WEBVTT - Christiane Amanpour 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:09.200 Oh, hang on your frozen Hello. Hello, Hello, how there 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.240 we go? You're back? Sorry, Minnie. I just don't worry. 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.240 It's live stuff. We've got a tape off clearance clearance 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.079 on the internet. That's great. Yeah, thank you so much 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.680 for doing this. I really really appreciate it. And you're welcome. Hello, 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.600 I'm Mini Driver. Welcome to Many Questions, Season two. I've 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:32.280 always loved Cruz's questionnaire. It was originally a nineteenth century 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.600 parlor game where players would ask each other thirty five 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.040 questions aimed at revealing the other player's true nature. It's 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.960 just the scientific method, really. In asking different people the 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.400 same set of questions, you can make observations about which 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:51.400 truths appeared to be universal. I love this discipline, and 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.240 it made me wonder, what if these questions were just 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.360 the jumping off point, what greater depths would be revealed 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.680 if I ask these questions as conversations daters with thought leaders, 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.800 and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. So I adapted 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.640 prus questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:11.760 I personally think a pertinent to a person's story. They 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.760 are when and where were you happiest? What is the 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:19.319 quality you like least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.000 defines love for you? What question would you most like answered, 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.600 What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most? 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.400 What would be your last meal? And can you tell 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.840 me something in your life that's grown out of a 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:37.360 personal disaster? And I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.560 ones that I am honored and humbled to have had 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:42.920 the chance to engage with. You may not hear their 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.360 answers to all seven of these questions. We've whittled it 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.320 down to which questions felt closest to their experience, or 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:55.200 the most surprising, or created the most fertile ground to connect. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.920 My guest today on many questions is journalist Christiane AmAm Poor. 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.880 I try not to be intimidated by the ideas I 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.279 might have about the extraordinary people I interview on the show, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.880 but knowing I was going to be speaking to one 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.600 of the great interviewers of the twenty one century definitely 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:17.360 gave me pause. I mean, Yessa Arafat hung up on 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.680 her and Bill Clinton, well, he snapped like a corner teenager. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.960 Christianne has won every major television journalism award interviewed every 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.320 single geopolitical player of the last twenty five years, and 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.600 her journalism made such an impact during the war in 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.320 the former Yugoslavia that she was made an honorary citizen 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:39.359 of Sara Jevo. It's really important to say that this 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:44.600 conversation was recorded before Russia started a war by invading Ukraine. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.880 The world looks very different today than it did three 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.400 weeks ago. But I think the observations Christiane makes about 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:56.160 conflict are eerily poignant. I really hope you enjoy this one. 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.360 My first question is can you tell me where and 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:07.160 when you were happiest? So I've thought about it a lot, 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.799 and I don't think there's ever for anybody one particular 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.520 place or space or time. I remember it in three steps, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.320 really I had, I would say indisputably one of the 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.240 happiest childhoods that I can even imagine, and that you know, 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.959 I've spoken to a lot of friends and asked them 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.720 and just you know, the osmosis and conversation as you're going, 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.280 you know, you understand how people have lived their lives 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.600 and what has made a difference and has shaped them. 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:38.720 And I don't think I've ever heard anybody say what 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.120 I feel, which is that I am the luckiest person 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.280 in the world. You know, I grew up in Iran 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.400 of an English father and adversion father. My mom Catholic, 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.840 my father Muslim. You know, it was a patriarchal and 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.200 a non democratic. It was a monarchy when I grew 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.320 up there. So it had all those things that could 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.240 have made it very stressful and difficult and hard and 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.280 et cetera. And instead of it was just for such 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.640 I don't even mean freedom to roam and to range 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.080 and to do all sorts of just freedom in my mind, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.080 in my heart, in my friendships. And with that freedom 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.320 came this most incredible amount of happiness. And of course 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.680 when you're young, you don't really realize that that's what 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:18.200 it is. You know, afterwards you get asked these questions. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.080 But when you're young, and when you're a kid, I 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.760 just remember everything being fun. Whether it was playing with 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.200 my friends, you know, in their houses or our house is, 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.320 whether it was playing sardines. You know what that is, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.320 hide and seek sardines everybody crams into one. That was 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:33.320 really fun, whether it was you know, in somebody's garden 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.839 and running around playing hide and seek, and especially riding horses. 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.400 That was my sport. I was five years old when 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.960 my mom and my dad literally put me on the 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.680 back of a very large horse, not a pony, not 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.560 a kid's game, and me and my best friend and 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.960 my sister, that's what we did. That was our sport, 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:56.160 not hockey or lacrosse or whatever. And that was really 0:04:56.200 --> 0:05:00.360 a source of happiness because you were sharing that finness 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.320 with each other. Your mother's were sitting in the corner 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.400 chit chatting and not being helicopter parents, but he knew 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:08.520 that they were there, so that was nice. The writing 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:13.000 instructor was this phenomenal Iranian guy who had been in 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.560 the Iranian military, in the cavalry. So he was a 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:18.839 brilliant old military man from the cavalry, and he was 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.880 really compassionate and fantastic. He loved us kids, and we 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:23.520 were girls, by the way, I remember, this is a 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.039 really girl's being taught how to be happy, how to 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.120 be brave, and he just you know, didn't let us 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.600 wimp out if we fell, if we had an accident 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.320 or whatever, you know, make sure he dusted us off. 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.320 But almost by the scruff of your neck, you'd be 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.520 picked up and put back on the horse, and that 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.159 developed a bond of love, a bond of courage, a 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.240 bond of connection with another living thing from a very 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.640 early age, and an understanding of how you have to, 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.840 you know, react and treat other living things, whether they're 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.359 animals or whether it's nature, whether it's people. And it 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.160 was just happiness. It was just a phenomenally happy childhood. 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.159 First of all, I'm so glad that you had a 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:07.200 wonderful childhood. Do you think that that wonderful beginning good 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.839 to you or gave you something that you were going 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:11.599 to be able to use in all of the places 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.279 of conflict that you would wind up that all of 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.799 the bloodshed and all of the disparity that you would 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.440 live in for so many years of your life. Do 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.880 you think that it gave you a base to be 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.960 able to do that. I really do think so. I 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.160 never really thought about it or dissected it, but I 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:32.359 do believe in retrospect that that is actually what happened. 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.000 That I grew up with phenomenal parents who gave me 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.880 unconditional love and support, never overly demanding in terms of 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.760 I want you to be a doctor or a banker, 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:43.800 or this or that we had to be moral, we 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.799 had to tell the truth, we had to be kind, 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.280 we had to have all those values. But we were 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.120 good enough as we were. So that was very very important. 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.360 And that and the lessons I took from my writing 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.960 instructor and from that period of my childhood, yes, gave 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:03.000 me that backbone and that structure to carry on without 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.479 really being conscious of it in the rest of my life, 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:07.640 which has been you know, I mean, it's an extreme 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.560 job that I've done, going to war zones, going to famines, 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.800 going to natural disasters, you know, doing all that kind 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.960 of stuff. Most people think you should run away, what 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.960 we journalists like to say, we run towards. But it 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:23.480 takes a really important lessons and gifts from your childhood, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.040 because I can tell you that so many of the 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.040 colleagues that I've come across have not been able to 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.560 stand it. The extreme nature, the horror, having to put 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.640 yourself out there all the time, has really crippled a 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.400 lot of people emotionally and has sent them somewhat off 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.240 the deep end. And I was just very fortunate that 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.320 I was able to come back to my family after 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:48.360 these terrible things, into a happy environment, into a connected 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.040 environment into an environment where I was able to talk, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.160 I was able to think of something other than being 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.320 on the road and being in the field. I could 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.520 swap that darkness for the light of being away in 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.320 this very happy and I keep using that word because 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.800 we're talking about happiness, happy personal environment, and that was 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.720 very important for me. The other thing that was really 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:12.120 important was growing up as the product of different ethnic groups, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.320 different nationalities, different religions. Given that my parents came from 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.880 two different parts of the world, allowed me to accept 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.560 everybody and everything. Everything was normal, nothing was other. So 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.960 I went to all these different places and I just 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.080 felt that they were just like me. You know, I 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.640 never felt that I was in any way different or 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.480 superior or inferior or anything like that. And that really 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.080 really helped me throughout my career because you know, with 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.080 this we live now in the extreme version of partisanship 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.360 and divisiveness, and you know, the other is such a 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.120 not just a scary concept because it isn't, but it's 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.200 used to scare people and to drum up fear and 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.680 hatred and loathing. And I had the opposite. I grew 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.160 up with the opposite lessons, and that really did see 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.320 me through my career because I obviously covered all these 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:02.280 ethnic conflicts and religious conflicts and battles. Yeah, the opposite 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.240 of happiness. Yeah, I mean really the apotheosis of happiness. 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.280 And so I was really happy doing my job. And 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.600 I give you a little anecdote. I was so happy 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:13.959 being a foreign correspondent. I really thought I'd died and 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.480 gone to heaven when I was made a foreign correspondent. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.400 And one day one of the key anchors at the time, presenters, 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.880 who was at CNN in Atlanta, she quit to go 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.800 somewhere else. And the president of the network, the most 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.920 phenomenal man, Tom Johnson. At the time, it was two 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.560 and I had just managed to get myself out of 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.000 headquarters and into the field and doing the job that 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.960 I really wanted to do. He called me up and 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.920 he thought he was being incredibly whatever rewarding and kind 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.120 to me and empowering, and he asked me if I 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.240 would come back to Atlanta and take the job of 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.360 this anchor presenter who had just left. Her name was 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.720 Catherine Cryer. Honestly, I burst into tears. I was so upset. 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.240 I didn't know what to do. And I know this 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.319 is meant to be a great promotion. But I'm so 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.839 happy here and this is what I wanted to do, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:00.839 and I don't want to come back to be an 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.560 anchor in Atlanta. I don't want to do it. But 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.400 what if I say that, then are you going to 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.920 fire me? Am I going to lose my you know, 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.800 my dream job? And he couldn't have been nicer. It 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:12.439 did take me a couple of days to get back 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:14.000 to him and tell him that I just couldn't do it. 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.880 A lot of crying went on and soul searching, and 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.400 I really expect him to say, well, thanks, Christianne. Well 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.240 if you can't do it and have to get somebody else, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:22.760 and you might as well pack your bag to leave. 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:26.120 Absolutely the contrary, he just embraced me and he said 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.800 that's great. So I would say, after my childhood, my 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.040 time in the field was the place of maximum happiness, 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.520 and then right now, my son, my child is my 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:47.160 depository and repository of maximum happiness. What relationship, real or fictionalized, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:52.520 defines love? You? You know, I see love and I 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:57.360 feel love very frequently. It's not just something that's compartmentalized 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.520 or that I look at one or two people and think, oh, 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:01.920 that's a great example, or that I have a friendship 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:06.040 or a relationship with whoever, and think that that's the paradigm. 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:10.080 I get so much love that I hope I give 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.280 as good as I get. And so it is obvious 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.040 and it's a cliche, but it is absolutely true that 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.040 my son is the human being that I love the most, 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:21.800 to who I love the most in the world. I 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.160 didn't know whether I wanted to have children when I 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.240 was in the field. I was late to motherhood. I 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:29.480 was forty two when he was born. I had done 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.200 everything I loved up until then, my job, my friends, 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.000 the danger, the racing around the world, the doing I 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.080 hoped a little bit of good for the world by 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.760 the stories I told. The love that I felt came 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.720 to me from many of the people who I reported on, 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.000 who just were happy to be, you know, invited to 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.439 talk and tell their stories to the world. I felt 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.160 real love from people when they were in front of 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:54.880 my camp. I'm not talking about leaders now, I'm talking 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.320 about people who I would go and engage with on 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.520 on a daily basis, which I did for most of 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.559 my career. That that was what I did. I talked 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.959 to people about what was going on in whatever crazy 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.280 state of affairs in their particular part of the world. 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.760 And I got a huge amount of love from that, 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.960 and I was very happy and satisfied. And I know 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.640 that I could not have done my work and loved 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.240 it as much and put so much into it had 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.440 I been married or had a kid at that time. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.080 And I consciously delayed that part of my life and 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:24.960 I didn't know whether I would ever have it, And 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.480 I didn't grow up wanting to be a mother. That 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.080 was not what was in my worldview or my list 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.280 of goals to take off. I didn't think i'd be 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.000 a terribly good mother. I don't know why. I don't 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.240 think I analyzed it much. But then when I had 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:40.440 my son now nearly twenty two years ago, on a dime, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.640 it all flipped on a dime. I mean, it changed 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.760 everything in my life, and I am so grateful that 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.320 I have that opportunity to give and to experience that 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.200 kind of luck. But then, you know, you see the 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.320 humbling kind of love that people I don't know, whether 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.679 they're nuns, whether they're angels, whether their doctors, whether their 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.760 neighbors helping neighbors in the middle of a terrible ethnic 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.480 cleansing in a war. The kind of love that strangers 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.400 give to each other, the kind of is just humbling 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:12.000 to behold. The kind of total devotion, the complete strangers 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.640 can give to somebody in need is just an amazing 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.120 thing to behold. And the kind of love that enables 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.400 you to be so brave as to risk your own 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.880 life to, let's say, shelter somebody who's being persecuted and 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.040 has come to you for some kind of help and 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.240 to try to save their lives. That's an amazing thing 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.360 to witness. That must be such an extraordinary thing. I mean, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:34.360 I think of it reflected in the world that we're 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.800 living in right now, where so much, particularly in the US, 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.400 neighbor is against neighbor, or whether it's literally or the 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.160 next state or the south of the north, of the east, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.640 of the west. The idea of being able to recognize 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.960 there's a leveling that humanity will do if you let 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.800 it of kindness, and how love comes out of that. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.000 So seeing it firsthand, it must have been extraordinary in 0:13:56.080 --> 0:14:00.680 Sara Jeva, in Iraq, wherever you were observing that, because 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:02.800 I've seen the opposite as well, you know, and I 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.000 mean Sarajevo, Iraq, but Rwanda and places like that where 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:09.560 neighbors were turned against each other. And the thing that 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:12.720 infuriates me many is that it is not the natural 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.199 state of affairs, even in the United States right now, 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.520 even in our country here in the UK, you know, 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.600 where there's so much division along mostly political lines. This 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:24.600 has all been drummed up by leaders or people who 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.600 call themselves leaders. It's the politics of fear and hate 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.520 and division that have turned people against each other. If 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.200 you can come together in places like Northern Ireland, which 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.680 they did in order to have a peace process, it 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.040 is not perfect, but they were able to do it. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:40.520 If you can do it in South Africa when you've had, 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.480 you know, the majority of the population of South Africa, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:48.520 you know, oppressed by a minority white supremacy organization under apartheid. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.360 And if you can come together like they did and 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.600 like they have done, even though it's not perfect and 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.360 it's not resolved, and it's not over and history hasn't 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.960 stopped just because apartheid felt, it means that we can 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.360 all do it, because all do it. In Sarajevo, I 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.320 watched Serb citizens of the city of Sarajevo, who refused 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.680 to flee, refused to listen to Slovna Velosovitch and Radovan 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.960 Carritage and all those fearmongering, hate mongering, you know, ethnic cleansing, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.200 genocidal maniacs, refused to listen. A very few of them, 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.960 the majority unfortunately did listen. But a few of them 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.880 stayed and sheltered their Muslim neighbors and helped them. And 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.320 it's remarkable. I mean, that's the kind of stuff that 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.520 brings me to tears because it's such a deep love, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.240 so morals, so ethical and so brave. Do you think 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.960 that that humanity, that that level of humanity. Do you 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.680 think that that because you've you've seen it up close 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:41.400 a lot can ultimately triumph if that's the right word 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.520 over the lack of morality in in quotes leadership from 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.880 governments who would stoke that division to serve their own desires. Well, look, 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.200 I hope so. I'm an eternal optimist, and I like 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.920 to think that if I have, you know, thirty odd 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.840 years witnessed the worst of the worst of humanity and 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.520 of bad leadership, ship and malign leadership, if I can 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.080 believe that there is light at the end of the 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.080 tunnel and people and people, and left to their own devices, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.840 they will, you know, show their humanity and their love. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.360 I mean sitting in Rwanda when they had there, it's 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:18.040 called courts. They were sort of unofficial I mean courtrooms, 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.520 but not really. They were in the outdoors, and you 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.720 basically had kind of a version of truth and reconciliation 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.600 where the murderers would come and meet with the victims 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.400 and the families of the victims, and they would talk 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.320 about what they did and they would hopefully apologize, and 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:35.840 then the victims would accept the And I watched that 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.520 when I realized that these are people who started each 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:41.840 other with their bare hands and with clubs and machetes. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.440 You know, eight hundred thousand to a million people dead 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.640 in three months, and here they are sitting in this 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:52.080 you know, local court situation, truth and reconciliation of a 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.560 kind and hugging each other and crying. So that gives 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.840 me hope. Obviously it's possible, It's absolutely possible. But then 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.600 you look at these leaders, even in the democratic world, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:07.520 who we elect, who are elected because of the hatred 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.119 and the division and the other thing that they do 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.320 and that they inculcate, and the fear that they inculcated people, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.679 and then I get very down and depressed, and I 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.240 wonder how that's going to stop, if they can other 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.399 than we can also unify, I mean, people can and 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.399 will be unified. I do think the pensionum is swinging 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.720 incredibly hard at the moment. I've got to believe that 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.480 balance will be addressed. I feel like historically it does. 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.080 It takes a minute there. I agree that you you 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.560 must have seen that over and over again, which I mean, 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:39.760 it's part of why it's so fascinating hearing you talk 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.919 about this, because you've made a career of witnessing and 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.840 reporting literally you know, and disseminating the situations. So it 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.480 makes me hopeful even though were all properly in it 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.960 at the moment in both the UK and the US, 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.720 I mean obviously and elsewhere and elsewhere that I agree 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.160 with you on that, and I would say that witnessing, 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.680 even witnessing, is becoming hard her and harder. Bernard R. Levy, 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.720 the French public philosopher, he has just written a book 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.159 and he's done a documentary and he's entitled it The 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.560 Will to See, The Will to See we have to 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:14.199 sum up now, summon up the energy and the courage 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.040 and the will to go out and see and witness 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.520 and report and make sure these things don't go unnoticed. 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.080 And the lack of will is quite profound right now 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.360 in great swaths of society, not just in political leadership, 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.520 but the lack of will to go out there and 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:33.200 put yourself on the line and do the old fashioned, 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.320 you know, job of being the eyes and ears and 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.280 the feet on the ground so that you can bring 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.000 back these stories. It's very difficult because everybody is now 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.760 sitting in their armchairs siloing in social media, thinking that 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.200 they're living in a real world where they're not there, 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.480 in something that doesn't exist. Twitter is not a place, 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.000 as Dave Chappelle said, you know, it's not a place 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:55.000 that's exactly it. Well, and it's also interesting that we 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.359 are clever monkey brains have created these constructs that we 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:03.880 then assign reality too and meaning too, but they are constructs. 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.639 They don't exist. I mean, if ever, the Matrix and 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.919 the Wakis look more prophetic in what they created in 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.520 those films that then what we're living in now. You know, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.080 I can't I can't think of it because it's true. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.040 We have to be willing to see, and it's very 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.840 easy to not see and to just curate what you 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:23.159 want to see on Instagram, for example, and then an 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.040 algorithm that is also augmenting that exactly. It's fucking terrifying 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.520 as a matter of fact, because then you go to 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:32.879 the great, fantastic, phenomenal David Attenborough and you see what 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.640 he's had the will to see. Yes, and he's still 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.080 out there at ninety five years old. I don't know 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.320 whether you've seen the Green Planet, all your listeners. I 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.760 hope we'll go and see, because that is joy, that 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.880 is love, that is hope, That is phenomenal. He enjoys 0:19:47.920 --> 0:20:01.439 this world, he really does. What is the quality you 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.880 like least about yourself? The inability to recognize my great 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:10.159 good fortune sometimes not always because I usually always recognize it, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.080 but sometimes not taking enough time to take a few 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.840 deep breaths when things are not going well, and to 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.359 sort of semi I mean panic is not quite the 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.920 right word, but to go into that stage of fight 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.760 or flight without really just taking a breath and resetting 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.960 and understanding, you know what I have on my plate, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.360 which is so much good fortune and the other thing 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:36.320 I don't like is that I can be a bit righteous, Minnie, 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:38.840 I'm afraid to say I can be a little bit righteous. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.160 What do you get righteous? Bread by everything? But mostly, 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.679 mostly I like to think about the big things, you know, 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:53.159 about genocide or not genocide, you know, the victim versus 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.200 the aggressor the human rights and all of those kinds 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.399 of things, the things that we should get righteous and 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.960 morally angry and there or motivated to do something about. 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.200 But sometimes I can bring all that righteousness into my 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.479 you know, everyday life and opine as if you know, 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:10.240 I was always right. In fact, I had a great 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.080