1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. This episode briefly mentions both 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: suicide and sexual assault. Well, you'll notice that a lot 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: of the challenges is that they tend to on some level, 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: usually focus on an issue that we are as a society. 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: Feeling a lot of anxiety about textual school shootings, suicide 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: and mental health assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: anxieties that we as a society have. There Are No 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. As a production of I Heart 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Tod and this is 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet, nationals lab of 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: Teacher Day, National School Shooting Day, the blackout Challenge. You've 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: probably heard of these challenges that supposedly originate on TikTok, 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: encouraging young people to harm themselves, others or spread panic 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: about harm being done to them. But what's behind these 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: challenges and what happens when concern around social media platforms 16 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: like TikTok turns into a moral panic around technology. To 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: find out more, I turned a friend of the show 18 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: Abby Richards. Well, Abby, it is so nice to have 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: you back. You are a friend of the show. We 20 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: love being able to talk to you for folks who 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: may not be familiar with you. Tell us who you are. Yeah, 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: my name is Abby Richards, and I'm an independent miss 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: and disinformation researcher who focuses on TikTok. You are someone 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: I know that I can always count on for like 25 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: a sobering, kind of like clearheaded breakdown of what's happening 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: on TikTok, which I think is so important because the 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: platform can be so it can just be information overload 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: coming at you all the time, you know, So it's 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: like nice to have someone who can actually wade through 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: it and break it down. I am relieved to hear 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: that you feel like I am clear headed. So necessarily 32 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: I look at TikTok and it's just so vast and 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: huge that even as someone who studies it professionally, sometimes 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't have a full understanding. I'll never 35 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: have a full understanding of this chaotic mess of an 36 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: app that we have to deal with and all of 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: its beauties and downfalls and little niche cultures. Um, but 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: I try my best. So I think you do a 39 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: great job. But actually that's like a great place to start, 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: which is that you really like TikTok is your platform. 41 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: It's the platform that you study professionally in terms of 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: disinformation research, and it's also where you make a lot 43 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: of your content educating folks about disinformation and conspiracy theories. 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: But you're also someone who is pretty honest about some 45 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: of the dangers and downfalls inherent in the app. What 46 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: is that like to sort of have this this platform 47 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: that is in some ways so rich and allows you 48 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: to to tell stories and reach people and educate folks 49 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: in such interesting ways, but on the other hand, does 50 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: have its laws should should be looked out with a 51 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: little bit of scrutiny like any other platform. It's a 52 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: love hate relationship. I I I mean, I'm the first 53 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: admit that I benefit from TikTok. I mean I have 54 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: a platform there. I've found that it's been an incredibly 55 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: useful tool in educating people and creating resources where people 56 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: can go, uh to learn about these very complex issues 57 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: like there there is room for a nuance on TikTok 58 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: and there is room for learning on TikTok. Uh. That 59 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: is not to say that it has no hitfalls whatsoever. 60 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: There are so many strengths of TikTok offers as far 61 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: as communication in education in community building. And then there's 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: also so many weaknesses when it comes to how the 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: algorithm chooses for you what you see, and the types 64 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: of content that go viral the most easily, and the 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: types of rhetoric that encourages so I see both sides 66 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: of the coin. The ubiquity of social media platforms like 67 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: TikTok have given rise to panics around so called challenges 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: and trends, trends that stoke fear in young people and 69 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: their parents. Now, this kind of thing is nothing new. 70 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, we grew up freaked out 71 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: about things like razor blades and Halloween candy, or gang 72 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: members flashing their headlights to mark you for an attack. 73 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: But with the rise of social media, these kinds of 74 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,559 Speaker 1: trends can spread much more quickly than they ever could 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: just being whispered about in the cafeteria. In April of 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: last year, I saw video circulate on TikTok responding to 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: videos calling a day in April national Rape Day. Basically, 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: everyone was upset and panicked about alleged videos declaring that 79 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: on this day rape was legal. Only a TikTok spokesperson 80 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: said that no such video ever really existed, there were 81 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: only users making videos responding with decrying National Rape Day 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: or sharing warnings and tips on how to stay safe, 83 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: and in responding, they were only legitimizing this hoax, from 84 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: kids being kept home from school to wasting law enforcements 85 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: time and resources panic around These challenges that start online 86 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: can create real world disruptions. I know the very first 87 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: time I ever encountered a sort of dubious quote unquote 88 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: challenge or or like thing on TikTok, I think it 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: was National Rape Day, where it was like, yeah, that 90 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: was the first time, and you know, I work for 91 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: a gender justice organization, So when I saw that, my 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: first instinct was, this is horrible. We need to reach 93 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: out to TikTok. We need to make sure that, you know, 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: they take this down. They need to know about this. 95 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: But then, you know, looking at it, it was a 96 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: situation where I almost kind of got a little bit 97 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: duped by something that maybe wasn't a legitimate, organically grown 98 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: quote unquote challenge or day or you know, you know, 99 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: content stream on the platform. But I like, in talking 100 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: about it was sort of helping to legitimize it, helping 101 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: to make it something that maybe felt like a legitimate thing, 102 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: even though it wasn't Yeah, National Right Day for those 103 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: who don't know, it was allegedly April, and the idea 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: going around was that there was some group of essentially 105 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: evil men out in a group chat somewhere planning to 106 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: all go out and rape on that I believe it 107 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: was a Saturday, uh April. And aside from the fact 108 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: that that is really just not at all how sexual 109 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: assault works and is not how it's perpetrated against victims, um, 110 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: it was also something that we really just awareness videoed 111 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: into existence. There was no evidence of this initial threat 112 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: at all, but because everybody went, oh, well it might 113 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: be a threat, it might be a problem, might be 114 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: a problem, then they I'll start turning around and sharing 115 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: it everywhere just as a warning. And then we end 116 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: up in a position where millions and millions of people 117 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: felt afraid for their lives that day, like people didn't 118 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: leave the house, and we saw the same thing just 119 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: like happen all over again just a few months ago 120 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: with the National School Shooting Day, where tons of kids 121 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: were then absent from school because of a threat that 122 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: no one could ever even find. Yeah, I mean I 123 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: I National School Shooting Day, I saw that on my 124 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: local news like that like was, as you said, like 125 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: awareness quote unquote into existence. And I think you're absolutely 126 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: right that I imagine that for some of the people 127 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: who are sharing this, they're doing it out of genuine 128 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: concern for wanting to keep people safe. But maybe it's 129 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: difficult to see that in doing that, you're actually helping 130 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: to create more of a panic that wouldn't be there otherwise. 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: I do think that it's like people just out of 132 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: our abundance of caution, trying to raise awareness but not 133 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: realizing that if we all collectively do that, he it 134 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: spreads panic and be it can be incredibly disruptive, right 135 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: like if if everybody keeps their kids home from school 136 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: because they're afraid of this national school shooting Day that 137 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: they saw on television, that's concredibly disruptive for the school day. 138 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: And you know, we should really give pause to the 139 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: fact that platforms like TikTok can be this force where 140 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: you can have these real world disruptions, um, just from 141 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: something that starts as like a rumor or a fabrication. Yeah, absolutely, 142 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I think the disruptions are worth like accounting for, um 143 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: when we create panic and also the way that they 144 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: tend to perpetuate our misconceptions about oftentimes violence and mental health. Um, 145 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: what you'll notice that a lot of the challenges is 146 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: that they tend to on some level usually focus on 147 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: an issue that we are as a society feeling a 148 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: lot of anxiety about sexual assault, school shootings, suicide, and 149 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties 150 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: that we as a society have and we need to 151 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: be doing a lot of work to address those like major, large, 152 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: enormous issues. And then this challenge comes along and whatn't 153 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: easy and simple answer it provides of like, Oh, they're 154 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: just doing this because they saw a TikTok about it. 155 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: It's it's it's not a massive societal problem that's been 156 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: around for years and has existed long before the emergency 157 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: social media. No, this is because of kids these days 158 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: on social media. Oh, it's so true. And I think, 159 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: especially when we look at the fact that so many 160 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: of these challenges are based around like look around localized, 161 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: around youth or schools, I think we're in this moment 162 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:56,359 Speaker 1: where we're, as you said, having this like national existential 163 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: crisis of what's happening in our schools where people are 164 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: the you know, stoking a lot of panic around it. 165 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure that it's probably not a super fun time 166 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: to be a public school educator right now. And I 167 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: think it's no wonder what we're seeing. All of these 168 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: challenges purport to will be localized around something happening at 169 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: schools because it's an anxiety that we're not really talking 170 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: honestly or thoughtfully about and other other you know kinds 171 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: of discourse. And so this very simplistic thing of like, oh, 172 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: it's the kids on those phones. He's always on that phone. 173 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: That's what's happening. It's such a simple way to talk 174 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: about something that is sometimes big and scary and complex 175 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: to talk about. Yeah, it really offers a very similar 176 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: thing to a conspiracy theory. Can you take a big 177 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: problem something like, for instance, the assaulting of teachers while 178 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: they're working, which should not be happening under any circumstances. 179 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: They are teachers, they should not be assaulted, um, but 180 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: they are, like they do face violence in their classrooms. 181 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: And then we say, oh, well, it's part of this 182 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: tap talk challenge and slap a teacher month challenge, and 183 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't actually help teachers to stay safe because we're 184 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: not addressing any of the actual issues that have led 185 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: to them having to work in an unsafe environment. We're 186 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: just pointing a finger at a social media trend that 187 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: we can't even find. Yeah, I mean, and that's such 188 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: a good segue into how this conversation. So I learned 189 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: about these fake challenges from from following you. Then I 190 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: got this, Yeah, because I I guess I would they. 191 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: I almost learned how to like self regulate around them. 192 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: That like it's entirely possible that it's just a fabrication, 193 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: and that in get in amplifying it, I am helping 194 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: it grow. Like it kind of like inspired me to 195 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: take a moment to think through the implications because yeah, 196 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: that national rape date thing like it, I was moved 197 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: by that, But your work really helped me put it 198 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: in active. I guess I'll say, oh, thank you. That 199 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: means a lot. That whole week like really is what 200 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: ended up. I was already doing a lot of TikTok 201 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: as information research, but I really ended up pushing me 202 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: full time because uh me and my coworkers Idea were 203 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: so stressed having to watch millions of people believe something 204 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,479 Speaker 1: that there was no reason for them to be panicking 205 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: over And I mean there was also just so much 206 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: uncritical news coverage of it, and that is a huge 207 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: part of the problems, uncritical news coverage and uh, law 208 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: enforcement and sometimes when they're involved school boards as well 209 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: amplifying these without evidence. Oh, let's talk about that, because 210 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned that I saw on my local 211 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: news a segment about school shooting day. What do you 212 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: think the role of local especially local news media is 213 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: in spreading these kinds of dubious challenges, Like when they 214 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: just sort of uncritically report on it, you know, maybe 215 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: like they almost never include someone saying, actually, we have 216 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: no evidence that this is actually a real thing. It's 217 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: just this sort of uncritically like here's what people are 218 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: upset about and we don't know. What role do you 219 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: think that news media plays and helping these panics spread. 220 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they really helped to start lighting the fire, 221 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to like if the thing is 222 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: just on TikTok right now, when it comes to getting 223 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: adults involved in the conversation, then the parents involved and 224 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: law enforcement involved and start getting it that information outside 225 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: of just a single echo chamber and really spreading into 226 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: other ecosystems. I think local news plays a huge role 227 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: in that. And one of the tactics, as you kind 228 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: of said, but one of the tactics they use, and 229 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: we also see the click baked stories, is that they 230 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: don't say, like there is a hoax happening on TikTok 231 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: and we can't find evidence for it. They just say 232 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: TikTok is full of claim saying that April is National 233 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: Day without and that's the headline. So right, a lot 234 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: of people aren't even going to read the story even 235 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: if they did include a disclaimer that like they there's 236 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: no evidence of this, but the whole story just relies 237 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: on like well people on TikTok are saying this. It's 238 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: like can you please fact check it? Critical conference please, 239 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: and like that should be that should be the bare minimum, right, 240 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: Like I think about that quote, I'm sure I'm gonna 241 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: butcher it because I'm awful up quote. But what is 242 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: It's not a reporter's job if if someone says it's raining, 243 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: it's a reporter's job to look out the window and 244 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: let the termine if that is true, not just a 245 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: print that somebody said it's raining. And I guess I 246 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: wish that that local media and not all media. But 247 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: I guess I see local media really as a you know, 248 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: culprit here. Um, I wish they would do a little 249 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: bit better of a job, and I wish, you know, 250 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: oftentimes these stories they rely on law enforcement, and it'll 251 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: be it'll be like maybe somebody contacted law enforcement, and 252 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: it will be like, we'll report it as law enforcement 253 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: is aware of the situation, and and by including that 254 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: it adds no further you know, fact check of what's 255 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: going on. But I do think it adds a level 256 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: of like, well of legitimacy, whiles like, oh, well, law 257 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: enforcement is aware of the situation. It could be that 258 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: law enforcement has no has not been able to verify 259 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: any of these these claims as fact, But they don't 260 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: really say that. They just I thought they just the 261 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: way that they use law enforcement sometimes is incredibly damaging, 262 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: I think to to the truth. Yeah, Oh, you'll see 263 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: them insert a Facebook poster or a tweet from some 264 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: some police department somewhere, and that gives legitimacy to the 265 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: claim too, because the police department addressed it via social 266 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: media and now they can hyperlink that in their stories. Um, 267 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: and I see this also coming from I have a 268 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: deep love for local journalism. I grew up with the 269 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: mother who was the editor of our local town newspaper 270 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: and was always hanging out in the office like I 271 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: love look like, yes, give me more small town journalism. Um. 272 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the problems since from when 273 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: we aren't funding it and we don't give it the 274 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: credit it deserves, so that they are encouraged to write 275 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: cheap stories like this and they don't have the time 276 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: to actually give it the due diligence that it deserves. Yeah, 277 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I do 278 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: think it's an issue of like under like underserving local media. 279 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: And we we do have like a critical crisis in 280 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: this country of just the decimation of of of local 281 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: especially journalism and media. And that's so important, Like that's 282 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: how you find out what's going on in your kids school, 283 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: That's how you find out like what's happening in your neighborhood, 284 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: like on your block. And so the way that we've 285 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: just underserved it and undersupported it is horrible. But I 286 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: also think a real is really indicated by what we're 287 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: talking about today, that know, you put your put up 288 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: a quick, cheap story that doesn't really get the facts, 289 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: but does get people panicked and upset like I get it. Yeah, 290 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: in in this capitalist economy, I totally get Let's take 291 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: a quick break at our back. Who's to blame for 292 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: the panic around TikTok challenges? Well, unsurprisingly partially Facebook. Last month, 293 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported that Facebook and TikTok were in 294 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: what they called a bare knuckle fight for younger users. 295 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: Facebook hired Targeted Victory, one of the country's largest republican 296 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: consulting firms, to orchestrate a nationwide campaign to turn the 297 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: public against TikTok. The Post published a series of damning 298 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: emails about how Targeted Victory, working on behalf of Facebook, 299 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: tried to stoke controversy around TikTok by placing op eds 300 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: critical of TikTok and newspapers in major news markets and 301 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: stoking anger around so called dangerous TikTok challenges and trends. Writing. 302 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: Targeted Victory urged partners to push stories to local media 303 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: time TikTok to dangerous teen trends in an effort to 304 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: show the apps purported harms any local examples of bad 305 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: TikTok trends or stories in your markets. A Targeted Victory 306 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: staff are asked dream would be to get stories with 307 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: headlines like from dances to danger. How TikTok has become 308 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: the most harmful social media space for kids. The staffer wrote. 309 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: They even circulated a Google dot called bad TikTok Clips 310 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: was linked to pretty dubious local news stories that cite 311 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: TikTok as the origin of dangerous teen trends, despite the 312 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: fact that some of those trends actually originated on Facebook. Now, 313 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: I hate this tactic because essentially it's Facebook intentionally trying 314 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: to stoke fear and panic for their own corporate interests 315 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: in a way that takes attention away from actual social 316 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: media issues that really do need scrutiny. So I have 317 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: to ask, I mean, I in the reporting from the 318 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: Washington Post, I was, I guess a little surprised to 319 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: see that so many of these TikTok stories, these negative 320 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: sort of so called challenges and things, were actually being 321 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: planted by Facebook slash metas pr firm Targeted Victory, where 322 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: they were getting folks to write up eds and important 323 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: congressional districts about the dangers of TikTok on youth. Um, 324 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: how they would get local media to to run these 325 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: stories of these dangerous so called challenges when in fact, 326 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: there was a lot of evidence that some of these 327 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: challenges actually if if they started anywhere, that like the 328 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: rumor might maybe started on Facebook to begin with. Yet 329 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: Facebook is really invested in making TikTok look bad. You know, 330 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it's like my least 331 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: favorite story in all of tech journalism to cover is 332 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: like to two big companies going at it. But it 333 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: does seem to be there as some level of that here. Yeah, yeah, 334 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and I can understand why Facebook, I'm so sorry, 335 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: meta meta uh, feels threatened by TikTok. I mean, they're 336 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: the most downloaded app for the last three years running. 337 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: There's they're clearly offering something that people enjoy and are 338 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: arguably addicted to. I feel like I might be a 339 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: bit addicted to it, uh, And you know, young people 340 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: are gravitating towards it, So I understand why they would 341 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: take that approach in trying to smear it in the 342 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: public's eye as some sort of dangerous threat. Um. I 343 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: just I don't think that they're entirely wrong. I think 344 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of issues with all different social 345 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: media platforms. It's just the dangerous that TikTok isn't challenges 346 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: that nobody is doing. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, 347 00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: do you think that in how it inflated some of 348 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: these nonsense dangers that they say are on the platform 349 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: of TikTok, we're actually overlooking some of the legitimate dangers 350 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: that could be on platforms, all social media platforms, but 351 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: TikTok especially, Like you know, there are so many things 352 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: that happened on TikTok or Michael that's probably not great, 353 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: like young people over young people trying to diagnose themselves 354 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: with mental issues, and then you know companies that sell 355 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: like private companies that sell medication for those issues advertising 356 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: to them on the platform. There are kinds of legitmity. 357 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: TikTok is its own can of worms. Yeah, And so 358 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: I think, like there are legitimate things to be concerned about, 359 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: and I think when we allow for the conversation to 360 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: be dominated by things that are just nonsense, we're not 361 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: talking about the things that are legitimate concerns. Like I've 362 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:59,239 Speaker 1: done research into how engaging exclusively with transphobic content on 363 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: TikTok pushes a user into this far a rabbit hole 364 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: where they're also exposed to first of all, more transphobia, 365 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: but also homophobia and misogyny and racism and white supremacy 366 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: and anti semitism and conspiracy areas and cost of violence 367 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: like all of those things can also be found on 368 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: TikTok um. And I think that the ideas that TikTok 369 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: is able to place in your brain are probably more 370 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: dangerous than challenges that it is supposedly encouraging you to do. 371 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: That's at least how I interpreted. Is like the way 372 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 1: that it impacts our society at large and what we 373 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: believe and how we approach our beliefs, that has way 374 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: more significance then whether or not kids are holding their 375 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: breath for as long as possible. Yeah, it's I mean, 376 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: I'm definitely addicted to TikTok. Dude. I don't have to 377 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: say this, but like, I'm on it way too much. 378 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: I don't make TikTok myself, but I can scroll for 379 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: hours and hours. And it is true that like I 380 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm I'm an adult, so like my brain is fully 381 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: formed and when I see things, or Michael, that doesn't 382 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: sound right, or like this seems to be pushing a 383 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: dangerous narrative or a narrative that we should at least 384 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: be concerned about. I'm able to just scroll up and 385 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: and know that. But I wonder what such a young 386 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: user base, if young people were seeing that same thing 387 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: that I'm seeing that I'm you know, old enough to 388 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, well this is obviously not true. We're like, 389 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: this is dangerous, that's not some kind of that's not 390 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: a narrative I want to engage with further. I wonder, like, yeah, 391 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: what it's like, what dangerous things are young people being 392 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: exposed to and steeped in and thus being walked down 393 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: on a line of engagement to sort of get further 394 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: into you know, those are all legitimate questions about what's 395 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: happening on TikTok. Yeah, absolutely, I mean way to think about, 396 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: like how popular conspiracy theories are on TikTok, and how 397 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories if we stop looking at them as individuals, 398 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: when we look at them as a way to think 399 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: about the world, and how if you engage with one 400 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory video, you're more likely to then be like, 401 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: given more conspiracy theory videos. And it's not just teaching 402 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: you that conspiracy theory, it's teaching you how to think 403 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: about the world in that way. And that's not helpful 404 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: for building you know, a society full of engaged political 405 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: citizens who want to make the world better, because you know, 406 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories fundamentally just push you to be less politically active. 407 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: Uh and and you know, not really want to solve problems, 408 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: just blame in an out group for them. So I 409 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: worry about like that when it comes to how it 410 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: teaches younger people to think, Yeah, that's a really really 411 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: good point. And I would say, sort of on the 412 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: flip side of that one thing, I had one narrative 413 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: I've seen on TikTok a lot that's really being driven 414 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: by young people that I chef kiss love this idea 415 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: of pushing back on climate doomism that I like, the 416 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: young people on TikTok pulled me out of the I'm 417 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: not even gonna say a conspiracy Like I formally believed 418 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: that it was too late to act on climate and 419 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: I now have come to see, thanks to young people 420 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: on TikTok, that I was actually guilty of almost kind 421 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: of like a different kind of climate disinformation, right, because 422 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: like the same way that it's climate disinformation to say 423 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: that climate change is a hoax, it's also not necessarily 424 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: true that it's too late we can't do anything. And 425 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: I think that like the way that folks have used 426 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: that platform to push back against that idea has completely 427 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: brought me back from the break in a way that 428 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: I didn't know I was already I was at. I 429 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: am so happy to hear you say that, because that 430 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: has been a huge thing that we've been pushing for 431 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: an eco talk and getting creators to push that sort 432 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: of messaging, because you're right, it is. You know, there's 433 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,880 Speaker 1: there's uh several different types of climate change disinformation. There 434 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: is denialism. There's also distraction and delay technics, but there's 435 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: also doomism. And and when you start thinking about climate 436 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: change with the framework that it's too late to do anything, 437 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: then you start going, well why bother? And fossil field 438 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: companies are gonna absolutely love that that works. That plays 439 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: right into their hands because if if it doesn't matter, 440 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: then like why not just keep doing all the fossil 441 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: fuel burning Anyways. Yeah, it's such a good point that 442 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 1: like if it does remind me a lot of what 443 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: you said about conspiracy theories. Giving into them makes it 444 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: okay to not act, It makes it okay, it makes 445 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: you less engaged, not more engaged. And and that particular 446 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: mistruth around climate climate doomisum gave me the license to 447 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: not act for a while. And I'm so glad that 448 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: you and folks at Eco talk are really doing a 449 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of work to change the conversation because if if you, 450 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: if you give into the reality that like it's not 451 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: too late, there is still time we could be doing 452 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: so much. That's that is what gets you in a 453 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: headspace to be motivated to act and to lean in 454 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: and to check in, not disengage. Absolutely, And I see 455 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: that sort of uh, that narrative being applied to other 456 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: realms as well, like you know, not giving up in 457 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: the fight for reproductive rights and not giving up in 458 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: the fight for racial equality. UM. I think that we 459 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: see a lot of that pushback on TikTok. It is 460 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: a good space for that. And this is again like 461 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: we're back in this position of like, oh god, there's 462 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: so many goods happening on that app and there's so 463 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: many bats, and I guess it's just kind of a 464 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: microcosm of the world in general. More after a quick break. 465 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: So if you've ever wondered I wonder what Bridget is 466 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: up to when she's not making the podcast that I 467 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: have great news for you. We just launched a brand 468 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: new news let where I'm gonna be writing about things 469 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make 470 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I 471 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe to 472 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: our newsletter at tanodi dot com slash newsletter and it's 473 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you can 474 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: also support the show by checking out our mark store 475 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: at tanodi dot com slash store. Let's get right back 476 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: into it. When people give into things like moral panics, 477 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, and conspiratorial thinking, it actually encourages us to 478 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: check out. It provides a seductive reason to just stop 479 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: caring because you don't really feel like anything that you 480 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: could possibly do would actually make a difference if you've 481 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: already lost. You mentioned reproductive rights. I it's so interesting 482 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: the days of that leaked draft of the Supreme Court 483 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: opinion came down almost immediately you know, all of the disinformation, 484 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: the reproductive rights disinformation books I know, circled the wagons, 485 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: and the number one narrative that we saw almost immediately was, uh, 486 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: abortion is illegal starting this means abortion is illegal starting now, 487 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: starting today, And that's not true. You know, that was 488 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: just a draft decision. Who knows what's going to happen. 489 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: But it's so interesting that the piece of disinformation misinformation 490 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: that circulated instantaneously was that abortion is now illegal in 491 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: the United States. And how if you were someone who 492 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: had an appointment to get an abortion the next day, 493 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: you might be motivated to stay home. We might be 494 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: motivated to say, like, Okay, well, I guess that means 495 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: I no longer had this appointment, or I guess that 496 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: means that I am out of options. And I'm sure 497 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: that people who want to criminalize abortion in this country 498 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: would love it if that's how you felt, because you're 499 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: you're it's it's it's going to you know, keep you 500 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: from exercising your constitutionally protected rights to an abortion. Yeah. Absolutely, 501 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: I mean getting people to give up and not fight 502 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: back does make their job whatever they're trying to push for. 503 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: It does make it a lot easier m that's so true. 504 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: You know. One of my last questions for you. One 505 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: of the things I in the Washington Post reporting about 506 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: TikTok and Meta, Uh, it seems like young people done 507 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: with Facebook. You know, I can't say that I blame 508 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: anybody for it is being done with, done with you know, 509 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: the platform. Why do you think that is? Why do 510 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: you think you know they're just flocking from from Facebook 511 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: onto other platforms like TikTok. Oh. God, I think there's 512 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: so many factors and I would need a lot of 513 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: data to back up any hard claims that I made. 514 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: I still see some some young people using Instagram, um, 515 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: but not so much like really nobody is using Facebook um. 516 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: And I think it probably speaks to like the ways 517 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: that we use social media, either as entertainment or as 518 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: communication um. And how that's shifting. Like Facebook was originally 519 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: built for keeping up with your friends and then kind 520 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: of at it in pages and sharing, and it's it's 521 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: more about that network with this larger group that you've created, 522 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: where something like TikTok is more personalized feed that gives 523 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: you what you're interested in and then you can share 524 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: that with your friends if you want. But I think 525 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: it's just it's just more personalized, um, and it just 526 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: needs a different need. Yeah, I think that's I think 527 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: you think you're onto something. I know for me Facebook 528 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: and to a lesser extent Instagram, but a little bit 529 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: as well. It just feels very scammy now. It just 530 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: feels like it's full of ads for products that maybe 531 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: are not super legit. I got totally suckered by a 532 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: Facebook ad to by this purse, and I kept seeing 533 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: these ads over and over and over again. I'm actually 534 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: gonna grab it for you so you can see me. Okay, okay, 535 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: I love this. Okay, So I thought, ads, we're following 536 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: me all around for this purse. I eventually bought it. 537 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: Took a month to come. Look how tiny this person is. 538 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: It's that cell phone. The handle is so outrageously big exactly. 539 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: And all I can think was, is Facebook just a 540 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: platform for scams? Now marketplace scams and stuff? I just 541 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: felt I will never buy another thing that I see 542 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: on Facebook ads ever again. And it just made me 543 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 1: feel that platform was just a place for scammy marketing. 544 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: And I guess i I strictly there's some of that 545 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: on TikTok as well in other platforms, but I guess 546 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: i'd just be like Facebook, and I don't know what 547 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: it wants to be. I don't know what role that's 548 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: trying to play anymore in my life. Well, it was 549 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: an Instagram is really trying to become literally a shop, 550 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: Like they really are just trying to sell you things 551 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: and the whole Instagram. This is just my theory. But 552 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: with the switch from Instagram to TikTok in popularity, I 553 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: think it's really interesting and it says something about like 554 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: our drive or desire for authenticity in our relationships with 555 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: like influencer is because the Instagram influencers are very aesthetically 556 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: nice to look at, Like that's all well and good, 557 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: but TikTok is like having a FaceTime conversation with somebody, 558 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: even if you're they're never gonna hear what you have 559 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: to say back, Like millions people might be looking at 560 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: their face, but it feels so intimate and really it 561 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: does let your personality to shine through. Um that's how 562 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: to say pretty privilege is not a huge part of 563 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: who goes viral, but personality also matters. Yeah, I've noticed this, 564 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: and it's also one of those reasons why I think 565 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: that people who had were like nailing it in terms 566 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: of being influencers on Instagram by being so aesthetically pleasing. 567 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: That doesn't really translates all the time. Like you still 568 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: like on TikTok, you need to be charming or funny 569 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: or engaging or authentic, like people have to want to 570 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: connect with you. Just being hot doesn't really cut it. Again, 571 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: there are people who like their TikTok's will be you know, 572 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: do numbers just because they're good looking. So it certainly 573 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: happens on the platform, but I do it gets a 574 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: platform where you have to sort of bring a different 575 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: side of yourself, and I think it's really challenged a 576 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: lot of people who have made their their platform on 577 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: something else that's something aesthetically pleasing. Yeah, it's just a 578 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: different type of marketing. It's you're not marketing what's a 579 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 1: pretty picture now, and you're more marketing your personality and 580 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: how you can sell something using your personality, which you 581 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: know might have more room for exploitation. So that's fun. 582 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: I know, either way we cut it, we're being exploited, 583 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: whether it's like, oh but because we look a certain way, 584 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: or because our genuine personality is being exploited to push 585 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: whatever the hell like, it's exploitation. It's exploitation no matter 586 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: how you slice it. I'm sure it's just like it's 587 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: my our my looks better for selling clothes or is 588 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: my personality like better for selling bang energy? Also, wait, 589 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: this is just a quick it to the challenges again 590 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: because there's a statistic that I need to give you 591 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: because I brought it here and I just have to 592 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: share it because it's just too interesting. Um So, do 593 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: you know the blackout challenge? I do like this challenge 594 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: that's supposedly kids are seeing a TikTok that is encouraging 595 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: them to hold their breath until they can pass out. 596 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 1: So and a lot of the news coverage about it 597 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 1: will point to the death of there's two instances of 598 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: young children dying because of this sort of like holding 599 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: your breath challenge. But what is also interesting is that 600 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: a C is like a CDC study identified ad two 601 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: probable choking game deaths among kids age six to nineteen 602 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: from thousand and seven, which is long before TikTok ever 603 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: was a part of the picture. There are more happening 604 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: as this game that's part of our culture beyond just 605 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: what's being told to us on social media. And I 606 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: think that's so interesting and I'm obsessed with that statistic now, Yeah, 607 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: it's it's such a clarified statistic. I'm in my thirties 608 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: and we certainly had I think we called it the 609 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: choking game, right, like that was a yeah, that's what 610 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: you called it. That was before TikTok or social media 611 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 1: was ever a thing. This idea that it's a new 612 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: danger that is being presented to children on their phones, 613 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: it's just not true. Yeah, Like literally two children died 614 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: bet two thousand and seven from this game. It's it's horrific, 615 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 1: Like it's a completely unnecessary death and not a healthy 616 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: thing for us to do to our brains, even if 617 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: we don't die. Um, but it's not new, And I 618 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: think a lot of these panics often center around something 619 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: that like is a much larger problem and not new. 620 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're not new. And it really just collapses 621 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: these big, complex issues into such simplistic terms. It's fascinating. 622 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe I was lucky enough to even find 623 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: that statistic. I didn't know that it existed. Ah, But 624 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: I do feel like it sheds light on how we 625 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: frame our social media challenges as somehow new when they've 626 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: been around in our culture for for decades. Absolutely, I'm 627 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: so glad that you that's that. It's fascinating. It's yeah, 628 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: very very sad, very fascinating. Um. The challenge I've been 629 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: dealing with all days, the Labello challenge, which you probably 630 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: haven't seen yet. This is so it's it's in. It's 631 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: all in French. Um, it's a TikTok chat TikTok challenge. 632 00:37:53,480 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes that you use like labello chapstick 633 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: every time you feel sad, and then when you run 634 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: out to the end of the two you you take 635 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: your own life. And it's going like the Ministry of 636 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: the Interior tweeted about it last week, like they tweeted 637 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: and which gave so much credibility to this challenge that 638 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 1: completely misunderstands why somebody would take their own life, like 639 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: they are not killing themselves because social media said to 640 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: do it at the end of their chapstick to like 641 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: they're doing it because they're in pain and don't feel 642 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: like they have somebody to go to. And it's so infuriating. 643 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: And I've been this is what I've been doing with 644 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: like all day trying to debunk it and understand like 645 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: where it came from. It's just like you wonder why 646 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: your kids won't go to you about your feelings, but 647 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: then your understanding of mental health seems to be so 648 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 1: limited that you think that they would kill themselves because 649 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: of the TikTok trend. And it's like, I kind of 650 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: get why they feel like they can't talk to you. 651 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: And like, if you were a young person who was 652 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: struggling with suicidal ideation, and this is what the adults 653 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,479 Speaker 1: in your in your life or in your atmosphere, we're 654 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: telling you that they believe about what you might be feeling. 655 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: I can imagine that being incredibly isolating. And you know, 656 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: and again it's kind of goes back to what you 657 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: were saying that it's probably so much easier to think, 658 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, youth youth suicide is being fueled by this 659 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: social media trend and then have it end there as 660 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,879 Speaker 1: opposed to, you know, youth suicide and youth mental health 661 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: issues are being fueled by a complex network of issues 662 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: that are systemic and personal that we need to talk 663 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: about and solve. Why get why you know, grapple with 664 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: that which is complex and big and scary and complicated 665 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: and you know, feels unsolvable. Are you can just be like, 666 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: it's the phones, it's the technology. It's yeah, it provides 667 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: a very simple answer. Uh. And I mean also the 668 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: way that social media, and this is for all platforms, 669 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: like I think we saw this a lot with Tumbler, 670 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: We're seeing it a lot with TikTok, and they become 671 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: spaces where people can talk about their struggles with mental 672 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: health and things like you know, suicidal ideation, things like 673 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: eating disorders. And it's this weird gray area because it's 674 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily against like the guidelines of the platform um 675 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 1: and it's potentially a space where they can find support 676 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: and find community. But it also might be glorifying those 677 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: types of behaviors. Um, it might be making them more prevalent. 678 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: It's just one of those things that we don't know 679 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: yet and we still need a lot more research into. 680 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: But it's certainly not like black and white, good and 681 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: bad like that people on social media do have spaces 682 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: where they are talking about these things. And then imagine 683 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: that the adults get wind of some meme you made 684 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: about how you're feeling horrible, and their response is to 685 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,359 Speaker 1: just like take away your phone and take away the 686 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: place where you do have community. Uh that makes me nervous. Yeah, 687 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean it goes It really goes back to what 688 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,359 Speaker 1: you were saying about how these platforms, on the one hand, 689 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: it can be such a great place to build community 690 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: and have these conversations around discovery and all of that 691 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: and feel less alone, but that they also can present 692 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,319 Speaker 1: this like very dangerous landscape as well. It's like you 693 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: really it's it's I don't know what we do with that. 694 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: It feels very unsatisfied, but I guess that's what it is. Yeah, 695 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: I don't have a very satisfying answer for that, because 696 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: sometimes the community is simultaneously like providing support and being toxic, 697 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 1: and what do you do? I don't, I don't know. 698 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: That's why I'm like more research. I guess. Well, remember 699 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: I feel like more research is like always like a 700 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: good place to start maybe always definitely a good starting 701 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: ground if you don't know the answer at all, You're like, 702 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: can we at least commission some research on it? Oh, well, 703 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,320 Speaker 1: I'm glad that folks like you are doing that research, 704 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm obviously so grateful for you I'm 705 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 1: so excited that you're working on your thesis. Thank you. 706 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: When I've done, I'm gonna make you. Maybe I'll come 707 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: back on and be like, can I just read my 708 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: whole thesis? Do you want to all open invitation? I 709 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 1: definitely do, so let's let's let's keep me keep me 710 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: posted on the on when that's done, definitely will do. 711 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 1: Where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you're 712 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: up to. Yeah, I'm on TikTok at topology, I'm on 713 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: Twitter at Abby s r and Instagram at Abby s 714 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: r um and uh, I guess wait for my thesis 715 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: to drop, but we're talking about it like it's a mixtape. 716 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,439 Speaker 1: It is. I'm gonna put the whole thing on SoundCloud. Yeah, 717 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: the hot the hottest pieces of the summer airhorns. Check 718 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: out my SoundCloud. It's me reading all a hundred pages 719 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: in monotone to you. And now it is time for 720 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: another installment of our newsletter column Dear Internet, where I 721 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: take your Internet questions, conundrums, etiquette concerns and answer them 722 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: to the best of my ability. So if you want 723 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: to get more of these, subscribe to our free newsletter 724 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: at tangobi dot com slash newsletter where you can submit 725 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: your questions and you might even hear them on the air. 726 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: Here's today's question, Dear Internet, my sister is used with 727 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: filters and apps like face tune when she posts pictures 728 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,359 Speaker 1: on social media. I barely recognize her, to the point 729 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: where it's a running joke with our friends and family. 730 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: We joke with her about it, but you know, to 731 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: each their own. Except when she posts pictures of us together, 732 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: she face tunes and filters everybody in the photo, including me. Recently, 733 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: she posted a family picture on Instagram and she added 734 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: agregious filters to everybody, including my preteen daughters. Now it's 735 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: one thing if my sister doesn't mind stickers behind her 736 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: back regarding her use of filters, but do we all 737 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: have to be included every time she posts a picture? 738 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,359 Speaker 1: So I wanted to share this letter because she is 739 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,560 Speaker 1: not alone. According to research by Dove, the girls that 740 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: they surveyed how to use an app like face tune 741 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: to change the way they look in photos by the 742 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: age thirteen, and in some cases, young people are even 743 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: getting cosmetic surgery to look more like they're digitally face 744 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 1: tuned and filtered. Cell that keep in mind don't actually exist. 745 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: And I also think this is an interesting question because 746 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: I don't really think there's a hard and fast answer 747 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: around it. To be clear, I'm not really comfortable with 748 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: the idea of any adult filtering and face tuning a child, 749 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: because we should let kids be kids, we should let 750 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: them understand that their looks are not everything. But when 751 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about adults, I think it gets a little 752 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: bit murkier. Not to be clear, I have not always 753 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: been above using a little bit of a filter or 754 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 1: face tune every now and then. You know, if you've 755 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: got a big ZiT and a picture and you want 756 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: to just zap it out, I've done that. And I 757 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: also think I was really using Instagram a lot during 758 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: this era of the Instagram influencer, when there was this 759 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: real pressure I think for all of us to look 760 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: perfect and air brushed on Instagram, because that was what 761 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,359 Speaker 1: the app was telling us got engagement. And so if 762 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: you wanted to get a lot of engagement on the app, 763 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: the best way to do that was to post a 764 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: really polished, filtered photo of yourself. And I'm not going 765 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: to sit here and act like I have not done 766 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: that myself, but as I've gotten older and really like 767 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: these kinds of apps have played less and less of 768 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: a role in my life. I really don't care that 769 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 1: much anymore. I'm not going to sit around and face 770 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: tune and filter a bunch of photos. And also, I 771 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: just think it's important to show up as yourself. You know, 772 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: this is what a thirties something your old woman looks like. 773 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: You know, why lie about that? But I also think 774 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: we need to leave room for the fact that not 775 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,479 Speaker 1: everyone feels that way. I don't be garage anyone using 776 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: any of the apps at our disposal to look and 777 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,839 Speaker 1: feel their best. I think it's a really personal thing. 778 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: And so that said, the idea that it's a personal thing, 779 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,320 Speaker 1: I think it really warrants a frank conversation with your sister. 780 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: You know, she might very well see face tuning and 781 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,920 Speaker 1: filtering your photo when she posts them as being polite. 782 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: You know, if I'm gonna touch up my photo, it's 783 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: it's rude to not touch up my sister's photo as well. 784 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: Maybe she feels bad about the idea of posting a 785 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: photo where in her mind she has perfected herself and 786 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: she's keeping you natural. So I think that it's important 787 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: to not assume malintent around why she's filtering your pictures 788 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: so much. But I also think it's a personal thing. 789 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 1: You know, you should be able to have a little 790 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: bit of say around how you show up digitally, even 791 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: on her feed, and so I think if you're close, 792 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: it warnts a real conversation about her motivations and just 793 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: being really clear about where your comfort level lies. And listeners, 794 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: I really want to hear what you think about this. 795 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: Do you use filters and face tune on your photos? 796 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: How would you feel of a friend or family member? 797 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: Added one for you. Subscribe to the newsletter and let 798 00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: me know. At tangodi dot com slash Newsletter, We've got 799 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: brand new merch and then there are no girls on 800 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: the Internet store. So one of the most consistent themes 801 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: on this show is that technology is not neutral. It 802 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,239 Speaker 1: actually reflects the same systemic privileges and disadvantages that we 803 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,359 Speaker 1: see elsewhere in society. So we've got a brand new 804 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,319 Speaker 1: design that says just that technology is not neutral. Check 805 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: it out on our website at tangodi dot com slash 806 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,800 Speaker 1: store and take advantage of a thirty store wide sale 807 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: on all merch for the next three days. And y'all 808 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: know I love a discount. Go to pang godi dot 809 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: com slash store to support the show and treat yourself 810 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:13,359 Speaker 1: to some new merch Trust me, you deserve it. Got 811 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,360 Speaker 1: a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just 812 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,399 Speaker 1: want to say hi? You can re us at Hello 813 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for 814 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls 815 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's 816 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,320 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland 817 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and 818 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 819 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 820 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,839 Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from 821 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 822 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:44,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.