:21.720 --> 2:18:26.280 in Los Angeles. Uh. And so I just think that 2:18:26.280 --> 2:18:30.280 that's important to provide young people, particularly if they show 2:18:30.320 --> 2:18:35.520 any initiative and good values, provide them an opportunity. Be 2:18:35.640 --> 2:18:38.039 sure to catch live editions of would Kicked the Coverage 2:18:38.040 --> 2:18:40.960 with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern three 2:18:40.959 --> 2:18:45.080 am Pacific. Clay Travis Dives Deep with Jason Whitlock on 2:18:45.160 --> 2:18:48.640 the Wins and Losses podcast, So we talked about wins 2:18:48.640 --> 2:18:50.600 and losses. You've had a ton of wins up to 2:18:50.640 --> 2:18:53.800 this point. Getting the opportunity for the biggest sports media 2:18:53.840 --> 2:18:56.200 company in the world to build a part of their 2:18:56.240 --> 2:18:59.720 website around your vision is maybe the biggest win of all. 2:19:00.200 --> 2:19:02.560 You had the one loss, but you've now canceled out 2:19:02.560 --> 2:19:06.000 because you got this endorsement. Uh and and obviously there 2:19:06.000 --> 2:19:09.119 are different wins and losses along the way, but now 2:19:09.360 --> 2:19:12.640 you become a target. And I don't know how many 2:19:12.720 --> 2:19:15.440 articles Deadspen was gonna write, but they had people secretly, 2:19:15.760 --> 2:19:18.760 you know, recording you, I think audio wise, Like I mean, 2:19:18.920 --> 2:19:21.240 this was like this was like you had the FBI 2:19:21.360 --> 2:19:22.840 and the c i A and the n s A 2:19:22.840 --> 2:19:26.280 all of a sudden out after you initially, did you 2:19:26.320 --> 2:19:29.400 just brush off the the impact of the coverage or 2:19:29.480 --> 2:19:32.920 when did you start to realize how pernicious it really 2:19:33.040 --> 2:19:36.120 was and maybe that this wasn't just some story, that 2:19:36.240 --> 2:19:41.400 the goal was really legitimately this website trying to destroy you. Now. 2:19:41.440 --> 2:19:45.680 I recognized early on what they were doing and what 2:19:45.760 --> 2:19:52.720 they were up to, but my survival plan was always 2:19:53.120 --> 2:19:57.800 the work that the work would see me through. I've 2:19:57.840 --> 2:20:01.760 always felt like that was my best and only defense 2:20:02.400 --> 2:20:05.920 is to produce great content. There's no other way to survive. 2:20:06.520 --> 2:20:12.600 And so I thought that if I just got to 2:20:12.680 --> 2:20:20.520 produce enough content that that with silence or nullify the critics, 2:20:23.600 --> 2:20:27.199 I actually think it it ended up working in reverse 2:20:27.320 --> 2:20:31.480 because you know, the the there was a lot of 2:20:31.520 --> 2:20:38.039 resistance internally, well beyond dead spend to my hire at ESPN, 2:20:38.760 --> 2:20:41.680 and just the point of view and what I represented 2:20:42.560 --> 2:20:49.120 wasn't going to be uh progressive enough for some people 2:20:49.240 --> 2:20:53.760 who think that the only pro black thing you can 2:20:53.800 --> 2:20:58.520 ever do is be progressive or liberal. I don't happen 2:20:58.600 --> 2:21:03.480 to believe that, and so I recognize that, you know, 2:21:03.560 --> 2:21:07.160 I needed this work. But actually, when we produced some 2:21:07.320 --> 2:21:10.640 great work, and I think if you look at we 2:21:10.720 --> 2:21:15.280 did a profile on Charles Barkley, Jesse Washington did it, 2:21:16.120 --> 2:21:18.440 and it was one of these stories that we were 2:21:18.480 --> 2:21:22.160 putting out there to let everybody know this is the 2:21:22.280 --> 2:21:25.039 level story we want to do and where we want 2:21:25.040 --> 2:21:30.480 to operate at. And that actually worked in reverse because 2:21:31.520 --> 2:21:37.040 that just made my critics double down even further, like 2:21:37.280 --> 2:21:42.480 holy shit, we gotta stop this guy. He's just edited 2:21:43.200 --> 2:21:48.599 helped formulate a story that is one of the most provocative, 2:21:48.760 --> 2:21:54.160 best things, well reported research thing that could ever be done, 2:21:54.840 --> 2:21:59.480 and it doesn't reach the right conclusions. And again people 2:21:59.560 --> 2:22:04.000 think I got an accused of being polemic, that I 2:22:04.080 --> 2:22:06.920 have some point of view that I'm dogmatic about and 2:22:06.959 --> 2:22:10.080 bah blah blah, which is untrue. I went into the 2:22:10.160 --> 2:22:14.640 Charles Barkley story as an editor with a completely different 2:22:14.760 --> 2:22:17.720 narrative about where this story was gonna land. I had 2:22:17.760 --> 2:22:22.400 told Jesse Washington that, yeah, I say, I think Barkley 2:22:22.480 --> 2:22:25.400 it's like he's going down to rush Limball Lane. He's 2:22:25.400 --> 2:22:29.600 just saying wild, crazy stuff to heighten his brand, and baba, 2:22:30.120 --> 2:22:33.400 that's what I thought told Jesse the story was gonna 2:22:33.440 --> 2:22:36.640 be about. But I told Jesse, We're gonna go wherever 2:22:36.680 --> 2:22:40.280 the reporting leads. And so once Jesse got into the 2:22:40.320 --> 2:22:44.440 reporting of it, the story led a completely different direction. 2:22:44.920 --> 2:22:49.720 That Barkley is actually just true to his upbringing in Alabama, 2:22:50.640 --> 2:22:57.920 and that he's actually like a modern day booker T Washington, uh, 2:22:58.000 --> 2:23:02.640 and he's reflecting of the culture from which he grew 2:23:02.720 --> 2:23:06.160 up in the church his grandma, his grandmother and mother 2:23:06.240 --> 2:23:09.840 had him in and blah blah, we explained Charles Barkley 2:23:09.840 --> 2:23:12.640 in a way that had never been done before, and 2:23:12.680 --> 2:23:15.000 it made perfect sense, and it was beautifully written and 2:23:15.080 --> 2:23:20.680 researched and blah blah blah, and people had a ship storm. 2:23:20.840 --> 2:23:25.000 John Skipper loved the story originally, and then he listened 2:23:25.040 --> 2:23:30.560 to all these idiot critics who talked him into, oh, 2:23:30.680 --> 2:23:33.000 the actually the story wasn't that good, and it was 2:23:33.360 --> 2:23:35.680 they screwed up the history, and they just all just 2:23:35.720 --> 2:23:40.400 went batshit crazy trying to beat down this story. And 2:23:39.879 --> 2:23:44.800 and so the actual quality and the high nature quality 2:23:44.800 --> 2:23:48.840 of what we did actually just made my critics double 2:23:48.959 --> 2:23:52.840 down and go after me even harder. And you know, 2:23:53.160 --> 2:23:56.720 eventually they went to even greater lens. As you said, 2:23:56.840 --> 2:24:01.400 was uh, you know that they part time secretary that 2:24:01.480 --> 2:24:07.120 I hired and getting hurd of tape things, and just 2:24:07.560 --> 2:24:12.520 it just it just got crazy. And it just became 2:24:12.600 --> 2:24:19.400 crystal clear that the political left was going to attack 2:24:19.560 --> 2:24:24.160 me and anybody who supported me at the SPN until 2:24:24.200 --> 2:24:26.360 they got rid of me at the STN. And and 2:24:26.840 --> 2:24:30.879 I don't blame John Skipper for giving up on me, 2:24:32.680 --> 2:24:36.440 because from his point of view and what he was 2:24:36.520 --> 2:24:40.480 dealing with internally there at the ESPN, it just did. 2:24:40.640 --> 2:24:44.720 It wasn't worth the sustained fight in his mind. I 2:24:44.720 --> 2:24:49.120 think it's a mistake. I think that the Undefeated is 2:24:49.840 --> 2:24:55.600 you know, was made impotent by my removal. Uh, and 2:24:55.640 --> 2:24:58.039 that you know, it's a site that publishes a lot 2:24:58.080 --> 2:25:04.680 of sidebar stories and doesn't do any real high impact things. Uh, 2:25:05.320 --> 2:25:10.480 it's not. It doesn't meet the grand ideas and vision 2:25:10.560 --> 2:25:15.039 that you know, we originally had for it. But on 2:25:15.080 --> 2:25:20.000 the plus side, you know, there's thirty to fifty African 2:25:20.000 --> 2:25:23.360 American journalists that have jobs because the underfeat is there, 2:25:23.400 --> 2:25:27.120 and uh, that is a plus. But I just I 2:25:27.600 --> 2:25:31.240 wish that the site was far more ambitious than what 2:25:31.320 --> 2:25:34.960 it's being allowed to be. How much of your and 2:25:35.000 --> 2:25:36.600 I'm gonna get back to Deadspin in a minute, but 2:25:36.680 --> 2:25:40.800 how much of your struggles came from suddenly being a manager? 2:25:43.680 --> 2:25:48.360 I don't think, and again I don't think those were 2:25:48.400 --> 2:25:54.840 my real struggles. It my my struggles, to be quite honestly, 2:25:54.879 --> 2:25:58.160 We're just there were people that just didn't want to 2:25:58.200 --> 2:26:00.280 do the site. And I'm talk about people that mattered 2:26:00.360 --> 2:26:02.840 within the ESPN, and they were out to get you 2:26:02.879 --> 2:26:05.560 from the moment you think that basically you were given 2:26:05.600 --> 2:26:10.040 this job. I didn't. I wasn't allowed to hire anybody 2:26:10.080 --> 2:26:15.080 for a year. I mean, I just that wasn't my choice. 2:26:15.160 --> 2:26:17.320 That wasn't from a lack of people wanting a job. 2:26:17.600 --> 2:26:22.960 That wasn't uh people weren't interested in working with and 2:26:23.040 --> 2:26:27.160 for me, that was I just wasn't allowed to period. 2:26:27.959 --> 2:26:33.800 And uh, you know, I could sit here and and 2:26:35.200 --> 2:26:40.840 there is no first time manager of anything who doesn't 2:26:40.840 --> 2:26:46.160 make mistakes and who doesn't need help managing things. Uh, 2:26:46.480 --> 2:26:51.279 So I don't think I was remotely unusual in that aspect. 2:26:52.440 --> 2:26:55.880 The struggle was just like, for a year, you didn't 2:26:55.920 --> 2:26:59.760 allow me to hire anybody. We sat back and played 2:26:59.800 --> 2:27:02.880 the role of hey, dead Spin can say whatever the 2:27:02.959 --> 2:27:06.760 hell they want about you. Our strategies are gonna be 2:27:07.120 --> 2:27:11.720 don't respond and so and if you do respond, it's 2:27:11.720 --> 2:27:14.720 a sign that you're not the right person for the job. 2:27:15.080 --> 2:27:18.680 And so I was silent and then allowed other people 2:27:18.720 --> 2:27:21.880 to take control of a narrative about who that who 2:27:21.920 --> 2:27:27.359 I was, and they ran wild with it, and uh, 2:27:27.400 --> 2:27:31.400 you know, it was just just running out the clock 2:27:31.720 --> 2:27:37.480 until you had enough excuses, uh to fire me. And 2:27:37.480 --> 2:27:41.480 and they did, and the final piece from dead Spin 2:27:41.680 --> 2:27:46.760 came out on April two thousand and fifteen, which I 2:27:46.840 --> 2:27:50.840 believe is on your birthday. And then the dead Spin 2:27:51.040 --> 2:27:54.160 editor called it a head shot. He went on Twitter 2:27:54.240 --> 2:27:58.880 and called it a head shot. Look, yes, the whole 2:27:58.920 --> 2:28:03.240 thing with dead Spin was very personal for them. Uh. 2:28:03.320 --> 2:28:07.920 And again they had a job to do, destroy me 2:28:08.480 --> 2:28:15.480 and destroy my opportunity to run The Undefeated. And again, 2:28:15.640 --> 2:28:23.400 just if you understand my journalistic perspective, resume brand The 2:28:23.480 --> 2:28:27.920 Undefeated would be far different from what it is today 2:28:27.959 --> 2:28:30.600 if I were running it, and they were not going 2:28:30.680 --> 2:28:35.360 to allow that. There's a there's only one way the 2:28:35.560 --> 2:28:42.440 left wants African Americans to view their situation in America, 2:28:42.520 --> 2:28:46.360 and the only they want everything to be white people 2:28:46.400 --> 2:28:50.240 are in control of your lives and you must fix 2:28:50.320 --> 2:28:53.760 white people for you to have any success in life. 2:28:55.040 --> 2:29:01.560 That's not my view. No, no, and and again it 2:29:01.600 --> 2:29:03.959 goes all the way back to the beginning of my conversation. 2:29:04.280 --> 2:29:08.440 If you know my mother and father, they weren't sitting 2:29:08.480 --> 2:29:12.640 around going, well, let me fix white people and then 2:29:12.680 --> 2:29:16.080 I'm gonna fix my situation. That That's just never been 2:29:16.160 --> 2:29:19.120 their view. I'm gonna go out and get and do 2:29:19.360 --> 2:29:23.000 for me that time, going to fix my problems. When 2:29:23.000 --> 2:29:25.680 my father was on a job at Chrysler and he 2:29:25.720 --> 2:29:29.560 was reading the autobiographer Malcolm X, and the manager complained, 2:29:29.920 --> 2:29:33.080 how come you reading the autobiographer Malcolm X. My father 2:29:33.240 --> 2:29:35.720 made it up in his mind, Oh, anyone gonna tell 2:29:35.720 --> 2:29:39.320 me what book I can read. I'm going to start 2:29:39.400 --> 2:29:42.680 my own business so that no one ever again questions 2:29:42.720 --> 2:29:46.200 me about what I'm doing with my spare time. And 2:29:46.400 --> 2:29:52.840 so that's my mentality. That that's how I was raised. 2:29:53.280 --> 2:29:57.000 My father, it was like the thing you do in 2:29:57.040 --> 2:30:03.279 America is create your own little plot of happiness. And again, 2:30:03.360 --> 2:30:07.800 he liked being in an all black community. Uh built 2:30:07.800 --> 2:30:10.240 a brand new house in the black community, had his 2:30:10.320 --> 2:30:14.880 business in the black community, found contentment and happiness there. 2:30:15.640 --> 2:30:21.520 And again, does does that mean you put up with 2:30:22.600 --> 2:30:26.280 all sorts of abuse and unfairness in the world. Absolutely not. 2:30:27.160 --> 2:30:37.440 But running around doing stories about bs inconveniences, Oh, someone 2:30:37.680 --> 2:30:41.360 did a hand signal behind me at the Cubs game. Therefore, 2:30:41.480 --> 2:30:43.600 let me write two thousand words about it in the 2:30:43.600 --> 2:30:47.400 New York Times. Again, that's the kind of stuff that 2:30:47.440 --> 2:30:51.400 I would have no interest in publishing that the mainstream 2:30:51.520 --> 2:30:55.119 media has an interest in publishing. And I'm talking about 2:30:55.160 --> 2:30:58.039 Doug Glanville, and the PC just wrote in the New 2:30:58.120 --> 2:31:02.720 York Times, uh this week. Uh. That's the kind of 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:06.680 journalism I don't believe in because I don't think it's 2:31:07.720 --> 2:31:14.920 representative of what poor people, poor Black people. Someone hold 2:31:14.959 --> 2:31:19.600 a little okay thumb hand signal when Doug Glanville is 2:31:19.640 --> 2:31:23.480 doing a TV shot. That's not the issue impacting poor 2:31:23.520 --> 2:31:27.760 black people. That's not the oppression they face. And so 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:29.920 I don't want to spend any time. I'm certainly not 2:31:30.000 --> 2:31:33.880 giving up two thousand words for anybody to write about that. 2:31:33.879 --> 2:31:37.880 That's a Doug Glanville elitist problem. Someone did a hand 2:31:37.920 --> 2:31:43.440 signal behind Doug Glanville. That's not Black America's problem. And 2:31:43.640 --> 2:31:49.200 so I just I believe America is the land of opportunity. 2:31:49.280 --> 2:31:52.640 I believe America has sinned like every other country and 2:31:52.680 --> 2:31:55.600 every other human being is put on put on the planet. 2:31:55.920 --> 2:31:59.680 But I believe America is the land of opportunity. And 2:31:59.760 --> 2:32:03.880 you have an opportunity in America unlike most other countries 2:32:04.200 --> 2:32:09.879 across the globe. Two fix your problems and build yourself 2:32:10.040 --> 2:32:15.640 some happiness and opportunity in this country. And I want 2:32:15.640 --> 2:32:17.760 to be respectful of that and I just think too 2:32:17.920 --> 2:32:22.800 much of the mainstream media UH takes that opportunities we 2:32:22.879 --> 2:32:27.119 have here. For granted, UH has a very dumb down, 2:32:28.080 --> 2:32:33.680 UH illogical discussion about race, and I would have wanted 2:32:33.760 --> 2:32:37.800 no parts of that. And I think that's what, you know, 2:32:37.959 --> 2:32:42.000 eventually got me removed at The Undefeated. That's a loss. 2:32:42.520 --> 2:32:46.320 A when is where we started with? Which is you 2:32:46.400 --> 2:32:49.320 now have a show an hour and a half every 2:32:49.400 --> 2:32:55.040 day on FS one which debates and discusses these issues 2:32:55.720 --> 2:33:00.960 in a very intelligent fashion, probably for a bigger audience 2:33:00.959 --> 2:33:04.080 than you could have reached at The Undefeated. That show 2:33:04.200 --> 2:33:07.720 is called Speak for Yourself. You Marcellus Wiley and a 2:33:07.760 --> 2:33:12.279 host of regular guests, for ninety minutes every day try 2:33:12.360 --> 2:33:15.200 and advance the conversation. And people don't always agree with 2:33:15.240 --> 2:33:16.920 you on the show. In fact, some of the best 2:33:16.920 --> 2:33:20.000 parts of the show are when people disagree with you. Uh. 2:33:20.360 --> 2:33:23.160 What are you attempting with the show and what have 2:33:23.240 --> 2:33:27.920 you been able to achieve so far with the show? Well, 2:33:28.400 --> 2:33:33.519 I'm certainly trying to show that there is a conversation 2:33:33.560 --> 2:33:36.920 to be had that I think that people are yearning for, 2:33:37.200 --> 2:33:45.560 which is a more authentic, non PC conversation that is 2:33:46.040 --> 2:33:52.680 you know, and again, the decisions aren't based in race. 2:33:52.920 --> 2:33:56.039 But the reality is, I think that there is a 2:33:56.080 --> 2:34:00.680 conversation that black people have about sport. And again, our 2:34:00.720 --> 2:34:04.000 conversation is an exclusive to black people. But Marcel's and 2:34:04.040 --> 2:34:08.320 I certainly are black, Darnell's black, Offle Jimmy's black, a 2:34:08.400 --> 2:34:10.840 lot a lot of the guest athletes we have all 2:34:10.879 --> 2:34:17.360 our black. I'm trying to have the most authentic, real 2:34:17.520 --> 2:34:21.040 conversation you can have about a lot of these issues 2:34:21.080 --> 2:34:27.440 in sports that are fun, that are inclusive. But I'm 2:34:27.480 --> 2:34:31.880 trying to do it from a black point of view 2:34:32.200 --> 2:34:35.840 without being off put into the mainstream audience, because we 2:34:36.000 --> 2:34:41.680 certainly want the mainstream audience to watch us. Uh. But 2:34:42.160 --> 2:34:46.480 you know, I think I'm trying to do a television 2:34:46.680 --> 2:34:53.400 version of what I wanted to do at ESPN with 2:34:53.520 --> 2:34:57.880 The Undefeated, because I think it's a conversation everyone will 2:34:57.920 --> 2:35:01.160 be attracted to. Every One will feel like they're a 2:35:01.200 --> 2:35:07.200 part of. Uh. But you know, I'm trying to do it, 2:35:07.760 --> 2:35:10.320 I guess from a black point of view. I think 2:35:10.360 --> 2:35:12.280 we're you and I aligned, and we align in a 2:35:12.280 --> 2:35:16.360 lot of different places. Is in skepticism of there being 2:35:16.640 --> 2:35:19.400 a right idea and that if you don't have that 2:35:19.520 --> 2:35:22.360 right idea, you shouldn't be able to share it. Uh 2:35:22.360 --> 2:35:25.560 And that may be oversimplifying things a bit, but it 2:35:25.680 --> 2:35:30.039 seems that there is a predominant right idea that is 2:35:30.080 --> 2:35:32.400 allowed to be voiced in the world of sports, and 2:35:32.400 --> 2:35:35.320 that if you stray outside of those lines, there will 2:35:35.360 --> 2:35:38.280 be consequences for you in a way there aren't if 2:35:38.280 --> 2:35:41.760 you have the quote unquote right idea? Are things getting 2:35:41.800 --> 2:35:44.480 better or worse? First do you agree with that concept? 2:35:44.520 --> 2:35:46.800 And second do you think things are getting better or 2:35:46.879 --> 2:35:50.360 worse in terms of the fullness of conversation that is 2:35:50.400 --> 2:35:53.960 allowed as it pertains to sports. Uh and and and 2:35:54.320 --> 2:35:56.879 more of the of the issues in the country than 2:35:56.920 --> 2:36:02.279 just sports. I certainly think that social media, particularly Twitter, 2:36:03.400 --> 2:36:10.480 has demonized certain opinions that are unworthy of being demonized. 2:36:11.240 --> 2:36:15.240 Uh And I think I think that's impacted all of 2:36:15.280 --> 2:36:21.240 the mainstream media. And I think so many executives for 2:36:21.280 --> 2:36:26.240 a time lived in fear of Twitter and these gend 2:36:26.440 --> 2:36:34.600 up managed Twitter controversies, and I think that that has 2:36:34.959 --> 2:36:40.320 dumbed down and censored the American discourse. I think things 2:36:41.280 --> 2:36:46.520 are starting to get better. I think that when someone 2:36:46.680 --> 2:36:51.800 like Bob Iger uh ceo CEO of Disney for people 2:36:51.800 --> 2:36:54.800 who might not know who he is. Yeah, and and 2:36:54.879 --> 2:37:00.680 he's critical of Twitter and social media and Silicon Ali 2:37:00.920 --> 2:37:04.280 and and saying that. I think he said that social 2:37:04.320 --> 2:37:08.119 media is a place that Hitler would find uh inviting 2:37:08.240 --> 2:37:12.520 or whatever or good or something like that. When things 2:37:12.600 --> 2:37:15.560 like that are happening, when people like Bob Iger are 2:37:15.560 --> 2:37:20.680 waking up to what social media has done to American discourse, Uh, 2:37:21.080 --> 2:37:26.800 I think that's a good sign. I think that we're 2:37:26.840 --> 2:37:30.800 about a year away, I think from the true breaking 2:37:30.879 --> 2:37:38.320 point where uh people feel completely liberated. Uh. You know. 2:37:38.520 --> 2:37:40.480 And so I think in our lane and the sports 2:37:40.520 --> 2:37:47.000 media lane, to see again, Bob Iger and e SDN 2:37:47.720 --> 2:37:50.880 figure this out. I think it's good for all of us. 2:37:51.520 --> 2:37:54.800 I think that Over at Fox, I think that Rupert 2:37:54.840 --> 2:37:59.959 Murdoch and Eric Shankson figured it out a long time ago. Uh. 2:38:00.040 --> 2:38:03.240 But you know, Fox Sports isn't doesn't have the sway 2:38:03.320 --> 2:38:07.720 of ESPN at the moment, although I think that's starting 2:38:07.720 --> 2:38:12.360 to change. Uh. And so yeah, I do think we're 2:38:12.440 --> 2:38:18.160 headed a better direction. Uh. Jason Whitlock on Twitter at 2:38:18.200 --> 2:38:22.080 Whitlock Jason, We've talked a long time today. Is there 2:38:22.120 --> 2:38:24.320 anything that I have not asked you that you wish 2:38:24.400 --> 2:38:28.720 that I had. You've asked me some things that I 2:38:28.760 --> 2:38:35.520 wish you had not. I think that I was not 2:38:35.720 --> 2:38:41.560 prepared to talk about relationships today. Uh So, but no, 2:38:41.720 --> 2:38:46.440 I I I think we've covered a lot. We did 2:38:46.520 --> 2:38:48.400 cover a lot the goal and I want to give 2:38:48.440 --> 2:38:50.680 you the last word here on the show. The goal 2:38:50.760 --> 2:38:54.680 of this show is to discuss wins and losses as 2:38:54.720 --> 2:38:58.200 people experience them in their career. You've had a lot 2:38:58.200 --> 2:39:01.920 of wins, You've also had a lot of losses. What 2:39:02.080 --> 2:39:12.200 have you learned more from? Uh? Probably the losses, you know. 2:39:12.360 --> 2:39:19.920 I think the experience in ESPR uh sharpen my focus 2:39:20.440 --> 2:39:28.800 and made me more resolute in who I've been raised 2:39:28.800 --> 2:39:35.119 to be and more I wouldn't because I've never been uncomfortable, 2:39:35.160 --> 2:39:40.520 but it just maybe even more comfortable that uh, you know, 2:39:40.800 --> 2:39:43.560 and confident about who I am and what my point 2:39:43.560 --> 2:39:47.840 of view is and what I believe in. And so 2:39:48.400 --> 2:39:52.800 it's it's probably been the losses that have helped me 2:39:52.920 --> 2:39:58.520 the most. Uh. But you know, it feels better to win, 2:39:59.280 --> 2:40:03.480 It's it feels better to be, you know, on a 2:40:03.560 --> 2:40:07.680 TV show that's starting to have some success and starting 2:40:07.680 --> 2:40:12.280 to cut through. Uh. That feels a lot better than 2:40:13.040 --> 2:40:16.680 laying in bed wondering why the world is against you. 2:40:19.200 --> 2:40:22.480 It's been Jason Whitlock at Whitlock Jason, go follow him 2:40:22.480 --> 2:40:24.880 on Twitter. I'm at Clay Travis. If you enjoyed this, 2:40:25.040 --> 2:40:28.120 let us know on social media, And if you enjoyed 2:40:28.160 --> 2:40:30.600 this podcast, share it with other friends. There's gonna be 2:40:30.640 --> 2:40:33.440 a lot more of them coming down the line. Again, 2:40:33.640 --> 2:40:36.080 this is Wins and Losses and I'm Clay Travis. Be 2:40:36.200 --> 2:40:38.760 sure to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage with 2:40:38.800 --> 2:40:42.400 Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern three am Pacific 2:40:42.640 --> 2:40:45.400 on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio I