WEBVTT - #017 Jason Flom and Barry Scheck with Jason Baldwin 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.920 With the police banging on the door, open up. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:12.360 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:13.760 choice I made as a free man. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.880 A year later, I ended up writing the system. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.239 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:21.880 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.000 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:25.319 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:25.599 with that. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.560 Somebody was able to look at my picture in the 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.120 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.479 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:38.720 might have to play in my hanging. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.000 They had been told that two prison officers would have 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.239 to participate in my execution. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.240 And I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man, 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:49.560 all help broke loops. 0:00:49.600 --> 0:01:06.840 But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.000 with Jason Flomm Today. I'm particularly thrilled, I actually even 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.360 a little nervous, because I have two of my heroes 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.759 in the studio today, Jason Baldwin of the West Memphis three. 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:20.560 In May nineteen ninety three, three young Arkansas boys, Stevie Branch, 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:23.640 Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore went missing. 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.280 Three little cub scouts, hog tied and left in an 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:27.279 Arkansas did. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.120 One of the most controversial legal cases in the state's history. 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.040 A jury found the man guilty of murdering the eight 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.840 year old boys back in nineteen ninety three in what 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.560 prosecutors at the time had called some sort of a 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:39.800 satanic ritual. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.759 Celebrities fighting for the teen's release claimed the kids were 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.680 railroaded because of their mullets, dark clothes, and fascination with 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:47.520 the occult. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.840 Sticking killings that might have been part of a satanic ritual. 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.200 Convicted murderers Jason Baldwin, Jesse mss Kelly, and Damian Eccles 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:56.680 are now free men. 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.560 They spent seventeen years in prison for a crime that 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:00.440 stunned dark. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.040 So West Memphis. Three would be allowed to walk out 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.920 of prison, but prosecutors agreed to sign off on the 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.079 deal only if the defendants would plead guilty. 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:12.840 Welcome to the show, Thank you, Jason, it was a 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:13.639 pleasure to be here. 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.959 We also have in the studio today a recidivius guest, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.919 a repeat defender on wrongful conviction. The one and only 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.760 Barry Shack, co founder of the Innocence Project. Very welcome. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.880 Great to be here. So Jason, let's turn to you 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:33.079 to start with. You have lived the most bizarrely extraordinary life, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:37.560 having been wrongfully convicted at sixteen and then spending more 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.800 than half your life in maximum security prison. Let's go 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.440 back to the beginning in Arkansas. You grew up in 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.639 a very poor area. Poor areas, but nonetheless things were 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:48.480 pretty good. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.320 Yeah, my family had gone through a series of hardships, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.840 especially my mother. We had an abusive alcoholic step father, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.480 but at this time she had strengthened herself and we 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.600 had kind of kicked him out because he was just 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.680 so dangerous to us and our family. And she had 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.160 gotten a job in Memphis as a truck dispatcher. And 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.120 so we had like a family plan. The trailer we 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.120 were living in my grandmother left us, so we were landowners. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:13.760 We didn't really have to pay rent, We just had 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.240 to pay bills. My mother had a car, it was 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.679 paid for, and so the idea was that we would 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:20.840 work hard, my mom would work hard and save up 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:22.840 the money, and we would be able to move back 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.799 to Memphis, Tennessee, to a house and then we could 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.160 rent our trailer out and so we were in this 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.520 huge process of building our lives up again. 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.960 One day, one of the worst crimes probably in history 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.880 of America happens in this little town that you live in. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:39.760 Three little eight year old boys were out riding their 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.040 bikes and they disappeared. Correct And were you aware at 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.240 the time that there were these boys who had disappeared? 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.800 No, I didn't. I remember where I was when I 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.440 first became where. It was May the sixth, a Thursday. 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.520 I was at school, and in the school we had 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:58.160 televisions and usually the televisions were reserved for like programs 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.600 related to the class and stuff we were taking. But 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:03.280 they just stopped class all of a sudden, turned the 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.720 TV on and everybody got quiet, and it was a 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.280 news bulletin saying they had just found the three boys' bodies. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.360 So apparently they had been searching for the boys all 0:04:12.480 --> 0:04:14.960 night at the time, I wasn't aware of that. When 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.600 I became aware, they had already found them, and everybody 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.080 was like just freaked out about it. 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:22.960 Yeah, I'm getting the chills thinking about it now. And 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:24.320 in a small town. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.800 For me, you know, I just remember thinking it could 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.359 have been my little brother, and I was scared, you know. 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.880 And when I got home from school, my mom had 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.480 stayed from work so she could see us, you know, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.320 because normally she she left for work at two thirty 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.320 in the afternoon and we get back home at ten 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.360 thirty at night from the trucking agency where she worked 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:47.240 as a dispatcher. And it was my job to, you know, 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.320 watch after my brothers and things like that. 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:50.479 So she was there. 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.960 She's like, hey, they found these boys. They were murdered. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.680 They don't know who did it yet. I want you 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.000 all to stay at home until they find who is 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.320 responsible and just watch after each other. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:04.880 So how many days went by before they started looking 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.680 at you guys as possible suspects? And I started with Damien, right. 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.039 I think they went and questioned Damien immediately, Like the boys' 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:15.239 bodies were found Thursday, they questioned him Friday. 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.159 Right, And that was because he was known in the 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.520 community as being a guy who wore black clothes, listened 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.240 to heavy metal music. He was goth, right, he was 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:23.560 a goth. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.360 He was goth before the ward was coined. 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.680 Right, right, And you were just his friends. 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.159 Great, I was his best friend. 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.560 And he's an interesting guy, I mean, from everything I've 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:35.120 read and seen of him. He's a very intelligent guy, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.560 and he's a very interesting and introspective guy. 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:41.400 One day, I was biking home and I passed him 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:43.920 in front of his house and he was skateboarding. I 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.000 was like, oh, I know, you've seen you in study hall. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:47.920 He goes, yeah, me and my family we just moved 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:50.360 out here. I was like, cool, skateboard. He's like, you 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.000 want to skate on it? I was like cool. And 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.000 next thing I know, he's riding my bike around. I'm 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.600 skateboarding on a skateboard. And it just developed from there 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:58.600 a great friendship. 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:00.480 When this hall came down, you were in tenh grade, 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.279 tenth grade. Tenth grade, let's just reflect on that for 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.560 a second. You're not even anywhere near being an adulted 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.640 tenth grade. All of a sudden, things got really really serious. Friday, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.560 twenty four hours after the bodies are discovered, they're already 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.320 talking to Damien. Correct, when were you made aware that 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.000 you were actually going to be wrapped up in the summer. 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.920 The next day, they came to my house and knocked 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.000 on the door, and Detective Allen, Detective Ridge came and 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:27.080 summoned me. Damien and Dominie out of my house. Course, 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.120 so I was still there babysitting my brothers, you know, 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.520 because they haven't found whoever did this prime yet. So 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.159 the orders from my mom is still the same. We 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.200 got to stay at home and I got a babysit 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.880 And so when the police came, honestly, it didn't really 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.920 scare me or alarm me, because I figured they were 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.719 going everywhere. I figured it was door to door, you know, 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.200 that they were talking to everybody they could, you know, 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.400 and to me that made sense, you know, that was logical. 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.200 But what I didn't know that they were targeting us. 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.240 And the reason they were targeting us was when I 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.200 was eleven years old, when I first moved to Arkansas 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:02.240 from Memphis to two See and spent that summer there. 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.440 I was eleven, My brother Matthew was nine, my little 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.960 brother Terry was six. The trailer park was full of kids. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:11.440 It had a lake, and we made friends fast. We 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.920 swam in the lake every day. We played hide and 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:16.480 go seek out in the soybean and cotton fields. Well 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.240 out in the middle of the cotton field there was 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.640 this oll ten shack and it had been there so 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.560 long that a tree grown up and lifted the roof 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.240 off of the building and pushed the wall in, and 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.360 so for generations kids had been playing hide and go 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.640 seek there. But one day the cops showed up and 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.800 arrested all of us, all the kids of the trailer park. 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.800 Took us to the police station, called our parents to 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.760 come get us and everything, and to make a long 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.880 story short, when I ended up going to court, and 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:49.000 of course all the kids in the trailer park ended 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.560 up going to court, the prosecution told the judge, I 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.920 think two years in the state reform school would do 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.760 these kids some good, and our public defender, mister Montgomery, said, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.880 I agree, you're on her, And at that time my 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.880 mom jumped up said my sons aren't going to prison, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:10.360 which basically what reform school is housing for children. I 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.400 was eleven eleven, my brother Matthew was nine, and in 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:17.160 the range of ages of these kids, which was almost 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.600 every kid in the neighborhood, was anywhere from nine. I 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.560 think the oldest kid was fourteen. But when my mom objected, 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.760 the judge called them up to the bench. Next thing 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.960 I know, instead of two years in the state reform school, 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.200 I've got five years probation and a five hundred dollars fine. 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.360 And for my mom that was a thousand dollars fine 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.960 because she had two sons, our friends down the street. 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.640 She had four of her kids affected by it for 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.000 playing hide and seek, for playing hide and go seek. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.360 And now you know, in Arkansas, because I didn't know, 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:45.920 they gave. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:50.160 Us criminal they charged was criminal trespassing and breathing and right, 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:54.520 and I remember our family budget for Christmas was only 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:55.880 one hundred dollars. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:56.200 Right. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:58.600 And so now I'm on the record, right, I have 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.760 a record. I have what's called a criminal record. And honestly, 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.040 it really wasn't that bad. It wasn't that scary. I 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:06.400 had a probation officer. I would have to go to 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.600 his office, me and my brother would and he would 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.440 look at our case, and he didn't even he didn't 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.000 look at us like we were criminals, because we weren't. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.959 He would buy us soda pops and ask how we 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.640 were doing in school, ask us for our report cards 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:20.920 and stuff. And of course when I was at school, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.680 sometimes I'd be in class and intercom would come on 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.160 and they say, send Jason to the principal's office, you know, 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:28.880 And I go to the principal's office and there would 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.600 be mister Jones, I'm just checking in on you, you know. 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.520 And this went on for you know, until before I 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.320 got locked up. I became used to it, and so 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.960 that's how I got a record. When Damien came into 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.680 the picture, he still suffered the prejudice of the rest 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:45.120 of us kids out there, even though he didn't have 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.400 a record, right, But because he suffered the prejudice of it. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.360 You know, I didn't know this part of the story. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.040 So how could the public defender just immediately agree with 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.000 the court and say, yeah, they ought to be convicted 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:58.920 of a crime for playing hide and seek. 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.160 That's what he did. And you would think that the 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.559 prosecutor would be on the benefit of the people, the kids, right, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:10.120 A reasonable person, a reasonable prosecutor, a reasonable officer of 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.400 the law, would have just called our parents, not charged us, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.600 and says, hey, I know y'all have been playing hide 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.520 and go seek at this place for years, but y'all 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:18.800 just don't do that anymore. 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.040 I mean, of course, obviously, And it's interesting to Jason 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.280 because we see this now in poor and urban communities, 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.880 especially where they do these sweeps and they pick up 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.199 everybody with a stop and frisk and all this other stuff, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.320 and all of a sudden, everybody's got a record, and 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.160 then when something happens, is all of a sudden, you're 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:36.800 the guy who's got a record, even though you didn't 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:41.280 do anything wrong. So now everything goes completely haywire and 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:42.880 you guys get arrested. Correct. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.440 I remember when I was arrested. Thanks to public media, 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:47.560 I was expecting things when I was arrested. I was 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.760 expecting a fingerprints. I was expecting a mug shot, and 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.520 I was expecting a phone call. They mug shot in me. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.040 But when they fingerprinted me, they didn't stop there. They 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.480 took a fingerprint, They took an entire hand in pression. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.600 They took my entire foot prints right, and then they 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.079 took me to the hospital and they took hair samples, 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.040 they took saliva samples, they took blood samples. And now 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.600 at this point, I had already been engaged with the police, 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:16.600 and they had asked me, you know, questions and stuff, 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.480 and I had told them where I was at, and 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:23.160 they absolutely refused the truth. They kept telling me, no, 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:27.120 we've got another story. Your friend has told us that 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.120 you have done this, and that what you're telling us 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.320 is not true. I'm like, well, who is this friend? 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.000 And they refused to tell me, and honestly, I thought 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.800 they were lying. I'm like, no one has told you 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.360 that I'd done this, because I didn't do this. It 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.400 was like I was just arguing with a brick wall. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.200 I couldn't make them understand where I was at and 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.439 what I was doing. So when they were taking these 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:50.640 samples from me, it gave me hope because I thought, Okay, 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.280 whoever committed this crime has left the footprint, has left 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.480 a handprint, has left a hair sample, has left a 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.720 saliva sample, or has left a blood sample, something for 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.600 the police to compare my samples to right, And so 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:06.320 that's where my hope was. Now a couple of months 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.559 go by and I'm in the county jail and they 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.760 had to take all these samples from me again because 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:12.800 they didn't have a core order for it, and I'm like, 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.960 please take them from me. You can take them today, 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:17.720 you can take them tonight, you can take them every 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.320 day until you are able to prove that I am innocent. 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.520 But what you're saying is that you actually did believe 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:25.800 that they were after the truth, which you would hope. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.200 In a small community like that, you would think that 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.040 if for no other reason than a selfish reason, that 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.400 the authorities would want to get this bad, evil guy 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.280 out of the circulation and get to be in prisons so 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.559 that their family's not victimized next, because that's a real 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.400 possibility exactly. But that wasn't what was happening. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.000 That wasn't the case. I was totally surprised when I 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.280 went to trial and instead of the narration of the 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.640 story revolving around evidence, the prosecutor John Fogelman and Brenton 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.559 Davis were saying things like the crime scene was completely clean, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:00.680 there was absolutely no evidence, no physical evidence leftl behind. 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:06.920 And this in fact is evidence of satanic cult ritual activity. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:08.680 Because the devil finged up the crime scene basically. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.400 But when did they get the confession from Jesse, miss Kelly. 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.600 It was on June the third of nineteen ninety three, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.680 the day that we were arrested. Like, they got the 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.120 confession from him earlier dinner and day, and then they 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.200 came and arrested us. They used that to get the one. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.000 That's what they were telling you when they said we 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:26.479 have a friend exactly. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.120 So, but Jesse was a friend of yours though. 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.240 Right The first time I met Jesse was in the 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.880 sixth grade, when I first started school in Marion. I 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.480 was on the playground and I saw out the corner 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.920 of my eye somebody rushing towards me really fast, right, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.240 And I look, and next thing I know, a fist 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.600 is coming from my face. So I ducked and I 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:46.800 ran and it was Jesse. He chased me all around 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.839 the playground, around the Merry go Round, around the swing set. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.600 I was the new kid, you know. And next thing 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.320 I know, this girl, Donna Spurlock comes running up and 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.800 stops Jesse. Says Jesse, Jesse stop. 0:13:58.200 --> 0:13:58.560 Stop. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.440 Promise me, Jesse, you will leave him alone. And he 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.959 gave her his word that he would leave me alone. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:05.000 And he never messed with me. 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.800 Shout out to Donna on this johna thank you, way 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:09.720 to go go now. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.320 Years later he would move down the street from me. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.240 You know, we got to know each other a little 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.360 bit for a few months until he moved again to 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.960 Highland Trailer Park, when I never got to see him again. 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.200 So, Jesse, and this is where we turned to Barry. 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.360 In this case, you had sort of a typical situation right, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:26.880 Jesse had a very low IQ. 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:27.520 Right. 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.320 I think the z IQ was as low as seventy two. 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:29.960 Seventy two. 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.560 Right, he was a teenager. Jesse basically was the perfect 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:39.040 target for an unscrupulous detective or interrogator to extract a 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:39.960 confession from. 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.760 And the statistics are shocking on the number of juveniles 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:49.040 that give false confessions, but particularly juveniles in homicide cases. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.920 You know, when we're talking about people that were wrongfully 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:56.640 convicted of murders and were sentenced to death, there's an 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:02.200 extraordinarily high percentage of juveniles involved. The numbers are actually stunning, 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.160 to the point where the American Psychological Association, when they 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.280 wrote this white paper on what are the risk factors 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.640 for false confessions? Age is one of them. And we've 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.040 long known that. But this was the perfect storm type case. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:21.560 It's a horrible, horrible murder in a small town that 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.640 causes really a panic in the community, and they start 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.960 looking for the other They look for the strange person, Damien, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.920 and then they get Jason Baldwin as good friend, and 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.840 then they find the most vulnerable person to sort of 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.640 feed their version of events to. It turns out to 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.880 be Jesse MSS Kelly and from their bad things. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.000 Let me add this that most people don't know that 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.920 it's in the record of this case. The boys' bodies 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.800 were found May sixth, we were arrested Jesse Muskelly gave 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.200 the false confession on June third. But what many people 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.560 have not really noticed it. On May the fifteenth, just 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:59.800 a couple of weeks after the boys' bodies are found, 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.400 Jesse went to the police with another friend because there 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:07.040 was a tip line and a reward offered out for 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:09.880 any information on who may have committed this crime. Now, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.240 Jesse did not know who committed his crime, but he 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.360 wanted the reward money. He was imagining the brand new 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.480 truck he could buy his father and things like that. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.160 So him and another kid out of his trailer park 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.200 went to the police and said, there's this suspicious guy 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.560 in the town that you know, you need to check out. 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.440 And I don't know exactly what all he told them 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.480 about this guy or whatever, but they ended up telling him, Jesse, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.120 you need to come back with a more believable story 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.480 than that. Right, A few weeks come by go by. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.040 Now they're saying they've got that believable story. When they 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.040 gives the false confession against Damian and me right. 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:51.920 And we know kids that age, especially with low mental capacity, 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.880 are so susceptible to suggestion a. They want to please 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.000 the police, they want to be accepted, they want to 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.440 be sort of almost heroic in a certain sense. You're 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:04.000 trapped in this room with people you're totally overmatched intellectually 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.920 in terms of authority, in terms of power. You're scared. 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.800 You want to go home. They're allowed to lie to you, 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:13.159 which they do. They are, And it's actually been shown 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.199 that in many cases, you can convince an adolescent that 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:19.239 he actually did the crime that he didn't do and 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.119 get them to confess. That way, you get them so 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.440 confused with this psychological protocol, which is the read method 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.800 or other methods, that they eventually just they confess to 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:29.920 something that they may actually believe they did even they 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.760 didn't do it. So Jesse was the perfect target. He 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:35.959 confessed and then it's all downhill from there, because we 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.440 know that the confession is the most powerful piece of 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.800 evidence that you can have in acquirement. It overrides DNA 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.439 in the eyes of a jury. We've seen it over 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.200 and over again, which is insane. 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:48.040 Has psychologically overwhelming to people. You never want to think 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.680 that you would admit to doing something you didn't do. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.120 You always want to think that you have a strong 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.160 will power that you you would not cave in under 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.560 these coercial pressures. But that's blaming the victim. 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.320 He's paradoxical to Jason, right, because almost everyone's had the experience, 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.320 especially when they were an ao lescent, of lying and 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.080 saying they didn't do something that they did do. But 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.800 almost no one's had the experience of actually confessing to 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.440 something that they didn't do. So for a jury, it's 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.800 so foreign because they're like, it don't make no sense 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.040 to me. Well, that's one of the reasons we're working 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.160 so hard on getting videotaping of interrogation right. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.439 And you know, if there had been a videotape of 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.439 the Jesse mss kelly interrogation, I think we would have 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.440 found out that most of the details in there were 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.399 probably fed facts, things that the police believed to be 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.520 true but they suggested to him. And that's what's so extraordinary. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.080 Jerry Being, who is the lawyer for Stephen Avery and 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.399 was featured in Making a Murder, just wrote a book 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.000 called Illusion of Justice. His very good book about his 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.959 life story in his career. But the one thing that 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.400 he pointed out that is kind of amazing is that 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:55.200 the Innocence Movement was able to get videotaping of interrogations 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.359 as a reform in Wisconsin, but just for juveniles. And 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.479 it's for that reason that we were able to get 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.720 a videotape of the Brendan Dacy interrogation, which I think 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:07.960 you know, had an enormous impact in this country because 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.680 people could literally say how the facts were fed to 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:16.639