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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door, open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man.

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Speaker 3: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 1: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 1: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 1: with that.

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Speaker 4: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 4: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 2: They had been told that two prison officers would have

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Speaker 2: to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 3: And I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 3: all help broke loops.

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Speaker 5: But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 5: with Jason Flomm Today. I'm particularly thrilled, I actually even

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Speaker 5: a little nervous, because I have two of my heroes

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Speaker 5: in the studio today, Jason Baldwin of the West Memphis three.

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Speaker 5: In May nineteen ninety three, three young Arkansas boys, Stevie Branch,

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Speaker 5: Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore went missing.

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Speaker 1: Three little cub scouts, hog tied and left in an

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Speaker 1: Arkansas did.

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Speaker 4: One of the most controversial legal cases in the state's history.

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Speaker 4: A jury found the man guilty of murdering the eight

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Speaker 4: year old boys back in nineteen ninety three in what

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Speaker 4: prosecutors at the time had called some sort of a

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Speaker 4: satanic ritual.

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Speaker 1: Celebrities fighting for the teen's release claimed the kids were

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Speaker 1: railroaded because of their mullets, dark clothes, and fascination with

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Speaker 1: the occult.

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Speaker 3: Sticking killings that might have been part of a satanic ritual.

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Speaker 1: Convicted murderers Jason Baldwin, Jesse mss Kelly, and Damian Eccles

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Speaker 1: are now free men.

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Speaker 5: They spent seventeen years in prison for a crime that

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Speaker 5: stunned dark.

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Speaker 1: So West Memphis. Three would be allowed to walk out

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Speaker 1: of prison, but prosecutors agreed to sign off on the

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Speaker 1: deal only if the defendants would plead guilty.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show, Thank you, Jason, it was a

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Speaker 2: pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 5: We also have in the studio today a recidivius guest,

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Speaker 5: a repeat defender on wrongful conviction. The one and only

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Speaker 5: Barry Shack, co founder of the Innocence Project. Very welcome.

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Speaker 5: Great to be here. So Jason, let's turn to you

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Speaker 5: to start with. You have lived the most bizarrely extraordinary life,

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Speaker 5: having been wrongfully convicted at sixteen and then spending more

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Speaker 5: than half your life in maximum security prison. Let's go

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Speaker 5: back to the beginning in Arkansas. You grew up in

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Speaker 5: a very poor area. Poor areas, but nonetheless things were

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Speaker 5: pretty good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my family had gone through a series of hardships,

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Speaker 2: especially my mother. We had an abusive alcoholic step father,

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Speaker 2: but at this time she had strengthened herself and we

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Speaker 2: had kind of kicked him out because he was just

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Speaker 2: so dangerous to us and our family. And she had

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Speaker 2: gotten a job in Memphis as a truck dispatcher. And

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Speaker 2: so we had like a family plan. The trailer we

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Speaker 2: were living in my grandmother left us, so we were landowners.

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Speaker 2: We didn't really have to pay rent, We just had

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Speaker 2: to pay bills. My mother had a car, it was

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Speaker 2: paid for, and so the idea was that we would

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Speaker 2: work hard, my mom would work hard and save up

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Speaker 2: the money, and we would be able to move back

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Speaker 2: to Memphis, Tennessee, to a house and then we could

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Speaker 2: rent our trailer out and so we were in this

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Speaker 2: huge process of building our lives up again.

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Speaker 5: One day, one of the worst crimes probably in history

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Speaker 5: of America happens in this little town that you live in.

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Speaker 5: Three little eight year old boys were out riding their

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Speaker 5: bikes and they disappeared. Correct And were you aware at

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Speaker 5: the time that there were these boys who had disappeared?

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I remember where I was when I

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Speaker 2: first became where. It was May the sixth, a Thursday.

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Speaker 2: I was at school, and in the school we had

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Speaker 2: televisions and usually the televisions were reserved for like programs

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Speaker 2: related to the class and stuff we were taking. But

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Speaker 2: they just stopped class all of a sudden, turned the

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Speaker 2: TV on and everybody got quiet, and it was a

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Speaker 2: news bulletin saying they had just found the three boys' bodies.

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Speaker 2: So apparently they had been searching for the boys all

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Speaker 2: night at the time, I wasn't aware of that. When

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Speaker 2: I became aware, they had already found them, and everybody

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Speaker 2: was like just freaked out about it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm getting the chills thinking about it now. And

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Speaker 5: in a small town.

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Speaker 2: For me, you know, I just remember thinking it could

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Speaker 2: have been my little brother, and I was scared, you know.

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Speaker 2: And when I got home from school, my mom had

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Speaker 2: stayed from work so she could see us, you know,

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Speaker 2: because normally she she left for work at two thirty

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon and we get back home at ten

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Speaker 2: thirty at night from the trucking agency where she worked

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Speaker 2: as a dispatcher. And it was my job to, you know,

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Speaker 2: watch after my brothers and things like that.

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Speaker 5: So she was there.

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Speaker 2: She's like, hey, they found these boys. They were murdered.

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Speaker 2: They don't know who did it yet. I want you

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Speaker 2: all to stay at home until they find who is

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Speaker 2: responsible and just watch after each other.

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Speaker 5: So how many days went by before they started looking

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Speaker 5: at you guys as possible suspects? And I started with Damien, right.

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Speaker 2: I think they went and questioned Damien immediately, Like the boys'

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Speaker 2: bodies were found Thursday, they questioned him Friday.

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Speaker 5: Right, And that was because he was known in the

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Speaker 5: community as being a guy who wore black clothes, listened

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Speaker 5: to heavy metal music. He was goth, right, he was

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Speaker 5: a goth.

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Speaker 2: He was goth before the ward was coined.

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Speaker 5: Right, right, And you were just his friends.

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Speaker 2: Great, I was his best friend.

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Speaker 5: And he's an interesting guy, I mean, from everything I've

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Speaker 5: read and seen of him. He's a very intelligent guy,

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Speaker 5: and he's a very interesting and introspective guy.

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Speaker 2: One day, I was biking home and I passed him

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Speaker 2: in front of his house and he was skateboarding. I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, I know, you've seen you in study hall.

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Speaker 2: He goes, yeah, me and my family we just moved

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Speaker 2: out here. I was like, cool, skateboard. He's like, you

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Speaker 2: want to skate on it? I was like cool. And

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Speaker 2: next thing I know, he's riding my bike around. I'm

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Speaker 2: skateboarding on a skateboard. And it just developed from there

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Speaker 2: a great friendship.

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Speaker 5: When this hall came down, you were in tenh grade,

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Speaker 5: tenth grade. Tenth grade, let's just reflect on that for

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Speaker 5: a second. You're not even anywhere near being an adulted

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Speaker 5: tenth grade. All of a sudden, things got really really serious. Friday,

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Speaker 5: twenty four hours after the bodies are discovered, they're already

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Speaker 5: talking to Damien. Correct, when were you made aware that

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Speaker 5: you were actually going to be wrapped up in the summer.

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Speaker 2: The next day, they came to my house and knocked

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Speaker 2: on the door, and Detective Allen, Detective Ridge came and

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Speaker 2: summoned me. Damien and Dominie out of my house. Course,

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Speaker 2: so I was still there babysitting my brothers, you know,

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Speaker 2: because they haven't found whoever did this prime yet. So

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Speaker 2: the orders from my mom is still the same. We

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Speaker 2: got to stay at home and I got a babysit

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Speaker 2: And so when the police came, honestly, it didn't really

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Speaker 2: scare me or alarm me, because I figured they were

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Speaker 2: going everywhere. I figured it was door to door, you know,

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Speaker 2: that they were talking to everybody they could, you know,

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Speaker 2: and to me that made sense, you know, that was logical.

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Speaker 2: But what I didn't know that they were targeting us.

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Speaker 2: And the reason they were targeting us was when I

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Speaker 2: was eleven years old, when I first moved to Arkansas

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Speaker 2: from Memphis to two See and spent that summer there.

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Speaker 2: I was eleven, My brother Matthew was nine, my little

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Speaker 2: brother Terry was six. The trailer park was full of kids.

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Speaker 2: It had a lake, and we made friends fast. We

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Speaker 2: swam in the lake every day. We played hide and

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Speaker 2: go seek out in the soybean and cotton fields. Well

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Speaker 2: out in the middle of the cotton field there was

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Speaker 2: this oll ten shack and it had been there so

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Speaker 2: long that a tree grown up and lifted the roof

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Speaker 2: off of the building and pushed the wall in, and

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Speaker 2: so for generations kids had been playing hide and go

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Speaker 2: seek there. But one day the cops showed up and

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Speaker 2: arrested all of us, all the kids of the trailer park.

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Speaker 2: Took us to the police station, called our parents to

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Speaker 2: come get us and everything, and to make a long

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Speaker 2: story short, when I ended up going to court, and

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Speaker 2: of course all the kids in the trailer park ended

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Speaker 2: up going to court, the prosecution told the judge, I

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Speaker 2: think two years in the state reform school would do

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Speaker 2: these kids some good, and our public defender, mister Montgomery, said,

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Speaker 2: I agree, you're on her, And at that time my

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Speaker 2: mom jumped up said my sons aren't going to prison,

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Speaker 2: which basically what reform school is housing for children. I

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Speaker 2: was eleven eleven, my brother Matthew was nine, and in

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Speaker 2: the range of ages of these kids, which was almost

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Speaker 2: every kid in the neighborhood, was anywhere from nine. I

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Speaker 2: think the oldest kid was fourteen. But when my mom objected,

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Speaker 2: the judge called them up to the bench. Next thing

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Speaker 2: I know, instead of two years in the state reform school,

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Speaker 2: I've got five years probation and a five hundred dollars fine.

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Speaker 2: And for my mom that was a thousand dollars fine

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Speaker 2: because she had two sons, our friends down the street.

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Speaker 2: She had four of her kids affected by it for

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Speaker 2: playing hide and seek, for playing hide and go seek.

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Speaker 5: And now you know, in Arkansas, because I didn't know,

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Speaker 5: they gave.

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Speaker 2: Us criminal they charged was criminal trespassing and breathing and right,

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Speaker 2: and I remember our family budget for Christmas was only

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Speaker 2: one hundred dollars.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: And so now I'm on the record, right, I have

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Speaker 2: a record. I have what's called a criminal record. And honestly,

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Speaker 2: it really wasn't that bad. It wasn't that scary. I

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Speaker 2: had a probation officer. I would have to go to

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Speaker 2: his office, me and my brother would and he would

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Speaker 2: look at our case, and he didn't even he didn't

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Speaker 2: look at us like we were criminals, because we weren't.

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Speaker 2: He would buy us soda pops and ask how we

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Speaker 2: were doing in school, ask us for our report cards

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Speaker 2: and stuff. And of course when I was at school,

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Speaker 2: sometimes I'd be in class and intercom would come on

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Speaker 2: and they say, send Jason to the principal's office, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I go to the principal's office and there would

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Speaker 2: be mister Jones, I'm just checking in on you, you know.

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Speaker 2: And this went on for you know, until before I

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Speaker 2: got locked up. I became used to it, and so

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Speaker 2: that's how I got a record. When Damien came into

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Speaker 2: the picture, he still suffered the prejudice of the rest

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Speaker 2: of us kids out there, even though he didn't have

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Speaker 2: a record, right, But because he suffered the prejudice of it.

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Speaker 3: You know, I didn't know this part of the story.

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Speaker 3: So how could the public defender just immediately agree with

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Speaker 3: the court and say, yeah, they ought to be convicted

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Speaker 3: of a crime for playing hide and seek.

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Speaker 2: That's what he did. And you would think that the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor would be on the benefit of the people, the kids, right,

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Speaker 2: A reasonable person, a reasonable prosecutor, a reasonable officer of

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Speaker 2: the law, would have just called our parents, not charged us,

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Speaker 2: and says, hey, I know y'all have been playing hide

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Speaker 2: and go seek at this place for years, but y'all

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Speaker 2: just don't do that anymore.

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Speaker 5: I mean, of course, obviously, And it's interesting to Jason

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Speaker 5: because we see this now in poor and urban communities,

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Speaker 5: especially where they do these sweeps and they pick up

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Speaker 5: everybody with a stop and frisk and all this other stuff,

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Speaker 5: and all of a sudden, everybody's got a record, and

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Speaker 5: then when something happens, is all of a sudden, you're

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Speaker 5: the guy who's got a record, even though you didn't

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Speaker 5: do anything wrong. So now everything goes completely haywire and

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Speaker 5: you guys get arrested. Correct.

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Speaker 2: I remember when I was arrested. Thanks to public media,

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Speaker 2: I was expecting things when I was arrested. I was

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Speaker 2: expecting a fingerprints. I was expecting a mug shot, and

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Speaker 2: I was expecting a phone call. They mug shot in me.

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Speaker 2: But when they fingerprinted me, they didn't stop there. They

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Speaker 2: took a fingerprint, They took an entire hand in pression.

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Speaker 2: They took my entire foot prints right, and then they

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Speaker 2: took me to the hospital and they took hair samples,

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Speaker 2: they took saliva samples, they took blood samples. And now

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Speaker 2: at this point, I had already been engaged with the police,

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Speaker 2: and they had asked me, you know, questions and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and I had told them where I was at, and

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Speaker 2: they absolutely refused the truth. They kept telling me, no,

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Speaker 2: we've got another story. Your friend has told us that

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Speaker 2: you have done this, and that what you're telling us

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Speaker 2: is not true. I'm like, well, who is this friend?

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Speaker 2: And they refused to tell me, and honestly, I thought

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Speaker 2: they were lying. I'm like, no one has told you

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Speaker 2: that I'd done this, because I didn't do this. It

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Speaker 2: was like I was just arguing with a brick wall.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't make them understand where I was at and

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Speaker 2: what I was doing. So when they were taking these

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Speaker 2: samples from me, it gave me hope because I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: whoever committed this crime has left the footprint, has left

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Speaker 2: a handprint, has left a hair sample, has left a

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Speaker 2: saliva sample, or has left a blood sample, something for

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Speaker 2: the police to compare my samples to right, And so

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Speaker 2: that's where my hope was. Now a couple of months

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Speaker 2: go by and I'm in the county jail and they

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Speaker 2: had to take all these samples from me again because

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Speaker 2: they didn't have a core order for it, and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: please take them from me. You can take them today,

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Speaker 2: you can take them tonight, you can take them every

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Speaker 2: day until you are able to prove that I am innocent.

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Speaker 5: But what you're saying is that you actually did believe

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Speaker 5: that they were after the truth, which you would hope.

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Speaker 5: In a small community like that, you would think that

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Speaker 5: if for no other reason than a selfish reason, that

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Speaker 5: the authorities would want to get this bad, evil guy

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Speaker 5: out of the circulation and get to be in prisons so

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Speaker 5: that their family's not victimized next, because that's a real

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Speaker 5: possibility exactly. But that wasn't what was happening.

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Speaker 2: That wasn't the case. I was totally surprised when I

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Speaker 2: went to trial and instead of the narration of the

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Speaker 2: story revolving around evidence, the prosecutor John Fogelman and Brenton

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Speaker 2: Davis were saying things like the crime scene was completely clean,

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Speaker 2: there was absolutely no evidence, no physical evidence leftl behind.

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Speaker 2: And this in fact is evidence of satanic cult ritual activity.

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Speaker 5: Because the devil finged up the crime scene basically.

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Speaker 3: But when did they get the confession from Jesse, miss Kelly.

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Speaker 2: It was on June the third of nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 2: the day that we were arrested. Like, they got the

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Speaker 2: confession from him earlier dinner and day, and then they

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Speaker 2: came and arrested us. They used that to get the one.

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Speaker 3: That's what they were telling you when they said we

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Speaker 3: have a friend exactly.

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Speaker 5: So, but Jesse was a friend of yours though.

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Speaker 2: Right The first time I met Jesse was in the

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Speaker 2: sixth grade, when I first started school in Marion. I

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Speaker 2: was on the playground and I saw out the corner

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Speaker 2: of my eye somebody rushing towards me really fast, right,

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Speaker 2: And I look, and next thing I know, a fist

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Speaker 2: is coming from my face. So I ducked and I

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Speaker 2: ran and it was Jesse. He chased me all around

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Speaker 2: the playground, around the Merry go Round, around the swing set.

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Speaker 2: I was the new kid, you know. And next thing

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Speaker 2: I know, this girl, Donna Spurlock comes running up and

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Speaker 2: stops Jesse. Says Jesse, Jesse stop.

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Speaker 5: Stop.

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Speaker 2: Promise me, Jesse, you will leave him alone. And he

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Speaker 2: gave her his word that he would leave me alone.

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Speaker 2: And he never messed with me.

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Speaker 5: Shout out to Donna on this johna thank you, way

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Speaker 5: to go go now.

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Speaker 2: Years later he would move down the street from me.

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Speaker 2: You know, we got to know each other a little

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Speaker 2: bit for a few months until he moved again to

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Speaker 2: Highland Trailer Park, when I never got to see him again.

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Speaker 5: So, Jesse, and this is where we turned to Barry.

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Speaker 5: In this case, you had sort of a typical situation right,

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Speaker 5: Jesse had a very low IQ.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: I think the z IQ was as low as seventy two.

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Speaker 2: Seventy two.

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Speaker 5: Right, he was a teenager. Jesse basically was the perfect

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Speaker 5: target for an unscrupulous detective or interrogator to extract a

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Speaker 5: confession from.

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Speaker 3: And the statistics are shocking on the number of juveniles

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Speaker 3: that give false confessions, but particularly juveniles in homicide cases.

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Speaker 3: You know, when we're talking about people that were wrongfully

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Speaker 3: convicted of murders and were sentenced to death, there's an

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Speaker 3: extraordinarily high percentage of juveniles involved. The numbers are actually stunning,

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Speaker 3: to the point where the American Psychological Association, when they

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Speaker 3: wrote this white paper on what are the risk factors

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Speaker 3: for false confessions? Age is one of them. And we've

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Speaker 3: long known that. But this was the perfect storm type case.

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Speaker 3: It's a horrible, horrible murder in a small town that

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Speaker 3: causes really a panic in the community, and they start

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Speaker 3: looking for the other They look for the strange person, Damien,

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Speaker 3: and then they get Jason Baldwin as good friend, and

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Speaker 3: then they find the most vulnerable person to sort of

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Speaker 3: feed their version of events to. It turns out to

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Speaker 3: be Jesse MSS Kelly and from their bad things.

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Speaker 2: Let me add this that most people don't know that

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Speaker 2: it's in the record of this case. The boys' bodies

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Speaker 2: were found May sixth, we were arrested Jesse Muskelly gave

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Speaker 2: the false confession on June third. But what many people

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Speaker 2: have not really noticed it. On May the fifteenth, just

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks after the boys' bodies are found,

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Speaker 2: Jesse went to the police with another friend because there

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Speaker 2: was a tip line and a reward offered out for

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Speaker 2: any information on who may have committed this crime. Now,

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Speaker 2: Jesse did not know who committed his crime, but he

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Speaker 2: wanted the reward money. He was imagining the brand new

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Speaker 2: truck he could buy his father and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So him and another kid out of his trailer park

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Speaker 2: went to the police and said, there's this suspicious guy

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Speaker 2: in the town that you know, you need to check out.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know exactly what all he told them

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Speaker 2: about this guy or whatever, but they ended up telling him, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: you need to come back with a more believable story

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Speaker 2: than that. Right, A few weeks come by go by.

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Speaker 2: Now they're saying they've got that believable story. When they

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Speaker 2: gives the false confession against Damian and me right.

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Speaker 5: And we know kids that age, especially with low mental capacity,

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Speaker 5: are so susceptible to suggestion a. They want to please

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Speaker 5: the police, they want to be accepted, they want to

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Speaker 5: be sort of almost heroic in a certain sense. You're

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Speaker 5: trapped in this room with people you're totally overmatched intellectually

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Speaker 5: in terms of authority, in terms of power. You're scared.

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Speaker 5: You want to go home. They're allowed to lie to you,

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Speaker 5: which they do. They are, And it's actually been shown

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Speaker 5: that in many cases, you can convince an adolescent that

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Speaker 5: he actually did the crime that he didn't do and

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Speaker 5: get them to confess. That way, you get them so

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Speaker 5: confused with this psychological protocol, which is the read method

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Speaker 5: or other methods, that they eventually just they confess to

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Speaker 5: something that they may actually believe they did even they

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Speaker 5: didn't do it. So Jesse was the perfect target. He

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Speaker 5: confessed and then it's all downhill from there, because we

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Speaker 5: know that the confession is the most powerful piece of

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Speaker 5: evidence that you can have in acquirement. It overrides DNA

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Speaker 5: in the eyes of a jury. We've seen it over

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Speaker 5: and over again, which is insane.

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Speaker 2: Has psychologically overwhelming to people. You never want to think

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Speaker 2: that you would admit to doing something you didn't do.

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Speaker 2: You always want to think that you have a strong

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Speaker 2: will power that you you would not cave in under

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Speaker 2: these coercial pressures. But that's blaming the victim.

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Speaker 5: He's paradoxical to Jason, right, because almost everyone's had the experience,

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Speaker 5: especially when they were an ao lescent, of lying and

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Speaker 5: saying they didn't do something that they did do. But

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Speaker 5: almost no one's had the experience of actually confessing to

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Speaker 5: something that they didn't do. So for a jury, it's

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Speaker 5: so foreign because they're like, it don't make no sense

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Speaker 5: to me. Well, that's one of the reasons we're working

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Speaker 5: so hard on getting videotaping of interrogation right.

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Speaker 3: And you know, if there had been a videotape of

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Speaker 3: the Jesse mss kelly interrogation, I think we would have

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Speaker 3: found out that most of the details in there were

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Speaker 3: probably fed facts, things that the police believed to be

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Speaker 3: true but they suggested to him. And that's what's so extraordinary.

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Speaker 3: Jerry Being, who is the lawyer for Stephen Avery and

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Speaker 3: was featured in Making a Murder, just wrote a book

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Speaker 3: called Illusion of Justice. His very good book about his

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Speaker 3: life story in his career. But the one thing that

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Speaker 3: he pointed out that is kind of amazing is that

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Speaker 3: the Innocence Movement was able to get videotaping of interrogations

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Speaker 3: as a reform in Wisconsin, but just for juveniles. And

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Speaker 3: it's for that reason that we were able to get

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Speaker 3: a videotape of the Brendan Dacy interrogation, which I think

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Speaker 3: you know, had an enormous impact in this country because

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Speaker 3: people could literally say how the facts were fed to

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00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 3: him and his disability essentially and mental impairment, and how

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00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,240
Speaker 3: that can happen. And you know, when you actually look

403
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Speaker 3: at the statistics on false confessions in the Innocence Project dnaxonerations,

404
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 3: Brandon Garrett has done an analysis showing that in eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of the cases where innocent people proven by DNA

406
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Speaker 3: give false confessions, eighty percent of the cases, they are

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Speaker 3: confessing to details that only the police and the real

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Speaker 3: perpetrator would know. So how did that happen other than

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Speaker 3: the police feeding them the facts? So the videotaping is

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Speaker 3: critically important. Then I'd wager that none of you would

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Speaker 3: have ever been arrested if they videotaped that interrogation or

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Speaker 3: certainly the charges wouldn't have lasted that long.

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Speaker 5: Sitting in that court room, it's gotta be just the

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Speaker 5: most surreal and terrifying experience. You didn't testify, because why

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Speaker 5: would you didn't done anything? I guess right, I mean, well.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I thought I was going to testify. I talked

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Speaker 2: to my attorneys, I told them where I was at

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to testify, and they assured me. I

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Speaker 2: had my Albis, my great granduncle whose yard I was

420
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Speaker 2: mowing that day. I needed him to testify. And they

421
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 2: were like, do you have anybody that would have seen

422
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Speaker 2: you or known you where you were at that day

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Speaker 2: that was not your friend, that was not your family member,

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Speaker 2: that would not have so called reason to lie for you.

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Speaker 2: And I remember I was thinking, you know what, everything

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Speaker 2: I did that day, I played it over my mind

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Speaker 2: a million times, and I was like, after I mowed

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Speaker 2: my uncle's yard, I was at Walmart and I spent

429
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Speaker 2: a dollar of the money that my uncle paid me

430
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 2: to get us eatch a soda and we played a

431
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Speaker 2: video game and there was this Asian kid standing next

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Speaker 2: to us, waiting on us to get through playing. I

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Speaker 2: didn't know the guy. I didn't know what his name

434
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Speaker 2: was or anything, but I remembered him standing there and

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Speaker 2: watching us play, waiting on us to get through so

436
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 2: he could play right. So I said, if you could

437
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: find him, he has no connection to me and no

438
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: reason to lie in the eyes of the law, he

439
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: can verify everything I say is true. And my attorney's

440
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 2: actually found this guy and he actually told them, you know,

441
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 2: exactly the truth, that he saw me at Walmart playing

442
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 2: video games and I did not look like I'd committed

443
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 2: a murder or was about to go commit a murder

444
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 2: or anything. He wasn't called. Nobody was called. I wasn't called,

445
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: And next thing I know, my trial is over with.

446
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 5: Was over with it.

447
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 2: It was over with and I did not get called

448
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 2: or any of my witnesses.

449
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 3: But so upsetting about this case. And you know, it starts,

450
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 3: frankly with the public defender that's pleading you guilty to

451
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 3: a misdemeanor, not even pleading you guilty. He's saying, I

452
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: think it's a good idea that you get probation from

453
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: misdemeanor for playing hide and seek through this trial. Because

454
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 3: the Arkansas public defense system, as I recall it, there

455
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 3: had been a case where there'd been a finding that

456
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 3: it was unconstitutionally underfunded, and the three lawyers that were

457
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 3: representing Damian, yourself and Jesse mss kelly didn't have adequate funds.

458
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: I don't think people fully appreciated that the lawyers didn't

459
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 3: have money. That they were even given five thousand dollars

460
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 3: per client as money for investigators or experts, which there's

461
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: some question as to whether they ever spent it on

462
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: that because they were so short of funds that they

463
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 3: couldn't do an adequate defense, and they waived their right

464
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 3: in the state of Arkansas to take this trial out

465
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 3: of the media market. They had a right to keep

466
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 3: cameras out of the courtroom. And in a case like this,

467
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 3: where there's whole ridiculous prosecution is being done on the

468
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: grounds of satanism and community panic, it's just all very troubling.

469
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: And I think that the heart of it is unless

470
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: you have a well funded, robust system for giving people lawyers,

471
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 3: particularly charged with murder in these serious cases, and juvenile's

472
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: adequate counsel, the whole system implodes on itself in some horrible,

473
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 3: terrible way. You never had a chance.

474
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 5: A couple things really stuck out to me. One was

475
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 5: when they put that guy in the stand who was

476
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 5: testifying as an expert on satanism and witchcraft and all

477
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 5: this stuff, right, and the defense attorney quite rightly said

478
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 5: to him, where did you get certified at this? And

479
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 5: it turned out he had spent like an hour of

480
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 5: doing some online something or whatever. It was ridiculed. It

481
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 5: was laughable, right, The fact that he was calling himself

482
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 5: an expert was laughable. And that's one thing that I

483
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 5: was like, well, the jury's got to hear that. And

484
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 5: the other thing was when they had the doctor on

485
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 5: the stand, right, it was like an orthopedic surgeon or

486
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 5: something whatever he was, and they were asking him about

487
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 5: the fact the way that the one boy had been mutilated, right,

488
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 5: and he had the skin cut off his penis. I mean,

489
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 5: he's really pretty disgusting even things about it.

490
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: And which we found out later was animal predation. Animals

491
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: had actually started eating their bodies in the water that

492
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 2: they were submerging. And so when the police pulled Jesse

493
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: into the police station and they laid out the photos

494
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 2: of the bodies, they had him make up a story

495
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 2: for all the visible wounds. The calls and manner of

496
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 2: the wounds were unknown. They didn't know that all these

497
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: wounds were animal predation.

498
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 5: There's so much more to the story, and I want

499
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 5: to get to it. But the other things that were

500
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 5: so bizarre was the fact that they never investigated the

501
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 5: restaurant manager the bo Jangles who called up and said

502
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 5: there's a there was a black guy who came in

503
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 5: leading all over the place. He went right into the

504
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 5: women's bathroom. I mean, right there, there's two things that

505
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 5: if I'm a cop over going, you know what, I'm

506
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 5: gonna get covered in mud, like I'm gonna be like,

507
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 5: you know what, that's either a crazy ass coincidence or

508
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 5: I better get my ass over there and I better

509
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 5: go find out whatever the fuck there is to find

510
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 5: out about this, because that's weird, right, And maybe it

511
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 5: was a coincidence, because we don't know if that guy

512
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 5: was a killer, and we'll probably never know, but that's weird.

513
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 5: And the cop just came and sort of went up

514
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 5: to the drive through, might as well order have a

515
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 5: diet coke while she was there. She didn't need bother

516
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 5: to go inside and look at the situation. I mean,

517
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 5: you know, well, to give.

518
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: Officer Regina mixed the benefit of the doubt. At that time,

519
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: the guy had already left. She's on a mission to

520
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: find some missing kids, right, so she's probably thinking, Okay,

521
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: he's not in there. I can probably just drive around

522
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: and I will run into him and get him that away, right.

523
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: But what is unacceptable is the next day when they

524
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: have found the bodies, and the bodies were found very

525
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: close to this Bojangles restaurant, and so then they're thinking, Okay,

526
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 2: a guy came out of the bayou where the bodies

527
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: were found, covered in mud and blood. We need that, right,

528
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: So they go in there and they get just the

529
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 2: very miniscule scraping of blood samples. And there were a

530
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: pair of glasses, sunglasses that the guy left behind. And

531
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 2: you wear glasses, and you wear glasses very adjason. You know,

532
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: glasses are the perfect thing for collecting fingerprints, right. But

533
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: Detective Ridge threw the glasses away, and he threw a

534
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: toilet paper roll completely saturated in blood away.

535
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 5: So back to the trial, back to the courtroom. If

536
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 5: you remember when the jury went out, what did you

537
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 5: think was going to happen?

538
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: I sincerely believed that we would go home, they would

539
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: find us not guilty, that they would be able to

540
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: totally ignore all the flaming prejudicial stuff that the prosecution

541
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: was bringing up about Satanism and everything and look at

542
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 2: the case for what it was and follow the evidence.

543
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 5: See.

544
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: And this very interesting because one of the things that

545
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: we've identified as a risk factor in being wrongfully convicted

546
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: is just being innocent. Any objective observer watching the way

547
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 3: the evidence went in at that trial would have told you, Jason,

548
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: that you were in big trouble. But an innocent person thinks, oh,

549
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: it's all a big mistake. It's just the way you sad.

550
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 3: Thank god they collecting all this saliva from me and

551
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 3: a footprint and DNA and HARES, because you know this

552
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 3: will all prove that I didn't do it right. So

553
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: I can't begin to tell you the number of stone

554
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 3: called innocent people I've spoken to who when you read

555
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: the transcripts of their trial, and you're one of the

556
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: few that we have a video of your trial, you'd say,

557
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 3: oh my god, they must have been terrified that you

558
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: know they were going down. And yet innocent people don't

559
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 3: think that, because they say this system should work. This

560
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 3: is some horrible mistake that's going to be corrected.

561
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 2: And so you're told all your life that the purpose of

562
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: the judicial system is to find the truth, when really

563
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: it's to get a conviction.

564
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 5: Okay, but then the jury comes back in and the

565
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 5: worst thing imaginabile happen, and you're sentenced to life in prison.

566
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,920
Speaker 2: The first thing I thought about was my mom and brothers.

567
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: As I told you, we were putting our lives back together.

568
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: My brother Matthew was fourteen, my little brother Terry was nine. Well,

569
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 2: during the trial, school starts back up. My little brothers

570
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: have to go back to school. They harassed my brothers,

571
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: and so my brothers would get into fights with kids

572
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 2: in school and they go to the principal's office and

573
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: the principal will be like, oh, you're his brother. So

574
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: they get expelled. For my mom, her employer, the trucking

575
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: agency in Memphis, tells her, hey, I understand you were

576
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: gonna want to be at the hearings and the trial

577
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: for your son, and that's all find and Danny, you

578
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: just won't have a job to come back to. Thankfully,

579
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 2: our trailer was owned, our car was owned, but they

580
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: didn't have money to pay for electricity anymore. They got

581
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: food stamps so they could eat, but they couldn't put

582
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: gas to come and visit me or anything. Very often,

583
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: I think I saw them just a small handful of times,

584
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: and so I thought about them, you know, not only

585
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: what they've gone through, but what they may continue to

586
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: face because of this. Because at the time, even though

587
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: they were being treated like this, I thought, well, when

588
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: the jury finds me innocent, these people will come forward

589
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: and apologize to all of us, and my brothers will

590
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: be able to go back to school, my mom will

591
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: get her job back, and things will be fine. But

592
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: that wasn't the case, you know, and so I'm worried

593
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: more for them than for myself.

594
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: That's remarkable. I don't know if you know how remarkable

595
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 5: that sounds of me. It's so crazily selfless, especially at

596
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 5: your young agent facing what you were facing.

597
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: And so we've been through a lot together as a

598
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: family over the years.

599
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 5: So then you end up getting sent to maximum security prison.

600
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 2: Right when you first go to prison, and you're not

601
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: going to death row, you go to what's called a

602
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: diagnostic unit, and that's where they evaluate you mentally and

603
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: physically to determine what your parent unit in the department

604
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: corrections will be because they have a myriad of prisons

605
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: on various different old slave plantations in the South, and

606
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 2: each of them are different and in different ways by

607
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: age and your strength and things like that. And when

608
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: I went to diagnostics, they saw me like you saw

609
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: me as a small, innocent kid, and diagnostics they were like,

610
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 2: we've got to send you to one of two places, Jason,

611
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: or you're not gonna make it PC Protective Custody or

612
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: what's called SPU Suicide Prevention Unit and suicide prevention you

613
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: will have your own cell. And you know, I looked

614
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: at it like this. At the time, we didn't have

615
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: very many people on our side. In fact, it was

616
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: just us, and I was thrust in through this incredibly

617
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: impossible situation, and I was escorted everywhere I went in

618
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 2: the prison, and so I'd see the people in SPU

619
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: going to chow and they'd be doing the thorozine shuffle

620
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: because they're so heavily medicated. And I had a fear

621
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: that if I acquiesced and let them put me in SPU,

622
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 2: that they would forcefully medicate me and I would lose

623
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: my mind and my ability to think and reason and

624
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: to fight and so I said, no, I can't do that.

625
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: And as far as the PC protective custody, anybody knows

626
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: if you are saying you are so weak that you

627
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: need protection, that people are going to see that and

628
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 2: prey on you even more. And so I knew I

629
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: had to some way, some fashion stand on my own

630
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: two feet in there and earn everybody's respect back from

631
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: the inmates and guards a light and they said, well,

632
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: you not going to one of these places. We're gonna

633
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: have to send you to Barner. And at the time,

634
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 2: they had just shipped all these guys from the Little

635
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: Tucker Unit to Barner and they were destroying the place.

636
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: They said, it was just chaos and destruction and just

637
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: incredibly violent place, and that's where they were going to

638
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: have to send me. And I just told them that

639
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: that's what you gotta do. You got to do it.

640
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: And so they did eventually send me to Barner Unit,

641
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: and it was everything they said it was.

642
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 5: How did you survive there?

643
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: You know, by the grace of God, you know, as

644
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: you said, I guess, I'll say I was incredibly lucky,

645
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: but I was incredibly blessed to I went in there.

646
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: They opened up and mister Patten stepped out, and his

647
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 2: clerk stepped out, and mister Panton says, in may Bowlin,

648
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: I'm mister Patten, the classification officer. I'll be assigning you

649
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: to your housing unit. And this is my clerk, Mojo.

650
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: And they tell me you got to stand up for

651
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: yourself in here or these people will just will run

652
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: you over and turn you into a sex slave and

653
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: all these horrible things and make you pay money for

654
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: protection and stuff like that. And so they assign me

655
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: to seven barracks, and seven barracks at the Barner unit

656
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: is intake barracks. I walk down the hall and as

657
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: I'm walking, I'm walking next to this barracks and it's

658
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: got bulletproof glass three stories high, and these guys are

659
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: beating on it. Right, it's plexiglass, it's got chicken wire

660
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 2: in it, and there are sell bars on the inside

661
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: of it going all the way up three stories. And

662
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: I look and these guys are literally climbing this thing.

663
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: They are climbing it above one another, hanging on to

664
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: the bars, looking at me, beating the glass and pointing

665
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: at me. Because they've been watching the trial on TV

666
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 2: and the hearings and stuff for an entire year. It's

667
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: like a pep rally. Right, They're finally going to have

668
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: their hands on me, right. And I get there and

669
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: Sergeant Ivy's working the door and he tells me. He says,

670
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: if you go in there and stand up for you yourself,

671
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: I got your back. If not, they got you. And

672
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: I'm just holding the only thing I have is a bible,

673
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: a couple of letters from a mom. That's it in

674
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: a little paper bag. And they opened the door and

675
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: put me in there, and next thing I know, somebody

676
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: swings a fist at me. I duck that one. The

677
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: next one catches me and I'm fighting. Immediately the door

678
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 2: opens back up, there's may sprayed. Sergeant Ivy's yanking people

679
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: off of me. I'm on the ground and he says,

680
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 2: are you ready to go to PC?

681
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 5: Now?

682
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: Do you need to catch out? And the guys are hollering,

683
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: catch out, bitch, catch out, oh all these horrible things,

684
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, which catch out means to leave the barracks

685
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: and to go and to protective custody. And like I said,

686
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: you know, I knew I needed to earn these people's

687
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: respect because I did not know how long I would

688
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: be there. I know I'm innocent, but I don't know

689
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: how long I'm going to be in this prison, and

690
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: so I tell them no leave me. And next thing

691
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: I know, we go from the dayroom tier downstairs. The

692
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: guys like push all the racks up against the wall.

693
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: They circle around us, and I'm fighting this guy. And

694
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: then I'm fighting this guy and there's people hitting me

695
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: from behind. So it's kind of orderly and fair, but

696
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: then again it's kind of not. And so I fight

697
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 2: the whole barracks that Friday, everybody. And then they call

698
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 2: shower call and the barracks next door, eight bricks, they

699
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: call two barracks at a time to go to shower.

700
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: The shower holds one hundred people, and so when I

701
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 2: get there, I gotta fight all these guys from eight barracks.

702
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: And so I fought all week in. My whole face

703
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 2: will swoll up, my fists will swoll up, my body

704
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: was beat. And so I do this all weekend. I

705
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: get into fights in the chowhu even like because there's

706
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: even other people from other barracks is wanting to get

707
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 2: to me in the chow haw and stuff like that.

708
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: Come Monday morning, I'm barely even able to walk, you know,

709
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: and like the guys were like just pushing me and

710
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 2: guiding me a bit and which way to go and stuff,

711
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: because I can't even see even less than I normally

712
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: do because my eyes and stuff are all swollen up.

713
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: And I just remember thinking that whole weekend about this

714
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: job out in the fields, host squad. There's gonna be sunshine,

715
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a down, and I'm gonna get to

716
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: witness that. I was just looking forward to that first dawn,

717
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, that that morning air. And so there was

718
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: a part of me just no matter how bad it was,

719
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: I was just looking forward to that first dawn. I'm like,

720
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 2: if I can make it to that, you know, if

721
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 2: I can make it to that, that's something good. And

722
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: then I do, you know. I get there and they

723
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: have us march in what they call a deuce two

724
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: by two, and you march and you go through the

725
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: sally port and they count you off and and everything,

726
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 2: and you're a part of what's called host squad. And

727
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: they march me way off out in the fields and

728
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: in the country and everything. And I'm in the middle

729
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: of the line. We're cleaning out this ditch of bermuda grass,

730
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: and the gouger whose job it is to like talk

731
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: back to you to make you work harder, says Bowling.

732
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: Drop your hole. So I drop my hoe. He says,

733
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 2: step out of the line. I step out of the line.

734
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: He says, Sergeant Norris wants to speak to you. And

735
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: Sergeant Norris is up on the heel on his horse,

736
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: and I go walking towards him, stumbling towards him, more

737
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 2: like it, And he says, walk over to that truck

738
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: where the major is. He wants you. And so I

739
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: stumble up to this truck and the major is the

740
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: field major over the entire field operations. His name is Gibson,

741
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: and he's got his pistol out on the driver's side door,

742
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 2: and he yells out over my head, I'm taking Baldwin

743
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 2: with me, and he says, you better keep up. I'd

744
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 2: hate to have to kill you for escape. And so

745
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: he starts driving down this dirt road out on these

746
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: old plantation fields, and I'm running trying to keep up

747
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: with him. I was done so bad that weekend. I

748
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: think I have a size twelve boot on one foot,

749
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 2: a size ten on the other. I don't have any

750
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: socks on my feet are sliding around. I've already got

751
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 2: blood blisters on my feet and everything. Of course, I'm

752
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: all beat up. My hands now are like bleeding from blisters,

753
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: not just the tops from fighting, but my hands from

754
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: blisters and stuff. And he's saying all these things I've

755
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: been hearing from people, all these hateful things, you know,

756
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: And I already know that there's no talking to him,

757
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: there's no communicating with him, because he already believes what

758
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: he wants to believe. And he's calling me this horrible satan,

759
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: tanic child murderer, and how I'm gonna die and deserve

760
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: to die. And we get way so far away, like

761
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: even though I'm blind, like I could look back and

762
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: still see a stretch of white, but I kept going

763
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: further and further and further in the white just disappeared

764
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: over the horizon, and it's just me and him way

765
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: out here, and then these feels, and he's got his

766
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: gun on me, and we stop, and he looks me

767
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: in the eye and says, you kill those boys, You

768
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 2: deserve to die, telling the same thing I told Judge Burnew.

769
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: I tell him I'm innocent, and we just sit there

770
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: and he's got his gun in my face and we

771
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: sit there. I don't know what he was thinking. I

772
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: don't know if he was thinking, by kill Jason, that

773
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 2: makes me a child killer too. I don't know if

774
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: he was thinking that. I don't know if he looked

775
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: at me and saw his son. I don't know if

776
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: he just looked at me and saw me as a

777
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: scum of the earth. But a long time dragged by,

778
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: and he took the gun back, cranked the vehicle back

779
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: up and says, come on, we're going back. And he

780
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: turned the vehicle around and I made the long march

781
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: back to my squad put me back in the middle

782
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: of the line.

783
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 5: I mean, this is the craziest fucking story imaginable. We're

784
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 5: going to fast forward to eighteen years later. Right, So,

785
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 5: now you've been in prison for longer than you had

786
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 5: been alive before you went to prison. Right, You were

787
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 5: sixteen when you got arrested.

788
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 2: That was a big deal to me too when it happened.

789
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 5: Eighteen years in prison, and now finally the tide turns,

790
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 5: the public sentiment turns, and the government realized that they've

791
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 5: got the wrong guys exactly. They don't want to let

792
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 5: you out, but they realize that they're going to have to.

793
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 5: So then one day you get offered sort of almost

794
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 5: like a Sophie's choice, right, because they came to you

795
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 5: and offered an Alfred plan and Barry could just speak

796
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: on an Alfred place.

797
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 3: Second, this is a plea where in theory there's no

798
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: admission of guilt. Sometimes they call them nolo cantandre please,

799
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: where you say I know that the state has enough

800
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 3: evidence if they take it to trial that they arguably

801
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: could get a conviction, but I am innocent. And then

802
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: they basically say, okay, we're going to sentence you to

803
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: time served, but you get a conviction on your record

804
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: and to a lesser charge. But that was the horrible

805
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 3: choice that you Jason Rawford, and it was a deal

806
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: that would cover everyone, right.

807
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 5: And that's the tricky part, right, because she had resolved

808
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 5: that you were never going to take an Alfred plea,

809
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 5: because you had worked in the law library, you knew

810
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 5: what you were doing. You're now a man, and you're

811
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 5: a smart guy as well, and so you had made

812
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 5: this decision. But they made it impossible for you to

813
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 5: stick to your guns because of the fact that they

814
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 5: were going to execute your friend. Is that right?

815
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: They had my best friend's life at stake. I remember

816
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: very well. It was a Wednesday, August tenth of twenty eleven.

817
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 2: At this time, I'm working in the school department. I'm

818
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: helping people get their GDS and stuff like that. And

819
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: I came in from work and they're like, bow and

820
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: go back to the control center. You got an attorney visit.

821
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, anytime I got an attorney visit,

822
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: it's scheduled well in advanced. And I get there and

823
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 2: it's Blake and he says, what if I told you

824
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: you could go home tomorrow? And I said, I hear

825
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: a button there, and so he explains to me the

826
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: alpha player. I told him, no, we have an evidentiary

827
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: hearing set for December to twenty second, which isn't that

828
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: far away, and we have all the evidence on our side.

829
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: We're in front of what I believe to be a

830
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: reasonable judge, Judge Laser.

831
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 5: We're going to.

832
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: Prove our innocence and we're gonna win, and we're going

833
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 2: to go home. But the choice wasn't all mine. I

834
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,839
Speaker 2: can make that choice for myself, because you've heard how

835
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 2: horrible it was for me going in well. By this time,

836
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: I'd won the respect of the guards, I'd won the

837
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: respect of the inmates, and instead of people cursing me

838
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: and beating me, they were hugging me and praying for me,

839
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: wishing for my well being. And so even though it

840
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: was not a life I deserved being in prison, it

841
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 2: was a life I had built at the same time,

842
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: So it wasn't so bad at that point. But for Damien,

843
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: he's on death row. It's like being in the hole

844
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: all the time. And even if they didn't kill him

845
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: for decades more, his health was declining. He's basically being

846
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: tortured every single day, and there wasn't anything really to

847
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 2: say that they wouldn't execute him, because that was their

848
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: intent there. I had this real nightmare the entire time

849
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 2: I was in there that one day they actually did

850
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: execute Damien. And honestly, after the Alfred plea was brought

851
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 2: to me and they'd said it was all or nothing,

852
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: and I thought to myself, if I did not accept

853
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: this Alpha plea and they eventually killed Damien, I would

854
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,280
Speaker 2: not be able to live with myself because I basically

855
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: had the power to save his life, and so I

856
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: had to make the decision. I had to say, what

857
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: is most important? Is it my reputation or is it

858
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: an innocent man's life? And I had to make that

859
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: choice because that's what is real. That's the realest thing

860
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: to save an innocent life, and so to hell with

861
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 2: my reputation.

862
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 5: You know, it's not just your reputation. It's also the

863
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 5: fact that you can't sue for compensation exactly, and you're

864
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 5: still a convicted felon.

865
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: And in any moment they can come and just take

866
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: me and accuse me of something, just as they've done

867
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: before that I'm totally innocent up and they can put

868
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: me in prison for twenty one years, right because of

869
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: your record.

870
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 3: Yes, And let's not forget because this is a great dilemma.

871
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 3: Having been involved in assisting all the different lawyers in

872
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 3: this case, because by this point there was a legal

873
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 3: team representing you, team representing Damien, one representing Jesse the

874
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: way it should be, because of these kinds of potential conflicts,

875
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 3: although everybody had been working together in gathering all this evidence. People,

876
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 3: you know, frankly, ordinary criminal defense lawyers don't understand this

877
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 3: that innocent people who have been in prison for so long.

878
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 3: It is such a big part of your identity. It

879
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 3: is yourself that I mean, so many clients. If they

880
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: had offered you parole, right if you admit to committing

881
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 3: the crimes, you would.

882
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 5: Have turned that down exactly.

883
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you were going to fight for your

884
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 3: innocence no matter what. And to make you give that

885
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 3: up so that your best friend didn't get executed is

886
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 3: one of the worst coercive And as you said, it's

887
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 3: a sophie's choice. We all felt horrible for you. I mean,

888
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: you felt horrible for everybody, but you know, we all

889
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: knew how horrible that was for you. In particular. You

890
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 3: are so articulate and so well read and so insightful.

891
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: I've never asked you, I mean, did you get a

892
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: ged or what was your level of education by the

893
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: time you were getting out.

894
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 2: I only filed one grievance the entire time I was incarcerated,

895
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: and it was for my education. After I did my

896
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: initial sixty days on what they call whole squad, you

897
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: go up for classification and you can get a different job,

898
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: and they gave me a job in the kitchen. Well,

899
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 2: like you know, I was rested on my last' schol

900
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: for the tenth grade, and so I put in a

901
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: request for an interview to go to school to get

902
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: my GED. They wrote me back very quickly, so you

903
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: have life without you don't need an education. Well, and

904
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 2: so I filed my only grievance and said my education

905
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: is important to me. I need school. And it went

906
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: through the processes and I won, and they let me

907
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: go to school, and I got my GED thanks to

908
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: the movement, because of the movies WM three dot org.

909
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 2: They put together a college fund and paid for me

910
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: to get some college education. And I wasn't able to

911
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 2: get a complete college education in there, but I was

912
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 2: able to get a lot of education. And it followed

913
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: me here and now I've got my associates degree. I'm

914
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: about to go back to school from bachelors with the

915
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: hope to go to law school after that.

916
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 5: So now here you are. You've just moved from Seattle

917
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 5: to Austin, and tell us about this organization because now you,

918
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 5: like so many of these honreies, you are somebody who

919
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 5: is standing up for the rights of others, to help

920
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 5: other people have been wrongfully convicted, to prevent people from

921
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 5: being wrongfully convicted. And you have your own organization you're

922
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 5: now the deputy director. Congratulations, thank you. So can you

923
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 5: tell us about that.

924
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: There's Proclaimed Justice. My good friend John Harden I built

925
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 2: this organizations to help people like me, like Damian and Jesse,

926
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: who who are in prison forever for something they didn't do.

927
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: There are a lot of amazing and beautiful organizations that

928
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: do this, like you know, like the Innocence Project. There

929
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: are still so many people that need help and we

930
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: can't possibly cover them all. After experiencing what I experienced,

931
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 2: I don't want people to suffer that. I don't want

932
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: anybody else to go through that, and so the people

933
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: who are I want to rescue from it, and I

934
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: want policy change to make it more difficult for innocent

935
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: people to be found guilty.

936
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 5: And if people, Jason, if people want to help Proclaim Justice,

937
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 5: it's proclaim justice dot org. Correct and you can go

938
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 5: to the website. You have the Instagram as well, Proclaim Justice. Well,

939
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 5: let's go to you first, Barry, because I want you

940
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 5: to have the last word. So, Barry, what do you

941
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 5: take away from all of this and what can people do?

942
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 4: Well?

943
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: You know, there are innocence organizations all across the country, frankally,

944
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 3: now even the world as part of our Innocence Network

945
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 3: and other organizations such as Proclaim Justice where people can

946
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 3: get involved. You should look at the innocence organization in

947
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: your area. Whether you live in California or Texas or

948
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 3: New York or any place you know there is a

949
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: local innocence organization that you can get involved with, and

950
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,479
Speaker 3: the issue is just get involved. These organizations need help

951
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: spreading the word, raising money. But now we're at to

952
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 3: point in time in our country's history where people have

953
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 3: to get involved in the local level. Who's going to

954
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 3: be elected district attorney? Everybody should care about that. We

955
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 3: need progressive district attorneys who care about justice in each

956
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 3: different jurisdiction. There are issues on the ballot or in

957
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: the state legislature that the policy department at the Innocence

958
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 3: Project and the innocence organizations in our network are pushing

959
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 3: in virtually every state. So there's a lot of ways

960
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: to get involved.

961
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 5: Jason, I'm going to turn over to you for last words.

962
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 5: What would you like to share educate yourselves.

963
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: One of the most maddening, infuriating things. It's a phrase

964
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: that I've encountered as being innocent, and it's this phrase,

965
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: right here, they all say that. Right, you've heard this

966
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: When you say, well, I'm innocent and someone shuts you

967
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 2: down by basically saying they all say that, Educate yourselves, people,

968
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: and learn that innocent people do go to prison, Innocent

969
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 2: people do fall victim to the justice system, and they

970
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: don't all say that. Just the innocent ones. The people

971
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: who go to prison who are actually guilty. The justice

972
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: system makes it easier for them because they can make

973
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: deals and things like that and take a plea bargain.

974
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 2: But when you're innocent, you can't do that. Only thing

975
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: you can do is say I'm innocent, and next thing

976
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: you know, you're going to jury trial and they're trying

977
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: to basically take your entire life from you. And so

978
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 2: it's much more difficult when you're innocent than is when

979
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 2: you are guilty.

980
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 5: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

981
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,720
Speaker 5: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

982
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 5: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

983
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 5: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

984
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 5: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

985
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 5: org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

986
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 5: like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

987
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 5: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

988
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 5: nominated composer Jay Rowlph. Be sure to follow us on

989
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 5: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

990
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava

991
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 5: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one