Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. This episode briefly mentions both
Speaker 1: suicide and sexual assault. Well, you'll notice that a lot
Speaker 1: of the challenges is that they tend to on some level,
Speaker 1: usually focus on an issue that we are as a society.
Speaker 1: Feeling a lot of anxiety about textual school shootings, suicide
Speaker 1: and mental health assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are
Speaker 1: anxieties that we as a society have. There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Tod and this is
Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet, nationals lab of
Speaker 1: Teacher Day, National School Shooting Day, the blackout Challenge. You've
Speaker 1: probably heard of these challenges that supposedly originate on TikTok,
Speaker 1: encouraging young people to harm themselves, others or spread panic
Speaker 1: about harm being done to them. But what's behind these
Speaker 1: challenges and what happens when concern around social media platforms
Speaker 1: like TikTok turns into a moral panic around technology. To
Speaker 1: find out more, I turned a friend of the show
Speaker 1: Abby Richards. Well, Abby, it is so nice to have
Speaker 1: you back. You are a friend of the show. We
Speaker 1: love being able to talk to you for folks who
Speaker 1: may not be familiar with you. Tell us who you are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my name is Abby Richards, and I'm an independent miss
Speaker 1: and disinformation researcher who focuses on TikTok. You are someone
Speaker 1: I know that I can always count on for like
Speaker 1: a sobering, kind of like clearheaded breakdown of what's happening
Speaker 1: on TikTok, which I think is so important because the
Speaker 1: platform can be so it can just be information overload
Speaker 1: coming at you all the time, you know, So it's
Speaker 1: like nice to have someone who can actually wade through
Speaker 1: it and break it down. I am relieved to hear
Speaker 1: that you feel like I am clear headed. So necessarily
Speaker 1: I look at TikTok and it's just so vast and
Speaker 1: huge that even as someone who studies it professionally, sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't have a full understanding. I'll never
Speaker 1: have a full understanding of this chaotic mess of an
Speaker 1: app that we have to deal with and all of
Speaker 1: its beauties and downfalls and little niche cultures. Um, but
Speaker 1: I try my best. So I think you do a
Speaker 1: great job. But actually that's like a great place to start,
Speaker 1: which is that you really like TikTok is your platform.
Speaker 1: It's the platform that you study professionally in terms of
Speaker 1: disinformation research, and it's also where you make a lot
Speaker 1: of your content educating folks about disinformation and conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1: But you're also someone who is pretty honest about some
Speaker 1: of the dangers and downfalls inherent in the app. What
Speaker 1: is that like to sort of have this this platform
Speaker 1: that is in some ways so rich and allows you
Speaker 1: to to tell stories and reach people and educate folks
Speaker 1: in such interesting ways, but on the other hand, does
Speaker 1: have its laws should should be looked out with a
Speaker 1: little bit of scrutiny like any other platform. It's a
Speaker 1: love hate relationship. I I I mean, I'm the first
Speaker 1: admit that I benefit from TikTok. I mean I have
Speaker 1: a platform there. I've found that it's been an incredibly
Speaker 1: useful tool in educating people and creating resources where people
Speaker 1: can go, uh to learn about these very complex issues
Speaker 1: like there there is room for a nuance on TikTok
Speaker 1: and there is room for learning on TikTok. Uh. That
Speaker 1: is not to say that it has no hitfalls whatsoever.
Speaker 1: There are so many strengths of TikTok offers as far
Speaker 1: as communication in education in community building. And then there's
Speaker 1: also so many weaknesses when it comes to how the
Speaker 1: algorithm chooses for you what you see, and the types
Speaker 1: of content that go viral the most easily, and the
Speaker 1: types of rhetoric that encourages so I see both sides
Speaker 1: of the coin. The ubiquity of social media platforms like
Speaker 1: TikTok have given rise to panics around so called challenges
Speaker 1: and trends, trends that stoke fear in young people and
Speaker 1: their parents. Now, this kind of thing is nothing new.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, we grew up freaked out
Speaker 1: about things like razor blades and Halloween candy, or gang
Speaker 1: members flashing their headlights to mark you for an attack.
Speaker 1: But with the rise of social media, these kinds of
Speaker 1: trends can spread much more quickly than they ever could
Speaker 1: just being whispered about in the cafeteria. In April of
Speaker 1: last year, I saw video circulate on TikTok responding to
Speaker 1: videos calling a day in April national Rape Day. Basically,
Speaker 1: everyone was upset and panicked about alleged videos declaring that
Speaker 1: on this day rape was legal. Only a TikTok spokesperson
Speaker 1: said that no such video ever really existed, there were
Speaker 1: only users making videos responding with decrying National Rape Day
Speaker 1: or sharing warnings and tips on how to stay safe,
Speaker 1: and in responding, they were only legitimizing this hoax, from
Speaker 1: kids being kept home from school to wasting law enforcements
Speaker 1: time and resources panic around These challenges that start online
Speaker 1: can create real world disruptions. I know the very first
Speaker 1: time I ever encountered a sort of dubious quote unquote
Speaker 1: challenge or or like thing on TikTok, I think it
Speaker 1: was National Rape Day, where it was like, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was the first time, and you know, I work for
Speaker 1: a gender justice organization, So when I saw that, my
Speaker 1: first instinct was, this is horrible. We need to reach
Speaker 1: out to TikTok. We need to make sure that, you know,
Speaker 1: they take this down. They need to know about this.
Speaker 1: But then, you know, looking at it, it was a
Speaker 1: situation where I almost kind of got a little bit
Speaker 1: duped by something that maybe wasn't a legitimate, organically grown
Speaker 1: quote unquote challenge or day or you know, you know,
Speaker 1: content stream on the platform. But I like, in talking
Speaker 1: about it was sort of helping to legitimize it, helping
Speaker 1: to make it something that maybe felt like a legitimate thing,
Speaker 1: even though it wasn't Yeah, National Right Day for those
Speaker 1: who don't know, it was allegedly April, and the idea
Speaker 1: going around was that there was some group of essentially
Speaker 1: evil men out in a group chat somewhere planning to
Speaker 1: all go out and rape on that I believe it
Speaker 1: was a Saturday, uh April. And aside from the fact
Speaker 1: that that is really just not at all how sexual
Speaker 1: assault works and is not how it's perpetrated against victims, um,
Speaker 1: it was also something that we really just awareness videoed
Speaker 1: into existence. There was no evidence of this initial threat
Speaker 1: at all, but because everybody went, oh, well it might
Speaker 1: be a threat, it might be a problem, might be
Speaker 1: a problem, then they I'll start turning around and sharing
Speaker 1: it everywhere just as a warning. And then we end
Speaker 1: up in a position where millions and millions of people
Speaker 1: felt afraid for their lives that day, like people didn't
Speaker 1: leave the house, and we saw the same thing just
Speaker 1: like happen all over again just a few months ago
Speaker 1: with the National School Shooting Day, where tons of kids
Speaker 1: were then absent from school because of a threat that
Speaker 1: no one could ever even find. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: I National School Shooting Day, I saw that on my
Speaker 1: local news like that like was, as you said, like
Speaker 1: awareness quote unquote into existence. And I think you're absolutely
Speaker 1: right that I imagine that for some of the people
Speaker 1: who are sharing this, they're doing it out of genuine
Speaker 1: concern for wanting to keep people safe. But maybe it's
Speaker 1: difficult to see that in doing that, you're actually helping
Speaker 1: to create more of a panic that wouldn't be there otherwise.
Speaker 1: I do think that it's like people just out of
Speaker 1: our abundance of caution, trying to raise awareness but not
Speaker 1: realizing that if we all collectively do that, he it
Speaker 1: spreads panic and be it can be incredibly disruptive, right
Speaker 1: like if if everybody keeps their kids home from school
Speaker 1: because they're afraid of this national school shooting Day that
Speaker 1: they saw on television, that's concredibly disruptive for the school day.
Speaker 1: And you know, we should really give pause to the
Speaker 1: fact that platforms like TikTok can be this force where
Speaker 1: you can have these real world disruptions, um, just from
Speaker 1: something that starts as like a rumor or a fabrication. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think the disruptions are worth like accounting for, um
Speaker 1: when we create panic and also the way that they
Speaker 1: tend to perpetuate our misconceptions about oftentimes violence and mental health. Um,
Speaker 1: what you'll notice that a lot of the challenges is
Speaker 1: that they tend to on some level usually focus on
Speaker 1: an issue that we are as a society feeling a
Speaker 1: lot of anxiety about sexual assault, school shootings, suicide, and
Speaker 1: mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties
Speaker 1: that we as a society have and we need to
Speaker 1: be doing a lot of work to address those like major, large,
Speaker 1: enormous issues. And then this challenge comes along and whatn't
Speaker 1: easy and simple answer it provides of like, Oh, they're
Speaker 1: just doing this because they saw a TikTok about it.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's not a massive societal problem that's been
Speaker 1: around for years and has existed long before the emergency
Speaker 1: social media. No, this is because of kids these days
Speaker 1: on social media. Oh, it's so true. And I think,
Speaker 1: especially when we look at the fact that so many
Speaker 1: of these challenges are based around like look around localized,
Speaker 1: around youth or schools, I think we're in this moment
Speaker 1: where we're, as you said, having this like national existential
Speaker 1: crisis of what's happening in our schools where people are
Speaker 1: the you know, stoking a lot of panic around it.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that it's probably not a super fun time
Speaker 1: to be a public school educator right now. And I
Speaker 1: think it's no wonder what we're seeing. All of these
Speaker 1: challenges purport to will be localized around something happening at
Speaker 1: schools because it's an anxiety that we're not really talking
Speaker 1: honestly or thoughtfully about and other other you know kinds
Speaker 1: of discourse. And so this very simplistic thing of like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's the kids on those phones. He's always on that phone.
Speaker 1: That's what's happening. It's such a simple way to talk
Speaker 1: about something that is sometimes big and scary and complex
Speaker 1: to talk about. Yeah, it really offers a very similar
Speaker 1: thing to a conspiracy theory. Can you take a big
Speaker 1: problem something like, for instance, the assaulting of teachers while
Speaker 1: they're working, which should not be happening under any circumstances.
Speaker 1: They are teachers, they should not be assaulted, um, but
Speaker 1: they are, like they do face violence in their classrooms.
Speaker 1: And then we say, oh, well, it's part of this
Speaker 1: tap talk challenge and slap a teacher month challenge, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't actually help teachers to stay safe because we're
Speaker 1: not addressing any of the actual issues that have led
Speaker 1: to them having to work in an unsafe environment. We're
Speaker 1: just pointing a finger at a social media trend that
Speaker 1: we can't even find. Yeah, I mean, and that's such
Speaker 1: a good segue into how this conversation. So I learned
Speaker 1: about these fake challenges from from following you. Then I
Speaker 1: got this, Yeah, because I I guess I would they.
Speaker 1: I almost learned how to like self regulate around them.
Speaker 1: That like it's entirely possible that it's just a fabrication,
Speaker 1: and that in get in amplifying it, I am helping
Speaker 1: it grow. Like it kind of like inspired me to
Speaker 1: take a moment to think through the implications because yeah,
Speaker 1: that national rape date thing like it, I was moved
Speaker 1: by that, But your work really helped me put it
Speaker 1: in active. I guess I'll say, oh, thank you. That
Speaker 1: means a lot. That whole week like really is what
Speaker 1: ended up. I was already doing a lot of TikTok
Speaker 1: as information research, but I really ended up pushing me
Speaker 1: full time because uh me and my coworkers Idea were
Speaker 1: so stressed having to watch millions of people believe something
Speaker 1: that there was no reason for them to be panicking
Speaker 1: over And I mean there was also just so much
Speaker 1: uncritical news coverage of it, and that is a huge
Speaker 1: part of the problems, uncritical news coverage and uh, law
Speaker 1: enforcement and sometimes when they're involved school boards as well
Speaker 1: amplifying these without evidence. Oh, let's talk about that, because
Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned that I saw on my local
Speaker 1: news a segment about school shooting day. What do you
Speaker 1: think the role of local especially local news media is
Speaker 1: in spreading these kinds of dubious challenges, Like when they
Speaker 1: just sort of uncritically report on it, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: like they almost never include someone saying, actually, we have
Speaker 1: no evidence that this is actually a real thing. It's
Speaker 1: just this sort of uncritically like here's what people are
Speaker 1: upset about and we don't know. What role do you
Speaker 1: think that news media plays and helping these panics spread.
Speaker 1: I mean, they really helped to start lighting the fire,
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to like if the thing is
Speaker 1: just on TikTok right now, when it comes to getting
Speaker 1: adults involved in the conversation, then the parents involved and
Speaker 1: law enforcement involved and start getting it that information outside
Speaker 1: of just a single echo chamber and really spreading into
Speaker 1: other ecosystems. I think local news plays a huge role
Speaker 1: in that. And one of the tactics, as you kind
Speaker 1: of said, but one of the tactics they use, and
Speaker 1: we also see the click baked stories, is that they
Speaker 1: don't say, like there is a hoax happening on TikTok
Speaker 1: and we can't find evidence for it. They just say
Speaker 1: TikTok is full of claim saying that April is National
Speaker 1: Day without and that's the headline. So right, a lot
Speaker 1: of people aren't even going to read the story even
Speaker 1: if they did include a disclaimer that like they there's
Speaker 1: no evidence of this, but the whole story just relies
Speaker 1: on like well people on TikTok are saying this. It's
Speaker 1: like can you please fact check it? Critical conference please,
Speaker 1: and like that should be that should be the bare minimum, right,
Speaker 1: Like I think about that quote, I'm sure I'm gonna
Speaker 1: butcher it because I'm awful up quote. But what is
Speaker 1: It's not a reporter's job if if someone says it's raining,
Speaker 1: it's a reporter's job to look out the window and
Speaker 1: let the termine if that is true, not just a
Speaker 1: print that somebody said it's raining. And I guess I
Speaker 1: wish that that local media and not all media. But
Speaker 1: I guess I see local media really as a you know,
Speaker 1: culprit here. Um, I wish they would do a little
Speaker 1: bit better of a job, and I wish, you know,
Speaker 1: oftentimes these stories they rely on law enforcement, and it'll
Speaker 1: be it'll be like maybe somebody contacted law enforcement, and
Speaker 1: it will be like, we'll report it as law enforcement
Speaker 1: is aware of the situation, and and by including that
Speaker 1: it adds no further you know, fact check of what's
Speaker 1: going on. But I do think it adds a level
Speaker 1: of like, well of legitimacy, whiles like, oh, well, law
Speaker 1: enforcement is aware of the situation. It could be that
Speaker 1: law enforcement has no has not been able to verify
Speaker 1: any of these these claims as fact, But they don't
Speaker 1: really say that. They just I thought they just the
Speaker 1: way that they use law enforcement sometimes is incredibly damaging,
Speaker 1: I think to to the truth. Yeah, Oh, you'll see
Speaker 1: them insert a Facebook poster or a tweet from some
Speaker 1: some police department somewhere, and that gives legitimacy to the
Speaker 1: claim too, because the police department addressed it via social
Speaker 1: media and now they can hyperlink that in their stories. Um,
Speaker 1: and I see this also coming from I have a
Speaker 1: deep love for local journalism. I grew up with the
Speaker 1: mother who was the editor of our local town newspaper
Speaker 1: and was always hanging out in the office like I
Speaker 1: love look like, yes, give me more small town journalism. Um.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the problems since from when
Speaker 1: we aren't funding it and we don't give it the
Speaker 1: credit it deserves, so that they are encouraged to write
Speaker 1: cheap stories like this and they don't have the time
Speaker 1: to actually give it the due diligence that it deserves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I do
Speaker 1: think it's an issue of like under like underserving local media.
Speaker 1: And we we do have like a critical crisis in
Speaker 1: this country of just the decimation of of of local
Speaker 1: especially journalism and media. And that's so important, Like that's
Speaker 1: how you find out what's going on in your kids school,
Speaker 1: That's how you find out like what's happening in your neighborhood,
Speaker 1: like on your block. And so the way that we've
Speaker 1: just underserved it and undersupported it is horrible. But I
Speaker 1: also think a real is really indicated by what we're
Speaker 1: talking about today, that know, you put your put up
Speaker 1: a quick, cheap story that doesn't really get the facts,
Speaker 1: but does get people panicked and upset like I get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in in this capitalist economy, I totally get Let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break at our back. Who's to blame for
Speaker 1: the panic around TikTok challenges? Well, unsurprisingly partially Facebook. Last month,
Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported that Facebook and TikTok were in
Speaker 1: what they called a bare knuckle fight for younger users.
Speaker 1: Facebook hired Targeted Victory, one of the country's largest republican
Speaker 1: consulting firms, to orchestrate a nationwide campaign to turn the
Speaker 1: public against TikTok. The Post published a series of damning
Speaker 1: emails about how Targeted Victory, working on behalf of Facebook,
Speaker 1: tried to stoke controversy around TikTok by placing op eds
Speaker 1: critical of TikTok and newspapers in major news markets and
Speaker 1: stoking anger around so called dangerous TikTok challenges and trends. Writing.
Speaker 1: Targeted Victory urged partners to push stories to local media
Speaker 1: time TikTok to dangerous teen trends in an effort to
Speaker 1: show the apps purported harms any local examples of bad
Speaker 1: TikTok trends or stories in your markets. A Targeted Victory
Speaker 1: staff are asked dream would be to get stories with
Speaker 1: headlines like from dances to danger. How TikTok has become
Speaker 1: the most harmful social media space for kids. The staffer wrote.
Speaker 1: They even circulated a Google dot called bad TikTok Clips
Speaker 1: was linked to pretty dubious local news stories that cite
Speaker 1: TikTok as the origin of dangerous teen trends, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that some of those trends actually originated on Facebook. Now,
Speaker 1: I hate this tactic because essentially it's Facebook intentionally trying
Speaker 1: to stoke fear and panic for their own corporate interests
Speaker 1: in a way that takes attention away from actual social
Speaker 1: media issues that really do need scrutiny. So I have
Speaker 1: to ask, I mean, I in the reporting from the
Speaker 1: Washington Post, I was, I guess a little surprised to
Speaker 1: see that so many of these TikTok stories, these negative
Speaker 1: sort of so called challenges and things, were actually being
Speaker 1: planted by Facebook slash metas pr firm Targeted Victory, where
Speaker 1: they were getting folks to write up eds and important
Speaker 1: congressional districts about the dangers of TikTok on youth. Um,
Speaker 1: how they would get local media to to run these
Speaker 1: stories of these dangerous so called challenges when in fact,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of evidence that some of these
Speaker 1: challenges actually if if they started anywhere, that like the
Speaker 1: rumor might maybe started on Facebook to begin with. Yet
Speaker 1: Facebook is really invested in making TikTok look bad. You know,
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's like my least
Speaker 1: favorite story in all of tech journalism to cover is
Speaker 1: like to two big companies going at it. But it
Speaker 1: does seem to be there as some level of that here. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I can understand why Facebook, I'm so sorry,
Speaker 1: meta meta uh, feels threatened by TikTok. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: the most downloaded app for the last three years running.
Speaker 1: There's they're clearly offering something that people enjoy and are
Speaker 1: arguably addicted to. I feel like I might be a
Speaker 1: bit addicted to it, uh, And you know, young people
Speaker 1: are gravitating towards it, So I understand why they would
Speaker 1: take that approach in trying to smear it in the
Speaker 1: public's eye as some sort of dangerous threat. Um. I
Speaker 1: just I don't think that they're entirely wrong. I think
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of issues with all different social
Speaker 1: media platforms. It's just the dangerous that TikTok isn't challenges
Speaker 1: that nobody is doing. Yeah, I mean, in some ways,
Speaker 1: do you think that in how it inflated some of
Speaker 1: these nonsense dangers that they say are on the platform
Speaker 1: of TikTok, we're actually overlooking some of the legitimate dangers
Speaker 1: that could be on platforms, all social media platforms, but
Speaker 1: TikTok especially, Like you know, there are so many things
Speaker 1: that happened on TikTok or Michael that's probably not great,
Speaker 1: like young people over young people trying to diagnose themselves
Speaker 1: with mental issues, and then you know companies that sell
Speaker 1: like private companies that sell medication for those issues advertising
Speaker 1: to them on the platform. There are kinds of legitmity.
Speaker 1: TikTok is its own can of worms. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: I think, like there are legitimate things to be concerned about,
Speaker 1: and I think when we allow for the conversation to
Speaker 1: be dominated by things that are just nonsense, we're not
Speaker 1: talking about the things that are legitimate concerns. Like I've
Speaker 1: done research into how engaging exclusively with transphobic content on
Speaker 1: TikTok pushes a user into this far a rabbit hole
Speaker 1: where they're also exposed to first of all, more transphobia,
Speaker 1: but also homophobia and misogyny and racism and white supremacy
Speaker 1: and anti semitism and conspiracy areas and cost of violence
Speaker 1: like all of those things can also be found on
Speaker 1: TikTok um. And I think that the ideas that TikTok
Speaker 1: is able to place in your brain are probably more
Speaker 1: dangerous than challenges that it is supposedly encouraging you to do.
Speaker 1: That's at least how I interpreted. Is like the way
Speaker 1: that it impacts our society at large and what we
Speaker 1: believe and how we approach our beliefs, that has way
Speaker 1: more significance then whether or not kids are holding their
Speaker 1: breath for as long as possible. Yeah, it's I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely addicted to TikTok. Dude. I don't have to
Speaker 1: say this, but like, I'm on it way too much.
Speaker 1: I don't make TikTok myself, but I can scroll for
Speaker 1: hours and hours. And it is true that like I
Speaker 1: I'm I'm an adult, so like my brain is fully
Speaker 1: formed and when I see things, or Michael, that doesn't
Speaker 1: sound right, or like this seems to be pushing a
Speaker 1: dangerous narrative or a narrative that we should at least
Speaker 1: be concerned about. I'm able to just scroll up and
Speaker 1: and know that. But I wonder what such a young
Speaker 1: user base, if young people were seeing that same thing
Speaker 1: that I'm seeing that I'm you know, old enough to
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, well this is obviously not true. We're like,
Speaker 1: this is dangerous, that's not some kind of that's not
Speaker 1: a narrative I want to engage with further. I wonder, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what it's like, what dangerous things are young people being
Speaker 1: exposed to and steeped in and thus being walked down
Speaker 1: on a line of engagement to sort of get further
Speaker 1: into you know, those are all legitimate questions about what's
Speaker 1: happening on TikTok. Yeah, absolutely, I mean way to think about,
Speaker 1: like how popular conspiracy theories are on TikTok, and how
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories if we stop looking at them as individuals,
Speaker 1: when we look at them as a way to think
Speaker 1: about the world, and how if you engage with one
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory video, you're more likely to then be like,
Speaker 1: given more conspiracy theory videos. And it's not just teaching
Speaker 1: you that conspiracy theory, it's teaching you how to think
Speaker 1: about the world in that way. And that's not helpful
Speaker 1: for building you know, a society full of engaged political
Speaker 1: citizens who want to make the world better, because you know,
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories fundamentally just push you to be less politically active.
Speaker 1: Uh and and you know, not really want to solve problems,
Speaker 1: just blame in an out group for them. So I
Speaker 1: worry about like that when it comes to how it
Speaker 1: teaches younger people to think, Yeah, that's a really really
Speaker 1: good point. And I would say, sort of on the
Speaker 1: flip side of that one thing, I had one narrative
Speaker 1: I've seen on TikTok a lot that's really being driven
Speaker 1: by young people that I chef kiss love this idea
Speaker 1: of pushing back on climate doomism that I like, the
Speaker 1: young people on TikTok pulled me out of the I'm
Speaker 1: not even gonna say a conspiracy Like I formally believed
Speaker 1: that it was too late to act on climate and
Speaker 1: I now have come to see, thanks to young people
Speaker 1: on TikTok, that I was actually guilty of almost kind
Speaker 1: of like a different kind of climate disinformation, right, because
Speaker 1: like the same way that it's climate disinformation to say
Speaker 1: that climate change is a hoax, it's also not necessarily
Speaker 1: true that it's too late we can't do anything. And
Speaker 1: I think that like the way that folks have used
Speaker 1: that platform to push back against that idea has completely
Speaker 1: brought me back from the break in a way that
Speaker 1: I didn't know I was already I was at. I
Speaker 1: am so happy to hear you say that, because that
Speaker 1: has been a huge thing that we've been pushing for
Speaker 1: an eco talk and getting creators to push that sort
Speaker 1: of messaging, because you're right, it is. You know, there's
Speaker 1: there's uh several different types of climate change disinformation. There
Speaker 1: is denialism. There's also distraction and delay technics, but there's
Speaker 1: also doomism. And and when you start thinking about climate
Speaker 1: change with the framework that it's too late to do anything,
Speaker 1: then you start going, well why bother? And fossil field
Speaker 1: companies are gonna absolutely love that that works. That plays
Speaker 1: right into their hands because if if it doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: then like why not just keep doing all the fossil
Speaker 1: fuel burning Anyways. Yeah, it's such a good point that
Speaker 1: like if it does remind me a lot of what
Speaker 1: you said about conspiracy theories. Giving into them makes it
Speaker 1: okay to not act, It makes it okay, it makes
Speaker 1: you less engaged, not more engaged. And and that particular
Speaker 1: mistruth around climate climate doomisum gave me the license to
Speaker 1: not act for a while. And I'm so glad that
Speaker 1: you and folks at Eco talk are really doing a
Speaker 1: lot of work to change the conversation because if if you,
Speaker 1: if you give into the reality that like it's not
Speaker 1: too late, there is still time we could be doing
Speaker 1: so much. That's that is what gets you in a
Speaker 1: headspace to be motivated to act and to lean in
Speaker 1: and to check in, not disengage. Absolutely, And I see
Speaker 1: that sort of uh, that narrative being applied to other
Speaker 1: realms as well, like you know, not giving up in
Speaker 1: the fight for reproductive rights and not giving up in
Speaker 1: the fight for racial equality. UM. I think that we
Speaker 1: see a lot of that pushback on TikTok. It is
Speaker 1: a good space for that. And this is again like
Speaker 1: we're back in this position of like, oh god, there's
Speaker 1: so many goods happening on that app and there's so
Speaker 1: many bats, and I guess it's just kind of a
Speaker 1: microcosm of the world in general. More after a quick break.
Speaker 1: So if you've ever wondered I wonder what Bridget is
Speaker 1: up to when she's not making the podcast that I
Speaker 1: have great news for you. We just launched a brand
Speaker 1: new news let where I'm gonna be writing about things
Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make
Speaker 1: it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I
Speaker 1: promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: our newsletter at tanodi dot com slash newsletter and it's
Speaker 1: gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you can
Speaker 1: also support the show by checking out our mark store
Speaker 1: at tanodi dot com slash store. Let's get right back
Speaker 1: into it. When people give into things like moral panics,
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, and conspiratorial thinking, it actually encourages us to
Speaker 1: check out. It provides a seductive reason to just stop
Speaker 1: caring because you don't really feel like anything that you
Speaker 1: could possibly do would actually make a difference if you've
Speaker 1: already lost. You mentioned reproductive rights. I it's so interesting
Speaker 1: the days of that leaked draft of the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: opinion came down almost immediately you know, all of the disinformation,
Speaker 1: the reproductive rights disinformation books I know, circled the wagons,
Speaker 1: and the number one narrative that we saw almost immediately was, uh,
Speaker 1: abortion is illegal starting this means abortion is illegal starting now,
Speaker 1: starting today, And that's not true. You know, that was
Speaker 1: just a draft decision. Who knows what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: But it's so interesting that the piece of disinformation misinformation
Speaker 1: that circulated instantaneously was that abortion is now illegal in
Speaker 1: the United States. And how if you were someone who
Speaker 1: had an appointment to get an abortion the next day,
Speaker 1: you might be motivated to stay home. We might be
Speaker 1: motivated to say, like, Okay, well, I guess that means
Speaker 1: I no longer had this appointment, or I guess that
Speaker 1: means that I am out of options. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: that people who want to criminalize abortion in this country
Speaker 1: would love it if that's how you felt, because you're
Speaker 1: you're it's it's it's going to you know, keep you
Speaker 1: from exercising your constitutionally protected rights to an abortion. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean getting people to give up and not fight
Speaker 1: back does make their job whatever they're trying to push for.
Speaker 1: It does make it a lot easier m that's so true.
Speaker 1: You know. One of my last questions for you. One
Speaker 1: of the things I in the Washington Post reporting about
Speaker 1: TikTok and Meta, Uh, it seems like young people done
Speaker 1: with Facebook. You know, I can't say that I blame
Speaker 1: anybody for it is being done with, done with you know,
Speaker 1: the platform. Why do you think that is? Why do
Speaker 1: you think you know they're just flocking from from Facebook
Speaker 1: onto other platforms like TikTok. Oh. God, I think there's
Speaker 1: so many factors and I would need a lot of
Speaker 1: data to back up any hard claims that I made.
Speaker 1: I still see some some young people using Instagram, um,
Speaker 1: but not so much like really nobody is using Facebook um.
Speaker 1: And I think it probably speaks to like the ways
Speaker 1: that we use social media, either as entertainment or as
Speaker 1: communication um. And how that's shifting. Like Facebook was originally
Speaker 1: built for keeping up with your friends and then kind
Speaker 1: of at it in pages and sharing, and it's it's
Speaker 1: more about that network with this larger group that you've created,
Speaker 1: where something like TikTok is more personalized feed that gives
Speaker 1: you what you're interested in and then you can share
Speaker 1: that with your friends if you want. But I think
Speaker 1: it's just it's just more personalized, um, and it just
Speaker 1: needs a different need. Yeah, I think that's I think
Speaker 1: you think you're onto something. I know for me Facebook
Speaker 1: and to a lesser extent Instagram, but a little bit
Speaker 1: as well. It just feels very scammy now. It just
Speaker 1: feels like it's full of ads for products that maybe
Speaker 1: are not super legit. I got totally suckered by a
Speaker 1: Facebook ad to by this purse, and I kept seeing
Speaker 1: these ads over and over and over again. I'm actually
Speaker 1: gonna grab it for you so you can see me. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I love this. Okay, So I thought, ads, we're following
Speaker 1: me all around for this purse. I eventually bought it.
Speaker 1: Took a month to come. Look how tiny this person is.
Speaker 1: It's that cell phone. The handle is so outrageously big exactly.
Speaker 1: And all I can think was, is Facebook just a
Speaker 1: platform for scams? Now marketplace scams and stuff? I just
Speaker 1: felt I will never buy another thing that I see
Speaker 1: on Facebook ads ever again. And it just made me
Speaker 1: feel that platform was just a place for scammy marketing.
Speaker 1: And I guess i I strictly there's some of that
Speaker 1: on TikTok as well in other platforms, but I guess
Speaker 1: i'd just be like Facebook, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: it wants to be. I don't know what role that's
Speaker 1: trying to play anymore in my life. Well, it was
Speaker 1: an Instagram is really trying to become literally a shop,
Speaker 1: Like they really are just trying to sell you things
Speaker 1: and the whole Instagram. This is just my theory. But
Speaker 1: with the switch from Instagram to TikTok in popularity, I
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting and it says something about like
Speaker 1: our drive or desire for authenticity in our relationships with
Speaker 1: like influencer is because the Instagram influencers are very aesthetically
Speaker 1: nice to look at, Like that's all well and good,
Speaker 1: but TikTok is like having a FaceTime conversation with somebody,
Speaker 1: even if you're they're never gonna hear what you have
Speaker 1: to say back, Like millions people might be looking at
Speaker 1: their face, but it feels so intimate and really it
Speaker 1: does let your personality to shine through. Um that's how
Speaker 1: to say pretty privilege is not a huge part of
Speaker 1: who goes viral, but personality also matters. Yeah, I've noticed this,
Speaker 1: and it's also one of those reasons why I think
Speaker 1: that people who had were like nailing it in terms
Speaker 1: of being influencers on Instagram by being so aesthetically pleasing.
Speaker 1: That doesn't really translates all the time. Like you still
Speaker 1: like on TikTok, you need to be charming or funny
Speaker 1: or engaging or authentic, like people have to want to
Speaker 1: connect with you. Just being hot doesn't really cut it. Again,
Speaker 1: there are people who like their TikTok's will be you know,
Speaker 1: do numbers just because they're good looking. So it certainly
Speaker 1: happens on the platform, but I do it gets a
Speaker 1: platform where you have to sort of bring a different
Speaker 1: side of yourself, and I think it's really challenged a
Speaker 1: lot of people who have made their their platform on
Speaker 1: something else that's something aesthetically pleasing. Yeah, it's just a
Speaker 1: different type of marketing. It's you're not marketing what's a
Speaker 1: pretty picture now, and you're more marketing your personality and
Speaker 1: how you can sell something using your personality, which you
Speaker 1: know might have more room for exploitation. So that's fun.
Speaker 1: I know, either way we cut it, we're being exploited,
Speaker 1: whether it's like, oh but because we look a certain way,
Speaker 1: or because our genuine personality is being exploited to push
Speaker 1: whatever the hell like, it's exploitation. It's exploitation no matter
Speaker 1: how you slice it. I'm sure it's just like it's
Speaker 1: my our my looks better for selling clothes or is
Speaker 1: my personality like better for selling bang energy? Also, wait,
Speaker 1: this is just a quick it to the challenges again
Speaker 1: because there's a statistic that I need to give you
Speaker 1: because I brought it here and I just have to
Speaker 1: share it because it's just too interesting. Um So, do
Speaker 1: you know the blackout challenge? I do like this challenge
Speaker 1: that's supposedly kids are seeing a TikTok that is encouraging
Speaker 1: them to hold their breath until they can pass out.
Speaker 1: So and a lot of the news coverage about it
Speaker 1: will point to the death of there's two instances of
Speaker 1: young children dying because of this sort of like holding
Speaker 1: your breath challenge. But what is also interesting is that
Speaker 1: a C is like a CDC study identified ad two
Speaker 1: probable choking game deaths among kids age six to nineteen
Speaker 1: from thousand and seven, which is long before TikTok ever
Speaker 1: was a part of the picture. There are more happening
Speaker 1: as this game that's part of our culture beyond just
Speaker 1: what's being told to us on social media. And I
Speaker 1: think that's so interesting and I'm obsessed with that statistic now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's such a clarified statistic. I'm in my thirties
Speaker 1: and we certainly had I think we called it the
Speaker 1: choking game, right, like that was a yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: you called it. That was before TikTok or social media
Speaker 1: was ever a thing. This idea that it's a new
Speaker 1: danger that is being presented to children on their phones,
Speaker 1: it's just not true. Yeah, Like literally two children died
Speaker 1: bet two thousand and seven from this game. It's it's horrific,
Speaker 1: Like it's a completely unnecessary death and not a healthy
Speaker 1: thing for us to do to our brains, even if
Speaker 1: we don't die. Um, but it's not new, And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of these panics often center around something
Speaker 1: that like is a much larger problem and not new.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're not new. And it really just collapses
Speaker 1: these big, complex issues into such simplistic terms. It's fascinating.
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe I was lucky enough to even find
Speaker 1: that statistic. I didn't know that it existed. Ah, But
Speaker 1: I do feel like it sheds light on how we
Speaker 1: frame our social media challenges as somehow new when they've
Speaker 1: been around in our culture for for decades. Absolutely, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that you that's that. It's fascinating. It's yeah,
Speaker 1: very very sad, very fascinating. Um. The challenge I've been
Speaker 1: dealing with all days, the Labello challenge, which you probably
Speaker 1: haven't seen yet. This is so it's it's in. It's
Speaker 1: all in French. Um, it's a TikTok chat TikTok challenge.
Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes that you use like labello chapstick
Speaker 1: every time you feel sad, and then when you run
Speaker 1: out to the end of the two you you take
Speaker 1: your own life. And it's going like the Ministry of
Speaker 1: the Interior tweeted about it last week, like they tweeted
Speaker 1: and which gave so much credibility to this challenge that
Speaker 1: completely misunderstands why somebody would take their own life, like
Speaker 1: they are not killing themselves because social media said to
Speaker 1: do it at the end of their chapstick to like
Speaker 1: they're doing it because they're in pain and don't feel
Speaker 1: like they have somebody to go to. And it's so infuriating.
Speaker 1: And I've been this is what I've been doing with
Speaker 1: like all day trying to debunk it and understand like
Speaker 1: where it came from. It's just like you wonder why
Speaker 1: your kids won't go to you about your feelings, but
Speaker 1: then your understanding of mental health seems to be so
Speaker 1: limited that you think that they would kill themselves because
Speaker 1: of the TikTok trend. And it's like, I kind of
Speaker 1: get why they feel like they can't talk to you.
Speaker 1: And like, if you were a young person who was
Speaker 1: struggling with suicidal ideation, and this is what the adults
Speaker 1: in your in your life or in your atmosphere, we're
Speaker 1: telling you that they believe about what you might be feeling.
Speaker 1: I can imagine that being incredibly isolating. And you know,
Speaker 1: and again it's kind of goes back to what you
Speaker 1: were saying that it's probably so much easier to think,
Speaker 1: you know, youth youth suicide is being fueled by this
Speaker 1: social media trend and then have it end there as
Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, youth suicide and youth mental health
Speaker 1: issues are being fueled by a complex network of issues
Speaker 1: that are systemic and personal that we need to talk
Speaker 1: about and solve. Why get why you know, grapple with
Speaker 1: that which is complex and big and scary and complicated
Speaker 1: and you know, feels unsolvable. Are you can just be like,
Speaker 1: it's the phones, it's the technology. It's yeah, it provides
Speaker 1: a very simple answer. Uh. And I mean also the
Speaker 1: way that social media, and this is for all platforms,
Speaker 1: like I think we saw this a lot with Tumbler,
Speaker 1: We're seeing it a lot with TikTok, and they become
Speaker 1: spaces where people can talk about their struggles with mental
Speaker 1: health and things like you know, suicidal ideation, things like
Speaker 1: eating disorders. And it's this weird gray area because it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily against like the guidelines of the platform um
Speaker 1: and it's potentially a space where they can find support
Speaker 1: and find community. But it also might be glorifying those
Speaker 1: types of behaviors. Um, it might be making them more prevalent.
Speaker 1: It's just one of those things that we don't know
Speaker 1: yet and we still need a lot more research into.
Speaker 1: But it's certainly not like black and white, good and
Speaker 1: bad like that people on social media do have spaces
Speaker 1: where they are talking about these things. And then imagine
Speaker 1: that the adults get wind of some meme you made
Speaker 1: about how you're feeling horrible, and their response is to
Speaker 1: just like take away your phone and take away the
Speaker 1: place where you do have community. Uh that makes me nervous. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it goes It really goes back to what
Speaker 1: you were saying about how these platforms, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: it can be such a great place to build community
Speaker 1: and have these conversations around discovery and all of that
Speaker 1: and feel less alone, but that they also can present
Speaker 1: this like very dangerous landscape as well. It's like you
Speaker 1: really it's it's I don't know what we do with that.
Speaker 1: It feels very unsatisfied, but I guess that's what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't have a very satisfying answer for that, because
Speaker 1: sometimes the community is simultaneously like providing support and being toxic,
Speaker 1: and what do you do? I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm like more research. I guess. Well, remember
Speaker 1: I feel like more research is like always like a
Speaker 1: good place to start maybe always definitely a good starting
Speaker 1: ground if you don't know the answer at all, You're like,
Speaker 1: can we at least commission some research on it? Oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that folks like you are doing that research,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm obviously so grateful for you I'm
Speaker 1: so excited that you're working on your thesis. Thank you.
Speaker 1: When I've done, I'm gonna make you. Maybe I'll come
Speaker 1: back on and be like, can I just read my
Speaker 1: whole thesis? Do you want to all open invitation? I
Speaker 1: definitely do, so let's let's let's keep me keep me
Speaker 1: posted on the on when that's done, definitely will do.
Speaker 1: Where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you're
Speaker 1: up to. Yeah, I'm on TikTok at topology, I'm on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Abby s r and Instagram at Abby s
Speaker 1: r um and uh, I guess wait for my thesis
Speaker 1: to drop, but we're talking about it like it's a mixtape.
Speaker 1: It is. I'm gonna put the whole thing on SoundCloud. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the hot the hottest pieces of the summer airhorns. Check
Speaker 1: out my SoundCloud. It's me reading all a hundred pages
Speaker 1: in monotone to you. And now it is time for
Speaker 1: another installment of our newsletter column Dear Internet, where I
Speaker 1: take your Internet questions, conundrums, etiquette concerns and answer them
Speaker 1: to the best of my ability. So if you want
Speaker 1: to get more of these, subscribe to our free newsletter
Speaker 1: at tangobi dot com slash newsletter where you can submit
Speaker 1: your questions and you might even hear them on the air.
Speaker 1: Here's today's question, Dear Internet, my sister is used with
Speaker 1: filters and apps like face tune when she posts pictures
Speaker 1: on social media. I barely recognize her, to the point
Speaker 1: where it's a running joke with our friends and family.
Speaker 1: We joke with her about it, but you know, to
Speaker 1: each their own. Except when she posts pictures of us together,
Speaker 1: she face tunes and filters everybody in the photo, including me. Recently,
Speaker 1: she posted a family picture on Instagram and she added
Speaker 1: agregious filters to everybody, including my preteen daughters. Now it's
Speaker 1: one thing if my sister doesn't mind stickers behind her
Speaker 1: back regarding her use of filters, but do we all
Speaker 1: have to be included every time she posts a picture?
Speaker 1: So I wanted to share this letter because she is
Speaker 1: not alone. According to research by Dove, the girls that
Speaker 1: they surveyed how to use an app like face tune
Speaker 1: to change the way they look in photos by the
Speaker 1: age thirteen, and in some cases, young people are even
Speaker 1: getting cosmetic surgery to look more like they're digitally face
Speaker 1: tuned and filtered. Cell that keep in mind don't actually exist.
Speaker 1: And I also think this is an interesting question because
Speaker 1: I don't really think there's a hard and fast answer
Speaker 1: around it. To be clear, I'm not really comfortable with
Speaker 1: the idea of any adult filtering and face tuning a child,
Speaker 1: because we should let kids be kids, we should let
Speaker 1: them understand that their looks are not everything. But when
Speaker 1: we're talking about adults, I think it gets a little
Speaker 1: bit murkier. Not to be clear, I have not always
Speaker 1: been above using a little bit of a filter or
Speaker 1: face tune every now and then. You know, if you've
Speaker 1: got a big ZiT and a picture and you want
Speaker 1: to just zap it out, I've done that. And I
Speaker 1: also think I was really using Instagram a lot during
Speaker 1: this era of the Instagram influencer, when there was this
Speaker 1: real pressure I think for all of us to look
Speaker 1: perfect and air brushed on Instagram, because that was what
Speaker 1: the app was telling us got engagement. And so if
Speaker 1: you wanted to get a lot of engagement on the app,
Speaker 1: the best way to do that was to post a
Speaker 1: really polished, filtered photo of yourself. And I'm not going
Speaker 1: to sit here and act like I have not done
Speaker 1: that myself, but as I've gotten older and really like
Speaker 1: these kinds of apps have played less and less of
Speaker 1: a role in my life. I really don't care that
Speaker 1: much anymore. I'm not going to sit around and face
Speaker 1: tune and filter a bunch of photos. And also, I
Speaker 1: just think it's important to show up as yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: this is what a thirties something your old woman looks like.
Speaker 1: You know, why lie about that? But I also think
Speaker 1: we need to leave room for the fact that not
Speaker 1: everyone feels that way. I don't be garage anyone using
Speaker 1: any of the apps at our disposal to look and
Speaker 1: feel their best. I think it's a really personal thing.
Speaker 1: And so that said, the idea that it's a personal thing,
Speaker 1: I think it really warrants a frank conversation with your sister.
Speaker 1: You know, she might very well see face tuning and
Speaker 1: filtering your photo when she posts them as being polite.
Speaker 1: You know, if I'm gonna touch up my photo, it's
Speaker 1: it's rude to not touch up my sister's photo as well.
Speaker 1: Maybe she feels bad about the idea of posting a
Speaker 1: photo where in her mind she has perfected herself and
Speaker 1: she's keeping you natural. So I think that it's important
Speaker 1: to not assume malintent around why she's filtering your pictures
Speaker 1: so much. But I also think it's a personal thing.
Speaker 1: You know, you should be able to have a little
Speaker 1: bit of say around how you show up digitally, even
Speaker 1: on her feed, and so I think if you're close,
Speaker 1: it warnts a real conversation about her motivations and just
Speaker 1: being really clear about where your comfort level lies. And listeners,
Speaker 1: I really want to hear what you think about this.
Speaker 1: Do you use filters and face tune on your photos?
Speaker 1: How would you feel of a friend or family member?
Speaker 1: Added one for you. Subscribe to the newsletter and let
Speaker 1: me know. At tangodi dot com slash Newsletter, We've got
Speaker 1: brand new merch and then there are no girls on
Speaker 1: the Internet store. So one of the most consistent themes
Speaker 1: on this show is that technology is not neutral. It
Speaker 1: actually reflects the same systemic privileges and disadvantages that we
Speaker 1: see elsewhere in society. So we've got a brand new
Speaker 1: design that says just that technology is not neutral. Check
Speaker 1: it out on our website at tangodi dot com slash
Speaker 1: store and take advantage of a thirty store wide sale
Speaker 1: on all merch for the next three days. And y'all
Speaker 1: know I love a discount. Go to pang godi dot
Speaker 1: com slash store to support the show and treat yourself
Speaker 1: to some new merch Trust me, you deserve it. Got
Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just
Speaker 1: want to say hi? You can re us at Hello
Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for
Speaker 1: today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls
Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's
Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland
Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.