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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network brought to

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Speaker 1: you by on x Hunt and onyx Maps. Now I

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Speaker 1: gotta have a little heart to heart with you here

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Speaker 1: real quick. I used on x maps on my phone

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Speaker 1: every single day during the hunting season, whether I was

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Speaker 1: out west during my elk hunt South Dakota mule deer hunt,

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Speaker 1: or my rut vacation in Iowa, I was on my

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Speaker 1: phone using on x maps every part of the day.

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Speaker 1: Whether I was looking at terrain features on the topographic

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Speaker 1: and satellite maps that they offer on their on their app,

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Speaker 1: or if I was leaving away point like a watering

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Speaker 1: hole or where I left my trail cameras or tree stands,

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Speaker 1: or if I was marking a route from a campsite

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Speaker 1: to a glassing position or from my truck to a

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Speaker 1: tree stand location. I used on x maps every single day,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like it's an app that made my

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Speaker 1: life a little bit easier. I don't know about you,

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Speaker 1: but there's been times in the past where I have

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Speaker 1: been trying to find a tree stand based off of

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Speaker 1: memory and not off of looking at a map, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I I have gotten lost in the dark before I

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Speaker 1: had to wait till sun up and then and then

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Speaker 1: you know, find it that way. But that problem does

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Speaker 1: not exist anymore because of on x And there's a

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Speaker 1: ton of other features that I think you guys need

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Speaker 1: to check out. Go to on x maps dot com

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Speaker 1: and check out all the functionality of the app, download

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Speaker 1: it to your phone, give it a try, and when

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Speaker 1: you do decide to purchase, enter the discount code Nation

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Speaker 1: twenty and A T I O N to zero and

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Speaker 1: for new users you're going to receive off so onyx

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Speaker 1: maps dot com. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the

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Speaker 1: host of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be

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Speaker 1: your host into the world of hunting the icon of

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Speaker 1: the North American Wilderness Prepare. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation.

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Speaker 1: We will also bring you into some of the wildest

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Speaker 1: country on the planet chasing fair. I have always been

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Speaker 1: fascinated by snakes. Snakes are one of those critters that

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Speaker 1: give the wildness to wild places. On this podcast, we

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Speaker 1: sit down with Dr Chris Jenkins. Chris is a venomous

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Speaker 1: snake expert and we have an absolutely fascinating conversation. He

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Speaker 1: answered a ton of questions that I've had my whole

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Speaker 1: life about venomous snakes. This to me is one of

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Speaker 1: the most uh information rich podcasts that we've done that

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Speaker 1: really every outdoorsman and woodsman ought to listen to. To me,

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Speaker 1: we ought to as as woodsman. We ought to be

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Speaker 1: understanding more than just the animal that we're after, but

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Speaker 1: we ought to be understanding the ecosystem, the environment, and

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Speaker 1: that in most places include snakes. So this is a

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Speaker 1: super cool podcast with Dr Chris Jenkins. We are continuing

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Speaker 1: on with our giveaway of what we've been doing, which

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Speaker 1: is if you leave a review of our podcast on

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Speaker 1: iTunes and send us a screen clip of the review,

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Speaker 1: we will consider your entry considered that an entry for

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Speaker 1: getting either uh a north Woods Bear Products bottle of

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Speaker 1: Scent or this week. What it is is our partners

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Speaker 1: at w Hunting Supply are given away a T shirt

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Speaker 1: and a gift card T shirt and a gift card

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Speaker 1: to one person that leaves us a review, gets a

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Speaker 1: screen capture and then communicates that back to us through Instagram,

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Speaker 1: private message, Facebook private message or an email at info

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Speaker 1: at Bear hyphen Hunting dot com. If you've already done it,

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Speaker 1: thanks a ton. We've got a lot of good feedback

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Speaker 1: or got a lot of good reviews on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We really appreciate that. And you are also in the

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Speaker 1: running still. So this week it is from our buddies

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Speaker 1: at w Hunting Supply. Also want to give a shout

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Speaker 1: out to our buddies at the Western Bear Foundation. There

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Speaker 1: are a nonprofit bear hunting conservation organization out west. Check

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Speaker 1: out those guys. They're doing a ton of great stuff

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Speaker 1: out west. On now to the podcast about Venomous Snakes

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Speaker 1: with my buddy Dr Chris Jenkins. Well, we are in Hartford, Tennessee,

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Speaker 1: which is is our and forty five minutes from where

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Speaker 1: my guest Chris Jenkins lives. Um we're at We're a

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Speaker 1: pretty nice gas station here, I'd say, yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: good spot to to get a little breakfast, get a

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Speaker 1: biscuit and coffee and uh yeah in the beautiful mountains.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, man, it is a dreary, foggy day. This

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Speaker 1: is why they call these the Smoky Mountains. I guess

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Speaker 1: is because the fog is incredible here. It really is.

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Speaker 1: I guess the steepness of the mountains and the humidity,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Something about these mountains really is pretty

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Speaker 1: unique for fog. Yeah, no, I agree. They call it

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Speaker 1: smokey for a reason. So well, thanks a ton for

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Speaker 1: coming over here, Chris. Give me, give me a general introduction.

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Speaker 1: And we said before we we met fifteen minutes ago,

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Speaker 1: and now I knew about you through through back country

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Speaker 1: hunters and anglers and uh and just stuff that I

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Speaker 1: had seen online. But what's cool about this podcast is

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Speaker 1: I've got a ton of questions for you about who

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Speaker 1: you are and what you do. And one of the

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Speaker 1: main things we're gonna talk about, uh, and we'll probably

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Speaker 1: talk about other things, but is about venomous snakes. So

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Speaker 1: that's what this podcast. If you've clicked on this podcast

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Speaker 1: and you get the e B gbs from Venomous Snakes,

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Speaker 1: keep listening, don't turn it off. But no, so give

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Speaker 1: me a just a even a personal introduction, where you're

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Speaker 1: from and kind of what you're doing these days. But well,

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Speaker 1: I'll start off by telling you where I'm at, and

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Speaker 1: then you know how I got there. So you know,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I walk a very fine line in

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Speaker 1: my life. You know, my greatest loves in this world, um,

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Speaker 1: outside of my my personal life and my family are

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Speaker 1: are snakes in particular, venomous snakes and hunting and fishing,

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes hunting and fishing community is not the greatest

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Speaker 1: fan of snakes, and oftentimes snake fans are not the

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Speaker 1: greatest fans of hunting and fishing. That's a broad generalization,

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Speaker 1: but I walked that fine line between the two, and

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Speaker 1: so that's pretty interesting. So currently I am the I'm

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Speaker 1: the chief executive officer of the Orient Society, which is

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Speaker 1: a nonprofit and we focus on you know, basically research

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Speaker 1: and conservation of rare reptiles and amphibians all around the world.

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Speaker 1: But my personal specialty would be venomous snakes and rattlesnakes. UM.

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Speaker 1: I also serve as UM the chair of the Viper

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Speaker 1: Specialist Group for the International Union for the Conservation of Nature,

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Speaker 1: which administers the Red List. For example, Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: there would be a bear specialist group. There's a kind

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Speaker 1: of a specialist group, you know, for every group of animals.

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Speaker 1: So I created and chair the the Viper Specialist Group,

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Speaker 1: where I work with and coordinate hundreds of people in

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Speaker 1: countries all around the world doing viper conservation biology. UM

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Speaker 1: and I'm also the founding chairman of the soon to

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Speaker 1: be Georgia after of of back country hunters and anglers.

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Speaker 1: So I've got kind of a uh, you know, taking

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Speaker 1: along circuitous route as most of us have through through life.

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Speaker 1: But in my career. First of all, I grew up

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Speaker 1: in New England, um and uh I spent a lot

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Speaker 1: of time there. Uh I ended up. I kind of

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Speaker 1: grew up as in the outdoors. I grew up in

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Speaker 1: a very rural part of New England, and I grew

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Speaker 1: up in Massachusetts, kind of right on the Massachusetts Vermont

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Speaker 1: border right now, And I ended up. I ended up

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Speaker 1: you know, as a child, I was as real into

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Speaker 1: the outdoors. I was, you know, a hunting fish and

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Speaker 1: and hike and spend a lot of time in the woods.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I actually had quite a fear

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Speaker 1: of snakes when I was a young child. You know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of people in my line

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Speaker 1: of work have the opposite story. You know, they were

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Speaker 1: away out hung down, these animals, trying to find the snakes,

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Speaker 1: trying to find the frogs. I actually had quite a

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Speaker 1: fear of them. Yeah, and uh where they're venomous snakes

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Speaker 1: up there in Massachusetts. There are venomous snakes in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: But there's only a handful of populations left. They're actually

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Speaker 1: one of the they're an endangered species in the state.

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Speaker 1: UM chamber rattle snakes, um and their copper heads and

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Speaker 1: parts of the regions as well. Um, most New England states.

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Speaker 1: You know, New Hampshire is down to one population, Vermont's

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Speaker 1: down to really to extinct in Maine. There's gonna be

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Speaker 1: five or six in each of Massachusetts in Connecticut. So um,

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Speaker 1: it's they're one of the six individual animals. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Populations h New Hampshire did get to a point where

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Speaker 1: you could count the number of snakes in the state,

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Speaker 1: real load numbers. Um. They're working on turning that around.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so I grew up there and I ended

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Speaker 1: up going to do my undergraduate degree at the University

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Speaker 1: of Massachusetts in the Wildlife Biology department. And I actually

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Speaker 1: I am a bear fanatic. I wanted to be a

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Speaker 1: bear biologist. That was my goal. And wild left school

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Speaker 1: and I ended up having my first, uh my first

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Speaker 1: summer internship was out in California and the Sierra Nevadas

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Speaker 1: and it just happened to be on turtles and frogs,

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Speaker 1: and so I went out and I did the job,

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Speaker 1: and it was. It was a great experience. I saw

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Speaker 1: my first rattle snake in the wild up in the

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Speaker 1: up in the Sierra As at a place called Shaver Lake,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and it was interesting. When I got back

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Speaker 1: to New England, I just found I was going out

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Speaker 1: in the woods. I was still interested in bears and

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Speaker 1: track and deer and all that, but I found myself

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Speaker 1: continually going to wetlands looking for frogs, looking for snakes.

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Speaker 1: So it just changed this perspective. And I really and

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Speaker 1: I knew I had this this fear of snakes. I

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Speaker 1: realized it was actually this really intense fascination and and

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Speaker 1: so I was red find what maybe your mother would

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Speaker 1: have called fear exactly. And everybody has it. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I talk about snakes people, I always say, nobody's

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Speaker 1: indifferent to a snake. You just walk by and like

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Speaker 1: there's a squirrel. You know, It's it's it's extreme, excuse me, fear,

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Speaker 1: it's extreme excitement. It's it's an extreme emotion. So I

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Speaker 1: took excuse me that extreme and realized it was actually fascination.

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Speaker 1: I forced myself to explore that. So I bought a

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Speaker 1: snake as a pet, and I started spending time going

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Speaker 1: out and looking for him, and you know, searching out

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Speaker 1: people who uh, you know, we're working on them and

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Speaker 1: going out with them. So going on from there, I

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Speaker 1: went on I did my masters and wildlife conservation at

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Speaker 1: also at University of Massachusetts, and I didn't quite get

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Speaker 1: to the point of working with snakes, but I did

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Speaker 1: my master's research on salamanders up in New England, UM

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Speaker 1: and just kind of continued that growth and uh and

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Speaker 1: then from there I went out to Idaho and I

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Speaker 1: lived in Idaho for about ten years. I did my

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Speaker 1: PhD on Great Basin rattle snakes real close to the

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Speaker 1: Yellowstone kind of in southeast Idaho, just just southwest of

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Speaker 1: Yellowstone National Park, and uh, you know, I spent my

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Speaker 1: entire time out there working on the ecology of rattle

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Speaker 1: snakes and and just dove in you know, foote first

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Speaker 1: and and basically after those experiences that I had um

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Speaker 1: in uh in California that introduced me to reptiles. Amphibian's

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Speaker 1: career wise, I have not looked back. I've continued my

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Speaker 1: interest in in hunting and fishing in the outdoors the

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Speaker 1: whole time. But it was really on the personal side.

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Speaker 1: It was more recently that I kind of got into

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Speaker 1: the conservation world within the hunting and fishing space. So man,

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating. So so you have a doctorate in what

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Speaker 1: I have a doctorate in biology biological sciences. So yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: you know the I guess the the fascinating thing, and

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Speaker 1: I would know very little about it. But reptiles would

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Speaker 1: be an indicator species. Is that right? I mean, in

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Speaker 1: most cases an indicator species, meaning they indicate their health,

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Speaker 1: indicates a whole lot of stuff being in check or

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Speaker 1: out of check in the ecosystem structure above them. Is

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Speaker 1: that a good way to describe it. Yeah. I would

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Speaker 1: say many reptile species, UM, and many amphibian species as well,

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Speaker 1: in particular, UM would be indicators of different types of

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Speaker 1: things in the environment. UM. A lot of animals that

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Speaker 1: that respond really quickly to change are good indicators because

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Speaker 1: their populations would change very quickly and don't respond well.

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Speaker 1: It's why would a salamander be that? So salamanders are Uh,

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Speaker 1: first of all, they their skin, many salamanders, of many

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Speaker 1: of the salamanders here in these mountains. Um. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I should say, we are we are sitting in the

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Speaker 1: biodiversity hot spot in the world for salamanders. The Southern

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Speaker 1: Appalachians are the hot spot, more species of salamanders here

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Speaker 1: than anywhere, but um salamanders. My next question after you

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Speaker 1: answer the first question is why is that? So go

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Speaker 1: ahead and answer the first question, then we'll go back

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Speaker 1: to the why so um So salamanders as well as

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Speaker 1: other amphibians, they have a different type of skin than

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Speaker 1: we do. It's very porous um. And that's why you

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Speaker 1: think of of frogs and salamanders and things like that

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Speaker 1: needing to stay wet. And that's because their skin doesn't

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Speaker 1: need to stay wet. And there are some species, many

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Speaker 1: of which live in these mountains right here, they don't

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Speaker 1: even have lungs. They actually breathe through their skin and

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Speaker 1: their their skin needs to be wet to to facilitate

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Speaker 1: them um. And so because of that, their skin is

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Speaker 1: very poor us and absorbs a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: it just has the ability to any change, and any

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Speaker 1: environmental change is going to dramatically affect their life cycle certainly.

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Speaker 1: And we uh, you know, we have a globally amphibian

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Speaker 1: crisis right now where hundreds of species in recent years

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Speaker 1: have gone extinct. Um. There are diseases a couple kind

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Speaker 1: of premier diseases, but there are diseases that are hitting

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Speaker 1: these amphibians that are just causing waves of declines. I mean, we,

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Speaker 1: being the greater group of herpetologists in the world, have

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Speaker 1: have followed the decline of Central American amphibians, for exlimply

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Speaker 1: move like a wave through Central America and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the snakes that fed on the salamanders declined behind them.

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Speaker 1: So they are they are great indicators. I will say

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Speaker 1: there are other reptiles that that serve um kind of

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Speaker 1: interesting other ecological roles like keystone species or umbrella type species.

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Speaker 1: We could get into those terms. But your second quite

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Speaker 1: shows Oh why why? Why is why are the Southern

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Speaker 1: Appalachians a hotspot for salamanders? Yeah, so the Southern Appalachians are.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're a wonderful place. I mean, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've lived here about ten years, and I've lived

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Speaker 1: in different parts of the country again, New England, the Rockies,

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Speaker 1: I've traveled the world. But you know, I feel like

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Speaker 1: I moved home, you know, I mean, I just I

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Speaker 1: love it. You know, it's hard not to feel like

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Speaker 1: you've moved home when you come here. It's it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why. My wife actually said when I

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Speaker 1: was coming up here to see Mr Royce, she said, Uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how she said it. She's been over here.

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Speaker 1: She said, I feel like you're going I feel like

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Speaker 1: you're going home. She actually said that. Maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: common theme here. I don't know. That's great. The people

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Speaker 1: are great. Maybe it's the Dolly Parton signs on the

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Speaker 1: interstate like welcome to Tennessee. It's a it's just a

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Speaker 1: great part of the world. The people are great, friendly,

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Speaker 1: there's a deep culture and heritage that's it's remained largely,

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Speaker 1: and you're surrounded by public land and wildlife. It's just

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Speaker 1: a wonderful place. So in terms of salem Anders, um,

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Speaker 1: this is an interesting area because as you think about

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Speaker 1: how our country was glaciated over time, Uh, this was

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Speaker 1: a real refugia and and so's it was a refuge.

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Speaker 1: It was a place that wasn't glaciated in places to

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Speaker 1: the north, not so far north. Were so a lot

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Speaker 1: of parts on the East coast that we're glaciated. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: certainly north of here, Like if you go up to

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Speaker 1: you know, some good bear hunting countries say, like the

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Speaker 1: mountains in Maine or New Hampshire, and you go out

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Speaker 1: in the mountains, they have a distinctly different field and

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Speaker 1: that you know, I'm the mountains are very karst, maybe

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Speaker 1: very steep, even for being an older range, they're they're

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Speaker 1: pretty not sharp, but I mean go straight up and

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Speaker 1: straight straight up and down you go up to Maine,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna find these giant like bolder fields and huge

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Speaker 1: swamp wetlands. All of that. Those landscape features were created

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Speaker 1: by ice that came through and tore up that landscape.

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Speaker 1: We didn't have that. That's why our mountains here have

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Speaker 1: just eroded over time, and that's why you don't see

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Speaker 1: those types of features. There's there's rock exposed, but you

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Speaker 1: don't see those giant talas fields that you see in

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Speaker 1: the northeast. So anyways, as a refugia, it's also a

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Speaker 1: very complex place. There's a lot of slope as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of different aspects or the way

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Speaker 1: the mountains face north south, east west. And so what

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Speaker 1: that results in because all these interesting little you know,

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Speaker 1: we'd call them niches or or little places that that

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Speaker 1: animals could go to and in a very small area

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Speaker 1: find something that they need, maybe a dark and cold

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Speaker 1: and wet like the north side of a mountain. And

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Speaker 1: there's because the irregular noss of eroded mountain landscape, there's

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Speaker 1: just tons of north facing slopes or east facing slopes

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Speaker 1: or exactly. And so and then you combine that with

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Speaker 1: all the water and so our stream systems given all

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Speaker 1: the big wetlands, but our stream systems are complex, going

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Speaker 1: all the way from high elevation seeps all the way

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Speaker 1: down to big rivers. So you have this real You

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Speaker 1: had a high diversity of niches as as I described,

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Speaker 1: and and you had all these animals that were pushed

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Speaker 1: into this area. And the thought is that they went

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Speaker 1: into these places and because of that, you had the

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Speaker 1: development of a lot of species that over time, during

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Speaker 1: that period evolved in a particular niche. And what we're

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Speaker 1: living in today with the salamanders and many other animals

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Speaker 1: is kind of the remnants of that. Wow, that makes

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Speaker 1: total sense. M hm. So to jump to venomous snakes,

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Speaker 1: first of all, you corrected me before the podcast because

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Speaker 1: I said poisonous snakes. Tell tell us why that's wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the first thing I'd say, and in general with snakes.

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Speaker 1: Is that so much of what you hear or learn

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Speaker 1: through family, friends, media, um are our myths or exaggerations.

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Speaker 1: And and so if somebody saw one garter snake in

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Speaker 1: their backyard, they saw a hundred diamondback rattle snakes that

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Speaker 1: were chasing them through the yard. I mean, obviously I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm exaggerating there, but that that's what happens. And so

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Speaker 1: um the size of snakes getting um exaggerated, for example,

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Speaker 1: the numbers of snakes. But so this is one of

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Speaker 1: those things. I wouldn't call it a myth. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's not I personally, Um, it doesn't bother me. But

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Speaker 1: but a lot of Yeah, So if if something is poisonous,

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Speaker 1: there are many we're talking about salamanders, there are poisonous

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Speaker 1: salamanders for example, where if something else ingested them, if

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Speaker 1: you were to eat a poisonous salamander, if a predator

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Speaker 1: was to eat it, that would be UM. A poison

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Speaker 1: versus a venom is something that venomates you, something that

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Speaker 1: delivers it. And so our venomous snakes have mechanisms for

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Speaker 1: injecting very complex venom cocktails, if you will, that can

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Speaker 1: make us sick in different ways. So a mushroom would

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Speaker 1: be poisonous if you ate it and got sick. A

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Speaker 1: rattlesnake is venomous when he injects venom into you. That

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. That makes sense. What okay, tell me

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Speaker 1: about the tell me about the organization that you work for.

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Speaker 1: And I ultimately want to get to talking about timor rattles, rattlesnakes,

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Speaker 1: copper heads and kind of you know, I'm an old

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Speaker 1: snake man, Okay, I really am. I've been fascinated with

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Speaker 1: snakes my whole life. And I was an early adapter

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Speaker 1: because of my father, who was an early adapter of

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Speaker 1: guys that didn't kill snakes. I mean, you know, you

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Speaker 1: in these mountains and the mountains of the Ozarks and

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Speaker 1: Washingtons in Arkansas, I mean people killed snakes. That's what

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Speaker 1: they did. You know what around the world. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: were probably an outcast because well but and it was

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Speaker 1: my dad who no one taught him that. He just

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Speaker 1: was out in the woods enough that he, you know,

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Speaker 1: early on he killed rattlesnakes and stuff and and and

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Speaker 1: he got to a point where he was like that

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Speaker 1: snakes not trying to hurt me, and he valued it

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Speaker 1: and he passed that on to us and and uh,

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Speaker 1: and I actually got to where I like the I like,

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Speaker 1: I don't do it anymore. I like to catch them

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Speaker 1: and release him, you know, just with my hands. And uh.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so that's where I want to get to that.

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Speaker 1: But tell me about the organization that you're well, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to get to all that, and I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: some of my philosophies. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would be, uh might be a little surprised that

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Speaker 1: you know that I'm not, you know, real extreme on that,

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Speaker 1: but I have some interesting thoughts on that that I'll

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Speaker 1: talk about. But to start off, I'll start with the

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Speaker 1: orient Siety and I'll i'll briefly just tell you the origins. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I was after I finished my PhD at Idaho State.

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Speaker 1: I was working for Wildlife Conservation Society, which is um

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Speaker 1: best known as the Bronx SU. The Bronx is the headquarters,

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Speaker 1: but they have hundreds of conservation biologists all over the world.

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Speaker 1: And I was working in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem on

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Speaker 1: rattlesnakes and sage grouse and a whole variety of wildlife.

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Speaker 1: And I got contacted by a gentleman from New York City, UM,

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Speaker 1: a gentleman named Dr. Kaplan who was our our founding

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Speaker 1: chairman of our board UM and we founded the organization together.

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Speaker 1: And he happened to be down in Florida with his

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Speaker 1: daughter ore Ian and they she had the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: kind of have a behind the scenes look at this

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Speaker 1: zoo and they put an Eastern Indigos nake, which we

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Speaker 1: could talk about but that I'll just say that they're

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Speaker 1: one of the most amazing snakes we have here in

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Speaker 1: North America. Our largest native snake, a snake eating snake. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: fascinating animals. And so she had the opportunity to hold

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Speaker 1: one of those. Her father, Dr. Kaplan, he happened to

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Speaker 1: be one of the biggest philanthropists in the world for UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, for for rare cats, things like tigers and lions,

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Speaker 1: and he has another organization that works to save those.

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Speaker 1: And she asked her father, she said, you know, she's

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Speaker 1: holding the snake, and she said, Dad, you know, can

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Speaker 1: I have one of these? Because a pet and a

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Speaker 1: little girl, a little girl, young girl, you know, probably

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Speaker 1: at the time, I don't remember zachte age. Let's just

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Speaker 1: say she's in the ballpark of seven years old somewhere

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Speaker 1: take and and he said, um, you know, he knows

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Speaker 1: a lot about indigo snakes, very very knowledgeable. And he

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Speaker 1: just he said, you know, sweetie, just you know, you can't.

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Speaker 1: That's an endangered species. And it is a species on

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Speaker 1: our it's a threatened species on our federal Endangered Species list.

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Speaker 1: So you can't. That's a that's a snake that's declining.

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Speaker 1: It's an endangered species. And and she turned to her

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Speaker 1: father and she said, Dad, will you do for indigo

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Speaker 1: snakes what you're doing for tigers? And so anyways, he

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Speaker 1: was working through WCS on some of the CAP projects

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Speaker 1: and so he tracked me down as a as a

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Speaker 1: snake ecologist at WCS, and and the rest is history.

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Speaker 1: We created this organization were originally founded to work primarily

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Speaker 1: in the Southeastern coastal plain um and on this snake

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Speaker 1: and some of the animals that depends on, for example,

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Speaker 1: gopher tortoises. It's a tortoise that um is a great

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Speaker 1: example of one of these keystone species image. You can

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Speaker 1: talk about what that Well, the snake will eat some

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Speaker 1: baby tortoises, but it depends on the tortoise. Is the

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Speaker 1: tortoise digs a hole, and that whole is used by

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Speaker 1: over three other species that we in science have documented,

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Speaker 1: from game species to bob by quail um, all kinds

425
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: of other reptiles, amphibians, mammals, birds, So it's a critically

426
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: important animal. So you're probably getting the keystone for digging holes.

427
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: The keystone concept as you pull the keystone out of

428
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: a door at all collapses, you pull the gopher tortoise out.

429
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: All those other animals that use that whole have a problem.

430
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: But so anyways, we were founded to work down in

431
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: that area and we built the organization UH to really

432
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: do what we call science fueled boots on the ground conservation.

433
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: What that means is we don't do lobbying, we don't

434
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: do litigation, we don't do advocacy. We do science and

435
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: we do things on the ground, tangible things to make

436
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: a difference. So we um, we buy land, We do

437
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: conservation easements on land. We do a lot of habitat

438
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: restoration work. We do reintroductions of rare reptiles, so we

439
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: have breeding facilities where we breed them and then release

440
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: them um into a while to restore populations. We do

441
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: a lot of inventory monitor real hands on tangible type approaches.

442
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: And then I'll wrap the ore M piece up just

443
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 1: by saying, over the last say, six seven years, we've

444
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: been in existence about eleven years now. Over the last

445
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: six or seven years, we expanded our scope UM and

446
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: we now have three large initiatives in North America, one

447
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: being that southeastern coastal plain. We have one we call

448
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: Appalachian Highlands, which is focused on the landscape we're sitting in.

449
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: It's focused on species like salamanders, timber rattle snakes, some

450
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: of the rare turtles. UM and we have a program

451
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: called Great Northern Forests, which we have is based out

452
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: of Vermont, but works across that kind of that transition

453
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: between the heart northern hardwood forests and the boreal that transition.

454
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: We work on a lot of rare freshwater turtles up there.

455
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: So we've expanded over time. We do have UM We

456
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: have and have had small projects throughout Western United States,

457
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: all over the world in other countries. So UM but

458
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: we kind of followed that same model of how we

459
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: developed that's incredible boots on the ground approach. What tell

460
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: me about this snake? This this what it's a what's

461
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: the name of this snake. It's an Eastern Indigo snake. See,

462
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: I've never even I've heard of it. Threw you on

463
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: your social media, but I would not have known that

464
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: that snake was down here. Where does that snake live?

465
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: How big does it get? So the first thing I'd

466
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: say is is every every animal has a Latin name,

467
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: and its Latin name is dry Mark and Cooper I

468
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: and dry Mark and loosely translates into emperor or the

469
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: forest or king of the forest. And it truly is.

470
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: This is a giant predatory snake. I like to think

471
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: of it as like the tiger of the Southeastern coastal plain.

472
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: So they live in that. It's not venomous. It is

473
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: not venomous. It is immune to the venom of the

474
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: venomous snakes that live in its range because it eats

475
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: a lot of them. It's like a superhero. Yeah, they

476
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. Yeah, it's it's a fascinating

477
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: So it lives in the Southeastern coastal Plain. Historically, the

478
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: western edge of its range would have kind of been

479
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: just into southern Mississippi, and then it comes through. Yeah

480
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: they're no longer in Mississippi, but um, and then it

481
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: comes the historic range, comes all the way east through

482
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: southern Alabama, panhandle of Florida, and then it comes up

483
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: into uh, southeast Georgia, and it's historic range we think

484
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: kind of ended it about the Savannah River. So there

485
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: was some debate about whether it was ever in South Carolina.

486
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: But it's a lowland species. Um oftentimes associated with the

487
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: long leaf pine ecosystem, but but it occurs in all

488
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: types of ecosystems. So the record um, and this was

489
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: an animal that came from the vicinity of the Everglades

490
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: extreme South Florida. Record length is right about eight and

491
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: a half feet, so um and most people like eight

492
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: and a half feet that's not that big of a snake.

493
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: That's a big snake. That's the bigger round as an

494
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: average man's forearms. Yeah, a really big male could could

495
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: be you know, how be about that size and uh

496
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: in there again, they're they're highly predatory. They because of that,

497
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: just like any big predator in nature. You know, they

498
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: have a giant home range. They have the largest documented

499
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: home range of any native snake in North America. The

500
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: pythons of course have a bigger range, but um, you know,

501
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: so these animals they you know, an individual animal in

502
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: a year is covering thousands and thousands of acres potentially,

503
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: and they're you know, they're moving across these coastal plain

504
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: landscapes and you know can for prey. That's why we

505
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: call it. They're eating. Well, they're a generalist, so they

506
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: kind of eat any anything that moves the thing fit

507
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: in their mouth. Yeah, but about fifty percent of their

508
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: diet is is other snakes. So we could get into

509
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: the the evolution of snakes skulls, and people don't want

510
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: to hear me talk about that, so we won't, but

511
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 1: I will tell you there's two extremes, and a rattlesnake

512
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: and an indigo represent those two extremes. You have certain

513
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: snakes that actually, a rattlesnake is like this, has a

514
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: really light skull, there's not a lot of bone, they're

515
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: real fragile skulls, a lot of soft tissue, and they

516
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: can open their mouths really really wide and swallow big things.

517
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: And then you have other animals like indigo snakes. King

518
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 1: snakes would be another one. You've probably seen king snakes

519
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: that they have a really rigid skull, a lot of muscle,

520
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: a lot of bone really powerful, but they can't open

521
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: their mouths that way. And so those snakes over time

522
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: time have evolved that they typically eat more narrow things

523
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: like a lot of lizards, a lot of snakes. So

524
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: indigo snakes are one of them. That's why you hear

525
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: kink snakes eat other snakes. They do. They're very similar

526
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: to indigoes in that regard. H wow, So, yeah, I

527
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,959
Speaker 1: didn't mean to interrupt your train of thought there. So

528
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: this this thing is a snake eater snake. Its diet

529
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: would be other snakes and then you know everything else there.

530
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: You know, they eat lizards, they eat you know, they'll

531
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: eat birds, they'll eat small mammals, they'll eat baby tortoises,

532
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: and they're immune to rattlesnake, copper head, water mocks, and venom. Yes, sir,

533
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: so the we watched one eat an eastern diamonback rattlesnake

534
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: once and um, the indigo snake grabbed this diamondback mid body.

535
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: The diamond back immediately swung around and sunk its fangs

536
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 1: into the indigo snake. And then the diamond back released

537
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: and the indigo snake proceeded to walk its mouth up

538
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: the body of the diamond back till it got to

539
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: the head, crushed the head with its powerful jaw, and

540
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: then it just swallowed the diamond back hole. That's incredible. Yeah,

541
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: it was amazing. So why are these snakes in uh

542
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: in jeopardy? Just is it habitat degradation? Is that people

543
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: have been killing them for two hundred years. I'm sure

544
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: some people have killed them, but they're an interesting snake,

545
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of like king snakes, and that in general the

546
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: public recognizes them as a good snake. You'll hear a lot. Yeah,

547
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: so people would people would be less apt to kill them.

548
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: What really is driving it is probably two things. One

549
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: the decline of the gopher tortoise that whole they need

550
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: much of their range. They need that hole to survive

551
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: the winter. And they're really a tropical snake. Their relatives

552
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: go all the way down into South America. They're kind

553
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: of like they got stuck in southeast North America, asted

554
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: down and so they need those tortoise burrows to survive

555
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 1: the winter. So the decline of the tortoise, armadilla holes

556
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: man armadilla has moved in that won't work for them

557
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: maybe in some places, but they're not these tortoise burrows

558
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: got deep. Um, you know, temperatures are very uh, it's

559
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: basically the same temperature as the deep soil down there

560
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: year round. So in the summer it's it would be

561
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: cooler than the air, and then in the winter would

562
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: be much warmer than the air. So anyways, the winter

563
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 1: they need those. So that's part of the other part

564
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: is linked to this them being the emperor of the forest,

565
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: being the tiger of our coastal plains, and that they

566
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: they need to live out their life. They need to

567
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: hunt and travel vast landscapes in our southeastern coastal plain

568
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: on cur as you to go on Google Maps or

569
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: Google Earth and and just start picking random places in

570
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: the coastal plain. I mean is it's like the Great Plains.

571
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: It's one of the most fragmented converted landscapes out there.

572
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: So these snakes are crossing roads frequently, and it seems

573
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: to be a theme inside of a lot of what's

574
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: happening probably worldwide, but specifically in North America. It is fragmentation.

575
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: So for everything, for bears, for all kinds of stuff.

576
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: When you have man made fragmentation of large habitats, that's problems.

577
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: I mean like for bears in Arkansas, it would be

578
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: interstate forty dividing the Washtalls and the Ozarks. Well, these

579
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: two populations have now pretty much become alapatrick as. That's

580
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: what am I using the right word? Like separate populations?

581
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: Uh in in you know, before that highway was there,

582
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 1: they were interbreeding, which would have been bed are for them. Uh.

583
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: But so what you're saying is that just the intrusion

584
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: of man building roads, clear and pasture draining swamps to

585
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: make cattle pastures or fields or is hurting them. Yeah,

586
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: so perhaps more than any snake in the Southeastern coastal plain.

587
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: They need big wild landscapes and and you know those

588
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: are those are you know out of premium now in

589
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: the southeast. So yeah, that's incredible. See I didn't even

590
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: know about that snake. Um. So the venomous snakes that

591
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: we would have in the southeast, can I can I

592
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: try to name them? Okay, there's there'ship, there's not that

593
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: many depends where you are what you define Southeast Okay,

594
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: And I guess I would categorize like I don't know,

595
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: we go with Arkansas? How about that? Well? Okay, I

596
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: know the ones in Arkansas, because I've had the poster

597
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: on my wall. Yeah, you know, the so the timber rattlesnake,

598
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: copper head water mocas, and coral snake, the Western coral snake,

599
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: Texas coral snake. Yeah, and I've and uh and then

600
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: there there are parts of Arkansas that would overlap the

601
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: western diamondback, which I've never seen one, but they claim

602
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: part of the part of the little circle comes into

603
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: western Arkansas. Um, that would be it, wouldn't it. Pigmy Okay,

604
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: pigmy rattlesnake, which a lot of people confuse for being

605
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: baby timber rattle snakes because a full grown pigmy rattlesnake

606
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 1: is actually a very small snake maybe foot and a

607
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: half actually, maybe a little bigger. You know, I've never

608
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: seen a coral snake, but I have seen multiple is

609
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: it false coral snakes, the ones that have the backwards color,

610
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: you know, red touch, yellow, kilo fellow. Yeah, so there

611
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: are It depends where you are, but there are there

612
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: are multiple species in the southeast that could potentially become

613
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: fused with a coral snake. Another thing, I just want

614
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: to back up relate the coral snake to the indigo.

615
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: Coral snakes are also snakes that eat other snakes and lizards, um.

616
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: But coral snakes are interesting in that the bulk of

617
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: their diversity, most coral snake species are in kind of

618
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: Central and South America, and you can go really throughout

619
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: their range, and most places that you'll find a coral snake,

620
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: you will find another snake that is non venomous that

621
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,879
Speaker 1: has a similar looking pattern. And so ecology we call

622
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: that mimicry. And there's a lot of debate about mimicry

623
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: and coral snacks, and I don't want to get into that,

624
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: but I will say the thought is that over long

625
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: periods of time, so a coral snake is a highly

626
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: venomous animal um. And so if you look like a

627
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: very venomous animal, and over long periods of time, predators

628
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: learn that that's what something dangerous looks like. You know,

629
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: in theory, even though you're not venomous, those predators would

630
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: avoid you. Would that simplification? Would that be? Would that

631
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: be basically just almost by chance, over eons, that a

632
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: non venomous snake would evolve an adaptation of color that

633
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: that resembled that already solidified snake, and then he was

634
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: passed over, so that snake bread and then the next jip.

635
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: You know, so two snakes that kind of looked like

636
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: that snake bread and had offspring, and then of all

637
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: their offspring, the ones that looked more like the coral

638
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 1: snake were selected by nature to survive and breed. Am

639
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: I on the right track? Meaning essentially as natural selection

640
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: and natural selection is is not much different really than

641
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: you know you here in this area. You know it's

642
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: famous for plothhounds. It's not much different than the creation

643
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: of plot hounds. That's I mean, obviously a human selection,

644
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: but it's the same concept. You're selecting for certain characteristics

645
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: and you're breeding them into an animal, and in the

646
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: resulting offspring, if it's genetically passed on, have those characteristics.

647
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 1: And so it's the same thing with that or other.

648
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: It's it's just a highly refined evolution. I mean, is

649
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: that that? That? Just what we see now looks so intentional.

650
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean, like because we you know, like these little

651
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: coral snakes that I've seen in Arkansas, I never saw

652
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: a very big one. Well, the the I don't even

653
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: know what they're called. I call them false coral snakes

654
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: because the colors were reversed. So coral snake has this red,

655
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: yellow and black beautiful. I mean, it's an incredible snake.

656
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: And um so if the if the colors are a

657
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: certain you know, you identify coral snake based upon the

658
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: pattern of the colors. And yeah, it's it's it's yeah,

659
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. People have come up all these rhymes. You

660
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: mentioned one, so yeah, I mean it's an interesting natural

661
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: selection process. And I'm not trying to um, I just

662
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: want to stay I'm not trying to offend any any

663
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 1: of your listeners. You'll hear me talk a lot about

664
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: evolution and natural selection and I mean to me, um,

665
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: to me, there, natural selection is you know, I mean,

666
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: it's it's fact. It's something that's happened. I'm not making

667
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: any statement about how life was created or any of that,

668
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: but I mean, we see I talked about plot plot hoounds,

669
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 1: but we know that animals are created by either human

670
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: process or natural process. We just it happens in nature.

671
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: We've seen it. So I'm not trying to offend anybody.

672
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: You know what this is and we don't have to

673
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: talk about this. But I am a Bible believing creationists,

674
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: and I absolutely believe in I mean, I have no

675
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: problem looking at natural selection and certain processes inside evolution

676
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: that just our science that they're not make sense, they're

677
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive. And I think if if you are

678
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: Bible believe in Christian as you mentioned, you don't have

679
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 1: to be afraid of natural selection, and if you're someone

680
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: who believes in natural selection and evolution, you don't have

681
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: to be afraid of of the other side. I think

682
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: that's a great you know, yeah, that's a great that's

683
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: a great thing to say because some I'm with you

684
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: sometimes saying the the E word in some parts of

685
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: the world. But I've never been afraid of that. That

686
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: is not a statement. I'm not saying anything about God

687
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: or religion. You know, they could in my mind, they

688
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: could potentially both exists. Yeah, well, so, um, rattlesnakes, rattlesnakes,

689
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: rattles all, rattlesnakes are are one of my favorite animals

690
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: on the planet. Timber rattlesnakes are are probably my favorite. Yeah,

691
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: rattlesnake and probably my favorite animal on the planet. So

692
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: what would the the common names that I've heard of

693
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: timber rattlers in Arkansas would be velvet tail. Is that

694
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: do you hear that? I don't hear that here. But

695
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: there's a lot of names and a lot of regionalized names.

696
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: So timber rattlesnake is a wide ranging animal. It is

697
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: truly like America's rattlesnake. It's it's it. I mean, it

698
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: was on our flags in the American Revolution. We people

699
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: like Benjamin Franklin. Benjamin Franklin wanted this animal to be

700
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: our our our national symbol. Imagine if if there was

701
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: a timber rattlesnake everywhere instead of a bald eagle. But

702
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: that's what what what he wanted. He was also you know,

703
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: people have heard about the turkey as well, but he

704
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: was a big proponent. There's some great quotes and the

705
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: reason is um, you know. And we also used it

706
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: on the flags. You see those flags been revived uh lately,

707
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 1: you know the yellow flags with that don't tread, don't tread,

708
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: that's a timber rattlesnake. And those flags they're multiple, but

709
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: those were used back in the times around the American

710
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: Revolution to symbolize, you know, just that that dedication and

711
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: that independent that that we here in New America has

712
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: had and as we fought for our independence from you

713
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: from England. So so it's uh, it is America's snake.

714
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: And part of that is it's it's kind of the

715
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: dominant snake in the eastern United States. It goes all

716
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: the way historically from Maine down into North Florida, and

717
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: then it goes west into the kind of northern Midwest.

718
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: You can find it in states like Minnesota and Wisconsin.

719
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: It's pretty rare in those places. And then it goes

720
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 1: all the way down through Arkansas, Oklahoma, places like Texas,

721
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: and it starts to its range, starts to peter out there.

722
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 1: So it's a very wide ranging snake. Um, it's the

723
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: rattlesnake that you know, probably most Americans encounter when they

724
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: encounter rattlesnake just because of the human populations. And it

725
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: has a lot of different names. The two big common

726
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: ones that you hear are timber rattlesnake obviously and cane

727
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: brake rattlesnake and h in what in my part of

728
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: the world, meaning more on the Atlantic side, that really

729
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: comes from the two things that the snake looks different.

730
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: It's the same species, but it looks different in different places. Um,

731
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: and it's a hardwood forest associated snake. So when you're

732
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: in the mountains like this, it's kind of everywhere, you know,

733
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it can it lives in this

734
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: whole landscape because it's a hardwood dominated landscape. Could you

735
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: would you say that it's an Eastern deciduous forest in

736
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: fringe and fringe, So two things Eastern deciduous forest and

737
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: then kind of the fringe of that snake, I mean,

738
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: is that the kind of the bounding that it lives

739
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: in the Yeah, I mean that's the domin the dominant

740
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: part of its range would be in the eastern deciduous forest.

741
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: But then like as it gets west out into you know,

742
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: some places, say like Texas, Oklahoma, it is going to

743
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 1: be more associated with kind of you know, your hardwood draws.

744
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: But the cane brake, Say, let's take Georgia where I live.

745
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: So you've got the mountains and you get that hardwood

746
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: forest and the the timber rattle snakes there. They look

747
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,959
Speaker 1: first of all, they're they're smaller than the cane brake,

748
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: and they come in two color morphs. They're either yellow

749
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: and they can be bright yellow, or they're black and

750
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: they can be bright black, or they could be somewhere

751
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: in between, but usually it's pretty easy to characterize them.

752
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: Oh that's a yellow morph or that's a black morph.

753
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: And then as you get more into the lowlands of

754
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: the southeast, they start to take on a different look.

755
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: They're bigger, they're typically kind of like grayish. They might

756
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: have a little pink hue to them at times um

757
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: and people call them cane brakes. And as you get

758
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: down in same same species genetically, and as you get

759
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: down like into the coastal plain, say of Georgia, if

760
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: you think about where your hardwoods are, they're more in

761
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: the bottoms more where would you get planned, you'd get

762
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: cane brakes, you'd get switched cane and other things like,

763
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: because that's where they were finding them, that's what they're

764
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: seeing them. And don't get me wrong, timber rattlesnakes come

765
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: up into pine forests and do other things too, but

766
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: but generally you find them more associated with hardwood forests.

767
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: And that's why on the coastal plane they're more associated

768
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: with kind of the wet, swampy hardwood areas. Again it's generalization,

769
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: but how how big can timor rat get so I

770
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: don't remember the record off top of my head. It

771
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: certainly would be a coastal plane form, a cane brake form.

772
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: I'm here in the mountains, you know, we we I

773
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: spend a lot of time in the field monitoring their populations.

774
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: And you know, really a four ft rattlesnake would be

775
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: a really big one. I mean they can get bigger

776
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: than that too. But you know all these stories you

777
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: hear about you get it more with diamondbacks. But but

778
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: like you'll see all these pictures, you know, you get

779
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: this force perspective like fishermen do, where somebody's got a

780
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: snake on a hook and called it out for yeah,

781
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: and and so like Eastern diamondbacks, for example, which are

782
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: the biggest rattle snake in the world, Western Diamondbacks being

783
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 1: a close second, um easterns. I can't rember the exact record,

784
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: but it's somewhere in the ballpark of seven ft long.

785
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: But you'll see all these social media things, you know,

786
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: some some dead Eastern diamond back and they're talking about

787
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: a sixteen seventeen foot snakes. Let's just I mean, that

788
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 1: would be like seeing a you know, two thousand pounds

789
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: bear or something you know, not where the Eastern where

790
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: the Eastern diamondbacks. So this is another interesting myth with

791
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 1: snakes in general. It's because of these common names like

792
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 1: it's it gets perpetuated that that there are all these

793
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: different snakes in all these different places. So you hear

794
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: a lot of people say the diamondback rattlesnakes. You hear

795
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people say water mocks and are cotton

796
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: mouse in places where those snakes don't even occur. Um.

797
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: And with a diamondback, it could be, for example, a

798
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: timber rattlesnake that somebody is seeing with a cotton mouth.

799
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: There are a lot of cotton mouths. They have pretty

800
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: wide range as well. You certainly would have them in Arkansas. Um,

801
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of places they don't occur.

802
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: But if anybody I'm generalizing again, but if a lot

803
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: of people see a snake in the water, they oftentimes

804
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: think it's a cotton mouth, and um, in most in

805
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: many places cotton mouth ston't exists. And then even in

806
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: places like the southeast, there's a lot of water snakes

807
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 1: and so and they're actually pretty easy to tell. Apart

808
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: in terms of ideas, I'll get back to original question

809
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: with Eastern diamondbacks. But one thing I tell people, I

810
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: always get all these questions about identifying venomous snakes, and

811
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: I do a lot of presentations around the country on

812
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: snake safety and snake identification. And I've kind of gotten

813
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: to the point, may I'm a little jaded, but you know,

814
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: I can go through all these details, so I can

815
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: tell you what a rattlesnakes I looks like. I can

816
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: tell you what, uh, you know, what the the particular

817
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: shape of this and but they're all real fine characteristics.

818
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: And the rattle is a good one. But not all

819
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: rattlesnakes have their rattles, and we can talk about that too.

820
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: But but I've gotten to the point where, especially wh

821
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm talking to hunting groups now, I put up a

822
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: picture of a mule deer and a white tailed deer,

823
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: and you know, I basically say, if you're concerned, like

824
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: if you're going on a deer hunt, and say, you

825
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: only have a white tail tag, but mule deer and

826
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: white tailed overlap in that you just need to know

827
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: the difference. And there's and and you know, obviously the

828
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: antlers are much different, but there's differences in the body

829
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: size sometimes color like you just know the difference. And

830
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: when I look at these snakes, they simply look different.

831
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: And if you're concerned, let's say you're a waterfowl hunter

832
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: in Arkansas and you're concerned about cotton mouths, just learn

833
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: what a cotton mouth looks like versus a water snake.

834
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to it's it's easy, That's what

835
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: I'm telling you. It's as easy. But the problem is

836
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: is with snake identification, as with many things with snakes,

837
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: is when people, many people see a snake, they lose

838
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: their minds, their their minds literally stop functioning properly. And

839
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: if you realize, don't get wrong. If you step on

840
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: a snake, you should be concerned and you should immediately

841
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 1: try to get away from that. But most people people

842
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: need to realize that most venomous snakes to get bit

843
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 1: by them, you literally need to almost touch them. They

844
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: don't strike that far. You have to put your hand

845
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 1: on them, you have to put your foot on them.

846
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: You have to put it within six inches. Then you

847
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: you need to be concerned. But if you see a

848
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: snake ten feet away, remain calm, don't lose your mind,

849
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: and you can you can make very logical decisions like, oh,

850
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: that looks like a white tail versus a mule deer,

851
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: or a cotton mouth versus a water snake. So um,

852
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: I oftentimes when I'm talking about snake safety, one of

853
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: the best things to do is remain calm, and that

854
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 1: helps an identification. And if you can properly identify a snake, UM,

855
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: that's the first step to safety because most snakes you encounter,

856
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: UM will not be venomt you know, what do you

857
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: think about? So here, here's the scenario with killing snakes,

858
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: and and I can say I know for sure, you

859
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 1: know a person doesn't need to be killing snakes out

860
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: in the woods. Ever, the only what about a snake

861
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: that's in your yard? You gotta let's say, you gotta

862
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 1: four ft timber rattler in your yard. I had a

863
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: good friend of mine in Arkansas that lives in I'm

864
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: not gonna say the city lives in, but a big

865
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: city in Arkansas, lives in the suburbs. Um. He walked

866
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: out of his house back in the fall and there

867
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: was a monster timber rattler in his driveway. And I

868
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: mean he's got a seven year old daughter and his wife.

869
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 1: He that snake didn't fare very well, So what do

870
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: you think about that? So I'll tell you of the

871
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: legality of it versus my personal So the legality of the

872
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: the first thing I tell everybody relative to snakes is,

873
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: like other wildlife, there are laws in each state and

874
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: you should just you know, brush up on those if

875
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: you're concerned. And they vary from like some state like

876
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania that has a hunting season for them, which they've

877
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: actually done it relatively well in terms of how they

878
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: administer it um to other states were like Georgia where

879
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: they excluded aren't federally protected. Like rattlesnakes, well, there are

880
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 1: some species of rattlesnakes like Massasauga's and um New Mexico

881
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: originals rattle snakes, which and there would and there would

882
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: be certain states, certain species in certain states that are

883
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: state protected like for example, eastern diamondback rattlesnakes in North

884
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: Carolina UM would be protected heavily at a state level,

885
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: or timber rattle snakes if you go up into somebody

886
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: Northeastern states. So I just know the laws around it,

887
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: um typically if if it's in your yard in most states,

888
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: even states were you know, say killing a rattlesnake would

889
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: be the equivalent of like shooting a robin with a shotgun.

890
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 1: You know, it's a wildlife violation, but it's not. You're not, like,

891
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: it's not some big endangered species type violation, even in

892
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: those states. Typically, I can't speak for anyone, but I

893
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: would expect that in most states, most wardens, um wouldn't

894
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: persecute that type of thing. Yeah, I don't know some places. Um,

895
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: they could in some states depending on the laws. Pretty

896
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: sure in Arkansas rattlesnakes are protected. Yeah, I'm not sure

897
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: the exact laws. In Arkansas and Georgia, they're not. They're

898
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: like a precluded species. So um, you know, anything you

899
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: want with as many ratlesnext pipe your house with their skins.

900
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: But we're working on changing something. We just want rattle

901
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: snakes record and not. I'm not trying to say no

902
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 1: rattlesnakes should ever die. I'm just trying to say they

903
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: should be considered wildlife like so um. But my personal

904
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: philosophy is well, first I'll tell you I live in

905
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: a very rural part of these mountains, and I have

906
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 1: venomous snakes in my yard. Every year. I have snakes

907
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 1: that try to use places on my house as their

908
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: gestation sites. Yeah. Yeah, But I also I have dogs,

909
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: and um, I have two young kids that love to

910
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: run around barefoot. And I've had one of my bird dogs,

911
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: you know, get a copper head bite to the face

912
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: for example. UM. And so I'll tell you I don't

913
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: want them in my front yard either. Um. Of course

914
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: I have the expertise, you know, I can physically move Yeah,

915
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: I move them back into the forest. Um. And in

916
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: many places, especially as you get into a suburban environment

917
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: like that, there are groups, whether it be government group

918
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: or like wildlife rescues that provide those types of services

919
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: that yes, I would Um. And that's just a very

920
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: localized thing that I can't speak to you outside of

921
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: my area. But UM, that's something that that could be

922
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: researched in the in the places that everybody lives. UM.

923
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to tell you what to do

924
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: or what not to do. I'll tell you to look

925
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: at the laws. I will tell you that that's I

926
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: don't want a snake in my front yard biting my

927
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 1: child or my dog. And I can understand, you know,

928
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: translocation or doing something to deal with that animal within

929
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, the confines of the law. And I'll leave

930
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: that at that. But but and and I don't have

931
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,479
Speaker 1: issue with that. What I have issue with is when

932
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: people go into these beautiful wild places and they, you know,

933
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: say they're out in the Ozark National Forest miles anyone,

934
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: they see a rattlesnake and and they take it upon

935
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: themselves to to kill this animal. And and you're going

936
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: into its home. Um, all you have to do is

937
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: walk around that animal. You'll never see it again in

938
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: your life. And I've been called out before because as

939
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm an avid hunter. I mean I hunt

940
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: a lot, and I've hunted all over the country other countries.

941
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: Um and and people call me out on that. But

942
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: there's a big difference. We manage our game species using

943
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 1: a biological approach that that we've set up goals to

944
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,959
Speaker 1: maintain their populations over a long periods of time. Whether

945
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,800
Speaker 1: it's you can only harvest a mail of a given species,

946
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: you have certain season dates, certain places you can hunt.

947
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: It's managed very intensively. But with snakes, it's not managed

948
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: like that. And in my mind, if we go into

949
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: wild places and kill every venomous snake that we see,

950
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: but at the same time, we're not taking the biological

951
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: information we have about those animals and sending up a

952
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: management plan to do that. Um, and I can't support it.

953
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: It's it's it'd be like it would be like if

954
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:13,919
Speaker 1: it was open season on bears, you know, I mean

955
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: a year round. I'm gonna go in the woods in

956
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: these everyone. I'm gonna see every kill everyone I see,

957
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: and and people would be up in arms about it.

958
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: And so I get up in arms about people who

959
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: go do that because rattlesnakes UM, whether you like them

960
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: or not, are are an important component to many ecosystems

961
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: across North America, and just like any other animal, if

962
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: you take them out of that equation, there's going to

963
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: be a lot of um impacts. And there's social values

964
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: and aesthetic that there's a lot of values to snakes

965
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 1: and the and the true risk posed to people is

966
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: so so minuscule, you know. So later today I'm gonna

967
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: get back to my office, UM and I do need to.

968
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: I need to take a couple of rattlesnakes out and

969
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,959
Speaker 1: clean their cages. I'm gonna so later today I'm gonna

970
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 1: be handling a six foot giant diamondback rattlesnake. I'm gonna

971
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: be handling multiple timber rattle snakes and by far the

972
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: most dangerous thing I will have done today is driven

973
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: here to see you. So it's it's it's a like

974
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: a horrific thing that that scares people. Um, I'm kind

975
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: of going on a tangent or apologize, but I'm on

976
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: the exact same page. I would encourage people to figure

977
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: out what to do when the snakes are in your home.

978
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: What's the best way for you to deal with that,

979
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: because there are avenues out there. And then I would

980
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: encourage people to leave the snakes alone when you're in

981
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: their home. Yeah. Absolutely, man, that's you know what you said,

982
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: that that snakes have cultural value and wildlife value. I

983
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: think what my dad captured years ago, I mean when

984
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,439
Speaker 1: I was just a boy in the eighties, was that

985
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: seeing a rattlesnake means it was a good day, you know,

986
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean going to a wild place, and it would

987
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: it would have been classified with a seeing a bear

988
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: or finding a big shed horn in the mountains, or

989
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: seeing a rattlesnake or seeing a hornet snap. I'm thinking

990
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 1: of the things as a kid that would just have

991
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: made something exciting, and a rattlesnake would have probably been

992
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: at the top of that list, specially well, he sounds

993
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 1: like a smart great man. So um, yeah, it's when

994
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: I moved here. You know, I'd lived in the Rockies,

995
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: and I'd lived very close to grizzly bear country and

996
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: mountain lions and wolves and and a lot of these

997
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: big predators. And we had rattlesnakes obviously, and and I

998
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: knew it was a wild place. And I kind of

999
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: like that idea. I mean, don't get me wrong, I

1000
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: don't want to get attacked by grizzly bear, but I

1001
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: like that concept when you're out in the woods, there

1002
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: are things in nature that can hurt you. There are

1003
01:00:55,320 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 1: predatory animals. And when I moved here, it seemed like

1004
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 1: somewhat of a benign landscape to some degree. But it

1005
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 1: made me feel really good that we did still have

1006
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: some animals like bears and like rattlesnakes, something dangerous A mystery. Yeah.

1007
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: I I do not want to get bit by a rattlesnake.

1008
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: I don't want any of my friends fail. I don't

1009
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,880
Speaker 1: want anybody to get bit by a rattlesnake. But um,

1010
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: they're an important component out there, and if you're smart

1011
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: and snake country, your chances are incredibly low, you know,

1012
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: in all the tromping around that I've done, which you know,

1013
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: my upbringing would have been similar to so many people

1014
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: that just spent their whole lives beating around in places

1015
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: that their mom's probably told them not to go one time.

1016
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: And I have gone out of my way to intentionally

1017
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: catch snakes more in my younger years than now. Only

1018
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: one time have I been struck at and actually hit

1019
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: by venomous snake. I've been a bit by lots of

1020
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 1: non poisonous, but it was because I was messing with them. Uh.

1021
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: But one time, on total accident, I stepped on about

1022
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: a fourteen inch copper head in October, mid October, which

1023
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: usually it's cold enough that they're not out that much,

1024
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: and stepped on him just like mid body, and um, well,

1025
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: I may have been more if he was. It wasn't

1026
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 1: a big snake anyway. I just remember just looking down

1027
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: about the time I stepped on him, and he just

1028
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: reached around and just tapped my boot. And I was

1029
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: wearing a big pair of rubber boots. There was no

1030
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,440
Speaker 1: way that it was going to penetrate that, But it

1031
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: was kind of a marker in my mind that of

1032
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: all these years, that's the one time if I'd have

1033
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: been barefoot, I would have been in trouble. But how

1034
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: often am I barefoot in the woods? Never? So, I mean,

1035
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: you know a lot of exposure, have you ever been not?

1036
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 1: I mean, like totally on accident bit by I had.

1037
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: First of all, I've never been invenimated by a venomous snake.

1038
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: And I've literally no exaggeration, I've probably had ten thousand

1039
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: handling experiences. And I spend an incredible amount of time

1040
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: in the woods like you, both hunting, fishing, hiking, recreating

1041
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: as well as for work. Over the years, I spent

1042
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: a lot of time out looking for snakes. I've never

1043
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: been invenomated. Um the closest well, I'll tell you, by far,

1044
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: the most dangerous thing that you can do with a

1045
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 1: rattlesnake is try to handle it. And I don't care

1046
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: if you're trying to catch it and bring it to

1047
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: show somebody, if you're trying to kill it, and to

1048
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: do that, you're getting real close. It's when you engage

1049
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,040
Speaker 1: the rattlesnake in one way or another that's when things

1050
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: get dangerous for you. UM. So I've handled, as I mentioned,

1051
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: probably had ten thousand is handling events, and UM, I

1052
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: will say, I won't go through all the stories, but

1053
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: I've probably had four or five very close encounters while

1054
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: handling a snake, but still never was bid. UM. I

1055
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,720
Speaker 1: was struck by a timber rattlesnake a few years ago. Now,

1056
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 1: I was back in a real remote area, the southern

1057
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: Anta Hallo Wilderness, UM, and I was doing rattlesnake surveys

1058
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: in the summer, looking for these gestation sites where the

1059
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: females give birth and anyway, so I was, but I

1060
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 1: had finished the survey and I was on a mission.

1061
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: I had miles to get out of there, and so

1062
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 1: I was just hiking and I had I had come

1063
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: up to a giant, old, old growth tree that had

1064
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: died and fallen over, and so there was only a

1065
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 1: two or three feet of room underneath it, and so

1066
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: to stay on the trail, and I didn't want to

1067
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 1: change my pace. I'm like run through the woods. I'm walking,

1068
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:47,720
Speaker 1: and so I just quickly dropped down my hands and

1069
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: knees and kind of do like a bear shuffle under it.

1070
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: Real quick and stand up. And there were a bunch

1071
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 1: of chestnut oak saplings covering the trail on the other

1072
01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: side of it. And my first step, once I out

1073
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: my hands off the ground, my first step was right

1074
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: on a very large four foot ish timber rattle snake.

1075
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 1: And I felt something squishy, and I looked down and

1076
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: I hear the rattle, and then I launch in the air,

1077
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: and that snake at the same time turns and strikes

1078
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,959
Speaker 1: me in the shin and um, and I got away

1079
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: from the snake. And and luckily I was wearing snake gaters. Yeah,

1080
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: because you were on a snake. And I often wear

1081
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 1: them hunting, especially turkey season. Um, there's certain times I

1082
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: wear them, certain times, but you know, I wear these

1083
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 1: real lightweight they're called turtleskin snake gaiters. I bring them

1084
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: all over the world. I'll roll them up and bring

1085
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: them to the Amazon or all flying to the Frank

1086
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 1: Church in Idaho with them. And they're just real convenient.

1087
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: They work well. I have the proof. I've got the

1088
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: photos where you can see on my leg you can

1089
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: see the twin venom marks and the drops coming down

1090
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: that we took that picture right after it. So that

1091
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 1: was like and that would have been life threatening because

1092
01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 1: I was, Um, I was miles from the truck. Well,

1093
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 1: so that brings up I've got two main two questions.

1094
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: I want to talk to talk about rattlesnake populations. I

1095
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: want to tell you this before I forget it. And

1096
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: I also want to talk about what snake venom does

1097
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: to you, Like how like would that have would you

1098
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: have died back there if you were four miles from

1099
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: the truck and by yourself and got bit in a

1100
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: pretty vital spot. Um, So those two questions, you can

1101
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: answer the venomous part first, Like, well, first of all,

1102
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: let me say this my anecdotal understanding of like a

1103
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 1: copper head. Like I've always felt like if I get

1104
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 1: by a copper head, it wouldn't be that big of

1105
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 1: a deal. I mean, you know, just not that big

1106
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:54,959
Speaker 1: of a deal. I've even had the I've even heard

1107
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: of people not going to the hospital when they got

1108
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: bit by a copper head, which is probably extra. But

1109
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 1: you you hear that rattlesnake venom is more potent in

1110
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 1: copyright venom? Is that true? So if you're comparing a

1111
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: timber radolsnake and a copperhead, yes, that is true. So

1112
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 1: the first thing I'll tell you, well, the first thing

1113
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you is that with snake bites in the

1114
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: United States that to of snake bites, the snakes don't

1115
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: actually inject venom. We call them dry bites. So snakes.

1116
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: First thing I'll tell you about venom. Snakes have venom

1117
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: for a reason. Snakes did not evolve venom to kill people.

1118
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 1: So not every time they strike is venom. They can

1119
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: control the delivery of venom to some degree. And again

1120
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: they they need it for other things. They use it

1121
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: for feeding, and they're they're gonna it kills things. That

1122
01:07:57,440 --> 01:08:00,479
Speaker 1: allows them to not have to wrestle with their prey.

1123
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: They inject venom, they're only in touch with it for

1124
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 1: a split second, and then that prey runs off and dies.

1125
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing, what I find very interesting, is

1126
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:10,959
Speaker 1: that then the snake goes and has to find that prey,

1127
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: which could be very difficult. Yeah, and and and the

1128
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:22,080
Speaker 1: snakes are following a scent trail, but they're not they're

1129
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,200
Speaker 1: not following the mammal's scent trail because there's mammal trails everywhere.

1130
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: It's been done in the labs many times. They are

1131
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 1: actually tracking the scent of their own venom to find

1132
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:38,360
Speaker 1: that prey item. And then most venoms have the characteristics

1133
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about some different species are in a minute,

1134
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: but most venoms in this part of the world have

1135
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: some characteristics of like digestive enzymes, and so it's digesting

1136
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: the prey from the inside out while the snake is

1137
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 1: digesting it from the outside end. So it allows them

1138
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: to eat bigger prey items that would normally take a

1139
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 1: lot longer to digest, so they need the venomous point.

1140
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 1: And of bites on humans are dry bites, so you

1141
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 1: start with that. To get bit by a poisonous snake

1142
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: and it's not a venomous snake. I just get by

1143
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: a venomous snake and you don't have that much trouble

1144
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 1: and you think you're like superhuman because it didn't hurt

1145
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: you that bad. But it was a dry bite. Yes,

1146
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,680
Speaker 1: does that happen? UM. I don't know about someone feeling superhuman.

1147
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: But if I was out hunting then got bit by

1148
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 1: a snake and I was just like, I don't worry

1149
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 1: about it, um, i'd feel pretty cool. But the other

1150
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: thing I tell you about venoms before we talk about

1151
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: like saying a copper head and timber rattle snake is

1152
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: that they very really incredibly so they're very these diverse

1153
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 1: cocktails and they're you know, different species have can have

1154
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 1: very very different venoms that impact the body in different ways,

1155
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: and even within a species. The timber rattle snake is

1156
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,599
Speaker 1: a good example. You can go to different parts of

1157
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: the species range and the venom has different properties, would

1158
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 1: be more say toxic in some cases and and others.

1159
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 1: For example, you know there's a part of the range

1160
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 1: kind of like southwest Georgia and Florida Alabama where um,

1161
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, that they have a lot of

1162
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 1: very kind of neurotoxic um, which means it affects your

1163
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: nervous system. So a lot of snakes, especially coral snakes,

1164
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 1: are one. But then a lot of snakes and other

1165
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: parts of the world have these neurotoxins which can be

1166
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 1: very deadly because they do things like your body can't

1167
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: tell your heart to beat or your lungs to your

1168
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: diaphragm to to fill your lungs. So um. But in general,

1169
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:50,240
Speaker 1: this is a gross generalization, but most rattle snakes, not all,

1170
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 1: Some have more neurotoxic components are cited toxins, but most

1171
01:10:55,439 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: are Most of the venoms are kind of like digestive

1172
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: enzymes in North America, but they vary in toxicity. So

1173
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 1: you're right, a copper head is a very minor bite

1174
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: as compared and it's because of the it's because of

1175
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: the venom, not because of the size of the animal.

1176
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 1: Because that's what I thought too, is a is a

1177
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: rattlesnide just injecting more venom than a copperhead because it's bigger.

1178
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: So drop for drop, the rattlesnake venom would be more toxic.

1179
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,639
Speaker 1: That answers my question. Most rattlesnakes would be bigger than

1180
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 1: most copper heads, so actually physically have more venom as well. Okay,

1181
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,560
Speaker 1: so you're back in the mountains. You know, in this

1182
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 1: part of the world, it's hard to get four or

1183
01:11:38,280 --> 01:11:41,000
Speaker 1: five miles from the road. Two miles from the road,

1184
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,720
Speaker 1: you know, thirty forty minute tough walk. You get bit

1185
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: by a rattlesnake, how long do you I mean, you're

1186
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:55,040
Speaker 1: not going to die from that? You might? Really you couldn't. Yeah,

1187
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: you might. Uh So, first of all, let's rule out

1188
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: anything that would be very um rare, like an allergy

1189
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 1: or something like if you had an allergy to something

1190
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:08,080
Speaker 1: and you go into ana fylactic shock directed typically people

1191
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 1: are actually had more allergies to the old anti venoms

1192
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 1: and would die from that. The new ones are better.

1193
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 1: But but anyway, so if you rule that out, just um,

1194
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,840
Speaker 1: a rattlesnake bite in a very remote area, UM, A

1195
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: timber rattlesnake bite, say in these mountains. Yes, it could

1196
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: be very very serious and and could be life threatening.

1197
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 1: Would it depend on where it hits you? Um? Certainly.

1198
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,240
Speaker 1: So that's I can't answer that question perfectly because there's

1199
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 1: so many girls. Where did it get you? Um? Did

1200
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: it inject venom right into like an artery or a vein?

1201
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: Did it go right into a muscle? Was it on

1202
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: your hand? Was it on your face? Um? How much

1203
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,600
Speaker 1: venom did it inject? There's a lot of But the

1204
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: one thing I can tell you is that even with

1205
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: a timber rattlesnake, if you get to the hospital, your

1206
01:12:53,439 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 1: chances of dying a little. But a timber rattlesnake is

1207
01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:01,719
Speaker 1: a life threatening bite potentially here because a copper head

1208
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:07,600
Speaker 1: is is um Uh, I would recommend anybody go to

1209
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: the hospital. But um, but I would recommend anybody goes

1210
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: to the hospital, but it's not as life threatening. I

1211
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,600
Speaker 1: don't know. For example, in Georgia, where we have a

1212
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:24,759
Speaker 1: lot of copper heads, I don't know of any records

1213
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 1: of anybody ever dying from a copper head. And somebody

1214
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 1: might correct me on that, but but it's it's not common,

1215
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:32,759
Speaker 1: whereas timber rattlesnakes are multiple during one of my county

1216
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,720
Speaker 1: a few years ago. So there are timber rattlesnakes from

1217
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:41,200
Speaker 1: a rattlesnake in your county, is that right? That's surprising

1218
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: to me. People die every early United States from rasley

1219
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: m Now why would we don't have to go too

1220
01:13:48,720 --> 01:13:51,520
Speaker 1: deep into this, but it seems to me like a rattlesnake,

1221
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 1: he's trying to kill critters, maybe as big as a

1222
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: rabbit to eat. Yeah, why would he need venom that

1223
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 1: would kill a two pound man? Uh, that's a that's

1224
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:04,480
Speaker 1: a good question, and I don't think I can answer exactly.

1225
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: But um, it's like he's shooting a three thirty eight

1226
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 1: on a on a on a squirrel hunt. Yeah, this

1227
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 1: would be that's a good analogy, but that this would

1228
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 1: be complete speculation. But again to me, it probably would

1229
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 1: get down to those feeding functions. Um, meaning whatever they're eating,

1230
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 1: they want to die relatively quickly because then they have

1231
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,479
Speaker 1: a greater chance of finding it. Also, there's a greater venom.

1232
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 1: Exact same thing if you shot a three on a

1233
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: squirrel hunt you just wanted to Yeah, and then um,

1234
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:37,720
Speaker 1: also you know, the more of that venom that isn't

1235
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: that animal's body, the quicker it's going to digest, so

1236
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 1: you can theory eat bigger meals. Okay, so it's that

1237
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: venom is working from the inside out digesting that just

1238
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: turning its insides and the mush. But that's speculation. I

1239
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,040
Speaker 1: can't speak to the evolution that. But in general, I

1240
01:14:54,080 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 1: will say snakes in North America, Um, their venoms are

1241
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: are for feeding, they're not for defense. But we do

1242
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 1: have like for example, if you take like you heard

1243
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 1: of helo monsters in the Southwest, these these lizards, these venoms,

1244
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 1: that's a defensive venom. I have. I have one of

1245
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 1: these in my office. And um, you know, it's funny

1246
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: people say that. People say that, you know, you're not

1247
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: going to die from a heel monster bite unless you

1248
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,320
Speaker 1: happen to have a gun. Nearby because it's it's a

1249
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: defensive venom, meaning they as they get it into you,

1250
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 1: they don't have fangs, but as they chew on you

1251
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 1: and it kind of comes out of their gums. But

1252
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: as they get it into you, it's immediate, extreme pain.

1253
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 1: Because it's functioning in defense. It's gonna work quick credit

1254
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: and be like, oh my god, this is not a

1255
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 1: good thing to eat. Um. But most snake venoms in

1256
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:51,120
Speaker 1: North America are for feeding, and that that makes a

1257
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 1: ton of sense. And your first question to your the

1258
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 1: venom question second thing, and well we can kind of

1259
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 1: end on this. So when I'm hunting out in the mountains, um, well,

1260
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 1: first of all, let me the question is about how

1261
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,000
Speaker 1: many rattlesnakes are on the side of the mountain. But

1262
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,560
Speaker 1: let me tell you this first, um part one of

1263
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:17,479
Speaker 1: the regions that I hunt is very rocky, like very rocky. Um.

1264
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: There's old remnants of when the mount the Washtall mountains

1265
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,519
Speaker 1: were super high and there were avalanches, and that we

1266
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 1: have these things they call rock glaciers, which will be

1267
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:35,160
Speaker 1: totally forested, but you'll come into a big opening that

1268
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 1: is nothing but boulders half the size of your car.

1269
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: No trees and it's it's it's remnants of avalanche shoots

1270
01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 1: when the mountains were way taller. Okay, so just rock piles,

1271
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 1: no trees. Um. One time we were we were actually

1272
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 1: baiting bears in a place that we had to walk

1273
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: backpack in bear bait, and uh just so happened. We

1274
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 1: couldn't get there during the daytime, so we had to

1275
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: hike back in there at night. And me and my

1276
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 1: old buddy James Lawrence, there was a long walk back

1277
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: in there, hiked in and we had to cross two

1278
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 1: rock glaciers to get to this real secluded bear bait

1279
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 1: on private land. It was a piece of landlocked private land.

1280
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 1: And man, we don't see a lot of rattlesnakes. I mean,

1281
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: you just don't see them. Even though I think we're

1282
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 1: in really good rattlesnake country, you don't see him a lot. Buddy,

1283
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: we saw rattlesnakes at night on those rock glaciers, um,

1284
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: multiple snakes, and we were when the way we described

1285
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:38,719
Speaker 1: thought about it was we had just taken a straight

1286
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 1: line probably three quarters of a mile through the woods

1287
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:48,519
Speaker 1: with what are headlights could shine on the ground, and

1288
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 1: we saw we saw two rattlesnakes, which was a big deal.

1289
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,240
Speaker 1: I mean, we see two rattlesnakes a year, and so

1290
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 1: on this walk in we saw two rattlesnakes and they

1291
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 1: were up on top of these rocks just doing their thing.

1292
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 1: So my question is our question was, well, how many

1293
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 1: rattlesnakes are there? And we started doing the math. You know,

1294
01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: so if we if we walked three quarters of a

1295
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,560
Speaker 1: mile and could see ten feet and there were two rattlesnakes,

1296
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: so that times five hundred for the side of that mountain,

1297
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 1: does that mean there's a thousand rattlesnakes between here and there?

1298
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:27,000
Speaker 1: Probably not. So I would say, like everything, that's very complex,

1299
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be able to answer exactly, but I'll

1300
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,320
Speaker 1: let me start out kind of in you know, the

1301
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 1: blue ridge here, which is probably somewhat similar to the

1302
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 1: ozarks and the washingtas. So how do you pronounce it?

1303
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 1: Might pronounce me washed You did away? Not like that

1304
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:46,719
Speaker 1: other guys Steve Ronella guy, okay, because it the Oa cheetahs.

1305
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 1: So um. So, first of all, where I live and

1306
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm guessing it's probably similar where you live. That I

1307
01:18:55,840 --> 01:19:00,040
Speaker 1: might be wrong, is that copper heads are common so

1308
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 1: copper heads are one of the most common snakes where

1309
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: I live, and I'm assuming they're fairly common. Um, so

1310
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: that's the most commonly encountered venomous snake where I live,

1311
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:13,080
Speaker 1: and in many places where both timber rattle snakes and

1312
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 1: copperheads live. UM with both of them, but in particular

1313
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 1: with timber rattle snakes, there's there's as we talked about

1314
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 1: with other things, there's a lot of variables. So first thing,

1315
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you that people just see snakes and

1316
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 1: they think of them as like this, like vermin. It's

1317
01:19:29,720 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 1: like they don't they are everywhere, and they don't have

1318
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: a biology. Rattlesnakes have a very interesting ecology and where

1319
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 1: they are at what time of year, and for what reasons. Um.

1320
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:49,639
Speaker 1: So uh, in most cases, I would expect that where

1321
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 1: you're hunting and where I live that rattlesnakes are not

1322
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: as common as copper heads are. Probably are places where

1323
01:19:56,520 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: they're there are but m and and they're using very

1324
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 1: particular places at very particular times of the year and

1325
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:09,960
Speaker 1: just generally part of the year, and some of the

1326
01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: snakes some of the year. So I'm gonna try to

1327
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 1: just very quickly but so these animals are are what

1328
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:21,400
Speaker 1: we call ectotherms, or you commonly hear the term cold blood.

1329
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:23,800
Speaker 1: Scientists don't like the word cold blood is kind of

1330
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:29,600
Speaker 1: like poisonous for sevenomous. But so they're ectotherms like we're endotherms,

1331
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,360
Speaker 1: and all that means endo is inside we produce our

1332
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: heat physiologically. Snakes get their heat from the outside world.

1333
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: So k, yeah, a lot of animals do fish insects, um.

1334
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 1: But anyway, so that means in the winter they need

1335
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 1: to go somewhere um and and typically underground, oftentimes in

1336
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,519
Speaker 1: the types of place as you're describing. So and sometimes

1337
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:53,920
Speaker 1: those will be kind of communal. So you have a

1338
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,000
Speaker 1: good number of snakes in a certain place, um so

1339
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 1: if you are in the well, let me let me

1340
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 1: finish this then. So then they come out in the spring,

1341
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:05,840
Speaker 1: depending where you are, and a group of them go

1342
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 1: out to forage. So males and non gravied females, females

1343
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 1: that are not going to give birth that year. Timber

1344
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,640
Speaker 1: rattlesnakes in most places would not give birth every year.

1345
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,480
Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be up to four or five years pregnancies.

1346
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:22,960
Speaker 1: So those animals that are going to feed the males

1347
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 1: and the non females. They go out typically in a

1348
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 1: usual pretty linear like a true migration like a duck

1349
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:32,960
Speaker 1: or an elk would make long distance movements relatively linear

1350
01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 1: at a relatively high rate. And they go out and

1351
01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:39,360
Speaker 1: then they set up these other not staying together. Um,

1352
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:41,680
Speaker 1: they're just kind of go on the side. They're not

1353
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:43,560
Speaker 1: going out in like a pack. No. I mean you

1354
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:47,320
Speaker 1: can find snakes together. For a group of snakes like

1355
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:49,680
Speaker 1: a like a you know, like a covey of quaid. Yeah,

1356
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:51,800
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I don't know the answer. I

1357
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:53,720
Speaker 1: should know the answer to it if anybody did so,

1358
01:21:54,200 --> 01:21:56,599
Speaker 1: I should look at I don't know because I've never

1359
01:21:57,400 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 1: I've never heard of a group of snakes like what

1360
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Yeah. Um, so, so these animals go out,

1361
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 1: but typic they're going in all kinds of directions and

1362
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 1: they're finding a foraging ground and they spend most of

1363
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 1: their summer in a in a core feeding ground, just

1364
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:14,160
Speaker 1: like a wolf would move down to a winter range

1365
01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 1: and it would be where there was a lot of

1366
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 1: rodents and at that. Okay. And then the other group

1367
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:21,800
Speaker 1: are the gravid females, the ones that are going to

1368
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:25,920
Speaker 1: give birth that year. Gravid gravit grab it with a

1369
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: T with a D gravi it and David. That means

1370
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:34,880
Speaker 1: the ability to give birth that yeares for that year.

1371
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 1: So and they go typically a shorter distance. These other

1372
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:42,639
Speaker 1: snakes can go miles to those feed grounds. The these

1373
01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,640
Speaker 1: gravit females go typically a shorter distance, and they go

1374
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 1: to very particular places. It's usually rock on rock, it's

1375
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 1: oftentimes exposed to the sun. Basically, they're going somewhere where

1376
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,320
Speaker 1: they can keep a high body temperature day and night.

1377
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 1: They can shuttle in and out keep a high body temperature,

1378
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 1: and then at night that rock that they're on has

1379
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:06,080
Speaker 1: a very certain geometry and um and that rock is

1380
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 1: giving off heat at night, so they can also keep

1381
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,479
Speaker 1: their body temperature high at night and they're finishing again

1382
01:23:11,520 --> 01:23:14,879
Speaker 1: their ectotherms. So their body temperature changes with the environment,

1383
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,400
Speaker 1: and and everything our body does changes with temperature. We

1384
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 1: just don't think about it because we're always the same temperature. So,

1385
01:23:21,680 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, to speed up the development of a baby,

1386
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: or to digest food or whatever it might be, you

1387
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:29,559
Speaker 1: raise your body temperature if you're a snake. So these

1388
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: females go there, so even in the summer when it's warm,

1389
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 1: even the summer when so, I mean they need to

1390
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,479
Speaker 1: they need rocks to stay warm, even when it's getting

1391
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 1: down to seventy degrees at night and ninety degrees during

1392
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:46,000
Speaker 1: the day. I always thought the warm temperature stuff would

1393
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: have just been at these fringe times, like in the

1394
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 1: spring and fall. When do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah,

1395
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,320
Speaker 1: it's well, so, first of all, these gravit females are

1396
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:58,599
Speaker 1: maintaining relatively high body temperatures for a snake. I can't

1397
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 1: remember the zack numbers off top of my head. Um.

1398
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:04,920
Speaker 1: But and certainly during the day in a warm climate,

1399
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,880
Speaker 1: these gravid females, you know, they're gonna come out warm

1400
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:09,640
Speaker 1: up to a good temperature, but they're gonna have some

1401
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,680
Speaker 1: type of retreat. They don't have to warm up if

1402
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: it's eighty degrees air temperature at night, that's my question.

1403
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 1: Or do they want to be out in the sun

1404
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:21,800
Speaker 1: on a nine, Well, that rock is going to be

1405
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,800
Speaker 1: giving off more heat, so like by the morning, that

1406
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 1: rock is going to be relatively cool. And if they

1407
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 1: stand or that, they're not gonna warm as quickly. They

1408
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 1: can go sit out in that sun coming up, get

1409
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: warm up, and then they can move into the shade.

1410
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't say exactly what they do in

1411
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:40,840
Speaker 1: terms of each snake might be slightly different, but they're

1412
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: what they're doing is their thermoregulating or they're regulating their temperature,

1413
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 1: and their goal is to stay high. And if that

1414
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 1: means sitting in the sun at a particular time, great,

1415
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 1: if that means going into shade um. And then in

1416
01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: mountainous environments, typically it's rock that gives that at night,

1417
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 1: but there are other places you're going to, like the

1418
01:24:57,760 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 1: coastal plaine stuff. First of all, there's not a lot

1419
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,800
Speaker 1: of but oftentimes they're using stump poles in other areas um.

1420
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 1: And some of it may have to do with exactly

1421
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:10,080
Speaker 1: what you're saying. So anyways, So and then late in

1422
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 1: the season, the birthing season and the mating season for

1423
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 1: timber rattlesnakes is actually at the same time, which seems

1424
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:18,639
Speaker 1: kind of odd, but I've told you that not all

1425
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 1: different exactly. And then they store the sperm because if

1426
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:25,120
Speaker 1: you think about then they're going to go back into hibernation,

1427
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:28,120
Speaker 1: so they store the sperms like delayed implantation, like a

1428
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: bear so the females are developing these follicles over long

1429
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 1: periods of time, and then they store the sperm. They

1430
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 1: go into hibernation the year that they're gonna give birth.

1431
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 1: Those gravid females like cam when they come out, they

1432
01:25:42,160 --> 01:25:46,960
Speaker 1: ovulate and they fertilize those follicles. So they're storing the sperm.

1433
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 1: They're developing these follicles. There's I got the bundle of

1434
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 1: energy um inside of them, and then they're fertilizing them

1435
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:59,360
Speaker 1: that year they're gonna give birth. Fascinating. Slightly different than bears,

1436
01:25:59,439 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, and that their bread at a certain

1437
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:08,360
Speaker 1: time the yeah, yeah, it's it is fascinating. So my

1438
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 1: whole point in telling you that we're talking about populations,

1439
01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,360
Speaker 1: My whole point and telling you that is that there,

1440
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:18,920
Speaker 1: depending where and when you are, you have really high

1441
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 1: chances of seeing good numbers of snakes or very little

1442
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 1: chances of seeing snakes. So, for example, if you are

1443
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:27,920
Speaker 1: at one of these overwintering sites in the spring or fall,

1444
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,439
Speaker 1: when they're going in or coming out, they'll typically linger

1445
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 1: there for a while for a week two weeks. Make

1446
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 1: sure things are right, and if you're there at the

1447
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,599
Speaker 1: right time, you could see a lot of snakes at once.

1448
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:39,559
Speaker 1: If you go out into these foraging grounds or if

1449
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 1: you're in these migration corridors, your chances of seeing snakes

1450
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:44,880
Speaker 1: are very little to know, and you certainly could bump

1451
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:47,960
Speaker 1: into one, but it'd be yeah, there's one sitting near

1452
01:26:47,960 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 1: a tree foraging if you go to these gestation rocks,

1453
01:26:53,320 --> 01:26:56,080
Speaker 1: and I should also say that all snakes, usually at

1454
01:26:56,120 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 1: least once a year, also go to similar rocks to

1455
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:01,880
Speaker 1: shed their skin. If you're at these places, you also

1456
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: stand a high chance of seeing a good number of snakes. Um.

1457
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:08,879
Speaker 1: And then so then you you you broaden your scale

1458
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 1: a little bit. And there are certainly places where there

1459
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 1: are good rattlesnake populations and places where there are not.

1460
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 1: So this particular ridge you were on might be a

1461
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: relatively robust rattlesnake population, and so those might have been

1462
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:23,760
Speaker 1: foraging snakes, or you might have been relatively close to

1463
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 1: one of these fish. And the fishing analogy of nine

1464
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 1: of the fish may live in ten percent of the

1465
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 1: water something like that, like so that there's not a yeah,

1466
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 1: it would be false to think like what we were doing,

1467
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:41,160
Speaker 1: like that calculation that you did is totally, highly completely inaccurate,

1468
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,800
Speaker 1: and I would we would have to be studying that

1469
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,639
Speaker 1: population you're in to understand what those snakes you saw

1470
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:50,880
Speaker 1: we're doing. But but in general, I can tell you

1471
01:27:51,880 --> 01:27:56,479
Speaker 1: there are probably less rattlesnakes on the landscape than most

1472
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 1: people with a fear of rattlesnakes would envision. But all

1473
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 1: so tell you that most of us who spend any

1474
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,640
Speaker 1: time in the woods have probably walked by many rattlesnakes

1475
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:08,559
Speaker 1: that we never knew were there, We never knew were there,

1476
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:11,680
Speaker 1: that some of the pictures of them are amazing. So

1477
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of radio telemetry studies on various

1478
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:17,600
Speaker 1: species of rattlesnakes, and it is amazing when you go

1479
01:28:17,760 --> 01:28:20,599
Speaker 1: to find them. I mean, I can know I've had

1480
01:28:20,760 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 1: transmitters in a snake and I'm standing here with technicians,

1481
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 1: but I have a technician standing where you are, maybe

1482
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 1: a little bit further away, and for the listeners, that's

1483
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, let's say we're four feet but say four

1484
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: five to ten ft in between us, there's a little shrub.

1485
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:39,000
Speaker 1: We're looking for this snake. We know it's in this shrub,

1486
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,080
Speaker 1: and sometimes they're hidden and you can barely see them.

1487
01:28:42,160 --> 01:28:45,439
Speaker 1: I've had snakes multiple times. They're literally sprawled out and

1488
01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they just like appear to you.

1489
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 1: And I'm looking for a snake in like a five

1490
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:52,920
Speaker 1: foot square area and it's literally laying out in the

1491
01:28:53,000 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 1: middle of it, and I can't see it. And I

1492
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:57,680
Speaker 1: look at snakes almost every day. It's amazing. So my

1493
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:01,120
Speaker 1: point is is that, um, they have incredible camouflage. They

1494
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: hide quite a bit um so most of the snakes

1495
01:29:04,160 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 1: in the landscape we don't see. They really don't want

1496
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:09,679
Speaker 1: anything to do with us. So unless we start messing

1497
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:12,640
Speaker 1: with them, they're typically not going to start rattling. This

1498
01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 1: is all just fascinating to me. Last question we got

1499
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 1: we got to close age of rattlesnakes. How long can

1500
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:25,320
Speaker 1: I live rattlesnakes? Timber rattlesnakes. Probably most rattlesnakes will live

1501
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 1: longer than most people would think, So there strategy. I've

1502
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 1: already told you. They don't give birth every year. They

1503
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 1: are really what I would call a long lived capital breeder.

1504
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:40,920
Speaker 1: So a female rattlesnake needs to live her whole life,

1505
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,639
Speaker 1: which we now know of timber rattlesnakes in the wild

1506
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:49,120
Speaker 1: that are over fifty years old and she needs to

1507
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 1: live her whole life to potentially just give birth once

1508
01:29:52,120 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: twice three times depending on the situation, because it can

1509
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 1: take her ten years to each sectional maturity, depending where

1510
01:29:57,439 --> 01:29:59,800
Speaker 1: she is, say maybe up to five years in between

1511
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:05,600
Speaker 1: pregnancies and um. It's fascinating. So animals like that that

1512
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:09,960
Speaker 1: have that type of biology, they have evolved where they

1513
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 1: need they need to live a long time to achieve

1514
01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 1: their fitness. I heard you mentioned this on a podcast

1515
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 1: the other day. You essentially said what all animals and

1516
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:23,160
Speaker 1: what humans are trying to do success that's another thing

1517
01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:25,719
Speaker 1: you know, for fitness, we're all trying to produce offspring

1518
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:30,680
Speaker 1: that in turn will also pass on their genetics. And

1519
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:34,880
Speaker 1: so to achieve that, timber rattlesnake needs to live a

1520
01:30:34,960 --> 01:30:38,040
Speaker 1: very long life. So anything they're not adapted to dying

1521
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 1: once they're adults, the dye is babies, but once they're adults,

1522
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:43,799
Speaker 1: they're not adapted. So anything that kills them in between

1523
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,920
Speaker 1: a road, a shovel, a shotgun, a raptor that is

1524
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,200
Speaker 1: is not natural. They should have very very high survival.

1525
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:55,759
Speaker 1: So when you start killing adult rattlesnakes, their populations can divide,

1526
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 1: decline very quickly, So with rattlesnakes make it to the

1527
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:04,320
Speaker 1: kind of maturity. So would I remember that K adapted

1528
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: and are adapted type species K adapted would be a

1529
01:31:07,400 --> 01:31:09,920
Speaker 1: species that has a ton of offspring, but very few

1530
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 1: of them survive. Is that right? Opposite? But they are

1531
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: so like they would produce like tons of baby rattlesnakes,

1532
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 1: very few of them would survive to be five years old.

1533
01:31:22,760 --> 01:31:26,400
Speaker 1: I guess a rattlesnake would be so rattlesnake, they would

1534
01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:30,520
Speaker 1: reproduce relatively few times in their lives. They have relatively

1535
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:34,439
Speaker 1: few offspring five Okay, so I was thinking they had

1536
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:36,840
Speaker 1: a hundred. There are some snakes like some of your

1537
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:40,599
Speaker 1: pythons and stuff that, and then those babies have low survival,

1538
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:44,080
Speaker 1: but once after four or five years, their survival is

1539
01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:48,479
Speaker 1: much higher, and then that's catching them. They don't die.

1540
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:50,760
Speaker 1: But if they don't live, I don't know the exact number,

1541
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:52,960
Speaker 1: but if they don't live, we know they live over

1542
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 1: fifty So if they don't live a long life, their

1543
01:31:56,600 --> 01:31:59,640
Speaker 1: chances of replacing themselves in the wild very low. So

1544
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:02,719
Speaker 1: almost like that. They're not They're not going to decline overnight.

1545
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 1: They're not the best indicator, like we talked about amphibians

1546
01:32:05,320 --> 01:32:08,360
Speaker 1: are certain lizards. They're not gonna their populations aren't going

1547
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:11,960
Speaker 1: to decline overnight. But if you start killing the adults,

1548
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:16,240
Speaker 1: there's gonna be very little um kind of reproductive success

1549
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:18,679
Speaker 1: and their populations kind quickly, and a lot of people

1550
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:20,680
Speaker 1: might get back to a lot of the coral we're

1551
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:22,080
Speaker 1: talking about. A lot of people may take that as

1552
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 1: oh good, I can kill all the rattlesnakes. But from

1553
01:32:24,080 --> 01:32:27,560
Speaker 1: my perspective, that's a reason not to kill the rattlesnakes

1554
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 1: because we want them as a component. Well, ten years

1555
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:33,040
Speaker 1: from now, when that female is supposed to be given birth,

1556
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:36,080
Speaker 1: she's not because you killed her. You're not gonna fill

1557
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:39,280
Speaker 1: that until your kids are twenty years old and there's

1558
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,360
Speaker 1: no rattlesnakes on the mountain, and then her babies don't

1559
01:32:42,439 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 1: get born. But even those babies would have taken ten years.

1560
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:48,040
Speaker 1: And so it's the rattlesnakes play the long game. If

1561
01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:50,280
Speaker 1: you will rest mice play the short game. You kill

1562
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:52,400
Speaker 1: every mouse in your cabin, they're gonna be mice when

1563
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,639
Speaker 1: you get back to the time, you know, you kill

1564
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:58,760
Speaker 1: the one adult rattlesnake, you know, over time. There's it's funny.

1565
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 1: There's a lot of similarity. He's between the strategies of

1566
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:03,600
Speaker 1: a bear and a timber rattlesnake. They live in the

1567
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 1: same places you think about. A bear sleeps during the winter,

1568
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,400
Speaker 1: makes a living for eight or nine months a year.

1569
01:33:10,120 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 1: He has a delayed implantation. I mean rattlesnake is doing

1570
01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, that's they're both great animals. And hey,

1571
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 1: this has been fascinating, really has really has. Man, thanks

1572
01:33:20,960 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 1: a ton for meeting me over here. No problem. I've

1573
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:26,880
Speaker 1: only been better if you've brought a rattlesnake. I would

1574
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:29,679
Speaker 1: have and I would encourage you to uh to come

1575
01:33:29,760 --> 01:33:32,559
Speaker 1: to my office, and I would like to be very young.

1576
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 1: It's here, and we will I'll put a rattlesnake in

1577
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,720
Speaker 1: a safe manner in their hands, Yes, ma'am, I don't

1578
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:41,840
Speaker 1: tempt us. We'll do it. We'll do it. Well. Where

1579
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 1: can people find you? Yeah? So, um, I'm on all

1580
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:49,640
Speaker 1: all the social media platforms, Instagram and Facebook, and you

1581
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: can look me up there Christopher Jenkins and um Instagram,

1582
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm Dr D R C. L. Jenkins. And then but

1583
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 1: the place I would encourage every way to go is

1584
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:03,639
Speaker 1: what's really the important part, and that's the Oriented Sides website,

1585
01:34:03,640 --> 01:34:05,080
Speaker 1: and that's more about the animals. You don't want to

1586
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:07,640
Speaker 1: hear much about me, so um so check out the

1587
01:34:07,680 --> 01:34:11,639
Speaker 1: Oriented Side the website which is um at orient dot org,

1588
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 1: which is O R I A N n E dot org.

1589
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, I just want to thank you. It's been

1590
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 1: great to meet you in person. We've talked or at

1591
01:34:20,120 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 1: least corresponding quite a bit. And yeah, I'd just like

1592
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:26,120
Speaker 1: to leave everybody with that that concept. You know, when

1593
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:29,040
Speaker 1: you go out into these wild places where the bears live,

1594
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 1: the rattlesnakes live there too, and they belong there, you know,

1595
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 1: give him a break when you're out in those types

1596
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: of places. Yeah, thank you. Keep the wild places wild

1597
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 1: because that's where the rattlesnakes live and the bears. You

1598
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 1: almost said the tagline podcast on their own, without without

1599
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:48,400
Speaker 1: any instruction therehood, thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you,