1
00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,760
Speaker 1: This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis, play talks

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,840
Speaker 1: with the most entertaining people in sports, entertainment and business.

3
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:19,799
Speaker 1: Now here's Clay Travis. Welcome into my new long form

4
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 1: interview podcast called Wins and Losses. I am utterly intrigued

5
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,680
Speaker 1: by the degree to which a lot of times in

6
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,040
Speaker 1: this country today we focus only on the end product,

7
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 1: how did somebody end up being successful? We only focus

8
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,199
Speaker 1: on the success. We don't focus on the journey. Uh.

9
00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: To steal a line from Nick Saban, the process is

10
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,400
Speaker 1: often more important than the result. And I don't feel

11
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,440
Speaker 1: like we spend much time on the process, on the

12
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: journey between wins and losses, and also on how frequently

13
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: wins are also accompanied by losses. Very often we only

14
00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,000
Speaker 1: end with the result. And I feel like in a

15
00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,760
Speaker 1: social media age where we've got Instagram and we've got

16
00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 1: cure rated Twitter feeds and Facebook feeds, where people only

17
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,720
Speaker 1: show the good things in life, I feel like the

18
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 1: struggles in life are oftentimes and much more entertaining and

19
00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,000
Speaker 1: much more illuminating and trying to give us a sense

20
00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: of how we ended up where we did. And So

21
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,119
Speaker 1: today's guest, A guy's a good friend of mine and uh,

22
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 1: I am utterly fascinated to hear his full story here

23
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 1: Jason Whitlock. You can find him on Twitter at whitlock

24
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: Jason Jason. I feel like we start these episodes with

25
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 1: people who maybe a lot of people know who you are,

26
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 1: maybe they don't. I feel like a huge percentage will.

27
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,360
Speaker 1: But for those who are listening to this right now

28
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,480
Speaker 1: and don't have any idea, what do you do now? Uh?

29
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: And what's your day to day existence? As part of

30
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: that job? What I do now is I host a

31
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 1: television show on Fox Sports one called Speak for Yourself.

32
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,600
Speaker 1: It's a ninety minutes show airs every day and live

33
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,240
Speaker 1: at noon Pacific three Eastern. I do it in conjunction

34
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 1: with Marcelis Wiley. Uh. You know, we try to have

35
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 1: the most authentic, most non PC conversation that you can

36
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 1: have in sports. We try to keep our viewers ahead

37
00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,440
Speaker 1: of the conversation with big ideas and the analysis of

38
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 1: sports in the sports world that you won't get any

39
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:24,960
Speaker 1: place else. Uh. And so you know, my day UH

40
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 1: typically starts around four am. That's what I wake up

41
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: and start preparing for the show. We have a conference

42
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,240
Speaker 1: call at six am where we started laying out the

43
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: ideas for the show. Between six and nine, I started

44
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,200
Speaker 1: writing my scripts or the monologues I do on the show.

45
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 1: Try to get to work about nine am, meet with

46
00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, the producers on on the team, and then

47
00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,040
Speaker 1: we do the show at noon and it's over at

48
00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 1: one thirty, and just start my day all over again.

49
00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,000
Speaker 1: All right. I'm gonna circle back around to this because

50
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 1: I do find the production of television and all the

51
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,120
Speaker 1: work that goes into it fascinating myself, and I think

52
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,840
Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners will as well. So eventually

53
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 1: we will get back to how you ended up doing

54
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 1: what you do. But before that, I want to go

55
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 1: back in time. So where were you born. I was

56
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:21,800
Speaker 1: born in Indianapolis, Indiana. Uh. Just a good old Midwest kid. Uh.

57
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,320
Speaker 1: And brothers and sisters. What kind of you know when

58
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 1: you were a kid, what kind of lifestyle did you

59
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 1: would you say you had started out? You know, my

60
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 1: parents and me and my brother My parents got divorced.

61
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,640
Speaker 1: I'm the baby of the family. My brothers three years

62
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,720
Speaker 1: older than me. Parents got divorced when I was about

63
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: five or six years old, and my dad remarried and I, uh,

64
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,360
Speaker 1: you know, me and my brother stayed with my mom,

65
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: but I became close to my dad's second family. And

66
00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,640
Speaker 1: I have a step sister who I'm very very close to.

67
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,480
Speaker 1: Don't consider a step sister, just a sister, Yealanda. And

68
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: I also have a stepbrother from that relationship, not as

69
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: close to him, but you know, a lot of affinity,

70
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,480
Speaker 1: but just not as close to him. But so, you know,

71
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: I basically consider you know, me, my brother, my sister. Uh.

72
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: My dad has since passed away, my mom still alive.

73
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:27,240
Speaker 1: But U you know, when my parents got divorced, you know,

74
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,279
Speaker 1: me and my mom and my brother lived in you know,

75
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,680
Speaker 1: in a little bit small apartment in the hood. Uh.

76
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,119
Speaker 1: My mother eventually took a second job and and moved

77
00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 1: us into a working class neighborhood. And that's why I

78
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,400
Speaker 1: mostly grew up until my mother moved. Her job got

79
00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,600
Speaker 1: transferred to Kansas City, and she moved to Kansas City,

80
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: and my senior high school, I moved in with my dad. Alright,

81
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,440
Speaker 1: So when you were a kid growing up, what kind

82
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 1: of student were you in school? Uh? Underachieving one. Yeah,

83
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: I was more of a social animal. I was more

84
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 1: of the class clown, popular guy uh that you know,

85
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:22,760
Speaker 1: flirted with a B minus average C plus average in school.

86
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: I just it's one of my regrets in life, not

87
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 1: taking school as seriously as I should have. What did

88
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,400
Speaker 1: your mom and do You said your mom moved. What

89
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: did your mom and dad do for a living when

90
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,919
Speaker 1: you were growing up? My mother was a factory worker

91
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 1: for Western Electric that they made phones. Uh. You know,

92
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: she was high school educated for a factory worker. My

93
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 1: dad did not finish high school. Uh. Joined the military,

94
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 1: got drafted into the army. Uh. Did that for two years,

95
00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:01,160
Speaker 1: then came home, started working for the Chrysler UH automotive company,

96
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 1: and eventually stopped working there and started his own business,

97
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,560
Speaker 1: a small bar business in the Inner City. Uh. And

98
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,560
Speaker 1: so my dad was a small business person throughout most

99
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,839
Speaker 1: of my life and relatively successful. Ran into some problems

100
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,120
Speaker 1: with the I R s that you know when when

101
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,320
Speaker 1: So when I moved in with him my senior high school, Uh,

102
00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,320
Speaker 1: he was on his ass. The I R S had

103
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 1: taken his business and everything from him. Uh. And so

104
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,560
Speaker 1: that was not the best time. But he eventually got

105
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 1: another bar later in life, and you know, the last

106
00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,719
Speaker 1: five years of his life. You know, it was a

107
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,279
Speaker 1: successful small businessman in the Inner city, you said inner city.

108
00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,800
Speaker 1: So how much interaction, if at all, did you have

109
00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,640
Speaker 1: with people of other races. Was your upbringing almost exclusively

110
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,120
Speaker 1: surrounded in a black neighborhood, black schools or were you

111
00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 1: schools in Indianapolis? What was your situa ation like as

112
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,359
Speaker 1: a kid, you know, as a small kid, Yeah, it

113
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: was all black. When my mother moved us out to

114
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:13,560
Speaker 1: a working class suburb, the school was predominantly white. And

115
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:19,440
Speaker 1: then in eighth grade, uh, black kids from basically my

116
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 1: old neighborhood got bust out to my high school. And

117
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,480
Speaker 1: so I would say by the time, you know, in

118
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 1: eighth grade, I think we were probably around thirty black

119
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 1: my my junior high in high school. When did you

120
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: start playing sports? Oh? I think fourth grade? Fourth grade?

121
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 1: I started playing football organized football. I mean I played

122
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 1: sports my entire life, so as I could hold a basketball, baseball,

123
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 1: or football, but I didn't play or I played organized

124
00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 1: football in fourth grade and immediately started playing with the

125
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: fifth and sixth graders. I played a league up because

126
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,240
Speaker 1: I was I was honestly, I was just too big

127
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: and too good for kids my eye, so automatically, almost

128
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 1: when you started playing football, you were good at it.

129
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 1: I mean relative to other kids your age. Yeah, I

130
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: in in fourth grade, I was probably as good as

131
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,680
Speaker 1: any fourth grader could possibly be. I think I peaked

132
00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,120
Speaker 1: as an athlete, to be honest with you, in eighth grade,

133
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,600
Speaker 1: you are dominating grader. Yeah, five star. I was as

134
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 1: good as anybody. And then it was just all downhill

135
00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 1: from there and ended up just you know, being a

136
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: mid major college football player. Why do you think you

137
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: went downhill that you've gotten fully? Like, are you the

138
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,880
Speaker 1: eighth grader with the mustache? Like you were dominant because

139
00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,560
Speaker 1: you didn't have a mustache. But you know, I was

140
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:47,200
Speaker 1: six ft two hundred and two hundred thirty pounds in

141
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 1: eighth grade, ran on the four by one hundred relay team,

142
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: played middle linebacker and some running back, and just played everywhere. Uh,

143
00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 1: and then I just never got any taller. And uh,

144
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: I just I and not back then, and you know

145
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,760
Speaker 1: yet I'm fifty two. Back then, I didn't I didn't

146
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,200
Speaker 1: realize all the extra things you had to do, particularly

147
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 1: if you weren't going to be six ft four six

148
00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: ft three. I didn't realize all that. And I worked

149
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 1: very hard. I was a captain of my high school team.

150
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,439
Speaker 1: But I didn't work nearly hard enough, it wasn't nearly

151
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,120
Speaker 1: discible enough, and so eventually I think more than my

152
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,560
Speaker 1: biggest grads, Like, damn, if I had corrected my diet

153
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,640
Speaker 1: when I was younger, I could have maxed out as

154
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,320
Speaker 1: an athlete. So did you expect then your eighth grade,

155
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,120
Speaker 1: your dominant Did you think, oh, I'm gonna play in

156
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 1: the NFL, like there's no doubt in your mind? Were

157
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,320
Speaker 1: you thinking that at the time. I wouldn't say there

158
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,400
Speaker 1: was no doubt in my mind, but I definitely thought

159
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 1: I was an NFL player. And I used to practice

160
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: my Hall of Fame speech as a kid. I used

161
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 1: to tell it to my mom. I was, you know,

162
00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm t I was obsessed with football. I used to

163
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,960
Speaker 1: record the Pro Bowl on audio. You had those little

164
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 1: tape recorders or whatever. I would tape recorded and then

165
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: listen to it back. I would take people's Hall of

166
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,800
Speaker 1: Fame speeches and listen to it back and practice, you know,

167
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,719
Speaker 1: because I think back then, they just show you the highlights,

168
00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,079
Speaker 1: like Howard Cosell on Monday Night Football or whatever, show

169
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,440
Speaker 1: you the highlights of people's Hall of Fame speeches. And

170
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with football. And fault. Yeah, I'm as

171
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,840
Speaker 1: good as anybody, and I'm gonna go to the University

172
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,079
Speaker 1: of Michigan or I'm the Purdue or wherever, and I'm

173
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,120
Speaker 1: gonna be this dominant NFL football player. And so you

174
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: go into high school, your captain and your high school team.

175
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,480
Speaker 1: You had some really talented guys on that high school team, right, Yeah,

176
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 1: I had. We had some really you know. Obviously Jeff

177
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,320
Speaker 1: George was the quarterback of my team, and he went

178
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 1: on to be a Number One draft pick. But you know,

179
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 1: I played with a lot of Division one players and

180
00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 1: we were the first, uh to win a state championship

181
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 1: in my high school. And my high school has since

182
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,079
Speaker 1: gone on to become like a really national powerhouse. Every

183
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,760
Speaker 1: year we're pretty much nastally ranked and some years will

184
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,640
Speaker 1: have as many as eight Division one players on our team. UH.

185
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,640
Speaker 1: But we were the first. I we were the alpha.

186
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,000
Speaker 1: We kind of got the ball rolling on turning my

187
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: high school into a football powerhouse. And that high school Indianapolis,

188
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,719
Speaker 1: what's the name of it for people out there, like

189
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 1: Warren Central High School, the Warren Central Warriors, the home

190
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,440
Speaker 1: David Bell four star recruise headed to produe this year

191
00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: how undefeated state champions and I know you're still you

192
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 1: feel really connected to your high school. I mean you

193
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,760
Speaker 1: watch and pay attention to their games when you can still, right, Yeah,

194
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,800
Speaker 1: I watched games online. I went back for the state

195
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,320
Speaker 1: championship game. I'm connected to a lot of the kids

196
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: back there at the high school. You know, the high school.

197
00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: The football team now is you know, overwhelmingly black, and

198
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,680
Speaker 1: it's It's funny. When I was growing up, it was

199
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,600
Speaker 1: conslidered a working class neighborhood, when now my high school

200
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: is kind of on it's just the hood and you

201
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 1: know it's it's a black powerhouse athletically, uh, in football

202
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 1: and basketball. And yeah, I stay in touch with those kids,

203
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,320
Speaker 1: try to help him as best that I can. Uh.

204
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's like the kid Darnell Smith that works

205
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,880
Speaker 1: on my television show now does our social media segment.

206
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,319
Speaker 1: He's a kid that grew up in my neighborhood, played

207
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 1: football at my high school and played football ball stage

208
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: just like me. That you know. I've tracked Darnell ever

209
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,720
Speaker 1: since high school. So this is, uh, this is fascinating.

210
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,480
Speaker 1: So you said your your mom moved to Kansas City.

211
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 1: You're living with your dad in a one bedroom apartment

212
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,640
Speaker 1: when you're a senior in high school. Yeah, what at

213
00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:01,720
Speaker 1: that point in time were your dreams or aspirations? Oh man,

214
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,440
Speaker 1: that's interesting of you know, because by that this is

215
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: my senior year of high school, I've kind of figured out, well, damn,

216
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be this bush or not knocking

217
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 1: on your door, begging you, not knocking on my door,

218
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,680
Speaker 1: not knocking on tru I'm tested about it at this time,

219
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,640
Speaker 1: but it's it's becoming a reality to me that Okay,

220
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be a pro football player. You're a

221
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: shade over six ft and you're an offensive lineman. You're

222
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,199
Speaker 1: gonna go play offensive guard somewhere in the Mid American Conference. Uh.

223
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,679
Speaker 1: And so I didn't know a lot about college. I

224
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 1: don't say this to embarrass my family, but my legitimate

225
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,240
Speaker 1: impression of college at that time was the movie Animal House,

226
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 1: and I just thought, well, hell, I'm about to go

227
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: off to college and have the greatest time in my life.

228
00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 1: I'll study something, I don't know what, I'll study to something,

229
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 1: I'll play a little football, and then I'll get on

230
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,600
Speaker 1: with the rest of my life. And so my original

231
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,560
Speaker 1: major in college was accounting. And that's because I had

232
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 1: overheard my dad say, when you know, when his bar

233
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,520
Speaker 1: business going well, that you know, I got to pay

234
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: my accountant X number of dollars for blah blah blah.

235
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: And so I said, oh, I'll be an accountant. Uh.

236
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 1: I went off to college and then I got in

237
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,200
Speaker 1: the math class at Ball State and I was like,

238
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 1: I won't be an accountant. How long did that did

239
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:41,000
Speaker 1: that revelation take? Uh? Literally, it took one math class

240
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 1: at Ball State for me to say and then for

241
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: it really be like, well, hold on, my dad's account

242
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,760
Speaker 1: was so great, while the hell of the r s

243
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 1: have us living in a one bedroom apartment in the hood.

244
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 1: But it just I just figured out, like, man, this

245
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 1: account sol that's not for me. That doesn't fit my personality.

246
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,840
Speaker 1: I got way too much of a personality to be

247
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: an accountant. And so one of my best friends from

248
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 1: high school, uh was also I think two years ahead

249
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,520
Speaker 1: of me at Ball State, and he was a journalism

250
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 1: major at Ball State. And he said to me and

251
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,800
Speaker 1: goes like, dude, man, you read the newspaper every day,

252
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: you love sports, you should be a sportswriter. Switch your

253
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 1: major to journalism. Guy's named Sean for brush and I

254
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 1: immediately switched my major to journalism. And so at eighteen

255
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: and a half, nineteen years old, I was like, oh, man,

256
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 1: I know exactly what I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be

257
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: Mike Royko. Mike Royko was a columnist in Chicago that

258
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: at one Peep with Surprises. I started reading him. Uh,

259
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 1: probably when I was in fourth or fifth grade, And

260
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 1: so as soon as I switched my major journalism, and

261
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,720
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I'm to be the sportswriting version

262
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 1: of Mike Royko. Now I was also a newspaper reader.

263
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: And for a lot of people out there, that's gonna

264
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 1: be like, who are younger? They're gonna be like, oh

265
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 1: my god, you know sports Pacer. Sports newspaper writing is

266
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: so outdated in many ways. But even now I get

267
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: the New York Times in the Wall Street Journal delivered

268
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: to my house. I enjoy reading both every day. How

269
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,640
Speaker 1: did you come to start reading the newspaper in fourth

270
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 1: or fifth grade? What connected you to it? Uh? The

271
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: Indiana Pacers. H It was. I was a huge Pacer fan.

272
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 1: My dad took me and my brother the Pacer games.

273
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,520
Speaker 1: That was our way of bonding and My dad is

274
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 1: a huge newspaper reader, and so the only way I

275
00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 1: could follow the Pacers was in the inn Appa Star,

276
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: in in Appa's News, and so that's what I did.

277
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, they're particularly they play those late night West

278
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,840
Speaker 1: Coast games or whatever, and you wake up the next

279
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 1: morning and read about it in the paper to trying

280
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 1: to get up to speed. But it was my love

281
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,280
Speaker 1: of the paces that made me read the local newspaper.

282
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,520
Speaker 1: And again for people out there listening, this is how

283
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 1: I got into the newspaper too. I was a huge

284
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 1: Cincinnati Reds fan, and they would oftentimes play on those

285
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 1: West Coast games against the Dodgers, the Giants, whatever. It

286
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,360
Speaker 1: was too late for a young kid to watch, and

287
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 1: so I would get up in the morning and devour

288
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,919
Speaker 1: the devour the box score, right like what happened? Who

289
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 1: got hits? I was a huge Eric Davis fan. Uh

290
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,359
Speaker 1: you know, he was trying to get forty forty home

291
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,159
Speaker 1: runs still forty bases in the same season, and I

292
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,520
Speaker 1: was obsessed with it. So so that was how I

293
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 1: really kind of got into reading newspapers, was seeing my

294
00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,640
Speaker 1: dad read the sports section and wanting to actually see

295
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 1: the box scores. So you're you're reading then, and I

296
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,960
Speaker 1: mean it's kind of a window to the world as

297
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 1: you expand beyond the sports page sometimes, right, Yeah, I

298
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 1: accidentally probably read a different section of the paper, uh,

299
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: and stumbled across Mike Royko and so he syndicated all

300
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: over the countries based in Chicago. And my mother again,

301
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,919
Speaker 1: because I love to read about the Pacers and a

302
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 1: lot of times back in those days and they pay

303
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,879
Speaker 1: all play on the West Coast, the morning paper didn't

304
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 1: have the story and it would be the afternoon paper

305
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 1: that would have the story of the nights before game.

306
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,959
Speaker 1: So my mother started getting the afternoon paper because she

307
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with the Pacers and reading. And so

308
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 1: in the Indianapolis News, they used to run Mike roy

309
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,000
Speaker 1: Coast columns in the A section of their paper like

310
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,879
Speaker 1: three times a week. I don't know what made me

311
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,960
Speaker 1: open up the A section, the non sports section part

312
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,639
Speaker 1: of the paper, but but I did. Right across some

313
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: column he wrote that I think upset me. I think

314
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,479
Speaker 1: I've disagreed with But I just started looking for this

315
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: guy's work because he was fast, senating, he was entertaining.

316
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 1: Its hell, he wasn't pc Uh, he really stuck it

317
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: to politicians, uh and so, and he just had this

318
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: common sense view. And so half the time I fault, man,

319
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: it's the greatest thing I've ever read. The other half

320
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,680
Speaker 1: I kind of disagreed with and thought, man, I can't

321
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 1: believe micro ray Coo said this. But the dude just

322
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:29,199
Speaker 1: struck me as honest and authentic and real. And he

323
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: reminded me to be honest. And I didn't know this

324
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 1: at the time, but later I found I was true.

325
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 1: He reminded me of the kind of people that hung

326
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: out of my dad's bar in the inner city. And

327
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,880
Speaker 1: it's funny because Mike Royko some you know, middle aged

328
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 1: white dude. But I come to find out later in life, like, oh,

329
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 1: Mike roykos family owned a bar in a in a

330
00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: Polish neighborhood, working class neighborhood, and uh, he just like me.

331
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 1: He used to sit on his dad's bar stool and

332
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: just talk to the working class mail man, factory workers

333
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 1: or whatever. And so it started to make sense like, oh,

334
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, even though there's thirty years different problems between

335
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,920
Speaker 1: me and Mike Royko, our perspective was kind of the same.

336
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,199
Speaker 1: We both grew up sitting in our dad's bar, talking

337
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: to working class people, me talking to working class black people,

338
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: him talking to working class white people. But a lot

339
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 1: of our perspective and just authenticity came from the same place.

340
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: How much time do you spending your dad's bar and

341
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: starting at what ages? Uh? I mean, we me and

342
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 1: my brother as just little kids, because my dad had

343
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: a bar called Jimmy's Jay Bar j that was pretty nice.

344
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,919
Speaker 1: My dad built it, him and his brother and a

345
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: couple other guys. They built it by hand themselves, and

346
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: so that's what on weekends when my dad would come

347
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 1: get us, we would, as little kids, go help them

348
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: build the bar, and you know by help me, go

349
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,120
Speaker 1: get me there, go get me that, you know, turn

350
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 1: that music down. Whatever. It was just a way of

351
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 1: hanging around with my dad and being around him and

352
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: so uh once it was built. Uh, during the daytime,

353
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: any weekend we were with my dad. Uh, you know,

354
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: we hung out at his bar. Uh and sometimes even

355
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: at night, but he put us back in his office

356
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,239
Speaker 1: at night and we wouldn't get to actually hang out,

357
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, at night. But during the day we said,

358
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 1: right on the bar stool and all day from you know,

359
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: he'd get there at eleven and would open a noon

360
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: and we might leave at six o'clock. Uh and and

361
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: so that was a lot of my weekend as a kid. Uh.

362
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 1: You know, I idolized my dad. My dad was spectacularly dressed,

363
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: good looking, Billy Dee Williams knockoff. He was kind of

364
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: my idol and you know, hanging out at his bar

365
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: was one of the greatest things that I got to

366
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 1: do as a kid. How many hours would your dad

367
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: work a week? Uh? You know, in the bar business,

368
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: if you're not there counting the money, trust me, somebody

369
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: else is taken it. So he would get there at

370
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: eleven and he would get home about three thirty a

371
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: m uh And again, I want to keep it all

372
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: the way. Really, a lot of that was business, but

373
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: a lot of that, again was my dad was a

374
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: good looking Billy Dee Williams ladies man, and he enjoyed

375
00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: on on the bar. He loved it. And so but

376
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: but yeah, my dad worked six days a week, uh

377
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: at his bar for every day that, you know, except

378
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, get he win a couple of years where

379
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: he was really on his ass, except for those two

380
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: years where he didn't on a bar. But again, at

381
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: that time. He then he worked for someone else that

382
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: was that did on a bar. But my dad, as

383
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 1: far as long as I know, it worked six days

384
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: a week and he pretty much worked from eleven am

385
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 1: till close. So in some way, growing up with somebody

386
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 1: like your dad who had an entrepreneurial spirit and also

387
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: worked hard, I mean that's a work ethic that you

388
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: kind of pick up on, right. I mean you said

389
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: now with starting off the interview, you work a lot

390
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: of hours too at what you do. Yeah. I think

391
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: that that's both my parents. You know. My mother was

392
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: again was a factory worker. Took a second job to

393
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: get me and my brother, uh up out of the hood.

394
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: I don't really remember either one of my parents ever

395
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: missing work. Uh, you know, and it's working and you know,

396
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: taking care of yourself. Providing for yourself was a big

397
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: part of both of their identities. You know. After my

398
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: parents got divorced, my mother was determined, uh, she was

399
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: never going to be dependent upon anybody ever again. Remarry No, Uh,

400
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: she did not remarry, and partially just out of her

401
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: fears independence and she didn't want to make any compromised

402
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: decisions about her son. My dad was irate with my

403
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: This is after they divorced. She was irate with my

404
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: mother about moving us out to uh this working class,

405
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: uh predominantly white neighborhood and school system. My mom my

406
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: dad was you know, very very pro black lived, like

407
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: living in all black environments, like working in all black environments.

408
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: He thought my mother made a us mistake moving us

409
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: out to Warren Central High School. But my mother's was like, look, man,

410
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna have my kids. Me and my kids

411
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: are gonna live in some neighborhood where we don't feel safe,

412
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: and so I gotta feel safe. I'm divorced. I don't

413
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: want my kids in this neighborhood by themselves while I'm

414
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: out working. And I mean, look, it turned out to

415
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: be a spectacular decision, and my father apologized for later

416
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: in life because that was one of their biggest disagreements

417
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: in divorce where me and my brother lived. Uh, and

418
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, it turned into a spectaculars and particularly my

419
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: father got more comfortable once they started busting in. The

420
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: school was more even racially. But uh, you know that

421
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: both of my parents fiercely independent, fiercely hard working, UH

422
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: just didn't want to ask anybody for anything. I grew

423
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: up in Indianapolis, move out to the new school. Did

424
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: you ravel very much as a kid? Did you get

425
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: did you get to go anywhere on vacation? Do you

426
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: remember anything where you were exposed to other than maybe

427
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: the newspaper, television obviously different parts of the country outside

428
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: of the Midwest. Outside of the Midwest. Not a great deal,

429
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: but we did. My mother again a hustler to the end. Uh.

430
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: She took me and my brother to Disney World, probably

431
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: when I was in second or third grade. Uh. She

432
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: saved up a bunch of money the first time I

433
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 1: ever flew. But we flew down to Disney World in

434
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: Florida and Orlando, Florida for a vacation. Probably spent five

435
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: days at disney World. Uh, most amazing experience. I remember.

436
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: I was so afraid to fly. My grandmother gave me

437
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: a Bible to hold in my lap uh as we

438
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: flew down to Florida, and I retrolled onto that Bible

439
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: because I was scared to death to fly and I

440
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: thought we were gonna crash. Uh. That's the biggest vacation

441
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: I can remember. But I can also remember, Uh, my

442
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: mother was friends with a guy that had a limousine service.

443
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: And he loaned my mother one of his limousines, and

444
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: my mother piled up her kids, her sister's kids, and

445
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: her sister, and I said also maybe, yeah, I think

446
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: maybe her brother's kids as well. We all hopped in

447
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: this limousine, probably fifteen of us, and drove the four

448
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: hours to St. Louis and stay with the Six Flags,

449
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 1: uh for like two days a theme park there, and

450
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: I can remember we all went to some fancy steak restaurant. Uh.

451
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: So those are the two big vacations that I can

452
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: remember growing up. But that was about it. Other than that,

453
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: I don't remember leaving Iniapolus too much. Mom drove the

454
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: limo herself. Yes, that's awesome. Now, when you're at Disney World,

455
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: you haven't been outside of Indianapolis very much. You suddenly

456
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: walk into the happiest place on Earth. You said, you

457
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: remember it still well to this day. Did it seem

458
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: like such a culture shock? You're on that airplane, you

459
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: got the Bible, You're afraid you're gonna crash. You land

460
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: in Orlando, Florida had to seem like a crazy place

461
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: compared to in general, you know, Indianapolis, Indiana, just the

462
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,239
Speaker 1: colors and the vibrancy and everything else associated with it.

463
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: I mean that had to be still an eye opening experience, right.

464
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: It was, But I don't know if I had experienced

465
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: it in that way as an eye open I just

466
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: experienced it like this is incredible. I get to get

467
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: on rides every day. At night, my mother would give

468
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: me and my brother five dollars a piece and we

469
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: go to a game room because we stayed at the

470
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: actual theme park and they had some game room, and

471
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: we take those five dollars twenty quarters and that right

472
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: for twenty quarters and just go to that game room

473
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: and have fun every night. We got to go swimming

474
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: every day. I just remember thinking it was the funnest

475
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: four or five days I've ever had my life. And

476
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: it you know, here I am Versuly forty five, forty

477
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: six years later, and I can still remember. Be sure

478
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: to catch live editions if I would kicked the coverage

479
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern, three

480
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio.

481
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: I this is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Here's

482
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: more from his conversation with Jason Whitlock. Okay, so we

483
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: circled around there. But I want to go back to you.

484
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: At you at Ball State. You walk onto that campus

485
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: in Muncy, Indiana, you start off as an accountant, you

486
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: decide you're gonna be a journalism major instead on the

487
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: football field. Were you a disinterested athlete? Were you? They're

488
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: almost aware, Hey, I want to get an education. Now?

489
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: What was your thought process at nineteen years old at

490
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: Ball State? As I said, my Ball process was, I'm

491
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: about to have the Animal House movie experience. And so

492
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: I just remember the first weekend there to be quite

493
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: just getting drunk as hell long and Little King's beers

494
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: and thinking that, Wow, this is amazing. Uh. And I

495
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: remember not being nearly as committed to football as I

496
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: should be. Uh. I came with just the absolute wrong attitude.

497
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: My high school football team was a powerhouse. We were

498
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: nationally ranked and in some ways we had better facilities

499
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: than even Ball State. And I came with an attitude

500
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: that I was better than this place. I should have

501
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: been in some Big ten school. And my attitude was

502
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: just all wrong. I came in out of shape and

503
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: just had a terrible fresh spend year, but had the

504
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: time of my life on campus. Uh. Got a one

505
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: point oh my first semester in college because I barely

506
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: attended classes because I was quite frankly, just hungover and

507
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: disinterested in the whole thing. And just my freshman year

508
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: was just kind of a blur. I was in constant

509
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: trouble with the football coaches and scrambling to try to

510
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: make up for a horrible, horribly bad first semester of

511
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: academics of ball State. But I was just making friends

512
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: and just having the time of my life. When does

513
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: that start to shift? Did you ever commit yourself to

514
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: football at all? Or was it just kind of a

515
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: one ft in process throughout UH Me and the offensive

516
00:31:52,480 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: line coach at that time started a very hateful relationship.

517
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: I couldn't stand the guy. And keep in mind, and

518
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: this is what I was there. I was probably their

519
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: top recruit coming in. They had high expectations for me.

520
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: Great kid captured this nationally ranked football team, and I

521
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: was a major disappointment. And so for two years, ME

522
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: and the offensive line coach just went to war. He

523
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: left took another job someplace else, and so in my

524
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: third year as a Red Church sophomore, I got a

525
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: new offensive line coach, and I just took on a

526
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: whole new attitude. Now, trust before this guy left. I

527
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: tried to quit the football team my second year and

528
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: I called my parents. I called my mom first and

529
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: and told her I was going to quit, and she

530
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: said she was living in Kansas City. She said, well,

531
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: good luck with your dad, because you're sure as hell

532
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: can't come here if you quit that football scholarship. I

533
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: called my dad and looked, there, you know, I can

534
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: come work for you at your bar, and he goes, man,

535
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: you take you. I asked the kids the city, because

536
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: you can't come here if you quit that football scholarship.

537
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: And so that was kind of my wake up moment.

538
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: And shortly after trying to quit and my parents not

539
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: allowing it, UH, the offensive line coach left and I

540
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: got a new offensive line coach, a guy that name

541
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: of Lawrence Cooley, and my whole attitude and approach changed,

542
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: and sure enough, a guy that was playing in front

543
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: of me he quit the team, and the next thing

544
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: you know, I was in the playing rotation and the

545
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: next year I was a full time starter, and you know,

546
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 1: football kind of took off for me for two years.

547
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: Having said that, I played my fourth year with a

548
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: torn a c l UH. That was misdiagnosed by the doctors.

549
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: Was just stretched blah blah blah. Uh, and so I

550
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: ended up my fifth year not playing. One of the

551
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: one of my other biggest regrets of life was not

552
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: playing my fifth year of college because I was just

553
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: I was just tapped out on football and I shouldn't

554
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: have been, and I wanted to focus on journalism and

555
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: preparing for the rest of my life. It's a decision

556
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: I regret, but it's a decision and paid major dividends

557
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: for me. My fifth year school, I was an actual student.

558
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: I started writing for the school newspaper. My grades skyrocketed. Uh.

559
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: It's the It's the only real preparation I did for

560
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: my career was working for the school newspaper. Because again,

561
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,720
Speaker 1: back in those days, all the journalists they'd start taking

562
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: internships as freshman, sophomores, and juniors, and really they would

563
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 1: have worked for the school newspaper for three and four years.

564
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I had that fifth year school where

565
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: I could do the at and and start get my

566
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: journalism career on track and get it started. But I

567
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: really regret not playing that fifth year of football. Uh,

568
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: because once I got away from football, I realized exactly

569
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: how much I loved it and missed it. And but

570
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: but it worked out for me career wise. I don't

571
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: I think if I had played football my fifth year

572
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: in college, I'm not sure I would have made it

573
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: as a journalist. What if your mom or dad had

574
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: allowed you to quit football, what would you be doing now? Oh?

575
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: I probably would have went back to Indianapolis and started

576
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: working for my dad in the bar business. And I

577
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: probably would own my dad's bar, the Masterpiece Lounge, and

578
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: in the inner city of Indianapolis. And my dad, you know,

579
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: my dad's passed on and so I I'd probably still

580
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: be running a Masterpiece Lounge, all right, So you have that.

581
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: Uh And and by the way, do you think that

582
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: would have been a happy life? Do you think you

583
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: would have had regrets? I mean, what, that's a big

584
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: difference between having your own television show as you do

585
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: now on national television and and running a bar in Indianapolis.

586
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: But do you think you would be sitting at the

587
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: bar like questioning your decision making or do you think

588
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: you would have ended up happy as a bar owner too?

589
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: That that's a that's that's tough. But my dad would

590
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: probably say, I would be miserable because he would say, like, oh,

591
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: he that I wasn't really built to run his bar,

592
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 1: and and and because and I really was. My bad

593
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: is one of the toughest human beings I know. And

594
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna say a couple of things that some

595
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: of your listeners probably won't understand. But if you know

596
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: anything about the inner city, and you know anything about

597
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: the kind of bar are my dad ran, you had

598
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: to be tough. People had to be afraid of you,

599
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: and in order to survive or they were in the

600
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: inner city where my dad's bar, people are gonna take

601
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: advantage of you if you were not willing to pull

602
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: out your thirty eight Revolver with the intent of using

603
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: it if someone got out of hand. And my dad

604
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: was that kind of tough and unafraid. I've never I

605
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: my dad carried his third a revolver every day that

606
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: I knew it, I wouldn't want. I don't think I

607
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: was built to be that person to carry a gun

608
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: every day and know that, you know, things could get

609
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: out of hand. And again, I don't want to paint

610
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: the Masteries Lounge to something where something happened all the time,

611
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: because it didn't the bars open three hundred days a

612
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: year or three hundred days of a year. You know,

613
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: some thing may happen once or twice a year, but

614
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: you always gotta be prepared for those one or two times.

615
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: And I'll never forget the my when my dad passed away,

616
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 1: I threw a big party at the Masterpiece Loue. It

617
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: was the last day that the Witlocks owned and operated

618
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: the Masterpiece Louge. It was all illegal. I'm sure if

619
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: the government's listening, we probably get sued. Because my dad

620
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: was dead, we didn't have the liquor lis. But anyway,

621
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: we threw this big party, uh for all. And I

622
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: can remember when I closed up, when we closed up

623
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: the bar at three am, in the back behind my

624
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: dad's bar, right outside in the back, there were like

625
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: three guys just beating the dog shit out of somebody.

626
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: We just as I'm about to lock up in the back,

627
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: I'm just looking at these three guys beat the ship

628
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: out of this dude. And I can remember a lock

629
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: up the place and saying myself, yeah, I couldn't deal

630
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: with this. This is not the life that I was

631
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: built for. Um. And so you know what, I've been happy,

632
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: probably not what I found some contentment, probably, but I

633
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 1: don't think running the Masterpiece Lounge was what I was

634
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: meant to do in this life. You graduate from Ball State,

635
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: it's you got that journalism degree. How did you get

636
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: your first job and what did it pay? I got

637
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 1: my first job basically from begging every newspaper in the

638
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 1: country to even consider hiring me. How, as I said,

639
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: sending out letters like to the newspapers letters, yeah there were,

640
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 1: I don't there was no email in and so you're

641
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: writing letters to damn me, every newspaper in the country,

642
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: reece your resume. Here's examples of my clips. And basically

643
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: everybody told me you're not qualified, and they were absolutely right.

644
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: I had spent one year working for the school newspaper.

645
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: All of my peers at the newspaper had spent three

646
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: or four years. They had done internships with major newspapers

647
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: or local newspapers. I hadn't done any of those things,

648
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: and so I just kept writing newspapers. And finally the

649
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: Bloomington Herald Times in Bloomington, Indiana looked at my resume

650
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: and said, oh man, this guy's a former college football

651
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 1: player and all that, and and the blooms In Here

652
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: Old Times. Their writers remembered me from high school because

653
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: I was such a dominant high school player. The bloom

654
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: Canerild Times ran the most prestigious all state team, the

655
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: Bloomin Herold Top thirty three, and I had been named

656
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: to that and again we were this nasty ran team

657
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: was a couple of sports like, oh man, that's at

658
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: Jason Black and blah blah blah. I wonder we should

659
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: take a flyer on him. And so they offered me

660
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: a part time job at five dollars and twenty five

661
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: cent an hour for twenty thirty hours worth of work

662
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: a week. So you moved to Bloomington, Indiana. Yeah, and

663
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: for twenty or thirty hours a week? Where do you live?

664
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: I lived in a one room efficiency, probably two miles

665
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: from the office, but you know it's blooming because where

666
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: Indian University is, And so I just lived like a

667
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 1: very poor college student, uh, in a one room efficiency

668
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: that you know, it was equipped with roaches and everything.

669
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: I shared it with a few roaches or whatever. But yeah,

670
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: that's down the street from the newspaper in a one

671
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: room efficiency. And you do that for how long? I

672
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: did it for eleven months, and uh, the you know,

673
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: they were right in terms of my qualifications for a

674
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: full time job. Uh, but they were also right that

675
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: I had a work ethic that was going to help

676
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: me improve rather quickly. And so Bob Hammel, Bobby Knight's

677
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: best friend, was the sports editor at the time, and

678
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: I basically just one. I lived in one room efficiency,

679
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: so I just lived at the office. I chewed up

680
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: at the office at eight in the morning, and i'd

681
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: leave at midnight, and you know, i'd go out and

682
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: do my assignments, and they would mark it all up

683
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: and heavily at it and try try to teach me,

684
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: you know, to catch up with everybody else. And I

685
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: did a lot of work on my own. And uh

686
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: so they I did a great job there. I had

687
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: a great work ethic, I had dramatic improvement. Uh. They

688
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: all loved me, but there was no room for me

689
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: to be a full time or triter there. And so

690
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: I the whole time I'm there, I'm writing other newspapers,

691
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: continuing to beg for a full time job or ask

692
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: for a bang. It's not the right word. And eventually

693
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: the Charlotte Observer, because because of I wrote this very

694
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: impressive autobiography about myself. They asked me to write a

695
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: story about myself and I did, and that made the

696
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: Charlotte Observer take a chance on me and offer me

697
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: a chance to try out for two weeks for a

698
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: full time job at the Charlotte Observer. So you've never

699
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: been to Charlotte. Before you get into a car, you

700
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: get onto an airplane, how do you get to Charlotte

701
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: and what did you think when you arrived in that city.

702
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 1: I flew to Charlotte because it's a two week trial

703
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: and it's the first time they've ever done a trial.

704
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: But they said that this autobiore if I wrote was

705
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: so impressive, and they put me in a little hotel

706
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: like a Red ruffin for for two weeks, and I

707
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: worked at the Charlotte Observer and they had with a

708
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: bureau and Rockhill, South Carolina covering high school sports. And

709
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: I did a try out there for two weeks and

710
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: at the end of the trial, they offered me a

711
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 1: full time job at four hundred three dollars a week.

712
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: Four hundred and three dollars a week. So when you

713
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: tell your parents about you know, your job status, what's

714
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: dad and Mom's response when you say you're moving to Charlotte,

715
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: because that's a lot different than you. They're ecstatic. They

716
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: were proud of you. Oh yeah, this is it's the

717
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: Charlotte Observer. Back then, you know, the Charotte Reserver had

718
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: a great reputation. And when you're making five dollars and

719
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: five cents an hour and your parents are still sending

720
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: your little spirit change, you know, four hundred three dollars

721
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: a week, and and what that sounded like a ship

722
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: ton of money to me and them. All right, so

723
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: you do that? How long do you what? What kind

724
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: of work did you do at the Charlotte Observer. I

725
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: covered high school sports and little league sports. And then

726
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: because I was a hustler, I recognized that, you know,

727
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: I can cover these high school sports, and that's one thing.

728
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: But if I really want to move ahead, I got

729
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: to find the niche here that's not being covered there

730
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: will get me some attention. Because when you worked in

731
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: one of those bureaus, they had their own little section

732
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: of the paper, like called the rock Hill Observer or

733
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: something of the York Observers called a local news section

734
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: that's a supplement to the regular paper. Yes, and the

735
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: only way to get any attention was to get into

736
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: the regular newspaper. So what I did is I got there.

737
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: I was like, well, hold on, man, at this time,

738
00:45:55,080 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: rap music is becoming a big deal in American politics.

739
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: And it's like Sister Soldier at that time got into

740
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,399
Speaker 1: it where Bill Clinton was talking about her. And then

741
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 1: at that time, all black kids, including myself, we're wearing

742
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: those Malcolm X hats with the X on the hat.

743
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: And so I started pitching stories to the main newspaper about, hey, man,

744
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: you should let me write a piece about what does

745
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: it mean to wear these X hats? Two kids even

746
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: recognize the significance of the do they know? Is it

747
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: just a fad or do they really know? And they

748
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: I started pitching basically black ideas to the Charlotte Observer.

749
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: They didn't have anybody to execute them, or no one

750
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: even thought this way, and so I did a story

751
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: about kids wearing Malcolm X hats. The singing group Jodice

752
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: was from Charlotte, North Carolina, and they became a big

753
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 1: deal when I was there. They didn't have anybody to

754
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: write about. Jody See this R and B group. I

755
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: wrote a story about. I got Jody See on the phone,

756
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: interviewed and wrote a story about him. UH wrote a

757
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: story about sister soldier Uh Luke, the rapper Luke became

758
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: a big deal. He did a concert in UH in

759
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: North Carolina. I went and interviewed him, wrote a story

760
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: about him. I just started just pitching the main newspaper

761
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: these ideas that no one else would think of. And

762
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: it got me a lot of attention. And it it,

763
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, made me a young star at the Charlotte Observer,

764
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: and that got me a job in ann Arbor, Michigan, UH,

765
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: covering the Fab five for the ann Arbor News. And

766
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 1: so I was only in Charlotte for like fourteen months.

767
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: Did the news find you or did you find them?

768
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: The ann Arbor News contact at me. They they had

769
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: some editor there I think named ed Petti kevit Uh

770
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: that had heard about me and the things that I

771
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: was doing in Charlotte, and so they reached out to me.

772
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: And so you did you immediately know yes, I want

773
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: this job? Did you see the Fab five coming? Uh? What? How?

774
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: How did you make the decision to move from because

775
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: I'm assuming Charlotte's a young, rapidly growing city. You've obviously

776
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: got the voice or the ear of of editors there.

777
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: You're writing interesting stories that no one else is writing.

778
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: Was that a difficult decision? How did you make the

779
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 1: decision to go to ann Arbor? It's very easy decision

780
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: because and I don't want to exaggerate this, but this

781
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: is just facts. No young person ever came to Charlotte

782
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: and did what I did in fourteen months, and I

783
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: would say hidden months. And it was like, holy cow,

784
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: this guy's amazing because I came there not a great writer,

785
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: but they had an editor there and an editing system

786
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: that taught me and really accelerated my writing ability. Guy

787
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: named Bill O'Connor. Got to give him credit. He was

788
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: a hard ass, but he's great editor. My writing accelerated

789
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 1: really quickly. I did all these interesting stories. I crushed it.

790
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: And so after a year of just crushing it, I

791
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: think they offered me a thirty dollar a week raise.

792
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: And I remember what I said. It at me. I go, man,

793
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: you're crazy after what I just did, You're gonna give

794
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: me a thirty dollar a week raise? And and I

795
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: remember they were so upset. They were telling what a

796
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: percentage raised this was, and that I was crazy for

797
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: my reaction, and uh, and then like two months later,

798
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: the ann Arbor News offered me the job that they

799
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: did and it was for thirty five thousand dollars a year,

800
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: which was I think I was making twenty five thousand

801
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: dollars in Charlotte. And when the ant Arvor News offered

802
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 1: me that job and it was covering the Fat Five,

803
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: I was still covering My main job was still covering

804
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: high school sports. When I was in Charlotte. I had

805
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,479
Speaker 1: done all this other work, but there was no real

806
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: promotion and it was just and I can't remember. There

807
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: was a guy and this guy can't stand because I

808
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 1: tell this story all the time. Rich Apple was the

809
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 1: editor of the Charlotte Observer at the time, and he

810
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 1: remember he hunted me down in the main news room

811
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: to tell me what a gigantic mistake I was making

812
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: leaving for the ann Harbor News. And I remember just

813
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: laughing and leaving. But dude, it was covering the Fat Five,

814
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: the Fat Five. This I covered them their sophomore years,

815
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: so they were already this huge, storious freshman and then

816
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: this like bamn, and I get to go to and

817
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 1: up and covered these guys. This is my rocket ship

818
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 1: to the moon. All right, let me hit here, because

819
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: I do think this is instructive. We're talking to Jason Wentlock.

820
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: Appreciate everybody listening. I think this is instructive for a

821
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: lot of people, because I always say this, Looking for

822
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: other jobs if you're happy is an interesting decision, but

823
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: finding out how your current job values you is often

824
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: instructive in terms of where you can go going forward. Right,

825
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: And I've been through this situation. I think a lot

826
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: of people who are listening to us have as well.

827
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: That raise that they offered you was indicative that they

828
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: may be thought your ceiling was not as high as

829
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: you thought it was, right, And so finding out how

830
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: you're valued by your employer, even if you don't like

831
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: the dollar figure, is oftentimes very helpful in allowing you

832
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: to make decisions about what to do and where to

833
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: go forward. Right. I mean, because that is I think

834
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: something that everybody in their life, at some point in time,

835
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: you will think you're worth a lot more money than

836
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 1: you're offered, and you'll have a choice, do I can

837
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: up and take less, or do I potentially go elsewhere.

838
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: My advice a lot of times is when somebody undervalues you,

839
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 1: that's a sign of where they think you can go.

840
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not a bad move to then start looking around,

841
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: because going back to you, if the Charlotte Observer had

842
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 1: doubled your salary, you probably would have stated Charlotte right,

843
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: probably and probably, but maybe not, because again, me and

844
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: the Charlotte Observer had a couple of little just disagreements

845
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 1: because here they come in with the thirty dollar raise

846
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: and I get it in newspaper and based on percentage,

847
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: this is an amazing blah blah blah. But to me,

848
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: the way I interpreted was, y'all won't come off this

849
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: narrative that you're doing me a favor. It doesn't matter

850
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: what work I put in. And because again they made me.

851
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 1: Never in the history of the newspaper had they made

852
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: someone come in and do a two week trial, and

853
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: so that that was already and so I have no problem.

854
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: I'll come in. I got no problem, and I knock

855
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 1: it out of the park during those two weeks when

856
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: they sent me down to offer me the full time job.

857
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say the lady's name because she's not

858
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: a bad person and I'm not saying this to embarrassing,

859
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: but she tries, she tells me in that meeting. You're

860
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: an Affirmative Action higher and you know, we really feel

861
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: good about what we're doing here, and and and literally

862
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: I'm not making this stuff. I go, hey, hey, hey,

863
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 1: I'm not all affirmative Action higher. I just did a

864
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 1: two week trial where I just showed you what I

865
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: can do. So either you're hiring me because I just

866
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: showed you what I could do, but you're not hiring

867
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: me because you're doing me a favor and you're meeting

868
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 1: some affirmative action quota. And she got all taken aback,

869
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: no one. And here I was, this four year old

870
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: in need of a for talk job, talking to her

871
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: this way, and and she got taken aback and and

872
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: and pushed back, and I pushed back even stronger. I

873
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: was like, don't give me no job out of a favor.

874
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: I just came in here and kicked ask for two weeks.

875
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 1: She basically just we agreed to disagree. She gave me

876
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: the job, and that's what motivated me. I was like, Oh,

877
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: they think they're doing me a favor. I'm gonna come

878
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: in here and destroy this place and destroy it with

879
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: my work ethic, not in a bad way, not called

880
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,280
Speaker 1: see anybody problems. But they put it after my first

881
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: year there, they put it in my written evaluation, Jason

882
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: works too much. He needs to do other things besides work.

883
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: But I was so instant that they thought they were

884
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 1: doing me a favor. I was like, I'm gonna destroy everybody,

885
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: and that's what I did. And no one can deny

886
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: it because they've never seen anybody come in one year

887
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 1: that inexperience and do the kind of work get all

888
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: the a one stories they had people working in the

889
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: main knit newsroom that might get one story on the

890
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 1: front page of the Charlotte Observer a year. I did

891
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: it like five times in a six month period on

892
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 1: my as a side job. And so when they come

893
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: with the thirty dollar raise after I just put on

894
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 1: Michael Jordan's displayed for a year, I'm even further piss

895
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: because I'm like, Oh, they won't come off this original

896
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: narrative that they're doing me a favor, and they have

897
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: some little glass ceiling that they have for me, and

898
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: so I was like, Oh, I can't wait to get

899
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,319
Speaker 1: up out of here. I'm gonna show these people. You

900
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 1: go to the news, a smaller newspaper, right, but you

901
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: think because of what the Fab five has meant to

902
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: the culture and the stories of sports in year one,

903
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 1: that that's an incredible story to step into for year two.

904
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: So you walk in to cover Michigan in the middle

905
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: of the Fab five era, and you walk in and

906
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: how many beat writers are covering the University of Michigan

907
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: at the time. Um, I would say day to day

908
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: five or six. You know, you certainly have the Detroit

909
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: Free Press and let Detroit News News, the ad Arbor News,

910
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: and a couple of the other little surrounding newspapers. I

911
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: would say, covered up on a day to day basis.

912
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: Are you the only black guy who's covering him on

913
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: a day to day basis? Uh? Yes, be sure to

914
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: catch live editions if I would kicked the coverage with

915
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 1: Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern, three am Pacific,

916
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: Clay Travis dives deep with Jason Whitlock on the Wins

917
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: and Losses podcast. So, and you're also young in addition

918
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: to being black. You're like two years old at this point.

919
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: So you're not that much older than Chris Webber, than

920
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,799
Speaker 1: Juwan Howard, than Jalen Rose, all those guys, right, You

921
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: not at all. So, just from a youth and also

922
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: from a culture perspective, you probably connect better with those

923
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: guys than most of the people who are covering them.

924
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: That'd be fair to say, no question. I certainly the

925
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: advantage I had is I could hear things others couldn't,

926
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, in term, there was no slang they could use,

927
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: any coded language they could use that I couldn't pick

928
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: up on. There was no body language that I couldn't read.

929
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I could read those kids. I felt

930
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: better than my competition. What was your relationship like with them? Uh?

931
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: Pretty good? Uh, you know, because it was more of

932
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 1: a sparring relationship because I certainly have my point of view,

933
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, not all of it did they

934
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: agree with. Because I remember I wrote a colin It

935
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: was very popular there. The Malcolm X movie I think,

936
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: came out during that time when I was there, and

937
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 1: I wrote a column what would Malcolm X think about

938
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: the Fab five? And it wasn't probably the most positive

939
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 1: thing you could write. Uh, But those guys didn't mind

940
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: sparring with me. They were young and had their own

941
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: thoughts and so, uh, you know. Jalen Rose and uh

942
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: was certainly a guy that's not afraid to speak his

943
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: opinion or whatever. But I gotta I remember what I

944
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: got along pretty well, because I can remember. I wrote

945
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 1: a story where I went and played video games at

946
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: Chris Webber's apartment. I went and played video games with

947
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 1: him and his apartment uh in ann Arbor, and wrote

948
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: a first person story about that of Juwan Howard and

949
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: I out along pretty well. He had a friend named

950
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: Juice that I was very tight with. Uh. Probably Ray

951
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: Jackson as the guy got along with the best. Jimmy

952
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: King was pretty distant. Uh. But it was a good experience.

953
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: But you know, even more than that, or even in

954
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: addition to that, my football coach at Ball State was

955
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 1: a long time Bosham Beckler assistant coach, and so my

956
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: whole Ball State's entire football program when I played there

957
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: was based off the Michigan football program, and so that

958
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: gave me tremendous insight also into my coverage of the

959
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: University of Michigan football team, and so I just I

960
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: went gangbusters in a and Harbor covering the fat Fire

961
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: basketball and the University of Michigan football. I had so

962
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: much interesting insight and so many interesting things to say

963
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: that you know because they are where they start letting

964
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: me occasionally write a column and opinion piece in addition

965
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: to covering the teams, and my column there quickly became

966
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, must read and the biggest thing going in

967
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: that area. What video games you play with Chris Webber?

968
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: Do you remember man I meane I techn Mobol. I

969
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: don't think it was. It may have been tech Mobile,

970
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: I I don't remember. I really don't. Do you have

971
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: any kind of relationship with those guys now? No, it's weird.

972
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: I think Chris Webber and I had some disconnect, probably

973
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: because I didn't like the way he handled that Ed

974
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: Martin situation that got him in trouble. And uh, I

975
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: think I wrote some when he was in the NBA

976
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: during his NBA career. I I wrote some things critical.

977
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: But it's like we follow each other over Twitter. But

978
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: I don't communicate with Chris. I do communicate with Jalen Rose.

979
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: I think we have the mutual respected affinity for each other.

980
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: We're both very close to Isaiah Thomas Um and I'm

981
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: a I'm a fan of Jalen's media career. I've supported

982
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: his school to his Detroit Leadership Academy in Detroit. Uh.

983
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: And when I've seen Juwan back during when the when

984
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: he was playing with the Heat, and so was Lebron James.

985
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: We're very cool. His friend Juice passed away and I

986
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 1: remember talking to him about that, but I can't say

987
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 1: I'm particularly close to any Hum. How many hours a

988
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: day would you say you were working when you were

989
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: covering the beat for Michigan and Harbor. Uh. That was

990
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 1: very intense, and so I would say fourteen hours a

991
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: day because that was so intense and so competitive. Uh.

992
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 1: They the Detroit News had a guy named Jim Spatiford

993
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: that covered the team, who was very good, and for

994
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: some reason, Greg I can't remember Greg's last name, UH

995
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: covered for the Detroit Free Press. Uh. Greg ended up

996
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: being a columnist down in Florida for somebody. I can't

997
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: remember Greg's last Greg Stolda. Uh. Those guys very good,

998
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: very experienced, twenty years older than me, but they were

999
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: very good, had connections which matter in the beat now.

1000
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: In those days. Two, for people out there who may

1001
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,919
Speaker 1: not be aware, you would wake up every morning, look

1002
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: the newspapers of your competitors as well as your own,

1003
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 1: and be like man, I hope I didn't get scooped

1004
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: because the internet doesn't exist, right, and you don't necessarily

1005
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 1: know what those guys are writing. Yeah, you got those

1006
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: new papers delivered to your home, or you r into

1007
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 1: the mailbox first thing every morning to make sure you

1008
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: didn't get your brains beat in the day before. Yeah.

1009
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: Do you remember a time when one of those guys

1010
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: had a story and you were like, odd day, I

1011
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: can't believe that. You know, it had to happen right

1012
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:17,600
Speaker 1: over a couple of years. Yeah, listen, the biggest one.

1013
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: I remember that, and I remember not sleeping for like

1014
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Or Jalen Rose got bleusted at a

1015
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: crack house and I think Grigg Stoder broke that story

1016
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: and I had to chase that story for the next

1017
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Uh, yeah, that's that's one I remember

1018
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: very distinctly. So you're there two years, I think, right,

1019
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: So you're there and you said you sometimes got to

1020
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: write opinion columns. Did you recognize that your opinion columns

1021
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:57,479
Speaker 1: were a strength of yours, like you're obviously the goal

1022
01:03:57,520 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: at that point in time for people who aren't familiar

1023
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: with the the newspaper kind of pecking order. The beat

1024
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 1: writers all want to be in the opinion business, right,

1025
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: and you have to work your way up too deep

1026
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: all but a lot of them, a lot of them do, uh,

1027
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: And you have to work your way up typically to

1028
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 1: the opinion business. There's a seniority scale things like that.

1029
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: Was that a goal and aspiration of yours pretty concretely

1030
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: at that point in time? Yea. As soon as I

1031
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: switched my major to journalism of ball State again, I

1032
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 1: wanted to be the micro roy Co of sports, and

1033
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: so that meant having a column and writing opinion pieces.

1034
01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: And yes, as soon as the first column I wrote

1035
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:37,880
Speaker 1: in Aunt Harbor was uh, Elvis Grback had gotten heard

1036
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 1: at quarterback at Michigan and he had been replaced by

1037
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: Todd Collins, who played very well. And I wrote a

1038
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 1: column saying that Todd Collins should remain michigan starting quarterback.

1039
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 1: And as you got to remember the time, as mundane

1040
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 1: as that opinion sounds today, that's sounded like the hottest take,

1041
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 1: the most daring thing you could ever write in the

1042
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: history of newspapers. For someone to write that Todd Collins

1043
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: should replace Elvis go Back as the full top starter

1044
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: in Michigan, that was a really big deal. And that

1045
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,640
Speaker 1: made the people in Ann Harbor have a big appetite

1046
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: for my column, and my column actually became like the steroid,

1047
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: the great equalizer. That's what made me competitive with the

1048
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: other beat writers is that one they didn't have the

1049
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: opportunity to write opinions, and two my opinions were really

1050
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: provocative and different than Mitch. Album was the king of

1051
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: colin writing, not just in Michigan but across the country

1052
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 1: at that time. And Mitch didn't really delve into opinions.

1053
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 1: He wrote very flowery game stories that tried to evoke

1054
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: emotion or tried to reset the scene of what transpired.

1055
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: There was nobody really writing strong opinions and that market

1056
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 1: at that time, and that, um, you know, put med

1057
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: on equal footing with guys with far more experience in me.

1058
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 1: I should asked this question earlier. Do you remember the

1059
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: first time somebody came up to you and recognized you

1060
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: for something you wrote? Uh, that wouldn't have known you before, right,

1061
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously in the newspaper office they can say, hey,

1062
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: that's a great piece of work or whatever. But at

1063
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: what point do you remember or at what point did

1064
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: it begin to occur where people might come up to

1065
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: you and say, hey, I read what you wrote and

1066
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: have an opinion on it one way or the other.

1067
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: I I don't the strongest memory I have of that

1068
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: isn't a direct answer to your question. When I was

1069
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 1: in Charlotte, I wrote one opinion piece and it was

1070
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: mc hammer was coming to town and he was the

1071
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: biggest deal in rap music at that time, and I

1072
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,080
Speaker 1: wrote as I wrote a column saying mc hammer was

1073
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 1: a terrible rapper and started talking about all the rappers

1074
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: who were better than him, and the local radio station

1075
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: in Charlotte nearly had a heart attack and called me

1076
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 1: and had me on to interview me about the piece.

1077
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: And they just thought that I was a shiny Martian

1078
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: from out of town. I can't believe this guy wrote

1079
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,919
Speaker 1: this blah blah blah, And so that I remember that

1080
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: more so than anyone ever stopping me on the street

1081
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: and saying anything. What was the reaction that the first

1082
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: time you really went on the interview for an opinion

1083
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: piece that you had given the m C. That's actually

1084
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,160
Speaker 1: really interesting. MC hammer is a bad rapper, which, by

1085
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: the way, you were correct. I don't think people right

1086
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 1: now are like, hey, who were the greatest rappers of

1087
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 1: all time. I don't think there's ever been anybody who's like,

1088
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: I think it's mc hammer. It's just amazing that. Again,

1089
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 1: in newspapers back during that time, they had no one

1090
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 1: to write that, and that created such an opportunity for me,

1091
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: because rap was this really big gun. They had no

1092
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: one on staff who could even remotely cover it. And

1093
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: so I can remember that just the reaction at the

1094
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: newspaper and people calling in the newspaper upset or like, man,

1095
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: I can't believe this guy wrote this, and then for

1096
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: the radio station to call me an interview with me.

1097
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,600
Speaker 1: It was. It was an amazing time to be a

1098
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: black journalist with balls back then. All right, so we're

1099
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 1: gonna circle back around to this, but the Elvis Grback

1100
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 1: versus I think it was Todd Collins. I can't even

1101
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: remember that that debate. After you write that column, you

1102
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: walk into the Michigan Football Complex the next time after

1103
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: you've done it, could you feel the attention being different

1104
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: than for other things that you had written before that,

1105
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 1: No question, I was radioactive, and it's like, again, people

1106
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: didn't do that at that time. I mean, that was

1107
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 1: just like people who don't understand this is still a

1108
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 1: big deal. But like, you don't question in the hometown

1109
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: of the newspaper that aggressive very often, you know, sometimes

1110
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: you say like the beat writer has golden handcuffs, like yes,

1111
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: you're there, but you can't really go that far because

1112
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: you've got to show up every day and ask questions

1113
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 1: and and your job is in some way predicated on

1114
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: access right, no question. But I've never been an access

1115
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 1: to journalist, even even though I would create something and

1116
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 1: again I went to Chris Webber's apartment Man Harbor and

1117
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: had the ultimate access. But I've just never been that guy.

1118
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 1: And and that's from it goes all the way back

1119
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 1: to my days as a kid Readeem Apple Star. I

1120
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 1: used to always be upset with the writers because I

1121
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:42,519
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, these guys are writing these stories for

1122
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 1: the coaches and the players. They're not writing them for me,

1123
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 1: the reader. And that was one of the things that

1124
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: when so as I switched my major to journalism, other

1125
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 1: than thinking about Mike Royko, was I was like, Oh,

1126
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: I'm always going to write for the reader. Screw the

1127
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 1: athletes and screw the coaches. And so you know, I

1128
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 1: can't remember all the things that I wrote that but

1129
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: Steve Fisher, the head coach of the Michigan basketball team.

1130
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 1: This dude couldn't stand the sight of me mad, So,

1131
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: I mean, he tried to manipulate everybody to dislike me

1132
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: and be afraid of me. Investment. So just imagine Steve

1133
01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: Fisher whitlock is it Chris Webber's house playing video games?

1134
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 1: And I hate this guy, But those guys had to

1135
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 1: also trust you to bring you into the house and

1136
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 1: let you play video games with him, right, I mean

1137
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:39,240
Speaker 1: on some level, at least back in that time, in

1138
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: or whatever year that was, Chris Webber is not having

1139
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 1: a lot of other reporters. I bet over to play

1140
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:48,879
Speaker 1: video games at his place. Yeah, No, he definitely trusted

1141
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 1: me and definitely moved that. I didn't care that his

1142
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 1: he lived in this plush apartment, right, and I certainly

1143
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: wasn't there to write about how plush his apartment was

1144
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: or whatever. Uh, but yeah, there was a look, man, kids,

1145
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,679
Speaker 1: young people are attracted to rebellion, and I was very

1146
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,120
Speaker 1: rebellious and I upset, you know, the teachers and the

1147
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: head coach, and so that's going to end up making

1148
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: me more attractive to the acts to the athlete. There's

1149
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,040
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. All right, So you're at You're

1150
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 1: at Michigan for two years, you're having success and your goal,

1151
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: as you said, since Mike Royko's columns, you decided when

1152
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: you were in college you wanted to do for for

1153
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: sports what he did for sort of politics, general interest

1154
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 1: in the city of Chicago. I think it was right

1155
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 1: at the time. Um so how do you end up

1156
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 1: getting that first column? This job, the work that I

1157
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: did in Ann Harbor and they reach out to you.

1158
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,800
Speaker 1: You start getting requests from other people who are seeing

1159
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 1: your clippings. At that point in time, the Internet doesn't exist,

1160
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: so you get picked up in other newspapers. Your name

1161
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 1: kind of starts to grow a little bit circulate in

1162
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 1: journal is m circles, and you start to get inquiries

1163
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: from other newspapers. Not I can't look two years is

1164
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: particularly back in that era, that's not a long time

1165
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: on the radar. Yeah, And so I did do a

1166
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: lot of great work that got a lot of attention.

1167
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 1: And again it's like, uh, Dick Bital would reference my

1168
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 1: work while broadcasting a Michigan basketball game. All that kind

1169
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 1: of stuff is big in terms of raising your profile.

1170
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 1: But someone and you can't remember. My mother lived in

1171
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: Kansas City for a time being and someone, a friend

1172
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,080
Speaker 1: in the newspaper business, said, hey, man, I heard they

1173
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: have a columnist opening in Kansas City. You should apply

1174
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: for it. And again, because my mother had lived there

1175
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 1: for ten years, I was familiar with Kansas City. I

1176
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: applied for the comments job and sending my clips and

1177
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 1: a letter explaining and sure enough, you know the sports

1178
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 1: are the knsee started dale By. He was looking for

1179
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:17,160
Speaker 1: a columnist who would come in and shake things up

1180
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 1: and kind of duplicate what I had done in ann Arbor.

1181
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 1: Just come in and be an outspoken voice and a

1182
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:30,000
Speaker 1: guy that was fearless. Uh. And so I probably sent

1183
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: him the letter and heard from him a week later.

1184
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: They probably flew me out for an interview a week

1185
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:41,639
Speaker 1: after that, and probably a week after that they offered

1186
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:45,680
Speaker 1: me the job. How did you get the offer? I

1187
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 1: was at my dad's bar, the Masterpiece louds and uh,

1188
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 1: how that I'm trying. I must have picked up a

1189
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 1: voicemail off my home phone because I called dale Because

1190
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 1: I called dale By back from the Masterpiece lounge, and

1191
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 1: he offered me the job sixty five thousand dollars a year,

1192
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 1: and I can remember shouting to my father's daddy, he

1193
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 1: just home for me a job at the Kansas City

1194
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 1: Start and it was I because I'm an asshole like this,

1195
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: and this is one of the most exciting days of

1196
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 1: my life because I'm just I am who I am.

1197
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,759
Speaker 1: I remember I told dale By Man, I'm not paying

1198
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 1: me enough, but I'm gonna take this job anyway. And

1199
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: so you come back out tell your dad and he

1200
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:48,600
Speaker 1: says what we We have a celebratory drink at the

1201
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 1: Masterpiece Loungs and we just we just think I've died

1202
01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: and gone to heaven. You know, his son is gonna

1203
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: be a columnist here you are. My dad's a big

1204
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: newspaper read Yeah, so I'm gonna be a columnist at

1205
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 1: seven years old. He's gonna make sixty five thousand dollars

1206
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 1: just doing will never ask me for another dime. I'm happy.

1207
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,840
Speaker 1: So at this point in your life, your rise is

1208
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 1: like meteoric, right, because you have gone, in the space

1209
01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 1: of roughly four or five years, from part time work

1210
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: at the Bloomington, Indiana newspaper to now becoming a columnist

1211
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 1: at a major newspaper in Kansas City. I mean that's

1212
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:34,720
Speaker 1: unheard of. I mean, that is that media. I mean

1213
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 1: for people out there who might not understand that rise,

1214
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: how would you classify it? How would you quantify it?

1215
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,280
Speaker 1: Because the newspaper business is so much different now, A

1216
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:45,120
Speaker 1: ton of people who are listening to us right now

1217
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 1: might not really understand that trajectory. Clay. In May of

1218
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:55,320
Speaker 1: n I graduated from Ball State and I am legitimately

1219
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: unqualified for full time work in the newspaper business. For

1220
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 1: years later, I'm a highly qualified columnist for the Kansas

1221
01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:11,759
Speaker 1: City Start. It's you know, it's an unbelievable so many

1222
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 1: people Bob Hammel, Bill O'Connor, uh dale By, you know,

1223
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 1: so many people to think who took a chance on me?

1224
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:27,559
Speaker 1: And I worked really hard? Uh? Why am I thinking

1225
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: of Jeff Larkam, the ed pet of cabs. People took

1226
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 1: a chance on me in Ann Harbor, and it's it's incredible.

1227
01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: In four years again, I put a lot of work

1228
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:41,639
Speaker 1: in and I didn't I don't think I did anything

1229
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 1: for four years other than work. Uh, but you know

1230
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:53,799
Speaker 1: it paid off. And so from May nine to September. Uh,

1231
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: that's a hell of a run. And you know, I

1232
01:16:57,040 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: get to Kansas City in It's like I'm going to

1233
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 1: get to live out my dream of being the microy

1234
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 1: Cole Sports A year in is I mean, did you

1235
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: think that's like that's like unbelievable money. I thought I

1236
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:18,200
Speaker 1: was under paid, just like I told Bill By so Uh.

1237
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: I again, I came there supremely confident. And it's because

1238
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:26,759
Speaker 1: the two years of what I had done in ann Arbor,

1239
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 1: I really know. I just said, Oh, if I just

1240
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: do this all over again, I'm going the results are

1241
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:39,799
Speaker 1: going to be incredible and and literally I think so. Yeah. September,

1242
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:45,559
Speaker 1: in April of nine, they called me in at the

1243
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 1: Kansas City Star and said, hey, man, we've made a mistake. Uh,

1244
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:53,320
Speaker 1: we want to pay you a hundred thousand dollars and

1245
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,559
Speaker 1: we're gonna pay you a hundred twenty five thousand dollars

1246
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:58,400
Speaker 1: in next year and a hundred and fifty year after that,

1247
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:01,800
Speaker 1: and that I didn't ask for it. I didn't know

1248
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 1: they're want to do it. They just brought me into

1249
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 1: the office. But from September until April nine, I just

1250
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:13,560
Speaker 1: I questioned. I mean, I just I just I questioned.

1251
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 1: I set that city on absolute fire, writing about primarily

1252
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 1: the Kansas City Chiefs, the Chiefs, the Royals, the Kansas City, Kent,

1253
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 1: University of Kansas basketball and football, uh, Kansas State, and

1254
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: the University of Missouri. So by set it on fire

1255
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 1: for people out there who don't understand, like you're writing

1256
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 1: calling how many days a week that time four or

1257
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 1: five a week and and I mean it's I'm like,

1258
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:50,679
Speaker 1: it's it's like a machine man every day. I'm again,

1259
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: you gotta understand how sleepy that market was and just

1260
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,479
Speaker 1: how sleepy the newspaper business was for the most part.

1261
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: And it just they just hadn't seen anything like that.

1262
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: And uh, it was funny stuff, serious stuff, uh, football

1263
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: questioning things. Uh it was you know, it's funny. People

1264
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:23,679
Speaker 1: sit up and and say, oh man, you're really hard

1265
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 1: on the Brian James And I just amaged Carl Peterson,

1266
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: the general manager of the Cannessee Chiefs. He has to

1267
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: be laughing. He's like, because I was so hard on

1268
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 1: this dude and and crushed him just repeatedly. And now

1269
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,759
Speaker 1: I would also praise him when good things happen. But

1270
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 1: it's like I laughed at people to think like I'm

1271
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:53,760
Speaker 1: hard and critical of Lebron James. They should go ask

1272
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: Carl Peterson, Marty Shot and Hiro what I did to them,

1273
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 1: and it's but and again not in in my view,

1274
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:05,559
Speaker 1: an unfair way, not in a malicious way. I had

1275
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 1: respect for those guys, and they were really good at

1276
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 1: what they were doing. But like everybody, you know, they

1277
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:17,800
Speaker 1: make mistakes and I was there to pound. So you

1278
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,439
Speaker 1: are driving, I'm assuming almost entirely at this point in time,

1279
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: the conversation among sports fans through your column in the

1280
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,800
Speaker 1: Kansas City Star, what is your what? What is your

1281
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:30,840
Speaker 1: approval rating in the city at that time, because a

1282
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 1: lot of times columns, you know, fifty degree disagree. That's

1283
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:38,400
Speaker 1: literally the job, it's to be strongly opinionated. Were people

1284
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:41,719
Speaker 1: favorable in reacting to you in the city of Kansas City?

1285
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 1: What did other people think of you? What was your

1286
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:50,400
Speaker 1: existence like in that city at that time? It was awesome? Uh, look,

1287
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,080
Speaker 1: I can't There were a lot of people that had

1288
01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 1: strong negative reactions to my opinion, but there were just

1289
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 1: as many people that absolutely loved it. And even the

1290
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 1: people that disagreed with me, I think just enjoyed the process, like,

1291
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 1: holy cow, what's we're not gonna say tomorrow morning? And

1292
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 1: it became an event to go get the newspaper to

1293
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 1: see what you were gonna be talking about at work

1294
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:24,080
Speaker 1: the next day. And particularly like the Chiefs games really

1295
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: didn't end until the next morning until you had read

1296
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: my column on them. And uh you know, I was

1297
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 1: hugely popular in Kansas City. Uh you know. We started

1298
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:43,280
Speaker 1: having events two for me to meet readers the interact

1299
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: with me. Uh you know, me and the Star started

1300
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:49,879
Speaker 1: putting them on where you could win a lunch with Whitlock,

1301
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,960
Speaker 1: where I would take thirty forty readers at a time

1302
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 1: out to lunch and just converse with him. Uh you know,

1303
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,240
Speaker 1: I was, for lack of a better describe, was a

1304
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 1: rock star in Kansas City. And you know, yes, we're

1305
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: there people there that you know couldn't stand me, absolutely,

1306
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 1: particularly if you were someone in power who didn't want

1307
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,840
Speaker 1: to be questioned. Yeah, you didn't like me. But if

1308
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,479
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people there, the mayor Manuel

1309
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 1: Cleaver there was awesome to me. Uh mentord me while

1310
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:27,439
Speaker 1: I was there. Ali Gates the Barbecue Barn, mentord me

1311
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:33,320
Speaker 1: while I was there. Uh Buck O'Neill, the Negro Luis

1312
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: baseball star mentord me while I was there. And we

1313
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 1: had a new Mayor Kay Barnes, very good friend of mine. Everybody.

1314
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:43,680
Speaker 1: I used to throw a Christmas party every year. I

1315
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: bring my mother in and we cooked for everybody. And

1316
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,720
Speaker 1: it started out it was in this condo I had,

1317
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:54,000
Speaker 1: and it started out it was like people. By the

1318
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:58,799
Speaker 1: end of it, fifteen years later, it was six hundred

1319
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:03,720
Speaker 1: people at at the eighteenth and Vine Jazz District, at

1320
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 1: some restaurant where I'm feed and drinking. Six hundred people

1321
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 1: at Christmas. It was you know, it was a great time.

1322
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:14,800
Speaker 1: I loved my time in Kansas City. So are you

1323
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 1: going to basically every game? You're going to all the

1324
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 1: Royals games yourself? You're a columnist, Now are you writing

1325
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:23,759
Speaker 1: those columns inside of the inside of the press box?

1326
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:28,320
Speaker 1: Primarily I'm going to every Chiefs game. I'm going to

1327
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 1: twenty Royals games a year. Look, I'm just gonna not

1328
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: the most passionate Royals fan or baseball fan. I'm sorry.

1329
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:42,639
Speaker 1: And then too, and you would have to have been

1330
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: in Kansas City at this time. I was too rough

1331
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:50,719
Speaker 1: for the Kansas City Royals at that time in terms

1332
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,160
Speaker 1: of the Kandascy Royals. For about the first ten years

1333
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 1: I was there. Euen Kaufman had passed away and a

1334
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 1: trust fun was running the Kansas City Royals. Didn't have

1335
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 1: a lot of money, and my criticism. You almost had

1336
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,679
Speaker 1: to treat the Royals like a charity, and they couldn't

1337
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:19,160
Speaker 1: handle my level of criticism. And so I stood back

1338
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 1: and didn't do as much with the Royals as I

1339
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 1: could have. And then after about two years uh me

1340
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 1: being in Kansas City, I think in nine seven or so,

1341
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:36,280
Speaker 1: the Star hired Joe poz Nancy as another columnist, huge

1342
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 1: baseball fan and expert, and I kind of let him

1343
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:46,519
Speaker 1: be the Royals guy. Uh and I would again. But

1344
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:49,680
Speaker 1: my last three or four years in Kansas City, I

1345
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 1: probably went to ten Royals games a year. Uh. But

1346
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,519
Speaker 1: you know that I just I stayed. You just couldn't

1347
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 1: be as former world that they were treated like some

1348
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:07,400
Speaker 1: little charity organization. If you said anything too serious, everybody

1349
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:10,360
Speaker 1: go winding and crying to the editor and there's up there.

1350
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:16,560
Speaker 1: But so so what I went to all the Chief's games,

1351
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 1: all the big Kansas basketball games, any of the colleges

1352
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 1: they played. I went to a college football game pretty

1353
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 1: much every weekend. Uh. You know that you went to

1354
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:33,400
Speaker 1: the Chief's practices you know everything face to face. I'm

1355
01:25:33,400 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 1: curious on the process of writing. You get to go

1356
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:37,639
Speaker 1: on the road, you're everywhere else. Did you have a pager?

1357
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:40,320
Speaker 1: Did you have a beeper? Like? There aren't cell phones

1358
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 1: for the early part of your career, How did you

1359
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:48,760
Speaker 1: get in touch with people? Oh? I think and we

1360
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 1: may have to hop on the internet, but I think

1361
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 1: by ninety four, I do think cell phones are out

1362
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: there and available. But when you're covering the the Fab five,

1363
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,679
Speaker 1: did they have cell phones? I'm trying to I didn't

1364
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 1: get my first cell phone at all, not the Fab five,

1365
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 1: But I do think by the time I'm in Kansas City, Yeah,

1366
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 1: I do think I'm having a cell phone. And you're

1367
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:19,760
Speaker 1: communicating a lot over cell phone, all right, so, uh

1368
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: the Internet doesn't still exist. Then. All of this so

1369
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 1: far has been about the impact that you can have

1370
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:28,919
Speaker 1: as a part of the written word, other than the

1371
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,880
Speaker 1: MC hammer on the radio rap rap discussion. When did

1372
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: you start breaking in with radio? And do you remember

1373
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 1: the first time you did it consistently? And what about TV? Well,

1374
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 1: as soon as I got to Kansas City, Uh, you

1375
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,559
Speaker 1: know we had sports talk radio there. Yeah. We had

1376
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 1: some old guy, uh named Don Fortune, who was, you know,

1377
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:01,520
Speaker 1: fit the sleepy town uh as much as the newspaper

1378
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 1: did at that time. And so Don Fortune had an

1379
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: instant reaction to me, an instant negative reaction to me.

1380
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:15,000
Speaker 1: And he did the daily sports talk radio show, three

1381
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:20,559
Speaker 1: hour talk show drive time in the afternoon. And it

1382
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 1: was probably the third column I'd written in Kansas cy

1383
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,320
Speaker 1: second or third column I'd written in Kansas City, and

1384
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:36,040
Speaker 1: it was it was am a comedic column about mocking

1385
01:27:36,680 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 1: Kansas and Kandas State football were playing in a ESPN

1386
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: football game that was gonna be televised on ESPN and

1387
01:27:45,960 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: Kanada State may have been ranked twenty three four in

1388
01:27:49,240 --> 01:27:55,479
Speaker 1: the country or whatever, and this is in this is

1389
01:27:55,680 --> 01:28:00,799
Speaker 1: right win Bill Snyder in Kanda State football are really

1390
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:03,600
Speaker 1: starting to elevate their quarterbacks some kid I think the

1391
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 1: named Chad May at the time. And so I wrote

1392
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 1: a piece, uh talking about kind of sarcastically saying what

1393
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:15,760
Speaker 1: a big deal this game is that? Uh, you know,

1394
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:19,799
Speaker 1: Kanada State fans are gonna put on their best clothes

1395
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: tonight and you know, belt buckles, little be twelve ins.

1396
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 1: It was just something just mocking them as country and

1397
01:28:28,200 --> 01:28:31,519
Speaker 1: hill billy and you know, Kansas is kind of the

1398
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:35,479
Speaker 1: elitied school, and it was mocking them as elite and

1399
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:39,080
Speaker 1: the I'm not doing it justice. It was a hysterical piece.

1400
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:44,280
Speaker 1: Don Fortune acted like it was the worst thing in

1401
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:47,440
Speaker 1: the world. And how dare The Kansas City Star published

1402
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:50,240
Speaker 1: this and he called me to have me on his

1403
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:53,320
Speaker 1: no no, no, I was driving to the game. I

1404
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 1: take it back, and I'm listening to this guy on

1405
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:58,200
Speaker 1: radio blast me and I can't believe the Star and

1406
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 1: published this, and so I called into the guy's radio

1407
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 1: show as he's land basting me, and we had a

1408
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:16,720
Speaker 1: big on air argument. Uh uh yeah. And so that

1409
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:21,440
Speaker 1: started a rivalry between me and the Don Fortune guy.

1410
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 1: And then that started some young people and younger people

1411
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 1: in Kansas City to say, man, we need a competing

1412
01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:35,320
Speaker 1: radio station to this Don Fortune. And a guy named

1413
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:39,680
Speaker 1: Chad Bolger and Kevin Keatsman, I would say, within a

1414
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 1: year or two launched some little small signal competition to

1415
01:29:47,240 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: this Don Fortune fifth I think it's called a m

1416
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:56,080
Speaker 1: and they started doing an afternoon show to compete against

1417
01:29:56,160 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 1: Don Fortune, and that I think the next move was

1418
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:03,000
Speaker 1: high me to do a morning show on that station,

1419
01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 1: and so we ended up building this fifteen ten into

1420
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:12,440
Speaker 1: a competition for this Don Fortune who worked for Intercom,

1421
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 1: the national syndicate Intercom Radio that's all over the country.

1422
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 1: We started competing against them, and then that turned into

1423
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,600
Speaker 1: another station that they acquired, and Kansas City ended up

1424
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:29,400
Speaker 1: being a city that had two competing radio stations, and

1425
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:33,679
Speaker 1: I think eventually they fired the Don Fortune and basically

1426
01:30:33,840 --> 01:30:37,759
Speaker 1: and then hired me to go over and compete against

1427
01:30:37,760 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 1: the station that I had helped create. Uh so, yeah,

1428
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: I was a part of the launch of sports talk

1429
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:50,519
Speaker 1: radio in Kansas City. Hopped in it with both feet.

1430
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 1: Continue to write my column do the Radio Deal? How

1431
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 1: how many hours were you on a day on radio?

1432
01:30:56,640 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 1: When you started? You said you were on in the morning.

1433
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 1: Were you on every day? Yeah, Monday through Friday. It

1434
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 1: was a three hour radio show, six to nine to

1435
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:10,160
Speaker 1: ten or six six to nine him. Were you hosting

1436
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 1: it by yourself? Initially started off doing it with a

1437
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:18,360
Speaker 1: guy named Chad Boger, the guy who helped lost the station,

1438
01:31:18,880 --> 01:31:22,240
Speaker 1: and then eventually it turned into Jason Whitlocks neighborhood and

1439
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:25,639
Speaker 1: I hosted it myself. Fox Sports Radio has the best

1440
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:28,479
Speaker 1: sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our

1441
01:31:28,520 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 1: shows at Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the

1442
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:35,160
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app search f s R to listen live.

1443
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 1: The Wins and Losses podcast with Clay Travis continues with

1444
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 1: special guest Jason Whitlock. Al Right, so you've never done

1445
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:45,640
Speaker 1: any radio you know that that I'm aware of, at

1446
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,040
Speaker 1: least other than being a guest. How much different was

1447
01:31:49,120 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 1: doing radio? Did it help your column? Hurt it? What

1448
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 1: did you find as you expanded into a new medium? Uh?

1449
01:31:58,479 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 1: Help her? Hurt my cow them? I think to be

1450
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 1: a thousand for said artists. The only thing I could

1451
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 1: say is that it would hurt my column because again,

1452
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:11,880
Speaker 1: at six to nine in the morning when I started out,

1453
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:16,000
Speaker 1: and I'm still going to sporting events that ended night

1454
01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 1: and waking up and so it's just a lot of work. Uh.

1455
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 1: But it did help elevate my profile. People freaking love

1456
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 1: reading my column in the morning and then tune it

1457
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 1: in my radio station the radio show to tell me

1458
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: what they thought of my column. And so I think

1459
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:42,440
Speaker 1: it overall helped me and you know, the Jason Whitlock brand, overall,

1460
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 1: I think it was good for that. Uh. But you know,

1461
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: and again I did talk radio in Kansas City. I

1462
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: think for eight years, and I eventually got out because

1463
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 1: I and I moved to afternoons with was better for

1464
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:05,920
Speaker 1: my life. But I eventually decided that it hurts my

1465
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:09,559
Speaker 1: number one passion and that was sports writing, and I

1466
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: felt like if I doubted back and just focus more.

1467
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:16,200
Speaker 1: And you gotta remember, by this time, I think I'm

1468
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 1: writing a column for ESPN dot com, I'm appearing on

1469
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:26,679
Speaker 1: the Sports Reporters, and I just think that local radio, Uh,

1470
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:28,640
Speaker 1: for the amount of money they were paying me, they

1471
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:32,000
Speaker 1: were paying me relatively well. But I just felt like

1472
01:33:32,680 --> 01:33:35,519
Speaker 1: if I focused on the writing, I would eventually make

1473
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:39,280
Speaker 1: back up the money. So again, the rise continues to

1474
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 1: be pretty pretty astounding. Um, when did you go on

1475
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:45,200
Speaker 1: television for the first time? So you're good at right?

1476
01:33:45,280 --> 01:33:47,759
Speaker 1: First of all, let me just say this. It's rare

1477
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:51,160
Speaker 1: that people who are good at writing are also good

1478
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:54,639
Speaker 1: at radio. And it's rarer still that people who are

1479
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,920
Speaker 1: good at writing and good at radio are also good

1480
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 1: at TV. You're good at all three, but you don't

1481
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 1: really know if you're any good at TV until you

1482
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 1: get to do it. When did you start to do television?

1483
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:10,519
Speaker 1: How did you get your first opportunity? I think my

1484
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:14,160
Speaker 1: first opportunity came right there locally in Kansas City. I

1485
01:34:14,320 --> 01:34:19,360
Speaker 1: can't remember the year, but the ABC affiliate had me

1486
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:26,559
Speaker 1: come on and do sixty ninety second commentaries. Uh, in

1487
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 1: their sportscast. Why did you write it and then tape it? Like?

1488
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:34,920
Speaker 1: Did you get that? Howe written? I would write it,

1489
01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:38,639
Speaker 1: then we tape it, then it would air later that day.

1490
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:43,719
Speaker 1: Did it once a week, Uh, And wasn't very good

1491
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 1: at it, just to be quite honest. Starting out, I couldn't.

1492
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:53,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't master it. But again it was a training ground.

1493
01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:56,759
Speaker 1: So I probably did it for a year the station,

1494
01:34:56,880 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: and then I became a bit inconsistent because again I

1495
01:35:01,160 --> 01:35:03,600
Speaker 1: was doing radio at the time. I was doing my

1496
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:07,080
Speaker 1: Kndasee Star. I was doing this writing for ESPN dot com,

1497
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:10,599
Speaker 1: and I was appearing on the Sports Reporters, and my

1498
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:14,760
Speaker 1: delivery of it for the local station became inconsistent and

1499
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:19,160
Speaker 1: we just decided to end it. But it did doing that.

1500
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:23,480
Speaker 1: I did that probably for about ten months, right before

1501
01:35:24,240 --> 01:35:27,879
Speaker 1: I started appearing on the Sports reporters in two thousands.

1502
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:32,639
Speaker 1: How did you get the invite to do the sports reporters? Uh?

1503
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 1: Jeremy Schap, Dick Shap's son, was a fan of my

1504
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:43,679
Speaker 1: column in Kansas City and told his dad that, hey,

1505
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:46,560
Speaker 1: you guys should have Jason Whitlock on the sports reporters

1506
01:35:47,720 --> 01:35:54,120
Speaker 1: UH and so that, and you know, Mike Luprica. I

1507
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:58,120
Speaker 1: think if I didn't say this, will will be upset

1508
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:00,639
Speaker 1: because he likes to take credit. He like to say

1509
01:36:00,880 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: he was the person that UH invited me to come

1510
01:36:05,160 --> 01:36:07,160
Speaker 1: on to sports reporters. And I'm sure he had something

1511
01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:10,679
Speaker 1: to do and he had to approve everything UH into

1512
01:36:10,920 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 1: in some capacity because he had that kind of relationship

1513
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:18,639
Speaker 1: with the producer Joe Valerio. But it was Jeremy Shapp

1514
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 1: telling his dad that I would be a good fit

1515
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:24,040
Speaker 1: on the sports reporters for people who aren't familiar. And

1516
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:25,759
Speaker 1: I think there will be a lot of people listening

1517
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 1: right now with the sports reporters. What was it? Why

1518
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:33,559
Speaker 1: was that significant? Well, the sports reporters at that time,

1519
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:42,680
Speaker 1: UH was the premier thing a sportswriter could do. It

1520
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 1: Only the best of the very best got to be

1521
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: on the sports reporters at that time. There there weren't

1522
01:36:49,920 --> 01:36:53,479
Speaker 1: all these There was no part in the interruption, There

1523
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:58,040
Speaker 1: was no first take, there was no undisputed there was nothing.

1524
01:36:58,080 --> 01:37:02,720
Speaker 1: There was the Sports Reporters and Mike Luprica was on it,

1525
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 1: Bob Ryan was on that, Mitch Album was on it. Uh,

1526
01:37:08,320 --> 01:37:13,040
Speaker 1: you had Tony corn Hiser, Mike Wilbon. It was the

1527
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:17,719
Speaker 1: place for the premier sports journalists in America to talk

1528
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:21,640
Speaker 1: on TV about sports. If you got invited onto the

1529
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 1: Sports Reporters, that was that was a signal like, oh

1530
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:27,320
Speaker 1: my god, this guy is one of the best sports

1531
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:31,799
Speaker 1: writers in the country. And for me in nineteen ninety

1532
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,719
Speaker 1: or in two thousand, I think I'm thirty years old

1533
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 1: at the time, or uh is everyone around thirty two,

1534
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:42,360
Speaker 1: thirty three years old at the time, And to get

1535
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:46,280
Speaker 1: invited to particularly be from in the city, because everybody

1536
01:37:46,320 --> 01:37:50,400
Speaker 1: on that show was from the East Coast basically except

1537
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:53,160
Speaker 1: for Mitch Album, who was at the Detroit Free Press.

1538
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 1: And so for them to get someone from the Midwest

1539
01:37:56,080 --> 01:37:59,680
Speaker 1: to come on that show, uh that was a Mitch album.

1540
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:07,200
Speaker 1: It was just a very big deal. Uh Yeah, I was.

1541
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 1: You know, when I started out, I was good. Five

1542
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: years later I was great. I was. To be honest,

1543
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,560
Speaker 1: I was actually too good. And that's what got me

1544
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:23,720
Speaker 1: a cross ways with uh Mike Lupaca and basically got

1545
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,719
Speaker 1: me run off the show. It's you know, Mike Luprica

1546
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:29,200
Speaker 1: is the star of that show, or was the star

1547
01:38:29,280 --> 01:38:34,599
Speaker 1: of that show, and you know he Mike disagreed with

1548
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:39,840
Speaker 1: my narrative on steroids, and because you know, they wanted

1549
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 1: to demonize Barry. Mike wanted to demonize Barry Bonds as

1550
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,200
Speaker 1: if he was the only athlete in the world on

1551
01:38:47,360 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: steroids and if we just routed him out, you know.

1552
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:52,600
Speaker 1: And my narrative was like, no, no, no, no, you

1553
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 1: guys are missed freeding this. If there's money involved, all

1554
01:38:56,840 --> 01:39:00,920
Speaker 1: these guys will use steroids. Then it ain't just very

1555
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:06,479
Speaker 1: violnes it's pervasive. And as things started playing out as

1556
01:39:07,160 --> 01:39:12,559
Speaker 1: what was the cyclist landing Donovan, No, no, that Lansam

1557
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:17,120
Speaker 1: from the other guys before him, the side before Lance

1558
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:20,320
Speaker 1: Armstrong got busted, there was another guy that got busted.

1559
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:24,240
Speaker 1: I don't even remember that guy. Yeah, even if I'm gonna,

1560
01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:26,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look it up at as we talked, but

1561
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 1: he got busted. Then it just started becoming all these

1562
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 1: different athletes and other sports and it became crystal clear

1563
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 1: like my narrative was right. That irritated Lupaca and uh,

1564
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 1: we had a big confrontation on my final episode of

1565
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 1: of of the Sports Reporters and this is on air

1566
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:52,759
Speaker 1: your confrontation, and Joe Valerio told me to go f myself.

1567
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:57,599
Speaker 1: Was it on air, the conversation, the blow up, Yes,

1568
01:39:58,120 --> 01:40:02,480
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it was everything. It was. It was steroid

1569
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 1: related and Mike said something about, well, it's all just

1570
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 1: the w W E or whatever, and then and I

1571
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:18,840
Speaker 1: was like, hey, man, I said something about, you know,

1572
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 1: the E and ESPN stands for entertainment and so at

1573
01:40:24,320 --> 01:40:27,080
Speaker 1: the end of the day, that's all this is. It's

1574
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 1: and again it's it's my narrative hasn't changed. And you know,

1575
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:33,880
Speaker 1: I keep saying on speak for yourself, it's all just

1576
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:38,040
Speaker 1: a television show, and I go, that's what money has

1577
01:40:38,120 --> 01:40:41,840
Speaker 1: done to all of these sports, and you're applying all

1578
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:46,320
Speaker 1: of this integrity and all this other thing. It's just

1579
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:51,840
Speaker 1: a television show. But yeah, we had a pretty It

1580
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 1: was a great conversation, to be honest, and it was

1581
01:40:56,160 --> 01:41:00,960
Speaker 1: fascinating TV. And I remember the Pete, Jim Cohen and

1582
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:03,600
Speaker 1: other people with ESPN like man, that was one of

1583
01:41:03,600 --> 01:41:07,080
Speaker 1: the greatest moments on The Sports Reporters. That was great TV.

1584
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I agree with you, I go,

1585
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:13,160
Speaker 1: but that ain't the way Mike Lubrica and Joe Valerio

1586
01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 1: see it. They're done with me. And you know I

1587
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 1: was right again, it just at that time it did

1588
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 1: not pay to uh disagree with Mike Lubrica on TV,

1589
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 1: so they tell you to go fund yourself. Do you

1590
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:33,240
Speaker 1: have any relationship with them at all? Now? No? Uh,

1591
01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:37,280
Speaker 1: since that conversation thirteen or fifteen or whatever it was

1592
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 1: years ago, you guys basically just ended your relationship. Yes,

1593
01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:45,120
Speaker 1: I've I've certainly. You know, I reached out to Joe

1594
01:41:45,160 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 1: Valerio at the time and he was all upset and

1595
01:41:49,200 --> 01:41:52,599
Speaker 1: never you know, hadn't spoken to me since, and uh,

1596
01:41:52,760 --> 01:41:57,320
Speaker 1: Lubrica made it quite clear that you know, I was disloyal.

1597
01:41:57,439 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 1: And look, I don't want a bad Mountain Mike lub

1598
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:04,559
Speaker 1: because everybody knows what Mike is and what he's been

1599
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:07,519
Speaker 1: and but but I do want to just be facts.

1600
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there were times on that show. Anybody that's

1601
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:13,000
Speaker 1: been on there could tell you, like, if Mike had

1602
01:42:13,040 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 1: a segment where he didn't look the best, he would

1603
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 1: just make you redo the segment because the show was taped.

1604
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:26,200
Speaker 1: So I just didn't read all the bad signals in

1605
01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:31,080
Speaker 1: terms of and again I was deferential with Mike and

1606
01:42:31,120 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 1: all these guys that are older than me to a point,

1607
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:37,800
Speaker 1: but I was not going to a being in my

1608
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:41,000
Speaker 1: opinion that hey, look we're making a mistake trying to

1609
01:42:41,000 --> 01:42:45,320
Speaker 1: single Barry Bonds out here. This steroid thing goes well

1610
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:47,960
Speaker 1: beyond Barry Bonds. And I just wouldn't back off that point.

1611
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:50,360
Speaker 1: Mike wanted me to. He wanted that to be the

1612
01:42:50,400 --> 01:42:53,040
Speaker 1: point of view of the show. And you know that

1613
01:42:53,120 --> 01:42:55,439
Speaker 1: cost me my spot on the Sports Reporters And that

1614
01:42:55,439 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: would have been what what year, roughly two thousand five

1615
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,600
Speaker 1: over six And that show was once a week on

1616
01:43:02,640 --> 01:43:05,480
Speaker 1: a Sunday. Is that right? Once a week on a Sundays.

1617
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 1: And then so it gets uh, you're off television then,

1618
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:11,880
Speaker 1: and you're off radio, I'm assuming by this point too.

1619
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:14,960
Speaker 1: So you just plug yourself back in full time to

1620
01:43:15,080 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 1: the newspaper writing business in the newspaper. Uh. At that time,

1621
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 1: I'm still doing ESPN dot com. But shortly after my

1622
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 1: blow up with Mike and and those guys is when

1623
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 1: I did the interview with the Big lead that ended

1624
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:38,640
Speaker 1: my initial relationship with ESPN dot com. I'm writing for

1625
01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 1: page two and how did you page two? A guy

1626
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 1: named Meal Scarborough was the editor of ESPN dot com

1627
01:43:48,360 --> 01:43:53,160
Speaker 1: at that time, and he hired me, uh to write

1628
01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:57,960
Speaker 1: for page two. I would say in N. I can't

1629
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:00,680
Speaker 1: remember the exact day, but that's a huge collection of

1630
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:02,800
Speaker 1: talent they have at the time, right because they got

1631
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:06,080
Speaker 1: Hunter S. Thompson, They've got to I mean they had

1632
01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:11,800
Speaker 1: a wiley. Yeah. That was that was And that was

1633
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:17,519
Speaker 1: me recognizing that the Internet was going to be a factor.

1634
01:44:17,840 --> 01:44:20,800
Speaker 1: Do you remember a time when you recognize suddenly, wait

1635
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:23,400
Speaker 1: a minute, the Internet is gonna matter? Was there, Aha,

1636
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: crystal ball moment for you? Not really, I just knew

1637
01:44:31,479 --> 01:44:34,759
Speaker 1: that I saw very all men, this pays two things.

1638
01:44:35,760 --> 01:44:39,080
Speaker 1: It's kind of cool and if you want to be

1639
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:43,240
Speaker 1: a player, you need to be in that lane. And

1640
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: look at the freedom and the ability to talk about

1641
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:52,760
Speaker 1: national issues and blah blah blah. And and already by

1642
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:59,360
Speaker 1: newspaper by then was already doing what newspapers do that

1643
01:44:59,520 --> 01:45:03,160
Speaker 1: they just start fighting creativity and just want to be

1644
01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:06,760
Speaker 1: safer and safer and safer. And so I could already

1645
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:10,280
Speaker 1: feel at my newspaper they had already I used to

1646
01:45:10,360 --> 01:45:15,880
Speaker 1: write these hilarious Sunday NFL Picks columns. It was just

1647
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:20,799
Speaker 1: me making sarcastic jokes and did making a game prediction

1648
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. And my newspaper took that away from me.

1649
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:26,200
Speaker 1: And so I was like, Oh, if I'm gonna be

1650
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:29,559
Speaker 1: creative and funny, I gotta find a venue for that.

1651
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:32,800
Speaker 1: And that was page two. And so I just wanted

1652
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:36,200
Speaker 1: to be over there just because I could get another

1653
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:39,799
Speaker 1: side of my personality out. And so then you write

1654
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:42,439
Speaker 1: do an interview with the big lead and I remember

1655
01:45:42,479 --> 01:45:45,960
Speaker 1: this vaguely. What did you say in that interview that

1656
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:51,519
Speaker 1: was so controversial? I said that Mike Lubrica was a

1657
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 1: mean spirit of mean spirited busybody. And I said that

1658
01:45:56,640 --> 01:46:01,240
Speaker 1: Scoop Jackson was bo jangling for dollars or whatever. I

1659
01:46:01,320 --> 01:46:07,200
Speaker 1: was critical of Scoop Jackson, who was writing columns for

1660
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:13,200
Speaker 1: ESPN at that time, and they, for lack of a

1661
01:46:13,240 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 1: better describe, they just worked very well written, they worked

1662
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:20,120
Speaker 1: up to standards or whatever. And he was writing some

1663
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 1: provocative things about race that uh weren't very well thought

1664
01:46:27,520 --> 01:46:29,800
Speaker 1: out and it irritated me and I thought it was

1665
01:46:30,600 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 1: but need the ESPN and and uh, you know, did

1666
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:38,160
Speaker 1: you know? What did you know? What the funt that

1667
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:40,719
Speaker 1: it was? That an email interview? How did you write

1668
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:43,280
Speaker 1: the like to get your It was an email interview

1669
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:47,559
Speaker 1: was going to be provocative at the time, without question,

1670
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: and I knew that it was gonna cost me my

1671
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:54,000
Speaker 1: opportunity to write an ESPN at the time. So you

1672
01:46:54,439 --> 01:47:00,719
Speaker 1: at that, Yeah, at that time, I was book ahead

1673
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:03,880
Speaker 1: done what he had done to me at the Sports Reporters,

1674
01:47:05,040 --> 01:47:13,400
Speaker 1: and ESPN was leaning into the Scoop Jackson deal and

1675
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:24,080
Speaker 1: I was irritated. And there's some really talented qualified uh

1676
01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:27,320
Speaker 1: African American journalists that they could have been leaning into

1677
01:47:28,080 --> 01:47:32,280
Speaker 1: and uh I was irritated and said what I said

1678
01:47:32,280 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 1: in the interview, and you know it is what it is.

1679
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 1: Was that the first so your your career from I

1680
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:43,720
Speaker 1: think it was when you start working at the at

1681
01:47:43,760 --> 01:47:47,600
Speaker 1: the or nineteen nine nine, sorry the Bloomington News to

1682
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 1: all the way up to that interview with the Big Lead.

1683
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:52,960
Speaker 1: Is basically like if you were charting it, it's like

1684
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:55,960
Speaker 1: a stock. You just keep rising, right, everything is going

1685
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:58,400
Speaker 1: really well. Was that the first time? The concept of

1686
01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:00,640
Speaker 1: this interview is wins in Law says, You've had a

1687
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:03,519
Speaker 1: lot of wins at that point. Obviously, didn't necessarily have

1688
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:06,080
Speaker 1: a lot in your athletic career at Ball State, but

1689
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:09,599
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of your professional career, it's all wins.

1690
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:13,479
Speaker 1: Was that the first time you really hit aggressive, you know,

1691
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:18,360
Speaker 1: a situation where you could be described as losing a battle. Yeah,

1692
01:48:18,439 --> 01:48:24,640
Speaker 1: I certainly lost that battle. Uh, But I'll say that

1693
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:27,040
Speaker 1: it was a battle that I was willing to lose

1694
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:34,360
Speaker 1: because I thought I really just wanted to lean back

1695
01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:38,400
Speaker 1: into being a journalist in two thousand and six, two

1696
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:43,400
Speaker 1: thousand seven, and I felt that I was a bit

1697
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:48,679
Speaker 1: stymied at e scre uh and there were other things

1698
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:51,719
Speaker 1: going on politically at ESPN. And when I say politics,

1699
01:48:51,760 --> 01:48:57,880
Speaker 1: I don't mean politics, just office politics that we're going

1700
01:48:58,000 --> 01:49:02,040
Speaker 1: on that we're limiting me. Uh Neil Scarborough, who had

1701
01:49:02,160 --> 01:49:05,440
Speaker 1: hired me, there had been one out of his position.

1702
01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:08,680
Speaker 1: And so uh Neil is now by the way at

1703
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 1: Fox right for people who do and you work with

1704
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:13,880
Speaker 1: him and see him on a regular basis at Fox, Yes,

1705
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:16,479
Speaker 1: he had been one out of his position, and so

1706
01:49:17,200 --> 01:49:21,360
Speaker 1: there was nobody getting credit for my success. Therefore there

1707
01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: was no one interested my success. And which is another good,

1708
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:29,759
Speaker 1: by the way, business lesson for everybody out there listening. Yeah,

1709
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:33,920
Speaker 1: and so I needed to take this l and I

1710
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 1: needed to uh find a different avenue to express my

1711
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:44,400
Speaker 1: creative activity and work with people that would get credit

1712
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:49,679
Speaker 1: for my success. And so I had a dispute with

1713
01:49:51,160 --> 01:49:57,280
Speaker 1: ESPN about the worth of my column to page two

1714
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 1: because I was getting paid much at the time, I

1715
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,240
Speaker 1: was doing it for the access to the platform. And

1716
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:10,040
Speaker 1: so I just I made those decisions, did that of

1717
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:13,320
Speaker 1: here with the big League, knowing that okay, things here

1718
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:18,519
Speaker 1: with the espater over for now. And and I kneel

1719
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:22,320
Speaker 1: at that time had gone over to a O. L

1720
01:50:22,439 --> 01:50:26,440
Speaker 1: Sports at that time, and I knew that he understood

1721
01:50:26,479 --> 01:50:29,040
Speaker 1: the value of my column because when he saw the clicks,

1722
01:50:29,080 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 1: he saw the engagement rate and all that other stuff.

1723
01:50:32,880 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 1: And so I would imagine, I don't remember exactly, but

1724
01:50:37,439 --> 01:50:40,040
Speaker 1: he I think he paid me about ten times more

1725
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:43,880
Speaker 1: for my column than he SCN did uh at A O.

1726
01:50:44,040 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 1: L Sports And uh and so and this had that

1727
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:52,280
Speaker 1: happened around two thousand and six, two thousand and seven,

1728
01:50:52,320 --> 01:50:55,240
Speaker 1: because it was while I was with A O. L Sports,

1729
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:57,760
Speaker 1: I wrote a column in the Kansas City Start with

1730
01:50:57,840 --> 01:51:03,080
Speaker 1: that don I miss Rutgers basketball thing happened and that's probably,

1731
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:07,519
Speaker 1: uh the highlight of the peak of my writing career

1732
01:51:07,520 --> 01:51:11,799
Speaker 1: as a journalists. Uh you know that that column. Oprah

1733
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 1: Winfried liked that column where I talked about how uh

1734
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:19,559
Speaker 1: black people needed to be more concerned with what we

1735
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,240
Speaker 1: thought about each other, more so than don Imus, the

1736
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:24,559
Speaker 1: guy that we don't really care about or know much about.

1737
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 1: Oprah like the column had me on her show talking

1738
01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:32,559
Speaker 1: about that issue for two days, and that column and

1739
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:35,680
Speaker 1: some other ones were packaged together and I want to

1740
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:41,040
Speaker 1: National Journalism Award for Commentary from Scripts Howard that was.

1741
01:51:41,360 --> 01:51:43,960
Speaker 1: That was in two thousand seven, and so that was

1742
01:51:44,080 --> 01:51:48,640
Speaker 1: the peak of my journalism career. All came within the

1743
01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:52,519
Speaker 1: year of me leaving ESP. I don't know if you

1744
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:55,040
Speaker 1: remember this. We didn't know each other at that time,

1745
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 1: but I read that column. If you have, I don't

1746
01:51:57,920 --> 01:51:59,920
Speaker 1: even remember what your email address was. I think it

1747
01:52:00,040 --> 01:52:02,000
Speaker 1: is an A O L dot com email addressed back

1748
01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 1: in the day, but I wrote you an email if

1749
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:08,759
Speaker 1: you still have access to any of your archives before

1750
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:10,439
Speaker 1: we had ever met, saying that I thought it was

1751
01:52:10,479 --> 01:52:13,320
Speaker 1: one of the best sports columns I'd ever read. And

1752
01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:15,120
Speaker 1: and I think I also said hey, and I enjoy

1753
01:52:15,200 --> 01:52:16,880
Speaker 1: I think you were guest hosting every now and then

1754
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,600
Speaker 1: for p t I at that time. Yea, and I

1755
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:21,800
Speaker 1: wrote saying I enjoyed when you set in for Krnheiser

1756
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:24,640
Speaker 1: and Wilbon. And you wrote back and said thanks, but

1757
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:27,240
Speaker 1: you probably don't even remember that. But that is before

1758
01:52:27,280 --> 01:52:29,760
Speaker 1: we ever had met. I had read that column and

1759
01:52:29,760 --> 01:52:31,880
Speaker 1: I'd said, wow, this is a really well done, well

1760
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,920
Speaker 1: thought out column. So that's in two thousand seven. So, uh,

1761
01:52:36,200 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 1: you have now been writing for a long time as

1762
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:43,120
Speaker 1: a daily columnist since and and I think this is

1763
01:52:43,160 --> 01:52:45,800
Speaker 1: interesting for people out there listening. At some point you

1764
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:47,599
Speaker 1: kind of hinted at this. You want to get and

1765
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:51,120
Speaker 1: be able to expand your writing universe. It's great to

1766
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,920
Speaker 1: be in this same thing for doing local sports talk radio,

1767
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:56,920
Speaker 1: but after a while you feel like you've said everything

1768
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,800
Speaker 1: about a local sports market, or at least I did,

1769
01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:02,200
Speaker 1: like you can only talk and I didn't local radio

1770
01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:06,080
Speaker 1: in Nashville. Eventually you get tired, I think of talking

1771
01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:08,000
Speaker 1: about who a certain team is going to take in

1772
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:10,280
Speaker 1: the NFL Draft, which you do for two months on

1773
01:53:10,320 --> 01:53:12,720
Speaker 1: the radio, right, I mean, that's just kind of the

1774
01:53:12,800 --> 01:53:15,840
Speaker 1: natural outgrowth. So did you feel as if you know

1775
01:53:15,920 --> 01:53:18,080
Speaker 1: what I'm ready for a change. How did you come

1776
01:53:18,120 --> 01:53:23,400
Speaker 1: to leave Kansas City? No, I did not. I am

1777
01:53:23,439 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 1: a I love newspapers, yeah, and love feel like newspapers

1778
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:37,040
Speaker 1: back then, and particularly in the nineties two thousand's during

1779
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:43,280
Speaker 1: that time, I felt like it was patriotic to work

1780
01:53:43,320 --> 01:53:47,160
Speaker 1: for a newspaper, and I thought it was a contribution

1781
01:53:47,280 --> 01:53:51,320
Speaker 1: to the good of the country. And so I and again,

1782
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:54,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to be Mike Royko, who was the voice

1783
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 1: of Chicago for thirty years, and that's what I wanted

1784
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:01,360
Speaker 1: to be in Kansas City. What it ended up happening

1785
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:05,160
Speaker 1: over the next three years from two thousand seven to

1786
01:54:05,240 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, is that newspapers just started swinging

1787
01:54:10,920 --> 01:54:17,559
Speaker 1: in a direction that didn't feel like what I got

1788
01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:22,720
Speaker 1: in it for. And you know, newspapers and particularly the

1789
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:27,800
Speaker 1: Star at that time, we're so concerned about these awards

1790
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 1: and these annual A. P. S. C. Awards and all

1791
01:54:31,479 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 1: this other stuff, and just didn't seem prepared to transition

1792
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:41,960
Speaker 1: into this new world that we're living in where the

1793
01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:45,760
Speaker 1: Internet is king. And I suggested a bunch of ideas

1794
01:54:46,560 --> 01:54:49,120
Speaker 1: uh to the Kansas City Star about how we could

1795
01:54:49,120 --> 01:54:51,720
Speaker 1: pivot and what we could do on the Internet, and

1796
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:55,800
Speaker 1: they just weren't interested in them, and that made me

1797
01:54:57,200 --> 01:55:01,000
Speaker 1: reached the conclusion that there was no future for me

1798
01:55:01,080 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 1: in newspapers. And that was again. That was a two

1799
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:07,240
Speaker 1: or three year process that ended in two thousand and

1800
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:11,440
Speaker 1: ten when I left the Kansas City Star moved here

1801
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:14,920
Speaker 1: to Los Angeles to work full time for Fox Sports

1802
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 1: dot Com. What'd your mom say when you left Kansas City?

1803
01:55:21,240 --> 01:55:27,000
Speaker 1: I think she was disappointed and concerned. I think, you know,

1804
01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:30,000
Speaker 1: and keep in mind, by this she had moved back

1805
01:55:30,040 --> 01:55:33,560
Speaker 1: to Indianapolis. Wasn't in Kansas City when I was during

1806
01:55:33,600 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: my career, she was back in but she still she

1807
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:40,360
Speaker 1: would come out for events like yeah, for like when

1808
01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:41,960
Speaker 1: you had the parties at the end of the year

1809
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:46,080
Speaker 1: and things like that. She loved my life in Kansas City.

1810
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:52,440
Speaker 1: Concerned about me moving to Los Angeles, but uh, you

1811
01:55:52,480 --> 01:55:56,840
Speaker 1: know understood, You know that that she understood. I think

1812
01:55:56,840 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: she was concerned. Though. What was the reaction when you

1813
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:06,120
Speaker 1: told him you were leave in the Kansas City Star? Uh? Uh, Well.

1814
01:56:06,280 --> 01:56:12,400
Speaker 1: I did a three hour radio television simulcast called The Explanation,

1815
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:19,040
Speaker 1: Explaining My decisions James of you, Yes, explaining my decision

1816
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:25,440
Speaker 1: to leave and Uh, the reaction was, you know, pretty controversial,

1817
01:56:25,480 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: while because of that three hour explanation was pretty controversial.

1818
01:56:28,920 --> 01:56:36,080
Speaker 1: While but you know, I think I think the candidacy

1819
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:39,480
Speaker 1: star was ready for me to go in in terms

1820
01:56:39,520 --> 01:56:44,520
Speaker 1: of I don't think my point of view at that

1821
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:49,640
Speaker 1: time fit where newspapers were headed. My point of view

1822
01:56:49,760 --> 01:56:57,600
Speaker 1: is very independent and outspoken, and American newspapers aren't very

1823
01:56:57,640 --> 01:57:02,280
Speaker 1: independent thinking anymore. And I just I just didn't sit.

1824
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 1: Be sure to catch live editions about Kicked the coverage

1825
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:08,600
Speaker 1: with Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern three am

1826
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:12,040
Speaker 1: Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio.

1827
01:57:12,560 --> 01:57:16,320
Speaker 1: This is Wins and Losses with Clay Trevis. Here's more

1828
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:20,080
Speaker 1: from his conversation with Jason Whitlock. Al Right, so I

1829
01:57:20,120 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 1: want to ask you this question. We focused almost entirely

1830
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 1: on your professional life so far. You've never been married.

1831
01:57:29,240 --> 01:57:32,360
Speaker 1: Did you date, did you have serious girlfriends? Did you

1832
01:57:32,400 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 1: ever get engaged? Did you ever think like, hey, I'm

1833
01:57:35,480 --> 01:57:38,960
Speaker 1: ready for a domestic life or were you so committed

1834
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 1: to work and obviously you are working almost full time

1835
01:57:42,280 --> 01:57:44,440
Speaker 1: for many of these jobs that you just didn't never

1836
01:57:44,480 --> 01:57:47,360
Speaker 1: have any time for that. What was your life like

1837
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: in the limited amounts of time that you were not

1838
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:59,560
Speaker 1: spending working. I certainly dated. Uh, I was briefly engaged

1839
01:57:59,720 --> 01:58:10,680
Speaker 1: in Kansas City. Uh maybe two weeks? Two weeks did

1840
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:14,960
Speaker 1: get the whole? Uh? Did she call it off? Or

1841
01:58:14,960 --> 01:58:17,440
Speaker 1: did you call it off? No? I called it off.

1842
01:58:17,640 --> 01:58:21,400
Speaker 1: It was it was a horrible decision. Somebody my family

1843
01:58:21,440 --> 01:58:24,240
Speaker 1: and friends liked a lot more than I did, and

1844
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:27,400
Speaker 1: I got talked into it more than I wanted to

1845
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:35,160
Speaker 1: do it. Uh it you know, me and the woman

1846
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:41,320
Speaker 1: probably dated backup forth for ten years. Was a long time,

1847
01:58:43,120 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 1: and so but you know, it was a bad relationship.

1848
01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:55,120
Speaker 1: I should you know, I made some awful decisions relationship

1849
01:58:55,200 --> 01:59:00,480
Speaker 1: wise that have haunted me. Uh you know, and because

1850
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:03,360
Speaker 1: who knows. I doubt you'll ever hear this, but who knows?

1851
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:12,080
Speaker 1: But I I missed out on the two women I

1852
01:59:12,080 --> 01:59:16,240
Speaker 1: should have married because I was you know, on again

1853
01:59:16,240 --> 01:59:20,040
Speaker 1: off her a game relationship with this particular person and

1854
01:59:20,440 --> 01:59:25,840
Speaker 1: could never get all in on the two women that

1855
01:59:26,200 --> 01:59:31,520
Speaker 1: uh I met in Kansas City that I probably one

1856
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 1: of them I definitely should have married, uh and the

1857
01:59:35,040 --> 01:59:38,440
Speaker 1: other one I think I should have but uh, it

1858
01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 1: just in Kansas City. Yeah, I certainly had a long

1859
01:59:43,040 --> 01:59:49,920
Speaker 1: term relationship that uh wasn't wasn't the healthiest. It's fun, uh,

1860
01:59:50,520 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: but wasn't the healthiest and just wasn't the right fit

1861
01:59:53,640 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 1: for me. Mom pressure you to get married, she used to, Uh,

1862
02:00:01,280 --> 02:00:07,280
Speaker 1: but you know doesn't now. Uh, it's it doesn't now.

1863
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:10,680
Speaker 1: I it's kind I did not realize you're gonna ask

1864
02:00:10,680 --> 02:00:16,400
Speaker 1: me to as you and so literally I just had

1865
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:22,560
Speaker 1: a five year relationship just just end over the past week. Uh.

1866
02:00:22,640 --> 02:00:25,920
Speaker 1: And so you're you're you're you're catching me at a

1867
02:00:25,960 --> 02:00:29,520
Speaker 1: at a at a different time. But my philosophy on

1868
02:00:29,680 --> 02:00:36,400
Speaker 1: relationships has it I don't I think been the healthiest.

1869
02:00:36,440 --> 02:00:40,600
Speaker 1: I think if I really did an analysis on why

1870
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:47,600
Speaker 1: I didn't consummate or didn't go full steam on the

1871
02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:51,520
Speaker 1: two relationships that probably would have ended in marriage. Is

1872
02:00:51,640 --> 02:01:00,240
Speaker 1: just I'm so committed to this career that, uh, I

1873
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:04,480
Speaker 1: don't know if I I don't know if I'm the

1874
02:01:04,560 --> 02:01:11,040
Speaker 1: best relationship partner, um for for someone who's right for me.

1875
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:16,960
Speaker 1: And so uh it's something to get you catch me

1876
02:01:17,040 --> 02:01:18,640
Speaker 1: on a weekend. What I've been doing a lot of

1877
02:01:18,680 --> 02:01:22,879
Speaker 1: introspection and a lot of uh trying to figure out

1878
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:26,280
Speaker 1: why I keep doing the same things over and over again,

1879
02:01:26,920 --> 02:01:29,800
Speaker 1: and how I'm not gonna do it again. And there

1880
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:33,120
Speaker 1: are better decisions I want to make. So I just

1881
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:38,800
Speaker 1: my career has been and and an obstacle for me

1882
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:43,800
Speaker 1: relationship wise and my decision making, because I mean, when

1883
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:45,640
Speaker 1: you think you said you wanted to be Mike Royko,

1884
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:48,280
Speaker 1: you've done it. Did you ever think I want to

1885
02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:50,160
Speaker 1: get married and have kids? Do you still think at

1886
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:51,920
Speaker 1: some point I'd like to get married and have kids.

1887
02:01:53,080 --> 02:01:59,520
Speaker 1: I certainly thought I would have kids by this time. Uh.

1888
02:02:00,320 --> 02:02:06,040
Speaker 1: I certainly wanted to have kids, but I think at

1889
02:02:06,120 --> 02:02:08,680
Speaker 1: my age now, I'm not sure if that would be

1890
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:15,920
Speaker 1: right for the kids. Uh. And so yeah, I would say,

1891
02:02:16,760 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, if this podcast as wins and lawsuits in

1892
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 1: order for me to win career wise, I think I

1893
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:30,280
Speaker 1: have sacrificing things personally. And you know, I wish that

1894
02:02:30,400 --> 02:02:33,680
Speaker 1: I had better balance, and I've been trying to have

1895
02:02:33,880 --> 02:02:40,640
Speaker 1: better balance unsuccessfully, uh for the last few years. All right,

1896
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:44,280
Speaker 1: let's go, Um to l A. You moved to l A.

1897
02:02:44,360 --> 02:02:47,400
Speaker 1: You start writing at Fox sports dot Com two thousand,

1898
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:53,560
Speaker 1: two thousand ten. Sorry, how did that go? It went

1899
02:02:53,720 --> 02:02:58,800
Speaker 1: very well? Um. I work with a guy, uh, Steve

1900
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:03,960
Speaker 1: Miller and Ed Brunnle and two thousand and ten and

1901
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:10,640
Speaker 1: they let me just run wild. David Hill was in

1902
02:03:10,720 --> 02:03:15,560
Speaker 1: charge of Fox at the time, and Uh, if you

1903
02:03:15,560 --> 02:03:19,160
Speaker 1: know anything about David Hill, he loves to push the envelope.

1904
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:23,520
Speaker 1: And so I was on Fox Sports dot Com pushing

1905
02:03:23,560 --> 02:03:27,360
Speaker 1: the envelope in every direction it could be pushed. Uh,

1906
02:03:27,400 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 1: and it was phenomenal. I you know, I think if

1907
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 1: you look from two thousand and ten to two thousand thirteen,

1908
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:40,000
Speaker 1: I think I did my best work as a sports columnist.

1909
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:45,200
Speaker 1: Uh it was you know. And again, the stuff I

1910
02:03:45,240 --> 02:03:50,600
Speaker 1: did in Kansas City, I think was phenomenal. And you know,

1911
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:53,160
Speaker 1: it was good enough to win me national awards and

1912
02:03:53,680 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 1: give me on Oprah Winfrey. But in terms of getting

1913
02:03:57,520 --> 02:04:03,640
Speaker 1: my full personality on the play, you know, Steve Miller

1914
02:04:03,720 --> 02:04:06,320
Speaker 1: and Ed Bottle and the people running Fox Sports at

1915
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:10,640
Speaker 1: dot com at that time, they got the best of

1916
02:04:10,640 --> 02:04:15,960
Speaker 1: me for three years. Then ESPN Fox is getting ready

1917
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:19,840
Speaker 1: to launch a new uh, a new network FS one

1918
02:04:19,960 --> 02:04:24,360
Speaker 1: Fox Sports one. ESPN and John Skipper decide We're not

1919
02:04:24,400 --> 02:04:26,920
Speaker 1: going to allow Fox to get good talent. We're going

1920
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:30,920
Speaker 1: to compete for everybody. And they decide, even though you

1921
02:04:31,080 --> 02:04:34,200
Speaker 1: kind of left in not the best terms for me

1922
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:37,480
Speaker 1: ESPN based on that big lead interview. How does that

1923
02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:41,360
Speaker 1: process work that they end up bringing you back? Yeah,

1924
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:47,480
Speaker 1: John Skipper wanted to launch The Undefeated or or we

1925
02:04:47,480 --> 02:04:49,320
Speaker 1: didn't know it was The Undefeated at that time, but

1926
02:04:49,480 --> 02:04:53,640
Speaker 1: wanted to do a vanity website for African American generalists.

1927
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 1: And I think he accurately said, well, I think the

1928
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:04,200
Speaker 1: Black Sports Journal was going to do it, and he

1929
02:05:04,320 --> 02:05:08,800
Speaker 1: identified me to do it. Uh, And then I think

1930
02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:12,160
Speaker 1: and so he offered me the job in two thousand

1931
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:16,920
Speaker 1: and thirteen. And again, if you understand FS one is

1932
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:22,600
Speaker 1: starting their television network, they don't have at that time

1933
02:05:22,880 --> 02:05:26,440
Speaker 1: a full vision for me and what I would do

1934
02:05:26,640 --> 02:05:30,080
Speaker 1: at that time. And John Skipper at that time had

1935
02:05:30,080 --> 02:05:32,240
Speaker 1: a full vision of what he wanted me to do

1936
02:05:32,360 --> 02:05:36,600
Speaker 1: and accomplished and it it played to my strength at

1937
02:05:36,600 --> 02:05:40,000
Speaker 1: the time, which is sports writing and writing and starting

1938
02:05:40,000 --> 02:05:43,839
Speaker 1: that website. And so I moved back over to ESPN

1939
02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:49,200
Speaker 1: to help them formulate and launch, uh, The Undefeated, not

1940
02:05:49,440 --> 02:05:54,080
Speaker 1: knowing that I was stepping into a political ship. Store

1941
02:05:54,240 --> 02:05:58,680
Speaker 1: all right, So this is like up to that point, Um,

1942
02:05:58,720 --> 02:06:02,600
Speaker 1: I think maybe you sent the Jeremy Lynn tweet at

1943
02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:04,920
Speaker 1: some point while you were was that When did that happen?

1944
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:08,520
Speaker 1: That was? That? Was that Fox? When I was at

1945
02:06:08,520 --> 02:06:12,920
Speaker 1: Fox sports dot Com probably in two thousand nine or

1946
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:16,320
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, two thousand eleven, twelve, somewhere around there. Is

1947
02:06:16,360 --> 02:06:18,960
Speaker 1: that up to that point the most controversial thing you

1948
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:23,360
Speaker 1: had found yourself in the middle of. No, the don

1949
02:06:23,400 --> 02:06:26,480
Speaker 1: Imus thing was the most constiut But you didn't you didn't.

1950
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:28,839
Speaker 1: You didn't cause the don You just had an opinion

1951
02:06:28,880 --> 02:06:31,080
Speaker 1: on the don iMOS thing. Yeah, but it was a

1952
02:06:31,200 --> 02:06:37,160
Speaker 1: very controversial opinion that literally, if you really look at

1953
02:06:37,200 --> 02:06:43,280
Speaker 1: my ski at my career, uh, that don Imus column

1954
02:06:43,360 --> 02:06:45,440
Speaker 1: is the one that marked me as a target of

1955
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:48,480
Speaker 1: the left. But in two thousand seven and they, you know,

1956
02:06:48,840 --> 02:06:50,840
Speaker 1: come back came back to haught me in two thousand

1957
02:06:50,880 --> 02:06:54,080
Speaker 1: and thirteen. But yeah, the Jeremy Lynn thing was controversial

1958
02:06:54,120 --> 02:06:56,520
Speaker 1: and certainly a mistake on my part. All Right, So

1959
02:06:56,600 --> 02:06:58,360
Speaker 1: I want to circle back around to the Oprah thing,

1960
02:06:58,520 --> 02:07:01,520
Speaker 1: Like you go on Oprah. Oprah and now has become

1961
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:06,480
Speaker 1: super woke, right, but she is a you know, at

1962
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:09,560
Speaker 1: the absolute apex of her powers at the time that

1963
02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:12,920
Speaker 1: she has you on to talk about the don Imus controversy,

1964
02:07:13,000 --> 02:07:16,320
Speaker 1: and she was in agreeance right with very much of

1965
02:07:16,360 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 1: the tone of your column. If I remember correctly, then

1966
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:22,800
Speaker 1: am I am I thinking about that wrong? Yeah? Oprah

1967
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:26,080
Speaker 1: basically had me on to represent and again this is

1968
02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:28,560
Speaker 1: not what she told me, but it was clear by

1969
02:07:28,600 --> 02:07:31,320
Speaker 1: what she did she had me wanted to represent her

1970
02:07:31,360 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 1: point of view. Again, it's it's one of those the

1971
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 1: Oprah in her spot, she let off signals for years

1972
02:07:39,880 --> 02:07:43,360
Speaker 1: that that was her point of view, but to argue

1973
02:07:43,400 --> 02:07:47,960
Speaker 1: it in full, in detail, she couldn't do it and

1974
02:07:48,080 --> 02:07:52,040
Speaker 1: keep her job and to stay non polarizing, and so

1975
02:07:53,040 --> 02:07:56,720
Speaker 1: uh with that Imus thinging hit, it was like, Okay, Whitlock,

1976
02:07:56,800 --> 02:07:59,280
Speaker 1: we're representing my point of view and he'll argue my

1977
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:03,320
Speaker 1: my side of it. And I probably I contend she

1978
02:08:03,400 --> 02:08:07,040
Speaker 1: still feels the same way. I don't think she's changed

1979
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:11,760
Speaker 1: on that. I do think corporate America and you know,

1980
02:08:11,840 --> 02:08:16,760
Speaker 1: what they're willing to support has possibly made Oprah appear

1981
02:08:17,520 --> 02:08:20,320
Speaker 1: more woke than what she asked what she actually is.

1982
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:22,000
Speaker 1: Let me say this too, because I bet there's some

1983
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:24,360
Speaker 1: people out there who are listening to us that are young,

1984
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:28,120
Speaker 1: because I forget how old we've become now, who don't

1985
02:08:28,120 --> 02:08:30,520
Speaker 1: know anything about the don Imus controversy. So I just

1986
02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:32,960
Speaker 1: pulled up on Wikipedia and I'm reading off of this.

1987
02:08:33,480 --> 02:08:36,720
Speaker 1: On April four, two thousand seven, during a discussion about

1988
02:08:36,760 --> 02:08:39,840
Speaker 1: the n C Double A Women's basketball Championship, I must

1989
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:44,960
Speaker 1: characterize the Rutgers University women's basketball team players as quote

1990
02:08:45,360 --> 02:08:49,280
Speaker 1: rough girls commenting on their tattoos. Again, this is Wikipedia

1991
02:08:49,280 --> 02:08:53,600
Speaker 1: that I'm reading from. His executive producer responded by referring

1992
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:58,080
Speaker 1: to them as quote hardcore hose. The discussion continued with

1993
02:08:58,240 --> 02:09:02,520
Speaker 1: I must describing the women as nappy headed hose. Uh.

1994
02:09:02,560 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 1: And so that was an immediate outrage, right like um

1995
02:09:07,360 --> 02:09:10,320
Speaker 1: and and so that just kind of blew up into

1996
02:09:10,480 --> 02:09:13,280
Speaker 1: a massive for people out there who eleven years, twelve

1997
02:09:13,360 --> 02:09:16,640
Speaker 1: years after this maybe weren't aware of that story or

1998
02:09:16,640 --> 02:09:19,680
Speaker 1: don't even really remember that much about Imus. This turned

1999
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:25,160
Speaker 1: into a huge cultural flashpoint. Yes, and my opinion was

2000
02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:29,320
Speaker 1: that he, look, din Imus is an idiot. What he

2001
02:09:29,400 --> 02:09:34,600
Speaker 1: said is stupid, but he has no relevance or traction

2002
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:39,880
Speaker 1: in our community, the African Americans community. Most people will

2003
02:09:39,920 --> 02:09:44,920
Speaker 1: need to explain to them who died Imus is. And

2004
02:09:44,960 --> 02:09:47,840
Speaker 1: I was like, what we need to be concerned about

2005
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:51,000
Speaker 1: is how we feel about each other. And I go.

2006
02:09:51,280 --> 02:09:54,600
Speaker 1: You can turn on any rap song and here far

2007
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:59,200
Speaker 1: worse said about African American women than anything don Imus

2008
02:09:59,240 --> 02:10:02,520
Speaker 1: just said. That was my opinion, man, is still my

2009
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:10,000
Speaker 1: opinion now, and that was a very controversial view that

2010
02:10:10,440 --> 02:10:13,760
Speaker 1: in my view, Oprah agreed with and had me on

2011
02:10:13,800 --> 02:10:16,800
Speaker 1: the show to talk about. But you think that opinion,

2012
02:10:16,920 --> 02:10:19,960
Speaker 1: which is again the Jeremy Lynn thing, you made a joke.

2013
02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:22,800
Speaker 1: It's on Twitter like and you know that can blow up,

2014
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:26,720
Speaker 1: as these Twitter controversies do, but you think that it

2015
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:30,200
Speaker 1: was more than don Imus opinion that really kind of

2016
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:33,280
Speaker 1: put you in the for lack of a better term,

2017
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:37,560
Speaker 1: like in the purview or the target range of left

2018
02:10:37,600 --> 02:10:40,760
Speaker 1: wing people in America question and put me in the

2019
02:10:40,760 --> 02:10:46,080
Speaker 1: crosshairs of the left wing because I'm someone if you

2020
02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:50,120
Speaker 1: look at the national journalism wars I've wanted, if you

2021
02:10:50,240 --> 02:10:55,640
Speaker 1: look at again being on the sports reporters out of

2022
02:10:55,640 --> 02:11:01,640
Speaker 1: the Midwest and what that conveys at that time, the Clay,

2023
02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:04,400
Speaker 1: It's a very short list if there are any any

2024
02:11:04,480 --> 02:11:09,160
Speaker 1: sports writers who were ever on the Oprah Winfrey show.

2025
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:12,920
Speaker 1: Maybe Mitch Album promoting one of his Tusie with Marie

2026
02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:19,160
Speaker 1: type books. But Oprah Winfrey during her Heyday didn't have

2027
02:11:19,240 --> 02:11:24,040
Speaker 1: sportswriters on her show, and so I was being raised

2028
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:29,280
Speaker 1: to a level of importance and had a message that

2029
02:11:29,440 --> 02:11:33,920
Speaker 1: the left just doesn't want black people to hear, and

2030
02:11:33,960 --> 02:11:37,200
Speaker 1: so something had to be done about it and done

2031
02:11:37,200 --> 02:11:39,680
Speaker 1: about me. And so I want to go back to

2032
02:11:39,720 --> 02:11:41,080
Speaker 1: Oprah for a minute, because I do think that a

2033
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:43,760
Speaker 1: lot of people are gonna be curious on this. Going

2034
02:11:43,800 --> 02:11:46,560
Speaker 1: on Oprah at the time that you went on Oprah

2035
02:11:47,320 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 1: was like being crowned by you know, like the king

2036
02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:54,000
Speaker 1: or Queen of England, right, like being night and you

2037
02:11:54,080 --> 02:11:56,280
Speaker 1: were you. I mean, that was like bestowing up on

2038
02:11:56,400 --> 02:12:00,080
Speaker 1: you the ultimate and cultural relevance. And you had a

2039
02:12:00,160 --> 02:12:03,000
Speaker 1: really good performance on Oprah, right, It wasn't like you

2040
02:12:03,040 --> 02:12:06,200
Speaker 1: were Tom Cruise climbing on the couch like losing your mind.

2041
02:12:06,280 --> 02:12:08,960
Speaker 1: Like you made a cogent case. It was well received

2042
02:12:09,480 --> 02:12:13,160
Speaker 1: and like you said, your profile skyrocketed as a result

2043
02:12:13,200 --> 02:12:16,400
Speaker 1: of that. Were you aware of how big that was

2044
02:12:16,440 --> 02:12:19,720
Speaker 1: gonna be when you were doing it and and what

2045
02:12:19,800 --> 02:12:22,000
Speaker 1: was it like to come out of that Oprah interview

2046
02:12:22,280 --> 02:12:26,000
Speaker 1: and suddenly have basically at the time, every woman on

2047
02:12:26,040 --> 02:12:28,760
Speaker 1: the planet was watching Oprah Winfrey, right, Like I mean,

2048
02:12:28,800 --> 02:12:32,280
Speaker 1: you it was impossible to have almost more of a

2049
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:37,120
Speaker 1: cultural impact on a talk show. Yeah, I knew it

2050
02:12:37,200 --> 02:12:45,360
Speaker 1: was a big deal. I was naive about, uh, the ramifications.

2051
02:12:46,280 --> 02:12:49,800
Speaker 1: I knew it was a big deal. I was very

2052
02:12:49,960 --> 02:12:55,000
Speaker 1: naive about the level of animus that would be directed

2053
02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:58,960
Speaker 1: by way out of just pure envy, spite, and fear.

2054
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:03,440
Speaker 1: So you come out, So you go to ESPN. It's

2055
02:13:03,440 --> 02:13:06,840
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen. Now you're developing a new website that's

2056
02:13:06,880 --> 02:13:11,160
Speaker 1: going to be called The Undefeated, and this it is

2057
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:15,880
Speaker 1: very fascinating. Now you definitely became a target of the

2058
02:13:15,920 --> 02:13:19,640
Speaker 1: website dead Spin, which it seems to me decided that

2059
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:22,240
Speaker 1: they wanted to destroy you. I don't, I don't. I

2060
02:13:22,240 --> 02:13:24,520
Speaker 1: don't think that that's an exaggeration. I mean, I think

2061
02:13:24,880 --> 02:13:28,600
Speaker 1: much like later hul Cogan would file a lawsuit against

2062
02:13:28,720 --> 02:13:31,680
Speaker 1: Gawker over you know, the publication of their of the

2063
02:13:31,720 --> 02:13:34,520
Speaker 1: tape involving Hulk Cogan, it seems to me that the

2064
02:13:34,560 --> 02:13:37,280
Speaker 1: people running dead Spin at the time decided, I want

2065
02:13:37,320 --> 02:13:42,280
Speaker 1: to destroy Jason Whitlock. I think that was a conscious decision. Yeah,

2066
02:13:42,560 --> 02:13:48,720
Speaker 1: I think that, Uh, they were paid to do just that. Yes,

2067
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:52,200
Speaker 1: so you are the subject now, I don't know how

2068
02:13:52,200 --> 02:13:55,040
Speaker 1: many different articles they started to write at dead Spin

2069
02:13:55,160 --> 02:13:57,880
Speaker 1: and this for people now who again, it's twenty nineteen

2070
02:13:57,880 --> 02:13:59,480
Speaker 1: and we're doing this. You may be listening to this

2071
02:13:59,560 --> 02:14:02,280
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five for all I know, because the

2072
02:14:02,320 --> 02:14:05,320
Speaker 1: goal with this Wins and Losses podcast is that people

2073
02:14:05,360 --> 02:14:08,280
Speaker 1: can listen to this for years and and glean whatever

2074
02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:11,760
Speaker 1: lessons or interesting stories might come from it. Dead Spend

2075
02:14:11,760 --> 02:14:15,000
Speaker 1: at the time was a very powerful website. Right. This

2076
02:14:15,080 --> 02:14:18,560
Speaker 1: is in the wake of their Leni Kakua uh you know,

2077
02:14:18,600 --> 02:14:21,960
Speaker 1: sort of coup want probably the biggest uh story by

2078
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:25,840
Speaker 1: far that they ever did. Um. They are a cultural force,

2079
02:14:26,120 --> 02:14:30,040
Speaker 1: certainly in the world of sports media, and they trained

2080
02:14:30,320 --> 02:14:34,080
Speaker 1: their train their attention onto you as you were going

2081
02:14:34,120 --> 02:14:39,680
Speaker 1: through the process of developing this new website for ESPN. Yes,

2082
02:14:40,000 --> 02:14:46,520
Speaker 1: they took uh a writer, the Greg Howard guy, who,

2083
02:14:46,520 --> 02:14:49,680
Speaker 1: by the way, he has disappeared. Where is Greg Howard? Now?

2084
02:14:49,720 --> 02:14:55,720
Speaker 1: Do we know? No, we don't know. Un't. But you

2085
02:14:55,760 --> 02:14:57,360
Speaker 1: were at the process, for people who don't know, on

2086
02:14:57,440 --> 02:15:00,240
Speaker 1: the Undefeated, you were in the process of recruiting a

2087
02:15:00,320 --> 02:15:02,920
Speaker 1: lot of writers to be on this new website. It

2088
02:15:03,000 --> 02:15:05,920
Speaker 1: was gonna be similar somewhat to Bill Simmons the Ringer, right,

2089
02:15:06,040 --> 02:15:07,560
Speaker 1: I mean, or whatever it was called at the time,

2090
02:15:08,120 --> 02:15:11,640
Speaker 1: Grant Lyn Yeah. Um. And so you're out there recruiting,

2091
02:15:11,680 --> 02:15:14,040
Speaker 1: trying to find people that you think have the ability

2092
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:16,840
Speaker 1: to write at a high level, uh for this uh,

2093
02:15:16,880 --> 02:15:21,160
Speaker 1: this particular website, the The Undefeated, and as part of that,

2094
02:15:21,240 --> 02:15:23,480
Speaker 1: you come into contact, obviously with a lot of guys.

2095
02:15:23,480 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: Because I want to say this for people out there listening.

2096
02:15:26,360 --> 02:15:28,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who put on a big

2097
02:15:28,320 --> 02:15:32,840
Speaker 1: show about trying to provide opportunities to young people. And

2098
02:15:32,880 --> 02:15:34,800
Speaker 1: you kind of hinted at it a little bit talking

2099
02:15:34,840 --> 02:15:38,560
Speaker 1: about your relationship with kids from your high school and

2100
02:15:38,720 --> 02:15:41,919
Speaker 1: kids from your college at Ball State, but you actually

2101
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:45,120
Speaker 1: walk the walk like you have surrounded your show now

2102
02:15:45,720 --> 02:15:48,800
Speaker 1: uh sports speak for yourself with a lot of young,

2103
02:15:48,960 --> 02:15:52,440
Speaker 1: smart kids who, let's be honest, probably would not have

2104
02:15:52,520 --> 02:15:55,720
Speaker 1: the opportunity to work on a show like yours without

2105
02:15:55,760 --> 02:15:58,120
Speaker 1: your advocating for them. Right. So, there are a lot

2106
02:15:58,120 --> 02:16:00,480
Speaker 1: of people who talk the talk in the world and

2107
02:16:00,520 --> 02:16:03,560
Speaker 1: don't actually follow through it. You have lifted up a

2108
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:06,000
Speaker 1: lot of people over your career and continue to do

2109
02:16:06,080 --> 02:16:09,360
Speaker 1: it right now who maybe wouldn't have gotten opportunities without

2110
02:16:09,360 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 1: your advocacy absolutely, uh. And you also, by the way,

2111
02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:17,320
Speaker 1: let me say this, you don't get attention for it

2112
02:16:17,760 --> 02:16:20,080
Speaker 1: in the same way that other people who do less

2113
02:16:20,320 --> 02:16:22,560
Speaker 1: do I and you don't have to to preach for

2114
02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:26,400
Speaker 1: yourself here. But for people out there listening, Uh, this

2115
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:29,320
Speaker 1: is not a great secret internally in the world. But

2116
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:31,200
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who are the wocust

2117
02:16:31,240 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 1: on Twitter that don't do a lot of work for

2118
02:16:33,879 --> 02:16:37,400
Speaker 1: people who might be able to benefit by their quote

2119
02:16:37,480 --> 02:16:40,360
Speaker 1: unquote wokenus right, And that's just I mean again, there's

2120
02:16:40,400 --> 02:16:42,600
Speaker 1: a lot of people who talk one way and walk another.

2121
02:16:42,720 --> 02:16:46,320
Speaker 1: So you actually follow through on the ability to try

2122
02:16:46,320 --> 02:16:48,320
Speaker 1: to lift other people up. Probably and you can speak

2123
02:16:48,400 --> 02:16:50,720
Speaker 1: this better than I can, because you feel like there

2124
02:16:50,760 --> 02:16:52,440
Speaker 1: weren't a lot of people to lift you up when

2125
02:16:52,440 --> 02:16:57,360
Speaker 1: you were necessarily twenty three years old in this industry. Well,

2126
02:16:57,760 --> 02:17:02,039
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, there were people who lifted me

2127
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:06,120
Speaker 1: up and who supported me, including you know, Ralph Wilde

2128
02:17:06,120 --> 02:17:10,240
Speaker 1: was a good friend of mine. And that is probably

2129
02:17:10,280 --> 02:17:15,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I bend over backwards, uh,

2130
02:17:15,920 --> 02:17:20,560
Speaker 1: trying to help others and and so it's just part

2131
02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 1: of my core life philosophy that you know, if you

2132
02:17:27,040 --> 02:17:31,200
Speaker 1: if you create a platform or you have success, that

2133
02:17:31,600 --> 02:17:35,760
Speaker 1: it's incumbent upon you too. You know, use your power

2134
02:17:35,800 --> 02:17:40,880
Speaker 1: in your platform to provide the opportunities for others, uh,

2135
02:17:41,080 --> 02:17:45,279
Speaker 1: to elevate themselves and to take advantage of the opportunities

2136
02:17:45,280 --> 02:17:48,760
Speaker 1: provided them. And so again, Darnie L. Smith, the kid

2137
02:17:48,800 --> 02:17:52,360
Speaker 1: from my high school, uh, you know, has a role

2138
02:17:52,400 --> 02:17:54,840
Speaker 1: on my show, and that we got a kid named

2139
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:58,160
Speaker 1: Jay Hawk. I know him as Jay Hawk Mark. His

2140
02:17:58,240 --> 02:18:01,560
Speaker 1: real name is Mark Donald's, but I call him jay

2141
02:18:01,560 --> 02:18:04,360
Speaker 1: Hawk Mark because when I was in Kansas City and

2142
02:18:04,400 --> 02:18:07,119
Speaker 1: had my own radio show, there was a thirteen year

2143
02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:09,520
Speaker 1: old kid named Jay Hawk Mark that used to call

2144
02:18:09,640 --> 02:18:13,520
Speaker 1: my radio show every day and some little black kid

2145
02:18:13,160 --> 02:18:18,199
Speaker 1: and you know, idolized me. Well, now he's seven years old,

2146
02:18:18,400 --> 02:18:21,240
Speaker 1: and you know he works for my show out here

2147
02:18:21,720 --> 02:18:26,280
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. Uh. And so I just think that

2148
02:18:26,280 --> 02:18:30,280
Speaker 1: that's important to provide young people, particularly if they show

2149
02:18:30,320 --> 02:18:35,520
Speaker 1: any initiative and good values, provide them an opportunity. Be

2150
02:18:35,640 --> 02:18:38,039
Speaker 1: sure to catch live editions of would Kicked the Coverage

2151
02:18:38,040 --> 02:18:40,960
Speaker 1: with Clay Travis week days at six am Eastern three

2152
02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:45,080
Speaker 1: am Pacific. Clay Travis Dives Deep with Jason Whitlock on

2153
02:18:45,160 --> 02:18:48,640
Speaker 1: the Wins and Losses podcast, So we talked about wins

2154
02:18:48,640 --> 02:18:50,600
Speaker 1: and losses. You've had a ton of wins up to

2155
02:18:50,640 --> 02:18:53,800
Speaker 1: this point. Getting the opportunity for the biggest sports media

2156
02:18:53,840 --> 02:18:56,200
Speaker 1: company in the world to build a part of their

2157
02:18:56,240 --> 02:18:59,720
Speaker 1: website around your vision is maybe the biggest win of all.

2158
02:19:00,200 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 1: You had the one loss, but you've now canceled out

2159
02:19:02,560 --> 02:19:06,000
Speaker 1: because you got this endorsement. Uh and and obviously there

2160
02:19:06,000 --> 02:19:09,119
Speaker 1: are different wins and losses along the way, but now

2161
02:19:09,360 --> 02:19:12,640
Speaker 1: you become a target. And I don't know how many

2162
02:19:12,720 --> 02:19:15,440
Speaker 1: articles Deadspen was gonna write, but they had people secretly,

2163
02:19:15,760 --> 02:19:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, recording you, I think audio wise, Like I mean,

2164
02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:21,240
Speaker 1: this was like this was like you had the FBI

2165
02:19:21,360 --> 02:19:22,840
Speaker 1: and the c i A and the n s A

2166
02:19:22,840 --> 02:19:26,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden out after you initially, did you

2167
02:19:26,320 --> 02:19:29,400
Speaker 1: just brush off the the impact of the coverage or

2168
02:19:29,480 --> 02:19:32,920
Speaker 1: when did you start to realize how pernicious it really

2169
02:19:33,040 --> 02:19:36,120
Speaker 1: was and maybe that this wasn't just some story, that

2170
02:19:36,240 --> 02:19:41,400
Speaker 1: the goal was really legitimately this website trying to destroy you. Now.

2171
02:19:41,440 --> 02:19:45,680
Speaker 1: I recognized early on what they were doing and what

2172
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:52,720
Speaker 1: they were up to, but my survival plan was always

2173
02:19:53,120 --> 02:19:57,800
Speaker 1: the work that the work would see me through. I've

2174
02:19:57,840 --> 02:20:01,760
Speaker 1: always felt like that was my best and only defense

2175
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:05,920
Speaker 1: is to produce great content. There's no other way to survive.

2176
02:20:06,520 --> 02:20:12,600
Speaker 1: And so I thought that if I just got to

2177
02:20:12,680 --> 02:20:20,520
Speaker 1: produce enough content that that with silence or nullify the critics,

2178
02:20:23,600 --> 02:20:27,199
Speaker 1: I actually think it it ended up working in reverse

2179
02:20:27,320 --> 02:20:31,480
Speaker 1: because you know, the the there was a lot of

2180
02:20:31,520 --> 02:20:38,039
Speaker 1: resistance internally, well beyond dead spend to my hire at ESPN,

2181
02:20:38,760 --> 02:20:41,680
Speaker 1: and just the point of view and what I represented

2182
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:49,120
Speaker 1: wasn't going to be uh progressive enough for some people

2183
02:20:49,240 --> 02:20:53,760
Speaker 1: who think that the only pro black thing you can

2184
02:20:53,800 --> 02:20:58,520
Speaker 1: ever do is be progressive or liberal. I don't happen

2185
02:20:58,600 --> 02:21:03,480
Speaker 1: to believe that, and so I recognize that, you know,

2186
02:21:03,560 --> 02:21:07,160
Speaker 1: I needed this work. But actually, when we produced some

2187
02:21:07,320 --> 02:21:10,640
Speaker 1: great work, and I think if you look at we

2188
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:15,280
Speaker 1: did a profile on Charles Barkley, Jesse Washington did it,

2189
02:21:16,120 --> 02:21:18,440
Speaker 1: and it was one of these stories that we were

2190
02:21:18,480 --> 02:21:22,160
Speaker 1: putting out there to let everybody know this is the

2191
02:21:22,280 --> 02:21:25,039
Speaker 1: level story we want to do and where we want

2192
02:21:25,040 --> 02:21:30,480
Speaker 1: to operate at. And that actually worked in reverse because

2193
02:21:31,520 --> 02:21:37,040
Speaker 1: that just made my critics double down even further, like

2194
02:21:37,280 --> 02:21:42,480
Speaker 1: holy shit, we gotta stop this guy. He's just edited

2195
02:21:43,200 --> 02:21:48,599
Speaker 1: helped formulate a story that is one of the most provocative,

2196
02:21:48,760 --> 02:21:54,160
Speaker 1: best things, well reported research thing that could ever be done,

2197
02:21:54,840 --> 02:21:59,480
Speaker 1: and it doesn't reach the right conclusions. And again people

2198
02:21:59,560 --> 02:22:04,000
Speaker 1: think I got an accused of being polemic, that I

2199
02:22:04,080 --> 02:22:06,920
Speaker 1: have some point of view that I'm dogmatic about and

2200
02:22:06,959 --> 02:22:10,080
Speaker 1: bah blah blah, which is untrue. I went into the

2201
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:14,640
Speaker 1: Charles Barkley story as an editor with a completely different

2202
02:22:14,760 --> 02:22:17,720
Speaker 1: narrative about where this story was gonna land. I had

2203
02:22:17,760 --> 02:22:22,400
Speaker 1: told Jesse Washington that, yeah, I say, I think Barkley

2204
02:22:22,480 --> 02:22:25,400
Speaker 1: it's like he's going down to rush Limball Lane. He's

2205
02:22:25,400 --> 02:22:29,600
Speaker 1: just saying wild, crazy stuff to heighten his brand, and baba,

2206
02:22:30,120 --> 02:22:33,400
Speaker 1: that's what I thought told Jesse the story was gonna

2207
02:22:33,440 --> 02:22:36,640
Speaker 1: be about. But I told Jesse, We're gonna go wherever

2208
02:22:36,680 --> 02:22:40,280
Speaker 1: the reporting leads. And so once Jesse got into the

2209
02:22:40,320 --> 02:22:44,440
Speaker 1: reporting of it, the story led a completely different direction.

2210
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:49,720
Speaker 1: That Barkley is actually just true to his upbringing in Alabama,

2211
02:22:50,640 --> 02:22:57,920
Speaker 1: and that he's actually like a modern day booker T Washington, uh,

2212
02:22:58,000 --> 02:23:02,640
Speaker 1: and he's reflecting of the culture from which he grew

2213
02:23:02,720 --> 02:23:06,160
Speaker 1: up in the church his grandma, his grandmother and mother

2214
02:23:06,240 --> 02:23:09,840
Speaker 1: had him in and blah blah, we explained Charles Barkley

2215
02:23:09,840 --> 02:23:12,640
Speaker 1: in a way that had never been done before, and

2216
02:23:12,680 --> 02:23:15,000
Speaker 1: it made perfect sense, and it was beautifully written and

2217
02:23:15,080 --> 02:23:20,680
Speaker 1: researched and blah blah blah, and people had a ship storm.

2218
02:23:20,840 --> 02:23:25,000
Speaker 1: John Skipper loved the story originally, and then he listened

2219
02:23:25,040 --> 02:23:30,560
Speaker 1: to all these idiot critics who talked him into, oh,

2220
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 1: the actually the story wasn't that good, and it was

2221
02:23:33,360 --> 02:23:35,680
Speaker 1: they screwed up the history, and they just all just

2222
02:23:35,720 --> 02:23:40,400
Speaker 1: went batshit crazy trying to beat down this story. And

2223
02:23:39,879 --> 02:23:44,800
Speaker 1: and so the actual quality and the high nature quality

2224
02:23:44,800 --> 02:23:48,840
Speaker 1: of what we did actually just made my critics double

2225
02:23:48,959 --> 02:23:52,840
Speaker 1: down and go after me even harder. And you know,

2226
02:23:53,160 --> 02:23:56,720
Speaker 1: eventually they went to even greater lens. As you said,

2227
02:23:56,840 --> 02:24:01,400
Speaker 1: was uh, you know that they part time secretary that

2228
02:24:01,480 --> 02:24:07,120
Speaker 1: I hired and getting hurd of tape things, and just

2229
02:24:07,560 --> 02:24:12,520
Speaker 1: it just it just got crazy. And it just became

2230
02:24:12,600 --> 02:24:19,400
Speaker 1: crystal clear that the political left was going to attack

2231
02:24:19,560 --> 02:24:24,160
Speaker 1: me and anybody who supported me at the SPN until

2232
02:24:24,200 --> 02:24:26,360
Speaker 1: they got rid of me at the STN. And and

2233
02:24:26,840 --> 02:24:30,879
Speaker 1: I don't blame John Skipper for giving up on me,

2234
02:24:32,680 --> 02:24:36,440
Speaker 1: because from his point of view and what he was

2235
02:24:36,520 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 1: dealing with internally there at the ESPN, it just did.

2236
02:24:40,640 --> 02:24:44,720
Speaker 1: It wasn't worth the sustained fight in his mind. I

2237
02:24:44,720 --> 02:24:49,120
Speaker 1: think it's a mistake. I think that the Undefeated is

2238
02:24:49,840 --> 02:24:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, was made impotent by my removal. Uh, and

2239
02:24:55,640 --> 02:24:58,039
Speaker 1: that you know, it's a site that publishes a lot

2240
02:24:58,080 --> 02:25:04,680
Speaker 1: of sidebar stories and doesn't do any real high impact things. Uh,

2241
02:25:05,320 --> 02:25:10,480
Speaker 1: it's not. It doesn't meet the grand ideas and vision

2242
02:25:10,560 --> 02:25:15,039
Speaker 1: that you know, we originally had for it. But on

2243
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:20,000
Speaker 1: the plus side, you know, there's thirty to fifty African

2244
02:25:20,000 --> 02:25:23,360
Speaker 1: American journalists that have jobs because the underfeat is there,

2245
02:25:23,400 --> 02:25:27,120
Speaker 1: and uh, that is a plus. But I just I

2246
02:25:27,600 --> 02:25:31,240
Speaker 1: wish that the site was far more ambitious than what

2247
02:25:31,320 --> 02:25:34,960
Speaker 1: it's being allowed to be. How much of your and

2248
02:25:35,000 --> 02:25:36,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get back to Deadspin in a minute, but

2249
02:25:36,680 --> 02:25:40,800
Speaker 1: how much of your struggles came from suddenly being a manager?

2250
02:25:43,680 --> 02:25:48,360
Speaker 1: I don't think, and again I don't think those were

2251
02:25:48,400 --> 02:25:54,840
Speaker 1: my real struggles. It my my struggles, to be quite honestly,

2252
02:25:54,879 --> 02:25:58,160
Speaker 1: We're just there were people that just didn't want to

2253
02:25:58,200 --> 02:26:00,280
Speaker 1: do the site. And I'm talk about people that mattered

2254
02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:02,840
Speaker 1: within the ESPN, and they were out to get you

2255
02:26:02,879 --> 02:26:05,560
Speaker 1: from the moment you think that basically you were given

2256
02:26:05,600 --> 02:26:10,040
Speaker 1: this job. I didn't. I wasn't allowed to hire anybody

2257
02:26:10,080 --> 02:26:15,080
Speaker 1: for a year. I mean, I just that wasn't my choice.

2258
02:26:15,160 --> 02:26:17,320
Speaker 1: That wasn't from a lack of people wanting a job.

2259
02:26:17,600 --> 02:26:22,960
Speaker 1: That wasn't uh people weren't interested in working with and

2260
02:26:23,040 --> 02:26:27,160
Speaker 1: for me, that was I just wasn't allowed to period.

2261
02:26:27,959 --> 02:26:33,800
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I could sit here and and

2262
02:26:35,200 --> 02:26:40,840
Speaker 1: there is no first time manager of anything who doesn't

2263
02:26:40,840 --> 02:26:46,160
Speaker 1: make mistakes and who doesn't need help managing things. Uh,

2264
02:26:46,480 --> 02:26:51,279
Speaker 1: So I don't think I was remotely unusual in that aspect.

2265
02:26:52,440 --> 02:26:55,880
Speaker 1: The struggle was just like, for a year, you didn't

2266
02:26:55,920 --> 02:26:59,760
Speaker 1: allow me to hire anybody. We sat back and played

2267
02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:02,880
Speaker 1: the role of hey, dead Spin can say whatever the

2268
02:27:02,959 --> 02:27:06,760
Speaker 1: hell they want about you. Our strategies are gonna be

2269
02:27:07,120 --> 02:27:11,720
Speaker 1: don't respond and so and if you do respond, it's

2270
02:27:11,720 --> 02:27:14,720
Speaker 1: a sign that you're not the right person for the job.

2271
02:27:15,080 --> 02:27:18,680
Speaker 1: And so I was silent and then allowed other people

2272
02:27:18,720 --> 02:27:21,880
Speaker 1: to take control of a narrative about who that who

2273
02:27:21,920 --> 02:27:27,359
Speaker 1: I was, and they ran wild with it, and uh,

2274
02:27:27,400 --> 02:27:31,400
Speaker 1: you know, it was just just running out the clock

2275
02:27:31,720 --> 02:27:37,480
Speaker 1: until you had enough excuses, uh to fire me. And

2276
02:27:37,480 --> 02:27:41,480
Speaker 1: and they did, and the final piece from dead Spin

2277
02:27:41,680 --> 02:27:46,760
Speaker 1: came out on April two thousand and fifteen, which I

2278
02:27:46,840 --> 02:27:50,840
Speaker 1: believe is on your birthday. And then the dead Spin

2279
02:27:51,040 --> 02:27:54,160
Speaker 1: editor called it a head shot. He went on Twitter

2280
02:27:54,240 --> 02:27:58,880
Speaker 1: and called it a head shot. Look, yes, the whole

2281
02:27:58,920 --> 02:28:03,240
Speaker 1: thing with dead Spin was very personal for them. Uh.

2282
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:07,920
Speaker 1: And again they had a job to do, destroy me

2283
02:28:08,480 --> 02:28:15,480
Speaker 1: and destroy my opportunity to run The Undefeated. And again,

2284
02:28:15,640 --> 02:28:23,400
Speaker 1: just if you understand my journalistic perspective, resume brand The

2285
02:28:23,480 --> 02:28:27,920
Speaker 1: Undefeated would be far different from what it is today

2286
02:28:27,959 --> 02:28:30,600
Speaker 1: if I were running it, and they were not going

2287
02:28:30,680 --> 02:28:35,360
Speaker 1: to allow that. There's a there's only one way the

2288
02:28:35,560 --> 02:28:42,440
Speaker 1: left wants African Americans to view their situation in America,

2289
02:28:42,520 --> 02:28:46,360
Speaker 1: and the only they want everything to be white people

2290
02:28:46,400 --> 02:28:50,240
Speaker 1: are in control of your lives and you must fix

2291
02:28:50,320 --> 02:28:53,760
Speaker 1: white people for you to have any success in life.

2292
02:28:55,040 --> 02:29:01,560
Speaker 1: That's not my view. No, no, and and again it

2293
02:29:01,600 --> 02:29:03,959
Speaker 1: goes all the way back to the beginning of my conversation.

2294
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:08,440
Speaker 1: If you know my mother and father, they weren't sitting

2295
02:29:08,480 --> 02:29:12,640
Speaker 1: around going, well, let me fix white people and then

2296
02:29:12,680 --> 02:29:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna fix my situation. That That's just never been

2297
02:29:16,160 --> 02:29:19,120
Speaker 1: their view. I'm gonna go out and get and do

2298
02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:23,000
Speaker 1: for me that time, going to fix my problems. When

2299
02:29:23,000 --> 02:29:25,680
Speaker 1: my father was on a job at Chrysler and he

2300
02:29:25,720 --> 02:29:29,560
Speaker 1: was reading the autobiographer Malcolm X, and the manager complained,

2301
02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:33,080
Speaker 1: how come you reading the autobiographer Malcolm X. My father

2302
02:29:33,240 --> 02:29:35,720
Speaker 1: made it up in his mind, Oh, anyone gonna tell

2303
02:29:35,720 --> 02:29:39,320
Speaker 1: me what book I can read. I'm going to start

2304
02:29:39,400 --> 02:29:42,680
Speaker 1: my own business so that no one ever again questions

2305
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:46,200
Speaker 1: me about what I'm doing with my spare time. And

2306
02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:52,840
Speaker 1: so that's my mentality. That that's how I was raised.

2307
02:29:53,280 --> 02:29:57,000
Speaker 1: My father, it was like the thing you do in

2308
02:29:57,040 --> 02:30:03,279
Speaker 1: America is create your own little plot of happiness. And again,

2309
02:30:03,360 --> 02:30:07,800
Speaker 1: he liked being in an all black community. Uh built

2310
02:30:07,800 --> 02:30:10,240
Speaker 1: a brand new house in the black community, had his

2311
02:30:10,320 --> 02:30:14,880
Speaker 1: business in the black community, found contentment and happiness there.

2312
02:30:15,640 --> 02:30:21,520
Speaker 1: And again, does does that mean you put up with

2313
02:30:22,600 --> 02:30:26,280
Speaker 1: all sorts of abuse and unfairness in the world. Absolutely not.

2314
02:30:27,160 --> 02:30:37,440
Speaker 1: But running around doing stories about bs inconveniences, Oh, someone

2315
02:30:37,680 --> 02:30:41,360
Speaker 1: did a hand signal behind me at the Cubs game. Therefore,

2316
02:30:41,480 --> 02:30:43,600
Speaker 1: let me write two thousand words about it in the

2317
02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:47,400
Speaker 1: New York Times. Again, that's the kind of stuff that

2318
02:30:47,440 --> 02:30:51,400
Speaker 1: I would have no interest in publishing that the mainstream

2319
02:30:51,520 --> 02:30:55,119
Speaker 1: media has an interest in publishing. And I'm talking about

2320
02:30:55,160 --> 02:30:58,039
Speaker 1: Doug Glanville, and the PC just wrote in the New

2321
02:30:58,120 --> 02:31:02,720
Speaker 1: York Times, uh this week. Uh. That's the kind of

2322
02:31:02,800 --> 02:31:06,680
Speaker 1: journalism I don't believe in because I don't think it's

2323
02:31:07,720 --> 02:31:14,920
Speaker 1: representative of what poor people, poor Black people. Someone hold

2324
02:31:14,959 --> 02:31:19,600
Speaker 1: a little okay thumb hand signal when Doug Glanville is

2325
02:31:19,640 --> 02:31:23,480
Speaker 1: doing a TV shot. That's not the issue impacting poor

2326
02:31:23,520 --> 02:31:27,760
Speaker 1: black people. That's not the oppression they face. And so

2327
02:31:27,879 --> 02:31:29,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to spend any time. I'm certainly not

2328
02:31:30,000 --> 02:31:33,880
Speaker 1: giving up two thousand words for anybody to write about that.

2329
02:31:33,879 --> 02:31:37,880
Speaker 1: That's a Doug Glanville elitist problem. Someone did a hand

2330
02:31:37,920 --> 02:31:43,440
Speaker 1: signal behind Doug Glanville. That's not Black America's problem. And

2331
02:31:43,640 --> 02:31:49,200
Speaker 1: so I just I believe America is the land of opportunity.

2332
02:31:49,280 --> 02:31:52,640
Speaker 1: I believe America has sinned like every other country and

2333
02:31:52,680 --> 02:31:55,600
Speaker 1: every other human being is put on put on the planet.

2334
02:31:55,920 --> 02:31:59,680
Speaker 1: But I believe America is the land of opportunity. And

2335
02:31:59,760 --> 02:32:03,880
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity in America unlike most other countries

2336
02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:09,879
Speaker 1: across the globe. Two fix your problems and build yourself

2337
02:32:10,040 --> 02:32:15,640
Speaker 1: some happiness and opportunity in this country. And I want

2338
02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:17,760
Speaker 1: to be respectful of that and I just think too

2339
02:32:17,920 --> 02:32:22,800
Speaker 1: much of the mainstream media UH takes that opportunities we

2340
02:32:22,879 --> 02:32:27,119
Speaker 1: have here. For granted, UH has a very dumb down,

2341
02:32:28,080 --> 02:32:33,680
Speaker 1: UH illogical discussion about race, and I would have wanted

2342
02:32:33,760 --> 02:32:37,800
Speaker 1: no parts of that. And I think that's what, you know,

2343
02:32:37,959 --> 02:32:42,000
Speaker 1: eventually got me removed at The Undefeated. That's a loss.

2344
02:32:42,520 --> 02:32:46,320
Speaker 1: A when is where we started with? Which is you

2345
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,320
Speaker 1: now have a show an hour and a half every

2346
02:32:49,400 --> 02:32:55,040
Speaker 1: day on FS one which debates and discusses these issues

2347
02:32:55,720 --> 02:33:00,960
Speaker 1: in a very intelligent fashion, probably for a bigger audience

2348
02:33:00,959 --> 02:33:04,080
Speaker 1: than you could have reached at The Undefeated. That show

2349
02:33:04,200 --> 02:33:07,720
Speaker 1: is called Speak for Yourself. You Marcellus Wiley and a

2350
02:33:07,760 --> 02:33:12,279
Speaker 1: host of regular guests, for ninety minutes every day try

2351
02:33:12,360 --> 02:33:15,200
Speaker 1: and advance the conversation. And people don't always agree with

2352
02:33:15,240 --> 02:33:16,920
Speaker 1: you on the show. In fact, some of the best

2353
02:33:16,920 --> 02:33:20,000
Speaker 1: parts of the show are when people disagree with you. Uh.

2354
02:33:20,360 --> 02:33:23,160
Speaker 1: What are you attempting with the show and what have

2355
02:33:23,240 --> 02:33:27,920
Speaker 1: you been able to achieve so far with the show? Well,

2356
02:33:28,400 --> 02:33:33,519
Speaker 1: I'm certainly trying to show that there is a conversation

2357
02:33:33,560 --> 02:33:36,920
Speaker 1: to be had that I think that people are yearning for,

2358
02:33:37,200 --> 02:33:45,560
Speaker 1: which is a more authentic, non PC conversation that is

2359
02:33:46,040 --> 02:33:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, and again, the decisions aren't based in race.

2360
02:33:52,920 --> 02:33:56,039
Speaker 1: But the reality is, I think that there is a

2361
02:33:56,080 --> 02:34:00,680
Speaker 1: conversation that black people have about sport. And again, our

2362
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:04,000
Speaker 1: conversation is an exclusive to black people. But Marcel's and

2363
02:34:04,040 --> 02:34:08,320
Speaker 1: I certainly are black, Darnell's black, Offle Jimmy's black, a

2364
02:34:08,400 --> 02:34:10,840
Speaker 1: lot a lot of the guest athletes we have all

2365
02:34:10,879 --> 02:34:17,360
Speaker 1: our black. I'm trying to have the most authentic, real

2366
02:34:17,520 --> 02:34:21,040
Speaker 1: conversation you can have about a lot of these issues

2367
02:34:21,080 --> 02:34:27,440
Speaker 1: in sports that are fun, that are inclusive. But I'm

2368
02:34:27,480 --> 02:34:31,880
Speaker 1: trying to do it from a black point of view

2369
02:34:32,200 --> 02:34:35,840
Speaker 1: without being off put into the mainstream audience, because we

2370
02:34:36,000 --> 02:34:41,680
Speaker 1: certainly want the mainstream audience to watch us. Uh. But

2371
02:34:42,160 --> 02:34:46,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm trying to do a television

2372
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:53,400
Speaker 1: version of what I wanted to do at ESPN with

2373
02:34:53,520 --> 02:34:57,880
Speaker 1: The Undefeated, because I think it's a conversation everyone will

2374
02:34:57,920 --> 02:35:01,160
Speaker 1: be attracted to. Every One will feel like they're a

2375
02:35:01,200 --> 02:35:07,200
Speaker 1: part of. Uh. But you know, I'm trying to do it,

2376
02:35:07,760 --> 02:35:10,320
Speaker 1: I guess from a black point of view. I think

2377
02:35:10,360 --> 02:35:12,280
Speaker 1: we're you and I aligned, and we align in a

2378
02:35:12,280 --> 02:35:16,360
Speaker 1: lot of different places. Is in skepticism of there being

2379
02:35:16,640 --> 02:35:19,400
Speaker 1: a right idea and that if you don't have that

2380
02:35:19,520 --> 02:35:22,360
Speaker 1: right idea, you shouldn't be able to share it. Uh

2381
02:35:22,360 --> 02:35:25,560
Speaker 1: And that may be oversimplifying things a bit, but it

2382
02:35:25,680 --> 02:35:30,039
Speaker 1: seems that there is a predominant right idea that is

2383
02:35:30,080 --> 02:35:32,400
Speaker 1: allowed to be voiced in the world of sports, and

2384
02:35:32,400 --> 02:35:35,320
Speaker 1: that if you stray outside of those lines, there will

2385
02:35:35,360 --> 02:35:38,280
Speaker 1: be consequences for you in a way there aren't if

2386
02:35:38,280 --> 02:35:41,760
Speaker 1: you have the quote unquote right idea? Are things getting

2387
02:35:41,800 --> 02:35:44,480
Speaker 1: better or worse? First do you agree with that concept?

2388
02:35:44,520 --> 02:35:46,800
Speaker 1: And second do you think things are getting better or

2389
02:35:46,879 --> 02:35:50,360
Speaker 1: worse in terms of the fullness of conversation that is

2390
02:35:50,400 --> 02:35:53,960
Speaker 1: allowed as it pertains to sports. Uh and and and

2391
02:35:54,320 --> 02:35:56,879
Speaker 1: more of the of the issues in the country than

2392
02:35:56,920 --> 02:36:02,279
Speaker 1: just sports. I certainly think that social media, particularly Twitter,

2393
02:36:03,400 --> 02:36:10,480
Speaker 1: has demonized certain opinions that are unworthy of being demonized.

2394
02:36:11,240 --> 02:36:15,240
Speaker 1: Uh And I think I think that's impacted all of

2395
02:36:15,280 --> 02:36:21,240
Speaker 1: the mainstream media. And I think so many executives for

2396
02:36:21,280 --> 02:36:26,240
Speaker 1: a time lived in fear of Twitter and these gend

2397
02:36:26,440 --> 02:36:34,600
Speaker 1: up managed Twitter controversies, and I think that that has

2398
02:36:34,959 --> 02:36:40,320
Speaker 1: dumbed down and censored the American discourse. I think things

2399
02:36:41,280 --> 02:36:46,520
Speaker 1: are starting to get better. I think that when someone

2400
02:36:46,680 --> 02:36:51,800
Speaker 1: like Bob Iger uh ceo CEO of Disney for people

2401
02:36:51,800 --> 02:36:54,800
Speaker 1: who might not know who he is. Yeah, and and

2402
02:36:54,879 --> 02:37:00,680
Speaker 1: he's critical of Twitter and social media and Silicon Ali

2403
02:37:00,920 --> 02:37:04,280
Speaker 1: and and saying that. I think he said that social

2404
02:37:04,320 --> 02:37:08,119
Speaker 1: media is a place that Hitler would find uh inviting

2405
02:37:08,240 --> 02:37:12,520
Speaker 1: or whatever or good or something like that. When things

2406
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:15,560
Speaker 1: like that are happening, when people like Bob Iger are

2407
02:37:15,560 --> 02:37:20,680
Speaker 1: waking up to what social media has done to American discourse, Uh,

2408
02:37:21,080 --> 02:37:26,800
Speaker 1: I think that's a good sign. I think that we're

2409
02:37:26,840 --> 02:37:30,800
Speaker 1: about a year away, I think from the true breaking

2410
02:37:30,879 --> 02:37:38,320
Speaker 1: point where uh people feel completely liberated. Uh. You know.

2411
02:37:38,520 --> 02:37:40,480
Speaker 1: And so I think in our lane and the sports

2412
02:37:40,520 --> 02:37:47,000
Speaker 1: media lane, to see again, Bob Iger and e SDN

2413
02:37:47,720 --> 02:37:50,880
Speaker 1: figure this out. I think it's good for all of us.

2414
02:37:51,520 --> 02:37:54,800
Speaker 1: I think that Over at Fox, I think that Rupert

2415
02:37:54,840 --> 02:37:59,959
Speaker 1: Murdoch and Eric Shankson figured it out a long time ago. Uh.

2416
02:38:00,040 --> 02:38:03,240
Speaker 1: But you know, Fox Sports isn't doesn't have the sway

2417
02:38:03,320 --> 02:38:07,720
Speaker 1: of ESPN at the moment, although I think that's starting

2418
02:38:07,720 --> 02:38:12,360
Speaker 1: to change. Uh. And so yeah, I do think we're

2419
02:38:12,440 --> 02:38:18,160
Speaker 1: headed a better direction. Uh. Jason Whitlock on Twitter at

2420
02:38:18,200 --> 02:38:22,080
Speaker 1: Whitlock Jason, We've talked a long time today. Is there

2421
02:38:22,120 --> 02:38:24,320
Speaker 1: anything that I have not asked you that you wish

2422
02:38:24,400 --> 02:38:28,720
Speaker 1: that I had. You've asked me some things that I

2423
02:38:28,760 --> 02:38:35,520
Speaker 1: wish you had not. I think that I was not

2424
02:38:35,720 --> 02:38:41,560
Speaker 1: prepared to talk about relationships today. Uh So, but no,

2425
02:38:41,720 --> 02:38:46,440
Speaker 1: I I I think we've covered a lot. We did

2426
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:48,400
Speaker 1: cover a lot the goal and I want to give

2427
02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:50,680
Speaker 1: you the last word here on the show. The goal

2428
02:38:50,760 --> 02:38:54,680
Speaker 1: of this show is to discuss wins and losses as

2429
02:38:54,720 --> 02:38:58,200
Speaker 1: people experience them in their career. You've had a lot

2430
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:01,920
Speaker 1: of wins, You've also had a lot of losses. What

2431
02:39:02,080 --> 02:39:12,200
Speaker 1: have you learned more from? Uh? Probably the losses, you know.

2432
02:39:12,360 --> 02:39:19,920
Speaker 1: I think the experience in ESPR uh sharpen my focus

2433
02:39:20,440 --> 02:39:28,800
Speaker 1: and made me more resolute in who I've been raised

2434
02:39:28,800 --> 02:39:35,119
Speaker 1: to be and more I wouldn't because I've never been uncomfortable,

2435
02:39:35,160 --> 02:39:40,520
Speaker 1: but it just maybe even more comfortable that uh, you know,

2436
02:39:40,800 --> 02:39:43,560
Speaker 1: and confident about who I am and what my point

2437
02:39:43,560 --> 02:39:47,840
Speaker 1: of view is and what I believe in. And so

2438
02:39:48,400 --> 02:39:52,800
Speaker 1: it's it's probably been the losses that have helped me

2439
02:39:52,920 --> 02:39:58,520
Speaker 1: the most. Uh. But you know, it feels better to win,

2440
02:39:59,280 --> 02:40:03,480
Speaker 1: It's it feels better to be, you know, on a

2441
02:40:03,560 --> 02:40:07,680
Speaker 1: TV show that's starting to have some success and starting

2442
02:40:07,680 --> 02:40:12,280
Speaker 1: to cut through. Uh. That feels a lot better than

2443
02:40:13,040 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 1: laying in bed wondering why the world is against you.

2444
02:40:19,200 --> 02:40:22,480
Speaker 1: It's been Jason Whitlock at Whitlock Jason, go follow him

2445
02:40:22,480 --> 02:40:24,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter. I'm at Clay Travis. If you enjoyed this,

2446
02:40:25,040 --> 02:40:28,120
Speaker 1: let us know on social media, And if you enjoyed

2447
02:40:28,160 --> 02:40:30,600
Speaker 1: this podcast, share it with other friends. There's gonna be

2448
02:40:30,640 --> 02:40:33,440
Speaker 1: a lot more of them coming down the line. Again,

2449
02:40:33,640 --> 02:40:36,080
Speaker 1: this is Wins and Losses and I'm Clay Travis. Be

2450
02:40:36,200 --> 02:40:38,760
Speaker 1: sure to catch live editions about Kicked the Coverage with

2451
02:40:38,800 --> 02:40:42,400
Speaker 1: Clay Travis weekdays at six am Eastern three am Pacific

2452
02:40:42,640 --> 02:40:45,400
Speaker 1: on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio I